It seems like we'll have an offensive coordinator next year. edromeo has posted several guys who he thinks might fit (Mike McCoy, Bill Lazor, Norv Turner, and some others). Any other ideas?

My guess is that we promote David Lee to offensive coordinator and then hire a new QB coach.

Maybe we promote Al Saunders.

On the offensive side of the ball Hue seems to want guys that he has worked with in the past.

Did I miss something...I know a lot has been going on in the last 18 hours. When was this revealed that we will be going to an OC???

David Lee to offensive coordinator wouldn't surprise me.


Although another idea would be Ben McAdoo. I'd take him over Norv Turner

it hasn't yet. so far as I know Hue said "might".

Thanks, ok its from Hue's mouth then it has meaning.

As I said I find it hard to believe that he will give up play calling but I always thought he needed a young up comer OC to coordinate our execution. As HC it is impossible for Hue to put the attention to details in the daily Offensive structure.

jmho

Yes, could be

I think Hue will bring in another guy to help, but Hue will still call the plays.

I'm sure I'm the minority here, but I would prefer Hue to continue calling plays. No doubt he has to improve, but I think he can.

I do not want the Playbook to change. The Vocabulary to change. If we bring in an experienced in control OC we change the system.

I think if we bring in an up and comer young guy who will be willing to be mentored by Hue and his system. Learn the vocabulary, learn the playbook. Be involved in the Game plan and most important be strongly involved in the execution of the play book and game plan. This way Hue can continue to call plays the young OC grow into the Offense and then maybe a couple years down the road without much change take over the play calling and the reigns.

For example...a guy like Chud back in the day when he was our TE coach but showed a future in Offense. Getting somebody like that to make the jump. From young position coach who is a good teacher. That is who I would want.

A Norv Turner type would bring in an entirely new system for all to learn.

jmho

Definitely agree.

As I mentioned on the other thread, my favorite off that list is Bill Lazor, but that assumes Cincy lets him go.

I don't want wholesale changes either...what I DO want is for Hue to playcall in a way that these inexperienced guys can handle.

Our offense is putrid and I don't think the only answer is time/experience. Square peg round hole will work if you beat the peg long enough...but that's not the way to go about it.

Agreed... right now stability is most important. Even it its only going to be just for one season. lol.

Cincy's looked MUCH better since he's been there calling them

Can we possibly add a draw play , a screen play , use the middle of the field more ; just for starters .. Hue has started to hit the middle a little more lately ; give credit where credit is due ! Student body right and left , pull you guards an center from time to time and run the ball MORE .

is a screen that thing where the other team's RB generally kills us?

Without looking at stats, that's the way it seems to me also. And our offense appears to be more effective for doing so...

Yep

And Yep !

Agreed. I think Hue's play calling, schemes, and design are fine.

I also agree w/what tab said. Continuity is important. No need to bring in a guy who wants to change things. That would be more of a negative.

Hire someone who can dedicate more time to the position during practice, but keep everything else the same.

Folks have short memories ... VERY SHORT MEMORIES ..

They’ll be ICE SKATING in HELL before Norv ever works for the thief again ..

I almost passed out laughing when i read that suggestion ...

Just a guess but I'm thinking no way Norv returns to Cleveland after the way he was fired after one year in that Role.

Wasn't McAdoo just fired by the Giants? Same guy right?

Not sure that's a good idea...

Well a draw play is almost every run we do from Shotgun cause our QB simply cannot function AT ALL UNDER CENTER!!!

Screen Pass...when a team is playing run its hard to do a screen pass.

Usually its 3rd and long when teams dial up their blitzes and that is the best time to utilize a screen but 3rd and long its hard to expect that 8--13 yards we need for the first.

First things first - Stretch the field, get two deep, run the ball, pass under neath crossing routes, teams get desperate and then blitz too much that is when your Screen works.

btw just who have we faced that became DESPERATE to over due the blitz...why other teams have success against us. Cause we are almost certain desperate just about every game!

jmho

You want to talk bassic's ?? Tell your pal Hue to keep a TE in to help Durango when your in third and long on your own 10 yard line !!! Back to back Sundays I watched that exact situation blow up because of Coaching .. Eo ; I admit I am not a Hue Fan .. I figure he dosn't call some plays and use certain parts of the field due to lack of trusting his players to execute properly .. Why are the players on the field ??

Cause we all know how well putting 2 guys into the route works...lol

Durango has not been dismal for that kind of action but sure we could have a chip there. And what games do you watch cause MANY OCCASIONS I SEE our TE/s in there pass blocking.

Mostly it Devalve but I guess you missed the time Njoku just totally messed up and got Kizer killed (Rib Injury)

Players are on the field either due to injury or that is who we got...not too many veterans and a lot of young guys getting their feet wet.

Hue is not bad at all. Play calling is good. Routes have WRs open even our sucky ones.

Middle of the field ya think we don't have routes there?

So the two times we had guys in the middle of the field we hit on them 100% completion? We have guys in the middle of the field pretty much every time we have 3 or more in the route tree.

I don't like the success of ONE WIN...but its frustrating as heck you can see it during the games.

With seconds winding down the half and we are on the 3 yard line with no timeouts...your QB audibles to a QB sneak...come on man. Kizer is bad very bad and we have no other options as he is the best we got right now. How many play calls or execution that some blame Hue but is it really Hue.

When your QB is like 30% completion in the Red Zone and Under 30 within the 10 yard line. There is a reason why we are struggling to score points and it has nothing to do with HUE!

jmho

I don't know how keeping one , a, singular , TE on the left side to help the LT gives us a two receiver set ?? think there are 11 players on the O .. We will just have to differ on Hue as an OC .. And no I am not throwing Hue under the Bus in the Red Zone .. He do call some head scratches though ..

Eotab, we talkin' about the same Hue that called 17 runs against the worst run defense in the NFL? And 40 pas plays agains a top rated pass defense? That guy?

I like that idea. Maybe Hue's clock wrangling improves in red zone. Just kick FG every time we get past the 30.Just dumber the closer we get to the end zone. Not crazy about Norv. Open to ideas post-sushi.

Hue sucks

What an insightful post.

Can you tell us how many teams w/a right handed qb typically line up a TE on the left side?

There's beauty in simplicity

Pretty much all of them but not on every play.

Ha!!!!

Thanks ; but don't bother , not worth it ..

If I were calling a 3rd and long play from my own 10 and my LT was having a hard time " I ' would keep my TE in hopes of buying some time and making the play successful

The situation occurred back to back weekends and the result was disastrous booth times .. I am not big on Hue for specific reasons and they keep adding up .. Now I would love for him to be successful !

Don't bother? Not worth it? I was trying to answer your question.

I'm going to ask you to watch some games this weekend and take note of how much more TEs line up on the right side than they do the left.

You know what would make Hue a great play caller? Saquon Barkley in the backfield, Joe Thomas healthy, a new QB or an improved Kizer throwing to Josh Gordon, Corey Coleman and a second round WR and our improving young tight ends.
Hue has made plenty of mistakes, but he has not lost the team and he is not incompetent. Yes, get him an OC. But we don't need wholesale changes on the field. We need to nail the draft and let our young guys get better.

Yes, we definitely need to get guys that fit Hue's system. He has said over and over he doesn't tailor his offense to the players, they need to fit it.

And people think we are losing due to lack of talent. If you're going to force your system on players it's going to take time. Much easier to adjust your system to the players. You might actually see a win if you did this.

You lost. Deal w/it.

We all lost.

So, if Hue doesn't get the exact QB he needs for this system, and the Browns continue to lose, that's it? The fans just have to wait until the perefect one shows up? That makes so little sense.

What makes you say that? Misinformation from other posters who are bad-mouthing? Or, did Hue say that himself?

Whichever offensive coordinator is hired would have to already know or be willing to learn Hue's verbiage.

I believe Hue runs the 'digit' system Coryell based?

Norv is from that same system he would be ideal for me.

Someone mentioned McAdoo...but he comes from a different system and would have to learn Hue's system and Hue's way to pass focused for me and he comes from a philosophy (west coast) that is very different from Hue.

I'm for no system change either.
I'd like to see Hue's plate emptied a bit though. If he will accept it or not would be my concern. These types of issues are the beginnings of power struggles. Bruised egos aren't productive.

https://twitter.com/clevelanddotcom/status/939187062682607618

The link has the video of Hue and his full quote. Does he reference QB specifically, no. But he says he needs players to fit the coaches' talent.

Personally, I thought it worked the other way around.

I think that is correct.

This is why I've been saying we shouldn't expect Hue to out coach anyone. We haven't seen it to date and there's no reason to expect it. I would prefer a coach that's a little more cerebral than rigid in their systems and styles.

But at this point, just win. I don't care how they do it and who's calling the shots, just give us something to cheer for. Jackson, Dorsey, the next guys, whoever. Wake me when we start winning.

Or Haslam sells the team. He says he wants to deliver a winner to the Browns but just can't seem to se that he's the biggest issue and just remove himself from the equation. Still have three guys that will be pining for daddy's love now. I just don't see how that ends well.

I think this is like drafting BPA vs drafting for need. If you draft players for a coach's specific scheme, and that coach doesn't pan out, you start all over again. It's a risk. One I wouldn't take with Hue as HC. It'll be interesting to see how Dorsey operates.

j/c:

I think a small group of posters are doing all they can to smear Hue. It may seem like a "majority," but it isn't. They just post a lot.

I think Hue has had success w/different types of QBs. He's had qbs like Palmer, Jason Campbell, Andy Dalton, Flacco, and even had AJ McCarron playing well in Cinci.

I questioned if he was a truly great QB Whisperer when he got here. I questioned his qb talent evaluation. Got chastised big time for both questions. But now, some people are being far too one-sided w/their attacks on Hue.

I think it's pretty simple. Give him the talent and he will look good. It's not as complex as some are pretending it to be.

I think we are going to have a GM and a HC who will work together.

Hue has called up some interesting concepts and playcalls that were excellent.

And Hue has been a very good coordinator and playcaller in other places.

But, I agree that Hue didn't out coach the other team that often.

And I know i'm beating a deadhorse but a HUGE reason imho was lack of coaching hours.

A full offensive staff assign each coach a segment of the offense to coach and oversea. For example:

QB coach:nickel pass, blitz pick-up
WR coach: red zone passes
RB coach: Gen run, SY-GL-RZ run, 4 minute,
TE coach: Reports, self scout, opp analysis,
OL coach: Gen run, SY-GL-RZ run, 4 minute

The OC puts it all together and sometimes gameplans/coaches a certain segment: e.g. 3rd down passing etc + analyze all game situations, game plan outline, routine sheets, scripts, playcalling,

Then Hue does all the HC stuff.

Sigh....


I don't think there are posters trying to "smear" Hue's name. I think there are posters voicing legitimate concerns. Meanwhile, the rest of everybody feels we got that "football lifer" in the front office and everything is hunky dory.


I wouldn't expect you to understand because your opinion is always right.

Just wondering why you think that?? That isn't a snarky comment....just wondering why.

Not too hard to figure out. Dorsey took the job and was okay w/Hue being here. If he wasn't, he either would not have accepted the job or he would have fired Hue. There would not have been an announcement that Hue was returning next year.

Additionally, he talked about getting players to fit the coaches.

Ok....we'll see.If we don't start to win some games, that working together thing goes out the window pretty quickly.

I think even Hue undertands that he got a bye last year and he created one this year.

He isn't getting one next year.

I think Dorsey looks for good, tough football players who love football. I think those types of players fit most coaches schemes. That's how I anticipate Dorsey will operate. After all, he will want those players to still be here in 2019 even if Hue is not.

JMHO

I don't see drafting players to fit the coach, especially one who has the worst record ever in his 1st 28 games.

The coach better coach to the players his GM gives him. Hue isn't good at that. I am convinced we would have a much better record if Hue actually ran the ball. We have a good offensive line and good backs, but Hue panics. Not a good trait in a head coach.

Regardless of Haslam's proclamation and Dorsey's endorsement, Hue's seat just got hotter, IMO. Haslam is troubleshooting, swapping components to see if it fixes the problem. If this move doesn't fix it the next component to get swapped will be the coach.

Lacking an OC, who else would there be? I don't want to see anyone fired, but with our record and half-empty stadium, Haslam is stirring the pot. Hue is safe through the end of this season and whether he is still here at the start of next, we will find out in a month or so...

Yep, that guy and guess what you are no where as smart as you think you are but I see you can read stats pretty good. I actually watch the games and not determine what happened via stats.

No one knows if Hue's seat is hotter than it was. Come on.

The evidence points in the opposite direction no matter how many times people on here try to lobby for Hue being fired.

I feel I did

This is one of the things that has me torn on Hue and the fo. Hue has not gameplanned for his lack of talent at the receiver position. He simply has failed horribly here. He hasnt gameplanned for the poor play at QB. He fails horribly at making in game decisions based on injuries or QB with a blinding migrane.

The FO didnt give Hue the things he needs to run his offense. His offense needs playmakers at the receiver position. You cant work for the huge play just to have it bounce off the receivers hands. Hue is brilliant with his design but it doesnt do any good to have a guy streaking free up the sideline whenhe is just gonna drop it. Hue will run 2 plays to set up the one money ball play. it becomes wasted.

Receivers suck, QB sucks but we have talent at TE and RB. A good coach would have gone to more 2 TE sets, focused on the run and using playaction to get the ball to your te or rb or the one receiver who got upfield.

I would have canned both Hue and Sashi but if you get Hue better receivers, he will win you games.

No one knows better than Haslam how much effort Hue has given, to win with the talent he's had to work with.

...as much as some would like to see Hue fired, it does not look as if that is in the immediate plan. Sometimes, just a few changes can affect a team's performance.

These changes have been MAJOR and I'm hoping our team will react with a better performance. Hopefully all our fans want the same thing..a win.

Did you forget to use purple?

Lot's of personal shots.

Nice post.


You fail to metion QB play, but then again, any coach with half a ass who has a good QB and good receivers is going to win a feew games.


You bolster my point. Why keep slamming your head in to the wall throwing the ball when you have a good O-line and pretty darn good backs.


You could give Hue a backfield of Jim Brown and Emmett Smith in their prime and both wouldn't get 20 carries combined.

Hue doesn't understand that running is a investment. John Riggins is my prime example. John wasn't a gifted back. He was just a big rugged kid who ran hard. He had some speed, but nothing great. He had no no real moves, but he did have a little wiggle to his game. I mean a little. He just ran like a brick tossed your in your face..

But Joe Gibbs knew that if he fed John the ball over and over, the D would tire and his O-line and John wouldn't.

At halftime, Riggo might have 38-40 yards on 15 carries. At games end he would have 140 yards on 30 carries. All of a sudden a tired D who gave up 4 yards on a play in the first half gave up 9 yards on the same play in the 2nd half, plus a 20 yarder along the way.


Running is an investment. You can't just pick and choose when a 30 yard gain is going to happen. It just happens.

Offensive Coordinator thread, lol.

Oh, snap! Wow! You laid a burn on me! Whatever will I do now? Listen, internet forum tough guy, you can!'t hurt me with you typing, so shut it.

I stand by what I wrote, bro. We'll see how it plays out.

That right there likely sums up the opinions of many people who are not sold on Hue being the "right" HC. The Hue apologists - who demand absolutely no criticism of Hue - will not even respond to what you posted. What you posted there cannot be denied.

I don't think that means he should be fired. But he's culpable in this as well.

Scratching my head in confusion.......If you admit that the receivers suck and you think the coaches suck....then why do you expect a raw rookie QB to play to be immune from all the dysfunction you named around them?

Good post, Mourg. I agree the FO didn't provide him with all the weapons on offensive Hue needed. Maybe Coleman would have been further along if it wasn't for the two injuries but we'll never know. It boggles my mind the little usage, until recently of Njoku with no Coleman and Gordon. Or the punting the running game early for two years now. I think with more weapons any HC will do better. It seemed like we had the defense squared away minus a CB and FS. The offense is next. Tons of picks in 2018 to shore that up and grab the QB Dorsey (and perhaps Hue) wants.

j/c:

Getting back to the OC thing. I think Hue will bring one in. It might have even been part of the conversation when we hired Dorsey?

I don't think it would be a good idea to bring in a high-profile guy like Norv, though.

I like Hue's schemes and play calling. I just think we need an OC to handle the workload during the week.

What do you think of the possibility he'll promote Al Saunders?

Yes, Hue is a very good OC based on what he did in Cinci and has flashed elsewhere. The issue isn't with his ability as an OC - it's about giving Hue the time to concentrate 100% on being the HC. . . . The one issue I have is that as the Browns play caller with a rookie QB, just like last year, he has called way too many pass plays ... I understand some of that is a reflection of the team and the score during games, but we've passed more than we needed to.

LOL............I was considering asking you guys about that.

Has he ever been an OC before?

The guy has a great rep as a true professional. He knows the game. He has a ton of experience. He certainly understands the passing game. He's been w/Hue for 2 years now. I think he gets the Coryell offense, but I'm just guessing on that last one.

Like I said, Hue is known for being a good offensive coach, so I really don't want to take that away from him.

Also, I am a big fan of continuity. It would help our young players to stay in the same system.

It's a logical choice. He has been an OC, a couple times. Ironically (or maybe just coincidentally), with the Chiefs, and with the Rams. He was also head coach for the Chargers.

sounds great and all but any offensive coordinator worth it or up and comer would never leave their situation to come to a potential lame duck coach who most likely wont give up play calling

Naming Al Saunders would only be a slight change and reshuffling of duties.

It would be better then the current situation but not by much. I don't know how familiar you are with the breakdown of coaching duties. But, Al would already be assigned a certain area to prepare. If he were made the OC he would still have to prepare his section in addition to all the OC duties which are vast.

Ideally I would like to add a OC to the staff not promote someone from within. Bring someone in that:

- either knows the digit/Coryell system OR is willing to learn it as opposed to installing their own verbiage-philosophy

- want someone who won't butt heads with Hue; that may limit the pool to OC that are okay with preparing the offensive gameplans, running the meeting/practice etc AND are okay with Hue calling the plays on gameday

- if it was possible to bring in someone with proven experience in producing an effective offense like Norv Turner. But that someone like Norv brings their own complications to an already delicate situation....if the OC is too experienced it provides the GM someone to take over the team IF Hue would be fired. The new OC has to be someone loyal/wouldn't butt heads with Hue

- Here are some of the guys that pop up in my mind that are available:

Norv Turner (can't see someone of Norv's ilk being the coordinator but not playcaller)

Mike McCoy (coordinator, possible playcaller)

Ken Zampese (coordinator only, non-playcaller)

Greg Olson (coordinator, possible playcaller)

Jeremy Bates (coordinator only)

Byron Leftwhich (QB coach)






I posted this earlier from how Bill Walsh's staff was setup:

The simple truth is that Kizer was never supposed to have success. This wasn't a reasonable situation for any young quarterback to have success, much less the guy who fell in the draft because he needed time and development. If he was expected to have success, it was done so with realistic expectations and a disregard for reality.

That's my feeling as well.

The Kizer 'blame' doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't make sense how some have already come to the conclusion that Kizer isn't the guy. Not only was he a rookie...but a raw that most agreed should learn on the bench before playing. Instead Kizer started due to personnel shortcomings. But additionally, again due to personnel short comings, was playing with one of if not thee worst WR corps in the league.

It doesn't help that Hue's treatment of him with the benchings have already diminished the public perception of Kizer, not to mention that Kizer being a 2nd round pick as opposed to a 1st round pick affords him less leeway.

And Hue the HC hasn't done his best work as an Offensive Coordinator gameplanner/playcaller.

But many people/fans have concluded that Kizer isn't the guy.

And Haslam reportedly swayed by fan opinion. And with a new GM in tow that may want their own QB....I get the feeling that Kizer will bear the brunt for this season and they will divert a valuable early pick to the next QB.

The more I think about the more I doubt whether all this is going to work out....Should the same staff that has 'failed' pick the 'next' QB?

I respect your opinion on the various scenarios so I'll leave those for others to ponder. Re; Al Saunders, I would expect someone new (hire and/or promote) to take over the WR coaching duties.

I wonder if we could entice someone like Kevin Sumlin to coach WRs if we bumped Saunders up to OC now with the plan of grooming Sumlin to take over when Al decided to hang them up.

It all adds up. I won't go too far off topic given this is the OC thread, but I do think quarterbacks are significantly dependant on the talent they have around them & their chemistry with that talent, plus their system familiarity.

If Hue Jackson is being held back in his play calling by the talent on this roster, that influences how the quarterback plays. If Hue Jackson has struggled with his decisions in terms of calling plays and drawing them up, which I think he has, that influences how the quarterback plays.

Those issues are only further increased with a young quarterback in a situation like Deshone Kizer.

Jared Goff started 7 games last season - he went 0-7, looked awful in all of them and he looked pretty embarrassingly bad. They made changes, especially to the talent around him, and he's damn near an MVP contender in year two.

I feel bad for Deshone. I think a lot of fans, media and even Hue Jackson have quit on him. Many did early in the season, regardless of how unwilling they are to admit that. But, the struggles around him are real.

If the next guy to come through gets more of the same, then we'd be crazy to expect a different result. Personally, I think that does start with the OC job that is available. Hue Jackson would be wise to add someone who can assist in building the guy up and getting it right, even if we make a veteran addition like Cousins or Smith.

I agree w/this take.

I would rather bring in a WR coach from the outside than bring in an OC from the outside. And we would still have Al to help the WR coach along.

The more I think about it, the more I like Al Saunders as our OC.

Ideally, I would like to see an OC who has previously been a successful QB coach. such as Tom Clements or Alex Van Pelt...

I'd like to see someone who is familiar with Hue. Not too much system change, and a known cohesive unit remains. I feel like any massive changes to the offense will ultimately defeat the purpose of retaining Hue Jackson. For that reason, I like the Al Saunders idea. A lot of experience, will keep Hue's system, and it helps that he's familiar with the players.

ED, on Kizer, I knew he was gonna suck this year especially first 8 or 9 games. He just hasnt had that game exposure thats needed. Hue put to much on him but I felt it could pay off later. We are seeing signs of him beginning to grasp the scheme. its gonna take time and giving him more weapons is gonna help. The kid can play.

As for an OC, Hue has been a fantastic oc everywhere he ahs been . If we can get him the weapons, I am fine with Hue not adding an OC. Someone just needs to remind him that AJ Green, Marvin jones and company arent on this roster yet.

Me too. I just want him to get better at managing a game.

To add a mote: I don't think it can be overstated that the new HC in LA has made a huge difference for Goff.

Mourg, where do you get that from? Hue had only been an OC for 5 seasons before coming here, 1 year in Washington (2003) when Spurrier was forced to hire someone so he promoted Hue from RBs coach to OC and they finished with the 23rd ranked offense and Spurrier and the staff were fired at seasons end, 1 year in Atlanta (2007) for Bobby Petrino and they were the 23rd ranked offense and replaced at the season's end, 1 year in Oakland (2011) before being promoted to HC where he had the 10th ranked offense, and lastly 2 years with the Bengals (2014-2015) and both years they were ranked 15th. If he is such a fantastic OC why hasn't he been an OC longer then 5 seasons and why after losing his OC jobs has he had to take other coaching jobs instead of getting another OC job?

He will now, he needs someone to get get fired....lol


But to the real point, I don't think it will do any good. Hue is a good O-coordinator. He is a bad head coach....what is his record after today?

We should sub the OC for him and a different QB in the red zone. Part of his scheme is dumb as called. I like an OC who may also help with clock management in a variety of ways.

Glad he is staying. Even more glad about the recent hire.

Wonder who our next HC will bring in as OC

Yep, that TD shovel pass from Kizer to Duke was so freaking stupid. Hue is such a dummy!

Now, I will get real.

If it wasn't obvious to some of you who had better play designs and calls today between Hue and McCarthy, then you'll never get it.

So we won the game?

The shovel pass was a beautiful play.



Without someone studying the "play designs" are you indicating here that Hue is a better coach than McCarthy or a better OC? What is it exactly that you are saying here?

I saw McCarthy outsmart Williams, play design or not. McCarthy adjusted after halftime. Williams didn't. McCarthy said I'll just take what you give me. And oh by the way, I've been winning with a terrible QB, and I'm going to beat you today with a terrible QB. And he did.

I don't know what the play design point is, but the name of the game is winning. McCarthy won, Hue didn't. Then again, Hue never does.

Did I say that? I was commenting on our red zone calls. I pointed out one of those calls. Is that a freaking crime?

Look.........I am real sick of expressing my opinion w/a fact and then having multiple posters act like I am out of my mind.

Good God! Stop!

What was wrong with my post? I didn't make a personal attack on you. I was continuing the discussion.

I don't see where you said Red Zone in that statement.

Or was it just one play was better?

It was a very good play. But why did it take Hue till week 13 to get Crow and Duke on the field at the same time?

the 3rd and 2 in overtime.. I really really wanted to put Crow out there and run the ball. That honestly is the only play that bothers me.

I'm on another forum that has fans of all different teams, and lots of Packers complain about the play calling from McCarthy. They even noted that come crunch time today, it was likely Rodgers influencing McCarthy on what plays to call.


That's why I don't get too upset over Hue. Every fan of every team complains bout play calling. It's a part of the game. I saw improvement today on Hue's part. I think we got a little less aggressive in the 2nd half, but rightfully so.

Yeah, a lot of GB fans I know have hated McCarthy for awhile and have dogged his playcalling for his entire coaching career. I guess what's why I never considered him one of the top notch offensive minds in the game.

Norv Turner will never come back here, not after what happened last time with Chud(being told it was a long term rebuild and being canned in less then a year)

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10223...-rob-chudzinski

Turner was FURIOUS with Haslam...no way he even considers coming back here....

Basically every team has that play in their play book. It's a college play.

Indeed. It reminded me of Tebow to Harvin.

None the less, it was a great call.

Anything that works for this team is a great call.

I could be on board with Al Saunders as OC. But i would worry that it would be more of the same because the delineation of who does what could be very cloudy and could in essence be merely cosmetic and not an actual change.

But, assuming Al were to be the OC and a WR coach brought in i agree it could help. Especially with execution. But ideally would like an infusion of newer concepts to meld with Hue's current scheme and I would like the new coach and Hue to have a dynamic relationship with cross exchange of ideas and philosophy in playcalling.

I want someone capable of doing enough heavy lifting with the coordination piece that Hue has less on his plate and can take a bigger picture view of the offense and have a different vantage to self scout the offense.

I agree with the need and we should get Hue the help for clock management and games. See more upstairs. Not sure I want Norv at all.

But if we hire, the last thing I want is to have a new learning curve. We cannot win with what we do now, adding fresh layers and delays because we made it more complex and different (two different things) can only slow, delay, or prevent success eventually.

Hue needs to honestly change some of what is happening in the red zone IMO.

You have got to be kidding. Hue's offense was shut down in the 4th Qtr & OT. McCarthy's offense was truly stopped one time in the entire second half & OT. McCarthy's plays worked...Hue's didn't. That's all that matters.

Agreed. And to be clear i'm only suggesting bringing in people that already know Hue's verbiage i.e. Digit/Coryell system OR is willing to learn it.

This means the players won't have to learn a new offense. The verbiage/language and playcall mechanism stays the same. The players wouldn't experience any difference in terms of learning the 'offense'.

How can someone compare Hue to McCarthy .....I'll never get it...

McCarthy chewed up Williams in the second half...Hue targeted Gordon twice in the second half. But Hue has some great looking route trees

...

Man, I didn’t know Hue was throwing the ball.

yep...well so far before this game he has been horrid undercenter...I've actually been asking for more under Center. No pressure with the play action. Looked like Lienart in them USC days...lol

So what's your point other to say I'm a douce bag...lol

Go check what he has done under Center upto this game. Then tell me I'm wrong.

I was assessing the past...not looking into the future

McCarthy wasn't throwing OR running the ball either. None of this changes the fact that Hue could not find a way to get Gordon involved in the second half.

i agree, i think

I'm frustrated...

I think I understand schemes and play calling better than most on here. You can mock me, but it was obvious Hue was doing the better job in this game. I am not making fun of you or the other guy, but I'll stand by what I said.

vers..Hue might want to think of hiring an offensive coordinator

I agree and already gave my thoughts about that. I simply did not appreciate being ridiculed for an opinion. And I am confident that opinion was correct.

I wonder if anyone has a subscription to that "NFL 360" I see advertised on TV. It would be interesting to get an idea of how open the receivers are, and if Kizer is throwing to the "most open" guy, and so forth.

The Hue is better than McCarthy one?

Or Hue being a winner with multiple playoff appearances and a SB ring?

Hmm ... I could have sworn that the 360 technology was advertised, but I can't find it.

What are you talking about now? I was referring to the play calling and scheme in this past Sunday's game between the two teams. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Are you talking about this, YTown?

http://www.nfl.com/coachesfilm

Obvious? My goodness. McCarthy had his below-average QB charging up and down the field in the entire second half. McCarthy saw the continued folly of GW's scheme where the CBs are consistently eight yards off the LOS on short down and distance. McCarthy ran the same plays over and over because GW was - and regularly is - unwilling to adjust. He did what HC's are supposed to do. Scheme to win the game you are playing today.

Hue on the other hand creates these awesome schemes and route trees that no one can execute. Then he can't get HIS below-average QB to move the ball into scoring range in the 4th quarter. He can't scheme/play-call to get the ball in Gordon's vicinity but twice in the second half.

These points are too inconvenient to address...so some resort to telling us of their awesome skills rather than talking about what actually happened on the filed.

We didn't get out-played by the Packers...we got out-coached on BOTH sides of the ball AND special teams.

Lol, I'm not calling you anything. Just talking football. You can take it however you want it. On my end it isn't anything personal.

Maybe I'm being too literal? and you meant your statement below as merely an outlandish exaggeration?



That play was an example of the overall concept that was featured in the gameplan vs the Packers: undercenter

You said categorically that it was something Kizer was incapable doing.

J/c

I thought the gameplan against the Packers was Hue's best all season.

Kizer was used in the run-game via read-option.
The run game was established and Kizer threw off play-action; even saw a play I forgot existed: roll-out.

Good post, ed.

Hue had an excellent reputation as an offensive play caller and play designer before he arrived here. He didn't get dumber despite the protests of about a half-dozen posters.

I do think an offensive coordinator will help him. I believe Hue has trusted Williams to handle the defense so he could concentrate more on offense, but still, an OC could relieve a lot of the burden throughout the week.

I am just tired of people pretending that they understand play calling and scheme. They parrot what others are saying and somehow it becomes true on message boards, talk shows, and in the papers.

Pffftttttt....

No, though that is useful as well.

The one I was thinking about was, I believe, a Google setup at about 1/3 of NFL stadiums, with a whole series of cameras, that allow a completely immersive experience.

On the commercial, they showed a one handed catch by Duke, from Hogan, as an example. You could swing the view from LT to RT, down the field, and inside/outside the reception. It looked really cool.

And I will repeat this cause you obviously have a problem.

When I stated that it was 100% true.

Kizer was HORRENDOUS under center.

when I stated that I had wanted us to play him under Center more often cause the possibly advantages (proven by your video were amazing).

But we were not playing him under Center cause he up to this game could not even be close to competent....Check the facts but then we both know you did but we know that also would me I would have to be correct and well what the fun in that.



Go deal your garbage with somebody else.

Again...I cannot assess the future. Up to the time I stated what I did He is was maybe the worst in the history in the NFL for QB's under center.

Lets hope its a beginning and not blind squirrel thing.

Lol, okay.

Then maybe I don't know? Type what you actually mean then?

Its not a big deal. Kizer proved you wrong and you're probably so very happy about it you don't know how to express yourself.

Anyhow:
Does not mean the same thing as all the back pedaling words you've typed since YOU responded to the gifs I posted.

This is a case of....'if the shoe fits'
You must have felt some kind of way huh?

Cheers!

Anyone want to talk about the game/plays?

LOL

Hue is an average OC. That's all I've seen and heard. You puff him up like he is some kind of Guru or something.

LOL

this thread...lol

Yep. Their offense was putrid in 2014 and 2015 when they made the playoffs...

Yet with all that talent they never finished higher then middle of the pack offensively and stunk it up in their playoff games.

If 7th is middle of the pack, mind you with Andy Dalton as your QB, I guess you have a point.

They finished both years 15th in the league in yards. The year before they were 10th with Jay Gruden as the OC and the year after Hue they were 13th with Ken Zampese as OC. If you want to talk points scored they were 15th in 2014 and 7th in 2015 but they were 6th in 2013 with Jay Gruden. People keep saying how great an OC Hue is yet his Bengals' teams were actually worse then what Jay Gruden did the year before.

Oh, and Jay Gruden had Dalton too.

With any other OC Cincy could have went deep in the playoffs but Hue screwed that up with his losing touch!

We're going down a rabbit hole, but...

continuing with your methodology, Gruden was as bad as 18th in that category and as good as 6th. Hue was 15th and 7...same territory. There are a ton of other factors to take into account. The point is, the two of them were in the same neighborhood and both good offensive, playoff caliber coordinators. Hue is also well-respected around the league for his offensive prowess...hence he garnered a good amount of HC interest.

Hope he does/ we do. Because the game is too big for Hue at ground level alone. He should admit it is one thing fixable, and it should start with him first.

Yep, like Ken Zampese...oh wait...

No, but you're right. Hue was the one who fumbled in the final minutes of the Steelers, and he was also the one responsible for two personal foul penalties in a row that put the Steelers in FG range. Man, what was he thinking!?!?!

Oh well...it wasn't like they would have stood a chance against the Broncos that year either. I mean, they had just lost to them by a whopping 3 points a couple weeks before in overtime.

I could go all day on this one...

https://twitter.com/mortreport/status/944947476716556288

Ken Dorsey should be the OC. Don't @ me

I doubt this. I doubt he's flexible enough. My concern would be a Hue hire would just be Hue in another package and if not I don't want to see Hue (who's a claimed O genius) butting heads with a guy he doesn't deem his equal. Being forced(?) to hire a guy may not work out well. Who knows. Still think Hues gone by his own accord.

Hue Jackson definitely knows we will be better next year (before the off-season) and he won't have to fire this guy after the season.

I hope it's true that Hue will hire an OC. IMO this is one of the biggest reasons why we are in the mess we're in. Hue is trying to do too much. An OC would be a big help and Hue could concentrate on just being HC.

Think about how many rumors he can start if he doesn't have to be offensive coordinator!

Tom Clements - from the Packers

Dirk Koetter - if he gets fired

Bernie Kosar if he was in better health.

Would be an awesome QB coach

Agreed. Here's a name you'll recognize...John DePhillippo. (sic?).

I liked him when he was here, and I think that he's a sharp offensive coach.

Would it be Hue or Haslam hiring an OC? Haslam, yes?

And I agree, I would like it if we kept Hue and got an OC, but I think Hue is probably gonna get the boot.

He's going to get head coach interviews.

Hopefully here?

I'd rather see

Devicedawg, Vers, Superbrown, Spiritbro, Diam, CHS, or a couple others as our new HC then another year of Hue.

eotab, cfrs, endromeo

I love me some parades as well! Vers, you up for it? Get your staff from this board? Maybe we ought to hire from top finishers in the fantasy league?

What is our scouts status going into draft? Is Dorsey bringing some? Training ours? Shooting problems on sight? On site?

Hope he gives us some edge and some age and some talent and a viable QB!

Rich Gannon, please.

He knows much about the Awwwwwfense.

I think Hue's playcalling is kind of wobbly and seems to be easy to anticipate, i can usually predict it anyway. Thoughts?

Especially wonky in red zone. He places a premium on tricky, gadget, unexpected, bizarre, or just hasn't worked so why call it now. Seems to get dumber the closer to the goal line he gets. An OC in the booth might help much. Kick it immediately inside the 30! He is easy to anticipate.

Just steamroll some people. Silly palette of plays needs thrown out. Somebody has to do better to carry Kizer's turnover ability and his stupid decisions. Don't think he has grown at all there. But, hey, aren't we number one there in the NFL?

Kinda redefines "loss leader" in an ironic sort of way, neh?

Instead it's a gimmick play action play that's outside Kizer's skill level

Every play is outside of Kizer's skill level...that is the problem.

There would be DRIVES every series not once a half if we are lucky.

There would be flow in the O cause when you move the sticks it gets easier and easier to call successful plays.

Teams play some serious run D against us and our QB has not been able to hit the open WRs.

jmho

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2017...ns-carson-wentz

I take back every bad thing I ever said about DeFlippo, which was a lot of things. It sounds like he knows what it takes to prepare for a game in the NFL.

I liked DeFlippo.

He wasn't the reason for canning Pettine. Pettine blindly following O'Neil into the abyss was the reason for firing Pettine. DeFlippo was just a casualty of situation

Everybody likes a good coach once he is FIRED or basically once we do a mass clearing out.

So the answer is not to do another clearing of our staffs...OC?
I guess if we are going to get a young up and comer he could be the one (DeFillipo).

As long as Hue is ok with it...so am I - I've been all on lets get an OC as we need a none HC to spend time on our execution.
If its a guy Hue trusts with the whole kit and kaboodle then so be it. I'm sure Hue will still be on the head set and offer his own 2 cents on game day.

I'm all in with this one.

jmho

Does anyone think that if Hue Jackson stays and hires an offensive coordinator, that that coordinator will be anything more than a puppet?

The only question will be steel or twine stings.

Puppet or not, I don't care, if I thought it would produce wins.

The Problem I have is I believe Hue's ceiling is 3 wins next year if he stays. Assuming best case everything else.

With a 1 and 30 record, 3 wins is at best, pie in the sky.

I'm not sure I'm reading you here.

At least for myself, I was hoping that we'd keep DeFilipo when Pettine was fired. DeFilipo didn't seem to get a chance (probably because Hue didn't know him)



But offensively, I was impressed with what he put together with he players that we had. My only issue with him was that he didn't run the ball enough. It's one of the reasons Shannahan was a better OC.



I'm not playing Monday Morning QB. I always liked DeFilipo. Especially for a guy in his first year as OC

That would be a really interesting interview, especially with the new hire involved. take Hue up a notch & get him some help and a viable QB. The packers' OC seems to have something loaded all the time. The bigger half is the QB; a major part is OC and game planning.

Hue has earned the move to take him out of the loop with almost 30 losses and has shown he cannot right his ship (which is himself). He has plenty of other HC stuff to do.

This might be a fabulous hire.

Mass Clearing Out = is we fire the HC but almost all the Asst. get canned as well to let the new HC hire his own staff. Ergo the good ones like DeFilipo are cleared out as well.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000900056/article/whos-safe-whos-out-afc-coaches-on-hot-seat

We can't get anything right.

Which part, keeping Hue or Dorsey hiring the OC instead of Hue or both?

Anyway you slice it, until Haslam hires someone to run the team and have the important people report to, this team will never be better.

The part I put in bold. I am resigned to the fact that Hue Jackson is coming back. Not letting him hire his own staff is just pouring gasoline on the fire.

Hue was hired because of what he did as an OC. Now, the Browns are discussing hiring an OC for Hue and relieving him of duties on the the skill-set he was largely hired based upon.

I have seen zero tangible evidence on gameday where Hue has demonstrated his gamed acumen creates an edge for the team. So, why is he being retained (according to Haslam)?

This has Mangini lame duck written all over it.

I hope Dorsey his Dorsey, Ken!

I wouldn't get too upset about that. Probably just the writer being lazy. Dorsey wants an OC hired for sure but that doesn't mean that he is the one picking.

Im sure whoever it is will eventually become the interim HC next year when Hue again fails to win a game halfway through the season.

This can't be right...certainly not the norm. A helter-skelter way to do business, if true.

Still don't think Hue will have any of it. In his mind he is the man. He has the answers. I don't see it ending well... again.

Indeed...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsspor...call-plays/amp/

Jimmie Johnson on why he thinks HC shouldn’t call their own plays.



—————————————————————————-

I think people are reading too much into the loose journalism from that article saying no Dorsey would hire an OC. And technically he’s right because the GM does all the ‘hiring’. If Dorsey is the football guy everyone says he knows the HC needs to hire his OC.

I'll take on the hiring responsibility for Dorsey and Hue. Now does anyone have Ken Dorsey's phone number?

I am not sure hiring a an offensive coordinator will help that much. Hue is an offensive coordinator first. That is why he was brought here to find and develop our franchise QB and to build an offense. So far these 2 areas are our weakest on the team. Will Hue give way to someone else running the offense? Will his ego let him? This can not be Hue's choice to release control of the offense and play calling. It's being forced on him. I don't see how this will work.

Why Ken? Because of the adaptability of the Panthers offense?

My top choice is Mike McCoy, the use the same verbiage on offense and he’s been seen both side of HC/OC relationship.

He's a get rid of Hue guy...cause we know how well that works...

And the part about OC Rappaport is just guessing no inside info on that.

I would not want the GM to get our HC the OC...If there is a case I would want him to INSIST with Hue to get himself an OC and then help in the process.

jmho I don't want my GM picking the coaching staff under the HC...not a good way to start a relationship.

Then Hue goes and gets a stuffed shirt. A puppet or a yes man. I think Hues ego is BIG. I don't like the way he's conducted his business this season. Not very professional.

I think Dorsey is very smart. Colt McCoy has more talent than Dorsey ever did, but Dorsey was able to stay in the NFL for a long time. And I think that gives him a lot of perspective in the league that's rapidly evolved. When he was drafted you could go to the Super Bowl with Rex Grossman, by the time he retired you'd need a franchise QB just to sniff the game. He has helped reign in Cam over the years and saw the Panthers to the Super Bowl. Offense is quickly becoming a young man's game and I think he's the next up. I think him and Hue could do wonders for Kizer or whoever we draft. I think Hue knows the game very well, but has not been prepared for the paradigm shift known as the option. Watching Hue call option plays makes my eyes bleed as I see all the blown assignments and moronic moves his players make. I think he needs to get a young guy in there who can help him flesh out the details and iron out the kinks.

McCoy would be an interesting option, but I am afraid of retreads being offensive coordinators. But having someone who can keep Hue's focus on the overall team would no doubt be very helpful to us.

I agree about the youth movement on the offensive side of the ball.
The best offenses seem to be coordinated by younger guys who learned a system then added their ideas.

Open minded people that aren't forcing their system on their personnel.

A big part is adding from the college game. Sound concepts and plays percolate upwards.

When he says no to a OC is when he will be fired. Haslem can then back track on keeping Hue.

i hate that we have to pay coaches we fire...especially when there is overwhelming evidence they are deserving

Who would be the funniest person we could possibly hire as offensive coordinator?

Maybe that's why we were interviewing Mike Singletary?

Hue isnt going to hire an OC and give up play calling according to Jimmy. Hell according to Jimmy Hue hasnt lost his touch at being a great playcaller. lol what a freaking joke

Ray Farmer

Jimmy said that? Even if we do hire an OC, I just don't see Hue and the OC seeing eye-to-eye...

There is nothing like empowering your employee who just had the worst possible performance.

Hue doesn't want an OC. Says he has no knowledge one being hired! I wonder what MAGIC Jimmy is talking about when he says Hue hasn't lost it!

thanks CHS i just spit out my hennesey lol

2018=Status Quo if this is all fact.

As for reports that Jackson will hire an offensive coordinator, Haslam indicated it's not a mandate from him.

"That's Hue's call,'' he said.

and this

"If you go back two years ago, I think Hue was one of the hottest assistant coaches out there, right?'' he said. "And I don't think Hue's lost his magic on how to call plays or how to run an offense or how to coach a team hue will be your hero

Hue Jackson will be known as Huebris from here on out if he doesn't change anything.

Ah, I love the business model where you promote someone and then expect him to do both jobs and not hire a guy to fill his place.

WOW, the Hoodwinking power of Hue over Jimmy for over 5 million $$ a year. Excellent mental strategy.

You don't need an OC when you are a QB whisperer...

Problem is, you can’t hear the whisper in the headsets over the crowd noise.

What crowd?

(Home games ^)

Pitt travels well.

It is the Force.

The Force is strong with this one.

This is not the coach you are looking to fire. Kizer is not allowed to take the field in 2018.

Cannot wait to see the snappy interviews.

PS Another great outing of ST play. No fluke, we win. New coach there I hope. LoNG overdue IMO.

Todd Downing OC is likely to be fired if/when the Raiders clean housr.
iirc the Raiders system is Coryell based like Hue's so the verbiage should be the same.

Come on all lets face the facts we all know what is going to happen.

After Alabama wins another National Championship.
Brian Daboll takes on the Browns OC position.

Hey btw joking aside. Daboll was the first to use that spread OT out wide look and McCoy threw that TD pass to our TE (Royal???) against the Bengals.

If we're going retro, I thought Rob Chudzinski, in 2007, ran the best offense we've seen since the days of Lindy Infante.

After getting screwed over with just one year at HC, there is no way in Hell that Chud would EVER consider coming back here unless Haslam was to offer him a King's ransom.

Chud was the one who got away 😭

I was mostly just responding to EO's point about Brian Daboll possibly returning. On the other hand, if Rob finds himself out of a job this off season (wasn't he on Pagano's staff?), there's no telling what a guy might do depending on the number of zeros on a salary offer. My only point is I think he's a really good OC. He might even have been a good HC, but we'll most likely never know.

Whoever it is I hope he is ready to step in and be our HC for the next 10 years ...

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/948222154411212800

If we can get Lamar and a coach who has seen an option play ran in this century!!!!

Keep in mind I was mostly joking about Daboll...why I started my next paragraph with "Seriously"

But unlike most I liked Daboll and though he was innovative.

"Come be our offensive coordinator."

"What? Noooooooooooooo, you totally won't be fired with all the other coaches one year from now and Hue Jackson definitely won't undermine you at every turn."

BOB said Ryan was granted permission to interview with us:

https://www.chron.com/sports/texans/arti...an-12467146.php

Here is Ryan's bio from the Texans site:

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/coaches/sean-ryan/4cb7b7aa-1675-471e-bdcf-8f528782d416

Interesting that he has no ties to Hue Jackson. My guess is that we are not able to get the cream of the crop because of the Dorsey/Jackson forced marriage.

This is GREAT NEWS ...

Thank god Hue thinks our O is finally good enough to hire an OC as opposed to a sacrificial lamb .... GREAT NEWS!!!!

...

It's hard to imagine anyone signing on for this impending disaster unless he believes or is told they would have a legitimate shot to become the HC of the team.

Eh, I honestly think this is part of the cream of the crop. He was with Eli when the Giants went to the Superbowl. He was Odell's coach for a season. Then he went to the Texans and was the position coach for DeAndre and Fuller. Then he got promoted to QB coach and helped Watson a ton. The guy has helped his talent produce. I think Dorsey has been scouting talent as he's been away and this guy is part of it. What we don't want to happen is to have someone from Hue Jackson's tree or someone he is comfortable with. We need some new blood in this organization and that new blood should not be coming from the Hue Jackson/Marvin Lewis tree. This is a very good move imo.

I'm still team Ken Dorsey fwiw.

Smart. Target a guy who actually knows how to work with a young quarterback. He might be able to teach Hue a thing or ten.

Pretty sure these decisions come straight from the top, not Hue.

Not really looking like Hue had a lot of say in this pick. He seems to go with guys that he's worked with before.

I think Ryan would be a good hire at OC.

My guess is he wouldn't change the verbiage, which would be good for the offense.

It would take a load off Hue's plate and bring another voice and direction to the offensive meetings and gameplans.

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/t...th-12292203.php

https://twitter.com/alexmarvez/status/948316678588391424

I hope John Dorsey chokes out Hue Jackson in their meeting room.

Rob or Rex?

When asked this question:



https://twitter.com/IcEnVeinZ/status/948322326592049158

Mike Silver responded:



https://twitter.com/MikeSilver/status/948323037589352448

Mike Silver after the 2017 draft:

Thank God I wasn't drinking anything when I read this.

I read this earlier.

I really want to give Hue the benefit of the doubt, but then things like this make me want to bang my head against the wall.


The Bengals offense started off terrible. Supposedly there was almost a mutiny against this coach.


Why can't he just give up the play calling duties, focus on the team as a whole, and let this Sean Ryan get the job?

Maybe this was Hue's OC selection for this past year?

You know, the guy that wasn't going to survive the season with the talent they had!

Mary Kay said he'd be on the team an as an assistant or positional coach.


I don't think he'd be offensive coordinator



I like what I've read about this Sean Ryan guy. We certainly need a change. Hue has way too much on his plate. He's lucky he's making it to year three. It's a mistake that should have been corrected year two

When did Hue work w/Gregg Williams?

I should have specified on the offensive side of the ball.

Maybe Hue just wants the best guy and is willing to trust Dorsey?

Maybe, but you would expect a more personal connection for the guy he was protecting from getting fired.

I actually hope Al Saunders is named the OC and that Hue retains the play calling duties. Saunders is experienced and smart. He can do the daily chores of being the OC and really help w/the game plan. But, Hue is a good play caller and play designer. I don't want to lose that.

I actually was expecting Al Saunders to be named the guy. That doesn't seem to be happening though.

Whoever we get should probably call the plays because Hue can't seem to manage doing that and clock management at the same time.

This would be a good idea, but I think Hue's problem is he gets too wrapped in his play sheet and misses things a HC shouldn't. He needs to manage the whole team as a HC, after reading him pretty much admit he had too much on his plate, I believe it would work better for him if someone else called the plays. A HC can trump a OC if he sees that a certain play is what he wants. I'm sure that happens a lot in this league.

Maybe an Asst head Coach would do the trick. I, too, have always liked his plays. Maybe he just needs someone to help him keep track of the whole thing during the game. An extra set of eyes, if you will.

Good points.

I would rather have a guy like Saunders handle the day-to-day duties of being an OC and help w/the game plan.

I would like for Hue to call the plays.

I would like for another--or others--to be in charge of time management, replays, etc. I am not so sure that isn't already the case........for example........challenges. I think they come from upstairs. Perhaps we need a new set of eyes and minds in those areas.

We are going to but heads on this one buddy. I don't want Hue to call a single play.

Did you think his play calling in Cinci was a problem? If so, why in the hell was he the hottest HC candidate just a couple of years ago?

As we both know your playing calling looks a lot better when you have the talent on offense. Cincy had that talent when Hue was there, AND I liked him at that time. But right now I think he has lost it. He is all HUE, HUE, HUE, right now and could give two craps about Cleveland.

Big deal.

Do you know how many coaches have left one spot for another? The ego thing doesn't bother me. He isn't my friend. He is a freaking coach.

We're on the right track bro. Jump on the train.

Agreed. It doesn't matter how it gets done as long as it gets done.

If challenges are coming from upstairs, that guy needs to be replaced. They don't need to fire the guy, just have somebody else managing the red flags.

If you want to jump on the train then Jump on Flip's train. I told you two years ago, I told you before this season, and I will be screaming it loud and proud this off season. Flip is DA man.

Flip ran the ball less than Hue.

Bro, I get the friendship thing, but we're going to be okay.

DeFilipo? I'll agree with that about not running the ball enough.

But he was pretty good at calling passing plays. He sure did a lot with a little.


I'm a bit timid about Hue Jackson at this point.

And Al Saunders has already been on the team for two years. Why wouldn't he be our O-Coordinator already? I mean, didn't Jackson realize that this offense wasn't getting better and that he looked so disorganized on game day?



Nope. I'd rather bring in an O-Coordinator. Let Jackson run the team as a whole, direct it towards where he wants going, and start macro-managing decisions.


Delegating is a big part of being a leader. He needs to identify good support, and delegate some of his duties.

I get that., and I admit I let friendships get in the way personal decisions. Flip knows his [censored], he got the short end of the stick in Cleveland, and he and his better half deserve all the happiness they can get.

His career is trending up.

I would love to see Flip here as OC and if Hue falters take over as HC, I think he's about at that point in his career

People complain about Hue not running the ball, but Flip ran it less.

most of his career was as a QB coach, i get it..but if you compare this year and 2015 the number of rushes were almost identical, but you'd have to bet he would be more balanced just by natural progression. Hes a bright guy, does well wherever he goes. He's one of those guys that is going to get it..he puts in the work. So I don't really hold 2015 against anyone, that was an ugly season by all stretches. I'm just talking in general. I like him and I think he's going to be the next great thing. His work ethic is impressive

Flip was quoted on more than one occasion that he would abandon the run if teams stopped it early.

People complained about Flip not running the ball as well.

I wouldn't question abandoning the run if we weren't getting 4.5 yards a carry and forcing a rookie with accuracy problems to throw it 50 times a game.

I think our numbers are skewed due to trailing in games and because teams stack the box.

Hue ran the ball in Cinci.

A stacked box should skew the numbers in the opposite direction shouldn't it?

I was speaking about the number of carries per game. Long runs vs stacked boxes can skew the stats, though.

A lot of plays where teams stacked the box, our personnel was two tight ends and in the I. No one is going to stack the box against a team that throws it 35 times a game unless the personnel called for a run.

Kirk Cousins or Josh Risen.

The Cleveland Browns could be getting ready to beef up their coaching staff, something that is being done in “lockstep” between the head coach and general manager, according to Mike Silver of the NFL Network.

So far, there are two rumored candidates being considered for positions on the offensive staff. Ian Rapoport of the NFL Network says the Browns have requested permission to interview Houston Texans quarterbacks coach Sean Ryan for their vacant offensive coordinator job:


Ian Rapoport
✔
@RapSheet
The #Browns have requested permission to speak with #Texans QB coach Sean Ryan for their vacant OC job, Cleveland sources say. His work with rookie QB Deshaun Watson has not gone unnoticed.
7:59 AM - Jan 2, 2018
101 101 Replies 587 587 Retweets 2,223 2,223 likes
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In addition, Alex Marvez of FOX Sports says that Jackson has an interest in bringing former Bengals offensive coordinator Ken Zampese onto his staff.


Alex Marvez
✔
@alexmarvez
Source tells @sportingnews that @Browns HC Hue Jackson has interest in bringing ex- @Bengals OC Ken Zampese onto his coaching staff.
2:14 PM - Jan 2, 2018
39 39 Replies 69 69 Retweets 78 78 likes
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One would hope that Zampese is not being considered for the Browns’ offensive coordinator spot. He was fired from the Bengals this season after a disastrous start to the year, and things started clicking again in Cincy the second he was removed. Mary Kay Cabot of the Plain Dealer believes that Zampese is merely being considered for an “offensive assistant” role.

As for Ryan, he didn’t call plays for the Texans, but Rapoport said that his work with a young quarterback “did not go unnoticed.” Cleveland’s search for an offensive coordinator is expected to include other candidates, but the fact that people are being interviewed likely means that the team will fill the job for the first time under Jackson’s watch. Whether he gives up playcalling duties remains to be seen

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2018/1/2/1...ive-coordinator

j/c...remember Hue is the HC and he will want to get HIS guy at OC not some up and comer who will want his own playbook. Its common sense he is going to go with somebody who can utilize his playbook, his Language.

Hue needs help in preparing the O for EXECUTION of plays.

Its never been the play calling its the execution.

As for Hues comments about not bringing in an OC because of the talent. It was a kind way of saying nobody would have wanted to go through a QB room of Kizer, Kessler and Hogan.

I think Hue did a good job with Kizer and saw improvement from him. But it was a scenario that no first time OC would have coveted.

jmho

This is worrisome to me. I want more than a simple 'yes-man', recognizing of course that they need to be on the same page. I do not know whether John DePhillipo (sic?) is that guy or not, but I would like to see him back here...

That sounds a lot like being a offensive coordinator.

So you think throwing the ball 47 times with a rookie at QB is good play calling? I like Jackson and want him to succeed but that is just stupid. We need an OC calling the plays so we have at least a chance of developing a run game. Especially if we have another rookie starting next season. We NEED to run the damned football and Jackson has shown zero desire to do so. I hope we hire a damned fine OC and let him call the plays. Let Coach Jackson do what an HC is supposed to do. Run the team and make game day decisions. Hopefully, the new OC would know that to win in this division you run the ball.

Not only that, maybe they will be capable of upping the team's effectiveness at running the ball like Kyle Shannahan manages to do (as O-Coordinator)

Hopefully, the days of disconnect in the Brown's organization are in the past.

As far as Flip goes, the Browns ran it fewer times for fewer yards under Flip's guidance than they did this year.

Play calling hasn't been the problem. However, I would like for an OC to come in and handle the duties I described earlier.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...on-john-dorsey/

Offensive coordinator hire could be first pressure point for Hue Jackson, John Dorsey
Posted by Mike Florio on January 3, 2018, 7:59 AM EST

AP
Browns coach Hue Jackson had an offensive coordinator during the 2016 season. Jackson didn’t have an offensive coordinator during the 2017 season.

After the Browns hired G.M. John Dorsey, a report emerged that Jackson will hire an offensive coordinator for 2018. Over the weekend, a report emerged that Dorsey would be hiring the offensive coordinator.

On Monday, Jackson was asked about the report that Dorsey would be hiring the offensive coordinator.

“I really appreciate John’s expertise,” Jackson said. “He has seen a lot of different ways to do things, and I will lean on him for things, but I don’t think John is making a decision on if we are going to have a coordinator or not.”

Jackson also was asked whether hiring an offensive coordinator falls within the responsibility of the coach.

“I would think so, thank you,” Jackson said with a laugh.

That may have been nervous laughter. Jackson may realize that an effort by Dorsey to hire, or at least influence the hire, of an offensive coordinator could mean that Dorsey would have an interim head coach in place, in the event Jackson and the Browns yet again stumble out of the gates. In 2017, the lack of an offensive coordinator meant that there was one less potential in-season replacement for Jackson.

In 2018, the presence of a coordinator means that Dorsey would have someone who could take over, if/when Dorsey finally persuades ownership that, yes, Hue Jackson has significant responsibility for the current state of the franchise. The more influence Dorsey has over the hire, the more likely that the hire will be someone Dorsey envisions as a potential replacement for Hue.

So look for the hiring, or not, of an offensive coordinator to become the first pressure point in the new relationship between G.M. and coach.

I actually like the idea of Ryan from the Texans, feel the work he did with Watson was great, unheard of to come out and produce like that with a rookie QB. Not to mention how he helped with Beckum in New York. The guy seems to have been good wherever he’s been. Not sure if the system would stay the same or not, do the Texans run a similar style offense? This is all assuming that Hue hands him the keys.

Maybe they aren’t working together as much as both have reiterated.

Oh, oh! Trouble in paradise? And so it begins. All on the same page...apparently not so.

I think Dorsey is explaining to Hue how things are going to be from now on.

I didn't think hiring an OC was a maybe proposition. I assumed it was one condition for Hue being kept. Take some of his toys away.

Just...not Zampese. He is a good QB coach but totally overwhelmed as an OC.

I guessing Ryan is a Dorsey choice and Zampese is a Hue choice.

Most likely.

If we hire an offensive coordinator and he has play calling responsibilities, then I think it will be pretty obvious what happened.

I'm not sure having Zampese calling plays would be an upgrade.

If he's hired he won't be calling plays. It will be a face saving hire with no real substance.

J/c

I don't think the media does a good job of explain the actual role of an offensive coordinator. And because the media doesn't understand/explain those roles I think many fans equate offensive coordinator=playcaller despite the fact that an OC has many important responsibilities outside of playcalling that have a huge impact on gameday.

If Sean Ryan becomes the OC it will be a HUGE benefit even if he isn't calling plays.

I agree with all of this and that's not really what I was talking about (I know you weren't necessarily responding to me). It is behind a paywall, but ESPN the Magazine wrote a pretty good article on Greg Knapp in 2011 describing his job as offensive coordinator of the Texans (where he didn't call plays).

http://insider.espn.com/insider/story/_/...h-steelers-game

To clarify my post, I think there is probably, at least a little bit of, a power struggle going on between John Dorsey and Hue Jackson. My bet is that Dorsey wants Jackson to give up some of his front facing duties (mainly play calling) because it will show that Dorsey is truly in charge and Jackson answers to him. Jackson is trying to do the opposite, maintain and/or grab some more power.

I don't know enough to speculate on the rumored power struggle between Dorsey and Hue. Can't comment on it, don't know about it. From what I've read it seems media driven. The media are outsiders looking in.

Hue knows not having an OC was a mistake. Hue said he would think about bringing on OC. Sean Ryan is supposed to be coming in for an interview.

Right now the situation with the media/some fans is toxic and they're gonna find things to pick at. But the fact that they are looking at OCs is imho without a doubt a good thing.

Zampese is a reject from Cincy. Hue can't bring in that flunkie. Didn't he get fired after maybe 2 games?


Hue is wanting to buy games. I think if we aren't 2-3 after 5 games, he is done..

https://twitter.com/KeithBritton86/status/948651808947400704



100% agree.

Sashi is gone and he will not be rehired even if the Browns fire Hue.

Hue is going to be the coach next year.

Dorsey and Hue have both said they want to work together.

All of the negative, hateful spin by a handful of posters is not going to change that.

Yeesh. Please tell me Hue Jackson isn't trying to hire an OC in title only while maintaining his own vice grip on the play calling?

He's a total idiot. He surely can't think we're going to be fooled by that?

We'll quickly see by the hire just how much control Hue has over what's happening.

No doubt he will be the coach next year.

I think it is more than a handful of people.

What they have said and what will happen are two different things. We are already seeing pressure points being pushed over this OC hire.

I don't want some flunkie brought in here allowing Hue to call plays through him.

I want a real OC

Agreed. This Zampese guy has already been fired. Word has it he lost all confidence from the Bengal's Offense.


Why would we want that guy? I'd rather have an up-and-comer. Hopefully Zampese is just being evaluated as an assistant or for QB coach or quality control or something

Can you be sure McClain is right about Sean Ryan wanting playcalling duties? It seems like an odd demand for an OC candidate interviewing for a promotion.

Also, getting back to my point about the actual responsibilities of an OC vs the perception. It seems most people are gearing themselves up to be upset if they bring in an OC that isn't the playcaller.

In essence media/fans don't really care about the OC. They just don't want Hue to call plays anymore. And its not the same thing.

Even if Hue remains the playcaller having an OC will be good. But fans in this thread/forum will hate it.

Better yet, he will be rejected.


Hue says he gets it...he needs to get there is a new way of doing business and he is officially on notice.

I hope he makes it, that is good for me, the fan.


Somebody needs to put a number on it for the guy.

Im okay with this. I'd rather him have someone else call the plays, but i'm okay with it.


I just don't know if i like the idea of this guy who got fired two weeks into the season with the Bengals being the candidate Hue selects

I seriously doubt that the new OC will be the play caller. That would be moronic.

I have described what his duties should/will be. Deny my opinion if it suits your perspective, but we'll see who ends up being correct.

I think a handful of you posters believe that the Browns are going to operate like Sashi is still here. He's gone. We have real football people in the FO now. They will not be dumb enough to undermine the HC. I believe they know the importance of working together.

I was just throwing it out there because it was something I saw. Also, McClain is one of the better reporters out there and I don't think he would say something like that flippantly.



Agreed. There are some people I will be more happy about and some less, but in the end I think any person who takes some of the load of off Hue Jackson will be a good thing.



100%



Agreed again.

Man, for a Hue Jackson thread, people sure love to talk about Sahi Brown.

I thought it was an OC thread?

Wait, I never realized we had an OC in 2016, who was it?

I think he is referring to our passing game coordinator, Pep Hamilton.

Wasn't Pep, passing game coordinator/QB Coach/Assistant Coach or something like that?

That's who I think the author was refering to as well.

I don't think it is going to operate like Sashi is here.

He isn't here. I think it is going to operate like Dorsey is here....a football guy where the GM is over the head coach.

A system where the OC is the OC....the way football guys operate.


If we hire Hue some assistant to follow him in lock-step, how is that hiring a OC.



You coached football. Why would you as a up and commer want a job where you are simply signaling in Hues calls, or running his O for that matter? How do your make your name and mark doing that? Did Hue do that?

We are in different worlds, peen. And that's fine.

Hue got hired because of his offensive prowess. He was the hottest candidate that year and was far and above any of the guys who are available this year.

Hue did not get dumber.

I don't want an OC to come in and call plays. That would be stupid.

I want him to perform OC duties. ed has brought this up. Do some research if you don't believe us.

I did coach football. I was an OC for a Wing Tee offense because that is what my HC ran. I also was an OC for a team that ran the Wishbone. I also was the QB coach for a team that ran more of a pro-style offense.

I ran what they wanted me to run and tried to put my own stamp on things.

I am hoping we are done w/the likes of guys like Farmer, Lombardi, and Sashi and that Dorsey is going to be the guy that will work w/his HC. I think all of the early evidence [despite what a handful of posters are saying] is that these guys are going to work TOGETHER!

And I could give a rat's ass if some of you are going to be butt hurt that we are finally on the right path!

Btw..............Happy New Year, bro!

I agree he was a good coordinator. So was Chris Palmer and Pat Shurmer.

The history of the league is full of great coordinators who failed as head coaches.

Hue is a blocked kick away from 0-32

Man, for an OC thread, people sure love to talk about Sashi Brown.

Do they? Or do they wanna bash Hue? Wanna count them up, Ham?

Well, one could say Hue's performance is the entire reason there's an OC thread, couldn't one?

You might want to take a break Vers.

I'm not trying to start anything here.

Just a friendly suggestion.

One could say that. But, one would be wrong.

If you think going into a season w/a qb room that has never one won single game is a good thing....then God help you.

Sashi is the one who blew the roster up. Not Hue. He knew that we were going to lose a ton of games. Most were okay w/that plan. But damn man.........when it played out.....the narrative changed and all of sudden it was about Hue being 1 and 31. LOL

Please.........

I think sentence above shows the way many media/fans think. They assume, wrongly, that OC is synonymous with 'playcaller' and its not. Sure on some teams the OC/DC is the playcaller on that respective side of the ball but on other teams the HC is the playcaller on offense/defense.





The same way you became an up and comer at your current position. By doing your job well. Get the area you coach to perform well. That's the bottom line. Did you know some successful NFL coaches, heck some HC have never called plays?

The OC isn't merely a 'playcaller'. I think that misconception is the core of the current OC argument. Its funny though because I remember during the offseason the discussion that Hue needed an OC yet it was dismissed as unnecessary/unimportant and know everyone wants an OC except they don't actually want an OC they just want someone else to call the plays.

I think a few people get that and still don't want Hue calling plays Ed.

Was Hue a bad play caller in Cinci?

A full offensive staff assign each coach a segment of the offense to coach and oversea. For example:

QB coach:nickel pass, blitz pick-up
WR coach: red zone passes
RB coach: Gen run, SY-GL-RZ run, 4 minute,
TE coach: Reports, self scout, opp analysis,
OL coach: Gen run, SY-GL-RZ run, 4 minute

OC: 3rd down passing

OC puts it all together, runs the practices when the whole offense is together. Makes sure the different pieces of the puzzle fit together as a cohesive unit. Studies opponent film and works with the HC to develops a and delegates the strategy to the position coaches. Analyzes all game situations, game plan outline, routine sheets, scripts and sometimes playcalling on gameday.

You are asking the wrong guy. I don't mind Hue calling plays as long as his game management doesn't continue to suffer.

I think we are saying the same thing but from different angles. Some people don't want Hue calling plays and don't really give a rip about whether or not there's an OC brought on. They're only paying lip service to the importance of bringing on an OC because to them OC = playcaller.

Therefore they view anything short of Hue giving up playcalling as a 'sham' hire.

I think there are even a couple more groups.

Those that want an OC and don't care if he calls plays if there is an improvement on offense.

Those that worry of a sham hire/sacrificial lamb for when things go wrong again.

Those that want an OC that runs a different offense.

Those that want Hue's replacement in place for when he gets fired.

There's probably a few more that I haven't thought of.

Nicely put together, ed. Sounds like the OC is more qualified to call the plays than the HC...

Please elaborate.

This whole idea that Hue Jackson somehow was a "hot coordinator" and he was a good play caller in Cincy is simply not true.

in 2015 Cincy had a mediocre 15th ranked offense. They ranked 15th passing, 13th rushing, and 15th overall.

in 2014 they ranked 6th in rushing, 21st in passing(behind the Browns)and again 15th overall

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?a...e&Submit=Go

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?a...e&Submit=Go

Hue Jackson was nothing but a medicore coordinator and barely an average playcaller at best(that was with good talent) he barely was an average play caller in Cincy with far better talent,Even the Browns out gained him in passing in 2014...Hue Jackson is a joke.

Keeping Hue Jackson is NOT what's best for the Cleveland Browns moving forward. the Detriot Lion's were smart enough to fire the morons that led them to 0-16, but it seems like Browns obviously are not that smart.

You are what your record says you are - Bill Parcells.

Hue Jackson is a 9-39 .188 career head coach, he is 1-31 as the Browns Head Coach with a .031 ....yes your not reading that win percentage wrong. .188 for his career and .031 in Cleveland LOL!

The Browns in the past have fired head coaches too son, but with Hue Jackson this is the ONE INSTANCE firing him is the RIGHT COURSE. the guy has no clue what he is doing.

Against the Titans, The Titans had 4th and one at our own 36 and the Titans committed a personal foul and Hue Jackson declined the damn penalty that would have made it 3rd and 16 and backed them out of FG range. the Titans proceed to kick a FG and we lost the game 9-12...Hue Jackon cost us the damn game....Gregg Williams cost us the game against Detroit with the stupid 2 deep corners that allowed Stafford to throw a pitch and catch uncontested for a TD...absolutely horrible coaching.

Jackson's penchant for throwing the football with an inexpereined rookie Qb cost us about 4 wins. We could have won 5 games atleast with even an average NFL head coach...Shurmur or Mangini wins 5 games with the Browns roster we had in 2016....

Listerally anyone here on these forums could have coached the Browns to a 1-31 record...hell i'd say almost anyone on here would have at least won one game this year...When you go winless, you don't belong in the NFL...any poster here could have avoided a winless season....

The NY Jets were said to be the worst team in the NFL talent wise had a worse roster then us, and Bowles still coaxed 5 wins out of that trash roster and had then competitive...because unlike Hue Jackson...Bowles can coach his way out of a paper bag..not other NFL head coach declines that penalty against the Titans like hue Jackson did.

the Browns need to fire him, and stop waiting around...he won't last the season enxt year if we keep him because the guy has no clue what he is doing, the fact he went winless proves that...only the Browns would keep a 1-31 coach with an 0-16 record....unreal..

Sure but those are all still sub-division of the 2 main groups.
Hue is the playcaller vs Hue isn't the playcaller.

This is a false statement.

I actually could care less whether Hue is fired or not, whether he calls his own plays or not. Like Diam, I have zero respect for the man for reasons scattered about these many threads...

lol !
A lot of the problems will be solved when a QB establishes himself. Sean McDermott calls the plays in Buffalo but has an associate head coach who helps with the in-game stuff such as when to throw the red flag. Maybe something similar to that could work in Cleveland.

Iif we start 0-5 next season hue will be gone

LOL...........yet, you backed Farmer, Sashi, and Holmgren.

Go root for Buffalo!

Lol, Ty. I can't claim it though, its pretty much my recall straight from Bill Walsh, Finding the Winning Edge.

You missed the discussion then. It wasn't about whether Hue should be fired at all. Was a discussion about whether or not people in this thread actually want and understand the role of an OC or whether people just don't Hue calling plays.

No, I got it, ed. Simply wanted to post a generic response. Whether Hue takes on (or is given) an OC, doesn't matter to me. I am not a fan of some of his play calling, specifically lack of usage of TE's/middle of the field. I do believe that an OC would benefit him by reducing his workload and allowing him to focus on strategic rather than tactical issues...

Sure...from Bill Walsh, Finding the Winning Edge:


The individual in charge of the offensive staff is the offensive coordinator. His most critical responsibility is to develop and implement the offensive game plan.

By definition, one of the key duties of the offensive coordinator is to do just that: coordinate. When the team has a diverse offensive staff, it would be fool hardy not to fully utilize the knowledge and capabilities of the these staff members by excluding them from the process of creating and implementing the offensive gameplan.

The feedback and ideas that can be provided by the offensive staff should be encouraged and given a platform. It is then the job of the offensive coordinator to blend and focus everyone's input into a single, cohesive game plan that adheres to the basic parameters of the team's offensive system.

The process of developing a gameplan for a particular opponent is initiated by the offensive coordinator, who breaksdown the specific responsibilities of each coach for helping prepare that gameplan. He identifies what he wants each coach to focus on when the assistant coach analyses the opponent for the upcoming week.

With the limited time that a staff has to prepare for an opponent in any given week (usually a little more then a day), the offensive coordinator simply does not have enough time to personally address in an adequate manner all of the areas that have to be accounted for in a game with the necessary attention to detail.

Accordingly, the various key elements that must be accounted for in an offensive gameplan are assigned to the offensive position coaches who are able to devout more time to identifying, analyzing and developing suggestions for attacking an opponents defensive tendencies.

On a few areas, several coaches may need to work together to develop a plan for handling a particular element of the offense.

The key for the offensive coordinator is to establish specific priorities about what information he needs, when he needs it, when it should be introduced into the decision making process, and most importantly, when he has enough. Accordingly, one of the most basic questions the offensive coordinator should ask with regard to the need for a specific report is, "Will this information affect the play selection?"

The next step in the process of developing and implementing the offensive gameplan for a particular opponent involves having the offensive staff address the issues required to prepare the meetings and practices with the players during which the gameplan will be explained and put into effect. Even the most brilliant gameplan is relatively useless unless it can be readily learned and executed by the team's players.

It continues on for another 2 pages with 3 charts for duties.
The long and short of it is that Hue has too much on his plate. Looking at it from a even simpler view of man hours the staff was hurting in man hours put in by the offensive staff by not having an OC.

The bottom line is this team has been bad now for awhile, we’re we told it would be? Yes. Did we expect, 1-31 bad? Well, I didn’t. I suspect no one else did. People have a right to vent and blame whoever they want to blame. Some blame Sashi, some blame Hue, some blame Haslam, some blame all or a combination of them. But as fans we have the right to see it however we want, right, wrong or indifferent.

I blame Haslam for getting involved to much, I blame Sashi for the talent level to an extent, I also blame Sashi for not giving Hue more resources to help. But I also blame Hue for what we saw on the field each week, it wasn’t very good. I blame Hue for not bringing Kizer along the way he needed to. Regardless of what Kizer is, bum, or legit QB prospect he was not handled right. Not the way a rookie QB with as many short comings as he had should have been handled.

We all are entitled to our opinions, again, right, wrong or indifferent. We all an vent however we wish.

I understand the OC is way more than a playcaller. That just happens on Sunday. The week leading up to the game he is going over the advanced scouting reports from his advance scouts, some who went to the opponents game the week before, and some who look at flim to identify trends, etc.

He is largely responsible for setting the game plan.

I understand that card Hue holds isn't the same week to week. The OC sets that. Setting plays for down and distance, game situation, etc. That all takes time. The OC communicates this to his players...who we might attack, what to look for, and these are the special plays we might run, then incorporates those plays in to practice so we don't throw the players for a loop by calling a play or two we haven't worked on but a couple of times back training camp.

Is that sort of what you are talking about?

Yep, my last couple posts explain the basic roles and duties of an offensive coordinator as described by one of the greatest coaches of all time. Bill Walsh,

This is good stuff! Nice to see it laid out in a readable manner. Accepting this as 'common practice', what is the likelihood that Hue simply has taken on too much workload?

Ummm how bout both are choices to interview by HUE. Don't know what is so hard to figure that out....besides you posters that totally hate HUE...lol

Has Dorsey given a short/long list of possible candidates to Hue. He'd be a terrible GM if he didn't. Looking to interview I think is a decision by HUE.

jmho

I thought not having an offensive coordinator was a mistake from the outset of the announcement of the coaching staff in the offseason.

I think undoubtedly Hue had too much on his plate being HC and OC.

If coaching in the NFL is anything its time consuming. Coaching the youngest team in the league is going to take even more coaching/time. But to attempt it without an offensive coordinator imho had a trickle down effect that had a negative effect on everything.

Hue wasn't as good of HC as he is capable of being and he wasn't even as good of a coordinator as he's been in the past.

Agreed, ed. Hard to dispute that...

You may be over thinking it.

In what way? I'm not sure where you're going with this...

Twitter . . .

Keith Britton
@KeithBritton86

.@McClain_on_NFL tells @BullandFox #Browns OC candidate Sean Ryan (#Texans QB coach) would not accept another role if he was not given ability to call plays. Good chance he stays in HOU w/ likelihood of multiple offers after next season

12:26 PM - 3 Jan 2018

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...nator-113200262

Former Cincinnati Bengals offensive coordinator Ken Zampese is being interviewed for an assistant position and not offensive coordinator according to Cleveland.com.

The coach spent a few days at Cleveland Browns practice last week according to ESPN Cleveland's Tony Grossi.

Zampese was a part of Marvin Lewis' original coaching staff and had been there until he was fired earlier this season. Prior to joining the Bengals, he had served in various roles with the St. Louis Rams, Philadelphia Eagles and Green Bay Packers. He has coached quarterbacks and wide receivers in the past. The Browns have coaches in both roles already: senior offensive assistant and wide receivers coach Al Saunders as well as quarterbacks coach David Lee.

Jackson is expected to take some time away in order to determine additional staff changes beyond the offensive coordinator role.

He's been a QB coach, WR coach, and Passing game coordinator in the past.

Ken Zampese

Personal information

Born: July 19, 1967 (age 50)

Career information
High school: San Diego (CA) University
College: San Diego

Career history

As coach:
Southern California...Graduate assistant (1990–1991)

Northern Arizona (1992–1994)...Wide receivers coach

Northern Arizona (1995)...Offensive coordinator

Miami (Ohio) (1996–1997)...Quarterbacks coach & passing game coordinator

Philadelphia Eagles (1998)...Offensive assistant

Green Bay Packers (1999)...Offensive assistant

St. Louis Rams (2000)...Offensive assistant

St. Louis Rams (2001)...Wide receivers coach

St. Louis Rams (2002)...Passing game coordinator

Cincinnati Bengals (2003–2015)...Quarterbacks coach

Cincinnati Bengals (2016–2017)...Offensive coordinator

link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Zampese

Well this will bear watching ..

I would feel better if Zampese had more experience as an OC at the NFL level. Two years with Cinci, where their offensive production declined both years...not exactly what the Browns need, imo.

I can't see Al Saunders leaving. Maybe he's taking David Lee's job?

Before anyone goes crazy the author states that this is just a theory, but there is some interesting information here.

https://scout.com/nfl/browns/Article/Cou...essor-113041522

BEREA, Ohio -- Is there a way that John Dorsey could end up bringing in his own head coach?

Conspiracy theorists want to know.

Owner Jimmy Haslam has repeatedly said that Hue Jackson will return as the Browns coach in 2018, yet it seems to be an unpopular decision with many Browns fans. There have been reports that Jackson has a huge escalator clause if he were to be fired before his third season with the Browns. Whatever the reason, Jackson is in the process of adding to his coaching staff.

A national report over the weekend said that Dorsey would be hiring an offensive coordinator for the Browns. That report was shot down and Jackson addressed it in his season-ending press conference Monday when asked if Dorsey will hire an offensive coordinator.
“I really appreciate John’s expertise," Jackson said. "He has seen a lot of different ways to do things, and I will lean on him for things, but I don’t think John is making a decision on if we are going to have a coordinator or not.”

Dorsey reports to Haslam directly, as does Jackson, so Dorsey does not have hiring the head coach in his job description as currently constructed.

When suggested that hiring an offensive coordinator would be a decision for the head coach, Jackson responded:

“I would think so, thank you," Jackson said laughing.

However, Jackson said he's open to hiring an offensive coordinator.

“I kind of addressed that some weeks ago when I said that is something that I would be looking into," he said. "I am going to take this week myself and go reflect on all of those things. It is something that I have thought about, adding a coordinator here.

"I think the staff decisions for me will be from reflecting over the next week or so and just seeing where we are, seeing what I think in need to do to help this organization be the best it can be," he said. "I think that is one of my jobs as a leader is to go back and look how can we improve and how can we get better in all of the areas.”

With all of the responsibilities of a head coach, it would seem that Jackson would be persuaded to at least bring in a coordinator as he's had play calling issues, game management issues, as well as clock management issues. Also, talk about an offensive coordinator--for the most part--started after Dorsey became GM.
“Oh yeah, there is a possibility," he said. "I have said before that at some point in time I would like to do differently because I think it is important to coach the team. Now that I truly understand the situation and have been through it and have looked at it… Again, I did not want to put that pressure on somebody else early in this situation. Now knowing, now seeing and now truly believing in that the team is going to take a step forward, I think everything is on the table.”

Jackson said he didn't want to put "pressure on somebody" but one of the most logical in-house hirings when a coach is fired is to name the offensive coordinator as the head coach--at least for the interim--and with no OC on staff, there were not too many viable alternatives to replace Jackson in 2017.

Reports surfaced Tuesday that Texans quarterbacks coach Sean Ryan and former Bengals offensive coordinator Ken Zampese were two potential assistants that Jackson was going to interview. On Thursday, reports came out that Ryan was considering staying with the Texans with opportunities to move up there. Also, a report said that Zampese wasn't being considered as an offensive coordinator.

Jackson will ultimately be the one making the decision on offensive coordinator or even if there's an assistant head coach added, but Dorsey could have a real strong say in that in suggesting offensive-minded coaches who might already be on his short list of head coaching candidates that he surely had when he was named the Browns GM.

Two coaching candidates rumored to be high on Dorsey's list are Chiefs offensive coordinator Matt Nagy and special teams coordinator Dave Toub. If not hired to be a head coach elsewhere, Nagy could be promoted to assistant head coach/offensive coordinator with the Browns. Toub could also be named assistant head coach. There also might be someone on Dorsey's list that has worked with Jackson in the past, as well.

If things don't start quickly in 2018 for Jackson and the Browns, a newly hired coordinator or assistant head coach could be the guy to step in during the season or even after the 2018 season, providing the Browns don't take a major step in the right direction.

Just a theory, but it's worth keeping an eye on in the coming days and weeks to see how much influence the new GM might have on new additions in key areas on the coaching staff.

This comes up every year. Any non-head coaching position is considered a lateral move. Why would the Chiefs just give Matt Nagy or Dave Toub to us for nothing?

I think that Hue and Dorsey will work together. I understand that people are used to the dysfunction of previous regimes, but I believe we have the right people in place.

I would like to see Al Saunders promoted to OC and perhaps hire Zampese to take over the WR unit.

He would need permission, but with Toub especially the chance to move up may be enough for the Chiefs to say yes.

The fact that they haven't been interviewed may mean that the Chiefs have already said no.

By now Hue should have developed some assistant to run the O. What if he died or got in to an accident?

To me, the head coach coaches his coaches. More then he does his players. That is why you have assistant coaches, to coach their position players.

In business, the Manager directs his or her assistants. The assistant managers direct the crew.

I think Al Saunders could step right in. I think he was running a very close version of this offense before Hue was.

Al Saunders is a very good coach and has a ton of respect around the league. I really hope he is our next OC.

For some reason, I don't think he's being considered or they would have just promoted him instead of going through interviews.

I don't think Rooney rules apply simply to head coaching and FO positions.

Well I don't think the Haslam's have Hue Jackson being set up as a Figure head HC. I think we are actually giving him a bit more say than previously. So if not a figure head thankful to be working HC - Hue is going to pick his own OC.
I am curious on the Special Teams coach. Tabor is the one guy I don't believe in.

Just in our last 3 games Special teams played a big part in our losses. GB we had that 65 yard Punt return at the worst possible moment to only have the game tied as the last seconds clicked off the clock.

Then in our last game versus the Steelers, we give up that 100 yard kickoff return right when we were turning Momentum around in our favor!

So so far I don't see us clearing out the staff like a lame duck HC would have coming. We might upgrade.

The guy from Texans I don't blame him for asking to call his own plays. There will be two type of candidates...those who are ready to run the show. Those who will mostly assist Hue in the preparation of Execution which I believe is the thing we can address in the OC hire more than calling plays, which Hue is good at and is over rated. Its the Execution that is most important and for us lacking this past season. Now that could have been cause of the young players especially at the QB position. But I think it was hard for Hue to do as he had other responsibilities. He can game day call plays but we need that 24/7 guy to put the O into a working machine.

jmho

They would have just did the token interview if that was the case.

Saunders is a good coach, but the offensive Brain trust in Berea is stale. We need an offensive coordinator who understands run pass option concepts, how to run out of the shotgun and need to use Njoku and Duke as mismatches more.

Nagy would fit that description. KC looked like a completely different offense this year.

It's all opinion, but I don't think our concepts are stale.

I think we have an inferior qb and inferior WRs. I also think our TEs are inconsistent.

I do not believe we should change offensive philosophies.

I believe that once we start burning teams via the pass, that Hue will run the ball more. I believe that because that is his history.

I believe that a lot of people don't realize just how compromised we were by the personnel we put on the field this year.

Got to give you credit. You put a lot of faith in a coach with a pretty pitiful record.


You and Jimmy must see the same things.

I played the game. I coached the game. I scouted the game.

I have never said Hue was great. In fact, I used to question him when all loved him. However, I think the blame is misplaced. I think he is adequate. I think we are better off w/him than starting over again. That's all.

Maybe the concepts aren't stale. Maybe a team can still win playing in an archaic offense. I haven't seen an NFL team win like that, but I'm sure they exist. Today's offenses are a lot different than they were in the early aughts.

I don't want us to change offensive philosophies as much as I want them to update them to the modern game. Hue's always done well with spot passing and isolation routes for WRs and TEs.

I think traditional football focuses too much how many defenders are in the box vs. them needing to think of how many more defenders are in the box than blockers? That's a good question to ask the Browns. They ran a lot in 21, 13 and 12 and faced a lot of stacked boxes as a result. Below is a picture to illustrate.



The Steelers have 8 in the box, but the Browns have 7 blockers in this formation (as well as other traditional formations). So if everyone were to block their man perfectly, Crow would have to break a tackle somewhere ~the LOS just to have a chance at a big gain. It would serve them better to split out Njoku or not have a fullback in the formation at all. You just gotta put your team in a position to win, no matter the personnel.

A sad thing of note, the Steelers will stack 8 men in the box and still play their safety closer than the Browns.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but a current team can’t say no if it is for a promotion.

I didn't have problems with the offensive concepts.
I felt the game plans lacked cohesion. You mention the heavy package concepts. If a team is going to use those on 1st downs then it makes sense to also run play-action as constraint plays from those same formations in the same down and distances they run from. Otherwise the defense is will get a bead on the what we do from certain formations in certain down and distances.

e.g. There were some games where Hue never called play-action from the 1st down run formations he kept using.

One of the best runs of the season came from the under used shotgun. The bulk of the passing game is from spread personnel which almost universally invites nickel defenses. Nickel defenses should be easier to run against and imho should make up the bulk of the run offense. But the nickel run game seemed like an after thought. The run concepts from nickel were very basic.
When I remember Hue as a playcaller i recall well designed run concepts like this:

But imo those were too few and far between this year.

I think we also relied too much on iso routes and didn't do enough to scheme receivers open through combo, rub/pick and routes designed to beat the coverage as opposed to reliant on the receiver winning.
The snugs formation is a good example of the type of concepts I wanted to see more of:

The formation gave Njoku a free release w/ a natural pick rub against his defender and gave Kizer and easy read and easy throw.

I thought Hue was way too focused on pushing the ball downfield vertically and not focused enough on higher efficiency plays.

Imo having another voice on the staff, game plan meetings and self scouting would have done wonders for the offense this year. And its why I think hiring an OC is gonna really help Hue/offense. I remember Hue as a OC turned HC/playcaller in Oakland and he was damn good there. He took a bunch of castoffs and turned them into a highly productive group.

Yeah.

Rosen to Gordon is the next Manning to Harrison!

Add Barcley as the next Faulk!

Njoku is better than anything Manning had at TE.

You are right, but all assistant coaches are now viewed as equal. The only promotion would be if given a chance to be the head coach. Any move to make him a coordinator would need permission.

Thanks, I didn’t know that had changed.

Ed, when you have an HC that draws game plans that push for 2/3 plays to be pass plays, with disregard to the WR's he has, the QB he has and the weather, what makes you confident that HE can gameplan appropriately?

When you have an HC that approves a defense that plays deep safety with the worst FS in the league, and time and time again all-out blitz and get burned in most critical situations in the game.

I'm all for establishing a team identity, but I think you have to be really incompetent to try to force a team identity without the necessary parts.

What is going to happen in games where its necessary to adapt and change philosophies to win games.

Hue has showed time and time again that he is far from being a football mastermind, I actually say that he's outsmarting himself most of the time, like calling 66% pass plays against the best best Pass D in the leagues, with Kizer under center and bad weather...

In his 32 games here, I never saw any hints that Hue could be a good HC or OC. You talk Hue's about Oakland stint,but just take a good look at the Oakland roster in 2011...

QB Carson Palmer
RB Michael Bush/ Darren McFaden
Wr Heyward Bey/T.J Houshmandzadeh/Denarius Moor
TE: Brandon Myers/Kevin Boss

On D he had players like Desmond Bryant, Richard Seymour, Aaron Curry, Rolando McClain, Quentin Groves, Michael Huff, etc

Hue was fired on the end of the season. People talk like Hue won something, or showed greatness but honestly I can't see it.

All I see is the last of Al Davies Coache's...

If memory doesn't fail me (which it often does), he was the OC for the Raiders when Hue was their HC. Since he is aging, he may want a less stressful role, but that's purely speculation on my part.