Cleveland Indians Playoff Push

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the Superintendent?

I thought someone would say the "foreman". I guess that fits the same punchline to my joke setup.

If it wasn't going to rain, I'd take the little girl to the yard to see ARod get booed tonight. And I'm not sure he'll play too. I figure the Yanks will find some weird reason to sit him tonight.

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it's all baseball circles. i am willing to bet if you get the right clinic, you'd find a whole bunch of american players on the list.

as Hel would say, just cliquing

I thought cliques only existed here?

It was literally across the street from the campus. There was a news crew in front of A-Rod Park today so I figured that meant he got suspended when I was running errands.

I was listening to Bob Costas on the radio last night,and he said that the players are ticked off about this stuff too, and that there is talk that player would support a team cancelling a player's contract if he was caught doping like this.It would make sense for them to do so, so that the majority of guys who do things the right way aren't lumped in with the scum who lie and cheat their way to fame.

Imagine if Braun would have lost his $100 or so million he was still owed. That's a penalty.

I agree w Costas. If you cheat and get suspended, your contract is null and void. After suspension is served you have to negotiate a new contract and the team that had your contract at the time of suspension is the one you have to deal with. They can refuse to deal with you at which time you become a free agent.

And teams will deal with you knowing you are a juicer.

Suspension starts Thursday... so A-Rod is in the line-up tonight... playing 3rd, batting 4th, pleading the 5th...

I would agree except that it would help the Yankees. I cannot agree with anything that helps the Yankees

Also, once a player becomes a anchor on the payroll, it'd be awfully tempting to have the waterboy slip something into his drink

and, yet, Pete Rose still cannot get into the HoF.

Baseball is a freaking joke.

Hmm.. I know my thoughts / Costa's aren't perfect.. what other ideas can we try? And what about this.. What if a team is caught doping a player to get rid of a contract? 3 year post season ban? And how would that work?

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What if a team is caught doping a player to get rid of a contract?

I was joking, but if a team did try to do so and got caught, I don't think you'd really even need to punish them. Take away the next couple 1st rounders to show the players you won't tolerate it + hefty fine. But, the real punishment would be players deathly afraid to ever consider signing with that team again. They would almost have to sell the team and replace everybody.

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What if a team is caught doping a player to get rid of a contract?

I was joking, but if a team did try to do so and got caught, I don't think you'd really even need to punish them. Take away the next couple 1st rounders to show the players you won't tolerate it + hefty fine. But, the real punishment would be players deathly afraid to ever consider signing with that team again. They would almost have to sell the team and replace everybody.

Come to think over your response.. I'm agreed. That would be a dealth penalty for that FO, possibly ownership. I would refuse to sign with that club.

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and, yet, Pete Rose still cannot get into the HoF.

Baseball is a freaking joke.

Betting on baseball was a rule before, during and after Rose put on a jersey. The zero tolerance penalty of lifetime banishment was well known by Rose but that didn't stop him from doing the deed. The punishment fits the crime. Good riddance on his lying ash.

And if someone comes along and test positive three times, he'll be banished for life too. It fits.

Yeah.... but he just gambled.

These guys are outright, blatantly cheating.... and they get slaps on the wrist from the league followed by big contracts, awards and adulations.

Rose will get into the Hall of Fame.

It will happen when he's on his deathbed or after he dies.

Seems silly to prolong it, but I understand it to an extent.

He knew the rules. He knew the punishment. That is the one rule everyone knows you don't break in all sports. He did, he's gone.

How about instead of paying the player that money they still have to pay it out but to one of MLB's charities and that money still counts against them for luxury tax purposes etc

Most of the time teams don't know about players PED use. A-Rod signed the giant contract with the Yankees in 2007 and was outed as a PED user in 2009. Everyone thought he was the clean guy who would get all the records back.

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Rose will get into the Hall of Fame.

It will happen when he's on his deathbed or after he dies.

Seems silly to prolong it, but I understand it to an extent.

Joe Jackson has been off his death bed and in the ground since 1951, and he isn't. A .356 average over his 13-14 year career.

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How about instead of paying the player that money they still have to pay it out but to one of MLB's charities and that money still counts against them for luxury tax purposes etc

Yeah not sure the right thing here as it pertains to PEDs.

What would prevent a team like the Yankees in the midst of a terrible long term contract from spiking a waterbottle with PEDs to jettison a player?

When we're talking about 10s and 100s of millions it comes into play for sure.

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Yeah.... but he just gambled.

These guys are outright, blatantly cheating.... and they get slaps on the wrist from the league followed by big contracts, awards and adulations.

Cheating is part of sports. From spitballs, to stealing signs, holds in football, flopping in basketball, or anything else you can think of, it's normal. I'm not saying it's right, but it's sports, someone will always find an edge (chemical or not).

As for a slap on the wrist, Braun had his reputation destroyed and got fined $3.something million. That's hardly a slap on the wrist. And ARod will lose $~40million, a HOF spot, his legacy and won't get to finish his career. Sure, they get to keep the rest of the contract, but that's because the CBA and contracts haven't been changed in the PED era. Eventually, they'll put wording into the contracts to void them or make them X% less. This is still new to MLB, they'll get it right years from now, I hope.

As for Rose, again, he belongs right where he is. The rule and punishment is crystal clear. Bet on baseball and MLB catches you, you're gone forever. No playing, no managing, no HOF, no radio, no TV...nothing. So I don't get why people want him in the HOF. I used to think MLB would put him in as a player after he died, but I don't think so now. I think he's like Shoeless Joe, like another poster said, he's in baseball Hell for eternity.

Unreal.

Ridiculous. Come on Perez.

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Unreal.

This game sums up our season series against Detroit.

Double
Single
Walk
Homer
Without getting an out.

Destroys a great outing by Kluber and turns a 2 game deficit into 4 games. Jerk.

Ugh.

That was an ugly end to a very good game.

Kluber certainly deserved better.

words cannot even describe that 9th inning, but I'll try. Chris Perez shouldn't have been out there a 3rd straight game, but he's got to be better than that. not only giving up the 2 run lead, but giving them their own 2 run lead in a freaking flash. We were walking batters, giving up 1B on SOs (Santana!), and doing everything we could to just give up. I half-expected Prince to hit a grand slam his 2nd time up in the 9th just to end the misery. Instead, we got to witness our guys come up and feebly go 1-2-3 to end things. that was about the worst way we could have started this series and I'm leaving all of this terrible 1 paragraph formatting because that's just how I feel right now (cluttered and rambling).

Just Wow.

Maybe Terry will think again sending Perez to the mound three days in a row...even Acta did.

I stopped playing baseball at age like 13 or 14, so all my baseball playing days were pretty much crappy little league games that nobody cared for.

So like, how does Perez even look Kluber in the face after that performance? Guy went out and gave you a gem. 10 guys contributed to that performance (8 position players, Kluber, Smith) then 1 guy comes in and shreds it to dust (I realize Santana lost a bal in the dirt but I think that's irrelevant after the way that turned out, Perez was terrified to even put the ball over the plate)

I've given up game winning goals all the time, it's always tough to go back into that locker room, whether I just flat out got beat, or the defense let me down, but tonight was Perez's fault, all his fault. Not the team's, not Francona's, only Perez.

I saw the graphic they put up when Perez was warming up, He had pitched 5 of the last 7 days, a few times throwing 20 + pitches. It was his 3rd straight day out there. You have to know that you can't go out there, you can't put that on your manager. It's your arm. Awful. That kind of loss can deflate a team. We'll find out soon if they are still this resilient bunch.

Typical Cleveland kick to the balls. I don't care how many times it's happened, it still hurts, and it still sucks.

Who cares what Kluber thinks? He let the whole team down, not just one guy.

The pitcher win is one of the most irrelevant stats in sports.

bottom line is we have to hope we go on a tear and detroit implodes, not a snowballs chance at beating them head to head..Say what you want about pitching, yeah perez had no business out there, but you aren;t going to beat too many contenders scoring 2 runs. meanwhile our 56million dollar man is hitting sub 250 and we don't have a single player hitting over .300. That don't sound like a contending team. It seems to be feast or famine with the bats..i'd give up the 10+run games for a consistent 5-7 run games

Don't look at the batting average. That is not a good way to judge an offense.

we have the 5th best offense in MLB by runs/game
8th best by offensive WAR
and the runs/game is helped out alot by the 2nd most SB in MLB

we have been hot/cold at times, but our offense has been very good this year

I know it's an Indians thread, but this one is too good/important to not mention:

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On Wednesday, Blue Jays pitcher J.A. Happ will make his first major league start since May 7, when a line drive off the bat of Desmond Jennings fractured his skull, and the ensuing fall caused a sprain of his right knee.

I thought for sure he was gone for the year (at least) when I saw it. Kudos to him working hard on his recovery and best wishes in his first start back.

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Who cares what Kluber thinks? He let the whole team down, not just one guy.

The pitcher win is one of the most irrelevant stats in sports.

I'm just talking man to man. Guy goes out and gives you the pitching performance you need, and then you come out and blow it all up. I wasn't thinking pitching stat W as much as overall team W.

I am really glad I missed watching this game or I would have been super angry. Personally I think it's about time we look at Pestano or someone else as the closer. I mean really, you come in at a pivotal time and just blow it like that? I hope he was booed like crazy.

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I am really glad I missed watching this game or I would have been super angry. Personally I think it's about time we look at Pestano or someone else as the closer. I mean really, you come in at a pivotal time and just blow it like that? I hope he was booed like crazy.

It was a swift kick to the groin.

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I am really glad I missed watching this game or I would have been super angry. Personally I think it's about time we look at Pestano or someone else as the closer. I mean really, you come in at a pivotal time and just blow it like that? I hope he was booed like crazy.

you haven't watched much this year at all if you think Pestano is the answer.

Perez has actually been phenomenal since coming off the DL. But, he had nothing last night and it showed.

True, I haven't watched as many games this year as I would've liked. If what you said about Pestano is true than hopefully this was just a mistake by Perez. It's not like he can be perfect all the time but the circumstances and the loss are upsetting.

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True, I haven't watched as many games this year as I would've liked. If what you said about Pestano is true than hopefully this was just a mistake by Perez. It's not like he can be perfect all the time but the circumstances and the loss are upsetting.

Pestano has been so bad that they sent him down to Columbus

Some local media types are saying Francona shouldn't have tried to use Perez for the third time in 3 days. I don't think that so much, although I do think it was clear he had nothing after a hitter or two. If I have a criticism of Francona its that he stays with guys too long after it becomes apparent they don't have it. Rzepczynski should have been warming up to start the inning, especially knowing that the Tigers had Fielder, V Martinez, Dirks, Avila coming up - all lefties except VM. Once Fielder doubled and Victor singled, Perez needed to be replaced. There's no proving this, but I KNEW Avila was going deep when he stepped to the plate. Guy is hitting .199, and Perez threw him a crush-me fastball because he couldn't throw strikes. Its a movie I've seen enough times to be sick of, thats for sure.

Avila has been on a tear the last 2 weeks too. He's hitting .325/.386/.650 w/ 3HRs and 4x2B.

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True, I haven't watched as many games this year as I would've liked. If what you said about Pestano is true than hopefully this was just a mistake by Perez. It's not like he can be perfect all the time but the circumstances and the loss are upsetting.

Pestano has been so bad that they sent him down to Columbus

I hope that he is able to get his arm and stuff right while he's down there. Hopefully he pitches 3-4 times per week while he's down there, so we can try to get his stuff back on track, and get his velocity back.

If we could somehow get Pestano back to last years normal, it would be an enormous help to our playoff hopes.

All the more reason to go with a matchup approach. The Tigers were in the lefty-heavy part of their lineup. It was a must win situation - a 2 game swing - and Tito needed to be more hands-on than he was last night. It didn't help to replace Perez after it was 4-2 Tigers.

I don't think he should have put him out there in the first place (not only 3 straight but 5 in 7 games). But, once he did, he should have pulled the trigger on the change once it was clear he didn't have his stuff. Putting men on 1st and 2nd after already giving up 1 run was plenty of time to have Allen warmed and ready.

Ah well, time to go get them tonight. Hopefully, we continue our mastery of Verlander this year.

.. " I don't think he should have put him out there in the first place (not only 3 straight but 5 in 7 games). But, once he did, he should have pulled the trigger on the change once it was clear he didn't have his stuff.."
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Bingo , really simple !

I put a Chris Perez poster on my door and now it won't close

That's what happens when they confiscate weed.

Kluber to 15-day DL with right middle finger strain. Langwell recalled for now. He'll get sent down for Salazar tomorrow, I'm guessing.

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Kluber to 15-day DL with right middle finger strain. Langwell recalled for now. He'll get sent down for Salazar tomorrow, I'm guessing.

*Sigh* That sucks. Definitely the wrong time for the injury bug to hit our starters. With the issues our bullpen has had, we need our starters to be able to go deep into games, not sit them out entirely.

Trevor Bauer to the rescue!

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Kluber to 15-day DL with right middle finger strain. Langwell recalled for now. He'll get sent down for Salazar tomorrow, I'm guessing.

Did he hurt it when he extended it toward Chris Perez?

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Kluber to 15-day DL with right middle finger strain. Langwell recalled for now. He'll get sent down for Salazar tomorrow, I'm guessing.

Did he hurt it when he extended it toward Chris Perez?

Well .... we're now at the point where the best we can do is to exit this series no worse than we came in ...... and even that is a big question mark. We need a great performance from Salazar tomorrow to get us back on track.

I'm just about ready to concede the division. The Tigers have mauled us all season, now 11-3 against us. They just have better pitching and hitting, no way around it. I think we should focus on winning one of the wild cards. It is staggering how bad we have fared against the good teams, especially Detroit and the top 4 in the east. Now 9-30 against Boston, Tampa Bay, New York, Baltimore and Detroit. It's amazing we're 11 games over.

Its like we're not even playing the same game as detroit..our offense blows...it beats up on crap teams but doesn't do squat against decent to good teams. I don't see us doing much of anything as far as playoffs this year. I think we have some nice pieces, but man did we blow money on swisher..dude gives us nothing for a bat or defense. Reynolds is who he is..we knew that.. Bourn has been solid as has rayburn. But I don't think we should have stood pat at the deadline, we really needed to buy a pen arm and a bat. And guys who say batting average don't mean anything are just fooling themselves. Look at detroit or any of the top teams and their batting averages through the heart of the lineup..then look at ours. 5 games out isn't impossible but I think it's irrelevant. Its not like we are going to all of a sudden learn how to beat good teams. I think wildcard is our best bet. get into the playoffs, shorten the rotation and hope for some october magic. That being said..I think we are on our way for next year, a little retooling and we will be much stronger next year I think. This year has just been bonus.

Yea to me Swisher and Acab have been huge disappointments. Detroit seems to be set for the next few seasons. To have any shot they have to get a cleanup hitter. I think that is a must. I think the rotation will be fine if Salazar pans out. But I definitely think Acab will be traded in the offseason. Don't know what we could get for him. I would like to think Lindor is on the fast track to joining the club sometime next year. He's been doing great in akron so far in 19 games.

Yeah, we started out the year taking 2 of 3 against the Tigers, IIRC ..... and it's been all downhill since then.

They're just better. They're better on paper and they're better on the field.

They have Cabrera, Fielder, Verlander, and Scherzer. We (the Indians) damn near threw a parade for Nick Swisher.

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They're just better. They're better on paper and they're better on the field.

They have Cabrera, Fielder, Verlander, and Scherzer. We (the Indians) damn near threw a parade for Nick Swisher.

No doubt, and I like the Swisher comment.

None the less, the Indians seem to have a block against the Tigers. The record needs to be much closer.

They've blown a few wins against them, but for the most part, they're getting shelled. They can't pitch to the middle of their lineup, and we don't have a good enough offense to string together good innings of more than a run to keep up.

I'm not bagging on Nick Swisher. He's struggling, but he's a solid player. However, the Indians treated that signing like it was franchise-changing.

We can still go for the wild card, but it's clear we can't compete with the big dogs in the AL. Boston, Detroit, even Tampa.

So, how do we get better? Is this team going to add a player who hits over .300? We all know the window for this team to compete is closing. I just don't see how they are going to get good enough to beat those teams over the next few seasons before they start dealing guys for prospects.

The only way the indians compete with the tigers is if they raid their farm system to fill their holes. Dombroski has made some incredible trades over the years. None bigger than getting Miguel. He also traded for Doug Fister and Anibal Sanchez. Plus this year he made some nice trades getting Veras, and Inglesias to fill in for Peralta. I know their owner loves to spend, but their Gm has made all the right moves building an all star team in a 5 year period.

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The only way the indians compete with the tigers is if they raid their farm system to fill their holes. Dombroski has made some incredible trades over the years. None bigger than getting Miguel. He also traded for Doug Fister and Anibal Sanchez. Plus this year he made some nice trades getting Veras, and Inglesias to fill in for Peralta. I know their owner loves to spend, but their Gm has made all the right moves building an all star team in a 5 year period.

Pretty much. They have a very generous owner out there who wants to win. Not only did they make a great deal for Cabrera, but then they locked him in long term. Then they went out and got him protection with Fielder.

We can't compete with that with what we have now. My question is, how do we get better? Where's the light at the end of the tunnel?

Unless they start spending, which I doubt, the only way is to follow the tampa bay model of drafting great talent. The only guy they locked with a big contract was Longoria. The rest they just trade off to get young players with cheap salary. It's worked for them the past 6 years. Even the pirates have turned it around with some great draft picks, and a few nice trades recently.

That's not completely the case.

Both games that we've played against them this series, they won in one inning. They've scored 9 runs in 2 innings, and a total of 0 in the other 16.

As for the window on this team...it seems to me like its wide open. Kluger, Masterson, Salazar, and Kazmir are young guys. Only Ubaldo is older and he is gone when his contract ends.

The offense is young where it needs to be too. Kipnis, ACab, Chisenhall, Brantley, Santana, Gomes...these are all young guys. Only Bourn is over 30 of our core.

Yea Swisher, Reynolds, Giambi, and Aviles are over 30...but this core is young. The window is open on this squad.

Masterson is a free agent in 15, will be interesting to see if they pony up the cash to resign him.

Much of our starting pitching is younger too.

Masterson is 28. McAllister is 25, Kluber is 27. Salazar (who I really like) is only 23. Tomlin is reportedly making good progress following his surgery, and is 28. He could be back with the Tribe in late August. I like him as a #5.

That could be a nice starting 5 ...... plus we have guys like Carrasco and Bauer in the Minors, who have shown promise, but just haven't yet put it all together. Both guys have great stuff though.

We gotta get the bullpen back in order though. Getting Scott Barnes back from injury might be a step in the right direction. He's a solid lefty. Getting Pestano back on track would be huge for this team. It would also be nice if we could get Hagadone straightened back out. Relief pitchers are a strange lot though .... and the same guys who killed us this year might be our saviors next year.

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That's not completely the case.

Both games that we've played against them this series, they won in one inning. They've scored 9 runs in 2 innings, and a total of 0 in the other 16.

As for the window on this team...it seems to me like its wide open. Kluger, Masterson, Salazar, and Kazmir are young guys. Only Ubaldo is older and he is gone when his contract ends.

The offense is young where it needs to be too. Kipnis, ACab, Chisenhall, Brantley, Santana, Gomes...these are all young guys. Only Bourn is over 30 of our core.

Yea Swisher, Reynolds, Giambi, and Aviles are over 30...but this core is young. The window is open on this squad.

We've scored 3 runs in 2 games, and we still get to face Scherzer.

Kipnis, Brantley, Cabrera, those are nice pieces, but will another year or two of seasoning really put that lineup above the Tigers? That's my point. That team isn't going away.

It just sounds like we will be having this exact same conversation next year.

Well, with the new CBA, you have to give up draft picks in exchange for signing certain free agents. (and I am too lazy to look up what the criteria is, and how the polls of picks is divided up among teams losing free agents. I know it's not a straight one for one exchange) Teams still have to use the draft to build the bulk of their rosters, so I wonder how many free agents will be signed by teams in the future. (especially the "good but not great" ones) We didn't have to give up our 1st round pick for signing Swisher because of our draft position, and I doubt that we would have signed him if we would have had to do so.

I do think that free agency will become less important, at least as far as the mid range free agents that will cost draft picks are concerned. The upper level guys will still find buyers, even if they cost 1st round draft picks.

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We've scored 3 runs in 2 games, and we still get to face Scherzer.

Kipnis, Brantley, Cabrera, those are nice pieces, but will another year or two of seasoning really put that lineup above the Tigers? That's my point. That team isn't going away.

It just sounds like we will be having this exact same conversation next year.

The Indians are top 5 in runs scored in all of baseball and something like top 12 in batting average and 11 in home runs... The Tigers just happen to be above them in all 3 categories plus the Tigers are well ahead of them in team ERA....

Overall I think the Indians are in pretty good shape and might just need a little tweaking...

j/c

You know what's a tough pill to swallow in these first two games?.....keeping them scoreless 16 of the 18 innings played thus far, yet we've been outscored 9-3 and down in the series 0-2.

That's rough.

It's a good point. But if we can find production from other spots...then yes. If Swish and Reynolds were replaced with hitters that can do what they were brought here to do...then we'd be able to make big time strides.

If our 1B spot was filled by a big hitter...the offense would hum. If the RF spot was filled with a hitter, the offense would hum.

The team right now has solid pieces...that one to put the offense over, the big home run threat...that's what they lack. Find it, and we have a very different conversation

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It's a good point. But if we can find production from other spots...then yes. If Swish and Reynolds were replaced with hitters that can do what they were brought here to do...then we'd be able to make big time strides.

If our 1B spot was filled by a big hitter...the offense would hum. If the RF spot was filled with a hitter, the offense would hum.

The team right now has solid pieces...that one to put the offense over, the big home run threat...that's what they lack. Find it, and we have a very different conversation

Kinda crazy that we have done OK this season (aside from games against DET) despite a lack of production from 1B and 3B which is usually where you get good pop.

I'm OK with what the outfield gives you. They're excellent in chasing down fly balls (although Stubbs can drive you crazy) and the provide good speed in the lineup, and Brantley is rock solid all around, but you can't have Swisher and Chisenhall/Reynolds whiffing at everything. Both are pretty good on defense, but you need something better there in the lineup.

Since Friday, the striking out is also ridiculous. I understand it's good pitching, especially that young arm down in Miami, but these are humiliating themselves out there.

They've scored 10 runs in their last 5.

j/c
well another crap game from the indians, Salazar has a nice fastball, but thats it, his changeup sucks..he's going to need another pitch to have any staying power. He's got the perfect makeup for a closer. Crazy good fastball.. Tito gambled and cost salazar the chance at the win. You dont gamble on Mcab going 0-4.. once again our offense just can't score. Played them tough, but it seems no matter what, tigers will beat us. frustrating

were making it real tough on em

What a great block by Gomes to save a WP, and a run.

j/c...

ugh.

I think that Salazar has a decent change-up. His fastball is electric, and he gets tremendous movement on it.

He made one mistake, and got thumped for a HR. He went 7 innings, struck out 10, and only walked 1. That's great, especially against a talented lineup like the Tigers have.

If you watch Salazar, his change-up is his weakest pitch so far. That's the one pitch he gets beat up on. Save for the Cabrera HR.

IMO, if there is one pitch Salazar needs to develop it's the change-up. Having said that, he looks to have a bright future. Should replace Jimenez.

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Masterson is 28. McAllister is 25, Kluber is 27. Salazar (who I really like) is only 23. Tomlin is reportedly making good progress following his surgery, and is 28. He could be back with the Tribe in late August. I like him as a #5.

That could be a nice starting 5

McAllister, Kluber, and Tomlin are all #4 or #5 pitchers. Masterson is an O.K. #2. That is not a nice starting 5.

I don't see McAllister and Kluber as 4s or 5s at all. I think that's ridiculous.

KLuber has changed his grip on his fastball, and he has been very good since. He's got a solid curveball to go along with a nice fastball. His pitches move. He doesn't walk guys. I see him as a #3, at the least .... and he could become a #2.

McAllister might be more of a #4 guy ..... but he's a solid 4. He might become a 3 in time. I like a lot about the way he pitches. My biggest problem with him right now is that he walks too many guys. He's not a strike out pitcher, which is what I think a lot of people associate with a 2 or 3 ..... but if he cuts down his walks I think that he can become a solid 3.

I do agree that Tomlin is a #5, but probably a solid #5. I am interested to see how his velocity is after his arm surgery.

Masterson has an off game now and then, but he has been nothing short of outstanding this season. He goes deep in games, and averages more than a strike out per inning pitched. He is almost at a 3-1 ratio strike outs to walks. That's outstanding. He averages almost 7 innings per start. He has an ERA of 3.46. He is tied for 5th in wins in all of MLB. He is 4th in innings pitched. He is 6th in strike outs. What is it about him that makes you see him as only an "OK #2"?

Salazar pitched a great game. When you throw that hard, you're going to give some up. It's not like he pitched against the houston astros.

Not to be vindictive, but have we dusted off Miguel Cabrera even once this year? Because I'm getting a little tired of watching him abuse our pitchers like rented mules. I wouldn't even mind if someone left a baseball stitches imprint on his left buttcheek. Just to change the pace, and give him something to think about - he's way too comfortable at the plate against us.

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Not to be vindictive, but have we dusted off Miguel Cabrera even once this year? Because I'm getting a little tired of watching him abuse our pitchers like rented mules. I wouldn't even mind if someone left a baseball stitches imprint on his left buttcheek. Just to change the pace, and give him something to think about - he's way too comfortable at the plate against us.

He's abused every pitcher he's faced for the last year and a half. He's the best hitter in baseball. It's not just against us.

6 HR's, just this year against us. 19 HR's since 2010. Thats crazy. We'd be better off walking him, even with men on base.

At least the Browns play tonight. Even if it is crappy unwatchable preseason football.

Wow, Mark Reynolds DFA'd.

saw that...guess that's what happens when you bat .215 and strike out more often than you get on base.

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I don't see McAllister and Kluber as 4s or 5s at all. I think that's ridiculous.

McAllister's underlying numbers are not good (xFIP of 4.49, he doesn't strike enough guys out, and he has average control).

Kluber has never had this kind of success at any level. So while he has been good this year it is unlikely to continue. Guys usually don't start succeeding at age 27 and sustain it very long.

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Masterson has an off game now and then, but he has been nothing short of outstanding this season. He goes deep in games, and averages more than a strike out per inning pitched. He is almost at a 3-1 ratio strike outs to walks. That's outstanding. He averages almost 7 innings per start. He has an ERA of 3.46. He is tied for 5th in wins in all of MLB. He is 4th in innings pitched. He is 6th in strike outs.

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He is tied for 5th in wins in all of MLB.

Wins.

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What is it about him that makes you see him as only an "OK #2"?

Everything you just described screams #2 starter. And being a #2 starter is not a bad thing. How many true #1 guys are there in the league right now, 10? 15? (Kershaw, Wainwright, Harvey, Strasburg, Darvish, Scherzer, Felix, Fernandez, Lee, Sale, I would still place Verlander here because of his track record, and Price. That's off the top off my head, forgive me if I missed a few).

I consider wins to be an extremely important part of being a #1 pitcher. Don't see many 6-12 "#1" pitchers.

As I said, Masterson eats innings, he averages a strike out per inning pitched, and he has an excellent ERA, Maybe we have different definitions of a #1 starter. Are there better pitchers than Masterson? Sure. Does that mean that he's not a #1? I don't think so. He's not a top 5 starter in baseball ..... but he's right there in many important categories. I think that he has proven that he can beat any Cy Young pitcher thrown against him. That's a #1 to me.

I like McAllister for a #4, borderline #3 guy. He does walk too many guys, but isn't afraid to go after anyone. I think that he'll continue to develop, and could be a #3 ... maybe as soon as next year.

As I said earlier, I also really like Kluber. He changed his grip and his fastball now explodes. He has 116 strike outs and only 26 walks in 122 innings. That's beyond solid.

I look at our young guys, and I am amazed at how well they do at not beating themselves.

Masterson: 163 IP, 3.46 ERA, 166 K, and 60 BB
Kluber: 122 IP, 3.54 ERA, 116 K and 26 BB.
Salazar: 13.2 IP. 3.29 ERA, 17 K and 2 BB
McAllister: 83 IP, 3.47 ERA, 59 K and 27 BB

While Salazar is still very young, his stuff is just explosive. We don't have a huge Major League track record to review, but his arm is just incredible. He has a plus level fastball and excellent change up. I read somewhere that he can go from a 97 MPH fastball to a sub 80 change up with exactly the same arm motion. That's impressive. I saw that in his 1st start too. He had guys screwing themselves into the ground like Bug Bunny pitching. lol He also hits his top end pitching speed right out of the chute. I heard today on a PD show that he was throwing 95 MPH in the 1st inning against the Tigers. That's powerful stuff there. If I was a MLB pitcher, I would almost try to blow out my arm so I could have Tommy John surgery. lol Seriously though. it almost seems like every pitcher who has surgery comes back stronger than before these days.

Yeah, I like our rotation, and they are young to boot. They should continue to grow and learn more about their craft. I am excited for the future.

I agree with that. Aces don't have letdowns like he did the other night in a game where you had your heart ripped out the night before, by a division foe nonetheless.

He's a really good #2 on a legitimate contending for a WS team.

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I consider wins to be an extremely important part of being a #1 pitcher. Don't see many 6-12 "#1" pitchers.

Are you kidding? You know pitcher wins is among the worst stats in sports, right? It literally tells nothing about how a player performed.

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Maybe we have different definitions of a #1 starter.

If you are saying Masterson is the the #1 of the Indians, then yes, I agree with you. If you are saying Masterson is a prototypical number one starter, then no, I don't agree with you and you are wrong.

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he has an excellent ERA

Masterson is 36th in the majors in ERA. Behind greats like Hector Santiago, Kyle Lohse, and Travis Wood.

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I think that he has proven that he can beat any Cy Young pitcher thrown against him. That's a #1 to me.

Seriously?!?! What does Masterson have do with the opposing pitcher? His teammates are the ones that have to face him. Are you saying he tries harder when he knows he's facing a good pitcher?

If that's your definition of a #1 then you're right, we don't agree at all. Because you are wrong.

Indians DFA'ed Mark Reynolds.

Link

The Indians wouldn't be where they are now if it wasn't for Reynolds crazy hot start. But he has been awful lately.

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Indians DFA'ed Mark Reynolds.

Link

The Indians wouldn't be where they are now if it wasn't for Reynolds crazy hot start. But he has been awful lately.

Funny enough that he still has more RBI than Nick Swisher.

That's because Nick Swisher doesn't have Nick Swisher batting in front of him (and Carlos Santana).

How is it that Giambi still has a spot ??

Veteran presence.

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While Salazar is still very young, his stuff is just explosive. We don't have a huge Major League track record to review, but his arm is just incredible. He has a plus level fastball and excellent change up. I read somewhere that he can go from a 97 MPH fastball to a sub 80 change up with exactly the same arm motion. That's impressive. I saw that in his 1st start too. He had guys screwing themselves into the ground like Bug Bunny pitching. lol He also hits his top end pitching speed right out of the chute. I heard today on a PD show that he was throwing 95 MPH in the 1st inning against the Tigers. That's powerful stuff there. If I was a MLB pitcher, I would almost try to blow out my arm so I could have Tommy John surgery. lol Seriously though. it almost seems like every pitcher who has surgery comes back stronger than before these days.
.

Salazar has an amazing fastball, i'll give you that, but his change up is anything but excellent..it never dipped sub 80, it was like 86-88 last night, thats not good enough change, and detroit teed off on it all game. He needs another breaking pitch, i think he could add a slider and it would take him to another level.

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While Salazar is still very young, his stuff is just explosive. We don't have a huge Major League track record to review, but his arm is just incredible. He has a plus level fastball and excellent change up. I read somewhere that he can go from a 97 MPH fastball to a sub 80 change up with exactly the same arm motion. That's impressive. I saw that in his 1st start too. He had guys screwing themselves into the ground like Bug Bunny pitching. lol He also hits his top end pitching speed right out of the chute. I heard today on a PD show that he was throwing 95 MPH in the 1st inning against the Tigers. That's powerful stuff there. If I was a MLB pitcher, I would almost try to blow out my arm so I could have Tommy John surgery. lol Seriously though. it almost seems like every pitcher who has surgery comes back stronger than before these days.
.

Salazar has an amazing fastball, i'll give you that, but his change up is anything but excellent..it never dipped sub 80, it was like 86-88 last night, thats not good enough change, and detroit teed off on it all game. He needs another breaking pitch, i think he could add a slider and it would take him to another level.

Take a look at his first start this year. His change-up dropped under 80 on occasion, yet he maintained the same arm motion and slot as his fastball that hit 97. It was incredible. His change-up is a quality pitch. Maybe he was off a bit yesterday ... I dunno ..... but he has a Major League level change-up. His fastball is electric, and it moves.

So they say !

.. Well then what is Swisher there for or Rayburn or Aviles ..

j/c
Looks like this game is over already! McAllister just doesn't have it tonight and the Tigers just can't seem to miss. What a crappy series..... Our playoff chances may have just been crushed!

I talk up McAllister ..... and he implodes.

Ugly game tonight, for certain.

This series should motivate Antonetti to make a few big offseason moves. He has to do everything in his power to get a cleanup hitter. We will never beat Detroit with the lineup we have in place. Even against teams like Boston, we are outmanned on offense. But I am very confident Salazar will be our ace by sometime next year. Even cynical Bill Livingston was writing that Salazar could be the next star in Cleveland. This guy has a Justin Verlander arm. Those don't come around very often. He will be a huge addition to our staff next year. Just need to find a hitter.

I blame Perez for this whole series. And Francona. Ugh.

Need to pick up the pieces somehow.

Time for a players only meeting. Then come out with another 8 game win streak.

Just watched the video of Raburn showing up the pitching staff.

Well,

they play an awful Angels team this weekend, get 2 of 3 and get back on track. Detroit is going to NYY where they historically have struggled in the regular season (not necessarily the playoffs though) and if they lose 2 of 3, we get back one game.

We just have to be within 3-5 by the end of this month. September is an easy schedule, including a large number of games against division teams in which we are 24-10 (also 3 against Detroit).

Survive this month and be in striking distance and we're there. We're 1.5 out of the wild card

What does historically struggling have to with this season?

The division is all but over. Detroit has whipped us every which way. Very concerned that series might have taken the wind out of their sails. They have a very legit shot at the wild card, but their holes are very obvious, don't think they have enough to get it done. See them winning 83-88 games.

We really need to get this turned back around again.

Losing 5 in a row hurts our chances at the postseason a lot.

Same old Tribe

7 GB in the Central, 4 GB in the Wild Card.

Shut 'er down Virgil, she's suckin' mud.

I'm not ready to do that yet. This team is just as likely to go win 15 in a row as they are to lose another 4 or 5 in a row. They are a textbook definition of streaky .... good and bad. lol

Not with Kluber possibly done for the year and McAllister struggling to find the strike zone. I think Salazar can help, but I also think the Indians are concerned with his innings just a year after TJ surgery.

And then there's the offense, or should I say the lack of offense. The guys that were counted on to fill the heart of the lineup - Swisher, Cabrera, and Reynolds - are either under-performing badly, or gone.

The team made positive strides this year, but not enough to contend throughout the season.

Yeah, probably ..... but I'm not ready to give up yet.

This team has a way of looking done, only to bounce back.

Biggest disappointment so far: Nick Swisher. I think the Indians underestimated how much it helped him to be surrounded by the likes of Jeter, Granderson, Cano, Rodriguez, Texeira, etc. The last three years with NY he averaged 27 HR and 88 RBI. This year he has 11 HR and 35 RBI, and projects to have 15 HR and 49 RBI at the end of the year. Clearly, he can be a nice piece of the offensive puzzle, but he can't be the main man. The Indians have to find their clean-up hitter this off season and, imo, he's not in the organization right now. Swisher needs to hit 5 or 6, not 2 or 4.

I agree with you about him not being the main man. BUt

Also, of course his RBI are going to go down as a result of being in a weaker lineup. That's not his fault, but the fault of the rest of the lineup. His home runs are most likely down because he no longer plays half of his games at Yankee Stadium. The thing that is most concerning (and is probably an aberration) is that his OBP is down 20 points from his career average.

He's also lost a little bit of value because he no longer plays a corner outfield spot.

I would say the biggest disappointment is Asdrubal Cabrera. Dude can't even muster a 300 OBP.

I'm firmly of the opinion that Swisher isn't healthy from his shoulder injury from early in the year. He's not been the same player since that injury and he was a real good player before it.

I disagree. To me the biggest disappointment, collectively, has been the bullpen. For so many guys with good track records to all implode this year is incredibly disappointing to me. The bullpen was a team strength coming into this season. Now it is probably the biggest question mark the team has, and an area that is certainly going to have to be addressed in this coming off-season.

You can't really say that Perez and Smith imploded - Perez's meltdown vs Detroit notwithstanding. They have both been pretty much what they were last year, although Perez was on the DL. Pestano was also injured before his string of bad outings. I've said it before - the Indians should forbid their players from playing in the World tournament when it comes up next time - I think Pestano may have hurt himself there. The guy who really disappointed in the bullpen was Hagadone. I thought he might be something special - maybe he still will - but right now he can't throw strikes.

Perez went through a point where he struggled to break 90 on the gun. He said that he wasn't hurt, but he couldn't get anyone our throwing 89 MPH fastballs. I don't know if he was hurt or not, but he definitely had problems. Same thing with Pestano ...... and Hagadone ..... and just about every other reliever they started to count on. (except for maybe Cody Allen) No matter who they started to depend on, they developed issues. It almost seemed to be contagious.

Was Perez really any good in the first place?

Regarding Swisher having less opportunities for RBI's with the Indians weaker lineup; last year he hit .301 in 146 AB with RISP. This year, after about 2/3 of the season, he has hit .222 in 99 AB with RISP. He's tracking towards a roughly equal number of AB with RISP. I think Log might be right about his shoulder being hurt worse than we thought. I didn't discount the injury, but IIRC, he didn't even go the DL. Maybe he should have.

In the past 4 years he has saved 115 games out of 130 opportunities. So, on average he has saved 28-29 games per season ... and has blown right around 4 per year.That's pretty solid, and about on par with most closers.

I know that people hate Perez because he creates drama. (to put it nicely) However, he has been very effective as a closer. (especially given that he has played on some pretty bad teams, and up to this year, some really bad defensive teams)

That is interesting and thanks for pointing it out. On the surface you would think the Yankee lineup would provide more opportunities for RBI.

I guess the bottom line is this, Swisher isn't hitting as well this year as his career averages.

Saves, like wins, are awful at telling the story of how a player is actually performing. A player can come in with a three run lead, give up two runs, and still get a save. In any other situation that would be a failure, but because he gets a "save" it is a success.

Perez is an average reliever who, as a result of when he is brought in the game, gets lots of saves.

There was an interesting poll on cleveland.com this past week right after the blown save vs Detroit last Monday:

Which Cleveland Indians closer would you pick to finish off a big game?

Doug Jones 39.92% (1,161 votes)

Jose Mesa 26.48% (770 votes)

Bob Wickman 23.62% (687 votes)

Chris Perez 9.97% (290 votes)

Total Votes: 2,908

**********

Before Monday's game he would probably have finished higher, if not at the top.

(P.S. I voted for Mesa. God help me.)

How can you have a credible poll without Joe Borowski?

Of that list my top 2 would be Jones and Wickman.

At the risk that you are being sarcastic, the poll was based on guys with career saves over 100. Borowski had 46. Plus, he was excruciating to watch ... it was like a root canal every time he pitched.

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Saves, like wins, are awful at telling the story of how a player is actually performing. A player can come in with a three run lead, give up two runs, and still get a save. In any other situation that would be a failure, but because he gets a "save" it is a success.

Perez is an average reliever who, as a result of when he is brought in the game, gets lots of saves.

Yes, and no.

Closers are a breed that takes immense pressure day after day. Sure they might get a game where they come in with a 3 run game, but they are also just as likely to come in damn close to being cold after their offense gets them a 1 run lead in the top of the 9th. Besides, fans usually don't remember when a "regular" reliever blows a game by giving up 4 runs in the 8th inning to take the loss ...... but let a closer give up 2 runs to blow the save, and they are dodging pitchforks and hellfire, and the fans can tell you exactly what happened 3 weeks later. It's a whole different ballgame.

I always like Dave LaRoche and Jim Kern.

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Closers are a breed that takes immense pressure day after day.

I would argue that the guy who comes in the game in the 8th inning with two men on and no outs is under more pressure.

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but they are also just as likely to come in damn close to being cold after their offense gets them a 1 run lead in the top of the 9th.

Pitchers are generally given plenty of time to warm-up. If a guy is coming in cold someone is doing something wrong.

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Besides, fans usually don't remember when a "regular" reliever blows a game by giving up 4 runs in the 8th inning to take the loss ...... but let a closer give up 2 runs to blow the save, and they are dodging pitchforks and hellfire, and the fans can tell you exactly what happened 3 weeks later. It's a whole different ballgame.

Players that are that mentally fragile don't make it to the majors. They are weeded out in the minors. If you can pitch in the 8th inning, you can pitch in the 9th inning. You really think they are worried about what the fans think of them?

It's literally the same ballgame.

Do you think that relievers are up and down from year to year strictly because of physical issues? I don't.

There are guys who are spectacular one year, and then can't see to get a guy out the next. They get traded, and suddenly they are unhittable again,Someone said that run blocking was 70% attitude on another thread .... well relievers are probably 50% - 90% mental. They blow up, they recover, and they are amazingly inconsistent.

Like I said, if you are a basket case as you are describing, then you probably never make it to the majors.

Pitching is pitching. Relief pitchers performances are so volatile because we rely on small sample sizes to show how good they are.

That's not the case though. Relievers implode and revive their careers fairly regularly.

Many relief pitchers, (especially if they can throw left handed) are really inconsistent. So many knock around the Majors because teams always need relief pitchers, and many teams see a guy's stuff and think that they can fix him.

I think that middle relievers are probably the flakiest guys on a Major League roster. They can implode, and recover, at any time.Hell, look back over some of our own relievers who have been great one year, then had to be demoted from a role the next year, or even traded away, because they couldn't perform anymore. Then they recover the next year.

I think that it was terry Pluto who wrote a really good articly on this very subject a few months ago. I wish I could find it because he did more research than I care to do.

I'm not sure how this is argument supports Perez.

It was actually in response to the part about "mentally weak" players.

Back to closers ..... I something think that it's worse for a closer to come in with a 3 run lead, because it's almost like they relax and give u a run or 2 because of it.

I do think that Perez has something physically wrong with him this year. His velocity has been so up and down, that it almost has to be the case.

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because it's almost like they relax and give u a run or 2 because of it.

If that's true, then that player shouldn't have a spot on the roster.

Perez's numbers indicate a pitcher who has been average for most of his career. Nothing has changed.

Alright, I'm going on a rant... (feel free to ignore)

There are definitely some disappointments thus far. Swisher being THE biggest one. Myers getting $7 mil to be injured is another. Reynolds and his $6mil deal getting released can also be added to the list. I'm not writing off Swisher and his contract yet, but Chris Antonetti has pissed away nearly $15million in contracts for Myers/Reynolds similarly to what he did in 2012 with one year contracts/trades for players like Sizemore (5mil), Lowe (5mil), Kotchman (3mil). In my opinion, there needs to be some pressure and accountability placed by the fans towards the GM's office. Since CAs been in charge...we've authorized the burning of tens of millions. I know people want to immediately hate the ownership for a lack of spending money, but when they chose to do so, these big contracts have failed miserably. Antonetti is becoming known for making poor offseason deals and little in-season deals come the trade deadline. It's frustrating to say the least.

Francona takes some heat from me as well. Outside of him keeping starting pitchers in far too long than they need to be (a prior rant), I personally think our lineup is in complete disarray. Switching spots of Swisher for Cabrera? Are you serious? I was against this move the minute it happened and was against Swisher batting 4th the day he was signed. Both Santana and Brantley provide more production than Swisher ever will at this point in his career. Cabrera has also been a major disappointment who, for whatever reason, thinks he is a long ball hitter. His value has dropped consistently since 2010 or 2011. I can't remember the good year he had.

Anyways, here is my recommended daily lineup.

Bourn
Cabrera
Kipnis
Santana (DH)
Brantley
Swisher
Gomes (C)
Chisenhall
Stubbs

These DAILY lineup changes Francona is compelled to do have really effected the team, I think. Surely, against a dominant LHP stack it with righties and vice-versa. But with Francona, each day provides a different lineup structure. How can players like...

--Brantley get in a grove when he's batted in 8 of 9 positions in the order THIS YEAR? OR

--Santana who rotates, DH, C, 1B every other day and will hit anywhere from 4-7? OR

--Having a rookie in Chisenhall that we play twice a week who supposedly "needs more at-bats" at the major league level to see his worth. OR

-- Batting Rayburn (who I know has been playing well) ahead of Santana and Brantley on occasion. That's crazy.

-- Yes, Terry. Giambi was a great player. That doesn't mean you need to DH him every other time a RHP is starting....he's batting .200 at best.

There is zero consistency to this lineup in any way, thus no environment of regularity for the players. What ever happened to the Mike Hargrove lineups that only changed on Sundays and double-headers?

Again, sorry for the rant.

Hitters should be able to hit no matter where they are in the lineup. The Rays, and Joe Maddon, constantly change lineup positions.

There is no way Cabrera and his sub-.300 OBP should be batting second. I would bat Kipnis 2nd.

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Hitters should be able to hit no matter where they are in the lineup. The Rays, and Joe Maddon, constantly change lineup positions.

There is no way Cabrera and his sub-.300 OBP should be batting second. I would bat Kipnis 2nd.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about Cabrera, but who else is fits the profile of being a legit #2 batter in the lineup? Kipnis would be a good argument but has much better production that makes a difference before your cleanup hitter. Would you switch Kipnis and Cabrera? And someone like Brantley behind a power hitter protects he makes good contact and gets on base..Said power hitter may get more strikes because the pitcher knows how much contact Brantley can make after him. If guys are already on base, it exacerbates the issue for the pitcher. He protects the guy in front of him.

But honestly, Cabrera batting 2nd is almost a default spot for me. I don't know where else you'd put him if hitting is all the same for you. He does put the ball in play and that can make a difference when someone like Bourn is on base, and in and some instances, Stubbs too if he starts off an inning. Either way, he is becoming a concern. I wouldn't bat him 4th is the point of my previous point.

You don't like Cabrera at batting second. OK, where would you put him?

An ideal lead off hitter would be a high OBP guy with speed. Bourn or Brantley would fit that role pretty well, so I would have one of them lead off.

Bourne/Brantley

I would then bat Kipnis second as it would maximize his at-bats with men on base.

Brantley/Bourn
Kipnis

Batting third/fourth I would have either Swisher or Santana, the teams two best power hitters. They would have a good chance of batting with someone on base and have the power to drive many guys on base in. (I would play Santana at catcher where his bat is well above average).

Brantley/Bourn
Kipnis
Santana/Swisher
Santana/Swisher

Lately Raburn has been the Indians best hitter, but he doesn't have the track record of Santana or Swisher, so I would bat him fifth against RHP and third against LHP (moving down the Santana/Swisher spot down one each). He is a below average fielder so I would have him DH.

Brantley/Bourn (LF/CF)
Kipnis (2B)
Santana/Swisher (C/1B)
Santana/Swisher (C/1B)
Raburn (DH)

After Raburn I would try and get the best remaining batters the most at-bats possible. That would be Bourn or Brantley, then Cabrera, then Chisenhall, and then Stubbs.

Brantley/Bourn (LF/CF)
Kipnis (2B)
Santana/Swisher (C/1B)
Santana/Swisher (C/1B)
Raburn (DH)
Brantley/Bourn (LF/CF)
Cabrera (SS)
Chisenhall (3B)
Stubbs (RF)

*Side note* This lineup would look a whole lot better if Choo was in right instead of Stubbs. I know Choo is going to be a free agent at the end of the season, but this could have been a very good lineup if Choo was included. And with the Bourn, Reynolds, Swisher, and Myers signings it seems like the owners were interested in winning this year.

Man there is so much suck with this team right now. Season is done, no chance at any playoffs, Bring up the farm and look for some bats. If i'm the dolan's, I'm looking for a new FO, shappy and co are bad...they have had more than enough time to do something. Finally get some money to spend and they waste it. I wish MLB had an amnesty clause like NBA...i'd nominate swisher

Perez has been the least of our problems. Unless your comparing him to Mo Rivera, he has been pretty consistent to most closers over the past 4 years. In fact, I would welcome the guy back. It's probably mutual that both sides move forward, but you won't find too many closers that have 115 saves, and close to a 90% conversion clip. Just look at Valverde. he hit on all of his saves 2 years ago, now he doesn't have a job. Finding good, consistent closers isn't an easy task.Not everyone is cut for it, as we seen with Pestano this year.

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Perez has been the least of our problems. Unless your comparing him to Mo Rivera, he has been pretty consistent to most closers over the past 4 years. In fact, I would welcome the guy back. It's probably mutual that both sides move forward, but you won't find too many closers that have 115 saves, and close to a 90% conversion clip. Just look at Valverde. he hit on all of his saves 2 years ago, now he doesn't have a job. Finding good, consistent closers isn't an easy task.Not everyone is cut for it, as we seen with Pestano this year.

Yep. That was the point I as trying to make earlier.

The indians are in baseball purgatory. Good enough to contend, until the last month or so. that's why so many wondered why they signed swisher and bourn. those 2 weren't going to put us over. many thought we should've started from scratch or go all in to get some talent to actually beat detroit.

3 years in a row, getting humilated by detroit.

The Choo trade is a total diaster if Bauer continues to stink.

I will agree there. Albers and Shaw have disappointed, stubbs is ok, but not an impact player. In theory we could've have given choo, swisher's money, and called it a day. But from what I recall boras never wanted to extend him.

But if you are going all in with Swisher, Bourn, Reynolds, Myers, etc. then you might as well keep Choo. I guess they thought Bauer would be able to contribute this season.

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The Choo trade is a total diaster if Bauer continues to stink.

He wasn't going to resign with us, and we got a legitimate #1 pitching prospect for him. Whether or not Bauer develops is on the Tribe's coaches throughout the organization, but really, that's about as good as you can do trading a rent a player.

I thought it was a good trade at the time as well. But, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't it before the Swisher and Bourn signings? That seems counterproductive.

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I thought it was a good trade at the time as well. But, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't it before the Swisher and Bourn signings? That seems counterproductive.

In what way?

The Swisher and Bourn signings seemed like moves to win right away, while the Choo trade was made for prospects.

I would also add that we got Drew Stubbs in that trade, and he's been a solid OF for us as well. He has excellent speed and excellent defense. With Stubbs we might have the best defensive OF in the Majors.

Further, Stubbs is hitting .242 with 7 HR, 37 RBI, 44 runs scored, and 13 SB. It's not Choo, who is hitting .280 with 15 HR, 35 RBI, and 12 SB ..... but Stubbs actually has more RBI and SB than Choo, in 84 fewer AB..

Again, given that Choo wasn't going to re-sign here, getting a very solid defensive OF with speed to go along with a #1 starter, I'd say that the trade worked out well for everyone.

I would also say that many times a pitcher needs a little time to become a finished product. Bauer has some amazing stuff, he just has to learn how to harness it. I wouldn;t write him off after just this one season in our system.

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The Swisher and Bourn signings seemed like moves to win right away, while the Choo trade was made for prospects.

As I said though, we also got Drew Stubbs, and while he's not on the same level as Choo, he has been very solid and useful for the Indians.

Choo's OBP is .112 points higher than Stubbs.

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Again, given that Choo wasn't going to re-sign here, getting a very solid defensive OF with speed to go along with a #1 starter, I'd say that the trade worked out well for everyone.

I would also say that many times a pitcher needs a little time to become a finished product. Bauer has some amazing stuff, he just has to learn how to harness it. I wouldn;t write him off after just this one season in our system.

Bauer is no longer a #1 starter. He has lost 5 MPH off his fastball.

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Choo's OBP is .112 points higher than Stubbs.

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Again, given that Choo wasn't going to re-sign here, getting a very solid defensive OF with speed to go along with a #1 starter, I'd say that the trade worked out well for everyone.

I would also say that many times a pitcher needs a little time to become a finished product. Bauer has some amazing stuff, he just has to learn how to harness it. I wouldn;t write him off after just this one season in our system.

Bauer is no longer a #1 starter. He has lost 5 MPH off his fastball.

It's still too soon to tell what he'll be.

Baseball trades can never be "won or lost" in a single season, even if fans and pundits often want to make it seem like they are.

If Choo does not re-sign with the Reds, and the Reds don't make a splash in the playoffs, was the trade worthwhile for them?

The Indians received Bauer, Stubbs, along with relievers Shaw and Albers. (1 future player, and 3 to help this year) The Reds got Choo and Jason Donald. (along, ironically, with $3.5 million from the Indians) The Reds also gave up a solid young SS in Didi Gregorius.

Who "won"? Way too early to tell. Arizona is probably happy with Gregorius. Sipp has been his normal, productive self from the looks of things. I don't see anything about Anderson with a quick look. He's probably back in the Minors.

The Reds got Choo, and they are happy with him. Jason Donald has no Major League stats this year, so he's probably back in the Minors.

The Indians got Bauer, who is a work in progress, with great stuff. They also for Drew Stubbs, who they control through 2016. Further, the Indians added a pair of solid relievers. Albers will be a free agent next year, IIRC, but the Indians control Shaw for a few more years as well.

The Indians had reportedly offered Choo contract extensions numerous times, but Choo said that he wanted to test free agency. He wasn't going to re-sign here. He was gone. We have a couple of useful pieces in Stubbs and Shaw, and a potential upper ortation type starter down the road in Bauer.

That's a pretty solid trade if you ask me.

Like I said, I liked the trade at the time. But if the Indians were going all in they should have just kept Choo and gone all in on this season.

Why?

What did he give us last year that was irreplaceable this year? He was a solid bat, but that was about it. He hit .280, with 16 HR, and 67 RBI. That was a very solid, very good year ..... but it wasn't some legendary season. He also made it very clear that he wasn't coming back.

I would rather have Stubbs and Bourne for the next few years than to have Choo for this year only.

I could see if we hadn't replaced Choo, but we turned our outfield into a team strength, defensively and offensively.

Bourne hits ,276, with 17 SB, and plays a superior CF.

Brantley moved to LF seamlessly, and is hitting .282 with 8 HR, 54 RBI, 12 SB, and he is a superior defender. He has 10 outfield assists this year ...... and NO errors. That's incredible, especially given his range that gets him to a lot of balls other guys can't reach.

Stubbs is hitting .242, with 7 HR, 37 RBI, and 13 SB. He's also speed plus in the outfield.

Then add in Raburn as a super sub, and he gives us a .274 average with13 HR, and 38 RBI. He is also a plus speed type guy in the outfield, able to run down balls some other guys never get to.

We could have kept Choo, but then we would have had to pass on at least one of these guys ... and maybe we might have passed on 2 of them. What would we have next year in that case? Teams have to look at this year and future years when making player decisions. It's not exclusively 1 year decisions. I happen to love what the Indians did in the outfield, both in terms of this year and next. I think that we are stronger without Choo than we would have been with him. (especially given that he sometimes seemed unhappy here)

Two points on this:

1) Trevor Bauer is 22 years old and has a 3.82 ERA in AAA. For comparison, that is 5 years younger than Corey Kluber. Bauer is struggling with many different mechanical ideas right now, that have cost him some speed, as he's trying to get better control. The great news is there is no speculation of medical issues, and the 96-99 mph velocity is still tucked away in that arm somewhere. I'm guessing that at some point over the next five years, he'll come to that middle ground and be a good pitcher. I'm not sure that he'll ever be the #1 that people predicted, but I still think he'll be a very, very solid pitcher in the majors for a long period of time. He needs to find a pitching coach that he respects and listens to, because he has too many voices tinkering with his mechanics right now.

Someone mentioned in the discussion of the Choo trade how the pieces haven't done anything, specifically mentioning Shaw and Albers. Albers has a 3.45 ERA and has been quite good for the front end of the bullpen role that he's been pegged for. Is he lights-out? No, but he's a definite major league bullpen guy. He's 30, so he may be on the downside, but you cannot complain about him this year. One of my favorite measuring tools for hitters is OPS+. While its not perfect, the idea behind it is to measure hitters against others relative to positions. They now have ERA+. Albers ERA+ is 111. League average would be 100. Shaw hasn't been as effective. Shaw has been much more effective at times than Albers, but has also gone through much worse stretches. However, Shaw has a much better fastball and is only 25 years old.

2) Chris Perez is a legitimate MLB closer. He's probably a top-10 closer in baseball right now, as much as Cleveland fans doesn't want to believe that. Unfortunately, he's also going to be in the final year of arbitration, and his salary will be around $8-9 million next year. The Indians should not pay him that, because with a limited salary structure, you cannot overpay a reliever that much money. Whether its Pestano, Allen, Shaw, or somebody else, the Indians need a different closer next year. Hopefully they can trade him, but I doubt that will be possible and the Indians will end up giving him his outright release before arbitration next year. Francona won't do it, because he's too traditional, but some manager in the near future is going to become very rich off of ditching the closer role and going entirely to the "relief ace" strategy. Your best reliever goes into the highest leverage situation, regardless of whether that is the 6th or 9th inning. It only makes sense.

What has worked so well for the Indians the past few years is that Perez has been an effective closer, but hasn't been the best reliever. So Acta was able to use Pestano/Smith/Sipp was able to pitch in higher leverage situations and save Perez for the traditional closer role. Speaking of, Tony Sipp was designated for assignment by the D-Backs (I would be on the phone with them yesterday) and Rafael Perez is in AA for the Red Sox. Anybody wanting to speak to the volatility of relievers need look no further. Those two were the most dominating LH options in baseball just a few years ago and now there's a good chance they'll both be in the minors by year's end.

I always thought Choo was a good outfielder with a plus throwing arm in RF, but last year he played some of the crappiest OF I've seen in a long time. He got really late breaks on flies and took bad angles for most of the season. Thats hard to understand when you've seen a guy perform at a high level before. I think Stubbs might be one of the best defensive outfielders I've ever seen - great speed, good breaks on balls, and a strong arm. I like watching him play - just wish he could hit for a higher average because he'd create havoc on the basepaths with his speed. Its off the point but I wish the Indians would work with Bourn, Stubbs, Brantley, Asdrubal, and Kipnis on their bunting ability. They could have had a field day with Miguel Cabrera in that Tigers series, because he could barely run.

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I think that we are stronger without Choo than we would have been with him. (especially given that he sometimes seemed unhappy here)

So you think Stubbs is better than Choo? Because that was essentially the trade-off. If you think that then I don't know what to tell you other than you are way way way way wrong.

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I think that we are stronger without Choo than we would have been with him. (especially given that he sometimes seemed unhappy here)

So you think Stubbs is better than Choo? Because that was essentially the trade-off. If you think that then I don't know what to tell you other than you are way way way way wrong.

The trade off is Choo for one year, plus Sipp and Donald, for Stubbs, and Shaw for several years ...... and Albers for this year ....... plus Bauer.

Yeah, one year of an unhappy Choo isn't worth what we receiver IMHO. He is a different player in Cincinnati because he seems happy there. He wasn't here. Further, we might not have added Bourn if we'd kept Choo to go along with Brantley. Who knows? I am quite happy with Bourn, so I would consider any scenario that takes him away from us as a failure.

It's almost impossible to look at one trade in the offseason without taking the larger picture into consideration. Donald was a so-so fill in. Sipp was a high quality reliever for us. Choo was an unhappy plus level player, who was not going to re-sign here under any circumstances, and who has made it clear that he is looking for the best offer he can get. So again ....

1 year of Choo, plus Donald and Sipp

Or .......

Multiple years of Stubbs and Shaw, plus Bauer, and Bourn .......

Sign me up for the latter 100 times out of 100.

You want to make this trade like it was Stubbs for Choo, but that's in no way what the trade was.

Whew. Glad to see this depressing losing streak come to an end.

Masterson had issues again today, which is a concern ...... but the bullpen picked him up nicely. It was also nice to see Swisher turn on some power again.Kind of strange that Asdrubal got ejected, and Aviles, his replacement, hit a 2 run HR. Nice. Maybe karma is rolling back to our side again. lol

Time to get on a long winning streak now.

And the Tigers lost. Keepin' the faith!

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And the Tigers lost. Keepin' the faith!

I gave up on the division. We can still get the wildcard.

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And the Tigers lost. Keepin' the faith!

I gave up on the division. We can still get the wildcard.

Yeah, my logical side says the same thing. I'm just an optimistic person I guess.

maybe baltimore will sign Reynold's and he can earn the rest of his money from us by knocking them down a few pegs?

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Stubbs is hitting .242, with 7 HR, 37 RBI, and 13 SB. He's also speed plus in the outfield.

That average would be ok for him if he was able to draw a few more walks and raise that .OBP

Stubbs doesn't bother me (neither did Reynolds) because we all expected about what he's given us.

Bourn has been extremely disappointing. Among league leaders in SB the last 4 years (all 40+ SB) to just 17 this year and he's been caught 1/3 of the time too (which is terrible). Very disappointing to couple with his numbers dropping a bit across the board too.

Stubbs has been decent, better there than here.

Bourne went down with an injury at some point. Maybe he's not completely healthy. He's a guy I think who can bounce back next year. And if not then it's clear he's just better suited for the NL.

his injury isn't stopping him from making plays in the field. i'm just hoping he's acquiring pitcher knowledge and he bounces back next year once he has it. otherwise, it'll be very disappointing.

stubbs defense has also been very nice in RF this year. didn't realize he had such a nice arm until this season.

This Albers kid has the Tribe's number tonight. 92 pitches through eight innings and two batters over the minimum.

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, he eats you."

Yeah, Albers was impressive. We couldn't touch him. 2 hits, both singles, and no walks.

Damn, he has now started his Major League career with over 17 scoreless innings. He's an impressive kid.

Not Indians related, but a fan in Atlanta died after a fall from the upper level at Turner Field tonight.

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Not Indians related, but a fan in Atlanta died after a fall from the upper level at Turner Field tonight.

With the amount of people moving in a hurry and add in the drunk factor, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

I know a fan died last season when he reached for a ball hit into the stands and banged his head pretty hard from 15 feet drop. Tragic.

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Not Indians related, but a fan in Atlanta died after a fall from the upper level at Turner Field tonight.

With the amount of people moving in a hurry and add in the drunk factor, I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.

I know a fan died last season when he reached for a ball hit into the stands and banged his head pretty hard from 15 feet drop. Tragic.

That's awful.

I sat in the nosebleed section at the new stadium many years ago, and walking down to the seats would have been scary if I was scared of heights. It was straight down the walkway to the little wall at the bottom, but it didn't look like it would be tall enough to stop someone if they tripped and went head over heels.

You mention about the drunk factor, I am also surprise that there aren't more accidents at stadiums. I don't know what stadium designers can do to make that aspect safer. It seems to me that if a person accidentally fell, and they hadn't been drinking, that the family could sue the crap out of the team and the designers/builders of the stadium.

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You mention about the drunk factor, I am also surprise that there aren't more accidents at stadiums. I don't know what stadium designers can do to make that aspect safer.

Stop selling beer.... Everybody wants open site lines, minimal obstructions, good camera views when they pan the crowd, etc... Just like automobiles, you could make stadiums idiot-proof but they would be very ugly and very expensive.... and as we all know, the harder you work to make something idiot-proof, the harder people work at being better idiots.

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It seems to me that if a person accidentally fell, and they hadn't been drinking, that the family could sue the crap out of the team and the designers/builders of the stadium.

They could and they would probably get something out of it because the team wouldn't want to appear uncaring... but safety rails are designed to keep a normal person, who doesn't want to fall over, from falling over. Rails are not designed to keep a person from falling who is intent on leaning over as far as he possibly can until 80% of his body weight is beyond the rail from falling over because he wants to catch a foul ball. To do that you would have to make the rails 2 feet taller and solid... then nobody in the first 3 rows could see the game.

I believe it was the Florida Marlins stadium where a guy got hit by a pitched ball that came out of the bullpen.. the pitcher overthrew the catcher and the ball sailed into the stands and hit a guy in the side of the head.. (Granted, this is probably a case of bad design because the wall behind the catcher was only 7' high or something like that).. the guy sued the pitcher, the team, the architect, and a couple other people I can't remember.. and he lost because his ticket said he assumed all responsibility for objects flying off the field and they ruled the bull pen was part of the field... but I think the team did settle and give him something.

I'm not an expert on falling down stairs ...... but from the looks of the upper deck at CBS, it sure seems like a person could go over without too terribly much difficulty. Maybe I'm wrong ...... but it just seems like it wouldn;t be real hard for something like that to happen.

Of course the stadium has been open for more than a decade, and I can't remember any such incidents ...... so maybe it's just all in my head.

It's all about center of gravity. Unless you are 7 feet tall, it's hard to fall over a 3' rail unless you are intentionally leaning over it.

I read a site (from August 2011) that said since 1969 there have been 22 fall related deaths (so add a couple more for the last couple years) at MLB stadiums.. when you think of the millions upon millions of people that have been to baseball games during that period, that is a pretty low number. That's about 1 every 2 years... so if attendance (lately) runs at 75 million a year, thats 150 every 2 years... your odds of falling to death at a ballgame are just slightly better than winning the Powerball.

My luck I'd go buy a Powerball ticket, go to a baseball game, win, and fall to my death.

Oh, I'd land next to an ex-girlfriend and hang in long enough so she could tell me everything I ever did wrong during those last fleeting seconds of life ...... and who would then see the ticket sticking out of my pocket, take it out, get on her phone, check the numbers, and yell "I won!!!" as I take my final breath.

lol

Good day for the playoff push...

Rays, Rangers, Tigers, Orioles, and A's depending on the Houston bullpen all lose today.

Movin a game closer.

Yep, way too early to give up.

"There's a gleam men, let's get the gleam."

So there's rumors that Paul Konerko and Justin Morneau are on the waiver (revocable) wire. Do we take a shot at one of them? I'm not a big Morneau fan, but have always liked Konerko. Not sure he's 100% healthy, but if he is he'd fill a big hole in the lineup.

I think anything that could strength the lineup should be looked at before the deadline. Swisher, Cabrera and Bourn, to some extent have really been struggling. Cabrera seems like he doesn't even want to get in the box right now. Konerko has been a nemesis for the Tribe for seemingly 20 decades now. Morneau always hits well against us. I would be afraid that picking one of them up would be much like what happened when the Tribe acquired David Justice. When he was with the Braves, we couldn't get him out. When he came over to the Tribe, he could never get the hits when we really, really needed them. I agree that something needs to be done, but I just worry that we make the wrong move.:shrug:

I like Konerko, it would just depend on what he cost.

He can also block any trade, so who knows if he accepts a trade here.

I also almost think that we would have to use him to replace Giambi, and I wonder if that is an improvement, or would wind up being more of a lateral move.

I dunno.

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I also almost think that we would have to use him to replace Giambi,

Giambi isnt going anywhere during this playoff push...He's the leader, the younger players need him to keep them level, he pushes everybody but also keeps thier heads & ego's intact. To let Giambi go at this point would make the players feel lost without somewhere to turn to for information or just piece of mind.

Really?

Aren't these guys major league baseball players?

Chris Perez blows another one. Ugh.

And after the bats came back from a 7-3 deficit in the 8th.

The aforementioned Jason Giambi had a nice day today. 2-3 with a 3 run HR, and a walk.

That was a bright spot for sure (and getting the win in 12 innings too).

3 out of the wildcard as of this moment.

Team - GB
Oak - 0
TB - 0
Balt - 2
Cle - 3
KC - 4.5

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The aforementioned Jason Giambi had a nice day today. 2-3 with a 3 run HR, and a walk.

When I saw him homer I thought of this thread. Pretty fitting.

Just to be clear I wasn't saying the Indians should get rid of Giambi, I was saying they should get rid of all the other players if they couldn't play without him.

As Mark Reynolds just homers for the Yanks in his first at bat ...

That figures.

I'm sure we'll see him have success. Pressure is off him. Yanks didnt sign him to that big contract. He has no pressure to succeed. Whatever he does well...is bonus for them...

that'll make life easier for him and youll see him succeed more.

Looks like Francisco Lindor is done for the season now with a back injury. Unfortunate for him, as he had a chance to establish himself at AA and start next year in Columbus. Now, he's probably got to start at Akron again next year.

JC

For there to really be an "Indians Playoff Push", its looking like they will need to win 26 or 27 of their last 39 games - better than a .667 pace - to win 93 games. Detroit is on pace to win 95 - we'd have to play nearly .750 ball to overtake that mark - not likely. Both Tampa and Oakland are on pace to win 92, and make the wildcard play-in. If its going to happen for the Indians it needs to start today in Oakland. Kazmir (7-5, 4.18) vs Milone (9-9, 4.39). Its a longshot we can catch Oakland or Tampa, but there's a chance if you beat them in head-to-head games. At least we're still playing meaningful games with 6 weeks left in the season, which is progress, I guess.

This is that situation that I was looking at with the season coming to a close.

Our September schedule involves a large number of teams that have terrible records. Including a number of divisional games against teams that we are 24-10 against. We have a great chance at success for the rest of the season.

If we can be within reach by September 1, we'll be in it. The rest of the August schedule isnt that daunting either. Get a win v. Oakland and take the series, then LAA, Min, 3 on the road at Atlanta, and then 3 @ Detroit. Those are two huge series against good teams. Then Baltimore, NYM, KC, Chi...

3 big series in a row...that'll be the make or break. Win those series, and have an inside track at the playoffs.

I like your optimism, but I can't say I share it. I'm guessing we play around .500 ball the rest of the way and finish with 85-87 wins. Good progress after last year, but no cigar.

PS - Can I say one more time how much I hate the interleague interludes to the regular season? They are distractions and momentum killers.

We are currently 66-57, with 39 games left. (if my math is correct) Looking at what we have left, I would have to say that we can win 90 games for the season if we can win 24 of those final 39 games.

Wha ... waitaminute ......

Yeah, that's right, I definitely think that we can win 90 games this year if we win 24 of our last 39 games. I'm gonna stand by that.

Seriously though ... I'll be here all week.

Anyway, I suspect that we're going to go something like 21-18 over the rest of the season, to wind up 87-75. I hope we can do better ... but I'm not counting on it.

Channeling the old southpaw, Herb Score (my fave Indians announcer) ...
"I am no math-a-matician, but even I know that if you add 24 wins to 66 wins, you will have more than 90 wins."

I miss Herb.

Herb was tremendous.

Indians won today, and are now 1-1/2 games behind in the wild card race. Listening to the game was like passing a kidney stone ... we played really bad defense and couldn't drive in RISP to save our life, but the pitching was stellar.

Hard to believe, but we're still alive on August 25.

The next 9 games will decide the season. We go to Atlanta, Detroit, and Baltimore.

The season is over after the next games?

was at the game today... Swisher was horrible today. I wanted to throw something at him.

curious... i honestly don't know this answer.

how are we 1.5 games back?

we have 6th most wins and our winning pct is 6th highest.

There are three division winners and two wildcards.

IIRC, We are 1.5 games out of the wild card with Baltimore at 2 games out and the Yankees are at 3.5 games out. Right now, TB and Oakland have the 2 wild card spots

Today was one of those beautiful ugly games. At this point in the season I'll take a win by any means.

j/k

This team found a way to win when everything around them said go ahead give up and lose...this team refused to lose and stuck in there and won...Isnt that what us fan have been whinning about past teams not doing, we finally have a tuff hard nose team and some of us fans are still whinning that the wins arnt preftect....Who cares a win is a win and in Cleveland will take any kind of win you toss at us in any sport....

Swisher had a terrible game and openly admitted it after the game, saying he stuck but the other guys wouldnt let him fall and held him up they came thru for this team today not him....even though he did have a big 2 out 8th inning hit.....I like this team ya they leave me yelling at the TV many a nights trying to score a run...but atleast I can turn off the TV come back an hour later and this team still hasnt given up, there still battling....Great job this year Tito, Cleveland has a team we can be proud of...Yes we need a few more pices but man what a diffrent feeling this year compared to last year.

GO TRIBE

Friday was disheartening because we really just didn't play well and even the solid ABs tended to end poorly. So, we go out and find a way to win the series anyway. Really like this bunch of guys on the team this year.

We really need our SPs to hold up though. It's going to get dicey down the stretch with so many young arms and Kazmir (being out so long from MLB), but if we can find a way to pitch, then we can stay in this thing as the AL East teams beat each other up.

Yup, Friday burned me up because Ubaldo went 6 giving up 2 ERs. For a team like ours, that should be enough to get the W.

Good that's it's a day off today. I think they needed a break (me too).

The next six games won't be easy, on the road for the Braves and Tigers, but they should be fun. I'm hoping for 4-2. It's weird, I'm not sure we can afford to lose any games while chasing two wildcard teams, having 3 wildcard contenders below us and still having a sliver of hope on catching the Tigers. Every game is almost a must-win.

don't forget Baltimore as well. if we can somehow manage to go 5-4 over the next 9 (including winning the O`s series), then we are in really, really good shape for one of the wild card slots with our September (and the AL East teams all playing each other).

and, Atlanta is a good team, but they are built just like we are. Losing Heyward really hurts their offense (he was on a tear recently), but they are a SP+speed team. Should be fun.

Yes, Baltimore is huge too. I was just focusing on the next 7 days.

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Yes, Baltimore is huge too. I was just focusing on the next 7 days.

I only brought them up too because after that stretch, we should be able to win a bunch of series even if we aren't playing our best baseball (like this past weekend)

It's funny, I'm more scared about the Houston series late in Sept. That's a team NOBODY in contention wants to play right now (along with the White Sox and the Marlins).

The pressure to sweep them can almost come back to bit you. Plus, they'll be playing a bunch of guys fresh up from AAA and the current guys are trying to play spoiler or keep their jobs.

we won't have to face Jose Fernandez at least from Miami. He has 2 more starts before they shut him down.

Fun baseball fact :

The Red Sox are the first team to win a series against the Dodgers since the Pirates in mid-June.

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It's funny, I'm more scared about the Houston series late in Sept. That's a team NOBODY in contention wants to play right now (along with the White Sox and the Marlins).

That's the exact team I would want to play. The bad one.

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There are three division winners and two wildcards.

oh, that's how I messed that up

thanks!

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It's funny, I'm more scared about the Houston series late in Sept. That's a team NOBODY in contention wants to play right now (along with the White Sox and the Marlins).

That's the exact team I would want to play. The bad one.

Esp. with how the Tribe has handled bad teams. They've taken care of business in that department this year.

I'm worried about Detroit. I know the division is pretty much out of reach, but just to keep the season going we can't lay another egg. They were so close to a split last time around, maybe some things finally fall their way this time.

Tito has done a really good job with this group. I think they've overachieved. When this season finally does end, he's going to have to go to the higher ups and say that he needs more (we want more, we want more!) because I don't think it's really fair to try and sell the fans on building a championship team with Masterson/Ubaldo as your 1-2 punch. Fool's gold if you ask me, just shows how good of a job he has done managing this thing.

at the end of the day, they're still not good enough. I think they will finish with 85-87 wins. they have been consistent in beating bad teams. good teams, not so much. I thought Acta did a decent job here, he just never had a good team to win. He was competitive for a while. Masterson is a good 2, but isn't an ace by any stretch. I know I won't be satisfied with this organization until they are serious contenders. Winning 85 games isn't good enough for me. Hopefully they could get a couple pieces in the winter.

85-87 wins isn't good enough, yet, if the Browns go 8-8, this town will throw a parade.

I'm not writing the playoffs off yet. This is our last hard stretch of the schedule. September is a cake walk. If we can just be 3-4 games out after this 9-game stretch, we're still absolutely alive for a WC spot.

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85-87 wins isn't good enough, yet, if the Browns go 8-8, this town will throw a parade.

I'm not writing the playoffs off yet. This is our last hard stretch of the schedule. September is a cake walk. If we can just be 3-4 games out after this 9-game stretch, we're still absolutely alive for a WC spot.

I'm not throwing a parade if the Browns win 8 games, and I don't understand when talking heads throw that at you "Hey, would you sign up for 8-8 right now, call into the show"

We're not signing up for anything, we're taking what we're going to be given. Even if you could "sign up" for that, what good is 8 wins? What's the difference between that and 5-11? Not much, you're still watching other teams play in the post season.

Now on the other hand, some people put lofty expectations and then go ape feces when it doesn't happen.

I think people will be encouraged with 8-8, but I really don't think anyone is going to get the Chudzinski statue outside the stadium going.

With the Tribe, I didn't expect them to make the playoffs, I expected them to be in the conversation which is what they are. I think more fans are upset because they know the window for competing when you're an Indians fan begins to close the minute it gets open. You don't make the playoffs this year, OK, what about next year? What are you going to do to get better? What if it doesn't, are you selling off pieces like in 2008 and 2009?

You see a light at the end of the tunnel with the Browns. Lots of young talent. The Indians brought up a 32 year old career minor leaguer to help bolster the lineup. You tell me the difference.

The Browns make attempts to get better, misguided as they might be.

The Indians, prior to this season in hiring Tito and spending the money they had wasted in Grady and Pronk, were quite content to be lousy, tread water, be sellers at the deadline, and on top of that had the balls to blame it on the lack of attendance.

The only 2 cupcakes we play is houston and chicago. Kansas City, MInnesota, and the Mets will play us tough. I just don't see it. I think by next week, we will be all but out of it. Oakland has a very easy schedule in september. After they play tampa and texas, they have a very favorable stretch to close the year. We would have to win 21-23 of our last 30 games. Very tall order if you ask me.

The Mets and Twins are just flat out bad. It doesn't matter how tough they play, they just aren't good.

Plus, the Twins just traded Willingham to the O's on a waiver deal, and are rumored to be shopping Morneau, so they are going from bad to worse.

I don't hear Roseanne Barr singing yet. We still got a shot, and I for one am proud of the Tribe this year no matter how we finish up.

The Tribe improved greatly over last year. However, their hitting is abysmal. Major underachievers, (Cabrerra, Swisher, etc..). Made baseball interesting in August, however the collapse/failure to seize the moment is why most fans don't put much stock in the team. Contrary to their marketing slogan---this is not a Tribe Town.

Having said that, with Cabrera injured...Let's beat Detroit

Tribe just got Jason Kubel from Arizona. I was really hoping for Morneau... Kubel is .220 and probably gonna make things worse not better.

I was a fan for years when we thought sniffing .500 was a great season. I was and am excited about this team right now and I believe the future looks bright. These young guys just need to learn how to win right now, just like The Browns. I have not posted much in this forum about the Tribe all year, but it's only because I think many peope get excited or turned off way to quickly in baseball as it's a long season and it takes a lot of time to let things to play out.

I'm not sure where Kubel fits in. He shouldn't play over any of the outfielders and is only a slight upgrade over Giambi.

Well, Kubel is a left handed bat, and we did need one of those ......

Other than that he's kind of a so so signing.

I am proud of the way the Indians have turned things around this year, but it does seem like they are going to miss out on the playoffs this year. That doesn't make this a lost year though. I like many of the pieces we have in place, and with a couple more we can be a serious contender.

It is starting to look that way...More so, it looks as though if we get to the playoffs unless we play Oakland its going to be sweep city.

We really just cant compete with the top teams as they do work against us.

That being said...I keep saying, if the Tribe are in striking distance entering September...they can do it, because their schedule is so easy in that month.

These next 6 days are still very big for them. Detroit and Baltimore. And now Miggy is down for Detroit...2 out of 3 and 4 out of 6 and its on for September.

I am proud of the way the Indians have turned things around this year, but it does seem like they are going to miss out on the playoffs this year. That doesn't make this a lost year though. I like many of the pieces we have in place, and with a couple more we can be a serious contender.

Amen Brother.....add a couple more pices, we need a everyday 30+ HR 3rd Basemen, We need a 10game winning streak to make this thing intresting, before Atlanta it was win the series with each team win 3 of 4 not anymore we need to run off a string of 10+ win...This team can do it,

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I'm not sure where Kubel fits in. He shouldn't play over any of the outfielders and is only a slight upgrade over Giambi.

unless he starts hitting like he did like the 6 seasons prior to this one. I think he is our Raburn replacement while he is injured.

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I am proud of the way the Indians have turned things around this year, but it does seem like they are going to miss out on the playoffs this year. That doesn't make this a lost year though. I like many of the pieces we have in place, and with a couple more we can be a serious contender.

Amen Brother.....add a couple more pices, we need a everyday 30+ HR 3rd Basemen, We need a 10game winning streak to make this thing intresting, before Atlanta it was win the series with each team win 3 of 4 not anymore we need to run off a string of 10+ win...This team can do it,

It is just SO frustrating to see them in two games they were in against ATL and lost by walking the pitcher and then the #1 batter getting a hit, scoring 2 runs. They have the potential to make a good run to make things very interesting indeed. I am proud of them as well.

the difference between the end of August 2012 and 2013 is mind-boggling

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2013/08/cleveland_indians_adding_jason.html

As reported earlier, Indians acquired OF, Jason Kubel from the D-backs. They have also signed C Kelly Shoppach to a minor league contract. I also wonder if something is going to happen with Asdrubal Cabrera. Cardinals need a SS, and are rumored to be shopping 3B David Freese.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/david_freese/

wow talk about making a move to just make a move...neither one of those are going help, we have a roster full of those guys. The way they've played the last 4 games, i'd say its all but over.

Anything other than a world series is a failed season in my book. I'm sorry, been watching this team since 88, been so damn close, seasons like this don't do much for me. Just like in 07, we would've killed the rockies, just couldn't close the deal on the sox. Out of all the cleveland sports team the indians have nearly tasted championships so many times in the past 18 years. I will never be statisfied until we win it all.

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Anything other than a world series is a failed season in my book. I'm sorry, been watching this team since 88, been so damn close, seasons like this don't do much for me. Just like in 07, we would've killed the rockies, just couldn't close the deal on the sox. Out of all the cleveland sports team the indians have nearly tasted championships so many times in the past 18 years. I will never be statisfied until we win it all.

You have to be realistic about things though.

This team entered play this year with questionable starting pitching. That starting pitching has become a strength of the team. The offense has had ups and downs. Unfortunately, we've had a lot of downs lately, and the guy we could often count on t come in off the bench and give us a big game, Ryan Raburn, is on the DL now. The bullpen has been up and down throughout the season. Despite all of that, we have been right there with the Tigers throughout the year .... and the Tigers were expected to run away and hide from the rest of the division. According to the experts, they should be up by 20 games by this point in the season. Instead they are 7 1/2 games up on the Indians.

The Tribe stands a great chance of winding up with 85-90 wins. They have been this stupidly streaky team, where they lose 10 in a row, then win 12 in a row. It makes little sense, but it's the way it's gone this year.

I hope that we can find a left handed hitting 3rd baseman in the off-season, to go along with another veteran starter, and a couple of bullpen guys. I think that this is a reasonable shopping list.

They have been stuck in mediocrity for the past 3 years. that's what so frustrating. This team was never a contender this year. they are 3-14 against their main rival. every time I thought they turned the corner they get hammered by a good club. I will agree the pitching has been good for most of the year. Ubaldo's numbers are worthy of them keeping him another year. Him, Masterson and Kluber average a k per inning.

Its just time for the front office to make significant upgrades in the offense. They might not have a player reach 20 homers. Mark Reynolds is till 2nd on the team with 15. Totally unacceptable. The yankees grabbed Soriano for a bag of peanuts, while we waited and did nothing. Soriano in 31 games has 11homers and 33 rbi. Nick Swisher has 15 homers, and 46 rbi in 118 games. We paid him 14 million, and at no point can I remember Swisher going on a hot streak.

the Soriano argument is garbage. he was not good until the trade to the Yankees

(and yes, our offense needs to wake up)

totally disagree on that one. his time with the cubs he had 17 homers, which would still lead this club at the present moment. Didn't have to give up much to get him. In reality we would've probably missed the playoffs, but the front office put little effort to make any move. They will get another shot to make something happen this winter.

Well that loss tonight should just about do it. This team's biggest problem is the FO and talent evaluation. Shappinetti really needs let go and bring someone in that can spend this money dolans have been allowing wisely. Offense is a joke. I'd venture to say we are in the bottom 3rd since all star break. We are missing alot of power in the lineup. Batting order doesn't mean anything on this team because theres noone dangerous enough that pitchers can't just attack everyone, I think if you take a Mcab and put him on this team, we have 10+ more wins right now. We need that kind of bat. Or a couple bats to match that kind of production.

You can only add what you can add, and within the budget you have.

Hell, he added a ton of talent to this team this offseason. Off the top of my head he added Kazmir, Albers, Shaw, Gomes, Swisher, Aviles, Bourne, Raburn, Stubbs, and Giambi. He also brought in a guy who never got hurt in Myers, and he got hurt. He brought in an up and down hitter in Mark Reynolds, and he dropped off the face of the earth. Add in that Chisenhall has had issues at the plate, in addition to on the field .... that Cabrera has had trouble at the plate, and that the guy we might have brought up to fill in at either spot, Cord Phelps, hurt his wrist and has been out.

Overall, I think that he finally got a moderate budget, and he did about as much as he could have. Who saw the bullpen imploding like it had? The rotation has been far, far better than anyone could have imagined. There are a lot of solid pieces on this team, and they still have some work to do to get the team the rest of the way there. Overall I think that he did a very good job this year. Did he overtake the Tigers? No. However, the Tigers were supposed to run away and hide this year. They were supposed to be up by 20 games at this point.

Sometimes you do all you can do, and it just isn't enough. Key players slump ..... guys who have never been injured get hurt ,,,, other players who were automatic thus far stall out ...... it happens.

I believe there is another cuban defector coming to the big leagues next year. They say he is the Ted Williams of cuban baseball. I believe he plays 1st base. But from what I read he is only considering big market teams.

Unless this team develops/trades for a cy young pitcher, or gets a bat or two to compete with the tigers, nothing will change. Or if the tigers get old, or lose a few pieces to free agency. I've been preaching this for months.

The guy you are talking about is Jose Abreu. I've read that he projects to be more of a right handed Ryan Howard (that is good and bad).

There is also a Japanese guy, Masahiro Tanaka, who is probably going to get posted this off-season. He projects to be at least a #2 starter and he is only 24 years old.

It just shows the organization has no depth. When we were playing the braves Tom Hamilton was talking about how many players they have lost due to injury. All their outfielders have been hurt at some point, their two set-up men in the pen were also out, not to mention losing Tim Hudson. The difference is the braves are loaded in the farm system, while we are not. That falls mostly on Shipiro, and front office in past drafts.

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It just shows the organization has no depth. When we were playing the braves Tom Hamilton was talking about how many players they have lost due to injury. All their outfielders have been hurt at some point, their two set-up men in the pen were also out, not to mention losing Tim Hudson. The difference is the braves are loaded in the farm system, while we are not. That falls mostly on Shipiro, and front office in past drafts.

That I agree with. The farm system is not in good shape right now, and needs rebuilt.

Also, with the new CBA, we could have lost our 1st round pick for signing Swisher. (or Bourn) However, because of where we picked, we were able to avoid that penalty, and lost a 2nd instead. (and a 3rd) The system has changed, and if you sign a qualified free agent, then you have to pay for it with a draft pick. It makes it harder to sign big money guys.

The Indians signed Cuban Leandro Linares a while back. He's supposed to be a promising RHP.

When is Lindor going to be ready? Maybe they can restock the farm system a bit this off-season by trading Asdrubal Cabrera and start the season with Lindor. I guess Cabrera's value is at an all time low, so it would probably be a bad idea to trade him at this point.

Lindor's been shut down for the year, IIRC. He's had a back issue, IIRC.

His defense is Major League ready right now, but he's probably going to need another year in the Minors before his offense gets there. He did hit .289 in limited time at Akron ..... but I think that he needs more time to develop.

I don't know how much value Cabrera has right now, given the way his bat disappeared lately. His batting average is 30 points below his career average. (and his average of the prior 3 seasons) His defense has actually been pretty good this year though. That's a plus.

I do have a hard time imagining him on the team next year. I think that he'll be moved for value, if we can get value for him. They have a couple of serviceable SS in the Minors if they trade Cabrera.

The guy I am extremely disappointed in is Chisenhall. His bat has turned into a matchstick. He is hitting a whopping .222. Hopefully he works on his swing this off-season, because he is really struggling right now, and his bat was his claim to a Major League spot.

the tribe held on a lot longer this year, but the bottomline is that we still have no hitter over .300, we have no one who can hit homers and that is a huge issue, especially when you are trying to out play Miguel Cabrera and (i know hes off this year but its cuz of his divorce) Prince Fielder. Miggy is like Manny Ramirez minus the idiotic antics and the steroids (i hope). The Tigers just toy with us at this point. We need to solidify our rotation next year. Kluber looks great, i hope it wasnt a one year fluke. Salazar could be amazing soon. But Masterson has been very iffy this year. Ubaldo got better but hes still not someone i would entrust a pennant race to. Mcallister, Kazmir, and all the pitchers weve used this year are inconsistent (boy Trevor Bauer looks like an EPIC bust). Things need to line up next year with our rotation.

Brantley and Kipnis were great this year, but who knows if they can keep it up next year. Just look at Asdrubal Cabrera, yikes what a bad year. Its making me beg for Lindor at this point. Swisher was a letdown, and was honestly only brought in to pimp the Ohio State thing... Bourn was supposed to steal bases and his numbers plummeted. 3B was so poor. Chisenhall is entering LaPortaville of letdowns. Santana, still hard to say if hes good. His power dropped, his catching hasnt improved, but he looked alot better than alot of these guys. Yan Gomes was a nice surprise but hes not going to lead us to the playoffs by himself.

The bottomline is that although this team improved greatly this year, they are still lightyears behind Detroit and will probably never catch them with how much the Dolans have to work with. If the indians were just .500 against them this year we would be about 3-4 games up on Detroit not 8.5 out and down for the count. Its turning into the same problem the Browns have had all these years. You have to beat your division foes, its who you see the most and its what will make the biggest difference.

Know how many players have hit .300 or better this year?

12 in the AL. 26 in all of the Major Leagues. There aren't as many .300 hitters as there used to be. As far as power hitters, I think that we counted on Swisher, Reynolds, and Chisenhall to provide power. I think that Kipnis is developing nicely overall, including power, but he's not a 25 HR guy yet. I think that he will be next year though.

The Indians are still 8th in all of Major League Baseball in runs scored. (Tied with Toronto) The problem has been timely hitting, and scoring runs in key spots. We are middle of the pack in batting average.

Our problem has been that we have been horribly inconsistent. Timely hitting has been a real weakness for this team. Unfortunately this happens when you get multiple guys into slumps at the same time.

The problem is what it's always been for us in this new mega millions era of baseball ....... we can't go pick up players in the middle of the season to help augment weaknesses that pop up. Unfortunately, we had the bullpen implode, and we had a couple of guys we counted on severely under-perform. Some teams have the finances to make big moves to fix these kind of problems .... we don't.

It doesn't help that we're in the playoff race, yet we're 27th in attendance.

People are going to complain that Dolan is "cheap", but he put out what .... $100 million this off-season? How was he rewarded for putting a competitive and often exciting team on the field? Crappy attendance. The Indians average just over 20,000 per game, or 46% of capacity. That's pathetic.

A record of 3-15 vs Detroit, and an equally crappy record (4-16) vs Boston, Tampa, and NY is the reason this team is where it is. Play .500 ball against those teams and you're in contention. Play .184 ball (7-31) and you are an also-ran.

Oh well, at least bigdatut should be a happy guy today. His Pirates traded for Justin Morneau and are in 1st place in the NL Central. Heckuva pickup for the Bucs.

Aviles with a grand slam in the top of the 9th!

Tribe up 4-0 now.

Six shutout innings from Salazar!

Tribe wins!

(finally!)

Maybe we can get on a winning streak now.

It feels like its over, but after this Baltimore series, the schedule is just so easy for the rest of the season.

Matt Langwell was the PTBNL for Jason Kubel. I was looking at the roster, the Indians could have as many as 11 spots open on the 40-man roster this offseason, and likely at least 8 or 9 at minimum. Not going to lose any players in Rule V and may add a player or two, plus a FA or two.

we really needed to at least win 4 games in this 9game stretch. so far, we are 1-6. it is that complete inability to win against competitive teams that makes any other efforts this month seem like a waste.

still, I hope they make me forget that by putting on a show the last 4 weeks, we go and beat out Boston or somebody worthwhile in the WC game and then they can hit me back with reality in the divisional series.

Masterson leaving the game yesterday with an apparent oblique injury (rib cage) does not help the cause. Do only Indians' pitchers get this injury? If it is an oblique, he's probably done for the season.

It's amazing we're still in this, only 3 games out. Tampa has really hit the skids, losing 5 in a row. That's the frustrating part, the last spot has been there all year. If we just played.500 the past week, we might be tied right now. The way ubaldo has pitched of late, they need to make him an offer. Nothing too crazy, but he has really turned the corner.

Jimenez seems to be getting better as the year progresses. He's under a 4 ERA now, at 3.95. He had a 3.09 ERA in June, a 2.83 ERA in July, and a 3.10 ERA in August. (Oh, and a 0 ERA so far in September)

I think that he has moved into the category of a player we need to look seriously into resigning. I don't think that he's going to accept his $8 million, one year option.

He's going to get $40 million in guarantees this offseason. Indians fans will be shocked at the amount he gets.

Under 10,000 at the game tonight, against a Wild Card competitor, 4 GB in September. Cleveland baseball fans are horrible.

I was listening to Pluto today, and was stunned about one thing regarding the Indians attendance.

The Tribe leads all of baseball in walk up tickets sold. No team sells more at the gate. Unfortunately, we are horrible in season ticket sales.

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It's amazing we're still in this, only 3 games out.

7.5 games out of the division, 6.5 games out of the wild card...

CBS has us 3 games out.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/standings/wildcard

Either Oakland or Texas will win the West. The other is the leader by far for one of the wildcard spots. We're 3 game back of the other spot.

You're right, my mistake. I read the standings on my MLB app incorrectly.

MLB list sus as 3.5 back, FWIW, and we do have to jump three teams to get the wildcard.

They can jump the O's by winning tonight, and pull even with the Yankees if they lose to the White Sox. The bad news is the White Sox are throwing a rookie against Sabathia tonight, so don't hold your breath. It is kind of fun scoreboard watching, though.

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You're right, my mistake. I read the standings on my MLB app incorrectly.

MLB list sus as 3.5 back, FWIW, and we do have to jump three teams to get the wildcard.

the good thing is that those 3 teams all play each other (and Boston) a ton this month. we need them to knock each other around a bit.

of course, we have to actually win our games too (and KC is only a game back of us).

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Ubaldo - Cot's lists his 2014 season as a "Club Option" That means we get to choose whether or not to pay him $8mil for next year.

I'm one that typically hold out hope to make the playoffs, because once you get in, anything can happen. Sorry to be a debby downer, but not this year. Even if we happen to make the playoffs, does anyone actually exact us to do anything? I don't remember a "contending" team that had such an awful record against teams with winning records.

hmm...maybe the 2007 Colorado Rockies? they went on that absolute tear in-division to end the season (was it 21wins in 22games or something similarly ridiculous).

anyway, I agree on actual contention, but if we get the 2nd wild card and knock off the A`s/Rangers in that random 1 game scenario (doubt we could beat either in an actual series), then I'll be happy. Give some real hope for next season and some October experience for the youngsters.

Any MLB team can win three of five games. The Astros could beat the Red Sox three of five. The baseball playoffs are as random as you can get.

Some team would be crazy to give him $40 million. I would give him maybe a 3 yr deal worth $24 million, or maybe 2 at $20 million. He's had a good year this year, but his velocity isn't what it once was, and he still could be inconsistent with his control. Plus at best he is a 5-6 inning pitcher.. I do think he is better suited for the national league. American league teams tend to walk more, and make the pitcher work.

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3 yr deal worth $24 million, or maybe 2 at $20 million

that is what similar pitchers received on the open market last year (guys like Guthrie), so that is likely what he would expect to get.

what I don't know is if we would be eligible for draft compensation. if we are, then it could take his value down further as teams don't want to give up a high pick for him and the $$$.