I would be very excited to see 1 of these 2 Tackles fall to the 10th pick. I think I would lean Becton since he is a natural Left Tackle. That seems to be much harder to find.



https://www.sbnation.com/2020/2/28/21158...lineman-records

No thanks, Simmons or McKinney

Simmons has problems getting off blocks especially of the caliber in the NFL....but then again in the NFL SPEED KILLS! OT is a big need for us. Simmons cannot play Mike but would be an amazing WILL...jmho Still OT if one of those two are there!

I think both will be there. I think at least 1 of them will be there at 16.

I'd take Simmons or Derrick Brown in a heartbeat over any OT in the draft.

If we are going to draft for need, so be it. Trade back 4-5-6 slots. That would be far enough back we could probably add a 3rd rounder this year or a 2nd next year.

Then you better start looking for a new QB too.

I like Wirfs or Thomas if we could

Recent rumors are us liking Cleveland ... though, of course it’s silly season

Small hands, shorter than ideal arm length...no thanks.

in other words, that’s who we’ll draft

Wills from Alabama has all the tangibles and is a monster. He played RT at Bama which is Tagovailoa’s blind side

To me he is a top 10 pick. All the others are a reach at 10 IMO.

I rather stick to the board and grab a tackle or guard in round 2.

It's not like we don't have 4-5 positions of need

On O we need a tackle and guard. Even say 2 tackles and a guard.


On D we need 2lbs, a Dt, a DE, and a safety. The D needs more of a upgrade over the O. Heck, maybe 2 DT's. Larry has gone down hill since a promising rookie season. He is light in the hips. He is fairly easy to push around in the run game.

There is a reason why teams run up the middle on us and get 5 yard gash plays and we are in 2nd and 4-5 a lot. It's hard to force a 3 and out in that position.


We need to go heavy on a OT and guard in FA, then go heavy on D in the draft.


JMO, rookie defenders have a easier transition to the NFL. Just read, react, and get to the football.

Free Agency will come first, then we will see what is needed in the draft.

True, but I don't even like to talk about the draft and needs.


Unless it makes no sense at all, take the best players on the board if you don't have to reach more than 2-3 picks.


OK....maybe in round 6-7 if you need a kicker of some sort or a long snapper you might draft for specialty need.

Early in the draft, just stick to the board you spent months working on. If you don't, don't even make a board. Just select positions. First round I am taking a OT. Second round a safety, etc.


IMO, a dumb way to draft.


Just take the best players. That is how you get better.

You can't go wrong drafting solid players.

Fortunately, all of our needs right now correlate to solid players available in this draft.

My perfect day would be to sign a quality vet for the LT position, then go Wirfs with the first. Voila’ a much upgraded line. High second can go to safety, or LB.

Yep, teams get into big time trouble when the forgo the BPA and draft based on need. It's not a one-year fix. It's a long term commitment.

Think about this.........Brett Farve is one of the league's best qbs. Aaron Rodgers was probably very high on GB's Vertical board. Let's say they needed an ILBer. Do they pass on Rodgers for the LBer or take the BPA? Think long-term. Not short-term!

Another hypothetical. Joe Thomas was a great OT. Let's say that an OT who the Browns ranked as their BPA when they drafted in in Joe's last year was available and they passed on him for a guy who was ranked 3 spots lower on their board because they had a "need" at that position. Think about it........how would that have worked out?

Once again, when drafting...............think long term by picking BPA over Need if you have to move more than 1 and sometimes 2 spots off of your Vertical board.

If you're missing a position on D, the rest of the squad should at least still survive.

If you're missing OL, you risk breaking your biggest investment.

Well, we had more QB's injured when we had all the superstars in the OL...

at #10..if elite/top talent remains on the board, auction the pick off to the highest bidder...

Back to moneyball...

Only if we can acquire 5 7th round picks in 2025

Because we didn't have 5 superstars. We always had at least one dud.

On the OL it's more important not to have duds than it is to have superstars. Right now we've got 2 duds on the ends.

I'm telling you folks...don't be surprised if the Browns return to Moneyball...trading down, bypassing top talent to take a chance on a player later in round 1.

Don't forget who is running this show...depo!

You quoted your own post and repeated the same sentence you've been parroting for months. However, we won't take you seriously until you like your own posts.

fate...well try addressing the subject...you ok with Depodesta trading down from #10 slot to accumulate more picks, like he did in his first year of MONEYBALL?

It is a legitimate possibility that MONEYBALL RETURNS..we know who is calling the shots...who is in charge of "STRATEGY", right?

This thread is supposed to be about Tristan Wirfs and Mekhi Becton. Your Depodesta thread is in Pure Football.

He can't help himself - he is a Depo Stalker.

mac, I think it was dumb to fire Dorsey and return to the same guys who drafted so poorly, but your obsession w/the Depo in charge thing is whacked.

You should probably stop it and come back w/another plan of attack. Just some friendly advice.

vers...do you believe the Browns are done with the tactic of trading down, bypassing more talented players at #10 just to gain more picks?

I truly don't know the answer to that question, mac. However, I was talking about your obsession w/depo being in charge. I think he has more influence than some are saying, but I don't think he is in charge. You should probably stop w/that mantra.

I think it depends on the players available at the pick.

We took Myles at 1.

If we have a pod of players grouped close together, we may trade back as far as we can while still guaranteeing a player in that pod.

If a player is alone in his group when it's our time to pick, we'll probably take him.

It comes down to the grades. If you can pay a comparable player less money, it makes sense to trade back. Plus, you pick up another player.

You've got to get the grades right, though.

Alternatively, there are times when a team gets more value from getting more "talented players" than it does from a "more talented" player.

OK back to the subject...Wirfs and Becton...

I think there are a lot of OT's to like in this draft. Wirfs is definitely a favorite of mine. My second OT is stacked with a few players. Becton, Jones, Thomas....

Wirfs has the drive, and ability you lust for. In many players you get one or the other...I think he is going to be a great OLineman in this league.

Becton has the size that is off the charts and a guy his size should not be able to move the way he does. I can't get a bead on his drive...however, the biggest knock against him from what I have read is that he wasn't tested because of all the play action Louisville played. Ummmm, hello....play action...Lets see we have an OT that excelled in an outside zone play action offense...what is our offense going to be again??? Oh yeah outside zone Play action...

As far as Simmons...I am not sure how you pass on him if he is there...But does anyone really see him being there? Yes there have been some scenarios generated with that possibility...BUT do you really see it playing out??? Personally there are a few LB's I think are available after that might work out very well for us...including (in no specific order) Zack Baun from Wisconsin (how about that replace a Whiskey LB with a Whiskey LB), Malik Harrison from OSU, Kenneth Murray from Oklahoma, Anfernee Jennings from Alabama....Again IF Simmons is there...how do you pass on it? BUT just don't see that happening.

"IF" we did take Simmons...I would be a little antsy staying pat in the second round waiting on an OT...I probably would want to try to trade back into the first...whereas if we take an OT in the first...I would not be so jumpy in the second....

Just a name to throw out there that we haven't been talking about...Drew Forbes. I really like the kid...And I would love to see if he can take the RG or RT spot. I like his demeanor and I think he has the athleticism for our needs. I hope he is given the chance as the current FO did not invest in him...

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but getting at least 1 starter-caliber OT in FA will be HUGE for our draft. It will take a lot of pressure off the roster assemblers and will help them approach the draft the right way.

I agree and I remain eager for both of those. We need to be sensibly aggressive. It might help to consider players we might part with and let them really help us in FA. I do not want to see us just cut and chuck players and get no return.

That would certainly be the ideal scenario.

Well its not as if there is not value at OT this year.

Its an unusual arrangement, having both value and need with the tenth selection.
And we need two OTs'

Some folks are just not realistic in their hopeful projections.

There certainly is a whole lot of wishful thinking with Isaiah Simmons falling to us @10.

JMO.

j/c...

Joe Thomas was on Cleveland Browns Daily today and discussed the OT prospects.

He sees Wirfs as a guy who will likely start out as a guard in the NFL before transitioning to tackle. Cites lack of hip mobility (he explains in detail based on combine numbers on the audio link).

Likes Becton the best, Andrew Thomas next, Wills Jr. third, Wirfs 4th. Says Wirfs might go first of the OL in any other typical draft class.

Here's the audio, begins at the 1hr and 1 minute mark.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/audio/cleveland-browns-daily-3-4-2020

I think Thomas is the best OT in this draft. If we go o-line at 10, that's who I want, and then either Becton or Wills.

Great info, thanks. Interesting stuff from JT

Good info. Thanks.

Wirfs it is.

Especially if Depo's and Berry's spreadsheet model says so.

What a frickin nightmare this is going to be.

Are we sure we should trust anything Joe Thomas says?

On coaches? No.

OL play? I would hope so.

I remember him saying Shon Coleman was the best right tackle in the league. He also said Greg Robinson "could" be a Pro Bowl left tackle. I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

Joe's comments of course will be noted.


Becton will most likely be gone. I like Thomas he plays with attitude and is good in the run game as well as pass protection.

Joe knows best.

I heard on the radio that Wirfs is a Right Tackle - is that correct? Actually, so is Jedrick Wills, but he was protecting a left-handed QB's blind side. How hard is the switch to the left side for a right tackle - I don't want a project at LT, especially at #10.

Pumping up his teammates?

Probably with Coleman. The Robinson comment was in the 2019 off-season.

The next time you're feeling amorous,use your left hand.
Unless you are ambidextrous,that will give you a sense of the difficulty involved.

A guy I work with calls that "the stranger".

Oh my. LOL

I trust Joe Thomas more when he comments on O-Lineman. When Corbett was drafted, he came out and said, "I can say confidently, Austin Corbett is not a tackle in the NFL, he's a guard."

He didn't say Wirfs can't play OT, just he believes he'll start his career out as a guard.

I think it depends on the individual. Some people are just "ambidextrous."

It's also a bit like Van Pelt changing Baker's footwork. It'll probably be some new techniques to get used to no matter which side they end up on just going from college to pros and a new system, but with reps and focus should be able to get used to it. (This is assuming they have the requisite athletecism to stay at OT on either side)

Still Trent Williams at LT and Wills at RT is sounding pretty good to me. Assuming they don't go for higher picks of course.

Good news. It appears like at least 2 of them should be there for us too

We are getting neither. Probably not even getting Wills.

Looks like Thomas.

I just heard Daniel Jeremiah on 92.3 The Fan saying that watching Wirfs' workout at the Combine convinced him that Wirfs has "Left Tackle feet" and that he could successfully move to LT.

Watch out for the talking heads making projections about position changes. Taking a pick at #10 you are counting on changing positions doesn't seem like a good investment.

Wirfs did play some LT last year. He played 161 snaps at the LT position. He played 693 snaps at RT for comparison.

Yeah, he filled in on a temporary basis due to injury.

So, who is the guy he couldn't beat for LT?

Great exchange of posts!!

Everyone knows the stranger is when you sit on your hand until it falls asleep.

Anyway......Mekhi Becton caught my eye at the Combine. I haven't been following the draft very closely.

Any thoughts on him?

Alaric Jackson. He was injured early in the season in the game against Miami of Ohio.

That's the guy we gotta get!

My only concern is his weight at 350 lbs. The guy is what, 22-23?

What is he going to be like when a millionaire and enters middle age spread at age 27?

That's my concern with him as well.

I don't know about all that but it is a cautionary tale of why you can't project a RT transitioning to LT at the next level.

I would take Wills. He was the number one at one point. But he is a solid player and has performed very good. Plug and play guy.

I like Becton's size though, and he can move even though he is that big.

I don't think you can miss with any of them, but Wirfs would be an awesome guard.

I am not saying to not draft these guys, but there is no such thing as a "safe" OL draft choice anymore. The college game make it really hard to evaluate how they will transition to the NFL. The OL has become very similar to the QB position in that regard.

I think there are 4 really good tackles in this draft worthy of the #10 spot in the draft. Before the combine I think their ranking was 1) Andrew Thomas, 2) Jedrick Wills, 3) Trsiton Wirfs, 4) Mecki Becton. After the combine it seems the ranking has now changed to 1) Mecki Becton, 2) Triston Wirfs, 3) Jedrick Wills, 4) Andrew Thomas.

I thing Thomas seems to be the purest Left Tackle of the group. He has great film, and was a steady producer at that position. Just did not WOW anyone at the combine. Mecki Becton played left tackle in college and was starting to climb in the rankings before the combine and then showed he is a tremndous athlete at 365 pounds. Wills and Wirfs probably are the two best tackles in the draft but both played right tackle in college.

That's one reason why I prefer Wirfs. He comes out of a "pro style" offense that runs a wide zone scheme.

(It's also why I preferred Josh Rosen. I am always right.)

Good point guys ... the OL has changed in college and it has made it tougher to predict how player will transfer/progress.

I didn’t realize that’s bout Becton, so it makes him move up in my mind

We only had one superstar OLman JOE THOMAS

You need 5 solid OL which would include a superstar LT cause of the skill set needed to be considered SOLID!

Does a team ever have 5 solid...yes, usually those going to the Conference championships. Doesn't mean they have to have the BEST at each position...just SOLID and work well together. Center is very important in that. Right now we are solid at 2 of the 5 positions. LG and C...The other 3 still have to be established...I see possibly 2 within the draft.

jmho

Taking Olinemen early or even moving up to get a great one is usually a no brainer mo.

I'm starting to think I'm the only one who doesn't like Becton.

His technique is a train wreck. He locks on to one player and gets beat religiously by stunts. His pass sets are just plan ugly.

I do like that everyone is comparing him to Bryant McKinnie, though. He definitely sets his back foot way too far back in pure pass pro.

From Wikipedia:
"After a 2009 loss against the Arizona Cardinals, it was reported by Tony Boselli on the Dan Patrick show that McKinnie accidentally tipped off the Vikings offensive game plan to the Cardinals. He said that the Cardinals knew when the Vikings were going to pass because of his leg. "He would have one of his legs back a little bit further" when getting in stance before the play.[3]"


But...that's just my opinion...

Can you explain what you don’t like about his technique specifically? Just curious b/c I’m clueless

His hand placement is almost always high and outside the framework of the defender.
He does not come off the guy he has decided to block before the snap. Oftentimes taking himself out of the play and, as mentioned, falling for stunts religiously.
He cheats his back foot in his pass sets noticeably giving away his exceedingly few pro sets.

In short, his technique and awareness.

Not a big fan of Becton either, not saying he isn't able to learn the things you say he struggles with, especially with Callahan being his OL Coach. Still I would be Leary taking him at #10 because we need a first day starter at LT and he may take longer to develop than the others ...

All of this has been part of my concerns with him all along. I've asked what he looked like during his season because the only thing people focus on is his hype video where he pancakes guys, but never got anything substantial.... thus me always comparing him to "Big Cakes".

I mean... Why was he not viewed as a top-tier tackle DURING the season? Instead, one video gets leaked and now he's suddenly jumped into the Top 10? Please.

All things considered, the guy is most likely just an athletic project who has gotten by this long simply by virtue of athleticism, strength, and size versus his competition and completely lacks all fundamentals to actually play the position well at the highest level.

Vers I really respect your takes on OL. Who do you see as the best for what we need?

Thanks Kash, but I have no idea. I haven't studied any of these dudes. I would just be making things up if I said I knew.

I'm at the point of asking questions about dudes, like I did Becton.

I will let you know if I formulate a opinion if I study the dudes.

Thanks again and hope the kids are doing well.

I have watched Wirfs play and I was not overly impressed. He is a very solid RT and would be a great pick in the 2nd round. I personally think #10 overall is too high. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the #1 OT on our board given his SPARQ.

I have seen Andrew Thomas and he is the top OT on my board. He is just dominant, plain and simple.

I have not seen Becton play but read that he was dominant against the smaller schools but that he was only so-so against the better teams like ND.

I have not seen Wills play but I read that there are a number of people who think that he will need to move inside to guard.

j/c...

Here are the draft notes from PFF's most recent NFL draft guide for Becton, Thomas, Wills, and Wirfs (posted in that order):

I can't read that. Is it available in a regular print format?

I'm kinda feeling, based only on online discussions like this, that the unflashy, does everything well, handled SEC at LT, Andrew Thomas might just be the smart pick.

Agreed. And he might be there after a trade down.

That chart makes me think we’ll get a good OT regardless

I hope the Browns draft a guy everybody likes and he plays well and stays healthy. I will not be disappointed if that is not the case.

I'll eliminate the NFL comparison portion of the graph and repost when I have some time.

We’ve had very few of those ... Chubb, Thomas ...?

He was the best OT during the season and at the end of the season... I don't see why Silly Season should change that and have other OT's ranked higher than him just because of hype videos and keyboard warrior draft reviews.

Don't worry about it. I don't want you to do extra work. I do appreciate the offer, though.

After the Joe Thomas comments on Wirfs, would it be a worthy move to get him at 10 and plug him in at RG to replace Zeitler? I am still impressed with that video someone posted about Baker being better with a stout G/C/G combo in front of him.

Whats the excuse for him not being a guard

Is this your first draft? Just playing. It boggles my mind every year. There seems to be a guy in every position that jumps simply because hes a track star.

I always wonder why the time in the 40 for an OL is so important to people. If he’s running 40 yards, it’s either a pick six or a touchdown.

Sounds good. Hope you get a chance to formulate an opinion. Glad to see you posting again.

Kids are GREAT! Thanks for asking!

Right click the image, and select open image in new tab. It'll enlarge it.

Usually indicative of having good feet which is pretty important from an OL perspective, I would think.

the first 10 probably more indicative.

Thanks Turk.

But if this is the case, there are better drills for evaluating an OL feet, right? I would think the first 10 of the 40 would be good for seeing leg power.

I tend to agree with you. Straight line speed is not indicative of footwork. You hear people speak about being quick rather than fast. Jerry Rice had a slow 40 time for such a productive WR but he was so quick and precise out of his breaks that he was hard to cover.

The only real place I can think of that speed helps an OL player is run blocking at the second level. They do move downfield to run block.

I think all of you guys are correct.

The 10 yard split time is more important in evaluating an OL. No doubt about it.

However, that time does not evaluate a player's footwork. There are a lot of footwork/agility drills that do a good job of evaluating a player's footwork and agility.

I guess “Becton had an amazing three-cone drill time!” just doesn’t have the same attention-grabbing headline potential.

I think the 40 is actually plenty relevant, even for a Tackle.

A football field is 53 yards wide. On a sweep, the OL could be running hard and hammering blocks, easily, for 25-30 yards - and then after just 40 seconds, they may need to do it again. So, in that regard, testing an all-out effort for 40 yards is actually a pretty dang solid metric to look at.

What would be better, I think, would be a stack of 40s, 40 seconds apart and look at the average, as well as the drop off.

Drinking 40's at 40 seconds apart is a tall feat to ask of anyone.

Amateurs.

Valid point. A view I had not thought about.

do anybody know what Joe Thomas 40 time was?

JOE THOMAS

Position: Offensive Tackle
College: Wisconsin
Draft Class: 2007
Draft Age: 44.1
Player Dimensions
Height: 78.63 inches
Weight: 311 pounds
BMI: 36.22
Arm Length: 33.75 inches
Hand Size: 10.13 inches
Front Shoulder: 14.0 inches
Back Shoulder: 10.5 inches

40 Yard Dash: 4.94 seconds
40 Yard (MPH): 16.56 (MPH)
20 Yard Split: 2.90 seconds
10 Yard Split: 1.78 seconds
Bench Press: 28 reps (225 lb)
Wonderlic: (N/A) (0-50)
QB Ball Velocity: (N/A) (MPH)
Vertical Leap: 33.0 inches
Broad Jump: 110 inches
20 Yd Shuttle: 4.88 seconds
Three Cone: 7.95 seconds
Shuttle Split: (N/A) seconds
60 Yd Shuttle: (N/A) seconds
Four Square: (N/A) seconds

Draft Age: 44.1

???

Just a copy-paste from a combine site... don't know what the heck that is about lol.

WGGTG!!

DKWTMLOL?

Keeping in mind that Wills played RT which was Tua Tagovailoa's blind side ... shows good movement skills

Some of our linemen on offense have been practically as nimble as vending machines (pick your favorite, like pop machines). Said machines might grade higher than we dressed.

Hoping we get some hostile beef at tackle. Or Joe T. gets his second win in time for expanded seasons. LOL

I like that..."hostile beef"...

As the Browns search for an identity, imo, it would be great if our OLine had a reputation of being mean, nasty and hostile.

That sounds great in theory. I mean if you're looking for OL players who just try and pancake people. But we will be running a zone blocking scheme. Footwork, the ability to pull and techniques mean far more than just "nasty and mean" in that system.

I hear you red. I think Becton is very raw technique wise. He is mostly RT material at this point but make no mistake about it his skill set is very unique. Now this is where scouting comes in.
Probably the most important factor is "Is this kid in love with the game"

"Is this kid ready n has the desire to become great."

If those (") are true then u have somebody worth the #10 pick. If he leans to the lazy side of things then we are talking OG n a high risk.

On a personal note. I went to ER Thursday night for heart/water weight reasons but because I had a fever I have been put in a prison. They will not let me out of my room until the results come in. I'm ok, but wife is crying and people in masks run in n out immediately, the scare is going crazy.

I sure hope the draft goes as schedule and this madness stops!!!

I hope everything turns out okay for you tab.

j/c...

Matt Miller
@nfldraftscout
Tristan Wirfs to the Cardinals feels like a done deal now at No. 8 overall.

thanks Pit after the first day was sent to a special ward for Isolation but they were able to attend to the real reason I went to ER in the first place. Get rid of the water buildup in my body. So from Friday - till Tuesday was in a private room but people only would rush in and out cause they were afraid. But I showed no symptoms and I asked to be let free to go home as my doctor text me stating I was safer at home than at the hospital now that the water problem was satisfied...lost 16 lbs of water in my stay there. Legs are half the size.

While home just about 30 minutes ago got a call from the attending doctor at the hospital...my Coronavirus test results were in...NEGATIVE so I am not a danger to society just I must be careful cause of my preexisting conditions.

Meanwhile this Jack Conklin signing is tremendous now we got 3 LG, C and RT - more than solid. If a LT is there at #10 like Wirfs...super!!! We won't have to reach...either one is there or not. RG can be gotten 3rd round or later if we do our due diligence!!!

jmho

Glad to hear you're okay Bud. We go back and forth on the board sometimes but that has nothing to do with how much I wish you well. We go back to the stone age on here.

I know Hubbard used to be a fairly solid RT so it's my hope that by signing Conklin we may have settled the RT and RG positions. A man can dream, right?

I'm still not at the point where I can actually say which LT candidates I would consider worthy of the #10 selection but as of now I think there are two and possibly three.

I just noticed we all joined on similar dates, lol.

That's when PPE created this board.

I just noticed something, though.

I joined the original board on 9-11-2001. (9-11 day) I joined this board on 9-11-06.

Weird.

Crazy how long some of us have been here.

Dude, I'm dumbfounded by long we've been running all the time, lol

I look at it and am like "Wha? Really??"

Time flies!

j/c

Staying home with no sports, I've been watching the SEC reruns. Yesterday I watched the '19 Iron Bowl again (Alabama at Auburn), GREAT GAME! Was paying attention to Wills. I saw a play where D.Brown lined up against him. Wills swallowed him. I was most impressed when, after Wills was engaged with the DE, the OLB made a delayed sprint at the QB. Wills disengaged, covered some ground and chucked the OLB as he sprinted past, disrupting him enough for the QB to complete his pass. It was very quick for a man that size.

Most where with the Browns MB.
I actually had more post then ... then I do today.

I personally did not get the message that Purp started the board till I got an e-mail from a friend, wondering why I never joined.

Same here! Strange

Yeah you and I never got to that "HATE" stage of each other, which is good.

Hubbard so you think he might be our RG??? hmmm never thought of that. Hubbard is a BACK UP with starting capabilities.
I think he can transition to RG but in our system we are looking for some speed actually at the position. You remember in Denver back in the days they would have tough as nails but smaller OGs as long as they were quick and in shape. Well we will give up 320-340 to get us a kick butt 300 guy that has quick feet and can move laterally.

I think we will get our RG...probably one in FA and one in the draft. Shane Lemieux or Runyon from Mich. They will be there in the 34d round or later...I mention 3rd round only cause we got 2 picks in the 3rd so a good spot to get OL and another there. The key for us is LT in the first.

LT Wirfs is my first wish and then Wills from Bama 2nd round maybe the Prince guy from Auburn or Cleveland from Boise. We need one of those 4 to have our LT for our System.

Wirfs...Bitonio...Tretter...Runyon...Conklin that does it for me and Hubbard is our #6 guy.

excuse me as I wipe the drool coming from chin...lol

I’m confused. Wirfs looks good. But I see two guys above the other two, and wirfs ain’t it.

Who do you think is off the board first?

Now this is JMO, and I’ve been wrong plenty, but I see Wills and Thomas as clearly the top two. Becton and Wirfs the next tier. they’ve got great potential, but Wills and Thomas have great potential too. They’re just much closer to reaching it. Their technique is great. Either can step in and start LT for us next year. That’s what I’ve seen. they’re much further along as players

Much like you, at RG I'm not sure how his skill set would fit in with the zone blocking scheme. He does seem a little slow footed for that.

But he has played RG in the NFL before and did a decent job of it. I guess I'm looking at it more as plan B. While fixing both OT spots and the RG spot is something I'm sure we both hoped to see, that's slightly aggressive in one off season.

I guess I would see moving Hubbard to RG, a position he has played fairly well before, would at least be a stop gap measure which may not be a long term fix at RG, but certainly a short term upgrade at the position.

Was just checking on PFF and according to them Hubbard has only taken 8 snaps in his career at OG almost all of his playing time with Pittsburgh was at RT with a little bit at LT and at OC. I don't think converting from RT to RG should be that hard though and he is used to having someone lined up on his right side quite a bit with a TE.

He also played as a blocking TE in a game against us.

yeah, he did line up at the TE spot quite a bit too. I just found it funny that he was usually listed as OG on most roster and depth chart sites but according to PFF he only played 8 snaps there his whole career.

I think it was probably the position they felt he was best suited for. A RG certainly doesn't need to have the skill set of an OT to be effective at his job. I have no idea how this will all play out. I'm hoping he can slide to RG and work out. It would be a best case scenario for all of us.

j/c,

I am somewhat surprised that Hubbard is still on the team. I don't see him moving to RG where his weekness against a bull rushing DT will fully exposes his deficiency vs power.

We have better options for RG imo, not that we could not bring in an upgrade there either.

They have kept him on the roster for one reason or another. They either feel he has trade value or they have something else in mind for him. They already inked his replacement so if they have no other plans for him, keeping him on the roster at this juncture doesn't make a lot of sense.

For now, likely as a cheap swing man. There is no doubt that we'd want to improve on him, but he's not a bad guy to have as a backup.

But we have Kendall Lamm already filling that role.

And we have Drew Forbes, not sure his role at this point.

There's not a lot of film of Hubbard at RG out there for the new staff to evaluate, so maybe they want to see him there in TC this summer before they decide to keep or cut him.

At the moment, Lamm is probably our starting LT. We'll see how things shake out after the draft and the rest of free agency.

It's easy to pencil one in in the draft, but 31 other teams could have other ideas. 9 are scheduled to be in front of us, but any of the other ones could also move up. Value and need have to intersect when we're on the clock.

He'll probably end up elsewhere, but not until we have at least a competent backup OT in place if he's gone. Hubbard and Lamm are the only 2 OTs we have on the roster until Conklin is official.

We are not talking about the here and now, but when it matters, with the start of the season.

Lamm will not be our starting LT.

Is this sarcasm?

But, it's March, not August.

No! What I am saying is that all the excuses as to why Hubbard is on the team is Baloney.

Yes, that means the roster is not a finished product.

Just my opinion, but I think Hubbard is a lot better player than Lam. The latter was horrible in Houston and was a big reason why Watson was sacked so often.

Exactly my point. Barring a trade, he & Lamm and all the others will go to camp. Not all of them will make it.

J/C. I think Hubbard has been awefull. I would be shocked if he remained on our roster at around 7 million to be a back up. King John really screwed the pooch on this contract, we owe him a lot of cash. Not sure when he can be cut to save the most cabbage, but I think it will be sooner than later. He was exposed all last year. I think the draft will provide us some upgrades in talent at a cheaper cost.

Lol, I know eh? I joined the original DTs the week we signed Jeff Garcia. 16 freakin’ years ago this month!

lol, that's around when i signed up i think. 2004. We signed Garcia and i remember the big decision with KW2, Sean Taylor (who wasn't available to us), and Big Ben.

I really liked all three of them; although clearly we should have drafted Big Ben. KW2 was a heckuva player though, too bad he turned out to be a psychopath

I think I joined in 2001.

I do remember the Taylor, Big Ben, K2 debates. I loved all three guys. I did end up saying we should go w/Big Ben because if you don't have a qb.......you gotta draft one.

I personally hope that we can find upgrades for both.

For the money that we will pay Hubbard to be a back up ... we could have paid Kirko to stay and start.

Just thinking out load...

See. I think this is analytics and strategy. I’m guessing we have slotted amounts of money per position.

That or we’re waiting to cut him after June 1st. I guess 1.6 million of the dead money (2.4 million) would get transferred to 2021 cap. Doesn’t make sense to me though. Lotta money for a bad player. Lotta money for a guard if we kicked him inside.

Just seems we could replace him for less if necessary. Not like his contract expires this year.......

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/chris-hubbard-12939

I agree w/you. I didn't clarify this, but I was thinking of restructuring Hubbard's contract.

Petey, haven't been a big study on OL as in past years. Although now that I'm out of work...lol I will have time on my hands and possibly get into this draft as Doctors don't want my out in the population as I'm probably a gonner if I get the virus. Just want my Football hopefully we will have a vaccine by then and things will be on the path of normalcy rather than a Mad Maxx situation.

I just don't see being able to address all three OL positions, LT, RT and RG, in one off season. I think the plan will be to move Hubbard to RG and as far as his salary, it isn't bad for a starting RG.

I'm not saying I love the idea, but I do think it's an avenue we may travel.

I thought I read where the Browns were high on Teller? I'm not sure about that, but did anyone read/hear that?

Yep.

And I fully trust Callahan.

I may very well be wrong. I'm just trying to apply the math here. With Conklin signed, for the life of me unless they plan to start Hubbard at RG, I don't have a clue why they haven't cut the guy. His salary is far too high for a swing guy.

As of now I don't really know what to make of this FO. I like their initial signings and as of now I'm giving them a free pass on some of the questionable signings. I think they could be depth and some may end up simply as camp fodder. So as of this moment, I'm trying to see it as a glass half full guy. Though I'm puzzled WTH is going on at the LB'er position.

I would have thought Hubbard would have been given his walking papers when Conklin was signed. He wasn't. So I'm just trying to make some sense of that.

I don't know, either.

I’d say we have to do 1 of 3 things with Hubbard:

1. Restructure his deal to fit that of a backup/swing guy
2. Move him to RG if we feel he’s a starter
3. Cut him

Any of those three options would make sense.

Yes, and don't forget about Forbes.

I read that Hubbard believes he will be cut. But since it hasn't happened yet maybe they are reconsidering.

He had a rocky start, but I thought that he settled in afterwards. (But he might not have the skills to fit the new blocking scheme?)

If I had to speculate, he and Forbes would be more likely combative candidates in regard to the RG position.

Forbes is a fairly athletic Guard type, and I think that he has a shot at grabbing the RG spot. Having a 1st year starter there doesn't worry me too much since he would be between Tretter and Conklin. If he does work out there, and with a rookie LT, we could be set for a few years on the OL.

I agree, and he should get the oppritunaty to win the job ... Whenever we play again...

I think it ailry evident they are going to throw him in to the mix at guard.

If he doesn't win the job, he is gone unless everybody else fails miserably.

I hear ya. I don't have much time anymore either. I'm a mariner, out to sea for a month then home for a month. But with the Corona Virus, my months at home are full-time stay-at-home Dad (Pulled daughter out of daycare and wife works from home). And my time out at sea is extremely busy because i'm what's known as a Chief Mate. It seems to mean that i'm in charge of a ridiculous amount of things in the daily operations of the boat. Essentially my own job, whatever the Captain seems to forget, and then whatever else everyone comes up to me with (And it seems like everyone comes to me with all sorts of crap)


Anyway, if you get a chance, just spend some time looking at them. Game-film. Not whatever you see at the combine. I've got them rated 1) Wills 2) Thomas. 3) Becton & Wirfs (no order and don't know which i prefer yet). Wills reminds me a bit of Joe Thomas. Technically very sound. Athletic. Not super big or imposing, but a real student of the game who plays smart. Thomas is a very good player too. Better runbocker than Wills it seems, but not the passblocker that Wills is.

Becton and Wirfs are athletic freaks, but have question-marks (as many 1st round talents can have). Wills has no questionmarks in my book. And Thomas has very little of that too. Just a matter of preference between those two.


Wills and Thomas really impress me. It's hard for me to believe that if one of them is on the board, we'll pass on them for anyone but Chase Young.



It's also hard for me to believe, if you watch enough, that you won't say, damn Jedrick Wills can step in and immediately be a good starting NFL LT. Just show up and do the job. He's that polished........ Guy will start his career here (and end his very successful career here) if we get a chance to draft him

Don't hurt your head about it. Our Roster is to be in the 80's no need to let anyone go. I see Hubbard as a fallback situation or the kid Teller - if we do not get anyone.

As for LT this is a good draft for LTs one that I have seen in a long time. So its a good time to grab one. We won't be near top 10 picks in the future as we are going to get better...how much? hard to tell but definitely better than top 10 pick. So I see us going in that direction. Once you get that LT he's good for 10 years or so.

All depends who and where somebody falls to us. We didn't go OG in FA so it did not appear to be a "NEED" for their evaluations of our team.

jmho

I admit I have no clue what they plan to do at the RG position. I was just trying to make sense of carrying Hubbard's salary on the cap. His salary would line up great for a starting RG. It doesn't make much sense for a swing guy who isn't a starter. As I said, I really have no idea what their plans are for him.

Pit he is a solid #6 for OL as an injury there can be expected. He can play all 5 positions if called on for temp duty. Little better than a bum. So unless we are in dired need of Cap Room I think he will be on board? How do we stand regarding Cap...around 15 mil after rookies?? So Hubbard I guess will be a goner in 2021 I guess but we can hold onto him either as you say a possible fall back for RG as he could manage it at least with Average skills but not a "BUM" or until the rookie we get 3rd round or later is ready.

It would be nice to get a complete surprise out of the guys we got. Somebody who was considered smallish but in our new system with speed/quickness could fit right in. In my dreams its Drew Forbes!!! In my draft wishes it would be Runyan of Michigan 3rd round or later!

We will see.

Peen point is I think after the first 4 mentioned. Burrow, Tua, Young and Okuday possibly 5 by adding Derrik Brown kid is a stud.

So after those first 5...there are around 10 players very close to each other in regards to BPA....throw in 2 reaches possibly at QB Herbert and Love both probably better than the kid the Giants took last year.

What I'm saying is:
Becton, Simmons, Ruggs, Wirfs, Jeudy, Kinlaw, Thomas, Wills, Henderson and Lamb

All are closely grouped as far as BPA and Need within that grouping now takes over we aren't talking about "REACHING" for somebody no where near #10 at BPA.

Getting a good-great LT for the next 10 years is very special. We wasted Joe T without a franchise QB...now lets not waste that franchise QB.

Also in my book...a good to great LT will make all the SKILL POSITION PLAYERS on Offense BETTER!!!

A "WILL" LB will not do that for our team. In the 4-3 its about the DL not LBs - We need some solid LBs for sure but impact is from our DL!!! We are building a team.

TE, FB, OGs, WRs, RBs, LBs and Safeties These are positions that can be filled anywhere in the draft. You don't want to go in the First or Second rounds to fill them unless we got everything and there is a stud. I'm CERTAIN this how our analytics will spell this out within our system.

Again this is a very strong draft for OTs, I expect maybe 5 gone in the first round. Lets get the best LT cause there will not be a candidate with the skill set for that position after the first round. It is the 2nd RAREST skill set available in the drafts outside of QB. Why team wise you go and get it and this is turning out to be a perfect draft to get one.

jmho

Of course, it all depends on who the decision makers think is worthy. Might not line up with what you, me, or anyone else on here thinks.

Good argument Tab. My thinking is that Simmons is a game changing talent with positional flexibility. You mention him as a WILL but he can play SS, FS, nickle, and QB Spy. He can cover, he's fast, he can tackle, and he seems to have a feel for the game. Were he bigger, he could be a MIKE.

Something cfrs often says is that the defenses are changing. The 3-4/4-3 distinction is fading as more teams play with 4-2-5 more often. For some teams, nickle is the base formation.

Having a field captain at the nickle instead of MIKE may be advantageous. Simmons seems to offer that kind of potential.

But as you point out, having a stud LT on a good line can take an offense to another level.

I just hope one is on the board when we get to pick. I doubt it. We’ll probably end up with Thomas. Jmo

With the new CBA rules I’m not sure this is going to hurt him.

Hope he is off our board.

He is off

I want Thomas anyway.

For whatever reason (even before this news) the thought of Becton scared me ... he seems to have the highest chance to bust. I’d take Thomas if possible

I think Ezra's chances of busting are higher.

Becton probably has the highest boom potential. But, the bust potential is definitely there.

I think the fact that our OL coach made Ereck Flowers into something other than a bust gives me a bit of hope Becton could work out for us if we went that direction.

Probably not the direction that I'd go. I expect there will be some wildcards early in the draft that make things interesting.

I'm not sure Andrew Thomas is the best scheme fit if we're going heavy ZBS. He's not the most agile. His drops are pretty good, but he's kind of tight hipped.

I think Austin Jackson is the best fit stylistically, but definitely needs seasoning and has bust potential. Preferably he could learn behind a Peters/Williams for awhile. Maybe have some blocking TE/extra lineman duty to get his feet wet.

I agree with you but think most people see these two on different levels. I think many see Becton as a possible #10 selection where as they see someone like Cleveland as a late first to early second round pick. So I think that varies the expectation of each.

If people weren't talking about trading back to 16 with the Falcons and taking Cleveland there, I'd agree with you.

Ezra in the 3-4th round, sure. Top half of the first round, heck no.

If we draft Jackson for our LT need then we better trade for Williams or sign Peters, because he is a project who will probably take a year or two before he can handle the job well enough.

I would certainly NEVER consider Clevland mid first round. To me that's just crazy talk that would wreak of desperation. That MAY be the point at which I would consider Becton.

JMHO, you're stating Becton even with the potential drug issue...with the "new culture" again, I just doubt it...I don't see us taking any potential character issues....Our "real football players" guy blew several picks on those types...and yes, so far Hunt has survived....barely....I'd take guy with less talent and more trust, drive....GO Browns!!!

j/c...

to clarify my position.

I had always thought sometimes wrote it in a post that a big variable with Becton is his wanting to be the best and willing to work hard to achieve that.

Recently I read (quote from a poster on a report) that he is "LAZY" if that is true then I don't wish to touch him at all. It is a big factor with him but we had a chance to interview him at the Combine and possibly via Phone interview with coaches so that I trust Berry and Ski to have the correct info on this kid. Also they might have talked to his college coach via phone regarding him to get the correct skivy on this kid.

But if truly LAZY he is off the list.

Does anyone have that article/quote? I would like to read it in context.

Hmmmm...seems to me I remember something similar also.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/04...-nfl-draft.html

Article on Wirfs by Ferentz.

Ferentz is a highly respected football coach especially when it concerns offensive linemen.

The article convinced me. I have great respect for amateur wrestling and how it can help football players.

The training requirements are intense. Stamina, strength, quickness are all premium required skills.

You combine that with how he excelled in track and field - damn. Shot put, and discus you have to be strong and athletic with great balance.

This guy Wirfs must be something to put up what he did at the Combine.

I would have no problem taking him at ten.

Think Jerry Sherk !

Good article. Thanks.

Simmons, Wills, Wirfs, Thomas in that order at #10 for me.

By the way, Ezra Cleveland was also an outsanding HS wrestler.

It sold me.

I know Joe Thomas and Berry made comments regarding the switch from RT to LT as not being a major concern.

However, my take is a lot depends upon the individual. Some may be able to make the transition quickly others it may not be so easy.

Wirfs seems like the type of athlete who could handle it. When you can do what he has done in other sports you have to be versatile. At his size this guy is some kind of freak.

So, he seems like a sure thing to be a very good player for a long time.

My problem is that most had him penciled in at either RT or G until the combine. His game film didn't create that impression. I'm more of a guy who goes by a players performance in game time situations than projections from the combine and the label "athletic freak".

Of the two RT's that some project transferring to LT, more people saw Wills making that move than Wirfs based on game tape. I'll go with that.

I'm going with Ferentz.

If the article was from someone without direct knowledge and the experience to understand how Wirfs could handle it; I would not have paid any attention.

"other people" has no meaning in my book.

I have found that taking the word of one expert among many only suits to skew one's view in one extreme direction.

I’d be good with Wirfs or Thomas

Watch, Wills and Becton will be left at 10

I get that but working directly with a guy for years after recruiting him carries alot of weight to me.

And that's fine. But how many NCAA coaches do you see who don't strongly endorse their players before the draft? I've watched year in and year out, top NCAA coaches, some of them former NFL HC's who have talked up everything from their QB, to their DL. From their LB's to their RB's. From their CB's to their OL players.

Now I can't say whether that's because they are emotionally invested in those players, whether they want to boost their own ego, whether they are far better coaches than evaluators, whether they misjudge how the player will translate at the next level or if they just want to give the kids they coach the best opportunity for the future. I have no idea.

But I see this every year and pretty much exclude their HC or position coach when evaluating a player. It's definitely a skewed view from a bias source which by and large turns out to be wrong.

Except Ferentz is his coach. Not someone who is scouting him. He was his coach. He has a stake in all this.



I've got nothing against Wirfs. I'd be happy to draft him at 10. He's the third guy on my board behind Wills and Thomas. That hasn't changed.

I'm just saying, Wirfs has things he has to work on. Especially in pass blocking. But i don't see why he can't do it.



He'll be drafted to be a tackle. If he can't be a tackle, he'll be a guard (and a great one). But he'll be drafted to be a tackle, and whatever team takes him will do their damnest to make him one before making him a guard. He won't be drafted with "guard" in mind. I just don't see that happening.

Any of those three at 10 sounds great to me. After that, we better get on the phone with Jason Peters or something. Start going into plan B and looking at someone else.

I can't speak to other coaches.

Nor will I try and find everything Ferentz has stated about previous players he has coached.

First Wirfs has been considered one of the top four from the beginning. In what order? It all depends upon who was asked.

I don't think anyone has come and said anyone of the four is way better than the others. They all seemed to be lumped together.

All I am saying is I am fine if he ends up with the Browns.

The Browns have some pretty good resources to draw upon in Callahan and Joe Thomas.

And I just wanted to add. I'm not trying to knock your process. Each of us have their own and whatever works for you is fine.

But I would have to ask you this. If you had a kid who work his ass off for you, who did a great job for you, wouldn't you do your best to promote him and reward him for all of his hard work and dedication?

All I'm trying to do here is explain why we see this differently. I didn't want you to get the impression that I'm trying to take you to task or argue with you about it.

I totally understand how coaches will pimp their guys.

In reading his take on Wirfs I thought he made some astute points. I have yet read a negative on Wirfs. But in all honesty neither have I studied any of the prospects.

Certainly there is enough tape on him to draw a conclusion on your own.

The only draft prospect that I have watched tape on is Simmons.

Scouting NFL draft's best tackles: Finding best fits for Giants, Jets

JORDAN RAANAN AND RICH CIMINI
7:22 AM ET14 Minute Read
First-round OL prospect displays his strength by pushing a truck
First-round OL prospect displays his strength by pushing a truckFormer Louisville offensive tackle Mekhi Becton pushes a truck in preparation of the 2020 NFL draft.
If there ever were a good time to find the right fit at offensive tackle at the top of the NFL draft, this is the year.


Four highly rated tackles -- Louisville's Mekhi Becton, Georgia's Andrew Thomas, Alabama's Jedrick Wills Jr. and Iowa's Tristan Wirfs -- are expected to be selected within the first 15 picks on April 23. The surprising part is that the order in which they will be picked varies depending on the team and individual.

ESPN talked with 11 evaluators (scouts, executives, coaches and analysts) and tabulated their rankings for the top four, with each first-place vote worth four points, a second-place vote worth three points and so on.

As the chart shows, Becton was our top-ranked tackle, edging Wills for first in total points with 32 and in first-place votes (5-4). The voting highlights how widely opinions vary when assessing the tackles at the top of this draft class.

For the teams at the top of the draft, beginning with the New York Giants at No. 4, there are options.

"What do you need the most out of that pick if it's going to be a tackle?" SEC Network analyst and former Auburn offensive lineman Cole Cubelic explained. "You tell me that and then you can answer that question of [how do you rank the tackles]."

The Giants aren't the Cleveland Browns, who have the No. 10 pick and need a left tackle ASAP. They aren't the Arizona Cardinals, who are at No. 8 and looking to fill a hole on the right side.

The Giants are in position to draft a tackle, start him on the right side or as a swing tackle, and then contemplate a move to the left side when Nate Solder (who turned 32 over the weekend) is gone. That leaves everybody on the table if the Giants don't trade down.

The New York Jets also have options. They are leaning toward offensive tackle with their first-round pick (No. 11 overall) even though they added four linemen in free agency.

It has been a long time since the Jets used a high pick on a lineman -- 2006, when they drafted D'Brickashaw Ferguson and Nick Mangold in the first round. Since 2007, they have made 21 picks in the top 50 overall, and not one was an offensive lineman. Every other team has taken at least two linemen in the top 50 over that span, according to Elias Sports Bureau research.

That could change with this year's options.

1. Mekhi Becton, Louisville

Mekhi Becton's 2020 NFL draft profile
Mekhi Becton's 2020 NFL draft profile
Check out highlights of former Louisville offensive lineman Mekhi Becton, who'll be someone to look out for in the upcoming draft.

What he would bring: Becton is a mountain of a man with capabilities above and beyond the other top tackles. The LeBron James of offensive tackles is how one evaluator described Becton physically. His ability to reach-block and drive defenders to the sideline is special. He can move, play with power and finish. He's the ultimate upside prospect after one standout season. After a mediocre 2018, Becton worked himself into shape and played like a top-10 pick under a new coach in 2019. If he keeps trending in this direction, someone might be getting a Hall of Fame-type player.

Giants fit: Becton could start at right tackle and eventually shift to become quarterback Daniel Jones' personal, long-term blindside protector. Becton played on both sides at Louisville. General manager Dave Gettleman has already said you could make the argument the No. 4 pick should have "gold jacket" potential. In that case, if the Giants don't trade back, Becton is the best option. He's the tackle who could produce greatness given his physical gifts. But Becton also comes with the most risk, which diminishes the chances he will be the Giants' pick.

Jets fit: The Jets would be nuts if they pass on Becton, who should be the No. 1 tackle on general manager Joe Douglas' draft board. What separates Becton from the rest is he can play left and right tackle, and his ceiling is higher than any of the other tackles in the draft. If they want to keep him at left tackle, where he played his final two seasons at Louisville, they could move recently signed George Fant to right tackle. Despite his size, Becton has the athletic ability to play in an outside zone scheme. He also can get to the perimeter on wide-receiver screens, a staple in coach Adam Gase's offense.

They said what?!

"Nobody can do what he does. They really can't. Where I had him a year [ago] was fourth or fifth round -- maybe take a chance on the guy. ... Now he does things on tape that nobody else can do. Physically they can't do." -- NFL scout

"He's an outlier because he brings that old-school size like Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden, Lincoln Kennedy with the new-school athletic skills of your 305 and 310 guy (his weight). And he's doing it at [6-foot-7], 360. We've never seen that before. There is nobody who really does that. Not even Trent Brown, who is almost 6-10, 400 pounds, moves like that." -- Duke Manyweather, Becton's trainer and an offensive line scouting and development consultant

"He's a human excavator. Has uncoachable traits, like his length, being 6-7, being 360 and being able to move the way he does. He has more flaws than Wirfs, Thomas or Wills, but he's raw." -- Cubelic

"It's ridiculous how good he can be. You don't have many people on this planet that are that big, that strong and that fast. ... We don't love his character. Just some lazy stuff, nothing major." -- NFL scout

"Trying to get around him is like orbiting the sun ... I believe he's going to get better. I don't believe he has reached his ceiling." -- Brian Baldinger, ex-NFL lineman and NFL Network analyst


The entire article is on page 8 of the top 4 oline thread.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf...ort/5159705002/

Report: Former Louisville football star Mekhi Becton had drug test flagged at NFL Combine

Thank you for posting that. I think if you take that article as a whole, it's kinda hard to just state he is "lazy." The worst quote was something about Just some lazy stuff. Nothing major. However, there were a lot of glowing reports, too.

For the record, in the beginning I had no idea how to rank them. I started studying them and Thomas was my top guy. However, they all have flaws and I am not so sure if they are as great as folks are making them out to be.

Right now, I really have no idea which guy will do well, be okay, or fail.

I think Thomas has the least bust-rate, but he has some issues w/footwork in pass pro. He might end up being just average.

The others have some really good attributes, but some big question marks. They all probably have a higher ceiling and a lower floor than Thomas.

Thus, I really don't know who we should pick if all four are available. I don't think all four will be, obviously. However, I'm just trying to point out that it's hard to say at this point in time.

Becton seems to have the biggest upside and the highest risk.

He has all you want in measureables. Big man with agility.

Prototype LT.

I doubt that this drug flag will hurt him.

After reading about all them Thomas seems the safest. But a lot of who takes who is all about "fit".

Interesting to see who will end up where.

My biggest concern with Becton is his weight. 368 is too much, I don't care how tall you are. Most guys don't slim down from their age 21 weight either. He might weigh 398lbs 5 years from now.

Vers, I think you hit the nail on the head. Thomas seems to be the safe pick. I think all these guys are gonna be good. I believe the offense system fit is where the we and other teams will have certain players in mind.

The article was never posted but all I remember is the poster was a reliable contributor on this board and he was quoting a report on Becton. It is a very important variable. I have stated several times that his character can change his value as many a big men before him didn't work hard to further themselves and it showed. Robinson actually was a perfect example of one who didn't work hard to improve.

If he is Lazy he is an AUTOMATIC Cross out for me. The million dollar question is that a FACT??? or just somebody spreading out a rumor so that he can drop to them??? I would like to know the "FACT" of his character.

Unfortunately all we should go on is film.

Unless there is a string of documented behavior like Mansell; I never pay attention to anyone's "opinion" in regards to a persons character or personality.

In fact unless I have had direct contact with a person I never judge them. The only exception would be if I know someone very well and that person had direct experience with the person in question.

I think unfair to make statements about people like Dorsey or anyone else unless you have had direct experience.

If there are verifiable incidences of Becton as a lazy player then put it out there and I will read it.

It is really unfair to a college prospect coming into the NFL and have someone with zero actual evidence call a young man lazy.

A lot goes into preparation to become a star college football player and first round prospect. Sure there have been players who busted after getting a deal and then never worked hard. It does happen.

But that is up to the scouts and their supervisors to find that out.

To you and tab: P-Dawg re-posted the article that mentions the "lazy" comment. It's about 7 posts up form your last post, bone.

I think the article should be read in entirety.

As an organization, he doesn't work for the Browns yet. They owe him nothing. Fair or unfair doesn't matter.

If there's rumors of one guy being lazy, even if you can't really verify it, it's still information to keep in mind.

I mean, two years ago, didn't Alonzo develop a feeling about Josh Rosen just on the basis of how his girlfriend (or ex-girlfriend) talked about him at the airport?


And guess what, so far, it's good that we steered clear of Rosen (my top guy in that draft)

I was the poster (or a poster) that mentioned his potential laziness based on that article (reposted earlier on this page). Not only was there the quote from the unnamed scout at the end, but also the little tidbit about him working himself into shape for 2019 season after a mediocre 2018. That sounds, to me, like a guy that was meh, and then got his act together for his contract year for the big payday. The wording in the article was that he had a mediocre 2018, then worked himself into shape and had a good 2019. That jumped out to me more than the quote from the scout.

In one of the threads there were tweets by Joe Tomas about Becton. I respect Joe's evaluations but don't always agree with the interpretation.

One of the observations Joe made was that Becton gets tired. This didn't seem to bother Joe but it bothers me. Is it because he is lazy and doesn't train hard enough? Is it because of his size?

Whatever the reason o-linemen shouldn't be getting tired. To me, this is the red flag

Film should ALWAYS be the 80%.

The Combine, private workouts, interviews, pro days, etc... are all just to confirm whether what you saw on film will translate to the next level and to make comparisons against the other guys in the class that might look as good on film.

If it isn't on film before you draft them, it isn't going to magically show up there after you draft them no matter how much they crush a workout.

I want to say I wasn't defending Becton. I just wanted to see the quote in context.

I'm at the point where I'm done evaluating or debating which OT is the best or worst. It's just too hard to tell given the unknowns of making the jump from college to the NFL for offensive linemen and I really don't have the desire to go crazy researching these guys. I just hope the Browns get it right, because they really do need a LT.

And don't think I was criticizing you. I replied to your post because I thought it was the most relevant to what I was going to say.

Other than;

"We don't love his character. Just some lazy stuff, nothing major." -- NFL scout

Is there anything else like examples? I have also read people love the guy.

If the Browns do their due diligence which they are paid to do and they find him lazy then so be it. I would agree take someone else.

Cory Coleman and Justin Gilbert were first rounders who didn't want to work or they just stunk.

That's an awfully big man to play every down on O. Not saying it can't be done. If you're looking at 360# plus, there are very few players that big, if any, in the entire NFL. As an interior OL you move less. At LT you're on an island and have to move around more than any other OL position. At RT you at least get some help from a TE sometimes to lessen your movement.

Huge guys on D are in a rotation. They may play a lot of snaps but they get plays off. So I'm not sure I would blame the fact he gets tired on him being lazy. And maybe the fact he gets tired is where the lazy comment comes from.

But expecting a guy his size to play every down on O for 16 games a season is something I would certainly consider. And as has been mentioned, it's highly unlikely he loses weight as he ages. More likely than not he'll gain.

I didn't think you were criticizing me.

Btw---I hope you are staying safe in that tough environment. I've been praying for you, even though I'm not a religious guy.

I don't think many people would consider me religious but I appreciate the prayers.

FWIW, Dan Shonka from Ourlads was on 92.3 today, and he said Tristan Wirfs will be a Pro Bowl guard in the NFL.

G or RT is where most had him projected before the combine. Then suddenly, that all went out the window. You know how the combine overrides game film evaluation and all.

Interesting.

The EF Hutton on offensive line play.

I'm reading smoke about this bunch planning to trade down to get Cleveland.

Ridiculous if they do.

Take the top tackle at 10!

How simple can it be???

What if the top 4 are all taken by #10. Not out of the realm of possibility.

NYG - check
LAC - check
CAR - check
ARZ - check
JAC - check

That would certainly increase the odds of Simmons falling into our laps and I am all for that. However, I could see 4 OTs go before us and Simmons as well. Looking at DTs, then i suppose, orrrrrr a trade back.

Chargers need a QB
Arizona is going for a WR
NYG who knows
JAX Who Knows
Carolina would not pass on Simmons

If we want Simmons we will need to trade up to #7 ... JMHO

Miami can take a tackle too if they don’t take Tua.

It truly is that simple.

Looking at draft sites, projections, etc., there are 4 OTs that show up as top 10 talent. Not all projections have all 4. But who says our front office sees all 4 as worthy of a top 10 pick? Or even 3? Maybe it is only 2 and those 2 could be gone by the time we are on the clock.

Just because Becton has a lot of fans on this board does not mean our FO thinks highly of him. Maybe the fact that Wirfs played RT in college, and was projected as a G in the NFL until recently, means our front office does not want to invest a top 10 pick on him and hope he can be a LT.

A team below us that is really jonesing for an OT could jump us to make sure they get one.

As Hammer says, it is possible that all 4 of them go in the top 9. LT is a premium position, and if these guys are seen as all that, you just never know. You just can't write off that possibility, not until pick #10 is on the clock.

CLE who knows

some good stuff here.

https://www.giants.com/video/2020-nfl-draft-preview-david-diehl-shaun-o-hara-break-down-o-line-class

If 4 OT are taken before #10, then there's a good chance that one of either Isaiah Simmons, Derrick Brown, or Jeffrey Okudah will be there for us. If that happens, you take them, and get on the phone with the Redskins about Trent Williams for our second 3rd round pick and a 2021 4th or 5th rounder (or a player).

pfff.... offer our 4th rounder. Tell him they get that or we take an OT with our 2nd rounder.

At least start off playing hardball and make them work for anything better.
BUT, there's still that contract thing.... you do NOT make a trade unless you've worked things out with his agent on what a contract needs to look like.


BUT, if 4 OT and Simmons is gone, that means there's a decent chance that the Skins took one of the OT, which means they're likely to release Trent after the draft.... so, stick with that 4th, or just wait for him to be released.

Plan A for a starting LT should never be a rookie Draft pick regardless of where they are taken.

JT (as we know) was an exception to the rule.

I hope that this will be addressed with a Veteran LT after the Draft.

So, I agree that we should not pigeonhole ourselves to one position with our 10th (or first) pick/selection.

That makes sense. But we have to come out of this draft with a viable starting LT, whether by draft or by trade.

No, we have to come out of this offseason with one.
It's just very, very preferable to have it be from the Draft because that means we have a shot at having fixed a problem for the next decade.

Just my opinion, Cap...........but, I don't know if it is all that simple. I am not saying I am correct because I haven't studied these dudes enough, but from what I have seen, they all have question marks.

Also, I agree w/Dave that if all four get picked, that means that guys like Simmons, Brown, and Okudah will fall.

I think trading down would be dumb.

After reading Joe T's "gun to head" rankings, I don't believe he really ranked them in that order. I somehow feel it is the exact opposite. I don't think Joe would give away anything. I am probably crazy, but I just feel that way.

3 QBs will go top 9: Burrow, Tua, Herbert
Simmons will go top 9
Okudah will go top 9
Young will go top 9


That’s 6 picks that I think are close to locks in the top 9

So, IMO, the worst case would be if Thomas and Wirfs are also selected.

At that point we choose between: Brown, Kinlaw, Becton, Wills ... or trade back

I agree on all points. Not so much supporting a trade down, just opining that it is not out of the question that all OT we are interested in are gone by #10.

I am not 100% sold on any of them. And if Simmons, Brown or Okudah are there, then that is a nice get at #10.

As I said in another thread, I'm rooting for as many QBs to go in front of us as possible. I think teams reaching for QBs is the way for one of those elite guys to fall to us at 10.

Hey... Trubisky went at pick 2. It's possible.

I didn't call him anything.

What I did do is say that the ONE FEAR I have on him is a common character of a very big man with athletic ability. "LAZY" as those are the top 50 picked OL that end up busting.

I described it as Wanting to be Great and willing to work hard for it. If he doesn't (note "IF") have that willingness to work hard ergo LAZY then I don't want him as he just went HIGH RISK.

I was asked to share the article and stated with all honesty that I read it on this board but did not read it in any report.

Hey it could be a poster just wanting us not to take Becton or want him as if that would make a difference...lol

But not a fact established but is the key in drafting him.

I think at worst he would make a Pro Bowl RG if he works hard. Not sure if he can make the grade for a LT.

But not a bad pick if he ends up being a Pro Bowl RG.

jmho

The article was re-posted on the previous page. A quote from an unnamed scout mentioned the L-word, in addition to a related statement in the body of the summary report.

Thanks as I missed it - probably was typing while it was posted. Knew it was from a poster I deemed reliable as in where I read it from a post.

But no where near as bad as I originally thought. usually the lazy with big guys is that they do not like to run...lol

But he did some physical work prior to the combine so he can be motivated. If in interview he wishes to become the best and "LOVES" Football not just play it cause he is the biggest guy and people expect you to but actually LOVE the game so he would dedicate himself to getting in best shape possible.

jmho

j/c

Despite the thoughts of many, I simply do not believe that there are four LT candidates ranked as worthy of the #10 pick. I've boiled it down to two of them in Thomas and Wills. That doesn't make me right as to who those top 2 will be, but to think there are four candidates at LT worthy of the #10 pick is just too far fetched for me to buy into.

You could be right.

The whole thing about RT To LT and they are "tackles".

That can be true. But I think coming into the NFL just as a rookie is enough on a plate. Add moving to a position where everything is reversed?

Not something that can not be done but as far as being a major contributor right away?

Becton is not a finished product. He needs coaching and development. Wirfs and Wills both look like they can be good linemen. But top ten LT's ?

Thomas is the most ready because he has played the position. But is really a top ten LT prospect or just the most ready to play the position?

I am a big believer in BPA. When BPA intersects need that is a true winner.

I do not want the Browns to take one these OL prospects if there is someone like Brown or Simmons available and they ranked them higher. If the second tier guys, ( Cleveland, Jones, Jackson) are not that far back and you could get them with value then go that route.

I have no problem with trading down and signing Williams or Peters and getting one the second three a little later.

"If" you are not passing on a guy that is highly ranked and there at ten (Simmons/Brown).

That is the only worrisome thought that crosses my mind with Thomas.

All I can think of is that Brian Robiskie was touted as "the most NFL-ready WR" in his draft. It didn't mean he was the best WR; not by a long shot.

At 38 years old, I worry about signing Peters. At his age, when his effectiveness drops off, it will drop off quicker than an anchor making its way to the ocean floor.

And I really have no idea in regards to how I have the LT's rated. I'm just a fan like everyone else. It's just that the idea of having four players at the same position, other than QB, being rated in the top 10 of your draft board just doesn't add up to me. I understand some have this draft class touted as being heavily laced with OT talent, but four of them in the top 10?

If teams actually pick all four of these guys that highly there are going to be a couple of teams very disappointed.

j/c

Cordy Glenn is out there as well.

I would have to do more homework on him. The Bills actually replaced him at LT with a draft pick named Jonah Williams who they drafted in the first round in 2019, a rookie. Glenn was only moved back to LT after Williams sustained a season ending injury. So Glenn was the Bills plan B and they went to the extent of using a first round draft pick to replace him.

I don't know if that means he isn't capable of doing the job but it certainly is cause for a question mark.

Yeah the Bills moved on from him and he was traded to the Bengals who haven’t re-signed him. I threw his name out as a possible stop gap player if we wanted to draft a lower ranked LT

Peters would be a one year deal. If they took one of the second tier guys and they needed to sit and learn. Peters would be a good one year fill.

I would like to get Trent Williams if the price is right. He has got 2/3 years left and is one of the top LT's in the league.

Having him and Conklin would be a big upgrade.

If they do like Ezra Cleveland and can get him where he is valued that could work.

Josh Jones by many accounts is a good fit for us. If we got Williams and traded down he could be a guy to go get late in the first round.

The Browns have a lot of options open at ten. There is a buzz about the Broncos, Bucs or Raiders wanting to move up.

I think we are in a good spot.

My main hope is Simmons at ten. Most likely not going to be there but there is hope.

I don't think people should think of Trent Williams as a short-term fix. He's 31 going on 32 by the season's start - hardly ancient for OL. He should be able to perform at a high, if not elite, level for 4-5 more years. Heck, we're talking about bringing Jason Peters in and he's almost 7 years older than Williams.

I believe Glenn has done his best work at RT.

jcing...

Just a couple of thoughts...one of the core principles of Moneyball is to accumulate draft picks, especially in the top 2 rounds.

These are Depodesta's principles, not GM Andrew Berry's or HC Stefanski's principles. If the Browns are dedicated to continuing to draft based on the Moneyball principles established by Depodesta, we should be able to recognize it quickly with a trade down from the #10 slot to add more picks in this draft or future drafts.

If the Browns stay at #10 and take the best OT available, they should be able to land one of the top 3 OTs or maybe one of the top 2 OTs.

If the Browns want a particular player, OT or LB, they are in a good position to trade up from 10 to maybe #5, without a ridiculous expense in draft capital.

If the Browns improve their record in 2020 and in the future, we might not be this close to elite talent at the top of the draft for some time. If there is a player near the top of this draft that can make a difference offensively or defensively, now might be the time to go after him.

If you think you know a player is good you are losing the battle.

I read you loud and clear.

I would love to come away with Simmons and Trent Williams.

That makes us a better right now. Our OL will be very solid. Simmons I believe can make an impact right away because of the skills he brings to multiple areas. He can pass rush. He can be used to cover from different packages. He is a sure tackler. He gets turnovers. He will help against Lamar who we have to beat.

If you can get two guys from any draft or trade that can upgrade a team like they can to this team.

Well worth the effort.

Bone...you nailed it !!

If the Browns are determined to build this team on the best players they can add to the roster, NOW IS THE TIME TO GO ALL OUT.

But going all out while setting at #10 might not be as expensive as some think. Simmons would be a difference maker at a position of need, imo.

Playing Moneyball to build a draft stockpile for NEXT YEAR is not the message you want to send to your team....go for it now, not next year.

Agree 100 percent...History lesson, Ernie Davis paired with Jim Brown...best 1/2 ever..never happened...Cinc Tackle last year, tore knee in practice..first rnd pick...didn't play a down...NOTHING is for sure except death and taxes....we'll know what the plan is soon....tomorrow, but injuries, character/want to, pandemic....time will tell how we did in the draft....hoping we get it right...like with Joe Thomas....GO Browns!!!

Sure what does he know compared to the experts on here.

Dudes stunk at evaluations so far ... just because he was a great player doesn’t mean he’s a great evaluator ...

Rumor has it Ted Williams sucked as a hitting instructor .... go figure ....

I was thinking more about teaching the position than evaluator. But when he talks about the LT he likes I listen.