DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Farmer

I think you can make a list of an equal number of good things he has done. They may not all carry the same weight, but he's done a lot of good too.

The problem is when you are a cellar dweller and have no QB, every bad thing gets magnified.

Ultimately it's Farmer's job to find the QB. I'm not dismissing that. And if Teddy or Carr take off this year, I think people's heads will explode. And then people could say that Farmer got it wrong and set us back. But I'd just like to give him more time to find the QB. I think getting rid of him and Pettine will do more harm than good toward the overall goal of becoming consistently good.

People are holding these guys to way too high of a standard because everyone is sick and tired of losing. But all change is going to do is continue those losing ways, IMO.

I will say this though...I really, really agree with BTTB on this one ... we should have traded for Bradford. I think that was a missed opportunity.

There hasn't been a roster that the Browns have put together going back 5 to 8 years that you haven't LOVED.
I'm all for optimism and being positive when its warranted.
But I look at this roster and its still the least talented in the AFC North.

He has made good moves. I will name some of them:

--Drafted Bitonio in the second.

--Too early to really say, but I like the Shelton pick.

--Brought in Dansby.

--Replaced Ward w/Whit.

--Took a chance on Crow. Crow was my sleeper guy two years ago. I do worry about the character thing though, especially in light of all the character concerns we have, but as of right now..........very good move.

--K. Williams was a good find.

--Kirskey was a decent pick.

I am balanced. It bothers me when guys either act like all the moves are good or bad. I really don't see guys trying to be balanced. The positive guys are just a lot more derogatory to other posters than the negative guys, thus they hear it more from me. I mean this.........there is no place for calling posters moronic, whiners, and dumb and then telling them to STFU because you don't agree w/their opinions, especially considering most of those so-called "opinions" were facts. I despise that type of posting. We have too many guys on here that resort to that type of posting.

I know--and appreciate--that you really want for us to have continuity. I have ALWAYS preached that. I was ripping Butch before anyone on here, but I was his last supporter. Same w/Mangini. I believe in continuity. However, I also believe in honest dialogue and evaluations. Not sure why that intimidates so many people to the point where they need to ridicule other posters????

Right now, Rish........I think that Farmer has done some good and some bad. And if it is close, I say keep him because continuity is important. But, I think his mistakes outweigh his hits. It's just that his mistakes are so big. Getting a guy like K. Williams is nice, but missing on two first round picks is really hard to overcome, especially considering we could have had Teddy and Beckham Jr. w/those two picks.

I also think replacing the GM isn't as big of a deal to the "team" as replacing the coaching staff.

Hey Rishuz... Just rambling as always... With Farmer I still go back to when Mack broke his leg and Greco was moved over to center and Paul McQuistan stepped in at guard.... The Browns didn't miss a beat on the drive scoring eight plays later on an 8-yard run by Tate. It seemed like a good fit at the time..

Then Pet says this..." he'll huddle with general manager Ray Farmer to determine how to proceed. “We still have some depth there and we do have Nick McDonald whose close to coming off of (Non-Football Injury) so I’m going to get with Ray Farmer and I’m sure that’s something that we’re going to discuss tomorrow.”

Who actually was responsible for the call to bring in McDonald ? Is that a Farmer call ? I would think that Moeller would have had a voice in that decision ..which he may have...

Neither way...the results following were questionable...It's a fine line being supportive to giving time and chances without being considered a homer or a negative nad.

What I have heard many times over... is that this team has so much talent that it will make tuff getting to a 53 man roster...I don't guys.. Got to see what the season brings...

Don't need a lecture, thanks.
A person doesn't have to actually call somebody a name to be condescending, to be insulting. Surely you understand that concept?

See what I mean?? Who needs name-calling when being condescending is enough?

That was for Vers, not bonefish

How was I being condescending?

And it wasn't a lecture. It was something I feel strongly about. We should be able to discuss topics w/out resorting to childish name calling.

"Supercilious"?

Man, I have a pretty darn good vocabulary, but I admit that I had to look this one up.

I am going to have to remember it for later use. That's a good word for a message board.

I get frustrated when I try to put in a football question post and the next several posts are about individuals dislikes for one another... My post gets over looked and I don't get an answer that would benefit me learning something..very irritating..

At times I feel you get more responds by posting insults than actual meaningful football questions..

Makes me wonder just how many on here are actually knowledgeable...

Having your view on a player and expressing what he should be or shouldn't be is just an opinion... getting hard cold facts on certain topics is what I like to see..

I guess that's why I don't post a lot of real football talk... I really need to thank no-logo for something he once said to me.. anyway...It's still a good place to visit..No matter how you look at it ..in some way your leaving a message

Yeah, I definitely see why you would feel that way. I hate having to wade through the garbage sometimes as well. I sometimes try to use humor to defuse some of it, or to vent ..... though maybe I shouldn't add to the pile.

This is how I took the comments when I read them.... not a jab at any particular poster, but more of a general remark. I was surprised to come back here and find that others took it a different way. Message boards can be tricky mediums to negotiate. Talk is a lot easier across a table.

Mostly, I was agreeing about giving these players more time before labeling them as busts... as it's also my general opinion about them as well.

I'd agree those were good moves. I would add another barring an unforeseen event. Hartline. I think he's going to be a good player for us. Seems like he's got some very good hands. At least so far. We shall see. Farmer has done some good things. But I'm not going to pretend he's not pulled some real bonehead moves as well.... He could win me over. But not if he keeps doing dumb things. He has to wake the hell up and start hitting some homeruns. And he better pray Flip is a great OC and our offense plays well this year. His fault we lost Shanahan..... That I won't soon forget. Unless our offense kicks some serious ass If Flip is a flop it won't look good for Farmer.....

`The pick was praised by Mayock and others at the time.`

i remember watching a sports network and they said of gilbert....oh the 3rd best corner..well he has the size that seattle has

IN the real world, the owner of the company has final say.

I'm sorry you still can't read. I didn't call anyone moronic or dumb or tell anyone to STFU. So please stop waiving this like your version of a battle flag.



It's not what is being said, it is the continual and repetitive whining and complaining while the jury is still out. It gets old.



I have no problem with this, and in fact agree with some of it. I don't understand your insistence on arguing facts not in evidence, as they say.



Again, your lack of reading comprehension negates your silly, whinny argument.



Agreed. That doesn't mean the light won't come on at some point. It doesn't mean that expectation may be unreasonable since they need to be taken case to case. You're also ignoring the fact that CBs can take longer to develop. You're also ignoring the fact that he hasn't had ample opportunity to show his development THIS YEAR. You're all just pissing and moaning about a failed first round pick, but none of you know that yet. It's simply ridiculous to take that posture at this point in time. Ridiculous!



I've stated as much several times. I wanted Carr, would have been happy with Teddy and would have been okay with Jimmy, though would have taken Manziel over Jimmy. But Carr and Teddy and Jimmy G aren't our QBs, are they? No. And they never will be. So we're stuck with waiting and seeing. Pissing and moaning has been done to death. I'm sick of it. That's my opinion, deal with it.



So it didn't work out. Boo-freakin'-hoo. We gave up a 4th and got a 7th for a 6th for a questionable, immature, but potentially very productive back. Then moved on when he didn't fit the model they're trying to build on. Better than keeping him around and letting it fester. Was it a good pick? Obviously not. Was it handled correctly when they figured it out? Absolutely. Moving on...



Not every pick works out. This guy got beat out by better talent, also selected by Farmer. Yet you chose to ignore that fact. Cherry picking facts to bolster arguments doesn't make an argument stronger. How about these facts: Second-team All-Pac-12 and Biletnikoff Award semifinalist (nation's top wide receiver). Tied for Pac-12 lead with school-record 106 receptions. Invited to 2015 Senior Bowl. Set school single-season record with 1,483 receiving yards. Had two games with more than 252 yards receiving. Seven TDs in 2013. First-team All-American receiver in 2012 at Sierra Community College in California before transferring to Washington State. So obviously Farmer and his scouts saw something in the 4th rounder. You, sitting on your couch, crying about the spilled milk does nothing to enhance this board. In my humble opinion. Which I am entitled to. Correct?



Do you know if it will pay off? Yes or no? No? That's right. So what in the hell is your point?



Stupid move.



That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Mine is that I'm glad Shanahan is gone. Mine is that he didn't want to be here. That he was looking for his first opportunity to leave. That he had a tendency to alienate people. And that he was an entitled, over rated, mediocre coach. Using Shanahan's departure as an indictment against Farmer is simply reaching for fodder. In my view, him leaving makes the team, coaching staff and organization better as a whole. I don't credit Farmer with the win on this one, I just call it damn good luck.



As I stated, head scratcher, but the Browns obviously value him very highly, wanted to protect him and also clear a roster spot. You or I may not agree with the decision, but it was Farmer's to make. If you can't accept that, too bad, IMHO. Put it in the negative column if you want, but you have yet to show negative impact. You're simply saying it was a bad move, which you don't really know yet.



See above. And again, I'm sorry your reading comprehension is so poor you can't retain the message that I did not call anyone any names, nor tell anyone to STFU. But that's on you, not me.



I agree that a variety of opinion is a very positive thing. I'm also of the opinion that repetitive, non-stop and exaggerated whining is both moronic and dumb. And useless, and annoying, and counterproductive. But that's just my opinion. Which I am entitled to. So deal with it.



Read my responses. See how you tend to skew the facts to suit your arguments, and how your condescending, self-righteous approach is supercilious?

The coaching staff thought McDonald had a good future.

That's how I perceived it, too. I also was surprised people took offence.

jc

Some fun facts about Farmer's drafts and the Browns depth chart:

- Farmer's 13 picks in the top 4 rounds amount to 1.5 starters (Shelton + 0.5 Kirksey)

- only 8 of 22 starters were drafted by the Browns, 4 of them on the OL and I counted Kirksey and FB Johnson as full starters. Sad.

- of the other 14 starters, 12 were FA pickups and 2 UDFA

- roster got significantly older since Farmer took over and signed the 30+ likes of Dansby, Whitner, T.Williams, Starks, McCown, Bowe, A. Lee

What are we building again?

Bitonio?

My bad, you're right. That makes it 2.5 starters out of 13 top 4 round picks.

It's still incredibly frustrating watching Farmer make draft decisions. He traded up for West with much better RBs still on the board and some guy named Martavis Bryant, not that we needed a WR.
Then, he takes another project with Desir, when the roster screamed for WR and OL depth. Corey Linsley instead, and he had many fans around here, so t's not hindsight, could have saved him from burning a 1st on Cam Erving.

Farmer has found some value here and there, but he burnt much more with the majority of his selections.

who job is it to get the most out of a player. people can like pettine all they want but he doesnt appear to get the most out of young talented draft picks.

he for some reason cannot deal with any player that has the least bit of attitude problems and most true physical freaks comming out of collage have that problem. the late round and UDFAs know they have to work to stay on the roster.

another reason why we are bringing in so many vets.

JMO ofcourse.

" .
people can like pettine all they want but he doesnt appear to get the most out of young talented draft picks.

he for some reason cannot deal with any player that has the least bit of attitude problems and most true physical freaks comming out of collage have that problem. the late round and UDFAs know they have to work to stay on the roster.

another reason why we are bringing in so many vets."
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Can you be more specific?

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"but he doesnt appear to get the most out of young talented draft picks."
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"another reason why we are bringing in so many vets. "
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So what you are saying is: Farmer is bringing in vets because Pettine can't deal with players who have a bad attitude?

It was my understanding that when you draft players; the reasons behind drafting them are:

- they have talent
- a solid work ethic
- are people with unquestioned character
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Scouting 101. Everyone in the NFL has talent. Draft players who want it bad.

Draft players who work hard.

Draft high character guys. Who love football.

i am saying it could very well be a two way street. i find it hard to believe that all these high round draft pick are total nuts.



yea. and one would think that the higher the draft pick the more of a athletic freak they would be than the later rounds. and since they got through collage more on being a athletic freak that they would have a sense of entitlement that a head coach would have to deal with. well how do you think pettine has been doing in that?

"yea. and one would think that the higher the draft pick the more of a athletic freak they would be than the later rounds. and since they got through collage more on being a athletic freak that they would have a sense of entitlement that a head coach would have to deal with. well how do you think pettine has been doing in that?"
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That is a gross generalization.

Every player is a separate case.

Pettine performed wonders last year to win 7 games with roster he had to work with.

ok. but no one is going to convince me that have 2 first round picks and a third round pick that half ass it in practice all last year, always late for practice, has zero to do with the head coach. it is just my opinion that pettine is at least partly to blame.

So you want him fired?

Oh let's be clear. Anyone looking at your post knew your intent. And I highly doubt anyone's feelings were hurt. Some of us just have the ability to throw the same type of crap back at you. And we will.

Oddly enough, we have one poster that feels he dictates the board. He feels he can do as he wants, but if it is returned at him, he complains.

Weird, isn't it?

shouldnt be picking on vambo!!!!

Ooooo!

I really try not to look at posters on an individual basis. I'm a lot like Tab from the way he describes himself. I say what I feel when needed to get it off my chest and then move on.

In the past, I've actually tried to give posters advice to help them protect themselves and their families for it only to have been taken as some type of threat. So I'm quite familiar with how things can be taken the wrong way on a message board. I really don't let things like that bother me.

If I actually broke down my thought process about every poster, I could come up with many who I disagree with their posting style or their opinions. To me it's not an issue of a single poster. But I also don't plan to agree with nor dissuade others who feel differently than myself.

We've both posted on here and never really had a major disagreement. I'd say the likelihood of that continuing is a pretty good bet. But there will be times that we will disagree and butt heads. This is just one of those times. No big deal.

No sweat, Pit. Seriously. Who doesn't enjoy a good dust up once in a while?

Legitimate concerns. I also have an issue with his attitude towards WR's. But I believe he is learning and growing as a GM. I think this year's draft was largely an attempt at "getting it right".

I don't fault him for the Mayle pick, and I believe that were we not so deep in that squad, he'd have made the team, and if Mayle wasn't so miffed about not making it, he'd be on the PS. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, there are performance points to back the pick, it just didn't work out. Same with the West pick. Sad it didn't work out, but it very well could have.

Playmakers on offense? I count Benji, Hartline, Crow, Hawk, Barnidge and Gabriel as playmakers. Hoping TP develops into one. Ditto Bibbs.

Do I think Farmer is perfect? By no means. My biggest issue with him is his hubris, his ego. He needs to get that in check. But I do believe that working with Pettine will help temper that, and I hope that seeing the play on the field, along with having to live with his failings will help guide him toward smarter scouting and wiser draft decisions.

Overall, I like him, and feel he can be good. It's unfortunate that he's having such a rocky start, but I do believe he will improve as a GM.

JMHO