Last week Titans owner Amy Adams fired GM John Robinson
She was willing to eat the remaining years of his contract.
The Tirans were defeated in the playoffs last year.
Then last week defeated by the Bengals again.

Robinson hit on some draft picks but he gave horrible
Contracts to guys like Julio Jones, Vic Beasly and Jadevon
Clowney. He traded his 2nd best weapon on offense
To the Eagles.

Steve Keim in Arizona is failing as a GM. The Cards will miss
The playoffs again under his leadership

Now back to Andrew Berry. The Browns will miss
The playoffs again with him as GM.
Where has he shown in his NFL front office career
That he made a team better?
Is his feet on his desk now and he is saying
" the future is bright"
It's funny he hasn't said much to the media as of
Late. He needs to be worried about his job
His drafts are void of difference makers.
He gave up the farm to get a QB who never took
The Texans to the SB.

From the owner to the waterboy, all should be fired!

Maybe u need to go over some numbers
I'm sure the analytic numbers would show ...
guardrails mean you only get 20 year old players in the first round
and a player 2 inches longer in reach must be better than one who can actually play well
I mean
analytics
right? I mean,
......
We have players who don't do touchdown dances, even when they score
and,
I'd bet one of the two Owners was put off by the TD celebrations of past years
and didn't want anymore of that on the team,
...
by the way, I mean, a player is a player right? I mean,
if they are both in the NFL, it doesn't matter which one eventually ends up on your team
get over it, I mean, fans will get over it,
fans will take what we give them, maybe? Is that the thinking?

Be a fan, Be happy. Be happy with the 3rd and 4th round pic choices of the last 4 plus years
...
and take more of it.

It’s legitimate question. Results don’t lie.

Are this roster better than our team from 2020? I’m not so sure.

Berry has four more opportunities to show what kind of GM he is.

You know the Browns beat the titans in 2020,
and where was Andrew Berry then? I think he was the Browns GM, so, obviously we should ignore everything that has happened since
besides... look at how shiny the off season is going to be.
I'm sure the newspaper reporters can put a shiny finish on whatever spin the organization forces them to endorse.

Wheee, be a fan, be a Browns fan, we can't wait until, ... This Year.

That question should be presented to Berry. He's been the GM for 3 years and last I checked, it has been his responsibility to improve the team each and every year. If the thought is that Berry has improved the team, then that means there's been a failure somewhere else since the team has gotten worse each year. So, who's responsible for the regression of the team from the HC on up? However, if Berry has failed in his job to improve the team each year, then it's time he is held accountable for his failures.

The best players from this team are From the Dorsey years.
Garrett was a Sashi pick. But anybody that follows football
Could have drafted Garrett. None of Berry's draft picks
Are setting the league on fire. Too many of his draft
Choices are wait and see. Look at the team the Browns
Played today. Duke Tobin has nailed some draft picks
That's how they got to the SB and are probably playoff
Bound this year. Yet the Bengals got laughed at for a
Small scouting department.well it's working .

Fire Kevin Stefanski, fire Joe Woods, fire AVP, fire Preiffer, fire Andrew Berry, and
FIRE PAUL DEPODESTA.

Do it now before this lasts any longer. Stop wasting time.

A lot of it is common sense and general competence.

The Browns are more like..."if winds are blowing out of the southeast at less than 15 mph and we are on the road and it's the second half of the season and we are playing a team with an animal as mascot, the waffle house sheet says there is a 50.01% chance that a hail Mary is the way to go"...

I've said this all year, while its easy to point at the chef's, if you're shopping at Aldi's for ingredients, its going to be hard to make a michelin star meal. Berry has taken this team and set them back. Gave ward 100million to get beat like a drum week in and week out. Given extension to Teller/chubb are no brainers, any idiot can do that and would have. I think for this thing to move forward, you have to rid yourself of Depo and Berry. Get a guy like Arians or Payton and let them build your FO and coaching staffs. Proven winners.. Where has Berry or Depo every been winners at where they were direct responsible for the results. Same goes for our coaching staff.. One, Callahan. We are mired in mediocrity and we are at a critical point in this organization where we have a window to get where we need to. Nothing about this staff says they can do it. It sucks but its the reality.. No other staff has been given this kind of time with these kind of results. Time to move on

I think we definitely need something to change. I’m not a “fire them” type guy, but we need something to shake up.

What's this? You gotta be kidding me. All of you will be singing his praises next year and won't remember a thing that happened in the long term other than Berry got you, DW. Y'all will be building him a statue, according to some.

Some of us knew early on this was a throw-away year. Others argued we had a chance. Brissett made me start believing we had a chance. But it wasn't in the cards, and that brings me back to where I started, thinking this season would be a waste, and it was. I'm good with that and hope DW plays to his potential next year, and we ride him right into the playoffs. But I don't see anybody being fired this year, with the possible exception of Woods. I'm pretty sure the FO took their best shot, knowing this year that the high percentage odds were it would be a throw-away year. If they're good with that to get Watson, they most likely expected we would be too. At least, that was probably their thinking. And really, all teams catch flack in the offseason in some way. So they're used to it in the FO.

I sure hope next year is everything it has the potential to be, regardless of who is or isn't here.

If the organization is serious with the accountability then some of them has to go.

Either Berry show some leadership and fire most of his coaching staff and that includes Kevin Stefanski. He needs to send a message that those who underperform season after season has no place in this organization. It’s probably unfair to label Ski as a failure but it’s either him or Berry himself.

The other option is to keep our HC and fire Andrew Berry and Depo. Give Stefanski another season with Watson but make other changes in our coaching staff.

The Browns breathes mediocrity from top to bottom and that includes local journalists, a few YouTubers and some of our supporters. After every loss all we hear is excuses and bla bla bla. It’s like a mantra of finding explanations for everything and nothing. Sometimes the answer is simple. Some has it other not.

Ask yourself if you think Andrew Berry and Depo has was it takes to turn this around.
It’s either those two or our coaches.

Doing the same thing over and over again and expect changes is for fools.

Berry has a body of work in the draft, and it isn't pretty. How many years is he supposed to get?

He definitely will get 1 more. Watson is rusty and that will be gone next year

The Broens brass knew this year was a throw away as soon as he was suspended for the longer sentence.

AB and the rest of the staff have to aggressively work on acquiring players to strengthen our weaknesses whether it be a trade, the draft or FA. If we see they are not trying to get DT's a LB a WR etc. then we can expect more of the same next year. And we can't afford to have our D play lousy until the 8th game anymore. Something has to be done with Joe Woods. I don't like to see people get fired but we can't have that happen a 3rd year in a row. With our D playing well from game 1 this year our record would be reversed or possibly better. It sickens me to have to talk about this every year except the one year a decade we make the playoffs. I'd like to be on this forum every year talking about our playoff scenarios.

What kind of GM and HC says to themselves that the season is a "throw away" when a player is suspended or injured weeks before the first game of the season is even played? If that idea was even assumed to be thought by this HC and FO, then they all need to be fired. What you're saying is that no one in the FO or the coaching staff will assume any responsibility for this season results because it was just a throw away campaign that was acceptable to the owner. I read this BS on the forum, and I think to myself, these same people question my team loyalty, yet they are willing acceptors of the excuse that it was a just another throw away season? What if Watson gets hurt in the first game next year - is that going to be just another throw away season? What if it's Chubb, or Bitonio and Teller, Cooper or a Garrett - will that give everybody another free pass again because it was just another throw away season? When is somebody going to be accountable for the actual results of a team that was deemed a playoff contender the last 2-years and disappointed? Last year was a throw away season because the Browns had an injured QB that played like crap and was never benched. Berry, the HC, and FO decided to fix that problem. This year, it's another throw away season because the Browns franchise QB that they "KNEW," I repeat "KNEW," was going to be suspended back in March anywhere from 4-17 games and wouldn't be able to play gave them the right to classify 2022 as just another "Throw Away Season" before a single game had been played? What will next year's excuse be because I'm confident that it's already being thought up!

Last year, the Browns finished up with 3 less wins and 4 more losses than the 2020 playoff team. In 2022, the Browns must win 3 of their final 4 games (with 3 of those games against playoff contenders) to even meet last year's crappy record. Right now, that is not looking to be a very likely scenario. Think about this people, there are only 2 teams in the entire AFC with less wins than the Browns (Houston & Indpls). It's so disgusting that the bottom dweller Jets and Lions both have more wins than the Browns currently and the continually rebuilding Jaguars, who have had the top pick in the draft 2-years running, have just as many wins as the Browns. With that, people are accepting the excuse that this was just a throw away season with no one to be held accountable and everything will be great because next year we will finally be Super Bowl contenders - not without some serious changes from the top down the Browns won't.

I wish that ^ would fit in my signature.

A lot of very valid football points made. Be nice to have a discussion about them instead of simply being called a Fabulous Baker Fanboy and discussion dismissed.

I think the reality is no matter how damning the reality of the last two years, KS is going to get a year with Watson. No matter what this year folks are going to simy say DW is knocking off the rust. Next year the pressure should be on the team week 1 to make a very deep play off run, no excuses.

He will be if the Watson trade doesn't work out and the Browns don't make the playoffs next season. His seat should at least be warm.

I am not sure if it was this thread or another, but Stefanski will get to next year, but he won't get out with a slow start.

I wouldn't go so far as to say a deep playoff run, or even the playoffs for that matter, at least at this point. While you say no excuses, I think you are smart enough to know there might be legit reasons why the playoffs might not be made or a deep run not realistic.

How, precisely, will it magically be gone?

He's been here since March. He had all of the minicamps, voluntary practices, all of training camp, and preseason. He has all the money in the world to bring in a few out of work WRs to work on his passing. so balls don't end up in the dirt.
He had exactly the same amount of offseason as he will have coming up.... so, which part of it will be the magic difference?

JC

Also, how does anybody know that Berry isn't on a hot seat? Nobody knows what kind of conversations are being conducted in private.

Because of the well-choreographed effort by the front office, with help from the media and the talking heads, to the well-publicized "feud" between Baker and OBJ in which OBJ was declared the clear winner.. all has led to the singular conclusion that the biggest problem, dare I say the ONLY problem, with the Browns for the last 2 years, was Baker Mayfield. So until Berry and Stefanski fail with a different QB of their choosing, they will continue to avoid scrutiny.

This is true within the organization... but among the talking heads and those who get paid to stir up crap, nobody is casting any blame at all for the Browns failings toward either Berry or Stefanski.

Yes, there are some things that could happen that impact "deep play off run - no excuses".... But they are slim and few.

Purple and DC (in addition to Steve) have hit nails on heads with their comments. Personally I think 3rd "live, full speed" game is going to tell us an awful lot about the ability of Watson and his ability to take 2 years off and come back and be elite. And Stefanski's and Berry's career's rest on Watson starting 2023 as an elite QB and the Browns winning and going to the play offs. "We have to play better and I have to coach better" is not going to fly next year for ANYONE. It doesn't fly for a whole lot of us now.

Excuses were made totally for not having an elite QB in 2021. Excuses in 2022 (according to this thread) are based on not having the elite QB, again. The FO and HC has had (by the start of next season) 3-years to identify any weak spots, develop top of the line backups, and address those weak spots all before the start of next season. Anyone laying the groundwork to keep this FO/HC and still try to maintain an out for another season of regression as having a legit reason is laughable. If the Bengals can go from 4 wins in 2020 to the Super Bowl in 2021 to the playoffs again in 2022 starting with less talent than the Browns had in 2020, then it is inexcusable for the Browns ownership to except anything less than a strong playoff run in 2023. The NFL is and always has been about winning, period. No other franchise in the NFL has a team with the playoff potential that the Browns have that has failed miserably 2 straight years in a row with people still saying the FO/HC should be retained due to the team's potential. I noticed that San Francisco lost not only their starting QB but their backup to season ending injuries and they are still winning and fighting for not only a playoff spot but the division crown. The NYJets have spent most of the year without their starter either due to injury or performance and are now playing their 3rd team QB and have 2 more wins than the Browns. It's time to hold someone accountable for their results.

I don't think KS or AB are going anywhere as of now and I don't think they should. However, with DW here right from the 1st game next year and upgrades made to weak positions, hopefully, there is no excuse next year for this team to be considered a legit playoff contender and win a couple of playoff games barring a plethora of injuries. No EXCUSES next year!

It's weird to be a team's message board where those who support the team are chastised and those that trash the team because they chose one player over the team dominate the conversations and they all pat each other on the back about how smart they are.

I have no way of knowing for sure, by the talk of the town down here is that there was more going on behind the scene than is being told.

Any successful organization needs a winner at some level. Some teams have the needed winning mentality on two three maybe all levels. It could be one or several player, coaches or the GM.

KCC has GM Brett Veach and HC Andy Reid. Star QB P Mahones and star TE T Kelce. All proven winners who delivers year after year without excuses.
Buffalo Bills has GM Brandon Beane and HC Sean McDermott. Star QB Josh Allen and star WR Stefon Diggs. All performing at expectation year after year without excuses.
Tampa Bay Buccaneers had luck and got star QB Tom Brady fallen from the sky and viola(french), guess what, they won a SB. No excuses whatsoever. one season and Boom.

I can go on but my point is who’s our guy who can elevate us to the next level?

Is Andrew Berry a man who knows how to build a SB winning team? After 3 seasons as a GM where is the signs he’s an elite GM?

Kev Stefanski. One acceptable season (2020) and almost two seasons of failure. (2021 and soon 2022) I accept he’s a decent play caller but is he good enough to transform the Browns to be a serial winning team who get to the play off year after year? Any evidence from his previous years or just wishful thinking?

QB DeShaun Mr Happy Ending Watson. Our $230m guy who according to a few experts on this forum can walk on water. (cough cough…no needs for name) Having excellent stats is one thing but to take your team to the SB is a different animal. Any evidence from his earlier career that’s he’s that winner or do we just rely on his stats and hope for the best? I mean is a guy who’s lying to a judge and has a suspicious track record dealing with women someone who has what it takes? It’s a legitimate question because at the top it’s full storm when you get there.

Who in our organization has that precious winning mentality that transform this team to go from talented to actual winners.

This is 100% not true.

I don't understand this whole conversation.

Nobody knows the scrutiny Berry faces behind closed doors.

Every GM lives in the hot seat... it's part of the job description.

It's almost as if some fans want a media narrative (which will only complicate the team's current issues) to verify their own bias.

Like, you'll feel smarter if the media jumps on a "fire Berry!" narrative?

Bizarre.

If Andrew Berry is on the hot seat..the entire Harvard cabal should be on notice, too.

I agree. It's weird to be on a Browns message, being a Browns fan, while stating facts about the current players, yet be attacked as a Baker fan boy for the simple reason I don't BASH Baker, 24 times a day.

Weird.

Hey, you know it IS possible to be a Browns fan and at the same time not hate the qb that isn't here, right?

Preiffer lost us 2 games with ST bungles, Stefanski lost us 1 (Jets), some people blame Woods, but either way it was coaching. Why would you fire the GM?

Look at his draft picks

As far as Berry goes, look no further than his DT selection. In 2021, the Browns had the worst defensive interior line in the entire NFL. Berry went out and replaced both the DT's during the off season. Fast forward to 13 games into the 2022 season and Berry's recruits at DT are dead last in the NFL, again. How about waiving Chase McLaughlin? In 2021, McLaughlin made 71.4% of his FG's and 97.3% of his extra points. The Browns (Berry) decided to draft Cade York in the 4th round to shore up the kicking issues. Fast forward to 2022 and 13 weeks complete and York has made 76.9% of his FG's a slight improvement over McLaughlin 2021 and 93.3% of his Extra points. Meanwhile, Mclaughlin moved on to the Colts where he has made 81.5% of his FG's and 100% of his extra points - both of which is better than what his replacement York is performing in Cleveland. Can you say, 'Another swing and a miss by Berry!"

12 wins to 5
Your fired don't bother to pack I am calling a moving truck

I get it. And I will admit I might be a part of the "now" crowd if the team implodes these next several games. A teams team finish is important. At least for me it isn't totally predicated on winning. It is about how you win and how you lose that make the difference.

Another factor Haslam has to consider is would having Stefanski going in to next season on the "Hot Seat" be better than just starting over at seasons end?


If we do start slow and a change is made after say 5 games, the season is over then. I am hard pressed to recall a time where a coach is replaced and his interem took over and had significant improvements. Maybe it was here with Williams for Freddie? My point is the odds are another season is gone.

I still think that Stefanski with a new DC is what is needed, but when I think about it in those terms, I may walk back some earlier thoughts and say that Stefanski may not be as secure as previously stated

I still think he stays. As I have said for a month or so, I think Jim Leohnard would be an excellent DC. He has turned the Wisconsin D in to one of the top D's in college football. He played in the NFL for 10-12 years, the last few here in Cleveland. I think he could step right in, have cred with the players, he may have been a teammate with a few, and turn this D around.

When we boil all of this down, I am still left with feeling the D was the big problem this year. Make the changes there and this season is much different.

The problem with Woods being the scapegoat is that the HC isn't taking any responsibility. Just last night in the NE/ARI game, the announcers said it multiple times how Belichick is involved in all phases of his team's game. Yes, he has coordinators that are running the offense, defense, and special teams but when he sees a problem - he jumps right in there to fix the issue. The Browns have a HC that is so focused on his play calling that anything else that happens on the field is missed and he basically has to be told about what happened. This team is so sad at times that if the defense can't be blamed the ST's get the hit - and still no HC accountability. Yet when the Bengals hold the best RB in football to 34 yds rushing (2.4 yds per carry) behind what continues to be claimed the best OL in football, nearly a peep is made about accountability on the OC/HC Stefanski.

Just one other thing that I just don't understand. The Browns drafted York in the 4th round in 2022. To put that in perspective, York is only the 3rd kicker since 2011 to be drafted before the 5th round or later. The other two: Aguayo by TBB in the 2nd round in 2016 and only played the one year and Alex Henery by PHI in 2011 in the 4th round who's been out of football since 2015. If you're going to jump out on a limb like that and draft a kicker so much earlier than what normal franchises do, why the heck wouldn't you put your highly drafted kicker out there to kick a 60 plus yard FG with only 3 seconds left in the half? The probability of hitting the Hail Mary Pass was only 9.7%. Consider this: In the last 10 years, kickers are 18-of-66 from 60-plus — 27.2 percent. That percentage rises to 38.1 for games played in stadiums with a roof, either fixed or retractable. It drops to 22.2 percent — 10-of-45 in stadiums that are open-air, like Paycor Stadium. If the Browns are supposed to be a team driven by analytics, why didn't Stefanski attempt the 60 yard plus FG? The percentages say "kick" and you went out on a limb t draft the big leg kicker earlier than normal - WHY DIDN'T THE BROWNS ATTEMPT THE FG? Oh wait, analytics only apply when we want them to apply to the decision-making process.

The excuses...I'm so tired of the crap excuses this "bunch" falls back on to justify their failure to produce.

Haslam will need to open that checkbook a bit further to retain our best coaches and convince top free agents that they should bust their ass to help the Browns win something in 2023.

Jobs should be on the line from this point forward and those in charge should be feeling the heat...enough with the lame excuses.

It's crazy isn't it. 90% of the posters in this thread were/are Baker fans. Heck, you have Purp claiming Watson shouldn't have rust after two years off because he had money to hire receivers to throw with him at a park while he wasn't playing (I almost spit out my drink when I read that), then you have mgh patting him on the back telling him he's hitting nails on heads. The best outcome for most of these fans is the Browns fail because they got rid of a guy who didn't work, who didn't improve, and rubbed their faces in his constant immaturity. Losing games is heaven for these guys so they can come here and pat each other on the back with the most ridiculous takes ever. Even DC, who used to bring a level of intelligence and maturity to the party, has lost his mind with one ridiculous take.after another.

The issue with the Browns is they don't prioritize winning. They have a culture where losing and mediocrity is not only expected, it is accepted. They have a culture where a coach feels comfortable enough to call a 30 yd fade route on 4th and 1 by bringing in his backup QB who hadnt thrown a pass or taken a snap in the game, then after it fails give the reason in his presser that he wanted TDs even though a low risk short yardage play that would have given him a first would have also kept a TD alive. A coach that feels comfortable enough to make that call in a must win game and give that reason is symptomatic of the bigger problem. It was a losing call and a losing play, but he didn't care. He didnt prioritize winning because his organization doesnt prioritize winning. Until that changes, and it likely never will under Haslam, not much will change.

I think your summation of Purples Point was a just a little out of context and omitted the point he was replying to.



While also completely ignoring points made by Steve and DC .... but that'd be par for the course when it comes to things "Baker" which this isn't about. But hey, it's very convenient to sweep everything you can't debate under the "Fabulous Baker Boys" label. Well Done.

The crazy thing is that Stefanski is the only guy who masked most of Baker's weaknesses and tailored the offense to his strengths. Stefanski is the one guy who the Fabulous Baker Boys should love. They don't and they blame him--along w/a plethora of others--for Bakers failures.

peen, you are an intelligent man and typically a fair-minded poster. You go off the rails on a couple of guys [Ward] at times, but otherwise you are a very objective poster. Thus, I ask why do you get sucked in by guys w/an agenda that is fueled by spite and has little to no merit? Who the hell are they to tell others--and especially the Browns--what is going to fly and what is not? Those guys are short in the intelligence department and they are just fans w/loud mouths.

Q: How many of them actually even have season tickets?
A: None.

Q: What say do they have?
A: NONE!

Ok. This made me spit up my coffee.

LOL-----I know it sounds whacked. But, my point is what say do they have in what the Browns do w/their hiring and firing. It's not like any of these guys support the team in any way.

????????????????

this team has regressed in many ways over the last 2 years. Many statements hold true week in & week out. A discussion about an underperforming team is not going to be very bright.

Vers you are guilty of chastising more than anyone else period. Because some are disappointed in results and have open dialogue about said shortcomings is not trashing a team. The fact that you are so bothered by those that question the poor choices that have this team as an AFC bottom feeder is confusing. As if you are the only one who can question any move this franchise makes.

At this point in his run, I take it you feel AB has done a great job?

I have asked the question point blank on the KS thread, only to get the run around from you. I feel the same excuse is what you will use here. And that is to forget the last 3 years, the Browns now have a franchise QB and he will show everyone how great the HC & GM are when he gets us to the SB.

VERS everyone on this board wants that to happen. but there has been very evidence that this works out. & if there is no SB appearance in the next 3-4 years, this deal was a failure.

There is an opportunity to right the ship. This will take DW playing at a higher level than he has yet to show with his 1 career playoff win. AB hitting on a much higher % of draft picks, this without a 1st round pick. As well as paying the correct FA's to come in and be a contributor for 17 games. On top of these 2 key pieces KS has to take a huge step up on being a better overall leader of this team.

But shame on me for investing the same time and energy only to trust my eyes and question the direction of this franchise.

J/c

I think it’s impossible for us to know because we don’t know the various levels to the Watson deal. Which individuals really pushed for the deal? Did AB show some hesitation? Did Haslam make the call all himself?

A few things.

--You are grossly mistaken about the chastising thing. I had guys on ignore for months and they replied to me multiple times daily. I am not the one who calls people male and female body parts. Please!

--I get that the team is disappointing this year. I get that it should be be a big conversation point. But, it's like the only talking point. And you get labeled a Stefanski fan boy if you don't agree he should be fired. Balance is not a bad thing.

--I also don't think my opinion on who should be fired or retained matters in the slightest. I am not the owner. I'm not a shareholder. I'm a common fan. My opinion doesn't matter when it comes to the employment of others.

--I don't begrudge you for having an alternative opinion. I like Stefanski, but I respect your opinion. Thus far, you haven't resorted to insults and telling lies about what I have said. We disagree. I don't feel you should agree w/my takes. We should all be able to have our opinions w/out being attacked.

--What is your question again? Is it that I think the Browns will get to a SB now that they have Watson? If so, my answer is that I don't know. There are no guarantees. I do think that you need an excellent qb in today's NFL, especially in a conference features a ton of young, stud qbs. Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Lamar. I think Watson gives us a chance, but that's all it is. A chance. Personally, I don't tell my team what will "fly" and what won't "fly." I love football and watch it to be entertained. The Browns are my favorite team and I root hard for them. I don't let the outcome of a "game" that I am not a part of affect my life. If it comes to the point--and I was close a few times during the Sashi years--that they disgust me so badly, I will simply quit watching them. I don't feel I have the right to tell them who to fire or employ. Hope that helps.

You guys both sound butthurt. Someone pee in your Froot Loops this morning? Geez.



People call you male and female body parts?? Did you wake up feeling androgynous?

I still don’t understand why Berry don’t take control of a negative situation where coaches publicly gets called out and our results are way below expectations. Yesterday Ski sounded like a defeated man that was low on energy and without answers. The whole organization seems to be swimming in self pity and nobody seems mentally strong enough to take command.

Where’s the leadership? Who is steering this ship at the moment?

A competent GM take action before the train has left station. Just waiting for Watson to take the organization out of this misery isn’t how you run a franchise at this level.

It seems you missed last Thursday's game. If what you're claiming is true, McVay did a great job of masking Baker's weaknesses as well. So you must be the leader of the Anti Baker Boys.

Says a guy who questions everyone else, who thinks he knows everything football and also doesn't have season tickets. For a guy who doesn't have season tickets himself you sure think having season tickets is the only way someone's opinion should be valued. Is this your way of telling yourself to STH up? And the fact that you claim anyone who disagrees with you lacks intelligence speaks volumes about your own.

Vers really?

1) I don't know about the people parts thing you're referring too but there's no person on this forum that calls people names more than you do.

2) If you think the team has been disappointing you have a heck of way showing that by attacking anyone who is even slightly critical of the Browns. Buddy, you are the biggest hypocrite born to man to try a make a statement of being labeled something like a "Stefanski Man" because you support the guy. I got to tell you, that's the most childish thing I've ever seen posted on this forum - with your record of attacking anyone who says anything positive about Mayfield is actually complaining about being called a "Stefanski Man" because you support him, and it should be balanced - YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FREAKING KIDDING ME!

3) For a guy who states his opinion doesn't matter when it comes to employment of others, you sure have a lot of posts stating that opinion.

How odd. YOU label anyone that doesn't hate Baker as a "Baker fan boy". Ironic.
So, you're not a season ticket holder, cause if you were, it would matter...........how? Lies huh? You don't lie all the time? You even called me a Baker fan boy that doesn't support the team.

Well, I have season tickets and don't have any real say. I do get surveys from the team, so they know how I feel. I was pretty pointed on the last one I received a few weeks ago.

I am not being sucked in by anyone. I think you know I can stand pretty firm in my opinion when I think I am right.

In this case, I do put weight in how the team finishes. As I said before, unlike what many people seem to indicate, I don't put the weight on wins and losses. Teams can play well in a loss and not so well when they win.

I do think there is a chance that Haslam might decide he would rather take the chance on a new coaching staff rather than go with Stefanski and wait to see if we start strong. Making the move mid season would be a disaster IMO.

Like I said either in this thread or another, my choice is to keep Stefanski and replace Woods. If Preifer goes, so be it, I don't have a strong opinion on that. If anybody is hurt by poor talent, it would be him. ST coaches always get the left overs.

I do understand there is a group who tend to try to talk louder than everybody else and once crossed, or perceived to have been, pick at everything.

I could be wrong, but I think Stefanski retains his job. There is no reason to fire him other than fans complaining. Of course, Haslam has fired guys before, so one never knows.

I guess my biggest point was regarding phrases like "........isn't going to fly" and "there will be no excuses." What the hell do those phrases even mean? What are they going to do if the team doesn't win next year? Storm the HQ at Berea? Burn down the stadium? I guess they could go root for another team, but that would be too good to be true.

First, we'll have to read your constant posting that it's the "Baker Boyz' fault. Then we'll have to listen to you saying it's all the trainer's fault because he had to difficult a training session for the players. Then we'll hear about how good a coach Stefanski is and the only thing we're missing is an elite DT again and 2024 will be the Browns year.

Contrary to your Stefanski Boy belief, the reason to fire Stefanski is he has never finished higher than 3rd place in the AFC North with a loaded roster that has gotten progressively worse each year. That's grounds for any HC to be dismissed from his duties. Add to it that Stefanski has been nothing more than a gloried OC and that's clear reasons to terminate his employment with the Cleveland Browns, like it or not.

The reason questions has to be asked is repeatedly bad results. If the team reach the play off every third season it’s statistically on par with normality. That’s must be the starting point when we discuss keeping or sacking our GM or HC.

That's a damn lie. Stop. Our current record shows just how much Baker hurt this team. He didn't because it sucked more without him. And unless DW gets it together next year and lives up to the hype, we'll be blowing it all up again. Genius moves to trash Baker to get the predator. And you think this FO and coaching staff don't deserve the vitriol? You must like seeing the browns fail.

I promise to remind you of your Captain McRapey fetish every time you mention Baker. Let's GO!

Kevin Stefanski is an administrator. He's not a leader of men. He plans the schedule, keeps the players up to date on what's going on, etc. The biggest fallacy on this board is his success year 1 was more impressive because of covid. It was less impressive because of covid. The team needed an administrator that year to navigate the unique circumstances. They needed a planner, a logistics guy, someone to keep the team up to date. When things got back to normal his inability to lead grown men, his inability to prioritize winning is now coming home to roost. Sterfanski has squandered an amazing opportunity coaching a team of really talented players. And what does he do to show his appreciation...11-6, 8-9, 5-12.

Thanks Kev. You the man.

I don't think this will be against the rules????

For the record, I had season tickets since the early '80s and sold them in 2017 when I saw that we were deliberately trying to lose. It's worth noting that I had a drive of 13 hours in 2006-2007 and a 9 hour drive starting in 2008 until the time I sold the tickets for good. Like you, I did not go to each home game every years. I would typically go to 4 games and give the remaining 4 games to family/friends.

They're actually rather self explanatory.


Well there is now a precedent set for something like that to happen.


Yes only blind followers who try to use magic dust and illusions to paint a beautiful portrait should be here. When the team you follow is stinking up the joint nobody should have enough passion in their veins to get upset and frustrated. Only blind followers need apply. Everyone else can go to hell. Right?

So the answer is no, you don't have season tickets. Thanks.

I recall gifting you a hat that I got w/my season tickets somewhere around 2015 or so. You're welcome.

I still have it. Thanks. How does that change the fact you claimed only season ticket holders opinions mattered and you're not a season ticket holder?

I never said that "only season ticket holders" matter. The point is that what can y'all do when you make idle threats to the Browns organization? I was thinking that you could quit paying for season tickets and that could hurt the team, but you can't do that if you don't already have them. What else do you have to hold over their heads? Nothing. Absolutely nothing!

This team could lose the remaining 4 games of the season and I think both Stefanski and Berry will be fine....as much as that opinion undoubtedly chaps many an ass here to read.

Berry and Stefanski are tied to Watson's production. This structure will be given a full offseason including a free agency period (where Watson simply being on the roster, among others, will attract players), perhaps some other coaching adjustments, and any roster tweaks. If Watson struggles in 2023, they are most likely gone.

Your hate fueled insanity certainly doesn't read that way. I mean take a look at it. You insult anyone with a differing opinion than your own and even question Peen's ability to think for himself when he doesn't walk lock step with what you think. There is a reason you take so much grief and it's self inflicted.

Right.

I agree with your post. I've posted a while ago that it's only right that KS gets to work with DW and AB should have another year to see how things work out with DW. KS had to work with an injured Baker and then a career back-up in Jacoby although JB played well. Give them a chance with a top QB like Watson. IF it's more of the same next year then changes should be made. JMO

I agree with you and Memphis...I don't like it...but I agree. steve has very deftly described (more than once) the issue with Ski's tendencies that IN THE PAST could logically be seen as not being symbiotic with Watson and his skillset. In addition, we have built a running team...and now have an elite QB who himself is not afraid to take off and run...if not predisposed to do so.

I don't think Ski has really ever found his way as a HC - and I get that such is debatable. My concern is that he will need to reinvent himself as the OC if we are to create schemes that fit a throwing offense vs a running one. I don't think he has that in him.

Berry will 100% be back. Stefanski will be back as well unless Watson looks completely atrocious in these final four exhibition games. Wins and losses will have no bearing on Stefanski returning. This season has always been about seeing how they incorporate Watson.

Anyone being honest with themselves knows this season was over after the losses to the Jets, Chargers and Patriots. The Browns were never winning the division and the results of the other games ruined any shot at a wild card game due to tiebreakers. The Miami loss was the final blow.

Here is what took place in the meeting with Watson during the courting process and why Stefanski will be given a full year to work with and coach Watson.

From The Athletic...

Most of the rest of the meeting was devoted to Stefanski and Watson. The Browns didn’t want to bore Watson with some PowerPoint presentation, and they weren’t sure what type of equipment would be available to them at Hardin’s offices, so Stefanski brought an iPad loaded with film clips. The Browns cut up all of Watson’s RPOs from the 2019 and 2020 seasons and organized them by what the Texans did most and areas where Watson excelled. Stefanski sat the iPad between the two of them and showed a play the Browns ran and then followed it with a clip of Watson doing the same thing with the Texans. Stefanski ran the clicker and the two talked football for nearly an hour while no one else in the room could see the screen or what they were discussing.

Watson told Stefanski he wanted to be coached hard, that he’ll never get offended by coaching. He asked Stefanski if he saw anything Watson could work on, and Stefanski rattled off a list of a few items, including doing a better job of carrying out his fakes. Watson laughed and said Stefanski sounded like Watson’s 10th-grade coach, who always got on him for that kind of thing.

Unless Haslam completely goes rogue (it's not impossible) the Browns are not going to blow it all up because of what was, in all likelihood, a lost season once the suspension became 11 games. Had the suspension been four or six games and Stefanski had Watson for thirteen or eleven games to really evaluate how the two worked together, then I believe a more compelling argument could made for moving on from Stefanski.

The coach and QB relationship is the most important aspect to a successful franchise and Stefanski will get a full year and will not be canned after trying work Watson into a system beginning week 12 while juggling Brissett's reps during Watson's early return.

Joe Woods will be gone. I say Priefer is 50/50, but I think he survives.

The pressure to win will be ratcheted up entering 2023 and if early losses mount there is a real possibility Stefanski will be canned mid-season and we'll have another lost season on our hands.

That's a good post.

Personally, I think Watson will excel in Stefanski's offense. As many other football guys [Burns, Cossell, etc] have said, this is a very QB friendly offense. Much like Shanahan's. I do think we will see more RPOs and formations out of the Pistol next year than we have/will this season. But, like most of the offenses in the Shanahan/Kubiak tree, the offense has a ton of building blocks, where one play is but a prequel for comes later, much like how a pawn is sacrificed for major moves that come later on.

I think locking up Pocic, securing a decent RT, and getting one more WR to add to the mix are much more important to the success of the Brown's offense than changing the Head Coach and/or the GM. I better clarify the RT addition. I always liked Conklin and he was one of the very top RTs in the entire league. However, his play has really declined this year, especially the last few weeks. Not sure if his body is wearing out or not? It will be important for the FO to determine just how healthy he will be next year and if he warrants a new contract. It would be great if that works out, but we'll need a RT if Conklin can't fully recover physically and is worth the amount of money he will ask for.

I, like you, think Priefer survives. I, like you, think Woods is gone.

And I really like the info about Stefanski and Watson, but we all need to keep in mind, even with the connection they had, Watson still ruled the Browns out initially (allegedly). Alledgedly meaning, that's what was reported at the time. Maybe they were never really out? Who knows, but the guaranteed money seems to have had a legit influence. I hope the connection is true because that could really be something special and something we've lacked for a loooooong time.

It's also worth noting that Haslam extended DePodesta's contract in 2020 to align with the five year contracts that were given to Berry and Stefanski in that same year.

Blowing it all up now and Haslam is on the hook paying for two years without any possible ROI. This is another reason everyone will very likely be back for 2023 season.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story...ed-5-year-contract-extension/5441030001/

Great point.

And then there is this re: the decision to choose Cleveland (moments ago):



¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I, like most think Stefanski is back next year. But as far as the reasoning that Haslam wouldn't fire any of them because he would have to pay them for not being here I really don't buy into that as a viable reason. History has shown he doesn't seem to care about paying people that aren't here when it pertains to HC, their staffs and FO people. If he gets to the point he thinks it's time t move on, he moves on.

I just don't think that time is now.

From the same article....

Of all the finalists, Watson knew the Browns roster was the best fit and gave him the best opportunity to win right away, but Mulugheta told him he had to start eliminating teams and coming to a decision. Watson was still hung up on going to a location where he hadn’t spent much time and his only experience involved awful weather.

Cleveland was the first team eliminated. Watson, however, almost immediately had reservations about his decision.

Mulugheta called Berry on Thursday and told him they weren’t getting Watson, but Berry remained persistent. He called Mulugheta back Thursday night to discuss another one of his clients, and at the end of the call turned it back to Watson. He asked what the Browns could’ve done better or differently, then reiterated the team remained interested in him.


Enter the $230M fully guaranteed contract to seal deal.

Yep. At the end of the day it was Mo Money!

Does not really matter.
Next year Berry drafts the next Emerson we still finish last in defense
We need stud front 7 not Elliott Tua We need studs.
The problems are going nowhere Pocic walks because he will get a contract
North of Bitiono
Conklin will get a huge offer from new York or maybe Cincinnati.
This is the price of signing Leshaun

In addition to what you've posted, the Browns have 4 years of cap charges on Clooney, 2 more years of cap charges on Conklin, and 2 more years on Hunt of cap charges should they all decide to leave. That's about 6.1M per year for those guys to be playing somewhere else. This is the bag of carry over money the Browns are creating by putting large portions of players' salaries in prorated bonuses. Take Watson for example, there was much to do about Watson only making 1.035M in salary in 2022 because they moved it all to a prorated bonus. That takes what most think is just a base salary for Watson the next four years of 46M per season to a cap charge of 54.993M per season due to the prorated bonus.

I've also heard and even read where the Browns might prorate all of Watson's salary again in 2023. If they do that, his cap charge for 2024 would spike to 63.986M for years 3-5.

I didn't feel as though he questioned that.

I didn't. Not even close. In fact, you are one of the guys whose mind I do respect. Very much so.

I keep reading that Stefanski should get another year or deserves another year. He doesn't deserve anything. No one has done less with more.

11-5, 8-9, 5-12


I'm trying to understand how that equates to being deserving of anything. Not to mention the numerous on field issues we watch on a weekly basis. I'm surprised more people aren't scared to death about another year with Stefanski. Imagine this...January starts an 8 month clock to next season. By October the Browns will be 2-5 or 3-4. Now we are looking forward to September 2024. That's not appealing to me at all.

Listening to the Carman podcast and he had Ruiter on there, consensus surrounding the team is that Stefanski is def. on a hot seat with the continued regression but also Berry is as well.. The feeling is Berry was given an abundance of draft capital and hasn't drafted an impact player, a couple of ok guys and a bunch of JAGs. Not sure how much to read into that, but it is coming from a guy closer to the team than us here on a board.

Here is why there is an extremely strong chance Stefanski will be back.

A large part of the sales pitch to bring Watson here was him working with Stefanski and how Stefanski could design an offense best suited to elevate Watson's game. This will not be decided in six games. Watson would have to look like he did in the game against HOU the rest of the way for it to be clear Watson and Stefanski are not a fit.

You have said many times the most important recipe for success for a franchise is the QB and HC followed by the GM. If Watson continues to show signs of improvement and the offense comes to life, the Browns will not blow it up and will give it next year to further evolve. Finding the right HC and QB to pair together could be argued is most difficult thing to get right for any organization. That is another reason that if Stefanski and Watson are working well together it will be given another year. The bad play calls, clock mismanagement, staffing issues, etc., can all be fixed far more easily than finding the right HC/QB combo.

There is going to be just as much pressure on Berry this offseason to fix the areas on defense that were neglected or they were overconfident in as it will be for Stefanski to keep the offense humming along. There will likely be a new DC and that will be on Stefanski to make sure he hires the right guy this time.

Stefanski was able to get the absolute max out of both Mayfield and Brissett. These are not good QBs. Why would the Browns not want to see what he can do with a full year and offseason with what is presumed to be a top 5 or top 7 QB? Why throw that potential away because we're living in the moment now and upset about some on the field play calls, situational management, etc.?

If Stefanski is fired, who's hire the next HC? DePo and Berry? You're going to end up with Stefanski 2.0. Are Haslam and J-Dubs swinging the hammer and hiring the next HC after DePo would have presumably got the Stefanski hire wrong? Haslam netted you High School Mike and Hue Jackson the last time.

Is there a chance that if/when Stefanski is brought back that it fails and next year is another wasted season? Absolutely, it's the Cleveland Browns, I half expect it.

Is there more uncertainty with firing Stefanski, hiring a new HC and installing a completely new offense for Watson and expecting immediate success? How would Watson feel about this? After all, it was what Stefanski presented to him during the courtship that had Watson wide-eyed about playing for the Browns. Will we be calling for the new HC head if they do not make the playoffs? It would be another wasted season after all.

j/c:

I don't think it's fair to list the Browns record this year as 5 and 12. Could it happen? Sure, but I doubt it.

I want both Berry and Stefanski to return, so I hope this won't be taken out of context. It seems to me that some of the roster decisions made by Berry are more questionable than Stefanski's coaching. I get that folks will disagree, but I don't think it's even a good debate.

I want to be clear in that I want both Berry and Stefanski to return. I don't want yet another upheaval of the roster. I don't want to hear how the new guys need time for a year or two and then repeat the entire procedure over again. The Browns have been caught on The Merry Go Round of Misery that never goes anywhere and just spins aimlessly around and around while they keep bringing in new people who "will get this thing turned around."

Stick w/the plan for once.

Then maybe you could explain this part....


It's obvious he is saying you aren't thinking for yourself and are being influenced instead by what others think. It's obvious no matter his denial to the contrary.

I'm pretty sure that Stefanski and Berry will be back in 2023 and Browns fans will gobble down whatever PR stuff the Haslam media machine chooses to feed them during the off-season and I expect Browns fans to be pumped when practice starts next summer. That's just what Browns fans do...

That said, Stefanski will to perform some serious self examination of his 2022 performance as the Browns HC and OC...and that might lead to some changes to the offensive coaching staff, with more of the offensive load being handed over to Van Pelt. If that change does not happen, I wouldn't be surprised if Van Pelt chooses to leave the Browns rather than play backup OC to Stefanski for another year.

I do believe the temperature of that 'hot seat' will be higher than ever, from the beginning of the season as most Browns fans expect 2023 to be THE YEAR the team finally has a legitimate shot to challenge for SB win.

Expectations will be higher than ever and I expect everyone from Haslam on down to feel the pressure. How the owner and his management boys conduct their business during the off season will give Browns fans an idea of just how seriously those in charge are taking their responsibilities in 2023.

NO EXCUSES...

This is a very reasonable take, and I think a lot of people who are looking at this objectively would agree. I could even be swayed to buy into this.

But my gut just tells me something different. It tells me it doesn't matter how much time Stefanski gets, it's not going to get better. I'm trusting what I'm seeing and feeling over what is a very reasonable take.

I don't want to be right. I hope I am wrong (but I rarely ever am).

I’m growing concerned about our draft picks of late too. Not much jumps off the screen. Couple that with the disregard of defensive areas of need and it’s a recipe for a struggling team

I hope Milk is right above ^. My concern is if he's not right - and the pattern isn't favorable - AND your post there ^. There is not much of ANYTHING right now that is promising about this team and Org.

He have a lot of holes and pending-holes with no 1st Rd pick for two more drafts and a team with ONE chip to lure free agents - other than money. It feels like we are staving off a rebuild while needing a lot of upgrades while missing the 1st Rd picks and success-to-build-on that makes us an attractive destination.

Well they did buy a QB so there's that.

Downside we have 23 free agents with about 1.25-1.5 mill to spend on each and we are out of rollover cash.

j/c

I think Berry is on the "hot seat". I think they all are. Not as in there job is in danger, just that there are some issues that need to be reviewed and discussed in detail. When "year end review" comes around I think each member of the coaching staff and FO will have some areas of responsibility that will be looked at as having been a struggle this year - in Berry's case it's a whole body of work of every draft class and free agent period he has overseen. Looking at Berry's draft picks - there are slim pickings for impact players. Looking at free agents maybe he has been more successful?

The only guy I think will actually lose his job no matter what is Joe Woods - it's been a pattern in previous years of his tenure where the D starts off slow and improves after the half way point of the season. I don't know if every team is playing at their best early in the season, but playing badly before turning around after more than 8 games have been played probably isn't going to keep most coaches in place. We can talk about the scheme and a lack of the required DT's to play the scheme Woods wants to employ - but a total lack of adjustment to suit the talent available is a factor. Berry's role in not having those DT's is one more reason he is end of year evaluation might have pointed and some of his decisions examined thoroughly.

Good post.

GM is such a "damned if you do" position in the NFL. You have to solve all previous problems, anticipate new ones before they happen, have an answer for every injury, and somehow come out ahead in the win column... or your job is in serious jeopardy. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

If the Browns want to be a SB contender it starts with
Showing Berry the door.
Berry isn't any different than the other 364 GM failures
That came before him in Berea. Talks a good game. That's
About it. Hire a GM who has never Been a GM before.
Learn on the job. Fail. Repeat.

Not for the faint of heart but for $3.3 million per year I think most of us could grow a thick skin. I think one thing Berry has done exceedingly well is manage the cap ... allowing the Browns to sign a guy like Watson who has the potential to be a difference maker and make the Browns a legit contender if other pieces fall into place .... but you can't just be a numbers/cap guy as the GM.

I think Berry's drafts have been a bit disappointing, but he has done a very good job overall. He did get us an elite qb when it seemed we were doomed to never having one. That can't be discounted. He's smartly extended several key guys like Teller, Bitonio, Hunt, Njoku, etc. While he has missed on some draft picks like Phillips, Delpit, and Elliot, he has also made nice picks w/Newsome and Emerson. Signing Pocic was a very good move. Trading for Cooper was an excellent move.

It's best to keep the key guys in the organization together. I am so tired of fans thinking firing everyone is the smart thing to do. It isn't. Roster reconstructions, changing the culture, hollow promises, shallow excitement, followed by more disappointment. Then, start the process over again.

The continuity factor is always a tricky factor. As you mention extending players, I'm sure Andrew Berry isn't the only guy in the room negotiating long term deals. It doesn't take a genius to extend
Contracts of proven talent. Anybody on this board would have enough sense
To extend Bitonio, Teller and Njoku.
Draft wise Berry has failed to draft impact players.Drafting core talent
Is a how you a pave a road to playoff contention year
In , year out. Compare Berry's drafts history to the other GMs in
The North in that time period. He is 4th out of 4.
When was the last time the Browns had the best GM in the North?
Even if the Browns get to the playoffs in 2023...is that enough reason
To keep him around ?

I have to disagree with you in terms of extending Njoku. There was nothing about his first five years as a pro that would have indicated he would be the player he is now. He did get better at blocking as time went on but from a production standpoint signing him to the contract they did was a rather risky move. It does appear as though it's going to work out but signing him to that contract wasn't a given. I certainly have to give him credit for that one. He's also very good at structuring contracts to make them more team friendly. But to me that takes more of a numbers guy than a guy who evaluates talent.

But maybe that's what analytics told them? After a few drafts maybe the numbers said that buying a QB and giving up the cream of your draft for the next few years was the better option than allowing him to draft one? That maybe giving up the draft picks wasn't that big of a deal considering the outcome by who was drafting the players? I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

Can you take your phone or keyboard off of Haiku mode? These posts are a pain to read.

It is not his fault.
His is brain on higher plane.
Fault is reader dumb.

Not unlike almost any other decision on where to work.

Exactly. At least for the most part. That's why I find it amusing that people buy into all the PR crap about "He wanted to play with Stefanski". I'm sure he wanted to play under a coach that he felt he could work with and have success with. But obviously Stefanski wasn't enough for him to base his decision on that until the Browns offered him that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It is what it is.