I don't have time to really go back and forth about how bad Manziel was last night, but I will just leave this prediction here that he will be out of football this time next year. I hope I'm wrong, but despite his vast improvement from last year, I just don't see him even being a third string quarterback on a bad team...which is why it's so depressing that we're talking about him as a potential future starter. <sigh>
I have no way of actually proving this, but my guess is that there is no way Manziel steps up in the pocket like that one year ago. He also was looking downfield when it would have been very easy to just check it down to that back or run. Progress.
Also, Wynn is not getting enough credit for toasting that guy.
Manziel definitely seems to have his head screwed on right this season, I hope we see a LOT more of plays like this in the future. He got me pumped up!
I have no way of actually proving this, but my guess is that there is no way Manziel steps up in the pocket like that one year ago. He also was looking downfield when it would have been very easy to just check it down to that back or run. Progress.
Also, Wynn is not getting enough credit for toasting that guy.
In watching the play, 1 year ago, where would Manziel have gone? Right where he did.
The only improvement I see is he didn't take off running. The lane was there. So, he has that going for him.
The obvious question is.... How would have Manziel held up against the 1st team Buffalo line. (I believe that all of them have been to the Pro-Bowl at one time or another.
The Cleveland Browns say they feel good about Josh McCown being No. 1 on the quarterback depth chart, but they're not ready to declare him the starter.
"I'm not into guaranteeing or announcing a game-week starter," coach Mike Pettine said Friday in a conference call with the Cleveland media the day after the Browns' 11-10 preseason loss to Buffalo. "That, to me, comes down the road. We're just looking to have a good week of preparation and go out and play Tampa [on Aug. 29]. Let's get better."
As Pettine pointed out, he has made that statement before. He also has done nothing to indicate McCown won't start.
"We feel good about where Johnny [Manziel] is as the No. 2 and where Josh is as the No. 1," Pettine said. "Our thoughts on the quarterback picture are the same as they were going into last night."
But when the door is open even a crack for someone like Manziel, questions and speculation will follow.
Discussion on some talk shows in Cleveland on Friday dealt with Manziel overtaking McCown if things continued the way they went in Thursday's game. McCown was intercepted twice and Manziel threw a touchdown pass against the Bills.
Declaring the opening-day starter would quash all speculation.
"I worry about things that I have control over," Pettine said. "I don't control the questions outside of the building. I'm not going to have my actions be based on that. We have a plan for our quarterback room as we have a plan for all our other positions, and we're going to stick to it."
And the plan for Manziel is "to go out and get better every day," Pettine said. "Learn a new system. For him to improve and be in a position that, when his number is called to be out there and perform for the Cleveland Browns, he can do it to the best of his ability."
Pettine said that McCown had his right ring finger, injured in Thursday's loss, further examined Friday after it was X-rayed Thursday night. The coach said McCown was ready to go and would not miss practice.
--Rish, can you provide examples as to how the Cleveland media is trying to get Farmer fired? I haven't read those articles.
--Dave made a great point when he said that we are not going to win too many games this year, so we might as well see what JM has, that way we know what to do going into next year's draft. I've been saying the same thing for some time.
--Charger mentioned playing against Buffalo's strong d-line. While that is true, I think it's harder to play w/backup offensive players than backup defensive players. And I don't think it's even close.
--Johnny had the look of a winner during the fourth quarter last night. He gave me hope.
I just don't want to toss him into a situation before he is ready.
I said this a few months ago, the best thing the Browns could do was to put a 40 pound flack jacket on him and make him learn to be a QB.
He would have not been my selection. Too risky, but I understand the rationale. He can come out of all of this if he changes/adapts to the game that is being played. I saw him will a team to victory, several times at the college level, but this is not college.
I just don't want to toss him into a situation before he is ready.
I said this a few months ago, the best thing the Browns could do was to put a 40 pound flack jacket on him and make him learn to be a QB.
He would have not been my selection. Too risky, but I understand the rationale. He can come out of all of this if he changes/adapts to the game that is being played. I saw him will a team to victory, several times at the college level, but this is not college.
I want Manziel to sit until he is prepared to win games. I like the way that Pettine is handling him so far. Now, maybe by week 1 he is ready to so. Maybe he is ready to handle enough of what the NFL will throw at him by week 1. However, I want him able to go in and call plays, change plays, handle protections, and so on consistently. We used to call this kind of thing being "prepared to win". This is where I want Manziel to get to before he is thrown into the fire again. I think that last year was a wake up for him.
I can tell, by watching him, that he has been studying and working really hard. I want him to continue this, and not hand him a job again, that he is not truly ready to handle.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I agree with almost everybody that Manziel looks significantly better than he did last year.. but I think the praise being heaped on him for his performance against Buffalo, is in part, being influenced by how bad McCown looked by comparison. He looked better, more composed, more in command.. but we shall see how far he can go with it.
He would have not been my selection. Too risky, but I understand the rationale. He can come out of all of this if he changes/adapts to the game that is being played. I saw him will a team to victory, several times at the college level, but this is not college.
He was the guy I wanted. I kind of definitely regret it now. I liked Bridgewater a lot, but I never thought he'd be anything better than good (still feel that way). Manziel to me, looked special.
But now, I just don't think so. I think he might make it as a backup, but as a starter, I doubt it.
I wanted to draft the guy based on my heart and not my head. As you said, I saw him will his team to win way too many college games. But an NFL Defense isn't a college defense. I hope he continues to progress, but I think we might be looking for another 1st round QB next year. My guess, we go 6-10 or 7-9......
I see a lot of positive articles about his play last night. I really wasn't that impressed. He would have been killed by that 1st team defense of the Bills. Although, probably any QB would have been killed. That Marcell Darius is the real deal. Mixed with Super Mario and Jerry Hughes, and teams are going to be in real trouble.
Our team's got talent, but without a QB it's very hard. Heck, look at the Bills and Texans. They're stacked, but they won't be much better than 9-7. No QB makes things much harder
I agree with almost everybody that Manziel looks significantly better than he did last year.. but I think the praise being heaped on him for his performance against Buffalo, is in part, being influenced by how bad McCown looked by comparison. He looked better, more composed, more in command.. but we shall see how far he can go with it.
The thing about Manziel in the Bills game is how he managed to push the ball down the field so sharply. He made 2 top quality throws to Jennings and especially to Wynn, on the move, and under pressure. It also seemed as though his receivers did not help him put a great deal near the end of the game. He didn't [panic, even when his players played liek "not ready for prime time" players. He made good throws, and he handled the pressure well.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
--Rish, can you provide examples as to how the Cleveland media is trying to get Farmer fired? I haven't read those articles.
--Dave made a great point when he said that we are not going to win too many games this year, so we might as well see what JM has, that way we know what to do going into next year's draft. I've been saying the same thing for some time.
--Charger mentioned playing against Buffalo's strong d-line. While that is true, I think it's harder to play w/backup offensive players than backup defensive players. And I don't think it's even close.
--Johnny had the look of a winner during the fourth quarter last night. He gave me hope.
Thanks for the compliment. As I read the opinions on this board preaching "patience", saying Manziel shouldn't start until he's "ready" and "we have to give him time", I feel my sense of exasperation growing. LOL, I swore out loud the other day when a poster (I forget who) said Manziel would need another TWO YEARS before he'd be ready to start. I backed away before posting a pointed reply, because people think what they think and I don't come here to argue (anymore). But I wonder when it all became about what a player needs before they can contribute, instead of what the team needs him to do? Does the NFL have a "Training Wheels Division"? I'm in my 60's now - there are no guarantees I'll even be here in two years. Like the song lyric says "Things fall apart, its scientific.". In other words, I'd like to see some urgency from the Browns, not to mention their fans, as we approach 20 years without a competent - not great - competent QB. Every year in the NFL there's 5 elite QBs and 10-15 perfectly good QBs. How can this necessary commodity be so elusive to an organization? It defies logic. In the meantime, I don't want to hear any more about being patient from an organization with more 5-year-plans than the former Soviet Union, North Korea, and the people's Republic of China combined. We need to find out this year if Manziel is our guy - no BS - because the 2016 draft has the makings of being one of the better QB drafts in a while. Playing Manziel now solves the issue. If he does well, great - you found your QB. If not, you'll be in a great position to try again with one of the QBs coming out next year.
Anyway, didn't mean to write War and Peace, but the endless amount of patience around here has been grinding on me a bit.
He would have not been my selection. Too risky, but I understand the rationale. He can come out of all of this if he changes/adapts to the game that is being played. I saw him will a team to victory, several times at the college level, but this is not college.
He was the guy I wanted. I kind of definitely regret it now. I liked Bridgewater a lot, but I never thought he'd be anything better than good (still feel that way). Manziel to me, looked special.
But now, I just don't think so. I think he might make it as a backup, but as a starter, I doubt it.
I wanted to draft the guy based on my heart and not my head. As you said, I saw him will his team to win way too many college games. But an NFL Defense isn't a college defense. I hope he continues to progress, but I think we might be looking for another 1st round QB next year. My guess, we go 6-10 or 7-9......
I see a lot of positive articles about his play last night. I really wasn't that impressed. He would have been killed by that 1st team defense of the Bills. Although, probably any QB would have been killed. That Marcell Darius is the real deal. Mixed with Super Mario and Jerry Hughes, and teams are going to be in real trouble.
Our team's got talent, but without a QB it's very hard. Heck, look at the Bills and Texans. They're stacked, but they won't be much better than 9-7. No QB makes things much harder
IMHO he looks like a rookie at mid season. The game is just starting to take shape for him but he isnt there quiet yet if that makes sense. Some of the things he did was very impressive but there is a couple times where I thought he was looking to get rid of the ball to quickly. Its a learning process and he needs reps.
I just dont know how much more he is gonna learn watching and not doing. If he isnt the starter he just isnt gonna get any reps other than scout team. We really need to see how he looks behind the first team Ol going against a first team D.
I look at Manziel and definitely see improvement but my overall impression is that he will never amount to anything more than a backup Qb.
I look at his throws and the ball seems to float at the end. Just doesn't have that zip. So while he will look good in preseason vs the 2nd and 3rd team defenses, many of those completions will get broken up by 1st team Db's and there will be a lot of interceptions. JMO
A lot of posters want to see Manziel play so that we know what we have for the draft next year. Honestly, I would too. Perhaps I am wrong about my assessment of him. But I don't think our coaches need to play him to make that evaluation. I think they already have a pretty good idea of what he is and what he is capable of. Does anybody believe that if Manziel cannot take the Qb job away from McCown by season end that he will prevent us from a Qb in the 1st round next year (should we deem someone worthy)?
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
He has an above average arm. Last year they had him trying to muscle his throws and he just lost his accuracy and looked like a robot. I see him putting much greater touch on his passes. He isnt trying to be Marino but more of a Drew Brees. He can gun it when he needs to.
IMHO the big hurdle is just him coming from the spread. it makes for ignorant qbs. Until Aaron Rodgers, I didnt think it was possible for a spread QB to succeed in the NFL. Lets not forget, he should be in his senior year in college right now. He has a lot of physical and mental growing to do.
Aaron Rodgers was in it for a few years. Phillip Rivers a couple. Carson Palmer spent a year there. Dante Culpepper, Jake Delhomme, Tony Romo, Tom Brady.
The worst thing you can do to a QB is to put him in the lineup when he is over his head. Especially a small QB like JF. There are plenty of guys that went straight into a starters role and did fine. There are other guys that needed the time. It's one of the toughest decisions a coach makes as to when that point is.
It's not something you or I can really see watching a game either without knowing the playbook and the pre-snap reads and check downs and hot routes. Don't fear though. Haslam will have Farmer texting "Put Johnny in!" before you know it.
Agreed, Manziel is growing and if he continues to make steady progress I think he will be starting by midseason. We can't make the same mistakes we've made in the past and rush him. Let's face it, does anybody on this board really believe we are going too the playoff's? This is another season to continue building for the future. If all goes well we can talk playoff's next year.
I look at Manziel and definitely see improvement but... I look at his throws and the ball seems to float at the end. Just doesn't have that zip. So while he will look good in preseason vs the 2nd and 3rd team defenses, many of those completions will get broken up by 1st team Db's and there will be a lot of interceptions. JMO
Good points Jester. Here's a couple examples I noticed on Thursday night both occurred on the Td drive.
The improvement: 2nd down and 3. Johnny comes up to the line and reads the zone pre-snap calling for an adjustment. Jennings from the slot runs right into the open zone and Johnny starts to make the throw. Instead of sitting down in the zone for an easy first down grab Jennings runs right through it, Johnny is forced to pull the ball down. After the play Johnny looks at Jennings and points to his eyes.
What won't work against 1st stringers: Next play 3rd and 3. Parmele makes an Ole block and his man comes free. Johnny throws to Jennings running an out from the slot. Awesome, he got the ball off with a man bearing down on him to keep the chains movin'. I watch again and when he throws he makes a jump pass off his back foot and hits the receiver on the sideline with a slow duck on his back shoulder. Luckily the 3rd string DB is helplessly flailing, but dang if that's against a 1st string DB I think that would be a pick 6 the majority of the time.
Agreed, Manziel is growing and if he continues to make steady progress I think he will be starting by midseason. We can't make the same mistakes we've made in the past and rush him. Let's face it, does anybody on this board really believe we are going too the playoff's? This is another season to continue building for the future. If all goes well we can talk playoff's next year.
I think we will be fighting for a playoff spot - I think we need a lot of things to fall into place, but I believe that my hope will carry through the first half of the season ... and from there injuries, player progression, coaching progression (Pettine game day and Flip play calling) will determine how we finish the season.
my 2 cents.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I think right now we are still trying to figure out what we have. I dont think our D coaches know what we have with the talent over there. On O johnny just has to keep doing his thing and he will start the season. Scrimmage johnny was better, Skins McCown was damn near perfect. bills Johnny was vastly superior. 3rd game i want to see Johnny get some times with this 1st OL and against 1st team defense.
Manziel could rest Monday as precautionary measure
With Tuesday’s day off looming and an eye on Saturday’s preseason trip to Tampa Bay, Browns quarterback Johnny Manziel could receive an extra day’s rest Monday.
Manziel cut off his throwing near the end of Sunday’s practice because of soreness in his throwing elbow. Veteran Thaddeus Lewis took the remaining snaps with the second-team offense.
“I wouldn’t be surprised tomorrow if we shut him down,” Browns coach Mike Pettine said. “Just depends on how it feels.”
Manziel had his throwing limited at a practice earlier this month but returned the next day and wasn’t limited in the Browns’ two preseason games. Pettine said he wasn’t concerned Manziel was dealing with a long-term issue.
Pettine said earlier in the week the Browns likely did not need to add another arm to the group in the wake of Shaw’s injury because of how close the regular season was. If Manziel doesn’t practice Monday, the Browns will have two quarterbacks available in starter Josh McCown and Lewis.
“I think we are OK,” Pettine said last week. “The volume won’t be as much as it was early in camp. I think if this had happened (preseason) Week 1, we would have looked to add an arm. I just don’t think we are there at this point.”
Through two preseason games, Manziel is 17-of-29 for 160 yards and a touchdown.
Im no DR.. but been in lots of situations... And just saying.. Elbow pain could be the result of a Shoulder issue. I really have my doubts with trainers in the NFL any more... If it cant be cured by a needle then its a mystery..
There's a couple posters on here that think the same as i do..probably more than a couple.
Get back to stretching,, yoga ..Tai Chi ..Just simple massage.. Idk.. its a tough sport..i'm glad I don't play it..
“I think we are OK,” Pettine said last week. “The volume won’t be as much as it was early in camp. I think if this had happened (preseason) Week 1, we would have looked to add an arm. I just don’t think we are there at this point.”
If it's not a result of being injured due to a hit and strictly a result linked to the number of repetitions, resting the arm should help.
As Pet pointed out, the number of reps will be declining in the weeks ahead. Hopefully the elbow will respond to rest..but it is something the Browns need to keep an eye on.
“I think we are OK,” Pettine said last week. “The volume won’t be as much as it was early in camp. I think if this had happened (preseason) Week 1, we would have looked to add an arm. I just don’t think we are there at this point.”
If it's not a result of being injured due to a hit and strictly a result linked to the number of repetitions, resting the arm should help.
As Pet pointed out, the number of reps will be declining in the weeks ahead. Hopefully the elbow will respond to rest..but it is something the Browns need to keep an eye on.
I agree Mac. At this point those guys have been throwing maybe a few hundred balls a day. At this point those numbers will tail off a great deal. Once we get in to the season, the QBs probably don't throw 150 balls all week. A few light practices, install the dozen or so plays you add to the gameplan for the week...fairly light duty.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Strengths: Manziel's athleticism and improvisational skills create problems for opposing defenses when he extends plays. He is shifty enough to evade rushers in the pocket, yet also displays the running skills to pick up first downs on impromptu scrambles. Most importantly, Manziel shows the ability to make pinpoint throws on the move, as evidenced by his 37-yard pass to Darius Jennings on a bootleg play to his left.
Weaknesses: Manziel remains a work in progress as a pocket passer. Although he delivered the ball on time for most of the game against Buffalo on Thursday, he is still working on tying his feet to his eyes on the pocket. If Manziel can keep his feet and eyes in sync within the pocket, he will consistently deliver accurate balls to his receivers on the perimeter. In addition, Manziel needs to do a better job identifying blitz pressure and hot reads at the line. The Bills threw a lot of different looks at the second-year pro, and he wasn't always on the same page as his receivers. (While some fault could lie with the receiving corps, it is important for the quarterback to make sure his perimeter players understand which guy is the first look against pressure.)
What he needs to work on: Despite making significant growth as a passer this preseason, Manziel still needs to improve his management skills and situational awareness. He must demonstrate a keen understanding of down and distance, time and score, and make sound decisions with the ball based on circumstances. Manziel has shown better management skills to this point, but he has to be consistent with his approach to earn the trust of the Browns' coaching staff.
Wins and losses don't count in the NFL preseason -- but individual performances sure do. After each week's slate of preseason action, Bucky Brooks will shine the spotlight on one notable player from each team in the league, grading that player's performance and providing a snapshot of how he's doing in this critical dress-rehearsal phase of the 2015 campaign. The performance grading scale is as follows:
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