DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Moves Still to be Made

I had to draw it on paper, but that was helpful. Thanks Vers. Do you notice a departure in the zone schemes between guys like Kubiak/Shanahan and the one employed by Payton?

I don't know. I never really sat down and tried to designate the differences. I do think Kubiak/Shanny zones were more of the angle zone that came earlier. Not sure how much they evolved, but I would not be surprised if they had because both are super intelligent and forward thinking guys. Payton? I really have no idea. Sorry.


Btw--------smart move drawing it on paper. Visuals are so helpful.

Since most teams are "right-handed" when it comes to the running game, is it fair to say that athleticism, mobility, and agility are more important in your LG than they are in your RG? The reason I ask is because Larry Warford is not known for being especially mobile or athletic but has been named to the Pro Bowl the last 3 years at RG for the Saints, who I *believe* run some form of ZBS.

Yes, as a general rule you want your LG to be the more athletic of the two and the RG to be stronger and more physical. RG is probably the easiest position to fill along the line. In my opinion, it is also the least important. I don't think I would ever want too much money tied up in my RG.

I don't know much about Warford, only what I have read from you guys on here. But, it makes sense why the Saints didn't keep him if was expensive and not the most athletic guy. I do know the Saints had a very, very good OL the last few years.

GC Glad to see its' any topic goes.

Go sign Clay Mathews Jrs namesake, and forget about :having the most cap space: be one of the 3 most consistent things this franchise does.

:Losing
:New Coaches/QB/GM.

After reading this, I'm not sure I still think he'd be a good signing ...

3 reasons why the Saints released Larry Warford

Bob Rose
Sports Illustrated
May 10, 2020

The New Orleans Saints released starting right guard Larry Warford on Friday, bringing his 3-Yr tenure with the team to an end. The move does not surprise most, but the Saints now look to replace a three-year starter on one of the NFL’s top offensive lines. As we all know, professional football is a business though, and one where hard decisions have to be made. Here are the principal reasons the Saints moved on from their Pro Bowl offensive lineman.

PERFORMANCE

Warford went to the Pro Bowl in all three of his seasons with the Saints but we saw a significant drop-off in his performance in 2019. Warford was repeatedly beaten in pass protection, especially by more athletic defensive linemen. That was on display in the biggest game of the 2019 season for the Saints, a first-round playoff loss to the Minnesota Vikings. The Vikings sacked quarterback Drew Brees three times and knocked him down several more in the game. Many of those were from inside pressure, including one that forced a key second half fumble when the Saints were in scoring position during the second half. The entire New Orleans offensive line played poorly, but the interior spots were particularly atrocious.

Warford’s pass blocking deteriorated down the stretch of the year but his run blocking remained stellar at the point of attack. One area he struggled with however was getting outside when asked to pull around the edge or getting to the spot in a timely manner on screen passes, an enormous part of the Saints offense. Warford has never been a top of the line athlete, but his weight and conditioning were both issues with the coaching staff last year.

CESAR RUIZ

Saints Head Coach Sean Payton singled out the interior offensive line as an area that he expected improvement from at the end of last season. New Orleans addressed that when they spent their 1st round draft choice, 24th overall, on Michigan center Cesar Ruiz. The 20-Yr old Ruiz was one of the top interior linemen available and is a terrific technician who adds athleticism and versatility to the offensive line. Either Ruiz or last year’s 2nd round pick Erik McCoy will slide into Warford’s right guard spot with the other to man the center position.

Either McCoy or Ruiz presents an athletic upgrade over Warford at guard, and will allow the New Orleans offense to take better advantage of the gamebreaking abilities of running back Alvin Kamara over the right side. With the recent re-signing of 26-Yr old left guard Andrus Peat, all three of the Saints interior starters are under the age of 27 and under contract through the 2022 season.

SALARY

Warford, who turns 29 in June, was entering the last year of his contract and was to count $12.875 million dollars against the Saints salary cap in 2020, one of the highest salaries on the team. His release creates $5.125 million in dead cap money this season, but will open up $7.75 million dollars of cap space. That extra money may allow the Saints to bring in another free agent, like an extra pass rusher or additional depth at cornerback or receiver.

Larry Warford was a vital contributor to the Saints offensive success over the last three seasons and has already attracted some interest on the free agent market. New Orleans made the tough decision to move on from him, but in the process not only opened up salary cap space but also got younger and more athletic along their offensive line.

https://www.si.com/nfl/saints/news/three-reason-for-larry-warford-release

Given that philosophy, I’m hoping Teller can fit the bill. Let’s not forget that our RT was not good, so it made the RG worse too (I’d assume)

A Sashi homer is a Sashi apologist.
It's someone who thinks Sashi did more good for the franchise than bad
A Sashi homer is someone who felt he didn't get a
Fair shake from ownership

What did I mean by paid off.
Have the Browns been to the playoffs or won
The North post Sashi Brown ?
His moves have amounted to nothing so far
Just another sub .500 finish

What's funny is that when anyone questioned Sashi you were deemed you didn't know
What your talking about.
You got attacked by the Sashi homers and homers in general

He's not a GM any longer for a reason.
He didn't try to win games as a GM.
just look at the QB room he put together

Lover! How the heck you doing? I remember the shocked look on your face when I called you that at a tailgate. Man, that had to be at least 10 years ago. Maybe more like 15.

I agree with Vers, you need to post more when you can find the time.

Glad you are still kicking and hope your dad is doing well.

Sashi left KJ in as good a situation as any GM has ever walked into in regards to cap space and draft picks .... he stunk at drafting and was hit and miss in FA and keeping our own but he left us in great shape in that regard .. there wasn’t much talent and nothing that even resembled an NFL QB but he did leave us with a lot of draft and cap capital ...

Your post was as unfair as the sashiettes sticking up for him for slamming the door in Mitch’s face and doing things like cutting Haden or blaming Hue for everything that went wrong in there 1.5 years together ..

We agree on something at least - though Sashi signed two of the worse FA in the history of the NFL ... so I'd say more miss than hit. The only thing missing was the plan was definitely to gut the team to the core and be bad.

I'm going to try and engage only you on this topic (maybe a few others, but not the same three that negatively permeate this board on the regular) because you are reasonable poster. In your opinion, what were those two worst FA signings in the history of the NFL? Was it simply production after the fact? Dollars equated to production?

Sashi, Depo, & Berry had their mistakes, no doubt. I was just curious.

He signed Tretter and extended Bitino I believe ... hence hits ... those misses were of epic proportions ...

I started a Thank U and Good Bye Sashi thread a week or so after it happened ... i give credit where its due regardless of how one sided it seems ... there’s a reason for that ...

I said then and believe to this day it worked out PERFECT .... we have all these assets and KJ is sitting there and Hue basically gets Sashi fired when approving a trade for AJ McCarron Behind Sashi’s back ... it worked out great as far as i was concerned ... it stunk for Sashi but that qb room we had was an absolute embarrassment ... that should not have been allowed to happen ...

None of it matters anymore .... Andy and Kev CAN is all that counts now ...

We got a shot ... KJ left behind a great foundation and plenty of cap space and I think Andy did a good job signing Conklin and even though we way overpaid for Hooper I like the signing ... IF Bake is even decent and Kev CAN were gonna have a GREAT O .... and were gonna have a good pass rush and we have some good cover corners as long as Woods don’t have his head up his butt like last years moron did ...

LETS GOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo

I don't know all the FA signings in the history of the NFL ... so that was some hyperbole ... but Britt and Bowe both fantastically awful signings.
** (and I think they were both Sashi?)

I’ll leave it alone this time ... u ever do that again and I guarantee your wish won’t be granted ...

Bowe wasn’t Sashi’s I don’t believe ... his 2nd miss of epic proportions was Jamie Collins ...

I believe Bowe was a Farmer signing. Britt was a bad signing for sure. I'm glad that we didn't give him a long-term contract with guaranteed money, though. We've done recently, unfortunately.

It was definitely a miss but not of epic proportions. Collins played well before he was extended and then was bad. Collins then signed back with Patriots and immediately was good again. That speaks more to a player motivation or coaching issue. The talent is/was there.

Kenny Britt was terrible from the start. It was not enough money to be an epic miss.

When I think of epic miss free agent signings I think of Albert Haynesworth with Washington, Brock Osweiler with the Texans, Trumaine Johnson with the Jets, etc.

I'd say draft selections were more detrimental than FA signings by Sashi and Co. Namely, Coleman and Kizer.

Coleman had some injury issues so maybe be bounces back, but I doubt it. So that failed.

Enough has been said about Kizer. Especially recently. The Hue factor, how he was managed, and Hue having a say with the QBs (ex. RG3, Kessler), but Sashi also squashed the McCarron deal.

In the end, Sashi had the final say, outside of Haslam. So the buck stops with him. It's still unfortunate that Hue had more influence than he should have.

This biggest problem with Collins was, after signing that deal, he missed 10 games due to injury the following year. In 2018, he caused four pass defenses, an interception, 1 fumble rec., 104 total tackles, 13 of those tackles were for a loss, and 7 QB hits.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CollJa00.htm

Personally, I do not think that is bad, whatsoever. And then he goes on to NE and does well again. To each their own.

You are a legend. Why do you keep talking about this?

At this point, who cares? Now if you want to get back at it over Timid, that might be fun for maybe 3 posts each.


Naaa….I like it better the way it is, that stuff is 20 years old now.


So are you back in South Carolina or you still running up to Rome, or Watertown, or wherever it was in NY you lived?

I will think of it in a little bit. I have a ton of knowledge in my brain at this point. A lot to sift through......Rochester.


Google running a little slow tonight.

We disagree on Collins ... and he was gifted to us for a reason in the middle of a Pats SB run ... he wanted to do it his way and get paid ... u don’t get a 2nd chance with Bill to often and u never get a 3rd ...

When he went back ... he did it the “Patriots” way ... he’s always had the talent ...

Thanks Vers! You know I bring out the best in people.

In all seriousness, I will make it a point to try and post more. I miss the camaraderie around here.

Hey Peen! It was the home opener, back in ‘07. GM was right next to me laughing his arse off. Man, that was back when I was 24. I’ll try to be around more often. Thanks for asking about my dad. He actually passed, but peacefully. I’d like to think his intercession has kept the Steelers out of the playoffs the past couple years.

That doesn't sound good.

And again, I am not a proponent of paying a RG a lot of money. It's nice to have a great one, but it's not necessary.

Weight and conditioning issues......not cool.

Want to move on and not talk about this stuff - but yes, agree with you on the draft picks.

Hoping Berry's draft class turns out as solid as most think it looks on paper - his FA signings also seem to be smart and help the team also at the moment. All about results not the theory - Browns fans know that more than anyone.

I remember GM being there.


On a serious note, I am always hesitant to ask about folks when you were old enough then, so he was old enough then, and would be even older today....so, my condolences, be it however late. That puts a frown on my face.

I know he was proud of you, so if you can make your parents proud, you should be proud, because it will come back at you some day with your children, but you are now old enough to understand that. You aren't the kid I first started talking to when you were maybe 18 or so. You go back to the original board, so maybe even younger.


Good talking to you Bubba. Go Browns, and when I see a Steeler stumble and fall for no reason, I am going to know it was your Dad who tripped that sucker up!

I agree. I also think Cesar Ruiz is going to be a heck of a player. He didn't fit with our draft position, or maybe even what we wanted or needed, but he is going to be a very good pro player.


So it boils down to a vet with lazy habits and a big contract or a rook who is good on a cheaper contract.



Easy decision.

j/c


2016 Sashi/Hue 1-15
2017 Sashi/Hue 0-16
2018 Dorsey/Hue 2-5-1
2018 Dorsey/Williams 5-3

I'm sorry, but I can't get behind the logic that Sashi was THE problem. When people say look at the record, Sashi was bad...I look at the records and see this. How anyone can deduce that Sashi was the problem over anyone else does not make sense.

Things I believe based on readings, etc... (and I'm not trying to resurrect a debate here, but if anyone has proof or thoughts otherwise I'm all ears)

-Sashi wasn't trying to lose. He knew the team he inherited had extremely little chance of winning. He laid out a plan to make us a bonafide winner within 5 years. This is year 5.

-I don't think Sashi was in over his head. He was young and learning. Schwartz may have been one of those learning blocks. Sashi was actually spot on with Schwartz market value, maybe perhaps even a tad high. I also believe there were conditions discussed prior to Schwartz entering free agency which Schwartz broke, but it came back to bite Sashi in a big way.

-I do think that some GMs around the NFL resented the fact Sashi was a "GM."

-Sashi was acting GM, but was never the GM. We were always supposed to hire a GM per his first press conference in his new job. If this is part of the reason he was let go, we may never know.

-Sashi had final say, yes, but it was 100% Hue who orchestrated the QB room. It was Hue who didn't want McCown any more. It was Hue who decided to go with Kizer to start the season. Kizer was awful in preseason. I will say I was hopeful after his first regular season game. But the kid wasn't ready and Sashi knew it and Hue didn't care.

-Sashi and Hue could no longer coexist. Although Haslam hired Sashi, he also hired Hue. Hue was the supposedly the #1 HC candidate in 2016. Hue was always deemed the prize while with Sashi it was always "how does he have that job?" It was Hue who should have been fired, but it ended up being Sashi instead. (And before the elitist crowd shows up, I'm not saying Sashi was the greatest GM of all time.)

-Dorsey has an excellent eye for talent, but everything else GMing he was awful. He should remain a scout, never a GM.

-Adding talent was inevitable after year 2. That was the plan since day 1. Anyone trying to compare rosters of 2016 to 2018, I'm sorry, but you just don't get it. It might not have been the same talent we have now, but we would have gained talent nonetheless. I also don't doubt that there was a plan to bring in a GM after year 2, which very well could have been Dorsey. Sashi and Dorsey may have coexisted, but we'll never know.

-Not having a good HC in 2019 hurt this team. Sure the team thought it was "going to be easy," but we have hard working players. I, for one, am not worried... but I do like that once again we are seen as the underdog. In a way, it worked out to our benefit because Berry/Stefanski is a far better duo than Dorsey/Freddie. And yes, if I'm rating the duos then Sashi/Hue would be last. As bad as Freddie was, he was no where near as bad as Hue. I hope we never see anyone that bad ever again, for any pro team.

-If we go on to have a great 10-15 years, Sashi will be a large part of why we were able to do so. I don't care what the names on the jerseys are, but we couldn't bring all this talent here and STILL have the most cap space in the league without Sashi's efforts.

-I'm sure there will be MANY who laugh at Sashi and explain how bad he "sucked," but if we turn this around starting this season, Sashi will take great pride in seeing us win knowing that it was his footprint that got us here. He'll know and a few others may know also, but the majority will probably always think he was THE problem.

I'm not sure if you were including yourself in those three or if you're like a skunk. They seem to have trouble smelling their own stench.

Come back after being banned for expressing how this board sucks cause of the few. Thread was still off topic. Then amazingly was back on topic strong with some good posts. Seems to be trending back to crap now

Will be bring someone into camp, to challenge our kicker?

You always bring in someone. Your main guy can't do all the kicking. Same with the punter.