I don't know Haslam. All I know is his tenure with the Browns. I never worked for him. I don't know a thing about his business and all that went on when it was busted.

It was however an indication of what he allowed to happen.

As a NFL team owner his record is a failure until Baker came to the Browns.

So, now weeks ago Stefanski and Berry are emphatic "Baker is our quarterback."

Enter Haslam. We are going to make an offer for Watson. Dee Haslam is a visible representative of the organization. They supported Kareem Hunt.
Got him back into the NFL and provided the net around him.

This is different. Hunt did something wrong toward a woman one time that we know of. He is not a repeat offender as far as we know.

I did not hear the testmony of witnesses or the presentation of evidence. I was not behind the closed doors of the Grand jury.

Nor have I sat across from Watson looked into his eyes and asked him questions.

So, I do not know the truth.

Atlanta, Carolina, New Orleans, NY Jets, or any other team who has made an offer. They also had to reach a conclusion.

However this turns out this is Haslam's move. He should be judged because he is the one who is making a statement of approval.

He's a dumb ass!!

Supposedly, one of the 22 accusations vs Watson came AFTER the first ones came to light. It was in one of the links I put in the Watson thread. Ugh...

That said, Dee has been taking the more active role in the Browns over the past few years. Our FO and coach have established an MO of being shrewd and really smart in acquiring talent, as well as sticking to their guns.

It's really hard to keep away from the edge of the bridge, but I'll wait until more info comes out. We're losing our minds over very little actual info.

If people believe this is a Haslem move, then the Browns are doing their job perfectly steering the fans' mindset into believing this is a Jimmy decision as the villain who trumped the FO into trying to get Watson as opposed to this FO wanting to move on from Baker and get a proven franchise QB.

If you think for a moment that Haslam did not sign off on this.

Then check who was on the flight to Houston.

With all that is involved in this Haslam has to sign off.

If Watson is signed. Who has to face the press? Who has to sell Watson to the community?

Who has to insure the season ticket holders why the organization supports the move?

So, are you saying Berry has the authority to do this on his own?

Has there ever been a situation where the Browns FO executed a trade and/or FA signing decision where ownership didn't sign off? That's the barrier of entry with these transactions. Of course ownership has signed off on this.

But you can already see the narrative begin to switch to this was a Haslem move and something the FO might not have wanted. If one believes this, the PR team is doing their job perfectly.

Yep. Let Haslam be the bad guy and shield Berry and Stefanski.

“No uncoordinated leaks.”

No, all owners have the seal of approval. It's stupid to think they don't. I don't think this was an idea birthed by the Haslams. It probably came up as general discussion by all parties.

Oh, Berry & Depo & Stefanski would deserve heat, too. Those first two, it's their job to tell Haslam he's being stupid when he's being stupid. So, no heat comes off them at all.

In either case, with the lawyer "coincidence", this thing feels VERY orchestrated going way back.

If the Browns trade for Watson, you'd have to assume a press conference would happen in short order. I'm of the belief, even if they don't pull it off, they might want to come to the podium regardless and give their explanation & side of the story in pursuing him.

I blame fan naivety for actually taking them at face value. What else were they going to say at the time?

This is not the first time a team moved on from a QB after "emphatically" saying their QB is their guy.

There are no mysteries here.

Baker was not signed to an extension. If it was believed that he was the franchise quarterback that would have happened.

So, everyone knew the Browns were looking for alternatives.

Baker knows this season nothing changes no matter where he plays. He has to play his best football.

Nobody will question a team looking to improve performance at quarterback. That is not in question.

What is the question is Watson? The Rooney family got out in front. Not interested.

Haslam approached by Berry, Depo and maybe Stafanski asked to investigate this opportunity. This has been in the works for a long time.

Haslam made the decision. I am not passing ethical judgement. Simply stating the process.

However, this turns out all those involved share the responsibility.

Wow , that hit me like a ton of bricks . So in America today you can't take a man's word ! And if you do , it's your fault . I know I just really simplified the situation , but that's the bottom line.

I'd pull a Costanza and just show back up to work and act like nothing happened.

plot twist: Dee is the one who will answer questions at the press conference.

When they were asked, Baker was the team's QB. They never promised that he would be the QB in the future.

They've always said that they are always looking to improve, everywhere.

As in any sport, you are the man, until you're not.

Bull I'm 74 years old , been a Browns fanatic since birth ( It seems like ). I also seem to be slow to the party . I will never believe anything coming out of Breea . Not that they give a sh-- about me or the Fan base . lol

I think this is as much to do with Stefanski as is does with slime ball Haslam's. Feel like Berry got himself caught in the Middle.

I can agree with it being a problem that has festered between Stefanski and Baker. Things looked strained last season. It looks like a one of the two needs to go and the decision is behind the coach.

Just the way I see it.

Interesting in that this may be generational.

The more the Browns said Baker was definitely their starter next season the more I actually felt he would not be.

It's like when an owner of a team publicly gives a coach a vote of confidence, that is usually the kiss of death for said coach.

If a team feels the need to come out multiple times to say someone if their guy, he's probably not their guy.

It's not even naivety. AB has been clear they will improve any/all position if possible. There are no sacred cows on this roster... he's made that crystal clear.

Someone also made a really great point. I'm a Baker fan, but this is true. There are VERY few QBs in the league that have established themselves to the point where their teams would be in the wrong in trying to improve on the QB position. Baker is not one of those QBs.

I get all that, but I can't help but look at this offseason thus far and feel that this organization has gone schizo compared to what they've done over the past few years.
The point that someone else made regarding all the talk about building and establishing a new culture, and now we seem to be reverting right back to what we were... that's exactly what it feels like to me.

I'm holding out hope that an elaborate plan is merely unfolding and we have yet to find out about it. I dunno, man. Not much is making sense right now so I'm holding out for more info before I run to the edge of hte bridge.

I'm starting to feel like the org is being ran by Sybil

The difference between a player friendly and honest organization and Cleveland Browns is that most successful GMs/HCs don't have to lie or even behave shady to get their message thru. You know that little detail with having honest intentions and be straight forward. Treat your players well and you will be rewarded and the opposite. I know that old fashion pre millennium stuff is not popular today but with some successful organizations it seems to work.

I had high hopes when we appointed Berry and Stefanski. Silly me. Two bought corporate guys with zero integrity.

Literally every GM and coach lie. All of them. Every time they are in front of the media.

No!

I want my picks back, and I want David god damn Putney, just because I feel like it.

If the Browns sign a sexual predator then they ALL are the bad guys and ALL are to blame.

Ugh... yeah, pretty much.

While that's certainly true, as we have witnessed, depending on the individual he may totally ignore any advice he is given and follow the preconceived notions in his head. The man who signs the checks has the final say.

Jimmy Haslam did NOT learn from the mistakes that Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder made. Just shut up and sign the checks Jimmy. Wealth does not equal intelligence in the NFL. The sadness continues.

Defiantly Generational !.. I really have a hard time understanding half the stuff that goes on , and is executable in our culture today.. It ain't easy being an old , old time American. lol

On the same page with ya. Feels like we are going backwards right now.

JC....


...all I can say to some of you...WOW, LOOK AT YOU NOW..!

Browns are the epitome of hypocrisy with pursuit of Texans' Deshaun Watson | Opinion

Marla Ridenour Akron Beacon Journal
link

Cleveland Browns co-owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam are considering selling their souls for a Super Bowl.

In exploring a trade for the Houston Texans’ Deshaun Watson by meeting with the quarterback on Tuesday, the Browns are making the franchise the NFL epitome of hypocrisy.

Not that they are alone.

Watson is subject to a league suspension and facing 22 civil suits from massage therapists alleging sexual misconduct or sexual assault. That goes against everything the Browns have tried to build under general manager Andrew Berry and coach Kevin Stefanski.

The Browns have espoused diversity, inclusion, character and accountability. They have emphasized education.

Apparently educating men on the respectful treatment of women is not part of the curriculum.

It's possible Watson will be absolved as innocent. The civil suits may prove fruitless.

But at the moment, the Browns look prepared to make Watson a football hero like every other Cleveland quarterback and punt on what looks like his flawed character, believing like so many others in the NFL they can fix him.

They move forward in their pursuit of Watson even though since the allegations surfaced he has publicly shown no hint of accountability.

Should they like what they hear from Watson, the Browns must still persuade him to waive his no-trade clause. They then would have to mortgage their future, with the Texans’ asking price currently three first-round picks and additional assets. They would have to trade quarterback Baker Mayfield, perhaps even without assurances that the NFL will not suspend Watson for all or part of 2022.

I am on record as saying the Browns should have selected Clemson’s Watson with the No. 1 overall pick in 2017. I overlooked his 32 career interceptions because of his dedication. At his interview before Clemson’s 2016 BCS semifinal game against Ohio State, I was impressed that he graduated in three years, taking 19 hours in the fall of 2015 during the Tigers' run to the championship game. I thought that was an indication of the work ethic required at the professional level.

I believe in second chances. But I have to side with 22 women now — even if the Browns won’t.

Watson escaped criminal charges last week, but 22 women didn’t collude and come up with the same story.

In 2017, then-EVP of football operations Sashi Brown chose defensive end Myles Garrett with the first overall pick and traded the Browns’ second first-rounder, 12th overall, to the Texans for two firsts. That enabled the Texans to grab Watson.

With the picks received from the Texans, the Browns selected safety Jabrill Peppers, later traded to the New York Giants in the Odell Beckham Jr. deal, and cornerback Denzel Ward, taken fourth overall in 2018. Brown’s successor, former general manager John Dorsey, grabbed Mayfield first overall in 2018.

Perhaps there were questions about Watson in 2017. Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta joined the Browns in January 2016 and was part of the pre-draft process. So, too, was Berry, then vice president of player personnel.

But the Browns find themselves stuck in the netherworld now. Good enough not to pick in the top 10, average enough that their franchise quarterback is not coming through the draft, barring another shot-in-the-dark Tom Brady-like miracle

Last season, Mayfield tried to play through a torn labrum in his left, non-throwing shoulder suffered in Week 2 and it backfired. With his poor performance, he looked nothing like the leader who took the Browns to their first playoff game in 18 years in 2020 and helped record the first postseason victory since Jan. 1, 1995.

Mayfield looked more like he was ready to join the parade of backup-at-best quarterbacks the Browns have selected over the years than a player worth a blockbuster contract extension.

That said, Watson has a 28-25 regular-season record as a starter in his four seasons. Mayfield is 29-30. Watson, only one inch taller than Mayfield, is an upgrade in terms of his arm and physical skills.

Pursuing Watson makes sense only on a football level. Until he's cleared of wrongdoing, he doesn't look like the kind of leader long-suffering Browns fans deserve, at least those who aren’t willing to look the other way.

During Super Bowl week, the Browns received the inaugural "John B. Wooten Award," given by the Fritz Pollard Alliance to NFL teams that embody workplace diversity, equity, and inclusion.

The Browns seemingly put those values above all else, pushing for opportunities for minorities and women. But in meeting with Watson with no certainty of where the civil suits will lead, the Haslams are showing what they value most — the financial windfall of a possible Super Bowl run.

Marla Ridenour can be reached at mridenour@thebeaconjournal.com. Read more about the Browns at www.beaconjournal.com/browns. Follow her on Twitter at www.twitter.com/MRidenourABJ.

"Tough, Smart, and Accountable" aren't guardrails... they're a load of marketing trash. Good quotables for the GM.

They must know something about the legal stuff that the public doesn't. That's the only reason I can see for them going in like this on DW.

This is gold. I'm in my office!

This front office strategy is eerily similar to what Putin did in the Ukraine. Fail. Compare our FO to Putin. We had a plan that we thought was foolproof, and felt that we would just swoop in and take Watson. We were too arrogant and full of ourselves to consider that the population would actually see it for what it is and rail against the plan. Then we go in and fail miserably, because the plan had faults from the get go due to miscalculating and poor planning. Meanwhile, we alienate the one person that could help the team going forward to the point that he demands a trade.

Haslam is a successful business billionaire.

Berry, Depo, Stefanski highly educated intelligent guys. I don't understand how they planned this?

They hired security and had been investigating Watson for a year. They have had four years of experience with Baker. They have to know him.

When the 2021 season ended the normal procedure is to look back at what went wrong? The goals were not achieved. You review and develop plans to correct the failure.

A couple weeks after the season why did they not get out in front of this. Call Baker in and tell him they are going to look around.

They should have known that given Watson and the Texans. Their chances to have the Texans trade within the conference and Watson to agree to come to Cleveland while looking at other warm weather teams (they knew Carolina was all in) (they knew the Saints could be a player) That they were a dark horse at best.

Before they prepared an offer. They should have had Baker under control. Then someone leaks out to Chris Mortenson "they want an adult."
For crying out loud have control of your organization.

What is wrong with these people? Now they are in a twitter war with Baker? Really?

Baker needs to know. It is a privilage to be a starter in the NFL. But if your results are not at a pro bowl level. The team will look to upgrade. Life in the NFL. Hello. Baker you are not helping your value to another team by going public about how you feel.

This was poorly planned and executed worse.

I don't think he is, he makes a hell of a lot more money then us. He also wants to have a winning organization ,so everyone will be happy.


The Rooneys do it, so do other high caliber franchises.

damn ya all don't know [censored] but to complain.

The Browns haven't won a SB why ?

why don't you all just chill !


LMAO.. ya don't know [censored] !

Not sure what sports are more full of, overpaid athletes, owners who fans say are stupid or just the fan who thinks they are smarter then the ones who own coach and play the game !

I've seen some pretty ridiculous intro arguments in my time here but this one might be near the top.

Not a big fan of the comparison.

There's also a case for teams figuring out Baker, and Baker being unwilling or unable to adapt. Keep Baker in the pocket with your DL's hands up and his accuracy (and ability to see wide open receivers) disappears. Throw in locker room friction and we're once again looking at QB purgatory with or without Mayfield. Watson was a Hail Mary (or whatever the unholy version is) with no other apparent option for going into the season with an above average QB.

Yes, Baker is "average," but it took the Steelers' imploding for him to win a playoff game.

We'll probably trade down for a future first and have to hope that that team is awful if we're going to find a long term QB.

Baker was better than what we were used to, but the goal is better than that. He wasn't good enough for the FO to want to put up with the Aaron Rodgers act.

You bring up the Steelers which is the Rooney family.

They had Ben there for a full career. He retires. They are in the market for a quarterback.

What did they do? Tomlin says they are going to embrace the process of looking for a new quarterback.

They announce no interest in Watson. End of the Watson story.

They look at the draft prospects. They decide to sign Trubisky to a two year deal. A former Cleveland kid and second pick in the draft. Who was traded to the Bills. Still a young guy who never had a chance with Chicago. Bills rave about his character. Trubisky says I appreciate the chance to prove myself again with coach Tomlin and the Steeler organization.

How did Haslam and the Browns play their hand? Apparently they were ready to move on from Baker. How did they handle it?

By getting into a twitter war with Baker. Losing out on Watson with all his baggage knowing they had to be the underdog to land him.

And now what their options? Second hand quarterbacks who they don't know who they can get.

So if you like Haslam and what he has done please show me something he has done to win?

It’s about a rotten culture.

Ending up in a chaos like this isn’t because some player are immature or someone says or do the wrong thing. It’s a pattern with lack of trust and those who don’t want to see it will never understand the importance of having a healthy and player friendly culture.

It’s simple and you can even read it in the Bible, Luke 6:31. Treat others the same way you want them to treat you.

Players, you and me are humans. Being treated with respect is important if someone demand the best from us. Having and keeping our pride is a factor who’s part of respect. I think everyone understands that we can’t always get the total truth but at the same time we don’t expect lies or mind games from those close to us. A organization built on respect and trust will be rewarded of those connected to them.

Companies who treat their customers with respect gets loyalty. Government who’s it fair and act with honesty and straight forward will sooner or later be rewarded with votes. It’s not rocket science.

I don’t care how the Browns FO try to spin the media circus of this drama because the important thing isn’t who’s right or wrong, it’s how it’s end.

Right now everyone and this drama is losers and it hasn’t reflect good on this organization. The Browns reputation has reach a new low again. For that the owners, Berry and Stefanski has to take the majority of blame, They had most of the power and they misused it and didn’t care about the short or long term consequences.

Chubb Hunt Clowney Garret Ward

We paid more money to players last year than any other team.

Well we all know you can be a billionaire Businessman and be a complete idiot who does everything wrong.

" Berry, Depo, Stefanski highly educated " Not always translate into intelligent guys. And throwing money at a ton money at a situation is not always the answer.

Haslam does not make those types of decisions.

But as I said in another thread, we aren't happy to stand pat as other teams improve. I don't think many would question that Watson is a better QB than Baker. Any displeasure in going after Watson wasn't his ability, it was any potential baggage that might come with him.

The goal here wasn't to throw money around. It was to vastly improve the QB play. If we ever get to a point where we don't seek to improve because it might pucker the butt of some player on our team, we need a new owner and front office group.

Looking for upgrades at any position is not the issue. How you do it is the issue. If the Browns felt like they needed to move on from Baker, then man up and tell the man. Making a major play for Watson and losing out is part of the game. Telling your current starting QB that we lost out so were settling with you until something else better comes along is not going to help build the relationship. Putting together a trade package that had to be accepted by Houston before you were allowed to speak to Watson for approval is not investigating an upgrade, the Browns were ready to replace Mayfield. The Browns and fans for that part, are not appreciative of what Baker has done or what he's endured to get to this point. I'm ok with that, but crying foul now because the guy wants out from a situation where it's quite evident he's not wanted is quite hypocritical. There was no less than 10 teams looking to upgrade at QB this season. Now that scraps are left the Browns want to commit to Mayfield - unless?

There's more at play here than just ridding themselves of the Baker Mayfield. Why didn't a Wilson want to come to Cleveland? Why didn't Watson want to come here? If Jimmy G is such a hot commodity, why hasn't there been any offers to trade for him? Why are the Browns refusing Baker's request after they've shown the entire NFL that they don't want him? Why do you think that there's no top tier free agent WR, DT, DE, or LB looking at Cleveland as a landing spot?

Out of the top 70 FA's available - the Browns have signed zero players. Seven of those players were WR and only OBJ, Patterson, Valdes-Scantling, and Smith-Schuster are left as possible upgrades for Landry. At DT, four of those guys were in the top 75 and only 32-year old Hicks remains to upgrade at the DT position that was extremely weak in 2021. DE/Edge - nine players were available in the top 70 FA's and only three are still available - Clowney, Barnett, and Ingram. 20 of the top 70 Free Agents available and the Browns get zero thus far. If the Browns are always looking to upgrade every position, when is it going to happen because with 6-7 open starting positions they have only addressed 1. The likelyhood of getting upgrades at those positions now is very slim.

They did.

Yes it was reported that they told him at the Combine.

What is unknown is who told him and what was said?

It was apparently not done correctly. He is an employee.

You explain your intentions and why. Then you tell him how he is expected to handle it and why. The why is for his own benefit.

If that took place. Then his reaction to request a trade is all on him and refelcts his poor judgement.

I'm afraid I wasn't clear in my last post regarding money . I was referring to posters who talk about the amount of $$ that Haslam spends on player Aqisitions , IE payroll . Haslam is not cheap , just an owner meddler and a lousy Football decision maker.

j/c

People still defending an incompetent owner and blaming the one he crapped on. People claiming you should believe one PR statement from the FO while you shouldn't believe the other one.

People blaming the player because he's a "millionaire" while making excuses for a billionaire. It appears they don't think Baker's a grown up. I'm sure that would be an endearing thing for any player to embrace.

They created this entire situation. Maybe it's time you expect the same accountability on the part of a billionaire owner as you do Baker. Nah, that will never happen.

What a bunch of crybabies this board has become. Not a word about Haslam since Berry was hired and the team started doing good. Now they try to sign a legitimate franchise QB, and they are numbskulls. I love that nobody believes reports that they told Baker and his agents, yet Baker has never said they didn't. The situation was "created", because the QB stunk the place up. Yes he was hurt, and yes I do think it had a lot to do with it, but him being unable to read defenses had nothing to do with his injury. The fans want a super bowl, but bash the FO for trying to sign players that could make it happen. If you want a superbowl team, you got to try any means to get the players for it. I'm sure when Baker didn't get an extension, he was aware of where he stood with the organization. As it stands now, he is the starting QB still. He has two choices, play well and get either an extension, or tell the Browns to pound salt. Or play the woe is me victim who had his feelings hurt, and show no desire to use the situation to get where he wants to go. Haslam owns the team, therefore, it is HIS team, not ours. We are fans of the team, but beyond that what we say doesn't matter in the end. For all the people belittling Haslam and bashing the FO, there is no reason for you to keep following this team. If it sucks so bad, move on to one of the teams you feel are being run properly, and believes in your moral code. I'm sticking with the team I have cheered for, for close to 60 years. I could care less who got their feelings hurt, this is a business employing professional athletes. If these athletes don't know how it works by now, I ain't feeling sorry for them.

This.

You mean a QB who told his team he wanted to be traded because he didn't get to help pick his new HC? Sounds like you're the one who advocated being a crybaby on board.

Yes, it is a business, one where reputation and public image mean a lot amongst potential employees(players). This looks like a a disorganized franchise, which is going to make potential FAs shy away or ask for more to put up with it, if they have other choices available.

All will be forgiven if they come out and win, but I find it hard to believe this doesn't set them back a year or more now.

Mistakes made on all sides.

We will never win a SB with Haslam calling the shots like he does. He is an idiot.

But he is willing to spend money, and now he has a QB.

As long as we're winning, he shouldn't feel the need to step in.

We've had worse owners.

He is a Daniel Snyder wannabe.

Haslam just went all in on Watson.

Watson gives the Browns a five year shot at winning the Super Bowl.

People will question the complete price. How people view it will be up to each individual.

For the next five years we will get to know Deshaun Watson. This will be Haslam's legacy.

We need LOT more than Watson to win a SB. Need major upgrades on the DL, LB , Special Teams and who knows what else.

[quote=bonefish]Haslam just went all in on Watson.

Watson gives the Browns a five year shot at winning the Super Bowl.

People will question the complete price. How people view it will be up to each individual.

For the next five years we will get to know Deshaun Watson. This will be Haslam's legacy.[/quote

Haslam, Berry, Stefanski, and the team had to make this move. They had be aggressive. The Browns have not won a Division Title since 1989. Not hosted a home playoff game since 1993. Never been to a Super Bowl. It is time for this team to win. Time to change who they are They have long been seen as a ugly step child to the Steelrs and Ravens, Heck, the Bengals were about to pass them by and join the normal top teams in the division. They are no longer the lovable losers. They now have a winning attitude and it starts when the FO gets aggressive and makes bold moves to vault the team to top contender.

Just had to quote this so the picture shows up in the thread again. If I could I'd have this as my signature.

Nah…. I would love to get the Baby Trump balloon to a Cleveland home game.

The Browns are a legit contender for a Super Bowl.

We have linebackers in JOK, Walker, Taki, Phillips.

We have Myles. We may still sign Clowney. We have plenty of draft picks.

They will address special teams. Interior DL is not hard to fill with players who are good enough.

We have a great secondary.

The Browns are built to win now and will be for awhile.

Watson on the field gives them the ability to compete with any team.

Chief Strategy Officer? How can you have a Chief Strategy Officer, when the only thing that could be argued is a strategy, Constantly Changes.



Analytics had enough yet?? Yes!

The Browns still have 5 picks in the first 118 selections. And that could increase with a Baker trade.

For that reason I think I would push for some conditional pick to be paid next draft.. To me, Watson IS this years 1st round pick, so to me it isn't costing us anything yet. Maybe we don't even get a pick this year and just go for a higher pick/picks next year. I admit I don't know how to value the situation, so I won't speculate on what that might, could or should be.

First of all, I say this with Love, and a tiny bit of humor.

There were some Saturday Morning cartoons on, and here is Yosemite Sam, and he's telling the camel to whoa,
and he says whoa, whoa! and then he says, " When I say Whoa, I mean whoa and he hits the camel over the head with a riffle.

then he says, Giddyup Camel, (it doesn't) he says Giddyup!! and he says, when I say Giddyup! I mean giddyup and he hits the camel in the backside with the riffle and the camel goes away before he can climb on, and he says, Whoa! camel, whoa.

( it didn't click yet.) ... Yosemite Sam and the camel get to the castle door, that bugs bunny is inside of, and he stands in front of the door, and Screams!! Open this Door! Open this door! and then the draw bridge type door opens right down on top of his head and smashes him into the ground!!!

And a muffled Yosemite sam voice is saying "close it! close it! close it!!" .... And that's when it hit me,

I think Jimmy Haslam has a tiny bit of Yosemite Sam in him.

The cartoon ends, ended, near the end of it, Bugs Bunny had put up a plethora of doors, and a pile of dynamite stacked against the last one, on the inside of the castle.

Then Bugs Bunny is outside the castle and says " I wonder if he's stubborn enough to open all those doors?"
Then theres's a huge explosion at the distant castle, and Bugs Bunny says "Yep"

j/c

Winning at any price is not a positive thing.

It did cost in picks, but worth it IMO.

Given Haslam's crooked history, no one should be surprised by this move.

I was surprised. Cleveland owners usually sit back and do nothing to improve the team in an effort to get better. They usually run bottom third payrolls and trade away our best players for garbage.

This is refreshing IMO.

Haslam is no different than the owners of the Falcons, Panthers, and Saints.

They all did their own investigations. They made their decisions right or wrong.

It cost a lot more than that. Some people just refuse to step up to the plate and admit it.

After 4 and a half years, the New York (this time calls for a cuss word), have spent so much effort, peer pressuring the Haslams to give up the Browns two best assets, OBJ, Baker, and Myles Garrett.

The NY dolts, who run the league, and never want (pitiful old) Cleveland, to have nice things...
Couldn't by rule, (aka) the first overall pick, keep the Browns from acquiring Myles Garrett, and Baker Mayfield, and somehow the Browns got OBJ, But!!!

After dozens of news stories, and rants by folks like Colin Cowherd, and all the myriad of Psychological warfare against Cleveland Browns' success,
the son of a gunning jets fan, and giants fan, losers from media ville, have successfully gotten the Hasalms to cave. in my opinion, to the pressure to part ways with the only things that were better than the other teams,
and made the Browns hard to beat.

Now! Never forget the idiots from other cities only want the Browns to be one thing, and that is, "in last place" . That's all they'll ever want and ever did want, and they'll say-print, have debates on, and play their stupid tv networks like espn and fox and nfln,
none of which are probably based in Cleveland, or even the Midwest.

Once the Los Angeles, / New York, / wherever/ crooks have successfully pressured the Browns to part with 2 of their best players, they will once again,
Turn up the Heat to pressure Jimmy Haslam and the Browns to part ways with Myles Garrett next!
Because

They are terribly bad people in those selfish arrogant markets that like those (#2) teams.

One report that was mentioned a couple of days ago, before Haslim and his A-team panicked once Mayfield made it clear that they were not welcomed in Texas and their attempt to smooth things over after Watson made it known that Haslam, his A-team along with the city of Cleveland were the last place he wanted to play for...and Watson informed the Browns that they were the first out of the Watson sweepstakes.

Jimbo and the boys had played their hand so poorly that they were now in a deep dark hole with only Keenum a possibility at QB. You can't make this stuff up..!

Mayfield was not about to compromise his sense of morality and allow Jimbo and his front office boys to use him any longer. Mayfield was not about to crawl for the Browns slimy owners.

Jimbo's only way out of the deep, dark hole he was responsible for digging was to use his wallet, that was now WIDE-OPEN, allowing Watson and the Texans to name their price while hoping that Watson would go back on his word and his very public statement concerning where he wanted to play.

Waston DID NOT WANT TO PLAY FOR HASLAM and HE DID NOT WANT TO PLAY IN CLEVELAND.

It wasn't a surprise to me to see Deshawn Watson go back on his word and proclaim that he now thought Cleveland was a great place to attempt a resurrection of his own morality, by proclaiming it was always his desire to play for the Cleveland Browns and their morally corrupt owners.




Baker Mayfield’s plan to boycott Browns may have revived Deshaun Watson effort

Posted by Mike Florio on March 20, 2022, 9:04 AM EDT

So how did the Browns end up securing the rights to quarterback Deshaun Watson after they were the first of four finalists to be eliminated? The Browns by all appearances sweetened the financial pot, to $46 million per year for five years. And the sweetening of the pot apparently was prompted by the fact that the relationship with their incumbent started had irreparably soured.

As explained by Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the Browns actually did intend to pivot back to Mayfield after missing out on Watson, and that they were moving on from Mayfield only if they could get someone like Watson, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, or Derek Carr. Mayfield, per Cabot, wasn’t on board with that.

As Cabot explained, Mayfield reached the “breaking point” when the Browns sent a delegation to Houston to meet with Watson. Adding injury to insult was the report from ESPN’s Chris Mortensen that the Browns want “an adult” at quarterback. Mayfield’s camp believed the comment came from within the Browns organization. (It likely came from the very top.)

So while Cleveland’s plan seemed to be “if you can’t be with the one you love, love the one you’re with,” Mayfield was done. Cabot reports that he “likely” would have skipped the offseason program. That he would have skipped the mandatory minicamp. That he “probably” would have held out of training camp if not traded.

It would have gotten expensive for Mayfield, but every player’s rights are set forth by two contracts — his personal deal with the team and the broader agreement between the league and the union. He had a right to stay away. Even if he showed up, he likely would have continued to ask for a trade. And he quite possibly would have been even more of a handful for the Browns to deal with.

Frankly, it’s stunning that the Browns thought they could chase a franchise quarterback without crossing the Rubicon with Mayfield. It shows that those inside the building failed to read a situation that was obvious to most on the outside.

Mayfield wasn’t going to tolerate an effort to supplant him. You can call that whatever you want — competitive, immature, territorial, shrewd, gutsy, impractical — but it was obvious based on what we’ve seen and heard from Mayfield that the last thing he would do is shrug and keep going.

Thus, the Browns had to keep going for Watson. And they got him. Now, they simply have to hope that the still-boiling legal situation won’t go off the rails. Even though it still could.
link

You know what they say about birds of a feather. Haslam and Watson are a match made in heaven. Neither seem to give a damn about character or ethics.

https://defector.com/jimmy-haslam-does-not-care-what-you-think/

Jimmy Haslam Does Not Care What You Think
112Comments

DIANA MOSKOVITZ
4:55 PM EDT on Mar 20, 2022

In this world, certain things are inherent truths: The sun will rise in the east and set in the west. Your toast will land butter-side down. And any large and powerful organization will dump its difficult news on a Friday. So, of course, it was on a Friday when the Cleveland Browns announced that they were trading for quarterback Deshaun Watson. In this case, though, the word trade, while correct, feels as if it downplaying how well the move worked out for Watson—who is still being sued by 22 women who say he sexually harassed them during massage appointments, including three lawsuits in which women say the QB forced them to perform oral sex. Three other women also have said publicly that the QB sexually harassed them during massage appointments, but one dropped her lawsuit instead of refilling it with her name, and the other two women have not filed suits.

Here is how last week went for Watson. After not playing football for a year, the Cleveland Browns gave Watson a $230 million, fully guaranteed contract, making it one of the richest deals in NFL history. The contract intentionally gave Watson a meager (by NFL QB standards) base salary in the first year of just more than $1 million, a move that appears to be done to significantly reduce the amount of money he would lose if suspended from playing by the NFL because of what those 25 women say. That assumes he’s suspended at all. Collectively, this means that, at least money wise, Watson came out a far richer man than he was before the the women came forward.

This led to a lot of anger, from NFL fans and, specifically, Browns fans. How could it not? I don’t want to pretend that every NFL fan cares about violence towards women—plenty of people were celebrating this move for the Browns. But there are fans who care because how could there not be when hundreds of millions of people follow the league. (Yes, those fans include women but, as the abuse by Richard Strauss at Ohio State and Robert Anderson at Michigan show, sexual violence happens to men, too.) After the Watson deal was announced, the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center said it got more than a thousand donations.

In response to this anger, the Browns issued several statements on Sunday, most notably from team owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam. Their statement is worth going over in detail because a lot can be gleaned about the mores of pro sports team ownership by what is said and, also, what is not. The statement opened with this:

We spent a tremendous amount of time exploring and investigating the opportunity to trade for Deshaun Watson.

If the Browns spent “significant” time looking into what happened, I’d expect this statement to go into detail about those steps. As the saying goes, show, don’t tell. But no surprise, this statement gives none of those details. You and I must take the Haslams—who made their fortune owning a truck-stop company recently involved in a massive fraud case —at their word. (The lead attorney for the women suing, Tony Buzbee, has said that no NFL team reached out to him.)

Next, the Haslams said this:

We are acutely aware and empathetic to the highly personal sentiments expressed about this decision.

Translation: Whatever sexual violence you have suffered in your own life is “personal.” Please stop tweeting about it. Thank you.

It went on:

Our team’s comprehensive evaluation process was of utmost importance due to the sensitive nature of his situation and the complex factors involved. We also understand there are still some legal proceedings that are ongoing and we will respect due process.

Translation: We once again will not tell you what we did, because we own the team and you do not.

The statement continued:

It was pivotal that we, along with Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski, meet with Deshaun to have a straightforward dialogue, discuss our priorities, and hear directly from him on how he wants to approach his career on and off the field. He was humble, sincere, and candid. In our conversations, Deshaun detailed his commitment to leading our team; he understands and embraces the hard work needed to build his name both in the community and on the field. Those in-depth conversations, the extensive evaluation process, his dedication to being a great teammate and devotion to helping others within the NFL, within the community, and through his charitable initiatives provided the foundation for us to pursue Deshaun.

Or, rather, the Haslams mean this: We will say nothing about our “investigation” but we will go into great detail about what Watson said because that is the only part that makes us look good.

And finally:

We are confident in Deshaun and excited about moving forward with him as our quarterback and supporting his genuine and determined efforts.”

Translation Let’s do some winning! Please ignore what all 25 women have said! Let’s freaking goooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

The statements from the rest of the Browns organization all struck similar tones. General manager Andrew Berry also insisted that their investigation was “extensive,” without actually saying what was done, and talked about “positive contributions to our team,” a.k.a. winning. Head coach Kevin Stefanski’s statement also pointed out the “extensive” work done to make them comfortable signing Watson, and also did not say what that work was. Neither of these statements matter, though. If the Haslams were bothered by what the women have said about Watson, they would have vetoed any move to sign him by their employees. Clearly, they were not.

Ever since the move was announced, much of the chatter has been about what the league will do and what sort of bind the NFL is in. This ignores that league “investigations” still largely remain kangaroo courts that do little beyond try to guess the amount of suspension that will make angry fans shut up. They are public relations, wrapped up in the language of justice, which always becomes apparent when a really, really good player is involved—and Watson is a really, really good player. He also has had more than two dozen women say he sexually harassed them, or worse, during massage appointments.

What’s most difficult about Watson’s new contract is how it serves as a reminder to anyone who cares about sexual violence and harassment that those wrongs, like so many wrongs, only count for so much in our society. You can be good enough at a lot of things, including football, and those in power will find a way to ignore what you have done because it’s convenient for them and their bottom line. This is not a new story for sports or our society. It is the same old story, the same old lesson, and what’s hardest is not knowing how many more times you and I must hear it and experience it and do our best to fight for change before those in power start finally to shift.

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Every person has the right to respond to this.

Haslam owns the team. Three other owners submitted trade bids and others expressed interest.

Fans have their right to boycott all things Browns. They can cancel season tickets. Not attend games. And stop watching tv.

The same can happen to other teams who have paid players that have committed other crimes or have been charged with crimes.

Watson still faces civil suits. So, his case is actually on going. Perhaps more information will come to light.

People have every right to make decisions on how they wish to handle this.

let's remember that Dee Haslam also signed off on this, and went down there to meet with Watson and reviewed the situation with everyone else involved.

keep that same energy on Dee that yall are on Jimmy.

Aditi (the reporter who's last name I'll just butcher) put it that way.

Did Dee actually make the trip, though?

from all the reporting and "sources", she did. and i would expect her too since she's very involved with the team.

and its not just her. if we're gonna be this ticked off about it, then that means all the fans need to be ticked off at the players on the team who are gonna fully embrace Watson as their QB. or the players that try to follow Watson here. are the players endorsing a sexual predator as well? are they endorsing him over the accusers?

if people gonna play morality police, they better keep that same energy across all aspects of the franchise. from the owners, to the players, to the fans that are gonna pack the stadium on sundays.

Exactly! Could you ever imagine in your wildest dreams the Dolans doing something like this. I am glad about this, because I know Haslam truly cares. He gets emotional about it and wants to succeed. I've never seen any type of emotions from Dolan, ever.

There are 1696 active players in the NFL.

There are 3581 people employed in the NFL.

Some percentage of all these people are going to be bad people. Andy Reid's son was found guilty numerous times of DUI.

The last time he seriously injured a five year old girl. Do the KC fans cheer for the Chiefs?

What would be the right thing to do to Watson? Should he play football again? If Ben was suspended six games was that enough?

Did the Steeler's lose fans because of accusations of rape that their quarterback was accused of?

Every team owner who was interested in Watson was no different than Haslam.

Like you said should the players all shun Watson? Should they tell the players union to kick him out of the NFL?

Should all the Browns coaches quit as a protest?

Should the NFL just close down?

Let's get real. Watson was going to play. He is now a Cleveland Brown.

How can a review of this situation be comprehensive if they never got the other side of the story.. They didn't speak to any of the women or their attorney.

Ask any law enforcement officer what they get when they only look at one side of the story?

The ongoing civil cases from a legal standpoint limit access.

Busbee was not contacted by any team.

At the same time it seems Watson is convicted by some people. Has he received due process?

How about we let this play out?

People have read statements from the accusers.

Is that enough to convict Watson?

Both parties deserve to be heard. That is what trials are for. Each side gets to question the other.

Then a jury decides.

Has that happened? The Grand Jury decided Not to indict. So, NO it has not happened.

The civil cases as yet have not been tried. How about we watch and listen before we decide?

FWIW, the legal experts on Twitter say it'd be highly irregular for those directly involved with ongoing cases to talk. If true, Buzbee presenting it this way is dumb.

Witness who allegedly coordinated Deshaun Watson's massage sessions pleads the Fifth

Matt Young - Jan 28
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A person who "allegedly worked closely with the Texans organization and coordinated massage sessions" for Deshaun Watson invoked her fifth amendment right during a deposition instead of answering questions about the Texans quarterback, according to Tony Buzbee, the attorney representing 22 women in civil lawsuits that include allegations of sexual assault during massage sessions.


On Thursday night, Buzbee emailed several members of the media with an update on the ongoing depositions being taking in the civil suits against Watson.

Thirteen of the 22 women who filed suit have been deposed by Watson's legal team and the rest are being scheduled, according to Buzbee. Brian Burney, Watson's business manager, and Quincy Avery, Watson's private quarterback coach, will be deposed as fact witnesses, which are people with knowledge of a case who describe only the facts as they know them.

The person Buzbee describes as someone who coordinated Watson's massage sessions also was a fact witness, but pled the fifth throughout questioning on the advice of her attorney.

Buzbee sent a transcript of the deposition, which included questions like, "You knew that Watson had a fetish to go to a massage and then try to convince the unsuspecting therapist to have sex with him, right?"

The only question her attorney advised she could answer was when she was asked if she knew a lot of Texans players. The witness replied, "Yes, I've worked with them for a long time."

Watson himself can be deposed as early as late February and Buzbee has said he intends to use his "full forty-plus hours" to question him, according to League of Justice's Amy Dash.

In addition to the 22 civil lawsuits, there are also 10 criminal complaints against Watson. The NFL also has an open investigation into the quarterback's conduct.

It sounds like this is her in grey...

Never talked to the lawyer for the women ! https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nf...ing/ar-AAViQfY?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

I know this sounds like it should happen, but the easiest way to avoid potential witness tampering charges is not to talk to them. The Browns aren't in law enforcement, and there are ongoing legal cases. The Browns had/have a vested interest in Watson winning his cases. The Browns talking to the accusers could have and likely would have been painted in a bad light by Buzbee.

They could very well have gotten access to the accusers' filed complaints and depositions from Watson, Rusty Hardin, or some random court clerk for all we know.

We don't know what the Browns know.

Sounds like this Busbee guy is trying to have this case tried by public opinion. Using the media to taint the process. And by reading some of the responses, it is working. There were no criminal charges levied, I will wait until these civil trials are over before I pass judgement on the guy.

NFL QBs work with private coaches?

Thirteen teams inquired about trading for Watson.

They were all prepared to deal with the backlash.

Yep. A snippet the Jason Lloyd article in The Athletic:

The Browns were one of 13 teams to express interest in Watson, who held a full no-trade clause. That left him in control of the proceedings. He reviewed the rosters of all 13 and submitted a list of five for which he was willing to waive his no-trade clause. The Texans eliminated one of his five teams because they were within the division. The four finalists were the Panthers, Saints, Falcons and Browns.

.....

Watson was impressed by the Haslams. Jimmy admitted he’s made plenty of mistakes since taking over the Browns and discussed what he’s learned and how Watson fits into the Browns’ long-term view. Dee spoke about her involvement in the community and what would be expected of Watson.

Watson told his people after the meeting he thought the Haslams were sharp and invested in the roster. He liked how they knew every player and how the players fit within the team. He also was impressed by the fact when he started talking, both Berry and Stefanski were taking notes on what he was saying.

The Browns PR machine is out in full force. We soon is to believed that we have sign the NFL equivalent of Mother Theresa.

Thanks for providing more evidence as to what a scum bag Haslam is.

It sounds like you're afraid of the public hearing the truth.

Public opinion is formed from half truths or false information. Like your signature calling him a predator. He was not designated a predator yet you call him that. That is not a truth it is an opinion founded by someone without all of the factual information. Those that were made aware of the factual information decided no crime was committed and did not indict. But their obviously not as enlightened as you are.

22 women designated him one. The police said they are credible witnesses. Overlooking the obvious to make yourself feel better may be a road you wish to travel down, but not me.

Those same woman did not go directly to the police. They tried to extort Deshaun and he and his lawyer told them to file a police report. There are also 18 other women who have given Deshaun the same kind message and were contacted the same way these women were and all of them dais he treated them very well and no inappropriate behaviors were made toward them. The FBI investigated, the Browns lawyers thoroughly vetted the story and found comfort with what they found. So far the evidence has suggested that Deshaun is telling the truth. Actually 1 accuser has already stated she lied. Extortion, lying, a thorough investigation. But public opinion is lagging behind. Why? What the national media decides is news. Isn't it rather fishy that the ME Too movement is not all over this case. Why is that?

How is guilt determined in the United States?

By a trial in a court of Law.

In a trial jurors get witness first hand the interrogations of both parties involved. And all allowed evidence is presented.

Prosecutors would get to interrogate Watson. Defense attorneys would get to interrogate the accusers.

And when it is all said and done. The jury gets to determine guilt or innocence.

Has That Happened?

Has anyone of us been witness to that process?

I'm glad you think O.J. is innocent.

We know already. Your claim is all 22 of these women must be scum bag liars and Watson is the beacon of truth. We get it.

How did you determine that?

Have I said a thing about OJ?

Did I say trials always get it right?

That was not the question. Read what I asked.

Have you been a part of the trial of Watson? No you have not.

Yet you have determined his guilt. Bravo for you

Hey pit; not trying to tell ya what to post or not post, but are you going to make the same posts every day for the next few months (years?) and not talk about anything else that is football/Browns-related?

That's how.

I will most likely address those who support Watson at all times. In just the last day or two I have addressed what I think the change in the offense will be concerning the pass verses run ration. With a more accurate QB and WR's with a higher catch rate, that should mean according to the numbers we will be passing more. I addressed those who asked if the run option was taken away from Baker by saying with a torn labrum one would think both Baker and Stefanski should have agreed to take Baker's run option away. I mean how dumb would it be to open the playbook to have designed plays that give the option of having a QB with a torn labrun running the ball?

I hope that answers your question.

He was not guilty... If you had other information, you should have shared it at the time.

What you think doesn't mean anything.

With a glint in her eye and a bottle of rubbing alcohol in her hand.

LOL..that actually pretty funny!

I don't see you post much very often. Guess I will see you in a year.

Yeah, it's great to see how many people dropped O.J. as a spokesperson and distanced themselves from O.J. Nobody would have rewarded him after that. Nobody was willing to do business with O.J. either. Nobody other than close personal friends wanted anything to do with him when the accusations came out either.

I guess the ramifications O.J. paid for his not being guilty didn't mean anything either.

I love jazz music.

Miles Davis is one of my favorite musicians of all time. Love Miles. Love his music.

Miles Davis was a notorious woman beater. I mean punches to the face of his wife.

In my book that makes him an effing coward. And I would not want a thing to do with him.

But when I listen to his music; that is all I hear. Music.

Make sense and I like and dislike R Kelly for the same reasons.

I have no problem with DeShaun wanting to play football whatsoever. As a player of the Browns or not makes no difference. He’s looking after himself and that is his fully rights.

What I have problem with is those who try to deflect his actions, who try to victimize these 22 women, those who try to rewrite history in order to justify that the Browns has to be the only organization who gave this man $230m guaranteed money.

So when I’m reading those pathetic statements from the owners, our GM and HC that’s when I’m want to throw up. All supporters are’t blind and born with an IQ close to the freezing point.

Apart from that everything is fine.

The money closed the deal.

All the rest is valid.

Haslams admit they didn’t know what they were doing when they bought the Browns

Posted by Michael David Smith on April 3, 2022, 6:27 AM EDT
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Before Jimmy and Dee Haslam bought the Browns, they were minority owners of the Steelers. At the time, that was sold as a positive: Their previous involvement with a winning franchise should give them a good idea of how to rebuild the Browns. But it hasn’t worked out that way.

Now the Haslams are admitting that their experience with the Steelers didn’t teach them much of anything, and that they didn’t know what they were doing when they bought the Browns a decade ago.


“No, no. You don’t know anything,” Dee Haslam said, via Nate Ulrich of the Akron Beacon Journal.

Jimmy Haslam offered a similar acknowledgement.

“We did a lousy job at first,” Jimmy Haslam said. “I mean, let’s just face it. It’s probably fair to say we didn’t know what we were doing. In some ways, I go, ’10 years, we haven’t won very many games.’ So I look at it that way.”

In Deshaun Watson, the Browns now have by far their best quarterback since the Haslams bought the team. But the off-field allegations that Watson sexually abused female massage therapists cast a pall over the Browns’ decision to trade for him, and has led to more questions about whether they really understand what it takes to earn the trust of Browns fans.

Even after a decade, the Haslams still have work to do to prove they know what they’re doing.

Tell us something we already didn't know or they haven't already said.

Haslams say Steelers experience didn't prep them to own Browns: 'You don't know anything'


Nate Ulrich
Akron Beacon Journal
link


PALM BEACH, Fla. — When Jimmy and Dee Haslam bought the Browns in 2012, their previous roles as minority owners of the Pittsburgh Steelers instilled confidence in much of Cleveland's fan base.

Oops! Those black-and-gold ties turned out to be fool's gold.

While the Haslams reflected Tuesday on their upcoming 10-year anniversary as Browns owners, they explained purchasing a stake in the AFC North rival Steelers in 2008 didn't prepare them whatsoever to run an NFL franchise.

“No, no. You don't know anything,” Dee Haslam said during the NFL owners meetings at The Breakers Palm Beach resort.

The Haslams actually described themselves as being lulled into a false sense of security because of their Steelers experience, which included Pittsburgh winning the Super Bowl to end the 2008 season.

“You go, 'That's a model franchise. Just do it like them,'” Jimmy Haslam said. “But you're not the ones making the decisions, and the people were already in place. [General Manager] Kevin Colbert was already there. [Coach] Mike Tomlin was already there. [The late Dan] Rooney was still there. So you had he and Art [Rooney II leading the organization].


“It was smooth running. [Quarterback Ben] Roethlisberger was a young man. We joined in '07. [Roethlisberger] was just coming into his own. With [Hall of Fame safety Troy] Polamalu, I mean, you go, 'This doesn't seem very hard.'

“We get Super Bowl rings before we even pay for our share. Listen, in business, the hiring cycle is different. There are usually people to train you. The NFL is great, but you've all heard us say this: There's no primer.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jimmy Haslam laments lack of wins Cleveland Browns have compiled under his ownership with wife, Dee

The Haslams struck a deal to buy the Browns for about $1 billion in August 2012, and NFL owners unanimously approved their purchase a few months later in October.

The Browns have gone 52-108-1 in their 10 seasons during the Haslam era. They have earned one winning record and one playoff berth during the span (when they went 11-5 in 2020 and defeated the Steelers in the wild-card round). They finished in the fourth and final spot in the division from 2012-17 and placed third from 2018-21.

“We did a lousy job at first,” Jimmy Haslam said. “I mean, let's just face it. It's probably fair to say we didn't know what we were doing. In some ways, I go, '10 years, we haven't won very many games.' So I look at it that way.”

Of course, the team's historically poor stretch of 1-31 in the 2016-17 seasons is part of the Haslams' legacy.

“It's been really hard,” Dee Haslam said. “I mean, it's been a hard 10 years.”

“Has it been hard, way harder than we thought, a lot of bumps in the road?” Jimmy Haslam added. “Yeah, but, I mean, it's a privilege to be part of the NFL and own a team, particularly in a community like Cleveland. So we feel blessed and fortunate and excited about going forward.”

The following is an additional part of the above story and under the same link...


Controversial Deshaun Watson trade 'the most consequential' decision of the Haslam era in Cleveland
So what's next for the Browns under the Haslams?

They believe the team, coming off an 8-9 season, is positioned to contend after the organization's controversial March 18 trade with the Houston Texans for quarterback Deshaun Watson. Watson is an elite talent, but his off-field baggage and the Browns' massive investment in him comes with risks.

Despite two dozen women accusing Watson of sexual misconduct or sexual assault during massage appointments, the Browns traded six draft picks, including three in the first round, to the Texans and gave the three-time Pro Bowl selection a five-year contract worth a record-setting $230 million fully guaranteed.

Watson has denied all wrongdoing, and two Texas grand juries declined on March 11 and March 24 to indict him on 10 criminal complaints. He faces 22 active civil lawsuits. Even without being charged, Watson could still be suspended under the NFL's personal conduct policy.

“Of the decisions we've made with the Browns, this was the most consequential one,” Jimmy Haslam said, “and we spent more time working on it than anything else.”

More from the NFL owners meetings:Cleveland Browns brush off criticism over record-setting Deshaun Watson contract

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jimmy and Dee Haslam have made many changes since buying Cleveland Browns nearly 10 years ago

The Haslams acknowledge they have cycled through coaches and front-office executives at a stunning rate. They have fired two head coaches — Rob Chudzinski (2013) and Freddie Kitchens (2019) — after just one season on the job.

Kevin Stefanski is the sixth full-time head coach and General Manager Andrew Berry is the sixth head of football operations to work for the Haslams in Cleveland.

Stefanski and Berry will become the first head coach-GM tandem to enter a third season intact under the Haslams.

“That says a lot, doesn't it?” Jimmy Haslam said. “It's everything.”

The Haslams signed Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta to a five-year contract extension in 2020, the same year Stefanski and Berry were hired and received deals of the same length.

“We just didn't do a good job [hiring] here initially,” Jimmy Haslam said, “but I think we think with Kevin and Andrew and with Paul, we've got a really good group in place.

“They work great together. It makes it way easier on us.”

Added Dee Haslam: "I think that's been fun. We're having fun."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Jimmy Haslam has high expectations for next season, but knows success in 'stacked' AFC isn't guaranteed

Yet so much hinges on the sport's most important position. Before the Watson deal, the last major splash the Browns made at quarterback was drafting Baker Mayfield first overall in 2018.

“We’re a better football team now than we were then,” Jimmy Haslam said. “Let me say we’re a better organization, OK? Andrew and Kevin help that tremendously — and our staff — so I feel better organizationally about where we are, and I feel better about the team.

“I feel better about the quarterback, but we’ve still got to produce. The AFC is stacked, and you all know how tough our division is.

“This is a challenging schedule, but I think directionally we’re heading in the right place, and we would say we feel better than we did in ’18.”

Cleveland Browns will likely look much different:With Deshaun Watson aboard, Kevin Stefanski doesn't rule out wholesale changes to offense

Hard to say if Jimmy and Dee are any more or less than any NFL owner.

They have a lot of money.

I do think that they are becoming more interested in the Cleveland community. The vision of the new lakefront.

Eventually a new stadium. I think long term they may do some good things for the city.

At this point in my life I am selfish. I want a Super Bowl. 1964 is a long time ago.

I have never been a huge basketball fan. More casual than baseball and football. But when Lebron and the Cav's won. Damn that felt good.

The Braves shocked me this past year with a World Series.

The Browns have to win a Super Bowl. I am running out of time. I need to see Cleveland experience that. It should not mean as much as it does. But it does.

I think owners are like QB's. They aren't viewed as being very good unless their team wins a championship, unfair as that might be.

I'd say the Haslams are at least good. Many owners don't do much to build a championship.

It is kind of a "breath of fresh air" to finally hear the truth come out of Haslam's mouth...that "he has sucked" as an owner of the Browns.

It is still a fact that not much has changed in the last 10 yrs or so, pertaining to the way Haslam operates as the owner who has his fingers all over everything..yet he still tries to portray himself as a "hands off owner". The trend continues where this owner just has to blow something up every 2 yrs or so.

While the Haslam's proclaim that they are having so much "fun"... it sure as hell hasn't been much fun being a Browns fan over the last 10 yrs,, since the Haslams bought the Browns.

Over the last 10 yrs, there have been members of this message board who have attempted to point out just how bad this owner has been...maybe now some of you will believe it now.

That is what you hear.

I have to say they did learn from the Rooney's. Pittsburgh's record their first 10 years of ownership 32-75-6, they had one winning season in the first 10 years and that was in year 10. They never made the playoffs, and went through 7 coaches in 10 years. It also took the Rooney's 39 years before they won their first Division Title. So yep it looks like they learned a lot from the Rooneys.

peen...from the article above...


...“No, no. You don’t know anything,” Dee Haslam said, via Nate Ulrich of the Akron Beacon Journal.

Jimmy Haslam offered a similar acknowledgement.

“We did a lousy job at first,” Jimmy Haslam said. “I mean, let’s just face it. It’s probably fair to say we didn’t know what we were doing. In some ways, I go, ’10 years, we haven’t won very many games.’ So I look at it that way.”

Of course, the team's historically poor stretch of 1-31 in the 2016-17 seasons is part of the Haslams' legacy.

“It's been really hard,” Dee Haslam said. “I mean, it's been a hard 10 years.”

“Has it been hard, way harder than we thought, a lot of bumps in the road?” Jimmy Haslam added.

An important early step to improving is figuring out what you don't know that you don't know.

...

GM...From the article above...the headline reads..

Haslams say Steelers experience didn't prep them to own Browns: 'You don't know anything'


While the Haslams reflected Tuesday on their upcoming 10-year anniversary as Browns owners, they explained purchasing a stake in the AFC North rival Steelers in 2008 didn't prepare them whatsoever to run an NFL franchise.

“No, no. You don't know anything,” Dee Haslam said during the NFL owners meetings at The Breakers Palm Beach resort.

...The Haslams actually described themselves as being lulled into a false sense of security because of their Steelers experience, which included Pittsburgh winning the Super Bowl to end the 2008 season.

“You go, 'That's a model franchise. Just do it like them,'” Jimmy Haslam said.


“It was smooth running. [Quarterback Ben] Roethlisberger was a young man. We joined in '07. [Roethlisberger] was just coming into his own. With [Hall of Fame safety Troy] Polamalu, I mean, you go, 'This doesn't seem very hard.'

“We get Super Bowl rings before we even pay for our share. Listen, in business, the hiring cycle is different. There are usually people to train you. The NFL is great, but you've all heard us say this: There's no primer.”

The Rooney's sucked the first 39 years they owned their team, and The Haslem's have sucked for the first ten years, so get back with me in 29 years and we can compare the teams records and accomplishments up to that point.

GM...actually, we are in agreement...

"The Haslem's have sucked for the first ten years,"

I will add, the Haslams didn't learn anything as minority owners of the Steelers...they thought it would be easy..then Jimbo went to running the Browns like he ran Pilot Flying J...!

Excellent point. Then they put together a few great drafts, slid Bradshaw in for Hanratty and took off from there.

"then Jimbo went to running the Browns like he ran Pilot Flying J...!"

He became a billionaire running Pilot, I wouldn't call that a failure.

I thought the idea was to learn "what not to do" from the Rooney's as much as it was to learn "what to do" from the Rooney's. Are you trying to say what the Haslam's learned from the Rooney's was "how to lose"?

I had no idea that was the objective.

We do agree about the first ten years.

The Haslems were Rookie owners and like any profession there is a lot to learn when you don't have any experience. I think they are on the right track (finally) but only time will tell.

I'm saying there is a learning curve. For 39 years everybody talked about how bad the Steelers sucked and that the Rooney's were pee poor owners, then all of a sudden after their putrid play for 39 years they Hired the right people and started winning the Rooneys went form crappy owners one of the top owners in football.

So on the "what not to do" front, they didn't learn anything from the Rooney's and we should think it's realistic to expect the same results? And what successful NFL team were the Rooney's a minority owner before the Steelers?

The Rooneys weren't owners of another NFL team prior to taking over the Steelers.... We may have another 29 years to do to get to where the Steelers have been.

Everyone has to remember this one little fact,,, if a team in the 40s or 50s put a bunch of players together, they stayed together.. Teams has all the control. If a player left the team it was because he was traded or quit football or was cut and moved on.

If you found good players, they stayed put.

They were paid nearly nothing. Had to work at regular jobs in the off season.

SO if you put a team together, you could hold it like that for years.

Really lol .... maybe if the Rooneys had been minority owners first it wouldn't have taken them 39 freakin years of sucking arse before they got better.

Don't waste your time my friend.

Yeah, making excuses for the consistent failings of others is a waste of time.

It seems that the effort to show that Jimma is keeping his fingers out of the operational aspect of the franchise is taking a bit of a hit with the comment below from a Larry Brown article today...

link
The lack of foresight on the Watson deal was spurred on by what many view as the impulsivity of Browns owner Jimmy Haslam.

“Anyone who has worked under him for any period of time will tell you the Flying J (Haslam) is one of the most impulsive guys you’ll ever meet,” a source told Sando.

I dont know which franchise has had worse ownership since 99 , the Lions or Browns

Al Lerner had the money, but hired 2 buffoons to run the front office
Randy Lerner had no.interest in being a owner and hired total idiots to be GMs. He had
No.desire bring a winner to Cleveland
Jimmy Haslam is out of his element being a owner. He thinks having lots of money
Equates to winning football.
His move to bring Watson just reflects how desperate this franchise is and its
Failed to secure a franchise QB

First, what is a owners " element"?

Second, how do you know it was Haslams idea to go after Watson? No doubt he had to agree to such a move. I just wouldn't classify it as "his move".

"
The lack of foresight on the Watson deal was spurred on by what many view as the impulsivity of Browns owner Jimmy Haslam."

what many "view" as impulsivity. In other words, they have no proof, they just think it.

All speculation and fodder for weak minded people to jump on.

"His move to bring Watson just reflects how desperate this franchise is and its
Failed to secure a franchise QB"

Seems to me that signing Watson is securing a franchise QB

And the person who makes the decision on future coaching hires. That's why he refused to play in Houston. So it looks as if Haslam had no problem signing a QB that he feels is also qualified to make the call on future coaching hires as well. When you make a 230 million dollar contract fully guaranteed you just put all the power in the hands of that player. Not just playing QB. You didn't just sign that player, you married him.

As I understand it Watson was told he would have a say then they did not listen to him. Couple that with his concerns about racism in the organization and you have him being unhappy. It does sound different than your spin on it that he threw a temper tantrum and refused to be a grown up.

If that is the standard, being told by the FO that he would have say, then one would also have to consider that not only was Baker told he would be the starter in 2022 but so was the entire fan base.

In both cases the QB's involved were lied to by their FO. I'm not trying to favor one situation over the other. I'm showing just how similar both situations actually are and how both QB's acted in a very similar fashion.

I wouldn't say that Watson threw a tantrum. But when comparing the two situations I wouldn't say that Baker did either.

steuby...also included in my post was this, from the link I provided...

..."“Anyone who has worked under him for any period of time will tell you the Flying J (Haslam) is one of the most impulsive guys you’ll ever meet,” a source told Sando."

Seems that this source Sando refers to folks who have worked for Jimmy...no proof ? The man said what he said and he allowed himself to be quoted...what more do you want?

That comment has no bearing on what he did with Watson. We all have seen his impulsive behavior, but making a claim that it was the reason Watson was signed is just speculation. I'm sure he agreed to it, but there is no proof that he made the original decision. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. But, if I was the owner of this team and one of the best QBs came available, I definitely would suggest getting him. I would have to believe if you were in the same position you would also.

I would be fine if the decision was in part Haslams idea. At least we have a owner trying to do something to win. He did the same thing at Tennessee when the Volunteers needed something, his family along with a couple of others put up millions in seed money to kick off major projects around the university, not all football related.

I'd rather have an owner who cares and tries to improve things, even if they botch things, over an owner who doesn't give a crap and counts heads walking through the turnstiles.

Maybe it's me - But Haslam once again being tone deaf to his home town market. A permanent dome? NEVER. even a retractable dome .... pffft.

I've lived through Hue and now this Watson debacle. This is too much. GFU Jimmy Haslam. jmo

A few months ago I saw a drawing of the planned lakefront. It looked cool.

But there was nothing in detail about a new stadium.

I understand and am not against efforts to revitalize downtown.

However, I would never be ok with a dome. Never. Weather and natural grass should always be a part of football in Cleveland.

I think a retractable roof would be wise. The stadium just wouldn't be for the Browns. The city could host many more events like Indy, Minni, Detroit, etc do. Progress is a good thing.

I agree.

This.

Build that dome! Look forward to this when it happens.

This * 2;

This X 3

I think a retractable dome would be good for the city of Cleveland. They're talking about one here in Nashville as well. I highly doubt that Haslam's motivation for suggesting that a dome be built is about the city itself. It's obvious when you sign a great passing QB you want the proper conditions for him to succeed. That brings the idea of a dome into the picture for him.

But regardless of his personal motive, he's still correct that it would be good for Cleveland. At least the tax payers would get more of a return on the investment of such a stadium.

The only retractable stadium I have been in is the Diamondbacks stadium. It is horrible. You feel closed in and oppressed. it is not at all like being in an open stadium when the roof is open. Maybe that's not typical - maybe others are gorgeous, and a retractable roof can be incorporated and it feels 100% "open" when the roof is not closed???

Makes sense.

Being along the Lake doesn't help with maintenance costs.

They just don't build stuff like they used to...

Now we have disposable stadiums.

I agree it could be good for the city. Much more opportunity to host many other events.

Bad for the city, as the tax payers would be footing most of it, as well as people going to the city in hotel taxes, etc.

I've been to the Cardinals stadium. I thought it was nice.

Oh I certainly agree in terms of local taxpayers footing most of the bill. In regards to people coming from out of town I'm not sure we're on the same page. The difference as I see it is that local taxpayers have no choice. If the stadium is approved they are forced to help pay for it no matter if they approve of it or not. They may never go to that stadium and still be required to help pay the bill.

When a fan makes a decision to come in from out of town they have a choice. They can decide on their own whether they wish to help pay the bill on that stadium through paying a higher tax rate in order to do so. So while I agree with you that taxpayers having to foot the bill for these stadiums is not something I approve of, I don't object nearly as much when people have a choice in deciding if they are willing to or not. And in the grand scheme of things that increased tax is a tiny percentage of what the trip itself will cost so I doubt many will change their mind based on it.

Sadly if people wish to keep an NFL team, they have to provide state of the art stadiums. It's what happens when business has the option of holding cities hostage by threatening to relocate. Cities that do not have a team will pay a kings ransom to get one. We experienced that first hand. A city that cried about their team being stolen, the Colts, turned around and did the exact same thing to another city and NFL fan base. It's a reality I'm sure neither of us like, but a reality none the less.

I'm not questioning that you felt that way, but I highly doubt most would. I don't feel that way at a concert venue when they're enclosed. I think it might be a change that would possibly take some getting used to because most of us are used to attending sporting events outdoors. But for some reason I feel that if I am not feeling enclosed at the 2500 seat concert venue, I wouldn't feel enclosed in a 60k seat stadium with a vastly high roof. And from the retractable dome stadiums I've seen, no the roof doesn't retract to the point that it's "exactly" like a fully open air stadium, but pretty close.

Do people go for the stadium for football? Or for the stadium?

The current stadium was done in 1999 if memory serves me. Should the taxpayers be expected to, let's say this would go through by 2026 - would/should the local tax payers be expected to foot a 2-4 billion stadium? And then in another 26 or 27 years do it again?

I get it, a dome would make a new stadium much more accommodating to host many more events, year round. I'm must not certain there is/would be a payback period for the citizens.

And the neat thing is, I don't get a vote, and yes, I have a choice as to whether I attend games or not, and spend the night or not. But I don't go to Cleveland for JUST a football game/s. Wife and I have some favorite spots, and going there for a short weekend is something we used to like to do.

I get up to Glendale on the rare occasions when the Browns visit.

While the screens, retractable roof and roll-out field are impressive, I still find the experience claustrophobic and artificial.

jmho

I guess you must have missed the part where I totally agreed with you about local taxpayers footing the bill? Oh well. I understand that football and the use of this stadium isn't the only reason you go to Cleveland. I must not have made myself clear about any of what I posted. I don't like that any tax payers have to foot the bill for a billionaire's stadium. In the end you still have the choice whether to go to Cleveland or not. I have a feeling that if they build a dome you might also be going to attend concerts or other events at that stadium too. I don't expect you to like it. I don't like the idea here in Nashville either.

But the choice is pretty simple. If you want to keep an NFL team, that's what has to be done. Once again, I don't like that. It's just the reality. No need to start a fight. We actually agree.

I think the idea is absurd. And using 10M per year to justify 1B+ on a new stadium is even dumber. The plans submitted last year for the lakefront development project were well thought out, made the entire area beautiful, made the current stadium much more accessible, and was a win-win for everyone involved. What happened?

And that's fine. I enjoyed the game there, Browns Cardinals in.......heck, I don't remember2004 or so? When Winslow caught the pass in the endzone....ruled out of bounds.

I've been to Detroit, and Indy for games, and yea, totally different in a dome - like, you almost speak quieter.

But, for the single game I was at in Arizona, it was great - roof was open. Great atmosphere, and truthfully, great fans.

2007. Winslow definitely caught the pass in bounds according to the rules then. DA had a decent game.

And you're right. The Cardinals fans are pretty cool.

I went to the Atlanta stadium once.

Will never go again. I hated it.

However, I don't go to games often. I went twice to Cleveland.

I can only speak for myself as a fan. I want the weather. I like when it is part of the game. Nice day, bad day I don't care.

I even love watching games on tv when it is snowing. Old school all the way when it comes to football and the elements.

We were in AZ a couple years ago for Christmas and ended up at the Tucson BB. An awesome group of people, and the place was packed at the end of a bad season.

For the longest time and even now, I was/am against a dome in Cleveland. But the reality of the economics is such that the stadium needs a year round income stream to remain viable.. A compromise would be a retractable dome that could remain open so you could have natural turf while being closed for bad weather. I hate it but I recognize that it's really needed.

It's goofy to think in 2022 a stadium without a roof would be built.

We needed a dome when the last stadium was erected. My preference would be a retractable, and that might be the only kind to build these days. Open it up for the nice weather games, then close it up.

If you can't use a facility like that 12 months a year, there isn't going to be a ROI.

The 21st century is 21% over. Maybe it's time to join it.

I get it.

Like I said. For me no.

I don't go to games so I understand how it works and all the reasons why.

It does not mean I like it.

Football is a game that was made for outside. You play in everything weather throws except lightning. It is one of the reasons I like it.

I love mud games, snow games, breath fog, love it. Dallas stadium IMO is gross. Love GB.

Just the way it is.

I'm with you.

One of my favorite games PLAYING, was the mud bowl. In high school. Get in a 3 point stance on O OR d, you hand sunk almost to your wrist - not quite, but close.

Both teams dealt with the same thing.

I get the cleanness of a dome. I get some teams need a dome - Green Bay doesn't.

I also get a dome would make the stadium available for events throughout the year, winter included.

Yes, but we have fans that say things like this:"This is too much. GFU Jimmy Haslam"

High level thinking.

I get it completely, I love outdoor games in bad weather, and it’s a shame that the stadium was only built 23 years ago and now might be replaced. I say keep the roof open for football, always.

But.

Times change. An all-weather facility will bring in more revenue opportunities, and investment in a city’s infrastructure is usually a good thing. Even if a taxpayer NEVER sets foot in a new stadium, he still benefits because, in theory, it’s good for the city as a whole.

However, I’d be curious to see how much Haslam is willing to kick in to help pay for it.

As little as possible.

Dome with natural turf is the way to go. Hey its time the Browns Host the Super Bowl and win the darn thing!

jmho

I really don't disagree as it pertains to the way "I like football" to be played. But let me ask you about your statement in bold. "Football is a game that was made for outside."

Wasn't it created at a time when there was no choice but to play it outside? There were no "indoor stadiums" at that time. No venues that were large enough to entertain such a crowd size which were under roof. No domed stadiums, before retractable domes. I'm not sure if football was made for outside or if outside was the only option for football at the time.

j/c:

Personally, I think there are certain weather conditions that hurt the integrity and quality of the game. I don't feel that way about snow or rain games. Not even cold weather games. But, those games where the wind is blowing so fiercely that it incapacitates both teams. Remember the Buffalo/New England game last year. Didn't NE only attempt 3 passes or something like that? That wasn't a good game to watch or play in.

To add to that, what they could control was when it was played....it was pretty much over at Thanksgiving for the college regular season NFL championship was over by mid Dec.

Bowl games weren't played in places like Cleveland or Buffalo. People with some common sense decided to control bad, cold weather and play them in places like New Orleans, Miami or Pasadena.

Yes there were no options. Grass and outside.

I understand all the spreadsheet arguments. Fan experience, all year round money maker etc.

I don't give a damn. I like games outside on grass.

I dislike big screens and trains on the sidelines and all the distractions of dome stadiums.

I like it when it is miserable and the players and fans suffer in the elements.

Damn does everything have to be room temperature in a controlled environment? Does everyone have to be comfy?

How about a real life shared experience? Remember when it was -20 and we froze and won 3-0?

Is there something wrong with something wild and unusual? In the Fall it is swell and nice and warm then as the season goes on it gets tough. When it is January and snowing lets make sure everyone feels nothing.
Let's go ahead and stop kick off returns so nobody gets hurt.

I am sure it will all go away and be a memory. Homogenized football will make everyone comfy.

Cool. We all have opinions.

Do you move your TV out in to the open yard on cold, rainy days to watch games? Nothing like watching games in the elements.

LOL

Yes.

I sit in the rain and look through the window to the game of tv.

Each to their own.

I accept not many will see it the way I do. That does not bother me a bit.

Some games remain in my memory like frostbite.

Dallas vs Green Bay Super Bowl 1967 Super Bowl. Oh the glorious pain.

All's good my friend. As a guy who goes up for almost all of the home games over the last 15 years, I would like to see a roof on the place.

Like I said. I understand. People like comfort.

Especially as you age.

I once lived in a log cabin in Montana near the continental divide. Wood cook stove, no running water, odd house, no electricity and a long way from everywhere.

It would be hard to handle for me today.

I still like it but I have to watch others do it.

I like the way Lambeau Field looks. Love to watch games from Wrigley Field.

Just my make up.

I respect everyone's personal preferences on this situation, but I think this entire idea is about generating more revenue and making more money. It's not really about how the fans want to watch the games. JMO.

Of course.

It is a spreadsheet decision.

Yeah, that's the premise... and that's what the team owner always says.

Where does this revenue come from?

Only the largest music artists have stadium tours. And bands (especially large bands on iconic tours) usually tour in the summer... because not every venue is a dome.

What kind of trade show doesn't fit in the IX Center or Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse??

None that I can think of.

I'm sure there are some events out there... maybe two per year... so that "found revenue" will pay for the stadium in

Over time, nearly everything progresses and try as we might, hanging on to the past concerning where the Browns play their home games..in an outdoor stadium vs some sort of a dome..it does not matter. Football is football regardless of where it is played.

j/c:

I think there are a lot of other sporting events that might come to Cleveland. When Cleveland has had the available venue capacity and style, they have won bids and subsequently knocked it out of the park as a city and the planning commission has seen GREAT reviews.

- All-Star games
- NCAA tournaments (men and women)
- Championship tournaments
- Political conferences

What else could be on the table?....I could see more international soccer matches. Maybe it puts Cleveland on the radar to actually get a professional soccer team when the Crew decides to relocate? How about a Big Ten Championship game instead of Indy or a neutral city host for other football games. How about the ability to realistically bid on the Superbowl? And yes, concerts too I suppose. I think the opportunities are out there.

JMO opinion. If the Browns decide to build a new stadium or renovate, it would be absolutely stupid to not put some sort of covering on the stadium. You are just doing this thing wrong if you don't.

I'd prefer a retractable roof so you could still enjoy games outdoors at times.

I think you missed the part where I agreed with you that I prefer the elements myself. To me it's just another part of the chess match. Can you adjust? Can you game plan on the fly? Are you better at overcoming adversity than your opponent? So we actually agree on that part.

I was simply questioning whether football was actually designed and created for being played outdoors or if playing outdoors was the only option they had at the time.

No doubt that would be the preference. Any event for that matter. It would also allow for a natural surface unless you had the means to roll the entire field in and out on demand...I think 1-2 stadiums have that set-up. I don't know, maybe that would be less expensive than moving the roof.

jc...

I've been thinking about how Browns fans are going to react if Watson is suspended for the entire 2022 season. IMO, it's going to get real ugly in Cleveland and those responsible for bringing the Texans mess to Cleveland are in for some serious questioning by the media and the Browns fan base.

The Browns ownership and management team are responsible for their decisions and each of them will have face some much deserved criticism and questioning about what the hell they were thinking when they gave up a kings ransom in draft capitol to the Texans to make their mess the property of the Browns.

The excuses and claims that the Browns did their homework and based on their extensive investigation of Watson's mess...that is not going to fly or satisfy most who question the wisdom and intelligence of ownership and those who were advising ownership. Some will try to claim that other teams tried to make a deal for Watson, therefore what is wrong with the Browns doing the same..? I wonder how many of those teams would want Watson now, after some of the ugly facts have been exposed to the world. But remember, the Browns owner and his management team "did their homework".

The pie in the sky predictions that even if Watson is suspended for 2022, two years down the road at the conclusion of the 2023 season, the Watson mess will pay dividends with Super Bowl win. That will be the justification some will hang on to as they try to justify what the Browns ownership and management team have done by paying the Texans in draft picks, to make Watson the new face of the Cleveland Browns.

The Browns ownership bought this mess and they are responsible. All I can do is shake my head and wonder, what's next..?

I think the local media are on board with ownership and won't resort to tuff and real questioning, they'll paint it with the rosiest brush circumstances allow. (mostly).

The original post of this topic.

If we win a few games early, I don't think it will get too ugly. If we start out ofer whatever, it will get very ugly. No matter who's under center.

He's back!

I believe the Browns did do their homework. I do not believe the Browns are too stupid to not do their homework. We have a ton of bright guys in the FO. There were multiple teams willing to pay a ton for Watson. It's not like the Browns were the lone team. Some folks have never liked Haslam or this FO. Hell, I remember thread after thread after thread about how bad our FO was. I remember the Analytics, Had Enough Yet thread or threads. It's fine if people don't like Haslam and/or the FO, but not everyone has to agree w/such opinions.

I support the Browns decision to move on from Baker and go w/Watson. Others don't. It's all good because we are all entitled to our opinions w/being belittled.

I stopped reading there....lol...just kidding mac.

I don't think it will get real ugly.

I think most people were expecting some sort of suspension, and if they were honest, it was going to be pretty long. I don't know that making it an entire season is going to flip many people who haven't already flipped on the matter.

Just because people yell, scream, urinate, or moan doesn't make the group any larger. It just makes them loud, thinking because they talk louder it is going to make people listen.

In a odd way, a year long suspension would help the Browns. It would clear a lot of cap space for next year.

If by multiple you mean 4 out of 32. That's not a very high bar when you point out the actual number and ratio.

vers...I guess you are privy to sources and information that the rest of us don't have..! Maybe you can cite some sources to back up your claim above..?

I really would like to know what other teams were offering Watson and maybe you can share those articles with the rest of the board members...just how much did those multiple teams offer Watson ?

BTW, I did point out in my post that some would attempt to justify the Browns decision by pointing their finger at the other teams that inquired about Watson but did not sign him.

A quote from my post above..

Quote

Some will try to claim that other teams tried to make a deal for Watson, therefore what is wrong with the Browns doing the same..? I wonder how many of those teams would want Watson now, after some of the ugly facts have been exposed to the world. But remember, the Browns owner and his management team "did their homework".

You made one statement in your earlier post that I'm not quite sure I agree with....


I'm not saying you are wrong but I certainly don't feel you can assume you are right. What we do know is that Haslam signs the checks and has the final say over everything. We know it's he who reaps the financial reward for the teams success. So that leaves zero doubt that Haslam approved of the deal and made this decision.

What we don't know is how people such as Depo and Berry felt about such a deal. All we know for sure is that they didn't quit their jobs because of it. I have seen nothing that would suggest they are any part of an investigative team that would have conducted the so called thorough investigation before the deal. In all honesty I can't imagine someone who is truly a numbers guy considering the risk assessment angle in all of this giving full support on such a deal.

Once again I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just not convinced you're right when it comes to the management portion of your comments.

And?


What is your point?

I have posted articles multiple times. There were originally 13 teams interested. I posted the article in the Tailgate forum after another poster asked for a link. I also know that Indy was immediately rejected by Houston because they are in the same division. There said to be six teams that had serious interest. In the end, four teams agreed to the Texans' trade demands. That is "multiple" no matter how you look at it. I'm sure you will spin away, though.

Only four teams actually made an offer. Making an inquiry is like calling a car lot to ask how much they want for a car you saw in their ad. Claiming anyone who asked what the price tag was, was serious about signing watson is misleading at best.

Only one team offered him a quarter of a billion dollars after he claimed they were out of contention. That goes beyond serious and borderlines on desperate.

Speaking of misleading... there was at least 1 team that was butthurt by not being able to match the Browns contract offer.

Yet never said they would have.

Browns Made the Worst Trade in Sports History

Monday on 2 Pros and a Cup of Joe, Jonas Knox, Brady Quinn and LaVar Arrington react to the latest reports that the NFL is pushing for an indefinite suspension of Deshaun Watson and won't accept anything less than a full season.

Brady Quinn: "This is a prime example of why some organizations are just dumpster fires. Even when it's talented, even when they've made a recent playoff run and it looks optimistic, this is why they can't sustain itself, because they go make the type of move they did this offseason, obviously not having all the information... Like, no one has ever handled this sort of situation before in any professional sports league. It is so unique, and yet the Browns took the chance to sign this dude to the biggest contract in NFL history, thinking they were good. I look back and you see a number of organizations that are just gonna struggle, and it's hard for me not to feel like this organization is always gonna struggle."

Jonas Knox: "This is the worst trade-slash-signing in history because it's not like signing a player who goes to a team and just falls off a cliff... All of this was avoidable. You didn't have to make the deal for him and give up what you did, but you did knowing the 22 lawsuits were out there. And you burned the bridge with the quarterback that won you a playoff game in Pittsburgh."

LaVar Arrington: "And you reset the market for every quarterback in the league with a guy who may not even play another game. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a worse deal ever done in sports."

https://foxsports1070.iheart.com/fe...-made-the-worst-trade-in-sports-history/

Okay mac, your turn.



Will you please provide links that prove that the Browns did not do their homework? No hypotheticals. Actual proof. You wanna call me out as if I am a liar, well now it is your turn to prove your claim.

What's really clear to me is that IF Watson gets a 1 year suspension, it will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Browns Due Diligence was neither Due or Diligent! At that point I think it would be safe to say, they blew the entire deal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-watsons-browns-contract-if-given-chance


This is what I was referring to. One team absolutely would have. We just don't know who it was, but it's hypothesized in the link that that team was Indy.

TLDR
1. 13 teams wanted in on Watson
2. Only 5 teams wanted him bad enough to engage with Houston on trade compensation
3. We know the rest....

edit: Read the last line of the article, then read it again. IMO, that tells you everything you need to know about the approach of our own FO.

I think that's certainly the worst case scenario and it's a possible outcome / verdict.

Best case scenario might be only a 6 game suspension.

Reality is probably somewhere in the middle. For me it's a bad trade with anything more than a 10 game suspension. If he were to go to trial and be found guilty in a civil court - it'd also be a sickening and like a gut punch.

All this talk about "due diligence", "worst trade" "blown deal" is all a bunch of crap to me. Watson, who is a top five QB without a doubt, probably will get suspended. Who knows for how long? But what most of the people bashing the signing overlook, is that after the suspension, even if it is year long, the Browns have one of the best QBs in the NFL locked up for years.

Also, if Brisset has to play, many forget that he went 6-4 with the Colts, until he was injured.

It will suck if he gets a full year, but I doubt it will be that long. But when this is over, we will have the best QB to wear a Browns uniform since Kosar.

Brady Quinn lol he couldnt even beat out our 3rd string qb in his prime.

Brady Quinn: Some people could point to us drafting him as an example of an organization being a dumpster fire and I liked Brady. I wanted him to succeed in the worst way as I do all our players.

So,

A 1st and 4th in 2022
A 1st and 3rd in 2023
A 1st and 4th in 2024

And a fully guaranteed 230M contract...

For a "top five" QB that you will pay 43M the first year, while (most likely) flushing the season down the drain. By the time he takes the field he will be 2 years away from football. A two year stint that he spent embroiled in turmoil. Turmoil throughout the whole organization and fanbase. Every one of your "star" players a year older with one less year on their contracts.


I'd like to hear straight from the horse's mouth, or anyone's mouth, for that matter...

Knowing everything we know now, would you still do this deal?

Well based on the fact I'm going to have a though or impossible time cheering for him personally... No.

Based on the team being better and putting aside protestations about his character... A ban of 8 games or less, I think the Browns made a move that will make sense.

More than a 10 game ban and its a bad trade. Probably a wasted year. Even if JB can be as good as injured Baker or a bit better, we'd have been better off with a #1 pick and Baker.

Jmo

Yeah, I forgot to include the disclaimer, based on his comment -- "even if it is year long" as part of the decision. So based on a year-long suspension, would anyone do this deal?

That still doesn't mean other teams weren't in the mix.

Why are we bickering about this? Just because Mac questions it? Other teams were seeking Watsons services. Just because we ended up getting him doesn't mean other's weren't trying.

I know you are smart enough to know that in situations like this the high bid usually wins, so it's a little underhanded to say we were the only ones willing to pay what we did.

Maybe so, but that is also a little short sighted.

Winning the Super Bowl or a deep playoff run with Brissett would be great for this year, but that would make this a bad trade.

Think about it.

I agree with this bit 100%.

Me also. I wasn't crazy about the deal when I first heard about it because of the situation with DW and all the compensation. I said this was going to blow up in our faces and unfortunately it's getting to look more and more like it.

two things:

1. I don't think I've heard or read anyone saying that Watson isn't a top QB....I ask, what good is a Top QB if he can't play? A $230 million QB that can't play?

2. Brisset is 14-23 as a starter...

The Browns did their "homework" launching an "extensive investigation" into Watson's conduct concerning his off the field conduct..details of the Browns investigation are just beginning to leak out.

Reading the above information, what were the Browns expecting to gain by interviewing 3 female lawyers who were working for Rusty Hardin, Watson's attorney..?

I have no doubt that these 3 female lawyers told the Browns investigating team what a great guy Deshaun Watson is and how terrible these woman were for accusing Watson of sexual misconduct. But, did these 3 lawyers say anything about the private room that the Texans arranged for Watson for his private massage sessions..?

I guess by questioning 3 unnamed 'female' lawyers from Rusty Hardin's own office, IT WOULD provide the Browns with some favorable optics to support the Browns desire to sign Watson. Just what was the goal of the Browns investigation..? Did the Browns investigation turn up the information about Watson's conduct at The Houstonian Hotel, Club & Spa, the luxury hotel that the Texans secured for Watson for his massage sessions ? Did the Browns investigation question the Texans about what they knew, concerning Watson's conduct at The Historian..?

IMO, it's beginning to look like the Browns investigation was an "amateurish shame" in an attempt to justify Haslam's desire to do whatever it took to make Watson the New Face of the Cleveland Browns.

mac, you asked for links to prove a statement I made. I provided three links. There are more to support my claims. I then asked you to provide proof of your claims. I am still waiting for you to respond.

Regarding whether or not I would approve of the Watson trade again. I say yes. We don't know the length of the suspension yet. Even if it for a year, I would still do the trade because Watson could be our starting qb for another decade. Finding a top tier qb is so difficult. Watson would give us hope of a brighter future. Baker did not.

I know what the team looks like this year. I think Baker would be good enough to make a deep playoff run. I don't know what the team looks like next year - and even assuming DW starts all 17 games of the regular season, it will be a ridiculous period of time between starts for Watson in the NFL. He was a top 5 QB when he was playing - he won't have played for 2+ years. We've already seen some DW fans walk back expectations about how phenomenal Watson will be. So... for me, wasting this year, 3 first rounders would be very much a long term waste/gamble that I would not make.

vers...below is the conversation in question...


vers...I think if you would take the time to read what I was questioning, you would clearly know that was question HOW MUCH the other teams were willing to pay Watson.

You claimed other teams were willing to pay Watson "A TON"...I wanted to know much those 'multiple teams' were offering Watson.

I figured you would either ignore it or spin it. Multiple teams were interested in Watson. Four teams agreed to the Texans demands to receive three first round picks plus more for Watson. That is a ton to pay by anyone's definition.

I think this is right. I also think many other teams expressed interest. The problem is none of that matters, it was only the Browns that actually acquired DW.

There might have been 30 other teams willing to draft Ryan Leaf. But only one did. He's their draft bust and k owing other teams would have picked him doesn't lesson the sting.

I'll agree w/that. I just have not agreed w/mac implying it was only the Browns who would be dumb enough to make that trade. I know he doesn't like our FO or Haslam and that is his right, but no one will ever convince me that our FO is stupid and didn't think about all the ramifications of what they were about to do.

vers...now hold it dude...I didn't spin a damn thing and you know it..

A grade school student could understand what I was questioning if they read my post. But in your excitement, you didn't take the time to read and comprehend what I wrote and now you refuse to admit, YOU SCREWED UP..!

One could argue that a year-long ban isn't the worst possible outcome (speaking pragmatically in-terms of Browns gameday roster). If he gets banned for a year, then his contract goes in limbo, and that $1mill year occurs next year. It's a small consolation when you're putting another year on everyone else, but it's a consolation nonetheless.

It's not that difficult to understand. The term "serious inquiries" about watson is the sticking point. We keep hearing some BS about how "13 teams made serious inquiries". If you didn't even get to the point where you made an offer to sign a player, you weren't serious about trying to get him. Making a call about what the asking price is isn't a "serious inquiry". I hope that helps.

And morals be damned.

Multiple teams made inquiries. At least it seems you're beginning to understand that if they didn't bother to make an offer they didn't have "serious interest". And I wonder if those who inquired to begin with chose to bow out because of the baggage associated with him?

BS! I knew you would not own up.

vers...let me walk you through the conversation..slowly...

My original post...

Quote

...just how much did those multiple teams offer Watson ? vers...I guess you are privy to sources and information that the rest of us don't have..! Maybe you can cite some sources to back up your claim above..?I really would like to know what other teams were offering Watson and maybe you can share those articles with the rest of the board members...just how much did those multiple teams offer Watson

vers...your response to my post above...

vers...you clearly failed to comprehend the subject matter I was discussing...just "how much" did those multiple teams offer Watson...

...and you went off on "your own subject" about the other teams that inquired about Watson.

Clearly you failed to grasp the subject matter I was discussing in my post and went off in a different direction...

Here was my initial comment that you challenged:



Again, five teams {Indy was eliminated because they are in the same division as Houston} agreed to pay a ton for Watson. I proved that my comment is true. You can spin it by acting like Pit and trying to change my intent, but that is what I initially said. Get your last word in, but don't you dare ask me for a link again.

You just can't keep my name out of your mouth even though you claim you blocked me. lol

How many links would you like? I've provided several over the course of these conversations showing watson demanded a trade because he didn't get a say in helping pick the new HC. You just don't like hearing it and claim only the articles you provide could possibly be true. Even though he demanded that trade at exactly the time the new HC was named.

Actually, I think you are both wrong. Watson had a "no trade clause" in his contract. No trade could have been completed without the consent of Watson and an agreement by the Texans. IND was immediately eliminated because the Texans wouldn't trade within the division. Originally, if my memory is right, the Jets and Miami were the destinations of choice by Watson. The Jets balked at the price of 3-first round picks and Miami bowed out due to the baggage Watson had and required they be settled. If you remember, Watson was hell bent on see all the cases through to "clear his name."

To say that there were 13 teams that had serious interest about Watson is stretching the truth because Watson never agreed to play for 13 select teams so it would have been a quest of futility. There were all kinds of different teams that were being thrown around as possible landing spots during the so called second round, Watson gave a list of four places that he would agree to go that was approved by the Texans. That list eventually came down to 4-teams only which were the Browns, Carolina, Atlanta and Saints. They were the only teams that agreed to the Texans asking price and be approved by Watson.

It was a double edge sword in the sweeps for Watson. The team had to meet the Texans demand for compensation and have as an approved landing spot by Watson. Saying a team is interested but wouldn't agree to the steep terms by the Texans is not a real interested team. To say they offered without Watson's approval is also a stretch as a having serious interest.

If you both remember, numerous teams were thought to be contenders but were unwilling to meet the Texans compensation demands. IMHO, saying a team showed serious interest that wouldn't meet the compensation demands or have approval from Watson as a landing spot is a serious stretch.

vers...I clearly quoted the sentence YOU WROTE and I was responding to. Here it is just below... let me refresh your memory..



So now you go adding to the quote I was responding to in an effort to spin your way out of the error you made when responding. You want to keep going, I can do that...up to you..!

And Miami backed out because watson couldn't settle all 22, at the time, lawsuits. Which provides some evidence that teams weren't willing to take on the unsettled baggage watson brought to the table.

Texans and Dolphins have Deshaun Watson deal in place – with one big problem

https://nypost.com/2021/10/27/deshaun-watson-trade-to-miami-in-place-with-one-big-catch/

Okay mac, you win. You are pulling a Pit and changing my words around to fit your agenda by stating something else completely.

So, I will concede and say that I was wrong for saying because you are not going to relent.

No, it provides evidence that one team wasn't willing to take the unsettled baggage.

And from the article-- "Watson has only waived his no-trade clause for the Dolphins so far."

Whaddya know....the power of a no-trade clause.

And the power of "I don't want his baggage" seems to hold water. It seems your theory of watson turned them all down doesn't hold water but yet you persist. Color me shocked.

Feel free to address the comment about 9 of 13 teams telling Watson and the Texans "no thanks".

Yet I have some evidence that a team did and you have zero evidence, in fact just the opposite of that claiming he in fact was the one who turned them down.

You made a positive step, even if you don't know it. You originally said "Which provides some evidence that teams weren't willing to take on the unsettled baggage watson brought to the table." Now as your above comment states, you went back to the singular w/ just one team. Bravo.

However, if I wanted to use your logic stating you have some evidence that a team didn't want him, that same report states Watson only would waive his no-trade clause for one, thus eliminating at that time 31 other teams. That's quite a bit of evidence too.

Let me know when you like to go back and seriously address that 9 of 13 and my subsequent response. If not......

...."cOloR mE sHoCkEd".

Let me know when you're willing to admit that there were only so few teams left willing to sign him because he exlcuded them by using his no trade clause. Because unlike yourself, I actually have evidence that isn't true.

What you actually have is hearsay. You weren't in the room, you aren't on staff. You have "articles" written by people that heard from people that might have been in the room.

You will fight bitterly to tell people they are wrong but YOU have no firsthand knowledge which means you have no actual evidence. No one here does.

I'd dare say you don't need firsthand knowledge to be able to prove somebody wrong, that's just silly.

I put Pit on ignore yesterday morning. Great decision on my part, but I found this part of your quote from him interesting.

When you feel the need to belittle people and be snarky your evidence should be solid. Saying he knows what happened behind closed doors with such certainty is silly.

[

Following on from this question that was asked with relatively limited response...




Zac Jackson of The Athletic has basically never said a good word about Baker. If he's not a hater he's certainly a strong Baker sceptic.... I've really not seen a balanced or neutral article from him on Baker - just my perspective.

https://theathletic.com/3376757/2022/06/27/deshaun-watson-suspension-cleveland-browns/

If find it interesting to see him say already this was a bad trade. That's truly surprising to me.

On a side note I'm in Springfield MA tonight. Eating at Max Tavern inside the basketball hall of fame building. Outside there is a statue with various quotes from various coaches. One struck me as relevant.. I don't k ow who said it now but it went something like: Sometimes it's better to be right and second than be wrong and first. Feels like the Browns did wrong and sadly we're a long way from first!

Still doesn't make the idea that you need firsthand knowledge valid.

To speculate? No, you don't. To tell people they are flat out wrong and to argue every single point, including the same level of proof someone else has? Yeah, no, you need better than just mere speculatory evidence.

Have a good evening

As fun as it is to watch this back-and-forth between Pitt and Frank... what were we actually debating in this thread, again?

Was it that nobody wanted to touch Watson at all? That's not true given that 13 teams initially inquired about Watson, and 4-5 teams were interested enough for the Texans to allow them to talk to Watson.

Was it that nobody else wanted to sell their soul for Watson like the Browns did? That's not true either. There was at least 1 other team that would've matched the Browns contract. This was reported and linked on here multiple times.

Were other teams totally undeterred by Watson's issues? Also false. Only 4 teams met the Texans trade demands out of the original 13 (and my emphasis is actually on the 13 number... a QB of his caliber that's obviously going to move and less than half the league is calling?). There was also the Dolphins... they were allegedly all set to fire on a trade and they backed out at the last minute, allegedly because of the impending civil cases that didn't have an end date at the time. It seems that the Dolphins were the only people that saw the impending ish-show and decided they wanted none of it. Kudos to them, I suppose.

And neither do they with their assertions. You are only here to fight.

Yet you still can't keep my name out of your mouth. #snowflake

That's the only team that it has been made public. But no, this entire thing started by Vers making claims that 13 teams made serious inquiries about watson. That they had shown serious interest. What we do actually know is one of the finalists in the watson sweepstakes backed out because of these legal issues. We have no idea how many teams may have weighed the risk reward factor and never considered him an option again after the initial call.

I feel anyone being objective here would have to admit the risk/reward factor was huge. In the end only four teams thought it was worth consideration to forego it and try to get him anyway. And one of those four backed out when the lawsuits couldn't be settled. What was ludicrous was claiming that 13 teams had serious interest to sign watson based on the fact 13 teams initially contacted the Texans about watson.

No team that didn't even know the price tag or where the lawsuits stood at the time had "serious interest". You can only consider something seriously when you know the cost, status and investigate a situation. Then and only then can you consider something on a serious level. Unless people think these owners and teams are total fools. There's a big difference between "let's look into this" and serious interest.

And your most witty retort is something I said... c'mon man, get yer own words and stop using mine.

I lost a lot of respect for Haslam in meddling and not being patient we had a step back season in 2021 and he panicked. We might get out of this smelling like a rose except for the bad publicity which should go away if he stays clean and more important win and win big here.

jmho

No need to. You seem to realize how stupid it sounds when someone directs it towards you. Hopefully you can learn from that.

I realize it is stupid by calling it a witty retort? Mayhaps you need a new dictionary, one with less pictures and more words.

You're only here to fight. ^ Evidence.

Only option for coming out smelling like a rose is a Super Bowl victory. Anything less, this was the biggest failure of a trade in the history of the NFL. Put the team on hold for an entire year, while crippling future years with the loss in assets. This story will be the final 10 minutes of future editions of shows featuring Cleveland failures.

It's odd that we have such a huge variation in the options too, risk big win/lose big.

Haslam hit panic mode when he saw the other Ohio team
Completely hurdle the Browns last year

I guess that is possible, but I doubt it. Giving up 3 first round picks who plays like one of the top-tier qbs for a decade or so is actually a good move. Look at all the resources teams gave up for Stafford and Wilson. Look at all the resources teams gave up for the rights to draft guys like Wentz, Goff, Lance, RGIII, etc. Minnesota gave up their entire draft for Hershel Walker. I could go on, but Watson is an excellent qb. Giving up 3 firsts for a guy who is an elite qb is actually a bargain considering how hard it is to find those guys. Now, if he screws up and goes to jail or something........then, your prediction would be proven correct.

With Stafford you made my point, Stafford has already won a Super Bowl. Wilson is going to a team that hasn't been to the playoffs in 7 years, hasn't had a winning record in 6 years and replacing a QB that is now with the Seahawks, whom are looking to replace him with Baker Mayfield.

The Browns are one year removed from the playoffs and were still in the hunt in 2021 until the second to last week of the newly extended 17 week season of going again with an injured QB playing all year long. They replaced the QB that won the first playoff game in 27 years with a guy who quit on his team, only has one playoff win to his resume, has not played in 16 months at the time of signing and very well could be 2 1/2 years when he finally re-enters the field of play.

Which brings us to the final factor.. The face of the franchise is what 30-40% of the United States population believe is a serial sex offender. Doesn't matter if he was convicted of a crime, the parts of the situation that he doesn't deny is enough for probably 20% of that demographic to stop buying gear, stop going to games, stop raising another generation of Browns fans. It hurt the franchise in ways you and I will never see, which stunts the growth moving forward. What state of mind will Deshaun Watson be in when he finally returns to live action? No one knows and it is one hell of a big risk doing what they did. The ONLY reason to make such a risky decision is a Lombardi Trophy. That is why my statement is so bold.

Okay, our views are polar to one another. That's fine.

3 years without a 1st round pick is big time especially for a team that is on the edge of dynasty. Already we are looking at the loss of acquiring Jordan Davis as a building block and for 4 + years at a very reasonable salary. In the history of the NFL that has not bode well for teams giving up 2 years let alone us at 3. You have to continue to build a team and supply it with talent. The impact players are in the first 2 rounds. Teams who miss on their first round draft picks prove to be in a hole. Here we have nothing but a miss as we gave the picks up. Its big time in building a team and at the cross roads we were at - we are giving up the opportunity to acquire a championship Defense. Throwing the ball 50 times a game does not prove out well.

When I say bad trade its not Baker vs DW one on one. I'm talking about the big picture. Not getting a full season suspension is big time in the scenario. If we do the trade goes under "bonehead"

jmho

The Rams have traded away their draft picks for years. They won last year's Super Bowl because they traded for a qb after giving up the farm for the rights to draft Goff not all that long ago. The Rams are the favorite to win the NFC again this year.

A few years ago, Tampa Bay was 7 and 9 w/a qb who turned the ball over too much. They signed Brady and won the Super Bowl the very next year. They lost last year in a thriller to the eventual SB champs are in considered in the top 3 favorites in the NFC this year.


The Times They Are A-Changin'

My sentiments exactly. It takes differing opinions to make the world go round...

I won't disagree with you on this point, but the Rams are an anomaly. They have been very good at getting players in latter rounds that have made major contributions. The first round picks have been replaced with 2nd-4th round picks that have played at a first round talent at the pro level.

Foundation players:
All Pros;
Aaron Donald, 1st round pick
Cooper Kupp, 3rd round pick

Major contributors;
Van Jefferson, 2nd round pick
Entire starting offensive line chosen in rounds 2-5
Tyler Higbee round 4
David Long round 3
Jordan Fuller round 6
Nick Scott round 7
Greg Gaines round 4

All of these players were contributing prior to Stafford coming in.

Now they will ask even more of Cam Akers round 2, Earnest Jones round 3, Darrell Henderson round 3, to contribute more as starters and major relief players.

Not many teams have that kind of starting power at t the level the Rams play at, found in the later rounds. They are either lucky, or have one of the best scouting departments in the business.

Hopefully we have that kind also, but we are relying on a lot more 1st rounders to bring our level of play close to the Rams.
5 of our starters are 1st round draft picks, of the rest of the 22 starters, only 9 are Browns draft picks compared to 14 on the Rams. Of those 9, 5 are from the 2nd round and 2 are from the 3rd. That means the Browns have found 2 players in the draft in rounds 4-7 worthy of starting. I'm not sure we have the same scouting department as the Rams.

Teams have to work with the tools they have. Just because one team was successful doing it one way, doesn't mean that is easy to emulate.

Oh... and we had another 1st rounder on the team that has been starting for the last 4 years...He was replaced by the guy we are now discussing. Ability wise, good move. Watson is a obvious upgrade, availability is a whole other story and availability goes a long way toward ability. We will see. Maybe the judge will give him no suspension and those that don't care about the sexual misconduct might see success in using a person like him to gain that success. Others will still follow the team, but with much less enthusiasm, while others will be gone completely. Not because of their love of the Browns is gone, but because the way the ownership chose to run the team overpowered their ability to morally support them.

I agree w/you that the Rams had players contributing before Stafford came in. Hell, Tampa Bay was the same way. They had a good D. Their WRs and OL were good.

What was missing? A top-tier QB.

The Browns are in a similar situation. They have an excellent roster and had an inferior qb. They boldly made the move to acquire a top-tier QB just like the Rams and Bucs did. Denver is doing the same thing. The NFL has evolved to a point where you are not winning w/out an elite QB. I understand Watson's baggage, but securing him for the long haul is vital to this organization's success.

j/c

Does anyone else find it funny how those who have sworn that building through the draft for years, sometimes decades have suddenly turned into sell the farm guys? Or how much they advocated that you get your QB through the draft because those huge QB contracts keep you handcuffed from a salary cap aspect for years are suddenly saying handcuff us?

Their entire philosophy just changed on a dime.

IIRC, the 'go get a QB' mandate comes before/above 'build through the draft'.

That's in no way the picture people painted before. They were saying that once you signed a QB to such a huge contract it would take up so much of the salary cap it would be next to impossible to keep a quality team together for the long haul. And they were right.

True, but I highly doubt anyone predicted a top5 QB becoming available prior to him hitting his prime. I just wanted to point out that 'build through the draft' and 'get a QB' were 2 separate points of emphasis, with the QB one seemingly prioritized higher.

Yes, you build through the draft. At some point you have to stop building and start attacking the prize, getting a ring.

We've built, now you fix the spots that need fixing in FA. No one ever said you can't use free agents.

You build, the window opens, you fix your weakness. That's the whole path. Nothing new.

It's kinda hard to follow the conversation, but we already have built through the draft. Our team is loaded w/talented players. We did not have a top-tier qb. We traded for one because he became available. It's not complicated.

And it won't be complicated to see how we won't have nearly as talented a roster a few years down the road. Because as has been pointed out, Berry writes contacts that escalate over time. Each year it will cost more and more to keep this team together as watson continues to eat more and more cap space.

Part of Berry's job is to spend to the limit of control then control then keep the whole thing in check.

It will be interesting to see if and how he can make that happen.

You can always refer back to the beginning of the offseason posts (i don't mean this as a snarky comment). This was talked about during that time.

- The salary cap keeps going up with a big boost in the next couple years.

- Look at this year, a big portion of the league were over the cap. There were a crazy amount of restructures compared to previous years (this is one reason of many why people's minds change on a dime). Also to that point, when that time comes there will be restructuring of their contract that will benefit the player in getting a large sum all at once and also an out for the team so the cap hit will be minimal.

- you said a "few years" down the road, what do you consider a few years? Chubb is 26, a few years down the road he will be considered an old running back (ugh, I don't even want to think about that). Players will get older, they will be cut for various reasons (decline in play, younger guy shows more promise, etc). Some of our players who we consider top players now, won't be considered that in a few years.

I understand your point. But things change, and they change almost year to year in the NFL. Regarding your focus on QBs, I hate to use generalizations, but we all want a franchise QB. I would be surprised if I was wrong with that statement.

DW has consistently been one of the top QBs every year since he's been in the league. My opinion at the beginning of the offseason, was to trade down gain more picks and trade up for one or the best QB in next years supposedly strong QB draft. I know this is just my projection, but I would expect our pick was going to be at 10 or later in the first round. So giving up a few future first rounders or more was plausible to me to get up to the top 3 of the draft.

We have a lot of great talent and some of the top talent at key positions. Now is the time to get that franchise QB. That's why I would've traded up for Stroud, Bryce or whoever. Those first rounders are valuable, but a consistently top of the line QB is even more valuable. A top of the line QB will always give you a higher percentage chance of making the playoffs and/or making the SB. Instead of having a mid-tier QB and hoping all the pieces around him play to their level in able to win games or a playoff. Name any of the top tier QBs in the league (Rogers, Mahomes, etc) I would gladly give up three first rounders for any of them. The difference between getting Stroud, Bryce, etc compared to DW - is DW has consistently shown every year to be a top level QB in the league. The drafted QB "may" be a hit or miss. He might be the next Mahomes or he might be the next Sam Darnold. With the talent we have now, I would rather have the known entity then hoping they turn into the known entity.

Once we traded for DW my mindset changed. The Browns got that franchise QB that we all want. Speaking football only, mission accomplished.

The way i see it is Watson is one of the 1st rounds, so IMo we gave up 2 1st rounders. I don't think it will be all that crushing.

I ranked the top QBs not too long ago. I put them in tiers. My top tier included in no particular order: J. Allen, Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, Burrow, Herbert, and Watson. The second tier just below the top tier was Lamar, Stafford, and R. Wilson. I don't think many people who know the game would debate too much w/that top 10. I don't think many would debate the top 7. Some might throw a Lamar in there. Maybe Stafford. However, there is a bit of a drop off w/the second tier guys.

So, let's look at a few things:


--In 2012, the Redskins sent three first-round picks and a second-round pick to the Rams to draft RGIII.

--In 2016, the Rams gave the Titans 2 first round choices, 2 more in the second, and 2 more in the third.

--That same year, the Eagles gave the Browns 2 first round choices, 1 second, 1 third, and 1 fourth.

--Last year, the Rams gave the Lions 2 first round choices, a 3rd, and Goff.

--This year, Denver gave the Seahawks 2 first rounders, 2 seconds, Drew Lock, Noah Fant [a young top TE,] and DT Shelby Harris.

Clearly, Watson is the best qb of the bunch. He is also younger than both Stafford and Wilson.

The Browns have an excellent roster and now they have a top-tier qb who can lead the team for a decade or so.

It was a trade well worth making.

Agreed. If we can get by this suspension, whatever it may be, we might be set up well for the next few years. I said this might blow up in our faces and it still may, at least at first, but after we get through it, we may be in good shape.

Home,

I agree with you. And just like you I'm sure, I want this to be a great year. But to keep on the optimistic side of what I've read. If DW is suspended for the whole year (this is if it's the whole year) we can roll over a lot of cap savings.

article
If this article is true, then not only do we get DW back next year. We also have a great amount of rolled over cap money to play with in free agency and any contracts needing re-signed. While we just locked up a bunch of our key players this past offseason.

I read the article. I hope it's true. One more observation I'd like to make. If DW gets suspended for a year, he wouldn't have played in 2 years. Okay, that will be true. DW has gotten a few injuries because of how he plays, scrambling and whatever. He may be rusty but that should quickly wear off. He hasn't forgotten how to play. Secondly, it will give him plenty of time to heal, if he hasn't already, not to mention it will be 2 years of wear and tear his body will avoid. I think in the long hall that will make a big difference with his longevity. JMO

I don't really disagree with you on much of what you stated. I simply question how much continuity we can keep the way these contracts all actually seem to be structured. It's not as if they gradually increase as the salary cap increases. Instead their costs skyrocket in very short order.

Or you can look at it this way, by the time Watson's contract kicks in, he will be down the list on QB contracts. If he gets a full year suspension, his contract tolls. So the $1M salary will be the 2023 season. So, his big money won't kick in until 2024.

Current cap hits:
2022 $10,028,000
2023 $54,993,000
2024 $54,993,000
2025 $54,993,000
2026 $54,993,000

If the contract tolls:
2022 $8,993,000
2023 $10,028,000
2024 $54,993,000
2025 $54,993,000
2026 $54,993,000
2027 $46,000,000

Over that same time span, the salary cap is supposed to increase between 8-10% per season. Adding approx. $17-20M in 2023, $18-21M in 2024... Which means, by 2025, the salary cap increase is paying for Watson's salary+. So really they just need to concentrate on kicking the contracts down the road until 2026, when the cap increase helps with the other contracts besides Watson's.

I was going to reply to the discussion but you stated precisely what I was going to write.

It was all about timing.

After four years and investing in a quarterback with the first pick. Haslam and company came to conclusion. These are my words. But, it is what I believe they came to decide.

Baker took them as far as he could. They could continue with him on a year to year basis and hope to win it all.

The team roster was in position to win now. Their best players were in their prime now. In three to five years changes would come. They understood that there are no guarantees when acquiring or drafting players. They knew the team was to good to be in the draft lottery for a top college quarterback. In addition it takes a few years to be ready and drafting is far from a sure thing.

Watson cleared the grand jury with no indictment. Rarely if ever does a team get the chance to land a 26 year old top five quarterback. They measured the risk. Three number ones are worth a 26 year old quarterback like DW if you have the team behind him to win now.

This next point is pure speculation. Haslam could very well been assured by Goodell that DW would not get a full year. Goodell works for the owners. If Robinson were to say a year. Goodell could say half a year. I do not think it is over the top to believe that Haslam and Goodell spoke.

You can never guarantee a SB. But DW on this Browns team gives them a good shot at winning something they have not won.

In regards to DW off field. Again I am writing what I believe to be the thought process of Haslam. "It will blow over." It will take some time and it will be unpleasant at first. But over time we will rehab the DW reputation. He will be our quarterback and he will win. People are forgiving. People also move on. Haslam was willing to lose those that would hold a hard line and hope winning will draw more.

Time will tell if Haslam's risk was right.

Possibly, but I don't think it will matter a whole lot. Any additions to longevity would be on the back end of the career, and IMO wear and tear isn't the only factor that slows a persons play. It might not even be a factor since Watson hasn't had any significant injuries that I know of. Father time is the X factor in all of that. It'd not like you can bubble wrap a 25 year old, bring him out 10 years later and have a 35 year old playing like a 25 year old.

Anybody who has reached that "I can't or better not do that anymore" moment knows what I am talking about. It usually happens when you are around 31 or so.

Mine happened when I was around that age. I was up on the roof doing something and didn't want to go back to the other side to the ladder. I jumped off garage roofs all the time when I was young. We made it a game. Well, this time it didn't feel all that good. I was OK, but it dawned on me that "I better not do that anymore".

j/c:

I don't think the loss of picks is all that big of a problem as compared to what we gain.

As it stands now, we are down two 1st rounders. i don't think the loss of picks hurt us this year.

The league is transitioning a bit in that many of the top teams have favored going for free agents or trades v having top picks. Obviously there is a balance in there where you don't want to be like Allen's Redskins, but with the projected salary cap going up, i think we can live with a top free agent signing for the next year or two in place of a 1st round rookie.

We are still a young team. If we use our 2nd and 3rd round picks wisely, we can still build for the near future retirements, such as Bitonio, and even then i don't think he is all that close. We will be back in the 1st round by the time that happens.

When you are in that 3-5 year window teams rely less on rookies and go all out with proven vet players. Our window is open. Time to move on that and think more in the short term and less on the long term.

I find it amazing to read how people who swore by "you build through the draft" since what seems like forever have suddenly changed their tunes as soon as the Browns do the opposite. Just an observation.

I still feel that way. We have done that.

Now we had a chance to get a major upgrade at QB added to a stacked team.

Like I said, once you get in to that Super bowl window you sometimes make the moves to maximize that window, and that doesn't always mean you draft rookies.

I am amazed at how you always try to make something out of nothing.

Actually it isn't making something out of nothing. There was a huge shift in what people said for decades before the watson trade compared to what they said right after the watson trade. I appreciate your explanation for your shifting position however. I hope it all works out the way you hope it does.

The one thing I am hoping through all this season is that Jimmy Haslam is patient. I'm predicting a ceiling of 6- 8 wins and a last place finish. I hope I'm wrong. That's not what I want to see happen, but you have to be realistic. Mr. Haslam has to realize it's not a "normal" season for us with DW sitting the first 11 games. We don't need anyone fired namely KS or AB. I hope Jacoby lights it up and plays well but without DW it's not a true assessment of our team. My 2 cents.

6-8 wins? With the roster we have, even without Watson, if they only win 6 games, everyone should be fired

IrishDawg, this is a brilliant post! You have explained well why the DW trade was so “risky” or as I would say stupid. I know no one here cares what I think since I was not born a browns fan and my grandfather did not cheer for Jim Brown. But I have a couple of close “born and raised” Browns fans, they have both gotten rid of their Browns gear and are deciding what new team to “adopt.” Neither were Baker fans, they just can’t stomach rooting for a team that they felt had sold their soul to the devil, nor can they look at their daughters in the face and explain why they are a fan of DW after reading about him #####ing on young women faces.

This situation is so sad. I enjoyed the underdog role my four years as a Browns fan, there was even something to be proud of in rooting for a team that was 1-31, in that it proves the resilience and faithfulness of you as a fan. That is all gone now, even a Super Bowl with DW, would be hollow and soulless.

Cleveland against the world? Yes, and deservedly so.

I might not agree that everyone should be fired, but no doubt 6 wins should at minimum put someone, or two, on the hot seat.

I think maybe in the front office as well.

I think Berry has done a great job on the whole. That said we do seem to have a few weak areas. I am not sure if the problem is with scouting, the manner in which we scout positions, or just bad picks. For some reason we do a great job of scouting backs and defensive backfield players. We are weak at scouting defensive line and wide receivers.

I don't know what we have to do to beef up our ability to scout or select players from those two position groups, but we need to do something to improve the scouting of those positions. We just seem to keep selecting miss after miss, with fairly high picks. I will say that the addition of Bell this year might break that trend at the receiver position.

I understand that when you use 3rd and 4th rounders you usually aren't going to get sure thing, all-pro players, but that is also high enough you should be able to find decent starters at least a good percentage of the time. We aren't even doing that.

Those are areas we need to figure out.

I hope the fans don't start the fire mantra again. The media picks up on it and then there is more discussion about such things than any other. Firing people has been a huge detriment to this franchise. Stay the course.

Many of us around here Did cheer for Jim Brown, and watched him play. The reason nobody cares what you think is because your a Baker fan, NOT a Browns fan. You don't just wake up one day and say I'm going to be a Browns fan, then four years later wake up and say gee I'm not a Browns fan anymore. That is the mark of a bandwagon fan. Not a true fan which you never were.

Then what exactly do you get out of posting here?

Sometimes the mantra that rises is a result of a call for accountability. Though I'm in agreement with the notion that the lack of continuity has hurt the Browns in the past, ignoring what has transpired since October 2021 to a playoff team cannot be ignored and if a 6-win season follows that there should be serious questions with the leadership.

So, what is the foundation that some of those questions would generate from:
1. Sharp Football Analysis, 2022 NFL Offensive Line Rankings by Unit, Browns ranked 1st
2. Sharp Football Analysis, 2022 NFL Running Backs Rankings by Unit, Browns ranked 1st
3. Sharp Football Analysis, 2022 NFL Defensive Front Seven by Unit, Browns ranked 6th
4. Sharp Football Analysis, 2022 NFL Defensive Secondary Rankings by Unit, Browns ranked 4th
5. 3-years continuity FO and Coaches
6. Over 290M invested in the improved new QB room in 2022
7. 49.206M Cap Space Availability in 2022

If it was any other team in the league, what would be the expectations for a team that possessed all the proceeding?

2020 record 11-5, 2021 record 8-9 - is a continued regression acceptable on any level for the FO or coaches knowing the foundation the team possesses?

Where is the line of accountability drawn in 2022 for results or is "potential" the new mantra for team, FO, and coaches now and in the future?

If the Browns win 8 or less games in 2022, is the 2-year downward spiral deemed acceptable for the FO and coaches or is accountability only looked at when everything is perfect?

IMHO, 2022 will tell a lot about accountability or meeting expectations of the FO and the coaches. What exactly is the break point after a 2-year downward spiral?

That's not a fire mantra, it's an accountability/expectation mantra - as it should be.

What was the Sharp Football Analysis, 2022 NFL QB Rankings by Unit, ranking?

Seems to me that the Browns defined what was holding them back and decided to rectify that situation.

First of all, the rankings are 2022 projections not 2021 results. Second of all, the 2022 NFL Quarterback Rankings by Unit, the Browns were rated 14th and the rating took into account Watson's uncertain availability due to suspension. Even with that, breaking into the top 10 in 2022 would be suspect at best.

QUARTERBACK RANKINGS by UNIT
Rank____Team__________Score

1. Kansas City 97
2 Green Bay Packers 90
2 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 90
4 Los Angeles Chargers 89
5 Buffalo Bills 86
6 Los Angeles Rams 78
6 Balitmore Ravens 78
8 Cincinnati Bengals 75
9 Dallas Cowboys 73
10 Denver Broncos 69

14 Cleveland Browns 53

Are you effing kidding me?

" 2 year Downward spiral." What? 2020 is that part of the spiral?

Go back to last year and look hard. Go back and watch the games we lost. Then come back and tell us how and why.

I will help:

Mon 1/3 against the Steelers Baker's numbers
16 for 38, 185 yds., 42% comp. 2 td's 2 ints. QBR rating 16

12/25 - against the Green Bay, Baker's numbers
21 for 36, 222 yds. 58% comp. 2 td's 4 ints. QBR rating 35.2

11/28 - against the Ravens Baker's numbers
18 for 37, 247 yds. 48.7 % comp. 1 td QBR rating 38.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is only three games look at the others. We were 8-9

Understanding the reasons behind losing games is important. The front office and coaches bear some responsiblity but so do the players.

We have good coaches. We have good schemes. Andrew Berry has built a competitive roster.

Go back before Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry. Talk about roster building and continuity and explain how well the Browns were doing.

"You'll never know what you're holding
Till it starts slipping away,"

I supported Baker. I liked him. I wanted him to win a championship in Cleveland in the worse way.

I wanted him to rub **** into the faces of his critics like Bart Scott.

Haslam, Berry and Stefanski were right about moving on from Baker. He was not good enough.

His record against teams with a winning record: 7-21

Chew on that for awhile and tell me how do you expect to win a championship in the AFC with the quarterbacks in this conference?

We will soon see - Baker has had an extremely short time with the Panthers to learn the playbook and gel with the team. for most of that time he was splitting reps in a QB competition. He's on a team universally regarded as one of the bottom feeders. He's playing his first game against a top defense with very good DB's and a good pass rush. If he's as bad as you now think he is - then this game won't be close and the Browns will be running out the clock in the 3rd Q onwards. If some of the other factors truly impacted Baker's play - number of HC and OC - playing on a 1-31 team - injury - new mechanics at the start of 2020 .... well maybe the game will be closer. I think Baker is a top 15 QB in the NFL when healthy.... I think he's got the potential to be better but the good thing is, while we root for the Browns, we get to see how it plays out.

QB records are not a real stat.

For example, Watson has a career record of 7-19 against teams with a winning record and was 0-9 against teams with a winning record in 2020.

We all know Watson is a top tier QB.


https://sportsandfitnessdigest.com/deshaun-watson-record-against-winning-teams/

I have no plan to drive down the Baker highway.

I really liked Baker. I appreciate what he did in Cleveland. I will always thank him for giving everything he had. I will never forget the playoff win against the Steelers in Heinz field. Never. One of the truly great days for me in football.

I wish him well with the Panthers. I hope he balls out.

However, I totally understand why he is no longer a Brown.

I understand your point and it is valid.

However, there is more to it as well. When you deep dive into the Baker numbers inside his record against winning teams.

You find failure of making big plays at key moments.

And the record is what it is.

And the fact remains he is not in the class of the top quarterbacks in the AFC alone.

Look inside DW numbers for 2020. Was he the reason for their record?

You made my point about evaluating QBs.

QB records are not a real stat. It goes much deeper.

The flip side to that was the Chiefs and Chargers games. We lost those and Baker and the O absolutely TORCHED those defenses.

Except when it mattered.

The point was the 8-9 record and "two years of spiraling downward."

We didn't spiral downward. In 2020 we won a playoff game.

In 2021 we were 8-9 and we were a couple of plays away from making the playoffs with a damaged and ineffective quarterback.

Now people are talking about a "wasted season" and FO and coaching accountability. What a crock.

We have not even played a stinking game this year.

This is an emotional response. It's akin to internet crying because your team traded your favorite player. I probably acted this way when the team dumped Bernie.

There's a good chance Baker plays well against us and maybe for the season. The Panthers have low expectations. Baker thrives and plays loose with low expectations. He's going to come out juiced for game 1 and let it rip. If he has success early in the game, I can see that carrying the Panthers toward a win. And we have, well, we have a journeyman backup as our starter. But it won't change the fact that Baker wasn't a long term solution here or anywhere. The only thing that will change that is a long second year contract from someone.

The defense really needs to show up this season for the Browns to have a chance game in and game out. I don't have confidence they will. We need dogs. I don't think we have enough of those.

Don't forget about those missed FG's and dropped passes he had too ! He was probably at fault for not calling the illegal hit on the last play too. Sorry - couldn't help myself! Lots of angles and opinions from all - all covered previously.

The 2022 injury was rectified too. And it wasn't the Browns that rectified it, it was a surgeon. But let's ignore that part of it. Yeah, they rectified it. Brissett is the starter for 11 games.

No.... but by all means, you go ahead and believe that if it helps with your emotional responses to the team and what happens this season. All good.

He moved the team like 7 yds in 1:15 against the Chargers. No dropped passes or missed FGs during that drive.

Another emotional response.

In hindsight, MAYBE you're right with the Chiefs game. Still, we put up 29 points and scored a TD in the 4th.

The Chargers game is not debatable, IMO. We put up 42 point, 22 of which occurred in the second half. Chargers hung 20'some on us in the 4th quarter. That's not an offense-problem.


My overall point was that the O started hot before major injuries started hitting early and often (Baker and the Oline, in particular). Injuries had started taking their toll by the time the D had finally found its footing.

I agree with your overall point here.

j/c:

All I know is that I personally support Stefanski and our Front Office. I was not a fan of either, but they earned my approval. I'm secure enough to change my opinion on things when the facts dictate that the opinion should change.

Bonefish, relax and take a pill buddy. The post was a hypothetical as to what happens if the Browns only win 6 games this year. Spin it anyway you want, if the Browns go from 11-5 in 2020 to 8-9 in 2021 to 6-11 in 2022 with the talent the Browns possess, IMHO - that's a downward spiral. We can say it was all Baker's fault in 2021 and all Brissett's fault in 2022 but the constant that remains is the Browns have had a top tier OL, top tier Defense, top tier RB tandem, and money to burn but also the same FO and coaches that are supposed to put a winning product on the field with the assets they possess. Coaches and the FO's don't get extensions because of potential. If that were the case, it'd be impossible to fire any coach or FO.

From a football perspective, I do too. But I don't think they somehow get a pass because the QB they went after won't be available for most of the season. Not least of which because they knew he'd be suspended from the jump. AB and KS are the ones responsible for constructing the roster AND how they're used on Sundays. KS has a talented enough roster to AT LEAST match the win total from last year. So long as injuries aren't a complete ish-show like they were last year, we should do better as well.

All that said, I don't think KS's seat is hot. If we have a disappointing season (which would be 2 in a row), then I think it makes sense to start talking about seat temperature going into next year.

JMO.

After which he made excuses why it's quite possible Baker would play well and the Browns lose to the Panthers. You couldn't make that crap up if you tried.

Here's the bottom line. The Browns are weaker on the O Line. The C position is a huge question mark. People seem to dismiss that. We have exactly one WR who may demand a double team and that depends on how good the opponents #1 CB is. Otherwise nobody has yet shown they deserve that type of attention. Sure they have a great running game but teams know they need to concentrate on the run.

Lamb was the Cowboys #1 WR last year and Cooper was relegated to the #2 WR spot. Even as the #2 WR Cooper caught for 250 yards less than he did in 2021 and over 300 yards less than he caught for in 2019. That's not a good trend. The Browns signed Njoku to a huge contract extension while stat wise he certainly hasn't lived up to his athletic potential. So will year 6 be a breakout year for him? People need to ask themselves, does it usually take 6 years for an NFL TE to breakout at their position?

The Browns are weaker at the DT position as well. Opening up the oppositions running game up the middle even more than last year. Then there's the hope that when watson does come back he will be the same watson everyone saw in 2020 after not having played in an NFL game since January 3rd of 2021.

It is true the Browns haven't played a game yet. It is true they could be just fine. But the stars will have to align just perfect for that to happen. Winning 6-8 games is far more of a realistic expectation than many are willing to admit.

It's crazy to think when your team scores 29 and even 42 points people can blame the offense for the loss. Not surprising, just crazy.

Obviously, evaluating front offices and coaches is a very subjective process, especially when fans are doing the evaluating.

I guess I can understand why some people won't give them a pass this year, but I don't look at this situation as a one-year window. In my opinion, they had almost absolutely no shot of obtaining a true top-tier QB and they somehow pulled it off. Of course, the consequences for doing so has led to a barrage of attacks from countless sources. They had to know it was coming and they still had the guts to get the deal done. I think the moves will pay off in the long run and I think that Watson will be the qb for a long, long time. I think having a qb of that caliber gives you a chance for prolonged success. Thus, it's not one year for me. I actually applaud them for admitting they didn't have the right guy and having the guts to dump even though he was a very popular figure w/the fans and local media. They went all in despite knowing they would get beat up by those who loved the previous qb and by those who are repulsed by Watson.

Again, these are just my opinions and I am not asking anyone to agree. I don't want to get into an argument about it. Just voicing my own personal opinion.

Three 1st downs and 21 yards, including a 10 yard dart to Njoku on that drive before two INC's to DPJ and Higgins and the failed Hail Mary attempt from our own 46.

DPJ was bracketed in double coverage and the ball was thrown to where he just needed to keep running hard to get under it, but he slowed up a little while tracking it instead of continuing at full speed.
The throw to Higgins was a bit high, but was thrown to be beyond the defender, between Higgins and the sideline, leading him toward the sideline. Not the best throw, but probably not the best effort by Higgins, either.
The Hail Mary is what it is... those are, at best, a 10% chance of success.


Video on YouTube

I think the question becomes "under whose orders"? I don't think the coaching staff had any impact on bringing watson here. They had no part of the investigation, negotiations or any other part of the process that brought him here. As it pertains to the FO, we just don't know what part they played in it. I'm sure that if Haslam asked them to study the analytics of watson being the Browns QB the answer they gave was a positive one. Watson is definitely a huge upgrade on the field. So if that was the extent of their input on the decision to bring him here it was an easy one. But did they have a say or were they asked what the impact would be from a PR standpoint and how severe the ramifications would be off the field? I don't think anyone outside of the group in the FO and Halslam know for sure.

Once the decision was made it's obvious watson didn't want to come here because he said so. I don't think it took some stroke of brilliance to offer him a kings ransom to make him an offer he couldn't refuse to change his mind. We know Haslam endorsed the entire thing because he signed the check. Outside of that we have no idea what went on behind the scenes.

Nope - but you go ahead and troll.

I left out the parts where our offense controlled ToP by almost a full quarter (36+ minutes to 23 minutes) and where that entire final sequence was set up by Schwartz fielding a kick-off at the 3 yard line and then only getting out to the 14. That was followed by two bad runs by Hunt and an incompletion to Higgins before Gillan failed to even punt past the 50, giving them the ball in our territory where the defense then chose to surrender a TD in just 31 seconds.

Spin?

Why frame your post of a downward spiral on a hypothetical season?

You have consistently spun about the FO and coaching. Cherry picking stats from the Vikings.

You are not fooling me. I don't need any pills.

If you dislike KS and Berry fine. That is your opinion. No problema.

I disagree. This season I have no expectations. But for sure before a game is played in a seventeen game season. I am not going to be taliking about who should be held accountable "if we were to win only six games."

How about watching the games then looking at results?

Well, that doesn't really work for anybody on here.

I'm sure we will have the annual prediction thread like we do every year. I mean that's what people talk about every year about this time. Maybe we should wait until the season is over to predict how we think the season will play out?

KS was on the plane and was a big part of their "pitch" to Watson. FWIW, I highly doubt KS had a gun to his head for that (both literally and figuratively). Just my assumption, obviously.

I'm sure if Haslam told him to he was. That's how things work. As both you and I have seemed to suggest, we really have no idea what went down behind the scenes.