I am not convinced that what we have on the roster is final.

I don't believe Berry is done.

Our linebacker position looks weak and shallow. Not much experience and no great display of talent with what we have.

I think we are ok in the defensive backfield.

Not sure if we are done on the DL.

Clay Matthews might be worth a flyer. He had a good season last year and he brings needed experience. He has played both inside and outside.

Clowney and Gerald McCoy are still possibles on the DL

I think a vet LB makes sense ... Bradham perhaps? Or just wait for cuts

I thought McCoy signed with Dallas, but I could be wrong

You are right about McCoy.

I didn't know that the Cowboys signed him.

I feel like there is already a thread about our linebackers LOL

I'd sure like to say there is a Clay Mathews on the team again,
Who wouldn't!

History, I'm afraid the next moves to expect are a trusted known commodity veteran already on the team to be cut and make everybody ask why.
I hope not.

Why does not much experience = weak and shallow ....

To me it means there an unknown ... we’ll know if its weak and shallow sometime in October ... u may be proven right but i don’t agree at this point ... unproven does not = weak ... and depending on how many we plan to play it may not be shallow ... *L* ... i agree with shallow ... don’t agree with weak ...

Wilson’s PT last year will serve him well this year ... he flashed and is a man on a mission ...
We didn’t see much of Taki and I like the dude from LSU we nabbed ...

Lets hope there bettor than they look to U at this point and surprise us all ...

Taki hardly played and he was picked before Wilson.

Wilson had a decent rookie year. Schobert who lined everyone up and was the defensive captain is gone.

They signed a jouneyman to a one year deal.

Kirksey is gone.

Any star players? How about depth at the position?
There are 3 other guys on the roster I have never heard of.
We drafted a player in the third round.

Who's the leader of the linebackers?

Little experience and no vet leaders. Not a linebacker on the team near the top twenty.

So unless one or more makes a giant leap what do we have?

I don't have a problem developing players but you need position leadership first.

I mostly agree. It might not hurt to bring in a vet backer. I don't know if we are all that weak at the position. We are green at the position so some might view that as being weak.

Let 'em play. Plus, we are probably going to be in 2 backer sets a good portion of the time.

I still don’t see an answer to my question ... why does unproven = weak ... i agreed we were shallow ...

U seem to be ASSuming Taki isn’t any good just because he couldn’t take PT away from Sho last year ... it also sounds like u don’t think the rookie will help much this year ... i think he will help our run D ... dudes a baller in the run game ...

Your spot on about the leadership ... can’t argue that one ... it would definitely help and is needed ... Clay Matthews is still out there and there maybe more ... like your thread title says ... moves to be made ... some vet leadership could be one of them ...

But if we don’t add any I’m not about to write this group off just based off inexperience and no vet leadership ... I’m excited to see this group and its a free roll as most think like u and the unit will not be good ...

Last year Schobert led the group.

What we have now is unproven. Maybe that is more accurate.

Normally you judge a position group by their previous performance. Kind of hard to do that now seeing that Wilson is the only guy, and he was a rookie.

It is not like we are going into this year with a veteran group with proven history.

Unproven = weak? Not necessarily but certainly not a proven strength.

Yeah, I’d call our LB’s unproven ... without much proven depth either.

What would be ideal? For Wilson, Taki, and Phillips to be the answers!

I know many here wanted to draft Malik Harrison. I was reading, maybe Pluto, that Woods prefers speed in the middle and Phillips has that.

We will see how it works out. Seems the pick was scheme specific.

You never know how it is going to work out 2-3 years down the road, but I really do think we had a good draft.

As to the point of the thread, no doubt we will continue to build and add. There are still good football players out there.

It happens this way every year. You have the initial free agent signing right out of the gate, then it stops as teams concentrate on the draft. The draft started last Thursday...give it a week or two and we will seem more movement on the free agent front.

I am sure we have some irons in the fire and will look to add a few more players. This is the value season. Players and agents want the big contract on the initial wave. Well, they didn't get that, so now they are looking for a contract. That changes things.

At this point, teams aren't in any hurry like they were several weeks ago. Strike fast. Now the players agents are interested in talking turkey with the GM's.

Now were on the same page ...

All good.

Our top three linebackers were all bad last year. The guy from GB stinks. Wilson struggled and Taki was lost when he was on the field.

We lost our two best LBers and one of-if not our best--special teams guy who was also a LBer.

The unit is weak.

So come on man, tell us what you are really thinking.

I tried to answer Diam's question. Is that okay?

Ahhhh, you really do need to develop a sense of humor my friend. It makes life so much easier to digest.

Check the link below for missed tackles and %/missed tackles. Then, check the "Rat" column for passer rating on targets vs defenders. You can click the column header to see them in descending order. Check out our DBs "Mtkl" (missed tackles) and Mtkl% (missed tackle pct). Heads up: our defense lead the league in missed tackles. Other heads up: our Safeties got worked by opposing QBs re: QB rate.

I *think* we helped the Safety positions in FA and the draft. I'm not so sure about our LBs, and I'm not talking about losing Schobert. He lead the team in number of missed tackles (but not %).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2019_advanced.htm#all_advanced_defense

We’ll see ...

Wilson struggles at times ... he also played well in spots ... he should have stood in school ... IF he did he may have went in rnd 1 .... and lasts not forget that PT he got last year will help him immensely ....

Taki Was lost as a rookie that got very little playing time ....

They were both rookies .... players take there biggest jump between years 1 and 2 ...

IF they don’t improve they will be weak ... i expect improvement, only question is how much and will it be enough ...

I like the kid they drafted ... great fit for us ... we needed help in the run game ... dude should help right out of the gate ...

I am rooting big time for TakiTaki ... i mean what island doesn’t have a Taki bar ...

U


I was one of the guys who wanted Harrison. Harrison was faster than Phillips in the 3 come and 20 yard shuttle. He was either exactly the same in the 40 or a couple of hundredths faster, depending on what site you are on. With Harrison going to the Ravens we will see if Phillips was the right choice.

Just tried to answer your question, bro. You've reached the point of not listening to me. I noticed it last year and now again. Hope your instincts are right and that I am wrong.

he was being sarcastic

unless we can find a veteran that knows what Woods is doing, I really don't think we'll do it.

I don't see Clay wanting to come here, and I don't see us going after someone his age.

On the DLine, I wish we'd do a little more, but I think they're gonna let the dough rise and see what they have. Plus, I think they've turned their attention to things like re-signing Myles.

I think, for the most part, we've settled on our defense for the time being.

I like Harrison as well. Just sharing what I read. It came across that it was a team specific pick.

If that is who Woods preferred, so be it. It might just be BS. I don't claim to own the comment.

I was trying to be PC and nice.

But I said it weak and shallow until proven.

The only thing I would add is that Wilson for a rookie had some good moments. Taki who was hyped by Eliot Wolf could not find the field becasue he just cound not catch on to his assignments.

I really don't see how the unit can be expected to perform well if the plan is to start Wilson, Taki, and rookie Jacob Phillips.

That is placing to much responsibility on way to little experience. Add to that the whole virus interuption into a normal preparation and I see a problem.

I saw the same. Phillips over Harrison was a 'scheme pick'.
I'm not sure that I'm buying it, but that was the reason given.

We will see - eventually.

I think having so many OSU fans on the board makes people more familiar with Harrison. I'm among that group. But I'm also not a person who wants us to draft that many OSU players. Once NCAA players leave college and advance to the pros I want the best players for the Browns drafted no matter where they went to school. But as an OSU fan I have a lot more familiarity with Harrison than I do with Phillips. So I'm in a wait and see mode. I didn't really favor drafting Harrison over Phillips because I don't actually know enough about both players to make that determination.

This years draft turned out very odd in one respect. In the first round we drafted a LT and the very next pick was a LT. In the second round, we drafted a S and the very next pick the Bucs drafted a S. Then when we selected Phillips, the Ravens drafted Harrison right after our pick, both being LB's.

So I believe that will make it much easier to see whether the BPA at their respective positions was how things turned out from the new/old FO.

I'm not sure if it was a 'scheme pick' or more of a 'had a better interview with us pick.' I suppose the two could be related.

The reporter writing about it said that Berry said it was more of a scheme pick than anything.

I was looking at the FA linebackers remaining.

Slim pickens.

My guess is they will either make a trade or most likely wait for cuts and salary cap casualties as time moves forward.

The more I look at this the more I dislike not signing Schobert.

when they decided to not make a competitive offer there should have been other options planned.

I think this position group will prove to be a problem unless additions are made.

Reminds me of the OL last year which went the entire season unsolved.

We had BUMS playing tackle last year ... they STUNK before last year ...

These guys are unproven ... it may turn out to be weak but this is nothing like the PROVEN CRAP we had playing tackle for us last year ... these guys may end up crap but we don’t know that yet ...

True.

But there were issues at RG as well.

Both of us pointed at the tackles early and often/

Last year Schobert was the guy lining up the defense.

Goodson I know little about. Other than he has been around and he was signed to a one year deal.

Taki has done next to nothing. I think Wilson will improve.
However, he is not ready to be a group leader.

We shall see. I always hope for the best.

I would LOVE for them to sign Matthews! So I know it will never happen. I am sure they will make some more moves and sign some other players but I doubt there will be any major signings or trades. Just the usual comings and goings...

While both technically will be stack LBers, they will play in different defensive fronts (4-3 ___ 3-4).

In listening to the pre- schedule release program Berry was on. He said they have still have work to do on the roster.

I don't what he is working on. But they can not be comfortable with this position group. It is an obvious weakness.

I was livid when they passed on Harrison. I wish I had some knowledge or more info on what Woods scheme is going to be. Is Woods going to run a 4/2 similar to wilks of last season ?

Would you buy Clay's jersey?

I would seriously consider it. I imagined it signed by two generations! Wow!

Good to hear that this roster is not good to go yet. This shifted into a "win now" I suspect.

Traditionally in the NFL 2nd year players on D have big time growth in their game.

A lot of opinions on the two youngsters Taki and Mack are from the beginning of their playing season.

I thought both showed growth in their game especially near the end.

During the season I read on several occasions that Mack was learning the game fast and making calls adeptly was in his future. Possibly it could have been "HEARD" as in TV analyst talking about him with conversations with our Coaching staff.

We definitely do not have a sure thing out there until we see it. In the 4-3 D and 4-2 D So much will be determined by our 4 DL men. Richardson is a beast. Garrett is back, so is Vernon and Larry we added some depth from last year as we had No names backing up our starters last year.

We have added Billings and Jordan Elliot probably the steal of the draft I thought. this should help our young LBs tremendously.

jmho

Definitely a new chemistry on D. But I’m excited to see how it comes together. The d line can be a significant catalyst for everyone behind them.

I don't know what Wood's plan is.

Myself I am not big on 4-2. You have to have the right personnel.

My guess is Wilson and Goodson are starters. I think offensive game plans will be to attack the middle with TE's and backs. Shallow crosses and seam routes. Make them read coverage.

I agree with you about the DL. I do believe we will have much better rotations.

At this point I still think we will be exploited in match-ups.

However, I don't think we are done with this roster.

Yeah, but it's pretty much "pencils down" as far as this offseason goes to assemble the roster.

I could be wrong but I believe Berry will make some move to improve the unit.

What move? I don't know.

I think he wants to see what he has on the roster now. Whenever preseason rolls around, there will be a lot of veterans on the bubble, or cut, and I think that is when we might make a move.

If we are serious about trading for a LB, we'd probably be best served by looking at which teams drafted LBers in the first three rounds to get an idea of which teams might be willing to deal.


That said, it isn't uncommon for a 4th string LBer to earn a starting job at those positions, or at least to get considerable playing time, so I think the group we have might surprise some folks.

Andra Davis comes to mind as a 5th rounder and was a year 2 starter, but played in all 16 games as a rookie. Schobert as a 4th rounder, and Kirksey as a 3rd rounder come to mind as well.

I hope he’s looking for some vet leadership at the LBer spot ... other than Matthews I’m not sure who else is available that could make a difference ... he can still get after the passer ... I’m not sure who else out there could provide vet leadership and be an upgrade on the field over one of the kids ...

I like what these guys have done so far ... i have faith in them to get it figured it out ...

I just don't hold out much hope that we're going to find anyone that'll be an impact player past this point. That only happens to Baltimore.

Maybe we do. LB is a position that's very scheme dependent. A scheme casualty for a team that's going through coaching changes could be a boon for us.

j/c,

I'm somewhat surprised that people are not talking more about our lack of depth @DE. Clayborn is a good PRS, but not so good vs the run and Thomas is a liability in either case. With Vernon's injury history ... we are one injury away from being week on the edge.

I remember Andra Davis had a tremendous game against Pittsburgh his rookie year (IIRC) .. I remember thinking “hmm, he might be a steal” .. he was a good pick in retrospect

I think the path is clear for us to pick up a Lb who gets cut. The FO has shown that they don't value the position group as strongly as the DL or backfield, so didn't want to spend a lot of money in FA on it. Not to mention that there weren't that many decent ones available, and the value just wasn't there.

There will be Lbs who are decent and have good value who will be cut. With all the improvements the FO has made in other areas, I can't see them depending on the current players. At least I hope not.

I might be alone in this, but I thought Bryan Cox did a nice job last year. He isn't real flashy, but he he set the edge fairly well and got some penetration. I also liked his motor.

He's with the Bills now.

What? We cut him?

I don't remember whether we cut him, or just didn't re-sign him, but he's definitely with the Bills now.

Okay. Thanks.

That's a bummer. He wasn't a flash player, but I was impressed by just how solid and steady he was. I think we should have kept him over Chad Thomas.

He won't make the Bills roster...he's JAG. I'd rather have Ogbah.

Why not spend some cap money on Warford, all pro guard 3 yrs in row and 28.....attitude....don't understand why he's on third team in few years....GO Browns!!!!

Gotta think where there was coaching/ scheme changes, there might be someone available.
I am not quite sure the differences in Wilks 4-3. vs. Woods. As far as offense we do know the Oline will operate differently. Maybe a trade of some sort for scheme fit reasons.

Players that could be cut

Posted this in another thread, but it probably fits better here, sorry.

They already got 1 cut right with Warford.

I'd look for a couple of these LBs to be cut or available via trade for minimal compensation. Not sure which ones would be a scheme fit, but I suspect Berry will try to add another veteran to the LB group.

Alex Mack is 35?!?!?

I was shocked to read that as well. After checking, I can report that he is 34 ...... and won't be 35 until November.

Wasn't he drafted by Mangini?

IIRC he was like 23-24 when he was drafted, but even with that I would have thought he was like 32

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Mack

34 until November, but still

This bulletin just in: people get older. Who knew?

I'll back away from Mack for two reasons,

1. He's 35..

2. Don't like the way he played us.

It only gets worse as you get older. Time has a way of compressing. Things you think you did maybe 8 years ago turn out to be 25 years ago.

good point ... we’re all getting OLD!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB1D9wWxd2w

Only the lucky ones.

I agree...In addition, Clayborn can only play the LE spot. And unable to play the other side, due to his health condition...Which really leaves us suspect at the other DE spot...So def, need to keep looking at that spot.

Look at it this way, if you aren't getting older, you just died.

That is the reality we all face. Mother Nature is Unforgiving, she spares nobody when she acts up. Father Time in unrelenting. He doesn't stop for anybody. When he pulls your number, you're done.

I don't think Mack played us. We didn't extend him when we should have (season or just before the start of the season before he could become a FA) and he was transition tagged with a new regime.

For 5 seconds thought the Browns were getting a new OLB.

There are players there that I am sure we will look at closely.

We don't need a center, but I truly do not understand comments like this.

The NFL is a business. Teams cut players all the time. Loyal players like Joe Haden, Phil Dawson, etc. Are the teams "playing" those players or just doing business. Teams do players dirty far more than players doing teams dirty.

Why would a great player like Alex Mack want to play for a team that was going to purposely lose games when he could go somewhere else and play for a good team while earning big money?

I wanted to keep him, but I’ve never, for one moment, blamed Mack for wanting out.

Not sure if you played competitive sports or not, but bro....can you imagine how difficult it would be to play for a team that is purposely trying to lose?

It's why I never agreed w/the plan from the get-go. It makes more sense in baseball and basketball because they play so many more games and you are bound to win some of the games. Also, you don't have much time between games so you don't dwell on the losses as much.

Football? There are only 16 games compared to 162 and 82 in the other sports. You have all week to dwell on the loss. More media focus on one game than in other sports because it's a week between games.

It's so hard for players to endure losing in football and I would NEVER want to be part of a team that was trying to lose because the geeks in the FO thought it was "smart." This team has acquired talent, but it's years later and they still haven't figured out how to win on a consistent basis. Dumbest plan ever!!!

I have, but not at a high level. Stopped playing TEAM sports competitively in my early teens (hockey and baseball, and never played for a loser, btw haha).


Anyway, yeah it would suck, and if my allegiance wasn’t strongly tied to the city I played in, I’d be bolting an incompetently-run franchise as soon as I got the chance, as Mack did.

Edit: interesting angle about a team bring a constant loser, and how it might be worse for the players in football than other sports. Never considered that, but it makes a lot of sense.

I don't think Mack played us. He was pretty upfront. He was leaving.

Schwartz is the one who played us.

100%

Schwartz certainly upset me much more than Mack. I miss Mack much more myself. Was actually glad to be rid os Schwartz, but really not pleased with the sleds we put in place later.

I hated losing both of those guys - while understanding why they would want to leave the cluster that we had then...and continued on after they left.

I had to look up this train-wreck:

During Mack's Browns career ('09-'14) he played for Mangini, Shurmur, Chudzinski & Pettine.

The GMs were Kokinis (meaning Mangini), Heckert, Lombardi & Farmer.

Yikes.

Schwartz was here from '12-'15.

Talk about musical chairs of leadership

Not only was Mack rightfully leaving a horrible situation (no direction other than constant losing), but he was also going to a fantastic situation. He was getting pushed out of Cleveland and pulled to Atlanta.

Dude followed Shanny, who had Mack playing his best (which is saying something since Mack was so solid year-in/out). He went to a team that made a legit SB run. That offense was incredible. Oh yeah... dude got PAID.

Cleveland was a dumpster fire. Atlanta (at least their offense) was just about to go nuts. Mack knew he'd be playing in an offense well-suited to him.

Boom. End of story.

Yeah, by all intents and purposes Atlanta should have been Super Bowl champs

Can't say I was glad to be rid of either one. I just think Mack did it the right way and let it be known he wasn't going to sign here.

In general, I tend to give the players the benefit of the doubt in these situations (in general... I know every situation/person is different). Players try to walk a thin line between appearing to be loyal to fans/teams while also doing what's best for them. To me, Mack made it clear he (understandably) didn't want to be part of this mess, while dodging the 'malcontent' label.

I really think Mack handled it better. Each got what they wanted. Just not hoping to embrace these two outcomes as something to embrace as precedents going forward. With Schwartz, we didn't allow ourselves to be used as a chip for his eventual contract. That may be incorrect or invalid, but it struck me that way at the time. Mack handled it better.

I think both Mack and Schwartz handled it better than Sashi did.

Joe thomas fits that and he stayed.. I guess character doesn't matter anymore

... . Did you really have to go there? Go ahead...fan the flames. ,

Both made decisions regarding Cleveland during their careers, and I don't blame either for their choices.

It's really no different than us working at our respective jobs. Different companies/divisions/sites have their positives and negatives. I would never blame someone for leaving a bad work situation for something that's obviously better... especially when they were professional and transparent the whole time.

The Browns issues were they did not win and played musical chairs with their coaches and GM's.

Let's make sure we have the Mack facts correct. Mack wanted big money and he didn't care where he got it from. On April 9, 2014, it was announced that the Jacksonville Jaguars, who just had a 4-12 season like the Browns, offered Mack a five-year contract worth reportedly $42 million. The Browns had a maximum of five days to match Jacksonville's offer, which they did on April 11. Mack had been previously assigned the transition tag, nullifying his free agency unless a team signed Mack to an offer sheet. During Week 6 against the Pittsburgh Steelers on October 12, 2014, Mack was carted off the field due to a leg injury. X-rays tested positive that his leg had a broken fibula, forcing Mack out for the rest of the 2014 campaign. Prior to Mack's injury, he had never missed a single snap in his professional career. On March 2, 2016, Mack voided his 5-year contract with the Cleveland Browns thus making him a free agent. Yes, he eventually left for Atlanta but they were only 8-8 in 2015 even though the Browns had improved to 7-9 without his services in 2015. Yes it turned out to be a good situation with the Falcons going 11-5 in 2016 but it certainly wasn't because he wanted to be on a winner, it just happened to work out that way. After all, he was poised to go to Jacksonville. Even at that, the Browns gave him the long term deal but he wanted out and voided the deal.

Schwartz was a little different because again the Browns offered a big contract but Schwartz bolted to KC for less money. The Chiefs were 11-5 in 2015 so Schwartz did bolt to a winner and KCC went 12-4 his first year there and won the Super Bowl his 4th year in KC. The Browns might have offered more money but they didn't offer stability or the chance to win.

That said, there's no guarantees from the player or the team. It's a business period. The Browns have some big deals coming up soon - Garrett, Chubb, Ward and Mayfield. The thought is each of these players will be signed but will they? What's the mindset of the players? Do they strive to play for a winner? Do they want to test the market? Do they just want out like Mack and Schwartz or are they committed like Thomas?

I'm not so sure the Browns sign all these guys, too many variables. First will be how high the Browns have to go to keep Garrett. Second would be will the Browns pay the high dollar for a RB when recent history is showing that it would be a bad investment. Mayfield will be a no brainer if the Browns are winning but Wards deal could be contingent on what the Browns do with Garrett, Chubb and Mayfield. Lots of questions with not to many answers due to uncontrolled variables. Time will tell...….

Plus add in the length of average NFL career....don't stay in a bad situation a day longer than you need to....GO Browns!!!

Again, the Browns made Schwartz a contract offer, but his brother, who played for the Chiefs, said that Mitch should check with them and see what they would offer. Mitch did that. He didn't shop the league. He checked with the team his brother played for, before coming back to the Browns to accept their offer. The Browns then cut their offer. Bear in mind that this was during the "legal tampering period".

So, Schwartz then went to the Chiefs .... where he won a Super Bowl. We, on the other hand, were stuck with Austin Pasztor. it's no coincidence that we allowed 66 sacks in 2016, even with Joe Thomas. (and, IIRC, we got 3 or 4 QBs crushed and knocked out that year)

I guess that depends on what you think character is. Most people think what's doing what's best for your career is doing what's best for your family. Most people think doing what's best for your family is the highest level of your character.

Then there are football fans who think what's doing best for their teams is a measurement of character. I think anyone who would value dedication to a corporation over doing what's best for their family needs to take a long look in the mirror.

People who think a player should care more about dedication to a team over their family may wish to join them.

Sorry, didn't know posting the article about players likely to be cut would totally derail this thread, haha.

That is right except that the Browns' original offer to Schwartz was a generous one to get him to sign before the Free Agency period started and his agent was told the offer would be reduced once it began.

I meant to put that in there, but forgot. Thanks for pointing that out!

And he got back to them the day before contracts could be signed.

So .... who got hurt in that deal? Schwartz? He went to a winning team, and won a Super Bowl last year.

The Browns played a year with .... Austin Pasztur at RT ... getting all kinds of QBs killed. We even had to sign some guy off the street to start a few games. We have struggled to try to find a suitable RT ever since Schwartz left. Hopefully we have done so now .... what .... 5 years later?

I see some ONE YEAR contracts on some talent out there that are not getting the multi-year contract offers they expected. We are a good landing spot for them to come on board show case their talents and if we end up winning and getting into the post season just bonus on their part in getting a good contract in the FA market next year.

Clowney as an example... we can afford a 10+mil one year contract to him. So it doesn't have to be him but its the type of move that is ahead of us.

jmho

Really, you believe the Browns can sign Clowney to a 1-year deal for 10-million plus when he's already rejected 18.5 million over 3-years? That would never happen in a million years. The only way you get Clowney is a 2-year or multi year deal. He just came off a 1-year deal with the franchise tag of 17.12 million so he's not interested in that type of deal. He also had a no franchise tag agreement put into his deal with the Seahawks so the chance of him signing a 1-year deal was spelled out long ago.

Now maybe he signs for 17-18 million long term with a team he feels is going to win and be playoff bound but I think it's a pipe dream that he signs a 1-year deal and 10 million isn't even a viable discussion point. He has nothing to prove so a prove it deal is a dream. I agree that his price will/might come down the closer camp gets but there's a market for him - it's just the price and years and 1-year at 10 million is not even a talking point.

I don't disagree with a thing you've said about Schwartz and Mack in this thread. However, to the above that I have bolded & italicized...Schwartz lost a fair amount of money when his bluff got called.

We both lost at the moment it happened.

Another point about Clowney. He could have left the franchise tag ability in his contract with the Seahawks and been franchised this year for 120% of his 2019 franchise tag meaning he would have made 20.54 million in 2020 with another franchise tag.

Now rumor would have it that the Seahawks offered Clowney a 4-year deal that was backend loaded. Details are sketchy but it was something like 14.5-million year 1 with escalators of 2.75 million for years 2 thru 4 where he's make 17.25 million in year 2, 20 million in year 3 and 22.75 million in year 4 which works out to 18.6-million per year. Naturally, Clowney has rejected this because of the back end load and the eventual cut chances in years 3 and 4.

I don't expect Clowney to sign anywhere that doesn't have either a front end loaded deal or huge guarantees. He's turned down a 1-year deal by refusing to be tagged and he's turned down a 4-year 18.6 million dollar backend loaded deal. It's obvious that neither one of those options are going to land Clowney.

Letting Schwartz walk was CRIMINAL.

JUST LIKE SCHOBERT!!!!!!!!!

Look at the clowns we have coming back at linebacker.

INEXCUSABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree... we committed Grand Theft!

The 3rd round compensatory pick we should get for Scho will be way better than he was.

Yea, keep thinking that when our pathetic linebackers whiff all year.

I’m sure Mitch is THRILED Sashi and company were morons ... sometimes the smartest guy(s) in the room ain’t so smart ... its called being to smart for your own good ....

We said we were going to look for and retain good young players and then they messed up and bit there noses to spite there faces ... BRILLIANT!!!

Too bad we won’t get a pick back because we signed Hooper and Conklin.

I think we made a mistake by not "taking" Schwartz back after he tested the waters...but..we said the deal was off if not accepted beforehand.

Keeping one's word doesn't always pan out at the moment...but that goes a long way when trying to establish something...anything.

Schwartz lost a TON of money and we lost a terrific RT. Both sides lost. Smart or dumb or something more detailed...both sides lost.

I wonder if Schwartz, the Super Bowl Champion, thinks he lost?

I wonder if Schwartz' financial planner thinks he lost?
After all, these guys are businessmen who sacrifice their bodies and brains for the almighty dollar.

No way the agent who created that loss, believed that Alex Smith was going to be able to lead the way to the promised land and - with wins - make up for the $$$ lost.

In the real world, decisions get made based on the information available at the time the decision is made. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Both Schwartz' bank account and the Browns team lost that day.

We disagree on who lost. That's fine.

I think Sashi was a moron for pulling the offer. The Browns lost big-time. It was one of many terrible decisions he made.

Schwartz didn't lose in any sense of the word.

I've stated numerous times on this board that the Browns - Sashi and/or anyone else involved - made a mistake by playing hardball there. I understand why he/they did that, but it was a mistake.

Sashi's best act was bumbling Hue's "trade" for McCarron...and his biggest mistake was not firing Hue by the end of the win less season.

Except for what... a million dollars?

Oh, I see.

What does Hue have to do w/any of what we were discussing?

We're not really having a legit conversation. You are just looking to argue. Have a good night.

What is with all the Sashi-bashing tonight? The key word/words in the thread title is/are 'to be', not 'were'. Movin' on...

I was responding to this quote by you:

" It was one of many terrible decisions he made."

They were morons for making the initial statement .... spin it all u want Willie .... WE LOST ... I’m sure Mitch’s financial advisor has absorbed Mitch’s loss just fine .... We haven’t had a RT since he left ... and we just paid paid out the ying yang for one .... oh vey did we ever lose ...

Riddle me this Batman ....

If we were all about keeping our word with Mitch and slamming the door in his face .... what about us saying we were going to acquire and keep young talented football players ... we didn’t set a very good example on that one ...

What do you think Schwartz would tell you if you could ask him? Do you think he'd waste even a second lamenting a million dollar loss if that meant he had remained with the Browns after everything that's happened over the last several years?

The notion is absurd. Sashi messed up. End of story. There's nothing else there.

This is twice you have gotten on me about Sashi. Folks bash Hue all the time. Way more than Sashi. You don't say a word. It's amazing how people pick and choose what should be said and what shouldn't.

It's amazing how you remember who says what.

That must be very important to you.

We made the BEST offer he would see...we told him that the offer was good right now...not later...only right now. He left anyway...and for less money.

We tried to keep young talent by paying him more money than ANYONE ELSE WOULD OFFER.

We didn't want to get "played". I've said a hundered times since that happened that it was a mistake to not take him back. That doesn't change the FACT that we offered him more than the rest of the NFL thought he was worth. THAT part is how you keep young talent.

It's amazing that you point that out. It can't possibly be because they both happened today in the same thread. Perhaps, what I say must be very important to you? LOL........go away, Rish. I already ignored your absurd comment about Baker the person in the other thread. I'm not going to fight w/you. Have a good night.

That depends on what day you asked Schwartz that question. The day after he lost a million dollars plus is all that is relevant to this argument.

And yes...Sashi messed that up. Not sure how many more times I need to say that...but I'll keep saying that.

I wouldn't say what you say is important to me but I do find you interesting. If you ever got a lifetime ban, I don't think this place would be the same. It certainly wouldn't be as interesting.

*L* .... ya ... except we didn’t KEEP THE YOUNG TALENT .... u know ... the part that actually helps u win and is all that matters ....

INSTEAD ... we kept our word and slammed the door in his face ... BRILLIANT!!!!

U usually don’t pee in the wind ... why u doing it now ... ..

I will text you about that last comment. LOL

It's quite simple...I didn't like the guy.

p.s. That was not directed explicitly at you; there were a few others.

Interesting way to frame the discussion.

We didn't 'slam the door in his face'. We made him the best offer he would see and said that it's good right now...if you leave without signing, it's off the table. That happens all the time in business.

He slammed the door in his own face...and we should have left that door ajar.

That's fine that you didn't like him. Is it okay that I didn't like Sashi?

We disagree on who was more to blame. Is that okay?

I'd say 'interesting way to frame the particular question that was asked'.

My framing of the discussion would be that both sides made mistakes and both sides lost.

No ... he came back and wanted to talk again ... we then slammed the door in his face ..

We pulled the offer off the table ... and your suggesting we weren’t open to possibly paying him less ... Naaaa ....

I’m out Willie ... your being hard headed ... *L* ...

I like the thought, but signing Conklin might off-set the loss.

I think it is balanced by contracts lost V contracts signed, or something like that.

Just passing thru...

Calling Sashi an idiot or a moron shows me that some people still don't fully understand what we were doing. And that's ok.

All GM's make mistakes.

It's sorta hypocritical to call Sashi names, but praise Dorsey. They've both equally made mistakes.

It's obvious which parties are here to argue and some will even change their stance on topics just to argue with certain people.

It is certainly interesting.

Definitely something to this here. I would never expect a lifetime ban. 1 good football post supersedes 15 sophomoric posts.

When it comes to contracts and player value, I don't think anyone in Cleveland was ever as good as Sashi at this. To solidify your point, Sashi was probably too good, which is probably why things went south with Schwartz.

I hope that's one thing Berry learned while he was here with him...

j/c,

Not this again! Good grief let it go already.

Debatable, but I bet Sashi's financial planner thinks he lost. Sashi lost his lucrative job because Haslam couldn't stand the losing. You could make the argument that that losing is directly tied to the elite OL talent that walked.
The RT is still in the league, but the GM is not. Sure, Schwartz lost out on a couple bucks, but he's an elite talent... he had to have known he had another contract left in his career after the move to KC.

Pretty sure Haslam was still paying him after he was fired and now he is probably getting paid more to be the COO of an organization that owns three professional basketball teams.

He, and his financial planner, are probably quite alright.



Ironically, offensive line transactions could be one of the reasons why Dorsey was let go.

Schwartz is still employed by an NFL team, one that just won a SB at that. Sashi was unceremoniously booted, and probably won't get another opportunity in the NFL. As silly as the argument might be, why is there even a question over who "won"?


Dorsey is irrelevant to this side conversation (though probably more relevant to the actual thread). Actually... did Dorsey sign Schwartz away from us?

So was Dorsey. What's your point?




He did.

You'll never let it go while you point the finger at others at the same time.

Clearly, you need to do a better job at following the thread/conversation.

Oh I followed it. Right to the bitter end.

Cards on the table... I had a much shorter and much more snarky response to your bringing Dorsey in to the convo prepped and ready to fly.

But then noticed that your reply really isn't any further from the actual thread topic than my post.

...throwing stones and glass houses and all....

Sashi rocked it with Kenny Britt & Jamie Collins ... he showed the rest of the league a thing or two about player value ...

Kudo’s to the Sashster on those two awesome value deals ... ...

Sashis record as GM is all you need to know
About his ability as a GM.
He made Dorsey's job that much harder and so forth
Sashi will go in NFL history as one of the worst
GMS ever.
And Cleveland sports history too.he might be worse than the GM under Ted Stephian.

Snarky is fine by me. The reason I brought Dorsey into this is because you referenced offensive line as a reason Sashi could have been fired. I noted the same could be said about Dorsey. But sure, if that warrants a snarky response, by all means, it's a free country.

I need to quit drinking ... for a hazy moment I thought I was back in 2016. Good grief.

Moves still to be made if I was GM:

Jadaveon Clowney DE/DL
Larry Warford RG
Clay Matthews III LB/PRS

Moves still to be made.

Bring back Jabrill Peppers,
Bring back Emmanuel Ogbah,
Bring back Joe Schobert. among others: Phil Dawson isn't coming back.

I forgot to mention that we have $48-50M available cap space, and Vernon's $15M comes off next year. Assuming Clowney gets $18M, Warford gets $7M, and Matthews gets $2-3M, its should leave ample cap space to re-sign Myles Garrett to his mega contract next year.

If the OBJ trade win/loss needed to be determined today, yes, give me Peppers and the first rounder. However, let's see how OBJ does in year two.

The return on the Ogbah trade was laughable.

The re-sign Schobert train boat sailed the minute we didn't offer him an extension last season. Joe is quoted saying as much.

You forgot to begin with "Once upon a time..."

I’m glad the refs deleted that cheap shot.

I bet you are too, Memphis.

I see they also deleted the other posts w/all the swear words. Well done. I'm guessing no one reported them earlier and that was the reason for the delay.

I saw them, but I don’t report nuthin to the fuzz

From NFL Now on @nflnetwork: 38-year-old Jason Peters has recently told friends if Tom Brady can play into his 40s, so can he. The #Eagles have remained in contact with him as other teams (@JamesPalmerTV mentioned the #Browns, #Jets and #Broncos) lurk.

@MikeGarafolo

I guess we are still in talks with Peters.

I don't really care either way. But it is always nice to see you notify moderators on posts you are not comfortable with at a moments' notice.

I can't believe you peeps are still at war over Sashi.

There is much bigger fish to fry.

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez & Amazing.

We just have to remember who brought Sashi into the thread. Who is the one who always brings up Sashi?

Those bringing up Sashi and "his record" are trying to instigate or never understood what was going on.

I mentioned Dorsey because there are actually people who foolishly believe he did a good job.

And yes, for the casual fan this is not important stuff.

Dude, you are hysterical. Every post you make is designed to discredit other posters or maybe even one poster. It's amazing how much energy you exert on trying to not allow for different opinions. I think different opinions are a good thing. Why can't you just state your case of why Sashi was so great and why Dorsey was so bad and why Baker is so great and leave it at that? Why must you spend so much time trying to make others look bad? It's a public message board. People are going to have different opinions on the team.

Priceless.

Dude thinks Sashi cant get a job in the league cause he embarrassed all the other gm’s in the league by getting so much value in all his moves ...

That about says it all ...

For all the Sashi homers, can they provide any proof that his moves as GM has paid off dividends. ?
I can't. At the end of the day its still a franchise that as yet to even reach .500.

Would you please first describe exactly what-is a Sashi homer? Is that someone who wants him back? Or who understands what he was trying to do in an environment of chaos doing a job he was never hired to do in the first place?

Also, please define what "paid off" means as far as the moves Sashi made. Do you credit or blsme him for how the assets he created were later used by his successor?

Just looking for a little perspective before watching the wretched beating of a dead horse.

We need a gif of Mason Rudolph re-starting the fight that Myles had ended.

An overheard conversation between Jimmy Hasslam and an unknown Sashi doubter..

Jimmy: "That nobody is Sashi Brown. He once was an associate of ours. They call him Baba Yaga"

Doubter: "The Boogeyman?"

Jimmy: "Well Sashi wasn't exactly the Boogeyman. He was the one you sent to kill the Boogeyman."

Doubter: "Oh..."

Jimmy: "Sashi is a man of focus, commitment, sheer will... something you know very little about. I once saw him kill a Hue Jackson trade in a bar with a pencil. With a ********... pencil. Then suddenly one day he asked to leave. It's over a woman, of course. So I made a deal with him. I gave him an impossible task. A job no one could have pulled off. The bodies he buried and the trades he made those years laid the foundation of what we are now. And then my son, a few days after his wife died, you steal his car and kill his dog."


What has Sashi Brown done for us? Dude, Sashi was the John Wick we needed in order to turn this thing around.

These are lies.

Thanks.

QFT

Dude, stop making fun of Sashi. He had an addiction he had to feed.

I have no problem if he likes Sashi and wants to declare it. Like I said.......different opinions are good.

What bothers me is that this crap plays out over and over. I made several posts about the current discussion at the time. I never once mentioned device. He makes 3 posts in the last two days and all 3 of them were about me. The strategy is to get others to look unfavorably at a poster rather than have an actual discussion. The crap is old. I just came from the FA thread and tab is doing the same thing.

Different opinions are fine. The rest is childish and ruins discussions.

I feel like I've entered the twilight zone.

No kidding.

I went back to see who brought Sashi into this and in what context. . . smh

I’m proud of u ... its been a few weeks since u stalked Vers ... Good Job ...

Go away Diam. Try posting a football take. I didn't mention anyone's name - but yes, it was. Thanks for verifying.

This discussion which is from 2016 is stupid. You acting like you are on a better side of the stupid discussion is misguided at best. Jumping on my post when I didn't mention anyone ... well apparently you like to comment on every post I make these days. Maybe I need to start with those childish posts about living rent free in your head.

Man there's mucho space here. I love it.

As I stated in a post just before yours, I don’t notify the mods about anything. I don’t narc.

U got me once again ... I’m stalking u .... *LOL* ....

U think this is an argument ... ...

#rentfree.

Always nice to have these in depth discussions with you bro

Forgot - DAAVID DAVID DAVID !

This will be my only post to you, 888, Memphis, Fate, and Rish on this particular subject. I did NOT mention your name one time. You made three posts in the last two days and ALL three were about me.

Go back into the thread and provide evidence where I was calling you out. You can't. I can point to your three posts from today and yesterday that were all about me. That's not the Twilight Zone. It's reality.

So why did you just mention mine? I haven't made a peep since you started your weekly beating of the Sashi horse?? In fact, I'm pretty sure I haven't responded to you in weeks.

Strange how all these imaginary rules work for you. You bring up my name, in a thread I haven't posted in, in a rant about people bringing up others names, while you complain that someone "called you out".

Yes, it truly is the Twilight Zone.

Dude lies constantly.

I never once said I didn't bring up Sashi. Yet, he throws it out there like I did. He does that crap all the time.

I said I never once mentioned device when I was posting earlier in the posts about Mack, Schwartz, and Sashi. I then said that device made 3 posts in the last two days. All 3 were about me.

device comes back w/something like he feels he is in the Twilight Zone. 888 brings up Sashi? WTH does that have to do w/what I said? Absolutely nothing, but that is how those guys "debate."

And I am not going to apologize for bringing up Sashi. When people are discussing why certain players were not retained, it's a logical step to talk about the FO. After all, they were part of the decision making.

Here is the key. They don't like hearing anything negative about Sashi, so they attack the poster if his name is brought up. Yet, they continually slam Hue and even make things up about him. I let all of that go......but sometimes, enough is enough!

I do not lie constantly - but go ahead and make another deceitful post why don't you. I never claimed or impliedthat you didn't mention Sashi - but like your normal straw man stuff you are arguing against stuff that was never said or inferred.

As for "they don't like hearing anything negative about Sashi" - more of your agenda driven nonsense, like when you say posters don't put any blame on Baker for his performance ... which is simply not true.

Same old same old.

Going to go back to trying to ignore the bullcrap posts - but I will say there is ALWAYS one common denominator when posts get off track and people who normally tell others what to post and think and what they should or should not reply to ... In all these altercations and non-football posts and insults about"once upon a time" ....

Occam’s Razor tells indicates where the answer is.

I'm a believer in the common denominator principle.

That's like someone who continuously gets fired from jobs and it's always the boss's fault.

j/c

All too often I log into the site and see 20 new posts on a thread and I think something happened, football-wise.

I imagine at some point I will be conditioned to realize that the odds of that being the reason for a slew of new posts are pretty small.

j/c...Sashi was in over his head as a GM running the team but he did some good.

We had to rebuild and in the past we did half ars rebuilds. got to give him some credit he did a total rebuild. It got us Garret for the D and Baker for the O. It got us a tremendous Cap cache.

We opted for an experienced Football guy in Dorsey.

We all knew it was a dream situation for a GM - Dorsey was not perfect but he did a good job getting the talent here.

Lets hope 3rd time is a charm as we rebuild not total but in system with our new GM Berry and HC Ski. I think Berry in not the same situation that Dorsey was in draft picks and FA opportunities, has done a very good job. How good will be determined. I like his FA moves, they make sense and are good talent. Our draft picks were almost perfect for what we are looking to do. Our first 2 picks are solid. Who knows about the rest as the further you go in the draft the more its a crapshoot.

But it looks like they did their job.

Can't wait to see what Ski brings to the table. Its a difficult year with this Corona beer thing going on.

But because of the foundation that Sashi started theses are Brown's teams with actual talent and a shot to become competitive for years - unlike any team since our comeback in 1999.

jmho

That's an odd comment when people are discussing Sashi. Maybe some people can learn from that.

Yep. Me too.

Regarding Warford, I know That some people have mentioned that the Saints run the Zone blocking scheme. However, isn’t that zone scheme different than the outside zone stretch that Stefanski would be running?

From what I have read, the Saints run a "Hybrid ZBS". I don't really know what that means, but I assume it means it contains elements of "Man" blocking schemes. Maybe one of the X's and O's guys here can expand on that.

Thanks. My understanding is, while the entire zone blocking concept covers blocking an area vs a man, the added elements of the zone stretch that Shanahan, Kubiak, etc run is that its purpose is to center around actually having the line move in a rhythm where pass plays are based on play action, which creates a stretched out pocket (hence the name). This puts added emphasis on having an athletic line and is supposed to open up better throwing lanes for QBs.

My impression of the Saints blocking scheme is that it doesn’t necessarily incorporate the stretching element. I don’t know much about Warford, but perhaps he’s not an ideal fit for the added stretch element. Maybe someone who knows him better might be able to speak on that better.

I'm not positive if this is what the Saints run. I'd have to sit down and closely watch a game. However, I can shed some light on the Hybrid ZBS.

I am going to assume a few things because we have talked about them before, but folks can ask questions if they forgot what we have talked about.

Man/Base/Gap blocking. This is one I'm assuming everyone knows. You want big, strong types who can physically dominate the guy closest to him.

Then, came Zone. The first ZBS's were all about area. They used smaller linemen who were more agile. This is the ZBS that I have referred to when comparing it to a synchronized swim team. All five guys do things together. Their movements are synchronized.

Some teams eventually found ways to exploit the smaller linemen, thus the Hybrid was developed. You try not to get locked into either system because defenses will eventually figure you out. You are primarily running zone, but implement elements of man/gap blocking.

Not sure if that is clear. Let me use a play to maybe help you visualize it. Let's say you are running your RB towards towards the 8 hole. Even numbers mean the play direction go to the right. Odd numbers mean the play the play direction goes left. So, let's keep it simple and leave out formations and all of that other stuff and just use these two numbers. BlahblahblahblahblahRip28. The Rip means the TE is lined up on the right side. The 2 is for your single back. The 8 is the hole, which is just outside the TE. O is over center, 2 between C and RG, etc, etc

Okay......here is what your linemen might do in that particular play. The LT opens up w/his left foot moving back and is area blocking. He is protecting against the back being chased down from behind.

The LG pulls and tries to turn up field once he gets to the 8 hole. However, if a defender crosses his face before he gets to the hole, he has to block him. The center will chip the DT to his right and try and work to the second level, although in some designs the RG does that. But, to keep it simple, the RG and RT work to get to the outside shoulder of the of the defender who might be able to pursue down the line and make the tackle.

Thus, you can see that this simple play has elements of both Man/Gap blocking and Angle Zone.

Not sure if I was clear, but I am always willing to answer questions. If I don't know the answer, I will say so.

Always enjoy reading your intelligent takes 05. Wish you would post more.

I had to draw it on paper, but that was helpful. Thanks Vers. Do you notice a departure in the zone schemes between guys like Kubiak/Shanahan and the one employed by Payton?

I don't know. I never really sat down and tried to designate the differences. I do think Kubiak/Shanny zones were more of the angle zone that came earlier. Not sure how much they evolved, but I would not be surprised if they had because both are super intelligent and forward thinking guys. Payton? I really have no idea. Sorry.


Btw--------smart move drawing it on paper. Visuals are so helpful.

Since most teams are "right-handed" when it comes to the running game, is it fair to say that athleticism, mobility, and agility are more important in your LG than they are in your RG? The reason I ask is because Larry Warford is not known for being especially mobile or athletic but has been named to the Pro Bowl the last 3 years at RG for the Saints, who I *believe* run some form of ZBS.

Yes, as a general rule you want your LG to be the more athletic of the two and the RG to be stronger and more physical. RG is probably the easiest position to fill along the line. In my opinion, it is also the least important. I don't think I would ever want too much money tied up in my RG.

I don't know much about Warford, only what I have read from you guys on here. But, it makes sense why the Saints didn't keep him if was expensive and not the most athletic guy. I do know the Saints had a very, very good OL the last few years.

GC Glad to see its' any topic goes.

Go sign Clay Mathews Jrs namesake, and forget about :having the most cap space: be one of the 3 most consistent things this franchise does.

:Losing
:New Coaches/QB/GM.

After reading this, I'm not sure I still think he'd be a good signing ...

3 reasons why the Saints released Larry Warford

Bob Rose
Sports Illustrated
May 10, 2020

The New Orleans Saints released starting right guard Larry Warford on Friday, bringing his 3-Yr tenure with the team to an end. The move does not surprise most, but the Saints now look to replace a three-year starter on one of the NFL’s top offensive lines. As we all know, professional football is a business though, and one where hard decisions have to be made. Here are the principal reasons the Saints moved on from their Pro Bowl offensive lineman.

PERFORMANCE

Warford went to the Pro Bowl in all three of his seasons with the Saints but we saw a significant drop-off in his performance in 2019. Warford was repeatedly beaten in pass protection, especially by more athletic defensive linemen. That was on display in the biggest game of the 2019 season for the Saints, a first-round playoff loss to the Minnesota Vikings. The Vikings sacked quarterback Drew Brees three times and knocked him down several more in the game. Many of those were from inside pressure, including one that forced a key second half fumble when the Saints were in scoring position during the second half. The entire New Orleans offensive line played poorly, but the interior spots were particularly atrocious.

Warford’s pass blocking deteriorated down the stretch of the year but his run blocking remained stellar at the point of attack. One area he struggled with however was getting outside when asked to pull around the edge or getting to the spot in a timely manner on screen passes, an enormous part of the Saints offense. Warford has never been a top of the line athlete, but his weight and conditioning were both issues with the coaching staff last year.

CESAR RUIZ

Saints Head Coach Sean Payton singled out the interior offensive line as an area that he expected improvement from at the end of last season. New Orleans addressed that when they spent their 1st round draft choice, 24th overall, on Michigan center Cesar Ruiz. The 20-Yr old Ruiz was one of the top interior linemen available and is a terrific technician who adds athleticism and versatility to the offensive line. Either Ruiz or last year’s 2nd round pick Erik McCoy will slide into Warford’s right guard spot with the other to man the center position.

Either McCoy or Ruiz presents an athletic upgrade over Warford at guard, and will allow the New Orleans offense to take better advantage of the gamebreaking abilities of running back Alvin Kamara over the right side. With the recent re-signing of 26-Yr old left guard Andrus Peat, all three of the Saints interior starters are under the age of 27 and under contract through the 2022 season.

SALARY

Warford, who turns 29 in June, was entering the last year of his contract and was to count $12.875 million dollars against the Saints salary cap in 2020, one of the highest salaries on the team. His release creates $5.125 million in dead cap money this season, but will open up $7.75 million dollars of cap space. That extra money may allow the Saints to bring in another free agent, like an extra pass rusher or additional depth at cornerback or receiver.

Larry Warford was a vital contributor to the Saints offensive success over the last three seasons and has already attracted some interest on the free agent market. New Orleans made the tough decision to move on from him, but in the process not only opened up salary cap space but also got younger and more athletic along their offensive line.

https://www.si.com/nfl/saints/news/three-reason-for-larry-warford-release

Given that philosophy, I’m hoping Teller can fit the bill. Let’s not forget that our RT was not good, so it made the RG worse too (I’d assume)

A Sashi homer is a Sashi apologist.
It's someone who thinks Sashi did more good for the franchise than bad
A Sashi homer is someone who felt he didn't get a
Fair shake from ownership

What did I mean by paid off.
Have the Browns been to the playoffs or won
The North post Sashi Brown ?
His moves have amounted to nothing so far
Just another sub .500 finish

What's funny is that when anyone questioned Sashi you were deemed you didn't know
What your talking about.
You got attacked by the Sashi homers and homers in general

He's not a GM any longer for a reason.
He didn't try to win games as a GM.
just look at the QB room he put together

Lover! How the heck you doing? I remember the shocked look on your face when I called you that at a tailgate. Man, that had to be at least 10 years ago. Maybe more like 15.

I agree with Vers, you need to post more when you can find the time.

Glad you are still kicking and hope your dad is doing well.

Sashi left KJ in as good a situation as any GM has ever walked into in regards to cap space and draft picks .... he stunk at drafting and was hit and miss in FA and keeping our own but he left us in great shape in that regard .. there wasn’t much talent and nothing that even resembled an NFL QB but he did leave us with a lot of draft and cap capital ...

Your post was as unfair as the sashiettes sticking up for him for slamming the door in Mitch’s face and doing things like cutting Haden or blaming Hue for everything that went wrong in there 1.5 years together ..

We agree on something at least - though Sashi signed two of the worse FA in the history of the NFL ... so I'd say more miss than hit. The only thing missing was the plan was definitely to gut the team to the core and be bad.

I'm going to try and engage only you on this topic (maybe a few others, but not the same three that negatively permeate this board on the regular) because you are reasonable poster. In your opinion, what were those two worst FA signings in the history of the NFL? Was it simply production after the fact? Dollars equated to production?

Sashi, Depo, & Berry had their mistakes, no doubt. I was just curious.

He signed Tretter and extended Bitino I believe ... hence hits ... those misses were of epic proportions ...

I started a Thank U and Good Bye Sashi thread a week or so after it happened ... i give credit where its due regardless of how one sided it seems ... there’s a reason for that ...

I said then and believe to this day it worked out PERFECT .... we have all these assets and KJ is sitting there and Hue basically gets Sashi fired when approving a trade for AJ McCarron Behind Sashi’s back ... it worked out great as far as i was concerned ... it stunk for Sashi but that qb room we had was an absolute embarrassment ... that should not have been allowed to happen ...

None of it matters anymore .... Andy and Kev CAN is all that counts now ...

We got a shot ... KJ left behind a great foundation and plenty of cap space and I think Andy did a good job signing Conklin and even though we way overpaid for Hooper I like the signing ... IF Bake is even decent and Kev CAN were gonna have a GREAT O .... and were gonna have a good pass rush and we have some good cover corners as long as Woods don’t have his head up his butt like last years moron did ...

LETS GOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo

I don't know all the FA signings in the history of the NFL ... so that was some hyperbole ... but Britt and Bowe both fantastically awful signings.
** (and I think they were both Sashi?)

I’ll leave it alone this time ... u ever do that again and I guarantee your wish won’t be granted ...

Bowe wasn’t Sashi’s I don’t believe ... his 2nd miss of epic proportions was Jamie Collins ...

I believe Bowe was a Farmer signing. Britt was a bad signing for sure. I'm glad that we didn't give him a long-term contract with guaranteed money, though. We've done recently, unfortunately.

It was definitely a miss but not of epic proportions. Collins played well before he was extended and then was bad. Collins then signed back with Patriots and immediately was good again. That speaks more to a player motivation or coaching issue. The talent is/was there.

Kenny Britt was terrible from the start. It was not enough money to be an epic miss.

When I think of epic miss free agent signings I think of Albert Haynesworth with Washington, Brock Osweiler with the Texans, Trumaine Johnson with the Jets, etc.

I'd say draft selections were more detrimental than FA signings by Sashi and Co. Namely, Coleman and Kizer.

Coleman had some injury issues so maybe be bounces back, but I doubt it. So that failed.

Enough has been said about Kizer. Especially recently. The Hue factor, how he was managed, and Hue having a say with the QBs (ex. RG3, Kessler), but Sashi also squashed the McCarron deal.

In the end, Sashi had the final say, outside of Haslam. So the buck stops with him. It's still unfortunate that Hue had more influence than he should have.

This biggest problem with Collins was, after signing that deal, he missed 10 games due to injury the following year. In 2018, he caused four pass defenses, an interception, 1 fumble rec., 104 total tackles, 13 of those tackles were for a loss, and 7 QB hits.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CollJa00.htm

Personally, I do not think that is bad, whatsoever. And then he goes on to NE and does well again. To each their own.

You are a legend. Why do you keep talking about this?

At this point, who cares? Now if you want to get back at it over Timid, that might be fun for maybe 3 posts each.


Naaa….I like it better the way it is, that stuff is 20 years old now.


So are you back in South Carolina or you still running up to Rome, or Watertown, or wherever it was in NY you lived?

I will think of it in a little bit. I have a ton of knowledge in my brain at this point. A lot to sift through......Rochester.


Google running a little slow tonight.

We disagree on Collins ... and he was gifted to us for a reason in the middle of a Pats SB run ... he wanted to do it his way and get paid ... u don’t get a 2nd chance with Bill to often and u never get a 3rd ...

When he went back ... he did it the “Patriots” way ... he’s always had the talent ...

Thanks Vers! You know I bring out the best in people.

In all seriousness, I will make it a point to try and post more. I miss the camaraderie around here.

Hey Peen! It was the home opener, back in ‘07. GM was right next to me laughing his arse off. Man, that was back when I was 24. I’ll try to be around more often. Thanks for asking about my dad. He actually passed, but peacefully. I’d like to think his intercession has kept the Steelers out of the playoffs the past couple years.

That doesn't sound good.

And again, I am not a proponent of paying a RG a lot of money. It's nice to have a great one, but it's not necessary.

Weight and conditioning issues......not cool.

Want to move on and not talk about this stuff - but yes, agree with you on the draft picks.

Hoping Berry's draft class turns out as solid as most think it looks on paper - his FA signings also seem to be smart and help the team also at the moment. All about results not the theory - Browns fans know that more than anyone.

I remember GM being there.


On a serious note, I am always hesitant to ask about folks when you were old enough then, so he was old enough then, and would be even older today....so, my condolences, be it however late. That puts a frown on my face.

I know he was proud of you, so if you can make your parents proud, you should be proud, because it will come back at you some day with your children, but you are now old enough to understand that. You aren't the kid I first started talking to when you were maybe 18 or so. You go back to the original board, so maybe even younger.


Good talking to you Bubba. Go Browns, and when I see a Steeler stumble and fall for no reason, I am going to know it was your Dad who tripped that sucker up!

I agree. I also think Cesar Ruiz is going to be a heck of a player. He didn't fit with our draft position, or maybe even what we wanted or needed, but he is going to be a very good pro player.


So it boils down to a vet with lazy habits and a big contract or a rook who is good on a cheaper contract.



Easy decision.

j/c


2016 Sashi/Hue 1-15
2017 Sashi/Hue 0-16
2018 Dorsey/Hue 2-5-1
2018 Dorsey/Williams 5-3

I'm sorry, but I can't get behind the logic that Sashi was THE problem. When people say look at the record, Sashi was bad...I look at the records and see this. How anyone can deduce that Sashi was the problem over anyone else does not make sense.

Things I believe based on readings, etc... (and I'm not trying to resurrect a debate here, but if anyone has proof or thoughts otherwise I'm all ears)

-Sashi wasn't trying to lose. He knew the team he inherited had extremely little chance of winning. He laid out a plan to make us a bonafide winner within 5 years. This is year 5.

-I don't think Sashi was in over his head. He was young and learning. Schwartz may have been one of those learning blocks. Sashi was actually spot on with Schwartz market value, maybe perhaps even a tad high. I also believe there were conditions discussed prior to Schwartz entering free agency which Schwartz broke, but it came back to bite Sashi in a big way.

-I do think that some GMs around the NFL resented the fact Sashi was a "GM."

-Sashi was acting GM, but was never the GM. We were always supposed to hire a GM per his first press conference in his new job. If this is part of the reason he was let go, we may never know.

-Sashi had final say, yes, but it was 100% Hue who orchestrated the QB room. It was Hue who didn't want McCown any more. It was Hue who decided to go with Kizer to start the season. Kizer was awful in preseason. I will say I was hopeful after his first regular season game. But the kid wasn't ready and Sashi knew it and Hue didn't care.

-Sashi and Hue could no longer coexist. Although Haslam hired Sashi, he also hired Hue. Hue was the supposedly the #1 HC candidate in 2016. Hue was always deemed the prize while with Sashi it was always "how does he have that job?" It was Hue who should have been fired, but it ended up being Sashi instead. (And before the elitist crowd shows up, I'm not saying Sashi was the greatest GM of all time.)

-Dorsey has an excellent eye for talent, but everything else GMing he was awful. He should remain a scout, never a GM.

-Adding talent was inevitable after year 2. That was the plan since day 1. Anyone trying to compare rosters of 2016 to 2018, I'm sorry, but you just don't get it. It might not have been the same talent we have now, but we would have gained talent nonetheless. I also don't doubt that there was a plan to bring in a GM after year 2, which very well could have been Dorsey. Sashi and Dorsey may have coexisted, but we'll never know.

-Not having a good HC in 2019 hurt this team. Sure the team thought it was "going to be easy," but we have hard working players. I, for one, am not worried... but I do like that once again we are seen as the underdog. In a way, it worked out to our benefit because Berry/Stefanski is a far better duo than Dorsey/Freddie. And yes, if I'm rating the duos then Sashi/Hue would be last. As bad as Freddie was, he was no where near as bad as Hue. I hope we never see anyone that bad ever again, for any pro team.

-If we go on to have a great 10-15 years, Sashi will be a large part of why we were able to do so. I don't care what the names on the jerseys are, but we couldn't bring all this talent here and STILL have the most cap space in the league without Sashi's efforts.

-I'm sure there will be MANY who laugh at Sashi and explain how bad he "sucked," but if we turn this around starting this season, Sashi will take great pride in seeing us win knowing that it was his footprint that got us here. He'll know and a few others may know also, but the majority will probably always think he was THE problem.

I'm not sure if you were including yourself in those three or if you're like a skunk. They seem to have trouble smelling their own stench.

Come back after being banned for expressing how this board sucks cause of the few. Thread was still off topic. Then amazingly was back on topic strong with some good posts. Seems to be trending back to crap now

Will be bring someone into camp, to challenge our kicker?

You always bring in someone. Your main guy can't do all the kicking. Same with the punter.

I think we were pretty pleased with our young kickers from last season. All teams bring in extra kickers into training camp to prevent over use ( as was mentioned ) But I don't think anyone is bringing in guys for "Realistic" competition. Even if a guy surprises us unless they lose faith in our young duo - we will stand pat.

jmho