Wasn't sure where to put this ... the other hogan thread is long so i figured I'd start a new one and lead with this update ....

DeShone Kizer - QB - Browns

Browns coach Hue Jackson thinks benching DeShone Kizer "will benefit" the young quarterback.

"If that is the decision that we make," Jackson said before clearly showing he has already made his decision. "I think it will benefit him tremendously because he would get a chance to get a breather and take a look at it from a different lens and not from that pressure." It is not official, but it certainly sounds like Kevin Hogan will get the start this week.

Source: Akron Beacon-Journal Oct 10 - 10:32 AM

Thank god he's not doing it cause he thinks it will hurt him ... i like that about Hue .... *L*

I wrote this to post on the other thread but when I went to post it, the thread had already been locked. It was before I knew Hue named Hogan the starter so I'll just post it here................

While I do believe that Browns fans have a bad habit of falling in love with the back up QB.... until they become the starter. Would people like a list? lol And while I'd like to side with continuing to start Kizer, I just can't.

First of all, I don't believe Hogan is the answer. Every time I see his initials on here, KH, it makes me think of Kelly Holcomb and I think the results will be no better than that.

Having said all of that, I can't see any excuse or reason not to give him his shot. I believe he's earned it in the brief stints we've seen him play.

At this time, I have to go with what I've always believed and promoted. You start the players that give you the best chance to win. At this time that QB would be Kevin Hogan. At least until we see evidence that indicates otherwise.

I believe that evidence will come to the forefront. I believe opposing D's will figure him out quickly. But at this moment, he gives us the best chance to win and that is the player you should start.

Hue has said many times that he’s gonna go with whoever gives us the best chance to win.

Kept his word.

https://cle.247sports.com/Gallery/Cleveland-Browns-depth-chart-Houston-Texans-107324842

Kizer is listed as the starter here.

Hue's like the Trumpster .... he says a lot of things that end up not being true ... *LOL* ....

OCD Hue ain't made it official yet ... or maybe the FO didn't approve the chit (military flashback .. *LOL*) yet ...

I take that with a grain of salt, no way Britt, Crow, etc give us the best chance to win when Duke and just about every other rec is playing better.

Duke is playing Swiss Army knife, which is why crow continues to get the bulk of carries. Also he’s more durable than duke.

Britt is trash, but he was still the best WR we had, especially with Coleman breaking his hand.

We are lacking talent. We have trash players backing up trash starters. That’s how it is on quite a few positions.

I actually thought I read somewhere where Hue said he would stick with Kizer through the bumpy road (ala Peyton Manning).


Although we are not going to win the super bowl, I think Kizer is hurting our chances at a win.

I'd rather Hue say that to the young man than sugar coat it. I hear how he's a straight forward coach, well tell him point blank you've sucked, you're still my guy and we'll get you there but you're taking this game off.

I get that about Duke, but I still think he should get more touches than Crow. He is a better runner even if hes just the "shifty" guy. Crow gets tacked by a wet fart, and I am tired watching him run in the backs of our lineman to hop backwards 2 yards then get tackled.

Britt, sorry I would say Kasen, Treggs, and Higgens are all better options.

Kizer should be gagging on deja vu in the films breakdown, seeing awful choices week after week. Saying he has improved is truly relative. He needs some Vitamin Pine; he has earned it. Hogan is not our long term answer, but start him, not because he is great, but because Kizer has killed us worse than many on the board might have expected. Not an off game or rookie jitters; consistent lapses. I think Kizer has skills for down the road, but he is not near competing for a win currently. I am not that curious; if I have to watch ten or more losses to pretend he has "developed" or "grown", then I am really done watching for awhile. I assume we have seen his best at this time of which he is capable. Hogan is getting us scores with the same people, playbook, and does those consistently. Start Hogan for awhile.

I’ve been reading it a lot, but how do we know that Hogan isn’t the long term answer? It’s interesting how Hue is always talking about developing Kizer...makes me wonder how much time is actually spent on developing Hogan?

Did he get this far on his own with minimal help from Hue? What would happen if Hue did invest more time in developing him?

I get it, he’s the backup...but he’s clearly outperforming the starter.

Hogan did what Kizer needs to do. Work on the pro game. Hogan did not look like this last year when playing. He sat and developed. I think that is exactly what Kizer needs.

Ahhh..........never mind. LOL

It's not out of the question that Hogan can be the long-term answer. He gets the ball out in timely fashion, he seems to have good accuracy, ball placement - from what little I've seen of him.
Seems to process quickly. I'm kinda hopeful about him actually, although I'm not giving up on Kizer five games into his career. That would be short-sighted.

Really? You think that Hue thought Kiser was the answer from the start? Could Hue be that inept”

If Hugh Jackson sticks with Kiser his record will be 1-30 and he'll be looking at a new career.
Any team ever go back to back 1-15 seasons?That's what's going to happen with Kiser under center.

Kiser has learned nothing in 4 games.
Still gives up turnovers in the red zone..the only thing he's good at is sliding and drawing penalties..maybe that's the secret play..lol

Wanna make a bet?

I say that if Hue gets fired, he will have a job as soon as he wants one.

On the other hand, I think if Sashi is fired, he won't get another job in the NFL.

Keep things in perspective, people.

1: David Shula: Career record: 19-52. Shula, son of the legendary coach Don Shula, lost 50 of his first 71 games, becoming the fastest coach in NFL history to reach 50 losses. His best season: 7-9 in 1995.

Shula’s teams never finished higher than third in the AFC Central. He had two 3-13 seasons, and then never coached again.

As an oc ... sure ...

As a HC ...

I'm guessing Hugh would need 3 seasons at 1-15 to obtain the record..he's getting close...pass the popcorn..

I am a little slow. What is this supposed to mean?

I like how you left out the part about Sashi.

You keep laughing your ass off at me, Diam. No problem.

If only we had a first round pick for every time someone spelled Kizer as "Kiser" lol, we'd just be able to select all the Qbs in the upcoming draft. I do it too, hopefully my spelling typo results in an actual QB that can play.

I think the smart move is to start Hogan for the rest of the year.

I really hope he proves me right. That he is who I think he is.

To me, kizer is RGIII, Weeden.

Hope kizer proves me wrong, but that is how I see him when he plays

Couple of things .....

You don't tear a team down to a bunch of rookies, and start winning right away.

Rookie QBs, a few notable exceptions aside, don't win big in the NFL. Goff is probably one on the same type of learning curve as Kizer. His big step forward came between years 1 and 2.

I do think that Hogan showed that some of our guys on offense have some talent and ability. Kizer is 21, only played 2 years in college, and has shown that he needs some time to sit and learn.

I think that the defense has showed that it can play well when it has most of the pieces together. We still don't have one of our big pieces, Jamie Collins, back yet.

The plan was to tear it all down and start building from the ground up. We did this. If we dump what we have started to build, and start over again, we're just taking another step backwards. We have pieces in place, and need to continue to add to those pieces. We are 1.25 seasons into a complete rebuild. It wasn't going to come overnight.

The challenge is that many try to figure out which QB will be the answer before they have seen any games to make a fair assessment. Kizer is not the answer for now, that is pretty obvious. Hogan may or may not be. We will see. Hopefully he improves with each game, and I am willing to let the games reveal the decision.

our recievers are better than we thought. it was the qb..

its not like we were all in to get kizer to begin with. he `fell to us`..

Worst coaching record in NFL history.Hugh is closing in on the record

Question 1; are you including his 8-8 record as HC of the Oakland Raiders in 2011 or just his 1-20 record here?

Question 2; how many of those 71 games coached by Shula were with teams that had been stripped down to the foundation and the youngest team in the NFL?

I'm not saying Hue is without flaws, but you are implying he's the worst in NFL history by citing a stat without context.

Regardless if Hue is a good coach with no talent or a bad coach with no talent, just imagine how demoralizing it must be for him. I mean, 1 and 20?

Statement from Browns HC Hue Jackson on Kevin Hogan being named starting QB:
“I’ve made the decision to start Kevin this week. We’ve liked what Kevin has been able to do within our offense when he’s been in there and he will ‪start on Sunday because that’s what we feel is best for our team at this point in time. This does not change the way we feel about DeShone going forward. He has worked extremely hard and still very much has a bright future. Right now, it’s better for him and his development to back up Kevin.”

https://www.facebook.com/AdamSchefter/posts/1646941862025115

We should have let it go. Too early to say BUST over a kid so green, but we do not need to season him until 1-46 or thereabouts. I really want to see some of the great stuff he does that made us hang our hats on him.

Could've made that decision a few weeks ago, Hue. It doesn't even take a formula, math, science or anything but utter common sense. Glad you had to take weeks to dwell on common sense, Al' Mighty QB Whisperer

That is a big turd sandwich for Hue to bite into. I'm not going to dwell on the likelihood that this decision probably should have been made long ago.

It will be interesting to see how Hogan looks after a week of practicing with the starters.

I'm scared of what happens if Hogan isn't the hidden superstar we're hoping. I feel this is the decision that gets everyone fired.

I don't know if Sashi would or not, but I agree, Hue will have no problem finding a job. Probably better than 95%. Sashi's odd are under 25%. I place them that high because he is a sharp guy, but I doubt he will have any roster control.

I hope not. Maybe Hogan is the low-risk / high-reward crutch the team needs right now. If he looks good-to-serviceable, he's the bridge to Kizer/?. If he looks bad...well...he WAS just a PS guy. If he looks like Kurt Cousins...yippee.

I'm channeling my inner 'eotab' this morning.

Kizer or Hogan: Who Should the Browns Start Next Sunday?
ON OCTOBER 10, 2017 BY KEVIN COLEIN OFFENSIVE STRATEGY, PROSPECT ANALYSIS
We have our first serious quarterback controversy in Cleveland after head coach Hue Jackson benched rookie starter DeShone Kizer and turned the reins over to second-year backup Kevin Hogan.

A day later, Jackson passed when asked whom he would choose to start at quarterback this coming Sunday, saying that he needed to go watch the tape before making that decision.

Clearly Kizer hasn’t looked great, but it’s only been five weeks. There are lots of questions that need to be asked and answered before Jackson makes his decision: Is it too early to move on? How bad has Kizer’s start been in comparison to other similar prospects? And does Hogan have a realistic shot being a long-term answer or is turning to him a waste of time?

The 2017 numbers

With a re-vamped offense line that was ranked No. 2 by Pro Football Focus in the offseason, there was a lot of hope that the Browns would have a functional offense this year, despite the relatively low draft position and inexperience of their 21-year-old rookie starter. The traditional stats show you that the passing offense has been functional, but only with Hogan under center.

Player Comp% TD% Int% Sack% Yds/Att ANY/A
K.Hogan 68.4 7.9 5.3 5.0 9.9 8.5
D.Kizer 50.9 1.9 5.7 7.0 5.4 2.6
The numbers are night and day. The most comprehensive passing efficiency stat – adjusted net yards per attempt (ANY/A) – places Hogan slightly below league-leader Alex Smith. While Kizer’s 2.6 ANY/A is more than a yard less than the second worst mark in the league.1

Kizer has been effective rushing with 126 yards and two touchdowns on the ground. But even if we look at a stat like points added that incorporates rushing value added, Kizer still pales in comparison to the value Hogan has generated.

Player Team Pts Added Plays PA/P Pass PA Int PA PI PA Sack PA Run PA
K.Hogan CLE 5.9 47 0.13 7.4 -3.4 1.4 -0.6 1.1
D.Kizer CLE -15.7 203 -0.08 1.8 -14.9 2.9 -7.3 1.8
It a small, 47 play2 sample, Hogan has averaged slightly more points added per play than the points-added leader through five weeks, Deshaun Watson (0.13 to 0.12). Kizer looks relatively better by points added than ANY/A, with less negative per-play numbers than Mike Glennon, Jay Culter and Joe Flacco.

We shouldn’t look at these numbers are declare Hogan the best quarterback in the league and Kizer the worst, but when we’re talking about a decision linked to who will give your team the best chance to win, Hogan has the advantage.

Benching Kizer at this point could threaten his development. But you also have to consider the development of your other young offensive players. In particular, first round pick – a higher selection than Kizer – David Njoku has thrived with Hogan under center, in contrast to being a relatively inefficient receiver with Kizer.

Passer Yds/Target Target Share Rec Yds Share
K.Hogan 14.2 0.12 0.17
D.Kizer 3.9 0.07 0.06
Using history to estimate likelihood of success

While Hogan has been the superior player so far in 2017, we shouldn’t ignore the fact that Hogan was drafted much later than Kizer. In Bayesian statistics you can make effective use of small samples by combining limited evidence with a strong prior. In other words, we would be less confident that poor early results will continue for top picks, who we expect will eventually be good, than for late-round selections who haven’t had much historical success.

The first step to figuring out the likelihood that Kizer will continue to struggle or Hogan continue to thrive is to look at at historical hit rates for players drafted at their respective positions.

Football outsiders studied quarterbacks drafted from 1994-2016 and classified as “good” those who most would consider franchise quarterbacks. For quarterbacks who were selected in the second round like Kizer, the success rate was roughly 20%.3 This gives Kizer an decent evidence-free chance of success.

But when you dig further into the successes, you see that most of them were taken in the early second round. I think this is a significant difference from Kizer because an early second round selection has only had the worst teams in the NFL pass on them once, whereas Kizer saw multiple teams without a franchise quarterback pass on him twice. Therefore, it’s also relevant to look at third round quarterbacks, whose success rate is around half of second rounders at 10%.4

This means that our expectation for Kizer should be somewhere between 10-20%. But what about the fifth rounder Hogan? All quarterbacks selected in the fifth round and had a success rate of 7.8%.5 That’s not an encouraging rate, but not as dismal in comparison to second and third round quarterbacks are you might expect. Hogan’s prior is worse than Kizer’s based on draft position, but the Browns shouldn’t ignore the on-field evidence and give Kizer the nod no matter how the two are playing.

Visualizing Kizer versus historical successes

I’ve shown before my estimate for true passing efficiency using Bayesian updating. It incorporates our prior of a league-average quarterback and then updates what we believe a quarterback’s true passing efficiency is based on the evidence. The more evidence we have, the more heavily we weight that evidence versus our prior.

I thought it would be interesting to show how Kizer visualizes versus other successful second and third round quarterback. I only have data going back to 2000, but we still get a robust group including Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick and Derek Carr.



[img]https://i0.wp.com/predictivefootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Unknown-10.png?resize=768%2C475&ssl=1[/img]

The colors might be a bit confusing, but Kizer is the line Browns’ orange line heading almost straight down. Past successes like Brees and Carr saw their true passing efficiency estimate fall as they struggled early in their careers, but not nearly as rapidly as Kizer’s. It’s possible that Kizer is able to turn things around after an abysmal , but it wouldn’t follow the pattern of other second and third round successes.

Hogan wasn’t as bad of a prospect as most think

Most don’t take Hogan seriously based on his draft evaluation from last year and the fact that he was a fifth round pick. But he checked a lot of the non-draft-position boxes you like to see in prospects who outperform expectations.

I found fairly simple set of criteria to find those outperformers: at least three years starting, a career adjusted yards per attempt (AY/A) of 8.0 or higher, and more than 20 rushing yards per game. These filters leave you with prospects who won the starting job early, have larger sample sizes, have shown consistent passing efficiency, and have the ability to add value on the ground, which is an undervalued trait.

Hogan joins the group below hitting all those marks: four years as a starter, career 8.7 AY/A and 24.5 rushing yards per game.

[img]https://i2.wp.com/predictivefootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/C60QLcJU0AE1iaN.jpg?resize=768%2C545&ssl=1[/img]

Not all of these guys are been successes, but any screen that identifies Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott and Colin Kaepernick6 is worth monitoring. Hogan also checked the box of accuracy with a career completion percentage of 66%.

Hogan might not have the traits that scouts love, but he certainly had the numbers to forecast success, nearly matching the career numbers of the Stanford quarterback who preceded him, Andrew Luck.

Time to give Hogan a shot

Beyond the fact that Hogan performed at a different level this season, there are also reasons to think that Hogan’s chance of success moving forward isn’t that different from Kizer’s. It’s the right choice to give Hogan a shot to prove himself. I’m not going to get into the need for Jackson to preserve his job with some wins, which clearly tilts the decision in Hogan’s favor.

If Hogan fails, it’s not as if the Browns have turned on a top selection in Kizer. The Browns were fully prepared to miss all four of the top quarterback selection in last years draft after taking three non-quarterbacks in the first round. When Kizer fell to them in the mid-second round, they jumped to select him, but he clearly wasn’t a priority. Therefore the front office and larger organization had a plan during the draft that included a strong possibility they’d be going into the season with only Hogan, Cody Kessler and Brock Osweiler at quarterback.

For a team that isn’t in a rush to tie themselves and mortgage the future on a signal-caller, the risk of waiting too long to a young starter to turn things around could outweigh missing the opportunity to what else you have on the roster. In the same regard, if Hogan struggles, there’s no reason to hesitate in going back to Kizer and seeing if some time on the bench studying will improve his outlook.

https://predictivefootball.com/kizer-or-hogan-who-should-the-browns-start-next-week/

I think not making this decision would get people fired.

I think Jimmy Haslam is mostly a hands off owner, but in this case I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't at least ask Hue and the FO why they weren't playing Hogan. I would have. So would most of you. Jimmy owns a NFL team. He sells wins. He isn't going to sell seats if we keep winning a game a year while we play like some minor league team with a QB who would have benifited greatly by staying in the college game.

I feel like hindsight will be ignored by most in the worst case scenario. If Kevin Hogan struggles, it just becomes, "This team seriously thought KEVIN HOGAN would save their season?" or "You quit on Deshone Kizer, because you thought KEVIN HOGAN was the answer?" etc.

Kevin Hogan is the logical answer for now, but I have grave concerns regarding just how much of a difference he can make. If it isn't a significant difference, I fear my dreams and ambition of this team finally having some semblance of continuity are going to be crushed yet again.

As much as we should, most fans and media won't award Kevin Hogan any patience as a young player himself. And we can't go back to Kizer now. Hue can pretend it isn't so as much as he wants, but this action will kill any confidence Kizer had left. You only bench a quarterback for two reasons: He's injured, or you don't believe he can win in this league. Hue's actions, intentional or otherwise, will speak louder than his words.

All we can do is try. Hogan has moved the ball and scored points in his limited action. Kizer didn't with significant playing time. Let's see what Hogan can do over the next 4-5 weeks. If it looks much the same as Kizer, go back to Kizer for the final 5-6 games to get another look.

This is a bit of a lopsided bet offer, no? Hue just has to find a job (and only if he wants to???) and yet Sashi has to find one in the NFL? C'Mon Man!

If either one is fired, neither one is going to be hired for the same job right away. And yes, I would bet that all day long.

Keep things in perspective, people.

Ummm ... history doesn't support the above ... in 2015 we won 3 games ... in 2016 we won 1 game .... were 0 - 5 this year ... that means were 4 - 33 over our last 37 ... thats 11 losses for every 1.25 wins ... in 2015 who knew that would be considered a good year ... *L* ..

And u can extend it further if you like ... the most wins hes had is 7 ... HE'S NEVER BEEN 500 .. what year is this of his ownership?

Just curious ... how long before the seat seller ( ) stops selling seats? ...

I've said it since year 2 .... HE'S THE PROBLEM!!! ... always has been ... head of the snake ... and he is a snake ...

We've been the LAUGHING STOCK OF THE LEAGUE since he's bought the team ... he brought the CIRCUS TO TOWN ... and thats a compliment ... we've earned being the laughing stock of the league ... we've earned it ...

FACTORY OF SADNESS .... how has that not been the book title for his reign? .. please explain .... years 4 - 6 of his ownership has produced 4 - 33 ... LET THAT SINK IN ....

And thats not coming off super bowl seasons ... thats coming off a 7 win 2014 and a 5 win 2013 ... if he owned the team for all of 2012 that year we were treated to 4 whole wins ...

HOPEFULLY he FINALLY STAYS THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY ..

Think about this Peen ... hes been SO BAD that even if Hue and Sashi do 3 things that should be fireable offenses ... the thief couldn't fire them cause we'd literally get no one to ever come here .... why would they? ...

Crap ... Vers and GM (name fits bro .. *L*) may be the most qualified coach and GM we could hire if he fired Hue and Sashi now or even after next year ...

Think about that .... HES BEEN SO BAD HE CAN'T FIRE PEOPLE CAUSE HE'D GET NO ONE TO REPLACE THEM ...

Folks looking to place blame .... ITS RIGHT HERE ...

Hogan has played roughly 3 quarters and led the team to what, 24 points?

Kizer has played the other 17 quarters and led the team to 53 points.


Hmmm.....

Peen...I'M SHOCKED WITH YOUR ANSWER concerning Sashi.

All the crap I have taken and in reality, you have little confidence in Sashi.

I would not fire anyone involved unless they wanted out.
I've been criticized a ton for believing all this front office needs is someone helping them who has NFL experience at judging football talent.

Why would it be such a blow to the egos in this front office and for our owner to simply improve upon what they started?

When, after the Steelers game? After the second game? Maybe after the third game? Would you really expect him to bail on Kizer after three or four games? Nonsense. He let it play out as long as possible, then made the decision when he had no other choice. The team is a mess because it's young and they're screwing up with insane consistency. Without the drops, the turnovers, the missed field goals and stupid penalties we're not even having this conversation. Hogan MIGHT bring some stability, but that doesn't mean we're suddenly going on some miraculous winning streak. Hue is doing what he has to do to hopefully stabilize an erratic, young, inexperienced and confidence shaken team. Let's not make this more than it is.

Admittedly, I'm jaded. I've had this conversation before when Austin Davis and Connor Shaw became fan favourites due to moving the ball and scoring points in their limited action.

Kevin Hogan was drafted by KC but cut after a single training camp because Andy Reid saw a brighter future in Tyler Bray. Hogan was with us all last year and all this year, and Hue Jackson is only starting him now, which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. If Hue felt Hogan was the answer, Kizer would have never seen the field and Hogan would have never been on the practice squad.

I'd love to believe he's going to march in and singlehandedly save our season, but I won't hold my breath, and I think this has painted a huge target on Hue's back.

I sure hope we don't see Kizer the final 5-6 games. Hue quit on him, and four weeks isn't going to change that.

Hogan was on the practice for all of just a month before he was promoted to the roster (due to injuries). Kizer came long after Hogan was on the practice squad, so I don't think you can really correlate the two.

I also don't think Hue "quit" on Kizer. Kizer has been awful and although yeah, maybe he led the team into the redzone, he turned the ball over TWICE.

I was watching the game and at half I had told my friends if it were me on defense, I'd go to Hue and say can you please put the Kizer experiment on hold so we can win a game....

I don't think anyone in the organization has "quit" on Kizer. He definitely has talent, but he needs to learn to get rid of the ball and throw with accuracy before he's going to be any team's savior.

With Kevin Hogan starting, we now have a chance to win against the Texans. Watson will probably prevent that because of his superior skills that we never paid attention to in the draft. At least Hogan gives us hope where as kizer would be hopeless. The might be doomsday for DeShone because of his low low QB IQ. Go Browns!!

I never said Kizer and Hogan's stint to the practice squad correlate. I just made the point the Browns were prepared to lose Hogan. Do you think Myles Garrett goes on the practice squad this year, no matter how many injuries may mount? I'll say no. Because they don't want to lose him. That's how this team feels about Hogan.

But, that's my two cents. If he's what some of you guys think he is, I'll happily admit I'm wrong and we can join in celebration of finding out future - even if it is only a short term future, I'll take that in a heartbeat, but this decision doesn't seem to be one regarding the Browns actually feeling like Hogan is the future so much as a stopgap who might improve our situation.

I think that's incredibly short sighted. Kizer should have been developed (Like Mahomes) or just handed the reigns to play, let him grow, and develop for the future. We're back and forth between both without yet making a clear decision on either.

And Kizer was growing. Week one, he took a million (or seven) sacks. Weeks two and three, he was getting the ball out quicker but it resulted in six interceptions. Weeks four and five, he was getting the ball out quicker (only two sacks) and kept the interceptions down (only two) but his efficiency and production were down as a result of being careful to protect the ball.

Pretty standard in any young quarterback's development. The idea of continuation being that the new quicker passing, cautious-of-throwing Kizer would slowly get more comfortable in making throws while in the process of maintaining his growth of getting it out faster and avoiding turnovers.

Instead, we enter Kevin Hogan. I don't know what other word than "quit" I should be using. He's not getting on-field development anymore. He'll still get to watch film, sure, but I'm a believer in any player getting time on the field to get it right. That's why I'm a supporter of the other rookies getting playing time, even if it results in mistakes, which it certainly has - Peppers hasn't been great, but I don't want him benched.

Kizer isn't ready to be our saviour. But I have my doubts that Kevin Hogan is our saviour. And when Kevin, in my opinion, inevitably fails, we can get back to trying to get Kizer ready to be our saviour.

I just hope this doesn't get everyone fired. I can handle a talented rookie struggling to find his feet in a league which is insanely difficult for a young quarterback to stand proud, but I'm not sure I'm cool with a stopgap struggling while the rookie is cast aside. I'd consider that a black mark on the record. But, again, if Hogan is a saviour, what I've said is nullified.

This is probably the end of Kizer. He can sit for a month and learn the terminology and offensive system better but that's not going to help him with his accuracy and timing once he gets back out there. His mental processor is way too slow and I don't know if that can be improved much at all!!

Replacing Kizer as the starter doesn't mean Hue is giving up on him. Installing Hogan as the starter doesn't mean Hue sees him as the savior of the team. It is doing what is best for the team at this moment in time. How it plays out has yet to be seen.

We have to see what we have at WR, and the other skill positions. I think that it's obvious that the WRs and TEs respond much better when Hogan is under Center. (at least right now) We have to give these other players a chance to show what they can do.

I think you are missing something here... Hogan was never put on our practice squad this season. Last year the Chiefs cut him and we signed him to the practice squad. We already had Griffin, McCown, and Kessler already on the roster. Rarely does a team add a 4th QB to the roster.

So I'm not sure what you mean by "that's how this team feels about him" or "browns were prepared to lose him."

From what I can see, the team thinks pretty highly of Hogan because we signed him immediately after the Chiefs cut him, raised him to the active roster a month later and he's been on it ever since.

Second round pick, smart, rocket arm, Rookie. You are throwing in the towel already? Just a tad early in my book

second round pick is irrelevant, just because we took him in second doesn't mean he's second round talent, as we've all seen with our FO. Smart, book yes, football, remains to be seen. Rocket arm for sure, but has no idea how to use it. I don't think anyone will really be able to tell what his ceiling is until next year. But for the most part he looks like a bust, leading the league in every possible negative statistic for a QB, Just because we want him to be the guy, doesn't mean he will be. Nothing saying Hogan can't be the guy, guess we will find out.

Biggest thing I have issues with Kizer is not being able to play under center and accuracy. The decision making will hopefully get better with more experience, the other two needs to happen first.

I am hoping Hogan can get us some wins but we need to see some more of Kizer to see if we need to draft another QB in 2018 ...

I was talking about the chances of either getting another job in the NFL.

And you would have to be from Planet Delusional to think that Sashi has earned more respect in the NFL than Hue has and/or that a team would hire him before Hue.

This is my take as well. Hue and the coaching staff should get alot more leash than the FO, I think the FO should already be at the end of it..I'm actually surprised there isn't more talk about Sashi being on the hotseat. He must have Haslam buffaloed

Well...........I really don't want Sashi to be on the hot seat. I just think it is very unfair that people are placing so much blame on Hue when it was ownership and the FO that totally blew up the roster.

I had a feeling this was going to happen, but it is still annoying.

Welcome to the board BDU.

All I really have to say about your Hogan posts are this.....

Some players you feel strongly will develop, never do.

Other players you feel won't develop, do.

I saw nothing in Hogan last year that would have made me believe that he would have progressed to what I've seen him do this year. He's developed by leaps and bounds over last year. For a 5th round QB pick that's simply not normal. Now people can point to a few names that are the exceptions to that, but that's certainly not the general rule.

I fear what we've always seen in this scenario since I can remember. The back up looks good in small windows of play so the fan base makes the back up QB the most popular player on the team. Then when he becomes the starter and our opponents get some film on him, the fans become disappointed.

As a Browns fan, I certainly hope that doesn't happen. But I've seen this movie so many times I wouldn't rent it from Blockbuster if they were still open.

I think from a fan perspective, the FO did a rebuild in the worst possible way. Unless you hit on majority of your picks and FA, you've extended your rebuild by years. I think keeping some of the vets we had, especially where we were really young, would have been a much easier rebuild and possibly bought more time to work the plan

Pit, I think the move to Hogan has more to do w/Kizer not being ready than having some sort of great faith that Hogan is going to be good.

I think it might do Kizer some good to watch and learn while reflecting on some of the things he was doing in similar situations.

I really never liked the idea of starting him so early. If it were me, I would have kept Brock and let him start the season that was clearly going to be difficult no matter who played qb.

I wasn't a big fan of starting him so early, but I could see the writing on the wall.

And I agree with you as to why Hue decided to start Hogan, I'm just not so sure a lot of the fans don't expect more.

LOL.......it's not like history would make you unsure.

Correct. And the Planet Obvious reigns superior yet again!

Thank you, deceivingdawg.

yep. exactly right.

I think what's more interesting and quite possibly more annoying are the people blaming the front office for the "lack of talent" thus leading the head coach to make poor on the field decisions.

Jokes aside, I don't think either side, Hue or Sashi, should be fired. It's WAAAAAAAY too early to make a decision on either one. Let's wait and see.

I feel this will be the decision that probably gets everyone fired. Hogan ins't going to be the answer here, and this just turns the team into more of a circus then it already its.

Kizer has played 5 games a pro...5....expecting a raw 2nd rd pick to come out and play like an average NFL QB right out of the get is absolutely ridiclious....Goff was terrible last year as a rookie....

If the Browns were "serious" about developing Kizer as QB after cutting the vet Osweiler then you let him play....you HAVE to let him play at that point.

ALL of Kizer's mistakes have simply been your normal rookie NFL Qb mistakes...trying to thread a needle in triple coverage, throwing across his body, etc....that stufdf works in college, but Kizer is still getting used to the speed of the NFL game and how things work.

im sorry but the Browns and Hue Jackson is a complete joke benching his 21 year old rookie QB after 5 games....

Big Ben Rothlisberger was EXTREMELY impressed with Kizer...he saw a lot of what the future of the Browns could be if the Browns stuck to plan of developing him...but as always the Browns kneejerked and benched him.

Thats a big no no when it comes to deveopling a QB...either he sits behind a vet from the get go, or you name him the starter and ride it out....The Browns failed at both of those things...The Browns have failed Deshone Kizer....Peyton Manning was atrocious his rookie year, but his coach didn't bench him after 4 and half games did he?>

this is why this organization continues to flounder..if a guy doesn't play like Brady right out the gate its time to toss him in the trash for someone else...we will never win games as long as they keep doing BS like this....the fans deserve better then this nonsense...this was supposed to be a "development year" anyways if year 3 was their plan to push forward...benching Kizer just puts us farther behind wasting reps on a guy like Hogan who won't even be part of the longterm plan, reps that could really help Kizer in his growing pains...

Sort of j/c

Blowing up the roster was the decision they made, and whether we agree or not none of us are qualified to judge it at this point. And while certainly risky, there's no evidence yet that it wasn't the right move. It's quite possible there may have been mistakes in how they got there but we don't know how it will ultimately work out. (In my view they could have kept some veteran talent but even that would have been risky in terms of performance, ROI, and/or attitude.) Their first draft class was chosen without a full year of prep, and we still may have gotten some very good players (jury still out). The second draft class could very well turn out to be a good one (jury still out). We have a boatload of picks in 2018 and far fewer holes to fill. 2019 could really be a boon year for adding depth and quality starters. Free agency has been difficult in part because of who we are and the culture that's long been established here (i.e. we end up losing Schwartz and Prior and gaining Britt). That's a tough hill to climb. However, we have cap space to fill in holes and help make us a win now team should we chose to do so in FA in 2018. Also, there's plenty of money available to pay some of those contracts that will come up in 2018 & 2019.

I look at the Jets who everyone was sure were tanking this year and I see the limited success they are having by building through the draft, cutting high paid vets and malcontents, and being in their third year with their head coach and see many similarities to where we are now. Last year Jets fans were sure the sky was falling. They wanted to "Suck for Sam", certain they were too bad to win games this year. But here they are at 3-2 behind an aging QB.

This Browns team was stripped to the studs and the FO's collective asses are hanging in the breeze. It was an "all-in" bet on themselves. The fan base can't take it. People are stroking out over Hue & Sashi, and while their inexperience is costing them love points, they still seem (to me anyway) to be heading in the right direction. I don't expect much this year except improvement from where we are now. But I do expect to see a better team next year, and a much better team the year after.

Is this FO & coaching staff perfect? No. Is any? Hell no. I think they're doing some very good work, and I think they are learning as they go. That is the risk you take when hiring people who need to grow into their jobs. Maybe it will all turn to crap. Right now, we don't know but all the angst stemming from the years of abysmal failure by previous regimes do not belong to these guys. They deserve a solid 4-5 years to make their plan work, mainly because they tore it down to the studs and it will take that long to build it back up, but also because nothing else has worked.

JMHO

This sums up my position perfectly, great post.

Thanks, drobs!

no evidence? 1 win 20 loss is evidence....

I feel the same way and have mentioned some of these points on my posts. I would like to add we have to see what we have with KH. He may be good and seems to run the O well. We don't have to give up on DK. He's very young and can still develop even if KH does well. It might up being a win win situation although that does seem strange for us!

After the bad throws, holding the ball too long, staring down his target and etc etc with the consistent, game after game display of the same mistakes - I think after the third game would've been beyond clear to make the move. The drops, although hard to see when we finally get a catchable ball, are not why we're having this conversation or why we made this move. A lot of turnovers are because he has no clue what timing is, and no clue what accuracy is.

If you want to sit back in fairy tale land, say "let's not make it more than what it is" and etc - go on. Have faith Kizer will get another chance and he'll be improved. I don't think he'll improve. This is JMO. He's had to look at the tape of himself, had to of had Hue yelling at him and etc and just never shown the signs of improvement out there.

Hogan has come in each and every time and right away moved this offense. He's already brought SOME stability with no work with the #1s. He deserved this chance probably before Kizer/Kessler took #1 reps. Hue made him the last on our roster, and he's now the starter hahaha.

Bad decisions...

Took five weeks to see what I saw in game three of the preseason. That's not good.

Do you think that maybe Hogan, who has sat and learned, has benefitted the way most want when they say we need to let the rookie sit for a year. Hogan has done that. Also he was coached by a couple good staffs.

I don't know if he's going to be the answer everyone is looking for, but he might just be someone who can run the offense efficiently enough, to let the defense dictate the game.

Then again, he might just suck like all the rest.

Glad to see some move that is different. These losses have been bad followed by a worse week the next game. And it was getting worse with DK. Not that Hogan is great; DK is bad at some basic stuff.

Good luck, Hogan! Go, Brownies!

I will just quote this part so you know which post I was replying to.

I liked your post and agree w/almost all of it. Very logical and reasonable.

I do want to add that I think the plan was very risky because people are already assigning blame to Hue. Last year, they blamed Horton.

People might say they will be patient, but as the losses continue to mount, their patience is out the window and they look to assign blame.

Gutting the roster leads to a ton of losing. A ton of losing leads to emotional reactions. Emotional reactions lead to firings. Firings lead to further ineptitude.

It never ends, Cal.

I think we both agree that no one should be fired and that we should give them all plenty of time to see this through.

I just have my doubts that the above will occur. And I think it's a damn shame that Hue is catching so much grief from the fans and media!

I liked Hogan in the draft and said several times that maybe he was the dark horse due to Pep Hamilton being on our staff. I was very glad to see we picked him up from KC.

There is no doubt he has come in and looked exciting BUT...how will he do when a defense plans for him? Thus far he has come in and played in spurts as a reliever. No team has actually watched his film and prepped/planned to play 60 minutes against him. Sunday will be interesting to see what he can do, how he plans and prepares as a starter and how he responds to what Houston's defense dial up.

That's always the question, isn't it?
Game-planning against a QB who until now was an afterthought, I mean.
I guess if he's going to be good, Hogan and the coaches will have to adjust to the defensive adjustments, and be successful.

I am not quite getting the "game planning" angle many have been throwing around in regards to Hogan.

Teams have been game planning to stop our run game the last two years by assigning an extra man in the box.

I am really not trying to be snarky, but are people thinking that teams are now suddenly going to be changing the game plan because Kevin Hogan has been named the starter?

LOL.....I'm sorry...............but..........LOL!!!!

It's funny, some losses are ok but not this many. We can take failure, just not total failure. We don't like the teams we had, but don't get rid of everyone, just the ones we say. We want a coach and FO to run the team and make decisions but only if we agree with everything the say and do. It's like living with a collective of irrationality. I hope Haslam has the cojones to stay the course. If they blow it up again in the next year or two the fanbase will deserve everything that comes from that.

Haslam is the key, Cal. Let's hope he doesn't listen to all the nay-sayers and stays the course for once.

I actually have more hope now that Dee is involved. She is probably more level-headed than hot-headed Jimmy.

Haha, I understand what you're saying man, but if Hogan continues his production through the air, opposition Ds will have to look at another approach.

Yeah, no doubt.

And I was not getting on your ass. You were just the last one to mention it...and yeah, I know you were replying to someone else who said it. LOL....sorry about that, bro.

I have just been reading those comments for a bit now and I think most were brought up more to defend Kizer than anything else.

I don't get the game planning difference either. I look at Hogan and Kizer as having similar skills.. strong arm.. able to throw down field.. able to escape the pocket and run if needed.

The difference is .. Hogan sees the field better and makes quicker decisions. To me, it would seem as though there would be a similar game plan considering the arm, downfield ability and running ability. How would the game plan change??

I don't know. I guess it could.......but again, I don't think it will until Hogan does enough in the passing game [and that is a huge if] to make DC's change their plan.

well, if he sees the field better and gets the ball out quicker, then a defense would start having to give a little more respect to the pass game, no?

They could still roll with an initial plan of playing to stop the run, but they'd also have to have a couple of plans to adapt to if Hogan gets hot or finds a match-up that works in our favor. It might force them to abandon selling out for the run.

Having skills and being able to take advantage of your skills are two different things, I reckon.

Just a little side thought: if Kizer had been able to move the offense even just a little bit better, would we have 2 wins? (Pitt and the Jets) My thinking is Hogan doesn't need to be leaps and bounds better than Kizer was, but say he makes 5 more first downs. Does that put the team in a better position to win? One would think so. I don't think 5 more first downs is an unreasonable expectation.

I really liked Hogan in college, and was really happy to see us pick him up.

As an excercise, what NFL quarterback could Hogan be compared to, just using his small stat base? Could he be compared to an Alex Smith? Kirk Cousins? Andy Dalton? Just an opinion type of inquiry.

I'd say Billy Kilmer.

play wise? meh Carson Palmer maybe?

I'm bound to get another comment for that one lol

This doesn't answer your question and it is very early, and Sunday was the first time I saw him play this season.... and I am not a QB expert by any stretch, but I love his decisiveness.

I can't think of a QB right off the bat, that he reminds me of.

Billy Kilmer. LOL!

LOL

I don't see that as a issue. When Hogan came in the game, the plan didn't change. It's not like he is a different type of QB.

If I went back a ways.. I would say Joe Theisman.. out of the current crop of QBs .. Cousins might be about the closest. This is just based off a limited number of views, I'm sure others here will disagree

Hogan is, shockingly enough, a SPARQ wunderkind. I am actually shocked how closely his numbers are to one Dashaun Watson!

He, to me, looks like a Russel Wilson or maybe Colin Kaepernick? He is a better thrower than Kaepernick but he does seem to me to be a very good and smart runner.

The more I watch him, and how he played against the Jets, the more I like him. He struggles with pressure in his face but other than that, he plays a strong QB game.

sorry I dont see anyone getting fired...am I missing something?

I have no doubt he's in some way benefit from his time developing, as one would expect from any second year player, but my question is ultimately to what extent.

Kizer got benched last week for not being productive enough, but Hogan didn't win the game. My worst fear is sitting here at the end of the season with a 4-12 record and no idea what we've got in Deshone Kizer. The fans and media will still be calling for everyone to be fired, but we won't have the added benefit of knowing with some level of surety what our rookie is capable of. We'll ultimately be flying blind still, albeit to the tune of a little more production on offense.

I'm happy for Hogan, and hoping for the best, I'm just not at all sure this decision is going to turn the dial too much. If it only adds a couple of wins to our season total, I don't know if I'll find myself thrilled during a long offseason.

That's also ignoring the draft. When the Colts were announcing the selection of Andrew Luck, being 4-12 rather than 2-14 sure wasn't giving me a warm, fuzzy feeling.

I just feel like this was a desperation move. I do hope I'm wrong.

We keep drafting QBs till one sticks. If DK can't beat out next year's rookie then it's a wash anyway. Until we have our own franchise QB draft 1 a year. Here's hoping KH (!) can show something against Houston. I think they are beatable. Then again, so are we.

The Panthers drafted Cam Newton the year after drafting Jimmy Clausen in the second round. I'd expect we do the same thing.

Yeah, nothing wrong with drafting another QB this year, worst case scenario, Kessler drops off the bottom of the roster.

j/c

Until you have a franchise QB you need a franchise QB.

you keep drafting QB's till one comes in and takes the job...Kizer didn't, so you draft another...not like we don't have picks

I don't think Kizer is a finished product yet. Even if Hogan plays well enough to win the job for the rest of the year, Kizer will still be here.

JC...Is Kessler still not dressing on Sundays? Was just wondering if we are still only keeping two QBs active...

Wouldn't it be funny if the QB who was 4th on the depth chart, the one no one was talking about, turns out to be the best one and our QB of the future. If he does we can chalk it up to more outstanding talent evaluation by our FO!!!

Browns receiver adjust to more “touch” passes from Kevin Hogan

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...om-kevin-hogan/

Snippet:

Every quarterback throws it differently,” receiver Kenny Britt told reporters on Thursday. “[Kevin] Hogan has a little bit more touch. [DeShone] Kizer is going out there and it is a straight laser.”

Britt, nobody is interested in hearing from you... except for your opinions on catching from the Juggs machine.

The younger thinner Billy Kilmer, or the older more voluptuous Billy Kilmer?

I was thinking he reminds me of Hoyer a bit without the mental blow up... Kilmer was pretty good. We should be so lucky!
Jmho

I liked Hoyer just fine. didn't care that he got stuck on Gordon when he came back.

it was like Gordon was the only guy he wanted to throw too.

he was in panic mode by then.

lol ok you might be right on that one. But he did look better before Gordon came back...was hard to watch that.

I've been thinking Hogan is a lot like Hoyer for some time now, but with a stronger arm. As for the 2014 season, he was great until we lost Mack for the season. I don't think we won another game after that.

edited to add; I remember NFL or ESPN commentators, about mid-season, joking that it was time to break up the Browns.

I remember group texting a bunch of people [especially Steeler fans] after we beat Atlanta that year to move to 7 and 4. I said: "The Browns are back, baby!"

I think we're 4 and 38 since that text.

so its your fault...lol

j/c

This entire scenario reminds me of the last time the fan base fell in love with a back up with the same initials. Kelly Holcomb.

PURE MAYHEM BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!

Knows how to win.

How many games has he won?

Hogan certainly looks the part (6-foot-4, 218), has football genes in his family (close relatives played at Navy, Arizona, and Notre Dame), has won a lot of games (36-10 as a starter), and possesses the athleticism to be effective running the zone read (85 carries, 336 yards, six touchdowns in 2015) at that size.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/kevin-hogan?id=2555263

Yet the two situations are entirely different.

To some degree yes and to some degree no.

Browns fans have always fell in love with the back up QB's. They see them in limited action and go gah, gah, over them. They often look at only the best case scenario and say things like, "Who's to say he's not the answer?", "But in the time he's played, he scores."

Then, when other teams get some film on them and spot their weaknesses, exploit those weaknesses and we see them for what they really are, those bubbles are quickly burst.

I've seen this same movie over and over again since 1999. I hope this time when I sit in the theater and watch the same old movie that someone has written a different ending and replaced it with a new scene. But I'm not holding my breath.

QB Kevin Hogan's stats in 2 games:

- 26/38 passing - 68.4%
- 377 yards
- 3 touchdowns
- 2 interceptions
- QBR: 104.8
- 2 sacks

I understand your frustration, and you're right in that the untested backup usually seems to be the guy fans want most when things start to go south. However, I don't think anyone here believes Hogan is the be-all end-all, just that he deserves a shot at stabilizing the team and working to win the position. Whether he can do that or not remains to be seen, and you're right, that all might change if defenses adjust or if he simply fails to perform. But replacing a faltering rookie with a second year backup is much different than the Couch/Holcomb scenario.

I understand why he's getting his shot. Kizer hasn't been performing and Hue has to try something. And look, I hope things work out differently than the last, what seems like 3,247 times we've done this. lol

Nobody wants to see our team do well any more than I do. And I didn't mean to make my comments on the expectations of some be geared towards you. But I have seen what I view as very high expectations on the part of some posters.

And I do think we view this situation a little differently. I see it as our starter is faltering and the fan base, at least some of them, are getting high expectations on a back up QB. Now we can discess where or how this happened. But the scenario seems a lot like so many before.

Now you can parse the situation talking about how the situation came about, where the players were drafted, etc..... But the end result, to this point has been that the starter was benched and the results were always the same.

So you're the one to blame.....

Hope springs eternal.

Damn I wasn’t aware dude was 6’4

Hogan has looked better no doubt. He does remind me of Hoyer as someone pointed out in the thread. If he can get us some wins, let's see how he does over a prolonged period. I just want an answer. It doesn't have to be what I want or what I thought. Just right.

LOL........I know it's crazy, but I am not going to start bragging if we ever start playing well.

Yep. I posted this in another thread or two, it's what I like to refer to as the Kelly Holcomb effect.

Well Kelly was much better than Timid, so there's that.

Yet it worked out about the same. lol

Foge Fazio

I see a Cousins in him. Good arm, but not great, but a baller.

He plays to win.

j/c:

I see a QB that has tried to shorten his delivery, has almost as much rush yardage equity as Kizer, and clearly has a better release time.

We'll see Sunday.

This is not going to end well, is it?

Has it started well?

When was the last time it was "well?"

The year was 1989 and Bernie was our QB.....

1994 and Testeverde was our QB...or was 1993?

I was about to say 1964 and Frank Ryan was our Quarterback.. lol

I am just saying people's expectations for Hogan are already out of whack. He is, most likely, not a savior. He is just not going to be the worst QB in the league the way Kizer was.

The last time things were going well was when we beat the Falcons during Pettine's first year (because Mike Smith horribly mismanaged the clock). It's been literally the worst since then (and for most of the time before that season).

I guess when you are horrible for so long you have to try and talk yourself into things being good. This week it is Kevin Hogan and the defense is not bad.

You're right, and maybe hogan will be the next QB to disappoint us.... But I see some good things in him. Smart, accurate, composed, has awareness.

Well it seems throwing a rookie like Kitzer in could had been a pretty bad mistake. Just hope Kizer will learn from the sidelines and grow.

Personally I think I'd rather focus on developing Hogan, he's essentially a rookie and is showing a ton of upside.

I'd like to develop a QB that can win a game. Hogan might be it. Given the amount of time Kizer appears to need as our next project, might be some chance with Hogan. I do not care who wins us games; go, Browns!

I don't know how it can get any worse...I guess it could....we could be 0-21 over the last two seasons.

Hue was pretty patient with Kizer. Now he needs to do the same with Hogan the next 4-5 games. See what he brings. If nothing, go back to Kizer the last 5-6 games to see if the off time did him any good.

I hope Jimmy was in on the meetings when Watson was being discussed. He needs to know the who and why's because something isn't clicking with our QB selection process.

I wasn't a big advocate for either Wentz or Watson, though I wasn't against them. I am not paid to make those decisions or considered expert enough to make those calls.

Being a Browns fan is supposed to be fun....no??

What's going to happen if Hogan goes all "DA in the 1st Cincy game" on us?

The fans will demand that BQ starts???

Not sure what you are talking about.

I like Anderson...at least we won some games.

He means .. 500 yards passing.. first throw an 80 yard TD pass.. 28 of 30 passing.. and a WIN !!!

( maybe exaggerating.. but that is the way I remember it )

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm

Hogan's 40 yard time at the combine 4.78
Kizer's time 4.83

Vertical jump
Hogan 32.5
Kizer 30.5

Broad jump
Hogan 113.0
kizer 107.0

3 cone drill
Hogan 6.9
Kizer 7.4

20 yard shuttle
Hogan 4.31
Kizer 4.53

Hmmmmmmmmmm........

He also gets the ball out in a timely manner. I hope we're seeing (and saying) these same things a month from now.

His college experience is vastly different/better as well. 3 1/2 year starter after a red-shirt year.

You forgot hand size...never forget hand size.

If he can do the job, that's really all Hue needs at this point. Kizer was doing as you could expect the youngest rookie starting QB to play, but I think Hogan is better for Hue right now.

Will it result in a win? Minimizing mistakes can't hurt. If Hogan is going to be that guy, he should be starting.

Terry's Talkin'

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer terrypluto2003@yahoo.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Talkin' about Kevin Hogan ...

1. Now that he's the starting quarterback, what if Kevin Hogan can do the job originally assigned to Cody Kessler? Heading into the summer practices, Kessler was supposed to be the starter. The idea was for Kessler to play so there would be no need to rush DeShone Kizer into action. When Kessler failed, the Browns turned to Brock Osweiler.

2. By the third preseason game, Hue Jackson had turned to Kizer as the starter. Hogan was slowly moving up the depth chart. By the time the regular season opened, Hogan was the backup and Kessler was No. 3.

3. Hogan came to the Browns with many of the attributes they liked in Kessler. He was a four-year starter for a team that played a pro offense. That was true of Kessler at USC and Hogan at Stanford. I'm told the Browns had Hogan on their list of quarterbacks to take lower in the draft. They obviously rated Kessler above him. Hogan had a big fan in Pep Hamilton, who had coached him at Stanford. Hamilton was an assistant coach with the Browns last season.

4. Hogan played in 50 games at Stanford. His athleticism has always been underrated. He set a Stanford rushing record for quarterbacks with 1,246 yards for his career. Browns fans saw Hogan's mobility when he ran for 104 yards against the Bengals last season. He took over for the injured Kessler.

5. An interesting story by Jim Sannes for Numberfire compared Hogan to Kizer in a variety of areas. But the most surprising were results from the NFL Combine in the 40-yard dash, the vertical jump, the broad jump and the three-cone drill. In each area, Hogan was slightly superior to Kizer. Both guys are pretty athletic. The difference is few noticed that about Hogan.

6. Kizer has a stronger arm and has ideal NFL quarterback size at 6-foot-4, 230 pounds. This is not to turn Hogan into a better long range prospect than Kizer. Nor is it to insist Hogan is the long-term answer at quarterback for the Browns.

7. But it appears the Browns underrated Hogan. That's probably because they didn't draft him. They went with Kessler in the third round of 2016. Hogan was picked in the fifth round by Kansas City.

8. The Browns claimed Hogan after the Chiefs cut him right before the 2016 season. When Kansas City coach Andy Reid cut Hogan, I considered that a red flag. Reid is very smart when it comes to quarterbacks. At the time, Kansas City had Alex Smith and Nick Foles -- two veteran quarterbacks.

9. Hogan will be 25 on October 20. He spent all last season learning Jackson's system. The Browns wanted a quarterback who could keep the offense in order and generally look like he knows what he's doing this season. Then at some point, the plan was to give Kizer a chance.

10. The Browns ended up doing what they originally didn't want to do -- rushing Kizer into action. Hogan has said his "head was swimming" last season when he played in parts of a few games as a rookie. If that's the case for a four-year starter from Stanford's pro offense, is there any reason to believe it would have been different for Kizer this season? Kizer is only 21 and had 24 starts in a pure college offense at Notre Dame.

11. Kizer had a promising debut against Pittsburgh, completing 20-of-30 (67 percent) passes for 222 yards. He had only one interception and threw a TD pass. Since then, it's been pretty dismal for Kizer: 61-of-129 (47 percent) passing, two TDs compared to eight interceptions. It's very hard to keep him on the field when he is overwhelmed.

12. One of the reasons the Browns hesitated immediately proclaiming Kizer the starter is they wanted to keep him away from being proclaimed "The Franchise Quarterback." That is especially true in Cleveland, where it's a desperate quarterback situation featuring constant change on dismal teams.

13. They played Kizer anyway. And he had significant problems, which should be no surprise. But Kizer probably was shocked at how hard it was to play in the NFL, especially in terms of being a quarterback for the Browns. Regardless of what anyone says to the media, Kizer was regressing. His confidence was shaken.

14. This is not to blame Kizer for everything. The Browns receivers have been awful. Isaiah Crowell has had a difficult season at running back. The offensive line has improved the last few weeks, but it was ragged early. All of that also had a negative impact on Kizer.

15. To make the main point: This is not to say Hogan is the long-term quarterback solution. But early indications are he could do the job that the Browns originally hoped Kessler or Osweiler would handle -- bringing some stability to the position.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf...art_river_index

Good post and all good points. The one that really stuck out to me was #10. If it was tough for KH in his 1st year trying to learn the playbook with 50 starts in college you can understand how much more difficult it was for DK with less than half the starts and what was probably inferior coaching at Notre Dame. DK should never have been our starting QB this year. I said it before the season started and it has become apparent in the 1st 5 games. He's a smart kid, a good kid that seems to want to learn and do well. I like him. Let him sit, learn and catch his breath.

9 burning questions for Browns QB Kevin Hogan

Andrew Gribble
Senior Staff Writer

The former Stanford standout makes his first NFL start Sunday

Hue Jackson likes to refer to Kevin Hogan as “steady Eddy.” That could apply to the former Stanford standout both on and off the field. Little rattles Hogan’s poise, whether it be an adverse in-game situation or a flurry of questions from reporters.

ClevelandBrowns.com cornered Hogan for one last interview heading into his first NFL start Sunday in Houston.

CB.com: Walk us through what the week’s been like now that you’re the starter.

Hogan: It’s a lot of the same things. You’re preparing the same way, kind of keeping to your routine. You don’t want to change too much. When I was playing before, I was trying to prepare as if I was the starter. Obviously some things are a little different, getting more reps in practice, spending more time with the guys, talking through communication and what’s going to go down Sunday. Just trying to make sure you’re on top of everything and in communication with guys on the team.

CB.com: You mentioned earlier this week that this is your comfort zone because you played so much at Stanford. Was that an advantage for you coming into the league?

Hogan: I think it was definitely an advantage, especially with the offense we were in. It was mostly pro-style so we were handling a lot of the protections and the run game, kills and stuff. I played a lot of games so I saw a lot of things on defense. I pretty much saw it all. I think having that experience and then coming here, it doesn’t really surprise me as much. I’ve seen a lot of it before. Obviously, everyone’s a lot better at it at this level, but it’s not something that’s new.

CB.com: A lot of Browns fans remember what you were able to do last year in Cincinnati with your legs. You rushed a lot in college but not at that level. When you came away from that game, what were you thinking about what you’d just done?

Hogan: That week, I wasn’t sure how many reps I was going to get in the game. I was ready to get three, four or five, however many reps but it just kept working. We were able to make positive plays. Then, when I had to come in and play quarterback, it was still there and I was able to take off and run when the pass plays broke down. Then we had our zone-read gains and it just worked out. It’s something I’m confident in. I trust my ability. I don’t rely on it, but I trust it. I’m never afraid to take off and get a few yards.

CB.com: Have you learned the proper way to take a hit because of all of that running?

Hogan: I learned how in college so I try and protect myself. I try and get down, get out of bounds. I try to be smart with that.

CB.com: What’s it meant for your development to be in this system for more than a year?

Hogan: It’s night and day from last year. Last year, I got here about Week 1 and I was trying to learn the offense week by week through the game plan installs. I was still kind of unsure how coach wanted each week to be. Then having a full offseason with OTAs and camp to really go through coach explain the way it’s supposed to be run, it kind of all makes sense. It’s like a light flicks on in your head. That allows you to play so much faster and more confidently knowing what you’re seeing, knowing where your guys are going to be. When you react to what the defense is doing and you know where your guys are, you can get the ball out.

CB.com: You worked this offseason with a private coach to improve your footwork. Was that one of the biggest changes you’ve made to your game?

Hogan: I’ve always tried to stick with my rhythm. In this kind of offense, it’s all about timing so I try and have a very specific rhythm for each drop I take based on the routes that are going out. My footwork was huge this offseason, really kind of shortening my stride and trying to eliminate a long stride, pitching motion. I feel like it’s helped a lot. It’s still a work in progress, but it’s something I’m excited about because I know I can continue to improve on it.

CB.com: It seems like you’ve had a good connection with David Njoku when you’ve been out there. Does that go back to being a Stanford guy and playing with so many good tight ends?

Hogan: We like to call ourselves Tight End U. I think five of my tight ends are in the NFL now. I was very lucky to have such great talented tight ends in college. I kind of knew where I could put the ball for those guys and how they run their routes. I’m starting to feel that with our tight ends here, with Seth (DeValve), David and Randall (Telfer). Obviously, David is super talented and gifted and I just kind of throw the ball in his vicinity and he goes up and makes an unbelievable catch. It’s really nice having those tight ends work the middle of the field and I’m excited to keep going to them.

CB.com: There’s been a lot of turnover at receiver this year, but how would you define your chemistry with them?

Hogan: It’s been great. This is my first week really working with the ones. I felt like we had a really good week. For me, it was just about getting completions and feeling comfortable. I know these guys are super eager for this opportunity coming up this Sunday to go against a good defense. I feel like we had a really good week of preparation.

CB.com: Have you heard from any different people than you usually do going into your first NFL start?

Hogan: I’m just going to go out there and try and treat it like a normal game. I’m not going overboard with anything. I’m treating this like a normal game and not let any of the outside stuff get to me. It’s a business trip. We’re going down there, everyone will be watching. I’m just going to take care of my business.

Link

My bad

Hand size
Hogan 10 1/4
Kizer 9 7/8

QB pass velocity (MPH):

Kizer 52

Hogan 53

(Oh yeah ... Kessler 55)

http://blogs.ourlads.com/2017/03/16/quarterback-ball-velocity-at-nfl-combine-2008-2015/

j/c:

****Begins Google search for "2018 Mock Draft Site".****

I like it.

That's what I was implying. DA threw tons of TD passes in his 1st start, and people tore him apart, wanting the "name" guy.

I sure would hope he will poop before the game...

Those numbers are less then worthless though.

We report, you decide.

What's not to like? I'm loving Hogan so far

Kevin Hogan’s high school coach saw a lot of Jerry Hogan in Kevin Hogan. Three years after Jerry’s death, he still does. A look at how a father shaped the outlook of the man who might be more than just a stopgap as he approaches his first start for the Browns.

If the world wants to think Kevin Hogan is just keeping the job warm, Hogan will pour himself into proving otherwise without mentioning anything to the world.

He gets that from his father. Jerry Hogan wanted his life to be about purpose and good living, not dwelling on dark tangents, throughout the long process of losing his life to colon cancer.

Jerry was diagnosed in 2010, when Kevin was a senior at Gonzaga College High School in Washington, D.C. The father insisted that Kevin, the youngest of three siblings, follow his heart to the other side of the country.

Jerry went through the recovery grinder while working in Washington, keeping his suffering to himself. He made it almost through Kevin’s third year as Stanford’s starting quarterback and was able to travel to games until near the end.

Jerry relied on his Catholic faith, his zest for life, and his wish for his family to be of good heart. Kevin kept it quiet, too, in part not wanting his burden to become that of the team he was leading.

The team discovered what Kevin was going through very late in the game. The family was back in Virginia, in the bedroom community of McLean, home to congressmen, CIA workers, FBI types, lobbyists and all manner of people making good livings in Washington.

Kevin flew back from California in time to spend final hours at his father’s bedside. Jerry, 64, died on Dec. 8, 2014, 10 days after the last regular-season game of Kevin’s junior year, a 31-10 road win at No. 9-ranked UCLA.

An entry in the funeral home’s tribute book reflects the essence of the situation and of Jerry:

“Donna and family. I just this minute found out about my friend Jerry. I am utterly stunned. I had no idea he was ill. He was as wonderful and as capable a man as I have ever known. It was my great pleasure to serve with him at church. God bless all of you in the days and months ahead.”


Another entry touched on Jerry’s approach to his job in Washington and to life:

“I will miss the email, phone calls and especially the lunches I had with Jerry. They were consumed with football talk and bits about work, but I’ll always remember how he lit up any time he spoke about his family. I was in awe of the pride and joy he took discussing anything related to (wife) Donna (and children) Brian, Kelly and Kevin. He was an example for the man, husband and father I’d like to be. Rest in peace, my friend!”

And another:

“I will miss Jerry’s smile, his quick wit, and how he always asked questions about how my family was doing.”

As one learns more of the new No. 1 quarterback of the Cleveland Browns, one begins to appreciate parts of why his countenance is quiet, determined, bright ... reflective.

Kevin doesn’t consider it an imposition that so few observers took him seriously in camp. Even now, the popular assumption is that he is just passing through on a team that never keeps QBs.

“You might not believe me,” he said, “but that is not something I ever think about.”


For now, Hogan is playing while rookie Round 2 pick DeShone Kizer chills.

“This is another opportunity to go out there and play some ball, which I love,” Hogan said.

The Chiefs drafted Hogan in Round 5 last year. They didn’t love him. At the end of the 2016 preseason, they cut him, and he cleared waivers, allowing him to choose Cleveland’s practice squad (his primary influence was assistant coach Pep Hamilton), rather than joining Kansas City’s.

As late as Sept. 1, Hogan was the No. 4 quarterback on the Cleveland depth chart. The Browns’ infamous QB machine turned. He now replaces Kizer, who started the first five games.

(A side note: Jerry Hogan was educated at Notre Dame, where Kizer started for two years; Jerry earned a law degree from the University of Toledo, in the town where Kizer became an All-Ohio QB.)

Browns fans digested the life stories of Brock Osweiler, Cody Kessler and Kizer while those three made their way in and out of the starting job. Hogan’s biography was not in demand.

In terms of raw football résumé, he is a 6-foot-3 1/4, 220-pound righty who ran a 4.78 40 at the 2017 Combine.


He spent five years at Stanford, including the 2011 season in which he studied quarterback Andrew Luck, the No. 1 pick of the 2012 draft. He became a starter late in his redshirt freshman year of 2012, going 5-0 with a Rose Bowl win over Wisconsin.

Hogan extended his college win streak to 10 in his sophomore year, in which he finished 11-3. His best game was a duel against Cal’s Jared Goff: 329 passing yards, five touchdowns, no interceptions.

ADVERTISING



His junior year, which coincided with Jerry taking a turn for the worse, was his worst. He was 5-5 before beating Goff again, and then winning that UCLA game before Jerry died, and then heading back out for a bowl game against Maryland.

He had a bright senior year, going 12-2. His last two regular-season games were duels against Kizer and Kessler, both wins.

What was Hogan doing all the way out in California after growing up in Virginia and playing high school ball in Washington, D.C.?

It began with an almost accidental recruiting visit from Pep Hamilton, who had become a member of Jim Harbaugh’s Stanford staff during Hogan’s senior year of high school in Washington. The school, Gonzaga, is in the heart of it all. Extra points literally land on the street that is a few blocks from the Capitol building.

“Pep was in the area, and he called wanting to swing by and see Kevin throw,” said Aaron Brady, who was the head football coach at Gonzaga then. “Pep wasn’t even recruiting the area. He just had heard about Kevin. Stanford already had kids committed at quarterback, but Pep wanted to see Kevin.


“He watched him throw. We talked about him. From that day, he was a Kevin Hogan believer.”

Brady was a believer all along. He is fired up about Hogan’s start against the Houston Texans.

“I was shocked Kevin was drafted so low,” Brady said. “I mean, he’s a winner, and he had won in a pro offense at Stanford.

“I guess it had to be his arm strength. And maybe people didn’t really realize how athletic he was, because Stanford didn’t use him that way that much.”

In Hogan’s first NFL regular-season game last year, in relief of an injured Kessler, Hogan ran for 104 yards against Cincinnati. In his most recent game, after replacing Kizer in the second half against the Jets, he completed 16 of 19 passes for 194 yards and two touchdowns. In each of his three relief appearances this season, he has led a touchdown drive on his first series.

Aaron Brady doesn’t sound surprised. The high school coach thought of a game seven years ago, one that convinced Stanford that Hogan might be more than an ordinary recruit.

“DeMatha is a major high school power and was in our league,” Brady said. “Gonzaga hadn’t beaten DeMatha in 11 years. The scores had been pretty outrageous.


“In Kevin’s senior year, we beat them, and we did it on Kevin’s back, through his confidence, through him leading the team that day.

“Near the end of the game we had the ball but still needed one more first down, and the game was over. But it was third-and-11.

“DeMatha called a timeout and everybody said, ‘Run the ball and take our chances.’ Kevin wanted the first down. He wanted to throw it. He convinced me. We hadn’t beaten these guys in 11 years. Let’s take a chance.

“He threw the prettiest comeback route you could imagine. It was a perfect throw. It ended the game.”

Of course, Jerry Hogan was there. Jerry would live to fly to many a Stanford battle across the first three years Kevin started. Everyone in the family understood what it meant when Jerry had to stop coming to the games.

If you know the story, you get the idea you can see it in Kevin’s face now. If you don’t, you might think his countenance strangely placid.

“Kevin internalized everything,” said Brady. “He didn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve.


“He knew his dad was sick, but they didn’t know how long it would be. His dad got some extra time.

“I think he kind of made it about playing for his dad and his family. He didn’t take anything for granted.”

http://www.cantonrep.com/sports/20171014/how-fathers-life-shaped-browns-qb-kevin-hogan

Cancer sucks, I hate it with a passion. tough story.

Beating Goff, Kizer, and Kessler is cool though. didn't know that.

I am really pulling for this kid to be our guy. I hope he can get it done.

Thanks for the read. I think he is our guy.

he will be "our guy"
Tomorrow beyond that we will see.

40
Hogan:4.78
Watson:4.66

Vert
Hogan 32.5
Watson: 32.5

Broad
Hogan 113.0
Watson 119.0

3 Cone
Hogan 6.9
Watson 6.95

20 yard shuttle
Hogan 4.31
Watson 4.31

Hogan and Watson are nearly identical athletes.

He is not the answer.

So, question for the board.

If dude ends up winning us 5-6 games this year.....how do we proceed?

Your guess is as good as anyone's at this point, Peen. There are a lot of things to like about him. A lot. I think some people are actually afraid he could be our guy. If he turns out to be the second coming of Tom Brady, or even just "the guy" a lot of people will look foolish. There's a lot of distance between today's start and becoming "our guy" but I hope he does well. It won't bother me at all if he is.

You draft another QB next year, start Hogan and cut Kessler. You head toward the playoffs with Hogan, Kizer, and the rookie. And the whole world STFU about the Browns. Problem is, the team around him probably isn't good enough to win that many games, even if he is. but we'll see.

If he wins 5-6 games with the crappy tools he has to work with, I think we've found our guy. That said, I have a better chance at a hot tub session with Kate Upton than for this to happen.

But one went to Stanford.

Seems like all the comments from his team mates,the first word is usually smart.I don't think we've had a smart QB since Bernie.
Everyone called Bernie a giraffe behind center,but he could read a defence and knew where the ball should go..
This may be interesting.

We proceed by winning 8-9 games with him next year....

Yep. Forgo the 1st Rd QB and take the best whatever you want. Ideal situation!

drafting a QB with our #1 pick IMO

I can't do it if nobody shows worthy in the next month or so.

Besides, still not sure on this groups evaluation!

ya'll sure we should draft a qb though if Hogan wins 5-6 games this year?

we already have a QB on the roster to groom in Kizer. why not use those first 5 picks and get Hogan some weapons, as well as a decent secondary?

No decision has to be made for 5 months... Why don't we wait and see how it all plays out first... grins. I know .. no fun.. but what the heck

We absolutely should. I don't think people realize what an accomplishment winning 5-6 games with this crappy offense would be...it would have to take well above average qb play to do that. We need some weapons.

If Hogan can become the franchise qb
Then it's a win win for everyone
Hogan has played better in a limited sample better than Weeden Manziel Kizer combined.
I think Hogans football i.q is higher than those 3 combined
It doesnt matter how you get your franchise qb as long as you get it
If it's Hogan then he comes at a very affordable price tag

I was just thinking about what we might do with those picks. I'm thinking QB, WR, CB, LB, and FS. I'm also thinking RB & OT will be closely looked at in the 3rd round. Who knows what they'll actually do, but to me this would be ideal. It's a very deep QB class. It would almost be foolish to pass on one of them. JMHO.

Imagine what this team would look like with say Josh Allen (sitting behind Hogan & Kizer), Equanimeous St. Brown, Tarvarus McFadden, Micah Kiser, Marcus Allen, and Myles Gaskin on our 53.

I was of the Hogan is not a long term solution. Then a funny thing happened. My son whose QB opinion I respect the most, considering I taught him.

He thinks Hogan can be The Guy.
That he watched him closely and likes his accuracy. That like many QBs that GET IT. Will continue to get better. That he n Njoku have that kismet together on the field.

So although he is a Cowboy fan (btw he thinks Dak is not who he thought he was) but he uses words like "us" n "we" when discussing the Browns.

Has asked me to keep an open mind on Hogan...so guess what?

I will do just that...starting today is the Hogan era.

Im not being a homer I feel confident of this game and no I have not been every game...this is the first I am saying we will win This Game. Its my son who bought Hogan n Njoku at what he says is a bargain price in one of these money making fan duel stuff.
All I know is he has a good eye for QB and he is all over Hogan.

Hogan reminds me of a Kirk Cousins, Alex Smith type at this point. I'm not saying he is as good as they are right now but he could be with more playing time. If you surround him with good solid players he could end up being our long term QB. He's got decent size, smarts and good enough arm strength. I don't think Cousins or Smiths arm strength is any better than Kevin's. Well, today will be test #1. Let's hope for the best. We are long overdue for a good break!!

After today, Hogan becomes what, our 28th starting quarterback?


It has to end at some point, doesn't it? Why can't it end with Hogan?

If we love a qb we draft them ... that should have been the plan all along ... REGARDLESS OF HOW ANY OF OUR YOUNG QB’S played this year ...

Judging a kid off his rookie year is FOOLS GOLD ... see Jared Goff for one side of the coin and Kap and RG3 for the other side of the coin ... KH is not a rookie but he is a 2nd year guy making his first starts ... either way its going to be too small a sample size ...

i see what you mean, but hypothetically, if hogan gets us 6 wins or so, we might have to use picks to move up to grab a guy.

i agree about it being fools gold, but shouldn't we consider just going with hogan and kizer into 2018 and use that draft to get offensive weapons?

I’m sure ...

Kizer is not even close to a sure thing ... lord only knows if he will ever develop and if he does how long its going to take ... and no, i am far from writing him off ...

If u love one ... GET UM ...

Math is simple here ... i’d Rather end up with two stud QB then none ... and since we don’t know how the kids are going to turn out even at the end of the season ...

Its going to be another interesting off season ...

we cannot change the past. I never judge the present present with our recent history.
There is only today n tomorrow.

Good point about the 5 or 6 wins and the draft spots ... i didn’t think of that ...

That would make it tougher ... but man .. franchise QB’s are so hard to get ... man ... that makes it a much better question ..

I guess i’d Have to wait and see on that hypothetical ...

To think that he's already altered his throwing motion within a year of training. I think Kevin Hogan is one of those hungry types of dudes. I think he's going to be willing to work very hard over his career. He's already shown that he is working hard. I'd love to have him on the team for how ever long we can keep him. Even if he isn't successful this year. I think he's much more useful to have in the locker room than Kessler.

Nvm

1st pick QB

If Darnold is there, I am running to turn in the card.

Lamar Jackson

Well, thus far, with 44 seconds left in the 1st half, Hogan is not one ounce better than Kizer.

At 11 seconds left, Hogan is picked off again. And we're losing 24 to 3.

Mercy, the end of the 1st half.

The answer is to just draft a QB with every single one of our picks.

RGIII 2

You don’t know that. Besides people tried to say the same about Watson.

I was on the Watson train. Now I’m on the Lamar Jackson train.

And people thought Hogan was better than Kiser??????????

I need another drink

I say draft some females..at least I'll have something to watch.

We need to draft 2 QB's.

Where is Cody kessler?

So is the Hogan experiment over?

I would say yes

I wish I still drank.

I feel bad for all of us fans, this is a freakin' trainwreck.

I feel bad for Hogan too, what a horrible game he had in his moment to shine.

No Kelly Holcomb effect this time 'round.

They just said on TV, "Hogan is no hero." Got that right.

Sometimes a light at the end of the tunnel can be an oncoming train. Case in point.

hue will say he played lights out lol

I feel bad for Kevin Hogan. He's young and inexperienced. He's not a veteran who can step in and step up on a mid-season road game and make magic happen in his first NFL start.

I desperately want to continue liking Hue Jackson, but this was a terrible decision that shouldn't have happened. He got desperate and assumed the grass would be greener.

Hopefully we can get back to Deshone Kizer's development.

Yes

Both guys are merely projects.
Neither has had the necessary time and who is ahead of who is anyones guess. It's hard to really care.

All the things that earned Hogan the start today, particularly his ability to quickly read the defense and get the ball out quickly, were not there.

That's a bit hard to explain unless the moment was just too big for him. He held the ball too long consistently all day.

He quickly read the defense and threw the ball 10 yards above the wr's head.

No...that is unless Hue caves.

I would probably let Hogan play at least one more game, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hue lets him start until the bye week, then puts Kizer back in afterwards.

No matter who the starter is it certainly looking like just a different version of the same crap anyhow, so.... you know. No matter who it's been so far it's tough to stomach.

Hogan really disappointed today.

Tough being a Browns fan.

It sure is. And the sad thing is, our games are at 1 OClock and I am so depressed that I have no interest in watching football for the rest of the week.


No more football for me today folks. Cause i'm just reminded how bad we are

LOL...that didn't go well.

Hogan failed cause being named the starter during the week gives a team time to look at film and prepare to defend him
Coming off the bench cold defense has no time to prepare

There's not enough tape on Hogan for this to be true. The moment was simply too big for him especially after some adversity.

I leave him as starter until bye week. Or is it Kessler time? Or do we go Fish? Kizer is no closer to being viable. This is Hogan's shakedown cruise; Jamar Taylor is still bad, no pressure off the line on their receivers. Peppers has been late to the ball endlessly. Change some of this crap.

Williams needs some change; Hue needs an OC; just painful to watch. How can you not want to stop some of what is killing you game after game?

MKC could stop throwing mud at our team. Her "journalism" is really bad for us. She would be a troll online in some folks' opinions.

I cannot express how much I am looking forward to next week's outing.

Qb talk is over.

It should ne Kizer teh starter until the end of the season, then it should be reacessed

Hogan did play pretty bad this game. His accuracy went out the window for some reason. I'd still give him at least one more game before reverting back to Kizer though. I want to see if Hogan gets past those first game jitters or not.

Either way if we are drafting in the top 5 then we better do whatever it takes to draft the best QB. Then sign, trade, or draft for a true #1 WR. Our offense seriously needs some weapons for whoever is going to be our QB.

Well, I thought Hogan could come in and operate the offense. He started so good. Then he became Kizer when throwing. Saw the person he needed to throw to at least, but you need zero gravity to jump up and catch those balls. Easy INTs I saw before I turned the game, probably threw more by the end.

I mean, what are we going to do? Hogan is good for about five minutes of play lol. I mean, maybe we need to play all three QBs in one game, hahahahahaa.

I don't even know anymore, and not sure I care to know this season.

Kevin Hogan earns F in Cleveland Browns' debacle at Texans: DMan's QB Report

http://www.cleveland.com/dman/2017/10/cleveland_browns_kevin_hogan_d.html#incart_river_index

Hue deserves a F. The FO deserves a F. The players deserve a F.


Time to start over.

NOOOOOOoooooooooooo

Hogan sucked ass, but he really didn't hold the ball too long. In fact, he came out and was throwing the ball on time right off the bat.

His accuracy on the other hand........I yi yi yi!

I'm pretty shocked that Hue didn't call that many RPOs to help Hogan establish a rhythm or to create a mismatch.

Hogan's throwing motion really started to unravel during that game.

At this stage, it don't appear to matter who starts the rest of the season. The QB to help us win, which is clear - decent QB play can move this offense and etc (granted Houston was torn by injuries) but that QB is not here. He's not on our roster.

Hogan's accuracy is just as bad as Kizer's. If we could take Kizer's arm, Kessler's accuracy and Hogan's mind and combine it into one QB, we may have something. We need to invest more in science.

We don't have a qb on the roster who has won a single game.

The QB position was a huge weakness coming into the season and it looks even worse now.


This FO has not done well in choosing qbs.

And what’s worse is we have no other choice but to hope they get it right in 2018

Yep.

Feeling confident? LOL

I agree with the way he started. But as the game wore on he started to hold the ball longer and longer.

When throwing 10+ yards in the air, #Browns QB Kevin Hogan completed 2 of 12 for 33 yards and 2 INTs.

https://twitter.com/PFF_JohnKosko/status/919723644930097152

Is that bad? That seems bad.

I thought Kizer was the worst QB we've started since 1999, then Hogan gave him a run for his money.

We are so screwed.

For real though, we shouldn't judge Hogan off of one bad game (we also may not have the choice).

What, no "hold my beer" jokes?

Sign Kap, he would be a major upgrade.

*Here hold my beer* I got an Idea

Hogan plays better as a backup. Next week I say we Start Jamie Meder at QB We run a QB sneak up the middle for our first play of the game then switch to the backup QB. Problem solved

*Grabs my beer back*

The conspiracy theorists are being proven right with the Browns QB situation.

Kap would probably be an upgrade.

At least the anthem at our games would make the highlight shows.

U mean that our QB situation is so bad it clearly proves that Kap has made himself untouchable for business reasons ... u needed our qb situation to tell u that? ...

These are balls that traveled 10 yards or are these the passes where he sailed the passes 10+ yards over the WRs' heads?

Bringing in Kap would make the dumpster fire even more fueled and crispy. I think this is one aspect of moneyball. Put the crappiest product on the field and make the fans start wondering why they root for this joke.

I don't get the strategy in it, but I'm sure there's one somewhere.

I am judging him because the times he played well was all garbage time. When he started and was actually being pressured by a DEF that has prepped for him, it showed his vulnerabilities. He has good vision, good knowledge of the game, but has a poor arm, inaccurate, and then makes bad decisions.

jc...

Got say this...I HATE FLAT PASSES !!!!!

If a QB is going to throw the ball 20 yds for 3 yd gain...why take that risk?..what could go wrong?...we found out yesterday!

Just throw the damn ball 20yds "downfield"...but not in the flat.

What the hell was wrong with Hogan mechanics, chucking the ball over his receivers by a foot or two?

Don't the Browns have a QB coach capable of telling Hogan..hey, this is what you are doing wrong...you need to do this to fix it.

It was so tough to watch...I recorded the game and stopped watching after the pick six.

This seems very strange to me. He's been accurate in the past, so what went wrong? Was it adrenaline? Did his mechanics suddenly go to crap? Was he thinking the routes were going deeper? Were the receivers not going deep enough? is there anything you saw that might give a clue as to why he failed so totally and so miserable after showing poise and accuracy in his previous outings?

On the positive side, the receivers did a good job catching the ball when it was thrown to them accurately.

Pittsburgh does this very well with AB, the difference is when we do it, we fail to have anyone on that side of the field to block. They usually do it running trips and have blockers for him.

Hogan has an awkward hitch in his throw, I think it has to do with that. Most of the throws that were off, was him muscling the ball as well. He has a weak arm, and on those throws you can really see him trying to muster it in there, thus forcing inaccurate throw.

I don't think its something you can fix with Hogan, he just lacks the talent.

Yeah, this is a ridiculous part of Hue's game calling. I mean WTF? Also, every ball thrown seems to be designed to carry the receiver out of bounds. How about hitting a guy in stride once in a while? How about a freaking eight yard pass over the middle, that travels eight yards, take a second to get there, allows the WR to run away from the defender so he's open, then allows him to run away with the ball because he catches it on the move and can turn up field. Most of what we've seen is bull$#!%.

When your overthrowing you WR every pass, you don't want to go over the middle.

Throw to the sideline and if its overthrown it will go out of bounds instead of in the DB hands.

Really? Then how did those three INTs along the sideline end up in the DBs hands?

I'm not really sure, Cal. If I remember correctly, he came out and was fairly accurate. He threw some outs and comebacks on the money.

Then, he sailed that pick 6 and he went to hell.

I didn't really study his mechanics because I admittedly got frustrated w/the whole "here we go again" mindset. It wears on me.

It appeared that once he threw that first pick, that he began guiding the ball and that he lost confidence. Bad combination. I am not sure that is what happened, but it seemed that way.

That's a bit surprising because he had such a stellar reputation for being strong-minded and being a leader in college.

I think we should probably roll w/him next week. It could be a case of the game getting away from him in his first start.

Here is what galls me: We knowingly went into a season w/three QBs who have never won a game in the NFL. That is almost hard to believe. It doesn't sound very intelligent to me and it should probably be a bigger topic of conversation.

The pick 6 wasn't to the sideline. The other pick was bad decision (overthrew duke who was blanketed). The third pick I believe was a curl route - which was overthrown.

obviously you answered your own question. You asked why we throw to the sideline all the time. we were not doing that until he threw 3 picks !!

+1 on THIS

They knew from day one they were gong to have to start Kizer, who WE ALL knew needed to sit. The FO made the bed, Jackson is just napping in it, and we the fans get left with the sweaty pee stained sheets after watching this nightmare.

I can't remember the third one but the first two were out patterns. The first wasn't quite to the sideline, but it was an out pattern. The second was definitely to the sideline, he under threw Duke.

You can see them here.

My point is, these are harder passes to catch (and throw) than crossing and slant patterns. Hues needs to start thinking in terms of setting his QBs up for success instead of insisting they "run his offense".

Always had crap mechanics in college though. Always led to him being very erratic. His mechanics definitely slipped a lot in that game. However, some of the ints aren't entirely on him. The first one is, absolutely. The second one, was a combination of Bitonio being pushed back into Hogan during the throw, knocking Hogan down, and their LB putting his hand in just the right spot for the ball, when he was just hand mirroring Duke. The last one was on Coates. Lazy route running against Jonathan Joseph. Can't have that. Gotta cut Coates tbh. We got burned on that one.

We should continue to give Hogan the start. At least until bye week. See how it goes. That defense, despite not having JJ and Mercelius, is still a top 3 NFL defense. They're a nasty group of men. Very fun to watch.

I didn't notice Bitonio getting pushed back until you mentioned it. Good catch. Not being able to fully step into the throw certainly helped make that ball fall short.

He was sailing throws well before the pick 6. I kept thinking to myself he needs to settle down because he's going to airmail one for an interception... or two... or three...


I don't know what was up with Hogan. When he came into the second half last week vs the Jets, it wasn't garbage time. We were trailing only 3-0.

I don't like to think this is the best we'll see from Hogan.

His throws were definitely off. I can understand 1 or 3 bad throws but man it was like he forgot how to throw the football all of a sudden. Could have been any number of reasons but will Hue give him a chance to redeem himself? No idea. Another game like that one and his career could be over after this season.

Already saying he's leaning towards Kizer. Guess we'll know Weds, his usual day to announce QB starter lol.

I don't think we'll see Hogan again unless Kizer gets injured.

j/c

I'm simply not sure what people expected.

Once again the fans thought a relief pitcher should be a starter. Once again the back up QB became the most popular player on the roster and once again.... You get the picture.

And once again they want us to fire FO, Coach, everything and blow it all up again - less than two years in......Wash, rinse, repeat.....

No doubt. Let's face it, most everyone in this FO is new to their respective positions. It's pretty much a rookie FO. Hue had one season as an NFL HC when he got here. The team is the youngest in the league.

No don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration everyone is going through. But until we give a group long enough to build a team and implement their plan, nothing will ever change around here.

I don't know if that is a good idea. I said earlier that starting Hogan had more to do w/Kizer not being ready than it did Hogan.

I think Kizer needs to sit for awhile. I don't think throwing him right back in there because "the other guy sucked" is what is best for Kizer's career.

I'd agree with that, and you almost have to see if Hogan's performance is a one-off or if he just can't get the ball down. It would also be nice to see a balanced run/pass attack with throws in the intermediate range that helped the QB hit the WR's in stride and had some success at moving the chains. That would be really freaking nice. Not for nothing, but Hue needs to pull his head out of his ass.

Colin Kaepernick is available.

I thought his accuracy was better in the beginning and got progressively worse as the INTs began to mount. I think it was mostly mental in that he was afraid of throwing more INTs and was trying to throw it in a location where only the receiver could catch it but was greatly erring on the side of caution and ended up throwing it where only the cheerleaders could catch it.

That or he was just overthrowing it, trying to compensate for a lack of arm strength and really trying to put a little extra umph behind it.. that will cause the ball to sail.

Horrible death spiral or catch-22 now. It is worse than a QB controversy because it is a negative mirror of it. We normally have fought over who was better, who was hyped coming in and booed going out at QB. But now it is more like who are we forced to watch next? Kizer stunk it up and managed to avoid showing much growth as we lost the same way multiple times. Enter Hogan who stunk it up worse (if that is even possible) in relief. Now having pulled one for the other, without injury as a reason, which bad man do you start? I assume Kessler will remain inactive and not participate in the musical chairs. Does Hue alternate them as they go on? Play both every game? There is no good metric unless some good can be demonstrated. So given two bad and ineffective choices, which one has the best chance of winning. Can't need to look at much tape or other dodges. One question for him he could answer is "Which one of these losses was different than the other? Any chance something different might happen soon?

Kevin Hogan - QB - Browns

Browns coach Hue Jackson will announce his Week 7 starter at quarterback on Wednesday.
Kevin Hogan was scarcely better than DeShone Kizer in the Browns' latest dismal loss on Sunday. Jackson also claimed Kizer "learned a lot" by watching Hogan and the game unfold from the sideline. Whomever the Browns start at quarterback in Week 7 will have a nonexistent receiver corps and barely functional running game.

Kizer should finish the season as starter. At this point, did Hogan hurt his stock so much, that now Cody takes over as backup...

Nah give Hogan at least until the bye week. We've seen him play better ball, we haven't seen that from Kizer since preseason.

This season is already doomed, so have fun with it. Has been bad, expect more of it I do. One of these two will be a backup maybe. Help them succeed. Call stuff that is not 2 yards ever. Fix the safety. I do not see all this as players.

No to Kessler.

Are you out there? I was wondering if you were going to post in this thread again.

Now after Sunday's game what do ya think?

i didnt like his accuracy at all p4rior n then tried my best to convince myself when he made the start but since its the anniversary of 11 years.

HE IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS!

Back to Kizer...Im really confused why Kessler doesnt get a start???

Because he sucks and refuses to throw the ball farther than five yards?

Not to mention that he holds the ball longer than just about every other qb in the NFL and has looked worse this year than last.

He is like a deer in headlights!!!!!!!!!

That's a bit of an exaggeration don't you think?

Kessler, Hogan and Kizer hahaha. I think crfs said it the other day, we have the worst roster for QBs. Man, they are all pathetic.

"Pathetic", as in they cannot execute the called play? Which would lead me to believe that the play calling is...etc, etc.

Are you saying that play calling is the problem and the QB's accuracy and decision making are not the problems?

Pathetic as in... the play call got someone open and either they missed visually or physically when the ball is lasered miles above their heads.

The play calling don't make a QB throw a bad pass. I'm not always high on Hue's play calling, but we just have bad players at the QB position. We saw we can move the ball when the QB is operating with the "bad" WR core and the "bad" play calling.

Vers, objectively speaking, would you say the play calling is designed to most effectively set the QBs up for success? What's your take on the play calls in general?

I don't think you can classify the play calling as "bad" but I do think it's somewhat inappropriate and ineffective for our talent pool. I get that Hue want to school the QBs in the finer points of his system, but I'd like to see him bring them along more slowly, with more emphasis on the run, and more intermediate routes over the middle designed to hit the WRs in stride. More of a WC offense might be appropriate here. JMHO

Hue does not seem to like using his TE's in the passing game. Look what happened to Barnidge after his banner year...

Not really "bad" per say hence why in quotes and etc, but it seems like I'm mad at the constant passing attempts and the that 4th down dive play really, really angered me.

Said it before and I'll say it again, I'd love to have an OC here. One that sees that if we're running the ball okay, we won't drop back each snap afterwards.

I suppose this is what bbrowns are talking about. Pass happy OC with below average, rookie QBs. But... pass happy as we are, we still have plays able to made, that are not. Most of which is because the QB play with exception of a few drops that are also ugly to see.

All JMO

What I mean by that analogy is that his demeanor looks like he is in fear. That can't be good. You want a guy who knows he can get the job done!

I think play calling is overrated. I think most fans and media types gush over guys when it works and unfairly blame guys when plays don't.

I think most NFL play callers know what they are doing.

There have been a ton of open receivers and our QBs have thrown inaccurately. That isn't the fault of the play design. We have also dropped quite a few passes. Again, that isn't due to a bad play call.

I actually took Njoku in a daily FF league last week. I was watching him as best as I could. He was the primary target on several plays. However, he was covered on every one of them. Most of those plays were over the middle. I think TN knew we would be looking for him and they usually dropped a LBer over the middle and had either a S or an OLBer shadowing him. Then, I come on here and read posters saying that we never tried to get him or the other TEs the ball. That simply is not true.

I also think that you have to be careful throwing a lot of balls over the middle w/young and inexperienced QBs. I know that you understand football pretty well, so I am assuming you know that there is way more traffic in the middle of the field than there is outside the hashes. You have dropping LBers, safeties, corners, and even D-lineman dropping. It's confusing and there are multiple reads and looks. It's hard to process all of that information.

Throwing deeper patterns and throws outside of the hashes reduces the amount of confusion. You typically have the corner and perhaps a safety. It's an easier read, especially if you throw it 10-12 yards plus.

On the other hand, I do think Hue had Hogan throw too many go routes down the sidelines last week. I get that it is safer, but we called too many of them, especially since Hogan was struggling.

I know a lot of people don't want to hear it, but all off-season I was preaching that our QBs and WRs would ensure that our offense would be pathetic this year.

The NFL game has evolved and you simply can't win if you have inferior personnel [whether that be due to talent or experience] at both QB and WR.

I'll tell you what, Cal. If the Browns were able to somehow trade for Jimmy G or draft a true stud QB next year and then add a dynamic WR and a true possession guy......Hue's play calling would not be a topic of conversation.

Thanks for the take Vers. You make a lot of good points, particularly about the traffic over the middle. I'm hoping Haslam holds his water and we land a stud QB and a few playmakers in 2018.

I will say this, that while the QBs and WRs talent is lacking, the entire team needs to learn how to run Hu's offense. I guess it's a matter of him trying to get everyone on the same page, and we're suffering the growing pains while that happens. Winning cures everything, and losing every single game is wearing on us. I still preach patience.

Okay, everyone is making sense this morning. Did I wake up and join a different Dawgtalkers? A portal or something?

hahaha!

Hue's refusal to throw between the hash marks sure makes Game planning easier for the opposing DC !

Yes, he does have a bit a fear in his eyes, I agree.

He's boring to watch play, but is/was our most accurate QB.

I think so too. I'm going to repost this here because it illustrates the point:

https://t.co/k7vlOQwgo7

Courtesy of Dawgs4Life

And increases the chance for CB's to jump the routes. Of course if our WR's don't come back to the ball, then it is apparent what the end result could be. See Jonathon Joseph...

Thanks! Confirms what I believed...

Vers made a good point about the traffic in the middle possibly making it difficult for young QBs to make completions there, but the almost complete lack of throws to the middle, and the disproportionate number of throws deep, and to the right side is very telling. I think there is a problem there that needs to be addressed immediately. Hue needs to tailor his offense so that it becomes more balanced (not with just where he throws but with pass/ run as well) and helps his QB succeed.

JMHO

I think we came out w/a commitment to run the ball on Sunday, but we fell behind by how many? 3 scores? That kinda changes the plan. LOL

I do agree with that, we definitely ran more this past week than we have been. It looked like a solid day running too. And you're right, the score dictated more passing. I guess what I should have said was "continued commitment to balanced run/throw".

The extra man in the box doesn't offer the opportunity for more throws there?

Yeah, I agree..........Just so you know, I wasn't trying to argue w/you. Just making a general comment.

No amount of game planning and play calling can get you over QBs who can't throw the ball and receivers who consistently fail to get open or catch the ball when they do.

I'd have to look at film, but I don't think teams have been stacking the box as much this year. But yes, if they were, and you can find a lane, it would open up the middle.

I know. I thought it was a good point that we did run more this past week. It was effective, IMHO.

I just have to say that I love that the guy who wanted Hogan to start the most of anyone has gone radio silent on the subject since the Texans game.

He’s a good dude ... give him a break .. he’ll be back to face the music ... besides, he still may be drunk or hungover ... *L* ...

Beside, he was far from the only Hogan advocate. There were very few detractors after game five.

What's the point of this other to bash the guy?

What about all the guys who were talking about how we would win 6, 8, or even more games this year? We could go on forever and forever w/this.

Heck, we could identify the poster who made fun of anyone who thought we would play a Mike and who insisted over and over and over that our Mike would only play 5% of the snaps. You feeling me? LOL

I don't think it's fair to single out 101.

I was pretty clear I wanted Hogan to have a shot at starting. I'm not sure if you're referring to me or not. I still think it was good to let Hogan start and it would be good to see him start a second game. I say that knowing full well he stunk it up against Houston.

I think he should get more than one game the same way Kizer did. I mean hell it was his first full game in the NFL and we have seen him play way better. I think he just put too much pressure on himself and it messed him up mentally to the point his technique regressed. There is no other reason I can think of as to why he would suddenly start throwing so bad.

I mean it's not like Kizer will do much better so I'd like to see if Hogan can improve with another week of practice with the ones. If he still sucks it up then give it back to Kizer with the understanding that we will probably draft #1 or #2 in the draft and this draft better yield some offensive weapons for a change.

We could make fun of Akron Joe and his Hillis/Ham sandwich cracks....oh, wait, he turned out to be right.

Oh no he didn't Hillis was a nice steak sandwich, not a cheap ham sandwich.

hoowee!!!!

ok I can say Hogan played the exact opposite of what he has been showing.

omg that was painful to watch and swallow.

I do still want to see a few more games with him, and see if he overcomes that game or folds.

was in my closet the last few days drinking beer with the door shut.

I am glad he is starting again this week. Colin Kaep. is better than we have seen so far in a full game this year...and that ain't saying much.

id take cody about now...he can find a reciever and on time..kessler is accurate at least

I still want to see more or Hogan...although that last game was painful as hell to watch.

I have seen him look tons better...let's find out who Hogan really is.

I think I want to see him play at least 3 or 4 more games if not more. He has played better and it showed. except for that last game.

I agree with you. Kizer needs to sit awhile longer. Give hogan a home game and another week of practice. We've seen him play well. Kizer isn't ready and him sitting just one week is almost nothing.

Sitting Kizer for one week does mean nothing. How much can he learn in one week. he will not have some magical mental break through.

through five games Kizer only got worse.

it is next to impossible for Hogan to be worse than what I saw last sunday.

and the Titans are a beatable team for us this week imo...then again I thought we should be 3-3 at this point in the season.

Cody is career backup at best. There is a reason he wears street clothes on Sundays.

Is it no longer okay to make jokes?




That was me and I have said I was wrong on several occasions (I also think us playing three linebackers all the time is part of the reason we can't stop anybody from passing).

and hogan is not a backup?

I think we need to see more of Hogan before we label him a career back-up status.

can I be both drunk and hungover at the same time? lol...I think that's where I am at.

I AGREE ... problem is right now Kizer and Hogan are playing like career stock boys ... right now the other two don’t remotely resemble NFL qb’s of any level ... so playing like a career back up at best would be an upgrade ...

Seriously, IF it could be worse ... how much worse would that be ... i mean does it really get any more unwatchable?

Browns fans would just call that continuity. Keep drinking until it gets better. Hogan should get another half at least. Hedll, Kizer got five stinkers. Bring back Hoyer.

I know that most of the posters on this board hated the guy, but we should have started Brock this year.

I am not sure who is responsible for cutting him {Hue or Sashi} but whomever it was made a very stupid move.

We would still suck, but we might be able to at least develop other players. The current QB position is the worst in the league That is saying something because there are some bad situations out there.

I've brought this up a few times and most keep ignoring it, but how smart was it to have 3 QBs on the roster who have never won an NFL game? Combine that w/the fact that you are young and inexperienced almost everywhere else and what else would you expect to happen?

Oh yeah, "the play calling is stupid."

I agree we should have kept Brock and I believe I said that in a post during preseason. I know Brock wasn't playing well but he did have experience and could have mentored our young QB's. Also, he would have taken the lumps on a bad team instead of getting DK hurt or ruin his confidence. Not to mention we were paying him anyway. We need a real football guy to make these decisions.

can you believe we were 5-3 or so with hoyer?

7-3

We also were running Shannahan's offense that utilizes roll outs bootlegs and play action.

I think I have seen 3-4 play action plays this season from the Browns.
The best OC we have had since '99 and he coudn't get out of here fast enough.

#factoryofsaddness

id take 3-7 right now...lol

j/c...I know I mentioned Kessler then there came a bevy of negatives on Kessler and actually presented as facts of this year.

Sorry I haven't seen Kessler play an NFL game this year. Preseason? We were 4-0 preseason which I guess means you haven't seen Kessler in an NFL game this year. So my question still stands and none of ya have seen him play this year to make the remarks that you did. BO started game one and two...Kizer game 3 and beyond.

That is all I'm saying...Hogan will not get another start...he is good in mop up time that is it. I still am confused on why we don't see Kessler. Again he is the only accurate QB we got on the team.

jmho

im pro kessler. he knows the offense and throws the britt ball he likes

i think hue is scared to go with kessler because the team likes him as a leader. like people will start to take sides and make the locker room decisive.

we were hoping for more from kizer. cody looked better his first year...weak arm but could dink and dunk with the best

Yep, that's it.

HUH?????

BO STUNK ... HE STINIKS ...

No one was harder on him than me ...

I thought cutting him was dumber than cutting Haden and Grecco ... and i think BO’s worse at QB than they were at there positions ....

As bad as he is .. BO should have been our starter ... to me, the choice should have been BO, CK or Hogan .... Kizer should not have even been an option ... BO played less bad then the other two IMO ...

The key to me is who is responsible for that decision ... and as u pointed out we don’t know whose decision that was ...

Its become appearant since then that Sashi gets final say over the 53 with what happend with Haden and Grecco and the reaction by Hue ... HOPEFULLY Sashi took Hues input on that .. but WHO KNOWS ...

This is a real mess .. and once again u have to wonder what the hell Haslam did ..

What kind of a structure did he create here .. it seems to be a really DUMB ASS STRUCTURE to have a lawyer being the ultimate decision maker on personal decisions ....

Thats just RETARDED ... it makes NO SENSE ...

Grrrrrr ... HASLAM SUCKS ASS!!!!!!!!!

Actually the QB mistake was releasing McCown...BO is not good period.

jmho

Well, we agree on something. And in this case, it sucks that we do because it don't look good for the Browns.

I did have a thought that is really scary. What if Sashi and Hue are actually in agreement on moves such as cutting BO, going w/3 qbs who haven't won an NFL game, starting Kizer, then benching him, then thinking of starting him a game later, etc?

the funny thing is we are paying BO almost 900,000 a week to play somewhere else...we are that bad

I agree on BO my friend ... and in hindsight u could be right about McCown ... but damm tabber .... HE AIN’T MUCH BETTER than BO ...

McCown is a natural loser...but he is the reason the Jets are winning I think we have a better team than they do.
BO again will never be accurate enough to be an NFL starter.

I am home now but am in a fog with the pain killers. Got to go raise my leg.

I got Staples going up from below my left calf all the way to my groin. 106 staples...52 staples in 3 sections of my right leg...and still recovering from surgery last year that is right ankle and lower right calf. But at least none of this is weight bearing so should recover fairly fast. I give it 2-3 months. I'll be able to do normal things again.
Got my holloween costume...lol

We agree on a lot more than u think Vers .. just a few examples ...

- i don’t want Hue fired ... not even close ...
- i dont let the fo off scotch free ... they have WARTS ALSO ..
- im pretty sure that we agree HASLAM IS THE PROBLEM at the end of the day .. hes the reason were here ..

Am i wrong on the last one? ...

It really sucks for us ... the amazing part is .. just when u think it can’t get worse .. it does ..

I did have a thought that is really scary. What if Sashi and Hue are actually in agreement on moves such as cutting BO, going w/3 qbs who haven't won an NFL game, starting Kizer, then benching him, then thinking of starting him a game later, etc?

Thanks .. i hadn’t thought of that yet ... *LOL* ...

Thats really scary Vers ... especially when u consider that right now ... as bad as this years is and is going to continue to be ... WERE LOADED WITH PICKS AND CAP SPACE ... we have a shot to be really really good in 2 or 3 years if they do this right ...

He needs to hire a football guy ... something else i believe u and i agree on ... i know i said it the day he hired sashi and followed with depo ... and i’d be stunned if u weren’t saying the same thing .... it made sense back then and it makes even more sense now ...

No?

Thats an odd start to defending the guy u support .... *LOL* ...


but he is the reason the Jets are winning I think we have a better team than they do.
BO again will never be accurate enough to be an NFL starter.

I dunno tabber .... u think he would have won a few games here? .. i dunno bro .. not sure i see that ..

We may have a better overall team than them ... but they have more experience and better players at the skill positions ... i dunno bro ..

U could be right .. not that i can make a good case against with what we have ..

I am home now but am in a fog with the pain killers.

Glad your home bro ... get well soon sir ...

Season is over already.
Just enjoy it and bet against the browns every week and smile.
The extra income cures everything.

Yeah, we agree on a lot, including we both think each other is an ass. LOL

But yeah, I really believe Haslam is the biggest problem. There are reasons why we've had so much dysfunction and Shanny writing a 34 point letter to Haslam asking to be released. LOL

And yes, I think we have needed a football guy to have a more prominent role, but the answer I used to get is that we haven't won w/football guys before. LOL.....

I always thought that made a lot of sense. For example, I went a dentist who didn't put my crown on right, so I thought about what the guys on this board said and decided not to go to another dentist, but instead went to a sheet metal shop and asked the drill press operator to work on my teeth. Then, I took my tax information down to an auto shop because I was unhappy w/the job last year's tax guy did.

Oh..............gotta run. The IRS is calling.

...and after that you went to see Joe Banner for some charisma training?

Hey that's my move.

#stopshort

I totally agree that I wanted Brock to start. My pipedream grand scenario was that Brock would start & look like a solid QB and then Kizer would sit & learn and when he was ready, make it possible to trade Brock, assuming DK would look good and have success. Obviously that would take time, more than one season. Hey, a guy can dream can't he?

As Browns fans all we have is dreams. Reality kicks us right in the you know what's

You are a very fair poster and are good for the board.

I agree Vers! But on a side note; what does that same standard that say about you?

To Hue's credit, I think that was his plan, too. But that changed given how greatly Brock struggled during the preseason.

Your established veteran quarterback can't go 12/22 for 67 yards and 1 int in the preseason. Not when Kizer and Hogan both had incredibly successful preseasons that included game-winning heroics.

There were rumours that Hue wasn't exactly thrilled the front office chose to cut him loose, but the three young quarterbacks on the roster all moved the ball much better than Osweiler did.

Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time I don't think Osweiler played at a high enough level to warrant both being given the starting job and cutting a young quarterback.

YUP IT'S THAT TIME AGAIN LOL

Kevin Hogan will be inactive vs. Titans with bruised ribs, but hopes to redeem himself

He was demoted to No. 2 when DeShone Kizer was reinstated Wednesday as the starter for Sunday's game against the Titans, then to No. 3 behind Cody Kessler because of bruised ribs suffered during Sunday's 33-17 loss to the Texans.

"My thinking with Cody was because obviously, Kevin (is injured)," said Jackson. "They're pretty bruised in my opinion. ... I'm not going to put (an injured) guy out there or let him go through the week.''

Hogan was listed as a full participant on the injury report Wednesday, but the ribs were a factor.

"It was tough,'' said Jackson. "He was running a ball today. ... Sure enough, he was trying to be tough and prove that he's ready to play. He gets hit right on the spot and drops the ball and everything.

"I think I have a pretty good idea of what a guy can do and what a guy can't do, and I don't think he is ready to be out there right now."


Jackson indicated Hogan would be his backup QB if not for the sore ribs, damaged on one of his four sacks and seven hits in Houston. Hogan in obvious pain after the game when he tried to put on his sport coat, but X-rays were negative.

"Kevin has fought his tail off," said Jackson. "Last week, obviously, didn't go as well as he would like or I would like, but I have also said to all of you that Cody would get his shot at some point. I am going to stick Cody in there as the backup quarterback this week and go from there."

One play away from playing, Jackson said he believes Kessler has improved from last season.

"In camp, there were some things that he was definitely doing better,'' he said. "Obviously, I thought Kevin was a little ahead at the time. One thing about Cody, he has never quit working. He has never complained. He has never let any of that bother him.

"I told him that day when I made the decision that Kevin was the backup that 'at some point in time you will get your opportunity, too,' and that's what I'm going to do. I'm pretty much a man of my word that way. ... This opportunity happened for several different reasons, but I think it's the right one for Cody at this time."

Kizer returns from benching that 'sparked my competitive juices'


Hogan, who threw three first-half interceptions against the Texans and emerged with a 38.1 rating, admitted he was disappointed not to earn another start.

"I felt like I could've done things better,'' he said. "I wanted to go in there and try to get a win, but it didn't go as I planned and I can't do anything but get back to work and continue improving. I made a lot of good strides this year, and I'm just going to keep building on those. I'm always going to be ready."

Hogan admitted that his mindset was different than when he came in off the bench for Kizer and produced 31 points in 10 series.

"At times I was definitely overthinking it and instead of just keeping things simple and kind of worrying about they were doing vs. what we were doing,'' he said.

One of the biggest things he learned was not to let the defense dictate his game and his mechanics. Hogan was high and wide much of the day, and it led to the some of the three picks.

"If it seems like a guy's sitting on a route, maybe work away from that vs. if there's D-linemen running around with their hands up, don't let that affect how I throw the ball," he said. "That was my interception to Duke (Johnson, the 82-yard pick six). The D-lineman was running around with his hands up and I tried to get it over him and I just can't let that affect me.''


Hogan said, "I've just got to throw it the way I do as if he's not there and if he gets his hands up, then that's a good play by him. You just have to do what you do."

Until he gets another chance, he'll help Kizer the same way the rookie helped him.

"He was in here early this morning going over the practice script and I know he's going to go back out there and do great and both Cody and I will be there to support him all week and we're going to try to get a win,'' he said.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/kevin_hogan_will_be_inactive_v.html

I still got my hopes up that I will see him play again at some point this year

"Until he gets another chance, he'll help Kizer the same way the rookie helped him.

"He was in here early this morning going over the practice script and I know he's going to go back out there and do great and both Cody and I will be there to support him all week and we're going to try to get a win,'' he said."

Class "A" dude. I still really like this kid.