DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... California lawmakers approve right-to-die legislation

I would love to hear a rationality-based argument as to why the government should ban same sex marriage or euthanasia.

I would love to hear a rationality-based argument as to why the government should ban same sex marriage or euthanasia.

Much of the controversy today is not precisely about religious freedom but is instead over matters of fact and truth. Abortion, homosexuality, genetic experimentation, and euthanasia are not primarily “religious” issues but rational ones.

Individual moral issues. Individual because we are American.

On these life issues, not a few religions have come to embrace what are, in effect, irrational “rights” that contradict reason. Therefore, “religious freedom” is really, at bottom, a philosophical and political issue because it pertains to what a reasonable politics can rightly allow.

I understand why evangelical fundamentalist believe civil rights may be "irrational rights”
He's stating that when considering the average American's civil rights political and philosophical views are more relevant. I agree.


Though religious freedom, in its American form, was almost unique in the world when it was first established at the nation’s founding, this liberty had been almost taken for granted in this country until recently. Now its erosion is suddenly well-advanced.

Let's see the facts he provides to support his opinion.

Its very meaning is in doubt. The belated realization of this change in understanding of religious liberty has alerted some few, perhaps too few, to the seriousness of the issue. Indeed, the change extends beyond American borders since our government often seeks to require its new understanding of religious liberty on others as a requirement of any aid or help.

It would be helpful if he better explained what, "our government often seeks to require its new understanding of religious liberty on others as a requirement of any aid or help" looks like with an example.

Religious liberty is still, however, the reason why many believers leave their country of origin in search of another where their beliefs are welcome. This emigration today is especially from Muslim countries, where “religious liberty” means, basically, that everyone should be Muslim, or if not, agree to second-class citizenship. Any valid theory of religious liberty would allow major religions to hold that its position is true, provided it was not imposed by force or coerced in some other way.

The irony is him talking about Muslim countries. Those countries practice the same religious freedom that fundamentalists want to establish in America.

I'm still waiting for his facts.


Every January 16 since 1996, the American president has issued a proclamation setting aside that day as Religious Freedom Day. The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom keeps extensive files on religious freedom in most countries. While most declarations retain the phrase “religious freedom,” it has been noted that around 2010, the phrase, “freedom of worship,” rather than “freedom of religion” sometimes appeared.

Facts!!!, but what does this mean about religious freedom in America?

If we understand “freedom of religion” to mean “freedom of worship,” does it make any difference? Small errors in the beginning lead to huge errors in the end, as Aristotle long ago remarked. Freedom of worship, at least in idea, seems to be designed to distinguish or separate religious freedom from freedom to worship. Even when the term “freedom of religion” is used, many of the actions of the current U.S. government, such as those forcing religious believers to support government programs contrary to their faith, indicate that “freedom of worship” is meant.

What things has the government forced religious believers to support? Do you support gay marriage? No. Would not recognizing the rights of all American citizens be an attack on your religion? No. It makes you unAmerican.

The distinction thus conveniently backs up the Obama administration’s moves to place all health, education, and charitable organizations under the umbrella of state control.

All health, education, and charitable organizations may face regulations, but that hardly means they're state run.
Besides, WTH does this have to do with religion? The connection between beliefs and religion has been part of the fundamentalists' effort to redefine reality.

Consequently, I am “free” to believe or say what I want within the walls of a church or place of worship. This view implicitly takes all religious people out of the public realm if their religious or philosophical view is contrary to that of the state.

If he believes a house of worship is the only place to state his beliefs then he's struggling with reality and a definite participant in the effort to claim that religion is under attack.

Still no relevant facts either.

This position is the modern version of the political views developed by Marsilius of Padua and Thomas Hobbes. Religion must be solely internal with no public effects.

Sad that he denies truth. I thought religion was all about truth.

The state controls all external actions. This exercise of control is what the change in wording was designed to accomplish.The states denies the agenda of bigotry and that's it. You are entirely free to practice your religion. You are not free to practice bigotry.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/obamas-right-to-worship-ushers-in-new-state-religion

BTW, can you name anything that has been forced on you by the government that has limited your right to worship?

I am not asking for the right to worship, I want religious
freedom as promised in our Constitution and I want the
Government to stop breaking this law...

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

I want religious
freedom as promised in our Constitution and I want the
Government to stop breaking this law...

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Why do you continue forcing your beliefs on others?

What belief am I forcing onto others?

You and the others keep on taking your Governments side on these issues, forcing your and it's belief on others. You cry when others protest these actions by complaining they are forcing
their beliefs on you but you are doing the exact same thing.

I am not asking for the right to worship, I want religious freedom as promised in our Constitution and I want the
Government to stop breaking this law...

You and the others keep on taking your Governments side on these issues, forcing your and it's belief on others. You cry when others protest these actions by complaining they are forcing
their beliefs on you but you are doing the exact same thing.

Give one factual example of a belief you've been forced to no longer hold or even a form religious worship you've been denied.

I just love Passive/agressiveness.

And the Hamma falls...

Another Nation comes to your Government and asks for aid. Your Government (which you always support) tells them they must be more diligent by improving their Human Rights policies!

Then another Nation asks to begin relations with the United
States and your Government (which you always support) tells
them they must begin to treat their women better, giving them
more rights!

Yet another Nation is told they must become more of a Democracy and their treatment of Gays does not meet our wishes!

STOP FORCING YOUR BELIEFS ON TO OTHERS!!!

Lets just be thankful that homosexual intolerance in this country is limited to arguing over baking a cake or pitching a fit over marriage certs. SSM acceptance has almost doubled in 5 years and is climbing. I'm not sure what mental gymnastics some Americans will make who think the Bible is literally true (over 50%) but that will soon not be an issue.

I see my clerk lady put in another full day on your dime. Life is good.

Of course I can but it will only fall on deaf ears as the list did
in previous threads.

I see my clerk lady put in another full day on your dime. Life is good.

dont forget oral sex

uhhh, you realize it's your religious leaders breaking that left and right, don't you?

My opinion is this group will always seek ways to discriminate no matter how many times the Bible flips in their hands. They will always attempt to pass laws to make their discrimination legal and cry victim when no one agrees with them.

What troubles me is the fundamentalist belief that being required to obey a law that prevents bigotry is an attack on their beliefs.

I am curious ..... how are "religious leaders" violating the 1st Amendment of the Constitution?

Actually, I was curious as to why Swish felt that way. He was the one I quoted.

I know.

I assumed it was part of the conversation happening with you, 40, swish, gage and I.

If you could provide some real evidence of oppression of Christians you'd be helping 40 out.

Internationally, Christians are being martyred in record numbers, especially in the Muslim world.(although North Korea certainly ranks up there too)

In the US, Christians are definitely oppressed, but in different, more subtle ways. Christians are told that going to worship is fine, but to "leave all that stuff at church". We are told that we have the freedom of religion, when it is actually freedom of religious expression. We have atheists suing to remove Christian symbols, by carefully targeting institutions that they know do not have enough money to defend themselves. Christmas and Easter face persecution, in that some try to completely remove the religious significance, and even any mention whatsoever of a religious connection, from these holidays. Christians are told to leave their religious beliefs at the door, because they have no right to have their local beliefs as part of public discourse and law. while others who do not have a religious view are free to apply their morality as they see fit. Christians who have expressed a Christian viewpoint have been called haters, and have lost jobs as a result.

You cannot honestly tell me, with a straight face, that you have not seen these things for yourself.

Anyway, I hope that starts to answer your question. I hope that Swish will answer mine when he sees this thread again.

I'm not sure if your pastor is/was like this, but I was reminded many times (pretty much every sermon) that Christians are a minority and that Christians need to be steadfast against the secular world trying to push them away from the faith. Yet Christians make up 71% of all Americans. That's an overwhelming margin. It's a straight up lie for him to claim that Christians are a minority in America.

Look around the world today.

Could it be that 71% of Americans identify as Christians, even though only 37% attend church regularly, and that the 37% is what your pastor was referring to?

as you pointed out, in this country there are a lot who identify as Christian but many don't attend church or even make an attempt to live a Christian life, could have meant that..

Slamming on the brakes. Are you saying you have to attend Church to be a Christian?

Slamming on the brakes. Are you saying you have to attend Church to be a Christian?

HAVE to? No. But it's a good thing. JMO.

In your job, do you attend any training or continuing ed functions? If you do, why? If you don't, the guy that does is beating you.

It's a good thing if your Church is teaching things you believe in. If your Church is preaching that being black is wrong, being gay is wrong, being divorced 5 times is right, being forgiving is wrong, loving your neighbor is wrong then RUN. Your Church sucks

In the US, Christians are definitely oppressed, but in different, more subtle ways. Christians are told that going to worship is fine, but to "leave all that stuff at church". We are told that we have the freedom of religion, when it is actually freedom of religious expression. We have atheists suing to remove Christian symbols, by carefully targeting institutions that they know do not have enough money to defend themselves. Christmas and Easter face persecution, in that some try to completely remove the religious significance, and even any mention whatsoever of a religious connection, from these holidays. Christians are told to leave their religious beliefs at the door, because they have no right to have their local beliefs as part of public discourse and law. while others who do not have a religious view are free to apply their morality as they see fit. Christians who have expressed a Christian viewpoint have been called haters, and have lost jobs as a result.