Well now the Big Cheese speaks.

This is very revealing: "We've got to get a quarterback in 2015."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000462425/article/jimmy-haslam-browns-have-to-get-a-qb-in-2015

Does the Big Cheese mean we don't have one? I guess that is the only way to take that comment.

What are the Browns going to do?

Sign Hoyer?

Draft a quarterback?

Try to trade for one?

Sign a free agent?

The Big Cheese has spoken. I guess that means something is gonna happen.

I haven't read the article, but I heard the quote.

It was more like we don't know if we have a quarterback, and we will continue to try and figure it out.

mac's interpretation: Haslam has proposed to Manziel and they will be vacationing in the Bahamas next week.

He can always ask the homeless man in such hard times

In other words: Johnny B. Good.

In other words: Hey, John Manziel, you've got some work to do, and it will show if you're doing it.

In other words: John, I don't want to see your mug in party shots. Only place I want to see your face is studying the game you get payed to play.

And, in the final words: John, I put my ass on the line drafting you and mandating you play. I have enough on my table......you'd better be good.

Looks like Hoyer may be the only QB from this year after pre season?

TRADE? Nick Foles

TRADE UP? Marcus Mariota

Draft? Bryce Petty

Sign? Mark Sanchez?

All four of those options are horrible.

Big words from a rich man. He needs to put his money where his mouth is. Monitor little johnny closely, see that he is putting time in during the off season, ensure he shows up at otas and works his butt off.

I see a trade of epic proportion occuring soon. Hope we are all shocked!

It sounds like Haslam (and Farmer who has said the same stuff) feel like we don't have our starter on the roster.

Now, whether they're trying to light a fire under Johnny or they view him as a sunk cost and are going to replace him with a FA or a rookie like Mariota, I have no idea... but it's great to see that these guys won't put up with crap at the QB position.

Whatever conclusion they come to at the end of their prep process, they need to follow it with 100% conviction. It doesn't matter who is on the roster now or what we paid to bring him in, if he's not the solution, move on without hesitation.

If it is true that we are done with Manziel after only one season (I am not sure we are), we literally wasted a first round pick in the deepest draft ever. Fun stuff. Maybe next time a hyped prospect comes around Haslam will trust the people who have some clue (allegedly) do their jobs.

Those big and shiny new toys can be enticing to those who can afford them. Hope you're right about trusting those you hire to do a job!

Terrible headline that does not mesh with Haslam's quoted statements in the article:

New offensive coordinator John DeFilippo expressed skepticism Thursday that Johnny Manziel is the answer to the Cleveland Browns' decades-long quarterback problem.

The questions about Manziel's future go much higher than the coaching staff.

Owner Jimmy Haslam, who was reported to have the gridiron-version of a "love affair" with Manziel last May, no longer carries a torch for his 2014 first-round draft pick.

"We've got to get a quarterback and got to get it fixed," Haslam said Thursday night, via the Elyria Chronicle-Telegram. "What I would say to our fans is, we're going to continue to work really hard to find that quarterback who can make us a championship team."

Haslam isn't ruling out Manziel as the 2015 starter, but emphasized that "every option is on the table" including undrafted Week 17 starter Connor Shaw and impending free agent Brian Hoyer.

The Browns owe it to themselves to leave no stone unturned after Manziel's rocky rookie season -- on and off the field.

"Johnny has to show on and off the field he can be a professional," Haslam continued. "He knows that. Everybody in the organization has told him that. It'll be up to Flip and (coach Mike Pettine) to decide whether he can be the kind of quarterback we need him to be. He knows what we expect of him on and off the field, and it's up to him to prove he can do that."

The Browns' brass might be willing to overlook Manziel's extracurricular activities had his limited game film provided any indication that he could emerge as the face of the franchise.

Instead, he fell on his face in four preseason games and two regular-season starts, leaving more doubts than any of the first-year quarterbacks.

He pretty much stated the Obvious - The Browns need to get a QB to be in the run for a Championship. He didn't rule out JM but he's game for anything that would assure that.

Ok I don't think Haslam is running the show as in Micromanaging. I'm sure the entire team is throwing the Gauntlet down to Manziel - pick it up and work your ass off. Or we will put the sword through you! Could only help. Hope the kid gets the message. Its study time - and time to become a PROFESSIONAL!
jmho

It doesn't look like that at all. Why would it look like Hoyer, an impending free agent, would be the only QB from this year after pre-season instead of their young QB who they have locked up for a few years? Saying they need to get a QB doesn't mean Hoyer is safe seeing how he is a QB and they need to get one. It seems that you've twisted the words into what you hope for rather than reality.

I agree Lemmy. Saying you need one means you don't have one. If they thought Hoyer was the answer, they wouldn't be saying we need one.

Well we are going to find out about Johnny Doolittle.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/122162...on-sources-said

It would sure help the Browns "if" he has potential and "if" he ever reaches it.

I have stated consistently from way before the draft that JM should never have carried a first round grade.

That does mean he does not have talent. Russell Wilson didn't carry a first round grade. He has tons have talent. He also earned his way onto the field by out working his competition.

I want JM to succeed. The Browns spent a first round pick on him.

At the same time I have serious doubts about his abilities and his commitment.

Phil Savage:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...itional-offense

This might be the dumbest statement I have ever read:
"If you were going to pour him into a more traditional style of offense then it was going to be a waste of his ability because his ability is to play backyard football."

So Phil, with all of the history of NFL head coaches and OC's has any team at any time thought it wise to implement a backyard football offense?

This is the NFL as in professional football.

Manziel has to learn to study and play professional football.

The Browns have to bring in serious competition and find out "if"
Manziel can rise above that competition.

My opinion...

FA Options are slim...maybe one of these guys, but only at friendly prices (maybe incentive laden).
Ryan Mallett
Brian Hoyer
Jake Locker
Sam Bradford (if he ends up as a cap casualty)

Trade options...this isn't realistic, but it'd be one of the very few guys I'd consider trading for.
Jimmy Garoppolo

Trade Up:
No thanks, unless Mariota drops beyond number 7 or 8. I'd rather have our 2nd first rounder and our 2nd rounder.

Draft:
Mariota if available at 12 or 19
Grayson 3rd or later
Carden 4th or later
Mannion 6th or later
Bridge 7th or FA

The more I learn the more disappointed I am. Cause I still say the kid can be great. The more I learn the more hope I have. Cause the kid could be great. He's just an asshole right now???

jmho

I don't think that acquiring Nick Foles (or Mike Glennon) via trade is a horrible option. It would all depend on the amount paid.

Glennon is not good and has no upside. We might as well stay with Hoyer rather than go to Glennon. Foles is better than Hoyer and Manziel, but he was in Kelly's system so we don't really how good he is. And he would probably cost a decent amount.

You mean, like Banner getting rid of Trent Richardson to the Colts? Maybe Farmer could move that even further by trading away Johnny for something?

Except Banner wasn't the one who drafted Richardson.

What? Glennon has no upside?

There's a problem with 'staying with Hoyer' and that is that Hoyer might not want to 'stay with the Browns'.

I don't know how much Foles would cost and if the price asked for is higher than the Browns want to pay, then just say 'Nope and hang up the phone.'

I didn't say that Banner was the one that drafted Richardson.

I would say that reading it seems to indicate that they aren't intending to bring back Hoyer unless it is on their own terms.

I wasn't saying you did. At least Banner was cleaning up someone elses mess. These guys just drafted Manziel last year.

I don't think Glennon is good and I don't see much room for improvement.

Fair enough, Farmer says that he drafted Manziel.

I fully expect that Manziel will see competition for the job if he's actually still on the team. I don't know what the Browns can expect to get in return for him, but I don't think it'll be very much. Because of that, I think he's on the roster next season. It remains to be seen if he's even got a chance at being the starter.

I think that Connor Shaw has a better chance of starting for the Browns than Manziel does for no other reason than he puts in the effort.

We are so screwed.

Then we will have to simply agree to disagree.

My take is that any QB that can have twice as many TDs as INTs in his first two seasons and has over an 83 QB rating (conventional formula) on such a BAD team has some skills.

A QB rating of 83 would have been the 26th ranked QB this season (among players who qualified). 33 players qualified. 83 is no longer a good QB rating.

Why? There are some very good ways to fix what ails the Browns. It'll be interesting to see if they do it correctly.

Dallas suffered with some horrible play on the OL but then selected LT Tyron Smith in 2011, C Travis Frederick in 2013 and then Zack Martin last year. All three made the Pro Bowl this year and the Cowboys were 12-4 during the regular season.

No room for improvement based on a total of 19 starts?

364 of 619 for 58.8%

29 touchdowns and 15 int's. 83.7 qbr.

Now those certainly aren't pro bowl numbers. But the kid is 6'6", 225lbs. and is 25 years old with only 19 starts under his belt.

At his size and age when combining those numbers, there's certainly room for growth. I'm not advocating he is the answer, but it amazes me how many people seem to think that Hoyer played all that well and that he is the only possibility to be our starting QB next year.

I KNOW Foles is better than anything WE can draft for the next two seasons so I would be more than happy to give up a first for him IF(big IF) we can't trade up for Mariota.

Glennon I have not really watched but by his stats I'd say he is worth a 2nd? I honestly don't know enough about him.

Manziel and Gordon are both acceptable trade bait to make that happen IMHO. For instance to draft Mariota I'd be willing to trade both our firsts this year, our first next year AND manziel and gordon to make it happen. Getting a REAL franchise QB is worth it.

It isn't a bad QB rating.

I would prefer that the franchise owner would refrain from making player personnel comments to the media.

IF TB drafts Winston or Mariota then we want Glennon I am sure that we can get him for less than a 2nd.

26th out of 33 isn't bad?

If we give up a 2nd for Glennon then everyone needs to be fired. Josh Freaking McCown started over him. Josh Freaking McCown.

I certainly do not want to bring back Hoyer as our starter. But if the options are trading assets for a guy who I don't think is all that good and starting Hoyer, then I choose Hoyer.

Gordon has trade value. Although he is a risk he has proven he can play at the NFL level.

Manziel at this point is Brown under contract. He has not proved a thing. The organization has made it clear he will have to compete to play. He will not be going anywhere.

Mariota is worth going after. You measure what it would take.

I would be willing to give three first. I doubt the Browns will go that route.

I could see them going after the third rated quarterback whoever that may be on their board.

I think that's more of an indictment on Lovie Smith than Glennon.



If TB and Philly really are moving on, then you won't need to spend that much. If TB drafts a QB you could probably get Glennon for a 4th or 5th.

Philly might be inclined to give up Foles for say a 3rd, if they know they can get Mariota and want some extra ammunition.

I would be ok with either move.

Johnny Manziel is a wildcard. Will he make the commitment it takes to be an NFL QB? I feel if he does he can succeed in the NFL but not in all offenses. If the Browns decide to go all in on Manziel they need to base an entire offense around his strengths. If not they need to look in another direction.

Brian Hoyer is a smart QB that just lacks the physical skill set to be a top flight QB. Where he could be an asset is if the Browns draft a younger QB with similar smarts but better physical skills. Players like Garrett Drayson and Sean Mannion come to mind. Hoyer has the ceiling of Andy Dalton but could help a young QB reach a higher ceiling.

Take a chance on a QB trying for a 2nd chance. Sam Bradford if released is a player that I feel can win if he can somehow find a way to stay healthy. I do not see any other viable options available via free agents or trades.

I would not be opposed to trading a kings ransom to draft a top QB. but not for Mariotta. I would be willing to trade Jamies Winston. He has the physical skill set to be a franchise QB. The kind of QB that can win Super Bowls in his career.

Those are the only real options in my opinion that can land the team a franchise QB in 2015. The only other option would be to trade down a few times and assemble multiple picks for the 2016 draft to better position themselves for Cardale Jones or Christain Hackenberg.

A first for Foles?!?! He has had one good year in an offense no one had seen before. He was average at best this year before getting hurt. God help us if we give up a first round pick for Nick Foles.

And McCown played worse than Glennon, and Lovie started him anyway.

I don't know if Glennon is worth pursuing or not ..... and I doubt that he is worth a 2nd ..... but on the surface, he appears to have some skills, and has played fairly well on a bad team.

I guess I'd be willing to part with a 5th round pick for Glennon on the off chance he turns out to be at least average. Average is better than most of the options we have this off-season.

He is a hell of a lot better than anything we will be able to draft over the next several seasons. He has PROVEN he can perform at the NFL level. I'll take that over what will be available for in THIS draft barring a trade up for Mariota.

An 83 QB rating with twice as many TDs as INTs isn't bad.

Bernie Kosar had a career QB rating of 81.8 and is revered as a god in Cleveland.

Bernie's career stats from pro-football-reference.

Different era. QB ratings have consistently gone up in the past 25 years since the rule change.

Now, 90 is minimum, and 100 very good.

I think people are confusing QB Rating with ESPNs QBR thingy..

Aye I think so too since with the original QBR most are barely at 80 for the season.

Nope. Not confusing it. 83 is not a good QB rating anymore. 26th out of 33 is not good.

Andrew Lucks career rating is 86..

His rookie year it was 76.5 (Followed by 87, and 96.5)

So obviously Mike Glennon is on pace to be better than Luck

In 19 career games he has 4,000 yds 29 tds 15 ints

I dont see why people think he's terrible, or how he cant get better..

Why would Tampa get rid of Glennon? Even if they draft a qb #1 overall, Glennon is signed for two more years and he's cost effective.

6/12/2013: Signed a four-year, $3.104 million contract. The deal included a $637,500 signing bonus.
2014: $546,094
2015: $687,188
2016: $675,000
2017: Free Agent

I thought Glennon was the best QB from that draft class (not a good one) pre draft. I think the negative or lack of praise from media is that he has no mobility qualities.

Throws a great ball - coming into the NFL he was a little streaky. don't know if he has become more inconsistant.

Tampa would want to draft a QB if they work out good enough to start then they have a good QB to trade. No I'm not joking viable QBs bring in their weight of draft picks in the NFL.

He's a better DA type of QB.
jmho

Because Lovie Smith doesn't perceive that he fits the system that they want to implement. It's that simple.

Lovie Smith wouldn't know a quality QB if saw one.

Want proof?

Exhibit A: Bringing in Luke McCown and naming him the starter.

Exhibit B: Letting it be known that Glennon is possible trade bait.

Exhibit C: Not trading him after the phone rings 'off the hook' from teams asking what the price tag is and starting McCown anyway.

Exhibit D: 2013 record was 4-12 / 2014 record was 2-14.

Exhibit E: Luke McCown had a 1-10 record as the Bucs starter with 11 TDs, 14 INTs. Glennon replaced him and the team was 1-4 (2 OT losses) with 10 TDs, 6 INTs.

Glennon is 5 times the caliber of QB that Derek Anderson is.

Then you should become Glennon's manager because he's not getting 5 times the money of Anderson. He's not even getting as much over the same time frame.

Because of the new CBA... but that's beside the point. He'll have 5 times the career as Anderson even if he lasts just 4 years in the league (and he should last much longer than that).

I agree with most of what you stated except I really like Mariota.

I have stated all over why. I liked him last year.

He has everything you look for in a quarterback prospect. The knock only comes from the Oregon offense he ran which will be meaningless after a year in the NFL.

Just watch him throw the ball.

j/c

You know, after going over this thread a few times in as many days, something dawned on me.

I wish Haslam would have said, "They've got to get a QB in 2015" instead of "We've got to get a QB in 2015".

Haslam never said 2015.

This is the last time that I am going to say anything about Mariota.

For all the doubters out there do yourself a favor.

Really go back and watch his games. Put in some time and study him. Watch more than one game or a few highlights.

If I own the team I'm saying WE, heck just being a fan most of us say WE.

Aren't you being a little paranoid about Haslam? He's a hands on owner. Heck most here were doing some silly Elaine dance when he bought the team. He hasn't come close to proving to be a Jerry Jones or a Snyder type.

I don't see evil.

jmho

Oh I'm not saying he's meddling or not trying to say he's evil. But I certainly do wonder.

How is Nick Foles horrible?

I am not saying he will be available, but if he is, he certainly would not be a horrible choice.

I have. I told you he is going to have a hard time making it last year and everything he did this year hasn't changed my mind.

He is a one-read QB who sees half the field and even a quarter of the field on almost every throw.

Did you see how many times he bailed against Ohio State. He made one read, it wasn't there, and he starts moving all over the place. That won't work in the NFL.

Furthermore, there is a very legitimate reason why his red zone numbers were so much worse than the rest of the time. He actually had to read coverages in the red zone and he was incapable of pulling it off.

Maybe I said the wrong thing. . .

I don't think Nick Foles is horrible. I think he is average. He has looked much better because Chip Kelly's system is as QB friendly as it gets. Even in that system there were times when Foles did not do well.

If Foles was available I would guess that he would cost at least a third round pick. I don't think that Foles is worth that price. If the choices were re-sign Hoyer and not give up any compensation or trade a 3rd round pick (or more) for Foles, I would re-sign Hoyer.

Because of the lack of talent available at the QB position Foles is probably the best player available at that position. That does not mean he is good.

I have a question on this, if you don't mind. In the NFL, do systems make a good QB or do good QBs make the system good? The reason I ask is if the QB makes the system good, then there may only be 1 good QB coming out of college every 5 years or so. If the system makes the QB, then average QB could be made into an above average to great QB.

In College - it is obvious that systems tend to make good QB's...if the opposite is true in the NFL then it explains why there is so few successful QBs at the next level.

I think this is a special case. But for the most part I think if the QB is good, the system will be good.

Chip Kelly's system is known to have easy reads and wide open receivers. You also don't have to huddle.

Then do I have a QB for him....

Not sure if I'm correct. But at the end of the season wasn't Foles back and healthy but Kelley had Sanchez starting over him? Not quite sure.

All college quarterbacks have to learn a new NFL system when drafted.

They also have to learn NFL defenses. It takes time.

I acknowledge that the offense run by Oregon is designed as a get open, one read, fast paced spread option system.

That does not change the accuracy 68% comp, the low int rate (lowest in history), the quick release, the size and speed that Mariota has.

Nor will it make a difference in a year or two.

What Mariota has is the skill set and work ethic to succeed at the NFL level.

Andrew Luck was the best college prospect I have ever seen. He played 4 years and graduated. He came from a NFL friendly system. He started day one. He has struggled at times.

Newton came from a spread. He has struggled at times.

You make it in the NFL with the right skills and the determination to be the best player you can be.

Mariota has the skills and the character required.

He will need coaching and patience. Once he he gets settled in a little. He will be really good.

Vers - you're right but that's the offense he was asked to run. You have to project a guy like Mariota based on his talent and ability.

By all accounts, he has a killer work ethic and is a very bright guy... I have to think that if he's brought up properly in the NFL, he'll put in the work and is smart enough to learn how to go through reads and progressions. Everything is there both physically and mentally for him to be a star but the experience.

Let's be honest, if Mariota were coming out of a pro style offense having done what he did last year statistically, we wouldn't even have a chance to trade up to get him because Tampa would already be selling his jersey.

Might be a potential QB on the market: Nick Foles of Philadelphia Eagles.

http://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/r...e_head_18157340

"Foles had a breakout 2013 campaign for the Eagles, putting up 27 touchdowns compared to two interceptions in 13 games (10 starts). Fresh off a performance that saw the former third-round pick lead Philadelphia to the playoffs that season, many expected progression in 2014. Instead, Foles put up a less-than-stellar season prior to missing the final eight-plus games with a collarbone injury. He threw just 13 touchdowns compared to 10 interceptions in eight starts."

13 TD's and 10 INT's in eight starts ain't great but, sad to say, a lot better than our three QB's did down the stretch.

Maybe our new OC could get him back to year one performance????????

I can only judge by OSU's National Championship triumph over his lads.

He did complete some nice passes, and had a few more dropped by his receivers on important third downs. Does have a nice motion. One comment I remember from announcers was that the rap against him is he doesn't do well if his primary receiver isn't open: doesn't go through progression to #2, #3. Don't know how accurate that is, though, cause I just saw the Buckeyes D pretty much shut him out after first drive (except for that fast, long TD to pull Oregon to within 21-17 in 3rd Q).

The key is what you said "Project" also meaning a project as in transition to the NFL.

The kid without a doubt is an Athlete. He might be the most coachable kid around. And it does seem like he has that positive. He seems to have all the ducks in a row to make it. BUT and its a big BUTT. If he gets thrown in day one he might get ruined. If he can sit a year and learn he might become great? Well odds are better. So that brings us to how early will he get picked and who early won't be tempted to play him right away. He could slip close to our #12 pick.

But its still a sign Hoyer and let him sit and learn situation.

JM only thing holding him back is his head.

Yep I'm doing that hoping it puts in that 100%.
jmho

Agreed... and I know it would cause a few fans to riot but doing the exact same thing we did last year (Hoyer starting, rookie (now Mariota) watching) is probably our best bet at getting QB solved. I would put money on it that Mariota with 12 games to learn would be night and day from what we saw with Johnny.

As far as Johnny giving it 100%... maybe in the club. He's as likely to give football everything he's got as Gordon is to avoid suspension from here on out. He just loves to party way too much and studying like Peyton Manning would get in the way of that.

"Let's be honest, if Mariota were coming out of a pro style offense having done what he did last year statistically, we wouldn't even have a chance to trade up to get him because Tampa would already be selling his jersey."
=========================================================

If Mariota went to Stanford or Florida State he would have been asked to do more of what is typical in the NFL.

All that is related offensive schemes. It still has no bearing on reading NFL defenses and the speed of the NFL game.

All quarterbacks would benefit from the experience that Aaron Rodgers got at Green Bay. Or what Garoppolo is getting at New England.

If Andrew Luck would have come to the Browns and played day one; does anyone really believe that he would have led the Browns to a Super Bowl Championship in the first year?

So what difference does it make that Mariota would benefit from sitting and learning behind Hoyer?

The point is he you have to have a quarterback solution for 10 plus years. That will give you a chance to win a title.

Rodgers has one championship. Brees has one. Brady, Manning, Ben those guys give you a chance because the play at quarterback is consistently good over many years.

If the Browns are ever going to win a title they need "a man" who can lead men.

Mariota has those makings.

Super Bowl? No.

But we would of easily made the playoffs in 2012..

But then Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur would probably still be here..

*shudders*

A couple of comments on this thread since last time I was here:

--Foles. The guy has a very strong arm. He is huge. He throws a nice ball. Shows good accuracy. Great deep passes. I think it is more than scheme. I really can't believe Philly will let him walk, though. He's just too good. On the other hand, he doesn't really fit Kelly's system. So.......maybe there is a chance. If he becomes available.......he is our guy.

--Mariotta. I like the kid's athleticism, size, and character. I am not saying I am right, but guys, he doesn't read coverages. I know he wasn't asked to do it a lot, but when he was...........he was unable to. Ohio State made him look stupid and our defense is not all that. As soon as he was pressured, he abandoned the pocket and started moving around.....very Manziel like. Furthermore, once inside the redzone, his numbers dropped dramatically. Why? Because he had to make reads in tighter windows and he could not do it. The NFL is like that all of the time. You don't teach reading coverages. It's natural. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Vers, have you looked at all at Sean Mannion? I mentioned that I wanted us to look at an experienced QB, who ran a pro style offense, and who has solid physical traits, but who may fall in the middle of the draft and cfrs15 brought up Sean Mannion's name. I looked a a ton of his videos, and he seems like a guy with a lot going for him, with room to improve. He ran a pro style offense, and has an NFL arm. He is not a runner by any stretch of the imagination, but he seems like a guy who might be a diamond in the rough.

He seems to understand that he doesn't have to win a foot race to be effective in the NFL, but rather he has t see what is going on around him.

Here is a piece about him from the Senior Bowl. He seems like a guy who has his head on straight. I should also add that he lost 2 of his top receivers, Marcus Wheaton after his sophomore season, and Brandin Cooks after his Junior season. (those 2 guys accounted for 106 receptions in the NFL this past season, Wheaton in Pittsburgh and Cooks in New Orleans)

What do you think of him? (if you have even watched him at all)I think that he seems like a guy who might be worth a shot in the middle rounds of the draft.

Senior Bowl 2015: Oregon State's Sean Mannion shows NFL teams he has 'a different sort of speed' | OregonLive.com
http://www.oregonlive.com/collegefootball/index.ssf/2015/01/senior_bowl_2015_oregon_states.html

The door was open for the six quarterbacks taking part in the Reese's Senior Bowl to improve their status with NFL teams heading into the NFL Combine and eventually the all-important NFL draft. That list included Oregon State's Sean Mannion.

According to many NFL scouts and analysts, none of the quarterbacks in Saturday's Senior Bowl – the list also included Baylor's Bryce Petty and East Carolina's Shane Carden along with Mannion on the North team that won 34-13 and Alabama's Blake Sims, Colorado State's Garrett Grayson and Southeastern Louisiana's Bryan Bennett on the South – improved their draft status during the week.

Regardless, Mannion, the 6-foot-5, 227-pounder, said he was happy to receive the invitation to take part in the game and for the opportunity to work out in front of NFL personnel in a competitive situation.

"I really felt comfortable with the offense and everything and it felt great throwing the ball," Mannion said following one of the North practices.

The Tennessee Titans coaching staff directed the North team all week and players also took part in one-on-one interviews with representatives from each of the other 31 NFL teams, providing the opportunity for scouts to see players on the field as well as meet with them off the field to learn more about them and their football and other philosophies.

"A lot of it is getting to know me and know what kind of guy I am off the field and just talking football," Mannion said. "We're not really talking about specifics of last season so much. (There's been) a little bit about plays here and there, but it's not that analytical at this point. A lot of it is getting to know what kind of guy I am and my personality as a football player.

"I think I'm a pretty calm, mild-mannered guy. I try to just be a constant force on the field. I never want to be this guy going up and down all the time, mentally and emotionally. I just try to work really hard and do whatever I can to help our team win. As a player, I feel like I can make all the throws and I feel really comfortable in this pro offense."

The two-hour daily practices were considered the most important aspects of the week and it was there that Mannion said he hoped he made a good impression with teams.

"I'm not really coming in here with that mindset of proving something,'' he said. "I'm coming in here to play great football. I want to show them I can make all the throws. I'm not coming in here with an agenda, if that makes sense. I'm coming in here to play quarterback like I've always played it and really show that I have total control of the offense and I can make all the throws."

In Saturday's game, Mannion completed 9 of 14 passes for 94 yards and one touchdown. He threw a 10-yard scoring strike to Notre Dame tight end Ben Koyack early in the second quarter that gave the North a 10-7 lead at the time. He also had two carries for six yards.

But it was during the week of practice, under the watchful eyes of so many NFL evaluators, that Mannion said he felt he made some progress.

"I think they see that I'm not the fastest guy in the world, so in a certain sense that's a weakness," he said. "But I do think (I have) a pocket awareness, and to me that's a different sort of quickness. Being quick in short, small spaces, I think that's something I do well and I think I've done that well over the years at OSU. I think I always try to be quick and move well in the pocket.

"An important thing too is to keep your eyes downfield and feel the rush and not look at it, which is something I think I do well. It's a different sort of speed than running the 40 necessarily; it's about feeling the rush and being able to move short and quickly, always ready to throw from the pocket, which I do."

Mannion said the fact the OSU offense operated out of the huddle often helped him in the switch to running a pro-style offense. Overall, he hopes NFL teams will recognize the positives he feels he brings to the position.

"My focus here is to show things that I can do and really just come out here and play great football and work really hard at it,'' he said. "Whatever situation I end up in in the draft, I'm just going to be a guy who works really hard to help the team win games regardless of whether I'm No. 1 or No. 2. I'll prepare as though I'm the starter and just work at the things that I can do and help the team win."

Oregon State cornerback Steve Nelson had four tackles in the Saturday's game, three of those being solo stops. He also collected a pair of pass breakups. Punter Kyle Loomis of Portland State was called on to punt only once but he booted that one 47 yards and caught the eye of scouts during the week of practice.

I'm glad Haslam agrees that we need quarterback help...

My vote in the draft remains for Bryce Petty.

However with news breaking last week (and yesterday) about the Eagles wanting Mariota and Foles being on the trading block I see absolutely no reason why we can't at least call the Eagles and see what they would want in return. Foles has a 15-9 record and has thrown 46 TDs to just 17 INTs and he's only been in the league 3 seasons (So he's still young).

If we can't get Foles, how about someone like Sam Bradford?

Either way, yes, we absolutely need quarterback help.

I'm off the Manziel bandwagon, as I'm sure most of us are.

He's the type of mid to late round QB I hope we draft. I know the talk is about Winston and Mariota.

2 things can happen. They go real quick and we don't even sniff the two. Or one or more drops which means there are reasons they drop do we take the chance and cause another mayhem surrounding the QB position. 2 First round QBs - neither ready to start?

Odds are we will go and use our 3 top 50 picks for positional players that will provide some impact in 2015.

Mid to late round QB one of which would be a kid like Mannion.

Mannion might be a 4th round pick area.

I want a kid that would be in the Shaw role and learn - Upgrade on Shaw and who knows 2-3 years from now.

jmho

Can't say much about Foles.

But we've had a very long discussion on Bradford and while most feel he's a heck of a QB, there is little chance of him staying healthy. Why bother?

The Eagles have to be looking for enough ammo to trade up for Mariota (IMO). What can the Browns possibly give them? Do we really let #12 and #19 (and maybe more) go for Foles? Is he a product of Kelly's system? I think the price tag is too high given our needs at this point. I feel like it's Hoyer, a veteran FA and Shaw. Bury Manziel on the PS or just dump him.

I would give up our #19 pick for Foles. I would not give up both. If your going to give up that much then we might as well trade up to get Mariotta since our trade ammo is much better than the eagles.

Personally I have no interest in Foles.

There is no way he is worth a first round pick.

I'm sure that the Eagles will look to see how much they need to trade up for Mariota if they determine that they have a shot. I'd like him to fall to #12 and then have the Eagles come calling.

And, if you believe that Foles is a product of Kelly's system and you bring him here, there is obviously a solution to that - you do your best implementation of Kelly's system here. I would think that would be obvious but apparently it isn't.

Personally, I have a lot of interest in both Foles and Glennon but I wouldn't give up a first rounder for either one.

"You don't teach reading coverages. It's natural. I could be wrong, but I doubt it."
=====================================================

Completely disagree. When you come into the NFL you have to learn reading coverages.

In fact you learn every week as you prepare for each game.

The position of quarterback is a never ending learning process. You study constantly.

Film work is all about looking at how teams disguise coverages.

You don't just come into the NFL as a finished product and never grow. That is why they have quarterback coaches and OC's. Players gain experience over time through constant reps and studying. Unless your Johnny Doolittle

I like Foles and Glennon and I would give up #19 for either one of them.

I'd take Foles in a heartbeat and easily give up #12 for him but not both picks. Too many needs on this team at the moment. I'm not sure that would give Philly what they need to trade up for Mariota, though.

I think this all hinges on the Hoyer contract status. If we sign him, our picks are used on WR and DL. If we can't sign him, I think they make a play for Foles.

We have such a solid history of selecting Pro Bowl players with our first rounders, we better not waste one trying to solve the QB riddle!

Sorry but both of you and others think way to highly of our first rounders. If I could get a QB like Tom, Peyton, Aaron... I give anything. BUT for a mid range QB I have to get a really good deal or I have no interest. I just don't get that.

this convo is scaring me

yall would give up a 1st for foles or glennon?

glennon?

ugh.

I like the kid from what I have been able to learn about him. He seems like a guy who has a lot of the traits a successful QB needs, and he just needs additional development.

I can understand that. My implication was that it wouldn't take a 1st rounder to acquire either one.

Definitely wouldn't take a 1st to get Glennon.

I think that if the Eagles put Foles on the market then there could be a bidding war. I think Foles would take at least a 2nd but could require a 1st to obtain him.

Maybe, I don't think that it would take that much to get him from Philly if they put him on the block.

How many teams are going to be vying for him? Not many because there would be other QBs on the market and in the draft.

No, not really. I scanned some online scouting reports/player profiles and he is one guy who caught my eye. I mentioned him in another thread, but I never followed up and watched video on him.

Thanks for the article. I will try and watch some vids. Just not into it this year. I thought last year was our year to get a qb.

I don't like this draft at all and I especially don't like the QBs, but again, I haven't studied it like I did last year.

And I completely disagree w/that. You teach qbs to read defenses pre-snap, but you don't teach them squat about reading coverages post snap. That is a gift from God.

Good post. I wouldn't give up anything for Glennon.

Foles..........he is FAR AND AWAY a product of Kelly's system. Heck, he doesn't even fit it that well. Foles would be great in a system like Norv runs or that Shanny runs.

That did not come out right. LOL.......I have the flu. Yuck. I meant Foles is NOT a product of Kelly's system. Sheesh!

The only rookie QB I'm interested in bringing in is Anthony Boone from Duke, and that's only because I think we can get him in the 7th or as a UDFA.

Whomever doesn't have a QB and can't get Mariotta or Winston.

And the Eagles or Buccaneers would love to take you up on that offer.

Lovie Smith might have a heart attack if you offer #19 for Glennon..

I like the guy.. And I think he can be productive..

But I'm not giving up more than a 4th.. Possibly a 3rd (I'd ask for a 4th back)

Especially because they are probably going to take Winston. They won't even have room for Glennon on the roster. They would likely take anything for him because a third QB is worth next to nothing.

If I'm Tampa..

I ask Philly what they are willing to give up..

Just think if TB came out of this with a 1st and 3rd this year.. 1st and 2nd next year.. AND Nick Foles?

I don't know if Philly would pay that much.. I think Kelly is a great coach, but like most, I think being the GM/PP guy may be his downfall..

It all depends on Winston. If the Bucs view Winston as a franchise guy you don't trade that pick for anything.

I would generally agree.

But Tampa is so terrible. They need SO MUCH.

They could easily make that deal.. and build around Foles (already have two good WRs)

You take a guy like Winston, and put him on a crappy team.. and that's when you see the kind of stuff people are worried about coming out.. (especially still in FL)

It doesn't matter. If their is a franchise QB available, you take him and build around him.

Foles was unsustainably good for one season in an offense no one had seen before. He is just as much of a wildcard as anyone else

I'm not disagreeing with you.

Hell I'd love to have Winston here. I honestly think we'd make the playoff next season with his kind of talent (plus some FA spending on WRs)

At this point if Bortles succeeds he will be a complete aberration. Guys who started their careers similar to him since 2006: Jimmy Clausen, Blaine Gabbert, Brandon Weeden, Josh Freeman, Brandon Weeden, Bruce Gradkowski, Matthew Stafford, Christian Ponder, Mark Sanchez, and Trent Edwards. Bortles was the third worst among that group.

I'll play your game. Maybe there are teams that have QBs but are looking for their heir apparent too.

My guess is that teams will look to get a QB that fits the system they are going to use.

So film work doesn't show post snap?

You don't learn from film how defenses cover?

A quarterback at 22 does not comes into the NFL with his whole tool box. He learns how defense set up and move post snap. They then know what to look for.

You seem stuck on that a young player comes into the NFL and that's it. He is what he is. History shows a different story. I remember when Elway came into the league. I thought he would set a record for int's. He forced throws all the time. Aikman first year 9 TD's, 18 int's. Record 1-15.

Quarterback is a position that requires learning from experience.

Tampa has gone the veteran route with Josh McCown. They have gone the rookie route with Glennon.

It would be very hard to believe that they would not hold on to the first pick and take the guy they feel will lead the franchise.

If Foles was all that why would Kelly consider trading the farm for Mariota. Answer, because Foles and Sanchez are not what Kelly perceives as "the guy".

Foles is kind of the definition of average.

I come from the school that in football it all starts with the guy who handles the ball on every offensive snap. The guy who is "expected" to lead the team.

The Browns have had one great quarterback Otto Graham. He just won championships.

Sipe and Bernie came close. Since then nothing has happened. And nothing will until this team gets a solution for 10 plus years at quarterback.

Mariota and Winston have that potential. That doesn't mean it will happen but they have the potential.

The Browns wanted Kelly real bad. He didn't want us. But if he is willing to go all in for Mariota maybe just maybe he is on to something.

Why not the Browns? What do we have to lose by going after Mariota? What do we have now? Are the Browns going anywhere with Foles or any other FA out there?

What do we do wait till we have the number one pick and a Andrew Luck, John Elway is there? What year will that be?

If the Browns are going to really do something they are going to have to take a risk. I don't mean Johnny Doolittle.

46 TDs and 17 INTs in 28 games is the definition of avaerage?

Are we really going to pretend that Foles 2013 season is something we can count on going forward? That season was quite clearly an aberration.

Clearly Nick Foles is a horrible player.

Clearly.

He should probably just quit playing football, maybe take up crocheting..

Foles is not a horrible player. Foles is an average player. Average is better than what we have had over the past decade at the QB position, but is it really something we want to give up significant compensation for?

I for one am so tired of below average QB play (22 different starters since 1999) that I am willing to give up significant compensation to get average to above average QB play! Not pointed at you CFRS15, but if we have average to above average QB we make the playoffs this year. How many other years since 1999 would we have made it? Not sure but I'm sure it would have been more than once.

Have a buddy who is a Bengals fan and he is actually complaining about Dalton. He says sure they have made the playoffs 4 years in a row, but he wants wins in the playoffs.

That would be a wonderful problem to have right?

I agree with everything you said except about giving up significant compensation for an average QB. That is the death knell.

it depends on the definition of "signficant compensation"

I would say any pick(s) within the first three rounds.

If he is all that great why are they considering a trade?

Check his trade value. A conditional second rounder.

Not unlike Matt Flynn or Matt Schaub. Have they lead any team anywhere?

I'm very interested to know what we have gotten out of any of our top 10 picks in any draft, with very few exceptions, since 1999 that would cause you to say that?

This year we have two picks outside the top 10. If we could get average or above QB play for either one of those picks, other than Joe Thomas, Alex Mack and Joe Haden, I can't think of any first round draft picks since 1999 where the return would be better.

Teams don't trade good QBs. And in the rare instance they do trade good QBs they get huge compensation back (i.e. Jay Cutler to the Bears).



Or Kevin Kolb. Or Matt Cassel. Or late career Donovan McNabb.

That's an awful reason ...because we suck at drafting ... to give up significant compensation for an average QB.

Why make any picks at all?

So you believe average NFL QB play isn't worth a #12 or #19 pick in what appears to be a pretty weak draft class?

I'm simply asking because I don't see many studs in this draft class. I see a lot more question marks than answers in this class.

Let's use the #19 pick for example. What one player in this years draft do you feel would be left on the board at #19 that could do more to improve this team than having an average NFL QB would do?

You sound angry that I don't agree w/you about Mariotta.

Why?

Aren't we here to debate? Have I been sarcastic w/you in my responses? Did I belittle you? Did I call you names?

I politely debated. Is that an issue?

I'll take average if this defines it.

No, no it's all good.

I agree to disagree. Hell it doesn't matter. The Browns are not going to get Mariota anyway.

You know you get to point of frustration with the Browns.

I just want a quarterback that I can believe in. If Manziel could lead the team to victory I would be happy. I just want to win.

Just so sick of inept quarterback play.

After all these years; you know what they say: Even a blind squirrel can find a nut. You would think just by chance they could discover one guy.

It hurts when guys like Russell Wilson get found in the third round. And here we are with with first rounders:
Couch, Quinn, Weeden, Manziel. Why is it that the Browns can not find a quarterback?

Then it gets stuck in your face when the Packers go from Farve to Rodgers. And the Colts go from Manning to Luck.

Every year Roethlisberger and Flacco take it to the Browns. Flacco 13-1 against us. Ben 18-2.

That's pathetic.

It is getting really hard to watch. Now we are looking at zero solution. Manziel and some passed around veteran FA. Or they resign Hoyer. Is Hoyer going to win consistently for years? When that blows up it's back to the draft fishing. Then it takes 2 to three years to even find out "if" you got a guy.

Hell I am running out of time.

At this point what is there to lose? The Browns have to roll the dice. Take a chance and go all in on somebody.

If Tampa takes Winston or Mariota then go to the Titans and make an offer for the other guy. Then let Manziel know you got to be the better guy to start.

I would rather do that than sit back and give the job to Manziel or watch some other guy play 500 ball.

Ill be honest, I haven't been doing this as long as some of you..

I've been a fan since I was 13, which was only 99.

But I've watched enough bad football in that 15 years, and seen enough rival teams win..

I have never seen a team I call my own with a championship. But even if the Cav, Michigan, Blue Jackets, and Indians all won a title the same year.. it wouldnt even come close to the feeling of the Browns winning a title.. Hell being competitive..

I have a Browns "Just One Before I Die" shirt.. and my roommate thought it was funny.. "only one?"

I explained to him.. its to the point, that if the Browns caught fire for one year.. and went all the way and won a Super Bowl.. and then sucked (again) right away.. I wouldnt care..

I just want that one.. I need that one..

not sure if the discussion is about average stats...or average QB play.

I like Foles, I only saw him once maybe twice in college thought he was good, I remember being surprised how much he ran.

I was pretty surprised at his production with the Eagles.

I am confused, why does anyone thing Foles is on the market.

Sanchez is a FA right? Barclay has looked a lot less valuable than I thought he would.

I can see part of the mega draft trade to move up for Mariota. I can see that are we even involved with that? If teams in the top 5 even 10 don't want him and drop him...Eagles want him and are willing to pay.

I've been surprised before but I don't see it. Unless mariota pulls a Bridgwater so he drops to the Eagles?

Foles and Glennon - Foles has more mobility. Glennon when he is in one of his streaks he is amazing of course he has the other kind of streaks. Probably for the mobility I would want Foles.

We'll see - we just might get surprised.
jmho

You know Vers. The salt in wound is we could have walked away from this last draft with both Bridgewater and Watkins or Beckham.

I watched Finding Giants and they were all over Beckham. Who I really liked in addition to Watkins.

Then you read that Bridgewater was on the radar and if they didn't make the trade for Gilbert; Farmer says Watkins was the pick.

If the Browns were going into 2015 with Bridgewater and Watkins or Beckham going into their second year together: Man I would be crazy excited.

But no, here we are again.

I agree w/you here, bone.

We have pretty much agreed in the past. You and I were the first two guys all over Luck..........when he was a freshman. Yeah, I remember that.


I just don't see it w/Mariotta, bro. No hard feelings. We don't have to agree. Hell, you could be right. I could be wrong. No big deal. Nothing personal, man...........just putting out my two cents.

Early on in the draft, Beckham Jr. was my top WR. I thought we might be able to get him in the second because a lot of reports had him rated low. Loved the guy. I backed off after I saw him get a first round grade, but I always thought he was way better than Watkins, and I live in SC and saw Watkins quite a bit. The other guy I liked was Jordan Matthews. Was hoping for him in the second after Gordon was suspended.

But yeah.........can you imagine that we actually could have had Teddy, Beckham Jr, and Buffalo's first round pick if Farmer would have played it right?

Man, that is freaking incredible!

And I know some wise ass will come on here and say that hindsight is 20/20 as if it is some revolutionary comment...LOL......but, I know that myself, and others, would have been all over those picks if they were available.

We blew it..............again!

I must be misunderstanding. are you saying you would have drafted Beckham Jr and Bridgewater together in the first round?

You (rightly) would have taken Bridgewater with the first first round pick. Meaning no OBJ.

I think everyone on this board would say that they would take OBJ, Bridgewater, and Buffalo's #1 over what we actually did. If they don't they need to get their head checked.

Everyone can draft better a year after the draft. It is a time honored tradition.

Beckham moved up from late first/early second to mid first after the combine. The Giants had some special insight as Eli threw to him during the off season. The Giants did their homework and drafted him at 12, which raised eyes at the time.

Good choice. The Browns would have been laughed at if they took him at 9, which turned into 8, because we were concerned Minny would take him at 8.

I agree we need a qb no doubt. Since the merger in 1970 we've only had 2 good to very good qb's BK Brian Sipe and maybe Bill Nelson the last 2 years he was here.

When I look at our biggest rival Pitts. I also notice that even though they went to 8 SB's the've only had 2 good qb's Bradshaw and big Ben. Those 2 have led them to 7 of the 8 SB's; the other was Neil O' Donahue. Pitts. has also had a tough time getting good qb's. Kordell Stewart, Mark Malone, Bubby Brister, Joe Gilliam come to mind as qb's who were not good. Even with that group Pitts. was still competitive and in playoffs most of the time.

What I am trying to say is yes we need a very good qb to be consistent contenders but if we can't get one this year don't sell the farm build up the supporting cast so when we do finally get one we have the foundation in place to be really good for a long time. JMO

What I also meant to add was with a very good D A good O-line and running game this team will be consistently competitive, like Pitts, has been.

Agree with you Homedawg. We can't invest the kitchen sink in a QB quest cause truly its the hardest position to evaluate in their transition from College to NFL.

Continuity, Steelers stayed competitive with Continuity and specifically in their Defense which as we know if you wish to go far without that elite QB you need a top 3 D and a good rushing attack.

Wolf had said it best in his book - The Packer Way. Discussing the build up to a championship team out of the mire they were in as a team.

He stated you want to get into the playoffs you need a good QB. You want to win a championship you need a Great QB. Outside of that rare #1 D with a complimentary run game - it pretty much has been that formula.

jmho

Just would like to add...we can't give up the kitchen sink for a uncertain elite QB.

But we have to keep investing...early, mid round anywhere, we have to until we get THE GUY.

jmho

"we can't give up the kitchen sink for a uncertain elite QB."
=======================================================

Is there such a thing as a certain elite quarterback?

Even the guys taken number on in the draft have had question marks.

At some point if you are a GM you have to trust yourself. If you don't win you will get fired anyway.

And as stated the way to win consistently is with a ten plus year solution at quarterback.

The Seahawks went all in with Wilson at quarterback even though they invested heavily in Flynn.

When do you give up the kitchen sink?

What do the Browns have to lose? Another 5,6,7,8,9 win season.

The Browns have FA money. But that will not buy them a quarterback. It can help round out the team. But no team gives up a great quarterback.

We have failed many times with first round players. So really what is there to lose?

If the Browns really like Mariota or Winston and the Titans are open to trade why not go after one of them?

Look it would be great "if" Manziel could do something but can you really count on that?

Russell Wilson screams professionalism and work ethic. Does Manziel?

So we go BPA with the two first rounders. Then take a flyer later on a quarterback. What are the odds? Hell, we went after Couch, Quinn, Weeden and Manziel in the first round.

So now are you suppose be gun shy?

We don't get quarterback to lead this team and the rut the Browns are stuck in will continue.

Is there such a thing as a certain elite quarterback?

Very rare...but yes, example: LUCK.

jmho

I hate critiquing Marcus Mariota. Same deal as Tebow, they're both incredibly high character athletes that you want to see succeed.

Luck was as close as it gets for a number of reasons.

He played four years. He played in an offense that let him display pro type skills.

He checked the box in size and speed.

There was not one aspect of the position that he did not do well. Accuracy check. You have to be accurate.

His character and work ethic was never in question.

I was in 11th grade when the Browns won the championship in 1964.

Andrew Luck was the best college/professional prospect I have ever seen. And even now I go out of way to watch him play. I called him the best on this Board when he was a freshman.

Guys like him do not come along very often.

But that should not make a team go into shell about going all in on some quarterback prospect.

I am very aware that people doubt Mariota. And I understand their reasoning.

At the same time I believe he will become a great player in the NFL.

I know you are a big fan and pimping Mariota.

I'm not going to kick anyone who swears by a prospect down. I remember discarding guys opinions who had pimped Big Ben, I thought it was a local thing. Now I consider it the dumbest NONE move we ever made in the draft.

I didn't stick to my guns with Rodgers. As in the beginning QB debate between Smith and Rodgers I championed him. Then all of a sudden he started dropping way past our #3 pick...out of the top 10 on every mock draft. I started pimping Merriman the last month or so.

I was fooled by the enthusiasm of Diam regarding BQ thought we finally made the right move. That didn't work out well.

But there are certain QBs you just know he is the guy and will be elite. For me they have to be special in their Accuracy and I don't mean Stat from College I mean accuracy. Luck & Bradford had that type of accuracy so did Rodgers why I had pimped him early in the 05 draft. Actually I did think Bridgewater was special accurate...I just got confused by that Pro Day. That was the weirdest thing I ever saw.

Not on the band wagon of Mariota for several reasons.
1. I don't think we will be looking to sign a QB early (12-19)
This regime made an investment early last year and I know the media is doing their best to depict him as a done hot dog as in stick a fork in him. But I think our plan was always to sit him 2014 and start to let him really compete 2015.

Would that prevent us from investing in a Mid-late round pick or a vet to challenge the starting position? I don't think so but to move up a little to get him. I don't think so.

2. 2 Things will happen with Mariota, he will start to prove himself more n more as the elite QB you think he is, in that case we just won't have a shot at getting him.
Second would be he starts proving more n more the risk and has him dropping. IN that case see #1.

3. I just don't see that special accuracy.

I just think this year we take two special players in the first LOS hard tough football players that will give some impact early. JM will be better groomed (if he isn't all in mentally void this statement) If a Hoyer or another FA vet QB beats him out in the beginning so be it but he will be groomed this year to start, not scout QB.

Next year might turn out to be a great draft class for QB. We'll see how that turns out.

Despite the negatives being put out there...I got a feeling we are not close to giving up on JM. 2016 could be a different story.

I think we will have enough continuity to make our team considerably better despite the supposed toughest schedule.

Injuries will dictate a lot. QB wise.

If you are looking to draft one high maybe start looking at 2016 draft. Who knows what Mid round guy we might take and he ends up blossoming. Could we be so lucky to get a Montana, Brady or a Wilson?

jmho the title of this thread "IN 2015" I don't really see a drafted QB helping us in 2015 including Mariota.

Luck also played in a pro style offense, which Mariota doesn't and I think that is what scares people off the most.

Even though Farmer was quoted as liking Mariota last year I agree that the Browns will make no move to get him.

Disagree about accuracy. His numbers back it up.
Just watching him throw. His release and accuracy is consistent.

The Browns will stick with Manziel and some hack they bring in to "compete".

Manziel made a fool of himself this year. But like Weeden he will get his chance. What he does with that opportunity remains to be seen.

Manziel, his backup, or any quarterback drafted will not help the Browns win a championship next year or any time soon.

It will take a quarterback with true potential to lead a team along with continuity within the organization over a three to four year period. See Luck and the Colts.

The Browns are not on that track.

Until they find a real quarterback they will remain where they are right now.

I'd give up the kitchen sink for an uncertainty so long as I liked him enough. You can't always get a sure thing, sometimes you have to gamble. Hell, I'd draft a QB every year as soon as we have serious doubts about the guy on our roster. Your point is dead on though.

Everyone wants to build up depth and bolster other positions. Without a QB, it DOES. NOT. MATTER. PFF has us as a Top 10 roster in football, 5 holes away from contending for a SB. We have had 8 different players make the Pro Bowl over the last 2 years. None of that matters... we have all that elite "depth" and we haven't even had a winning record since 2007 because for how close we are everywhere else, it means nothing if QB is one of our gaping holes.

Every single year, we should be pouring assets into QB until we find one. Our coaching staff doesn't like Johnny? Draft another. They don't want to start Hoyer? Bring in someone else. It doesn't matter if we "need" a WR. Russell Wilson's WRs are nothing. Brady's are scraps minus Gronk.

We've had so many bad picks and busts, I don't even care about giving up extra assets. If Mariota is our guy, make it happen. Everyone gives the Rams props for fleecing the Redskins in the RGIII trade because he didn't work out but you know what? For all those picks and the good players they got, they suck too. Bradford can't stay healthy and for all those picks, they didn't get a QB.

Our draft needs aren't WR/ILB/DT/RT, they're QB/QB/QB/QB because until we get a great one, nothing else is a higher priority. We need to throw assets at it until we FINALLY get it right.

We are on the same page Spectre.

It is all about the quarterback. Has been and always will be.

Luck did not play 4 years in college. Sorry. He came out of Stanford as a Junior and was a 3-year player.

Haslem is giving Johnny notice ... Straighten up or get out ... JMHO

I don't understand your question. Please elaborate.

Yes, and why we didn't suck for Luck like Indy did is another testament to how crappy our front office was!

We could have had Watkins, Beckham, an extra third round pick, and Jimmy Garoppolo. I cry and then throw up just thinking about it. Chances are we would have locked down Shanny for several seasons with a draft like that. I mean who would not want to be the OC of that much talent.

I think Payton Manning fits as well.

Carr is much better than Bridgewater, but of course we could have had our choice. Now I see mocks and fans talking about us taking a cornerback early, too. Please shoot me.
Manziel and Gilbert could still turn things around. but right now, Farmer's draft looks like the kind that haunts the team for 10 years.
I think the front office should just draft front seven types until they figure out how to do their jobs. Those picks are safest. They obviously don't know how to spot red flags in an interview.
We have two first rounders (again) and I am terrified at what Farmer might do with ten.

How is Carr "much better" than Bridgewater?

When the three of the players that Farmer traded for exhibit the same work habits something is wrong.

Scouting 101 you have to draft guys who want to work. Whose actions show they want to work. The coaches who coached them verify their work habits.

In addition Farmer was given a mission. Draft a franchise quarterback.

They conducted a lengthy study.
============================================

"Early last offseason, the Browns commissioned a study on the top quarterbacks in the draft, and the results said Bridgewater was their man. But by the time the draft rolled around in May, the sentiment shifted to Manziel."==========================================

How does that happen?

"The results said Bridgewater."

Farmer drafts Gilbert to beat out Skrine. He falls behind Desir and Williams. Can't crack the starting lineup.

Farmer trades up and drafts Manziel. He can't come close to beating out Hoyer.

He trades up and drafts West. Who really is outplayed by a walk on Crowell.

So having faith in Farmer as a GM is really a stretch.

His decisions will cost years.

So this coming draft I have no idea what he will do. I can only say I am not real confident.

If he finds a real quarterback I would be happy.

Did Parcell's interview of Bridgewater have an impact on the Brown's thinking? I don't know, just saying...

bone...the Big Boss ignored the study and told the draft room to go get Manziel..end of story.

Now, maybe Farmer should get a bit of a pass because he was working with someone else's scouting department. Farmer was hired as an assistant GM in March 2013 when Mike Lombardi was named GM.

When Farmer took over as GM in Feb 2014, it was too late to assemble "his" scouting department, so he worked with the people Banner and Lombardi hired.

I've read that Farmer revamped the scouting department after last year's draft so there will be no excuses for Farmer in this draft.

If the Browns blow their two first round picks this year, like it appears they did last year, this team will be in deep trouble.

Farmer gets a pass on JJO because Haslam needed him for PR work. Sell tickets, jerseys, buzz, etc. His plan worked. Unfortunately, JJO is nothing more than a party boy (with an apparent problem now that he is in rehab) with a clipboard.

Hopefully, Farmer doesn't panic and waste a 1st on a QB. Hoyer, Shaw and an undetermined veteran FA should be enough. As for JJO, well, that negative circus needs to be shut down and shipped out of town. Enough.

Farmer's draft looks like the kind that haunts the team for 10 years.

Don't forget our draft class also consisted of Williams and DeSir who actually turned out to be quite useful in the slot and DeSir improved a lot and if he continues to develop can have us sitting good with the 2014 draft class regarding CB/DB. Also as you stated Gilbert can still make the transition.

QB as the 2nd pick, well first off not many teams get a second 1st round pick so it won't be something to set us back 10 years. QB has been a crap shoot regardless of all the ones saying they wanted us to take Carr or Bridgewater. Neither one is here and who knows how it will go. We took a crapshoot on JM and he still is younger than most QBs that will be coming out in 2015 as QB prospects. We'll see what happens. When you miss on your 1st and 2nd rounders for 3-4 years in a row that is something that sets a team back 10 years.

Don't forget we did get Bitonio in the 2nd round, he looks like he is here to stay.

I do agree the LOS are safer picks and I do agree in that it will not surprise me at all if we go that way with 12 & 19 just to make sure we hit pay dirt on our First Round Picks this year. At least at 12 maybe we will take a shot at more Raw some risk high Reward at 19???

I think Haslam in his we got to get a QB in 2015 was more an obvious statement he did clarify that he's talking about establishing that meaning we can't wait too long. If its JM he has to show us more than just glimpses he has to establish if not then another.

But if he is serious about those words - I don't think he's talking about the draft. It would be for a Cutler, Bradford or even RG3.
jmho

Does he get a pass on Gilbert, too?

Pffttt...........

I think the previous regime was told to study Manziel by Haslam.

I think Lombardi spearheaded that task.

I think Lombardi and Banner were against taking Manziel, mostly because of his personal issues, which strangely, were in New England's scouting report.......a team that Lombardi got hired by after he was hired.

I think one of the reasons Banner and Lombardi were fired was because Haslam did not like their evaluation of Manziel.

I think Famer and Haslam disagreed w/the scouting department and the coaching staff in regards to Bridgewater vs. Manziel.

I think that Shanny had a real disconnect w/the FO when they drafted Manziel.

I think Pettine understands how hard it is to get a HC job and is trying to patch the mess created by Farmer and Pettine together. God bless him! And give him the strength!

Wasn't that Patriot scouting report deemed a fake at the time of its release?

(The answer is yes.)

I think Haslam went rogue on the Manziel pick.

LOL.............so how many of my "I think" comments are bogus?

I have no clue. We will never know what happened with Haslam/Banner/Lombardi.

Okay..........

I like to read. Heck, I am a teacher and even though I am teaching Math and Science right now........I preach the art of critical reading.

I also have a separate degree in English. Points of study were Creative Writing and Literary Fiction. I like to read w/a critical eye.

I don't think the points I made are too far away from reality.

We don't know what reality is, so it is hard to say how far away they are. I have a hard time believing Haslam fired Banner and Lombardi over Manziel.

That isn't what I said. I am pretty sure that I said that was one of the reasons.........

If I did not say that, I apologize. I don't think it was the only reason, as "The Three Stooges" thing was huge. I simply think it was one of the reasons.

Biggest reason they were fired is because they embarrassed Haslam during the interview of Ken Whisenhunt. The leaking that chud would be fired during the final game was bad but the Whisenhunt situation appeared to be the final straw.

BR: "Browns Considering Trade Up for QB, Mariota Top Choice"
====================================================

http://bleacherreport.com/cleveland-browns
===============================================

If the Browns land Mariota I will have to find a way to go to every game.

I will pull out all my Browns gear and wear it every day.

I will walk around with my Cleveland Browns helmet signed by Jim Brown on my head at WalMart.

I will watch every pre-season game and be glued to the tube. On opening day of the season I will need medication.

If Johnny College Football is good enough to beat him out then I will cheer for him.

All I want is a legit player at quarterback. I hope Manziel gets his life in order and is good enough to play in the NFL. It can only help.

But I really believe in Mariota. He will need time. As is the case for almost every quarterback coming into the NFL.

However, once he gets settled in the sky is limit.

Will it happen in the first year probably not but there will be indicators.

As each start goes by he will improve.

If he fails then I am wrong. But it will be worth the thrill to have some hope.

I'm sure they are considering a trade up.

I'm sure they're also considering a trade down.

I'm also sure they're considering staying put at 12 and 19.

I'm pretty sure they're considering a host of options.

Isn't Jason Cole the guy who had the error filled report on Brian Hoyer several months ago? Something tells me he is making crap up.

I like Mariota. I think, given the perfect situation, he can become a very good quarterback. I don't think we can provide that situation. I also think he is too big of a risk to give up multiple first round picks to obtain.

If we somehow got Mariota, I would hope that John DeFillipo would immediately fly to the University of Oregon and talk to Mark Helfrich about things we have to incorporate in our offense.

Mariota can start his first year, but only if he is running the exact offense he ran at Oregon. If he is forced into a pro style offense and starts right away he will fail. He needs to sit one year at least. We have no one our roster that should start over him.

How did I miss this gem?

Perhaps because you don't read critically and are just hatefully critical?

If we TRADE UP for Mariotta, I might just quit following this team. I am already disgusted w/their incompetence and poor decisions. Trading up for a guy who can't read coverages would simply verify how freaking ignorant Farmer and Haslam really are.

Put mariotta in last years class and he would be the 6th or 7th QB in my opinion.

I think he would have been the first QB taken last year. He was clearly better than Bortles, Manziel, Carr, and Garroppolo. Bridgewater, with hindsight, should probably have been rated higher, but Mariota probably would have went before him.

Logan Thomas was the 6th QB taken in last year's draft followed by Tom Savage.

You are underrating Mariota.

I'm still glad the Texans got stuck with Savage. So dumb to not only take Clowney number one, but to let Minnesota trade ahead of them for a stinking 4th round pick and take Bridgewater. Are you kidding me. obviously they couldn't take Carr, lol. they deserved to get stuck with that old Nicolas cage stunt double.

It blows my mind that both Savage and Logan Thomas were taken where they were. Both had horrible college tape, but killed the workouts. I guess they were pure upside picks.

Thomas couldn't start over Ryan freaking Lindley. And Savage looked as lost as a QB can look in his limited playing time.

The Cardinals and Texans might have liked to have Aaron Murray, A.J. McCarron, or Zach Mettenberger over those guys when they were making a playoff push.

I had Carr, manziel, Garoppolo, Bridgewater, Metlenberger and Bortles as my top 6 in that order as Bridgewater slid due to proday and Metlenberger due to physical but I have a higher grade on all of those than I do on Mariotta. I think he is similar to Bortles but i thought Bortles had more upside.

The big issue i have with marriota is accuracy. I think he can be a great QB but he becomes really stiff as a thrower and that is troubling to me. I liked Cam even though he had accuracy issues because he just looked natural throwing the ball and accuracy will almost always improve for a natural thrower but guys that look stiff have more trouble. I would let him sit for a year maybe 2 and just let him focus on being a passer.

I agree that Mariota is not a finished product and I understand why you have him ranked that way. He would have been the first QB taken last year on upside alone.

(Side note: It turns out that Mettenberger had major character issues on top of his injury which is why he plummeted in the draft.)

If we traded up, it better be for Winston, and only after we signed 2 WRs and a pass rusher in FA...

I honestly think Winston could come in and win right away, but I predict we may shy away from him due to having just already dealt with an immature QB.

Trading up for Mariotta would be a disaster IMO.

After the fiasco with Manziel and Gordon, I would almost bet good money that we don't touch a guy like Winston, who himself also comes with significant risks, based on his behavior in college. (and I am a guy who said, in Winston's 1st season, that he was a future 1st draft pick)

If the Browns had not had such a mess with Manziel and Gordon, then maybe they try to trade up, at high expense, and take Winston ..... but I just don't see it happening with those 2 shadows hanging over the franchise.

If we are going to trade up would just trade up to #2 and take whoever the Bucs don't take.

Mariota and Winston...pass. Stick to YOUR board...take BPA...hopefully we land a WR, pass rusher and C/OT. That would be a solid draft addressing some critical needs.

Elite QB? Not in this draft.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion on who to draft. Who not to draft. How to draft and where to draft.

We can debate that till Cleveland sees 80 degrees in February.

One thing remains crystal though. The Browns have to find a quarterback that can lead a team and play at a high level consistently for years to come.

Draft picks are great to have "if" you use them wisely. The Browns record with first round picks? Not too hot.

Mariota? Winston? Manziel? Weeden? Quinn? etc. etc.

Keep swinging baby. Even a bind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

We aren't the blind squirrel. We are the squirrel that is flat in the middle of the road.

No, it's just that I have a hard time buying the notion that a guy who isn't very well spoken and struggles to defend basic thesis arguments is a critical thinker with multiple degrees.

Critical thinkers don't let their emotions launch them into seething anger, nor do they tend to make baseless, heat-of-the-moment statements they have to run away and hide from because there's no defense of them.

"And boom goes the dynamite."

'We've got to get a new owner' in 2015

Sorry Jimmy, your CEO screwed the pooch and lost what little chance you had at getting that FA QB. And wait until you loose a draft pick. Might as well draft just OL to protect the 3 QBs we'll eventually field in 2015.

No offense, but Mariotta can't read coverages. He isn't even close to a couple of those qbs. He's more similar to Manziel than anyone.

Right. But based on upside alone Mariota would have been the first pick taken.

He was spoken of as being the top pick last year until he decided to go back to school.

Hell, at this time last year both Bridgewater and Manziel were talked about as the first pick. Never know. Mariota may end up available when we pick at 19. (not advocating we draft him)

How much of that was Farmer and how much was Haslam meddling? At this point I'm fed up from the top down. Haslam needs to hire decent people, which I think he has done, then he needs to get the hell out of the way, which he apparently has not done.

When he bought the Browns it was a big deal that Haslam was visiting with Kraft and others about what it takes to build a successful organization.... is this what they told him to do? Exercise veto power over good trade opportunities, go with your uneducated gut on draft picks?

I just want to see a plan put into place, and that plan stuck with..

For once.

Glad to see you back around DC!

Hard to say who like what obviously we are all speculating.

I do think you are correct that Lombardi was and would have been against signing JM. However there was not a Koom Baya effect with Banner and Lombardi at the end. I got the feeling Banner liked the prospects of getting JM and Lombardi did not. Nothing concrete but I read that things were not hunky dory with the two at the end.

jmho I still say we pull this one out of our butt and all will be well!

agreed.

I am not getting on your case, but you can't prove that. There were many players that were being considered as the first pick.

Teddy, Manziel, Bortles, Clowney, Watkins, Carr, etc.

The NFL scouts don't always see the players the same way as the media and fans do.

We'll see where he goes this year, which is a much, much, much weaker draft.

Good to see you back, DC. I hope all is well.

j/c

Interesting article from SWR (Sports World Report): (McShay's prediction was that we would not draft a QB in the first round)

To acquire one of the two top quarterbacks in the draft, the Browns have to trade up. Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer believes the Browns are preparing to trade up for Mariota or Winston instead of hoping one of them drops in the draft or grabbing someone like Brett Hundley instead. The Browns will only move up if they feel they can get one of the two best options, if not McShay's prediction could come true.

One thing the Browns will not be doing is trading Johnny Manziel despite his admission into rehab a week ago. The rookie quarterback has certainly started his NFL career on an interesting note considering he is getting himself in the headlines for everything but good football play. However, there is no trade market for the quarterback and Cleveland is aware. General manager Ray Farmer told the media that the Browns are committed to Manziel's future, but they are uncertain if he is ready to be a starting quarterback. Right now, they are not even sure if he will be ready to play come OTAs and even training camp. Manziel may be staying put, but that does not mean Browns fans will see him on the field any time soon.

One thing is certain, the priority for Cleveland needs to be re-signing Brian Hoyer. The veteran quarterback proved he can win last season, bringing the Browns a small amount of success during 2014, but he is approaching free agency and will not hesitate to walk away from the franchise. Hoyer wants to start and whether Cleveland wants to admit it or not, they are the best team for that to happen. Re-signing Hoyer at least gives the team flexibility at the position.

The Browns are a mess right now and need some stability. Josh Gordon is gone for the year. Jordan Cameron has no intentions of returning. Manziel's future is uncertain. Hoyer can be their first building block to getting back in the right direction while Mariota or Winston could be the future.

The mess is really quite simple to cut through: we don't need Gordon, Cameron, or Manziel. None of those three contributed significantly in 2014.

Move on from them all if that's how it works out, but find a way to retain Hoyer - ASAP.

Not only that, Mariota had not been vetted and scrutinized the way he will be this year. A lot of guys look great in that junior/senior year and put up big numbers, then once they declare and scouts really start breaking them down, interviewing them, watching them at the combine... a lot of shift occurs.

At one point in the 2013 CFB season, Bridgewater was the consensus #1 pick, worthy of giving up a years worth of picks to get.. He ended up as the last pick of the first round.

And thanks to everybody for the well wishes. I assure you that I've been fine, just a combination of the board issues which disrupted things for a while, being very busy at home/work, and being very frustrated with the Browns all served to keep me away for a while...

If we resigned Hoyer.

Drafted TE Maxx Williams at either 19 or 2nd round. And grabbed a WR at the other pick.. While also bring in a guy like Maclin (slight overpay)

I think our offense would be "fine" going into next year.. basically I'd just try to go back to what we were doing weeks 1-10.

Especially if the defense can continue to improve on what they were doing towards the end of the season.

It's not all peachy and great, but it's not the end of the world like some people think..

If the plan was never to use JM in 2014...why move on. I don't get that. You train him up when all has been made as in effort and there is no progress yeah move on. Is that roster spot that important. Or our we all geniuses here so much so we know for sure he will amount to NOTHING?

Sorry sometimes I don't get it I guess.

Glad to hear you are okay. And I hear you about the other stuff.

Glad you are back.

Apologize for my rants in None football related posts. Afterwards I know nobody really enjoys them...well some do but not Football posters. My Bad.

Now, don't let it happen again.

Here Vers. Read and comment:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/23548...-mostly-fiction

Nice article and I agree w/quite a bit of it. The one section I don't agree w/is the One Read QB segment. They showed one play. I remember that play. It was nice. However, in that game, there were numerous times where his initial target wasn't open and Mariotta did not stand in the pocket and read the coverages.

I saw it. I trust my judgement.

Now, the guy might evolve into a guy who can read coverages and go through his progressions, but as of right now.........he doesn't do that on a consistent basis. Heck, he rarely does it. He did have another good read early in the game where he went to his secondary guy, but those are few and far between.

You can't succeed in the NFL if that is the case. I know you are probably going to get mad at my take, but you asked me.....

The only thing I ask is, how often did Oregon even give him multiple reads?

I'm not saying he can or can't do it, but if their scheme was mostly one read, dump off, or run it.. then that's really not a negative on him I guess..

There is truth in that statement and it makes sense.

You are an Ohio State fan, right? Did you watch the game? Think about the times his primary receiver wasn't open. He didn't stay still in the pocket or move up in the pocket. He got out of sorts and we forced him into off balance throws or short yardage carries and even got a couple of sacks. He looked discombobulated.

See Vers we agree again. I watched a fair amount of Duck football. Mariotta is a nice kid. A nice story. But without a lot of work I don't see an NFL QB. He misses open receivers often partly because he throws to a lot of open receivers. I'm not sure he's got the accuracy to throw into tight windows regularly. The scheme he played in didn't often require it. His percentages were elevated by a lot of bubble screens and throws to receivers vacated by DBs/LBs crashing down on his running threat.
Can he translate his game? Maybe. Personally I want nothing to do with him unless he falls to 12. Which I don't see happening.

I think the spread rules college football, with the wider hashmarks, more room for speed players to move..

But it kills QBs overall potential to improve for the NFL. Which while isn't the "purpose" of College Football.. is the purpose of college football..

I don't think another year in Oregon would of done Mariotta any good.. Unless they completely changed their offense..

While I do think he could overall be a solid NFL QB, with time.. I don't think we have that time..

it's crazy how Cardale jones did more coverage reading than heisman winning Mariota. i know its about the offensive system but...man.

it makes me wonder if jones was a starter during the same years mariota was, and they both came out, who would had been the better prospect.

Even now, Cardale Jones is the better prospect and he's going back to Ohio State for another year.

Not mad at all.

I would not have asked if I did not respect your take.

The one point that I would make is when you watch a prospect at the stage of development that he is in; you have to factor in how will he develop from that point.

I coached baseball for over ten years.
http://www.eastcobbbaseball.com/

Seen multiple players make it to the big leagues. Saw them as teenagers.

Will the player advance in skills as more and different aspects are thrown at them?

Mariota is coming from college. No matter that it is Oregon. He will have to learn the pro game; his new offense and NFL defenses. That is the case for all players coming into the NFL.

It becomes not so much what he has done or not done. It becomes what will he be able to do. Will he take to the coaching? Will he apply what he is taught? Will he work to the max?

Mariota succeeded in college. He played at the highest level winning the Heisman. His stats back that up.

He has all the skills required to make it at the next level.

What determines "if" a player develops when the skills are there is simple.

How bad does he want it?

Mariota versus Manziel is not even worth a discussion.

Mariota has demonstrated through his actions his commitment.

I will forever love Cardale Jones for what he gave us. However, the only coverage reading he did was "Is the safety double-covering Devin Smith? Yes = dump or run. No = throw it up to him"

It was not a complex system that CJ was running. It was smart, but not complex.

Mariota did have some 2nd/3rd reads in the nat'l champ game (unusual for Oregon, honestly), but they were all WCO-style short throws. I don't think he has the mid-to-long range accuracy to get it in NFL windows at this point. But, hey, you never know and a WCO system could suit him well.

But without a lot of work I don't see an NFL QB.

The vast majority of the offensive Air craze in college football is a spread version variety. Almost all are in the ONE READ variety.

Weeden, Tannehill, Mallet, RG3, Manziel, Mariota and more. These are all QBs that would be best served learning and being taught a new game without being thrown to the wolves...all those experts and it astonishes me as some pretty well known QBs say it. Its best to have them learn ON THE FIELD. How can they say it especially with all these new Colleges yeah maybe in their experiences where if they had a passing game it was a pro style Air Attack not this new hybrid versions of the Run and Shoot which btw was tried in the NFL and failed, the only QB with success in it was Warren Moon, amazing and he took a beating!

These guys have to break down their OLD HABITS or familiarities call it what you may. FOOTBALL including the QB position is predicated on READS and REACTIONS. Especially somebody like Mariota who spent 4 years in the system. Habits, Familiarities fact is especially when the pressure is applied forcing REACTION if not broken down and then rebuilt the NFL way. That reaction will revert to their old HABITS.

Ergo Weeden good example actually - We would here about camp and practice how he's getting rid of the ball faster and making good pre snap reads...and then maybe the first 15 scripted plays he was true to that. But as the game would go along and the tempo was increased due to pressure more and more his old habits of locking onto one WR and not going through progression would seep in.

I also so it again with Dallas this year. Why I knew it was best for Manziel to sit a year or so. His old way actually should be easier to break down cause it was hardly a way. He took it upon himself to train him for year two to become a better pocket passer not the college coaches they were happy with what they had. I'm sort of glad what transpired last year. I take it as a possible total Breakdown of his Technical play. Now he is humbled and hopefully SERIOUS we can teach him from foundation on up and make him an NFL version of what he can be!

Mariota will take the same method. Now he might have more Maturity than Manziel but there is still a risk that he might or might not make the TRANSITION. If he is thrown to the fire, unless it is the EAGLES, I think he will be doomed/retarded in his growth/could become damaged goods.

There is no denying the kid has TALENT. But there is risk as in the TRANSITION. Luck, Bridgewater and Winston are a short list of those who will not have the difficulties in transition well not as much as Spread offenses with ONE READ System.

jmho

Cardale made some reads in the game and Devin Smith wasn't the only targeted receiver in the game. In fact, Devin Smith had two receptions.

Neither QB in that game was making NFL reads. Both would be overwhelmed if asked to run an NFL offense.

I was talking about his entire 3-game run, but Cardale wasn't asked to go through real progressions. That is okay, it's a college offense, which are not currently setup like NFL offenses (they do not need to be).

Maybe. I think that Cardale Jones show much more promise especially after such a short time to prepare. He's proven more in his short time than Johnny Manziel ever showed and Mariota had 3 years in the same system and couldn't get the job done.

Then, take in consideration his size, his arm (no, it isn't a rehash of JaMarcus Russell). Jones obviously has more brains than JaMarcus Russell ever had.

I think you should take another look at the game if you get the opportunity.

I LOVE Cardale, but I can't go along with the claim he proved more in college than Johnny Manziel. I'm down on Manziel, too. But he was electric in college. I have not forgotten that.

Or Mariota. The sample size for Jones is waaaaaaaaaay too small.

Cardale accomplished in three games something that Manziel couldn't do.

It helps when you have a great defense, and more than one good offense skill player..

Sure it does. That helps at the NFL level too.

So we are crediting Cardale Jones with all Ohio State's success? Braxton Miller or J.T. Barrett couldn't have done that? Did you see Texas A&M play last year without Manziel?

Well, Braxton Miller had nothing to do with it. J.T. Barrett did his part but he didn't finish the season, Cardale Jones did.

By your logic, I would turn it around and ask, "Couldn't Cardale Jones have done it from season's start?"

In regards to Johnny Manziel and A&M, did he ever win the college football championship? No? Isn't that the goal?

Of course they would, initially.. Almost every QB that comes into the NFL gets overwhelmed until they settle in and get some coaching.

jc...

Brett Hundley out of UCLA is a nice prospect who will likely work himself into the first round.

I usually don't get into these draft things...but I have done a little film study to see if there is talent that will not cost the Browns an arm and leg in draft picks to move up.

We need all our draft picks and Hundley could be available to the Browns without moving up.

There is titled post that I put up about Hundley.

Honestly I have barely looked at him. People are all over the range with him. Some think he is not even draftable. Others see him as the third quarterback taken at the end of the first round or top of the second.

College quarterbacks are not easy to decipher. Not many colleges run a pro style offense. So it becomes very difficult to evaluate the players coming from those non-pro offenses. You don't get to see them executing plays that they will have too in the NFL.

You have to forecast their development.

Hundley has all the physical requirements. He throws a nice ball with a quick release. Of course there is a lot more to it than that.

As the draft approaches more and more will come out. Plus for me I will look further under the hood.

So Cardale Jones was solely responsible for Ohio State's title?

I would like to know which games you have watched that make you think Hundley should be a first round pick.

Yeah.. In the 3rd round..

So Cardale Jones would have won the national championship with the 121st ranked defense in the country?

How do you get that out of what I wrote? He certainly was a component of it though.

We were simply speaking of QBs though, since that is the subject of the thread.

I would say that Cardale Jones outplayed the opponents defense.

He defeated Oregon's 31st ranked defense in the Championship game.

He defeated Alabama's 6th ranked defense in the Sugar Bowl.

He defeated Wisconsin's 18th ranked defense in the Big Ten Championship.

yep.

A Third string QB outplayed a Heisman trophy winner.

Because you said that Manziel didn't win the National Championship, so that means that his team had nothing to do with it.

That running back didn't have anything to do with these victories. All Cardale.

I made this comment January 23rd. Since then: Canfora's article about the Mess in Berea starts w Haslam out 02/03 and the Farmer responsible for texts to sidelines news was out 02/04.

I think most people are comfortable w the idea that these texts were at the behest of Haslam and Farmer is taking the hit for Haslam.

No one said anything about my initial comment. I have been on record as saying I am embarrassed to have Haslam as the owner of my beloved Cleveland Browns franchise. I took some crap on this board for saying that.. the one that did it knows who he is.

As I read various threads such as the 5 step plan for the Browns.. I see numerous comments to the effect of muzzle Haslam and Scheiner.. keep them OUT of player personnel decisions.. put their cell phones on airplane mode etc.. Now of a sudden it looks like I was right.

I will from now on address haslam in lower case. He's a crook, a thief and a meddlesome jackass. I would love for him to redeem himself a lil bit and hire a mentor for Farmer.. A Bill Polian or better yet, a Ron Wolf.

Please haslam, keep your damn mouth shut and quit ruining our franchise, let the football people do their jobs.

OK, Now I feel better

I have seen little about Hundley's performance that says that he will even be a capable NFL QB, let along a star QB.

I have trouble seeing hi getting into the 1st round. He has been mostly "stuck" in his development for years now, and has done little to improve.

What do you see that makes you think that he is a "nice QB prospect"?

If it was me I apologize.
But I don't think he is evil. I never wished for us to get a hands on owner - I was ok with an owner hiring football people to take care of football. But it was not working out so I didn't go ape over the new ownership. But many applauded that we would finally have a hands on owner.

Put yourself in his place. You just bought a team for a Billion $. You wish to win the first year didn't go to good as you had to attend to the family business and relied on a hire Banner to run things.

Now you are the owner and in the house pretty much daily. I would actually be shocked if there wasn't some - HEY WE GOT TO DO THIS involved.

The text thing. Don't know until the facts - all I know as I watched that Bengal game I was pretty pissed off too. Don't know what I would have done if I was actually the owner. I'd probably hire a guy to calm me down and give me more heart meds...lol

No where near a Jones, Snyder or Modell in meddling. And he knows probably more football than Snyder and Modell.

Hard to call what kind of person and owner he is - the first year he wasn't around, the second was his first as active owner. We made the move or he did, I wish to see it play out. 5-10 years. We aren't losing cause of him. Continuity is #1, all on the same page is #2.

As long as Farmer and Pettine stay on the same page we will move forward in the right direction. Best thing we can do is win, so Farmer can get more CREDS to say, "Thanks boss I will give that strong consideration" and then make his own decisions.

jmho

In regards to the inference that we are looking to move up to draft Mariota.

1. Its that time of year where unfortunately we cannot believe a darn thing we hear or read about the draft and teams concerns and possible dealings.

2. 2 First rounders to move up for a QB considered to have risk factors?

3. How old is Mariota?

4. Seems our QB coach has experience after all as he is being hired by AGENTS to cram the QB prospects with Technique improvements and with success. So their value will rise.

5. No other team should have a heads up on Mariota as much as the Browns. So whatever decision we make, Move up for him, Let him drop to 12 and take him - let him drop to 12 and trade him to the Eagles.

Whatever our final decision would be - I think we would be the most educated team to make any decisions on Mariota.

jmho

True. But this similar report came out last year as well. Possibly AFTER Mariota said he was going back to Oregon. The AFTER part I'm not sure about but do know Farmer was tied to liking Mariota one year ago.

Edit: This article came out Feb. 11th, 2014....over two months after Mariota announced a return to Oregon. (No real need for smokescreens at that time, right?)

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...us-mariota-best

I'm not saying these recent reports aren't a smokescreen but it's conceivable to think with what's been provided that there is some truth to Farmer *hearts* Mariota.

Wow you keep switching up the topic...

Your initial assertion that a couple of us jumped on was that Cardale Jones is better than Johnny Manziel because OSU won the national championship and Manziel didn't. That's pretty much exactly what you said.

I don't care what level of defense Jones beat, he did it with the 29th ranked defense behind him... Manziel was playing with the 121st ranked defense behind him.... Therefore, Manziel had to do more, score more, to win games than Jones did.

And by your definition, Jones is also better than Luck, he never won a national championship either.

I'd say that the Eagles are the most educated team regarding Mariota. Chip Kelly knows the boy pretty well.

My first thought was one word...true.

but then our insight is his transition to NFL Techniques - how easy was it for him to convert/change things of that nature. So I'm right back at our knowledge on him in regards to Transition to the NFL game.

Now to the Eagle game - without a doubt Kelly knows considering its the same system and there really isn't much transition except for the speed of the game and smaller windows, usual stuff.

But for the rest of the NFL we actually would know better than Kelly...so actually its a little of both being correct.

31 teams us, 1 team Eagles - Chip.

jmho

Ok,, But I still think his former coach would know things that few could possibly know.

Without a doubt there is excellent familiarities with him. Keep also in mind Mariota Socially is pretty squeaky clean. But I get what you're saying and I agree to a point.

"Hard to call what kind of person and owner he is"
======================================================

The one thing that I will say about Haslam:

In regards to Pilot J. There is no way on God's green earth that Haslam was not aware of what was going on.

In a company like that no minor executive takes it upon himself to commit fraud. Nobody implements a plan like what was in place without Haslam knowing about it. There is just no way he was not aware of it and did not approve of it.

The reason he skated was because of the layers of insulation he had in place along with his legal team.

It may have nothing to do with the Browns but it still paints a clear picture of Haslam.

I forget the size of Pilot/Flying J but I seem to remember it's something in the area of 28 Billion in annual sales.

That's NOT a small company and believe me, there is EVERY possibility that he wasn't totally aware. For almost all of the year prior, he'd been consumed with the Browns.

Those executives involved were far from MINOR execs. So they did have the authority to make certain policies and make others stick to them.

Having said that, I agree that Haslam probably knew and he pretty much has skated.

From a Browns perspective, that's actually a good thing.. Can you imagine the mess if he'd have gone to jail or been required by the league to step down and had his father take over. The Dad is 80 something years old, what if he were to die?

Further confusion. So while I don't like the idea of a guy that I think did something illegal owning the Browns, it's actually the better of the known alternatives. And please don't say he should sell the team, Billions that want an NFL team don't grow on trees.

Besides, do you think that Jerry Jones is squeeky clean? How about Robert Kraft?

I know a lot about the owner of the Ravens. He's in the same business I'm in and in our industry, he's not at all well thought of at all. In fact he's know as a scuzball.

So what's the difference between Haslam and those guys?

Haslam got caught, Sort of!

Probably but keep in mind, Kelly recruited him, had him for one year, then Kelly left for the Iggles. Then Mariota played for 2 more years under somebody else.

So Kelly didn't have first hand knowledge of his progression from freshman to junior to see his evolution, his growth and development, etc.

So yea, he knows him better than any other pro coach, but it's not like he coached him for 3 or 4 years.

We are arguing over nothing of real importance, but what other Pro Coach coached him for more than 1 year? See what I mean.

1 year may not be 2 or 3 years, but it's 1 year more than anyone else in the pros

All of which I agreed with.

Well lets look at it in another perspective.

1. In a large corporation the way to move up the ladder is to show direct responsibility of PROFITS GAINED...I see most decisions being made strictly upon PROFIT.

2. The IRS has become an arm of the People in power in Washington, Haslams are big contributors to the other direction. Keep in mind I'm ignorant of the actual details of the case. I really don't care until there is a final result.

3. Why would a Family member at the very top condone or orchestrate such a policy that would have to go by many layers of the onion so that it wouldn't be a secret. These guys have Lawyers, Accountants at every turn to make sure anything that come from THEM will pass the litmus test.

4. I think too many think they are from Harlan County - "JUSTIFIED"

5. I know he was with the company but he was an owner of the Steelers and around there often. Also the acquisition of the Browns couldn't have happened overnight - I'm sure there was a transition period giving up responsibilities.

6. If it all originated from the top. Why hire a new guy who was going to be able to spot things handled wrong if indeed it was orchestrated on a high level of the organization?

Just some food for thought.

Also keep in mind if things turn out bad - ownership I beieve falls back into Randy's hands.

jmho

j/c...

This article probably fits here with the ongoing discussion on Mariota.


Complaints begin about Browns brazenly exploiting loophole

Posted by Mike Florio on February 11, 2015, 9:00 AM EST

If the Browns showed the same kind of reckless abandon on the field that their front office displays away from it, the team might actually become a contender.

At a time when the franchise is bracing for potentially significant penalties for violating the rules regarding in-game electronic communications, the Browns have jammed their way through a loophole that allows their technically-not-hired-yet quarterbacks coach to work with one of the top quarterback prospects in the draft — at a time when none of the other teams can even talk to him.

As noted earlier by Gantt, future Browns quarterbacks coach Kevin O’Connell currently is working with quarterback Marcus Mariota. Since the Browns haven’t officially hired O’Connell yet, the eventual employee can do things that he couldn’t do if he weren’t currently an employee.

“So let me get this straight,” a high-level executive with another team told PFT on Wednesday morning. “The Browns can have their quarterbacks coach in waiting work with a player, teach him the entire offense, etc., but we can’t even talk to any potential draft pick until the Combine per league rules? Something is wrong here.”

While the Browns have yet to publicly acknowledge that O’Connell will be getting the job, it has been widely reported that O’Connell will be getting the job. NFL Media, partially owned by the Browns, has reported that the Browns will hire O’Connell — and the Browns have never refuted it.

Even if the league looks the other way on this one, the know-it-when-you-see-it decision of the Browns to brazenly flaunt the rules won’t do much to encourage lenience when the time comes to drop the hammer over the brazen flaunting of the rules that resulted in G.M. Ray Farmer, either acting alone or at the behest of those above him (bet the over), to send text messages to the coaching staff during games.

Article

Interesting article to say the least. I can understand the Browns trying to get an inside track. I can also understand how the other 31 teams would see this as shady dealings.

I am okay being shady if it means we finally get a QB.

Rumor has it that the balls Mariota is practicing with only have 11 psi of air in them.. the Patriots are going to draft him.

Wrong. The balls are at 14.5 psi - he's going to Green Bay to sit behind Rogers for 3 years to learn.

Do you have three independent sources that suggest this?

i don't need links, i trust my eyes.

So in the end you agree with what I said.

EO, He was minority owner with the Steelers. Bought into them in 2008 and sold out 2012.

He had zero involvement with the Steelers operation.

He is second generation ownership of Pilot J. Son of the man that built the company and brother of the governor.

Sorry but it is naive to actually believe he was in the dark.

I spent 30 years in big telecommunications companies.

What went down at Pilot J had his stamp of approval.
Haslam also knew in advance that he could not swing.

You want to believe other wise. Your prerogative.

That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that Johnny Manziel couldn't get the job done. He supposedly knew what he was doing, winning a Heisman trophy along the way. Lots of QBs have won the Heisman trophy and weren't good NFL QBs.

Cardale has the size, intelligence and work ethic. I dare say that he's more intelligent and has a better work ethic than Manziel and that he'll be a starting QB in the NFL. That's more than Manziel can say.

I didn't say that. Zeke had a lot to do with it but how many folks say and agree with the belief that a QB is the most important position on the field?

I love Zeke, but isn't the topic QBs? Focus man. Focus.

I appreciate you trying to get back on topic, but none of this has anything to do with what you originally said.

You basically are saying Manziel should take all the blame for not winning a National Championship. Even though he was historically good and his defense was atrocious.

Furthermore, (though you have since backpedaled) you gave Cardale Jones all the credit for Ohio State winning the National Championship.

No one knows anything about Cardale Jones other than he played very well for three games with an outstanding supporting cast. If J.T. Barrett doesn't get hurt no one knows his name.

I stated that Cardale won a National Championship and that was more than Johnny Manziel could say. Yes. If I had a choice between Cardale Jones and Johnny Manziel, I would take Cardale Jones 100 times out of 100 for lots of reasons.



I'm not sure where you're getting these rankings. Yards are yards, but points are points. A&M's defense in 2013 was ranked 96th (of 125), giving up 32.2 ppg. However, when Manziel won his Heisman in 2012, the team had the 26th ranked defense (of 125), giving up just 21.8 ppg. There's also that other guy, a huge WR that bailed Manziel out and covered his flaws. His game doesn't translate to the NFL.



I didn't say that, but thanks for trying that ridiculous statement. If Luck were to get injured, Indy would be so screwed. If Manziel were to get injured, nobody would even notice.

When Braxton Miller got injured, many thought that was the Buckeyes year. J.T. Barrett stepped up and people forgot who Braxton Miller was. Then when J.T. Barrett got injured, people were saying (on this very message board) that their season was over. I might have been one of the few (maybe the only one) that wasn't concerned. I even wrote about it. Cardale Jones made people forget about J.T. Barrett.

This might be the most telling thing of all. No matter who the QB was, Ohio State was good.

That's what you're taking from it but it isn't what I said.

What I'm saying is that I would rather have Cardale Jones over Johnny Manziel. In three games, Cardale Jones showed me more than Manziel ever has.



No I didn't. What I indicated was that Jones faced three quality defenses and led the Buckeyes to wins culminating in a National Championship. You're reading WAY more into what I wrote than what I actually did.

That is a bigger accomplishment than anything Johnny Manziel did in college, including his Heisman trophy (which has about the same worth as a Nobel Peace Prize).



Okay, fine. Johnny Manziel didn't have an outstanding supporting cast? Luke Joekel, Mike Evans, Christine Michael, Damontre Moore, Jake Matthews. Several more can be added if you're talking about just college players.

It's okay though, you go on believing that Johnny Manziel is all that and a bag of chips.

In college? Yes.

NFL? No comment.

I don't deny that, but even of the Ohio State QBs, Cardale Jones will probably be the best of them as an NFL QB. T.J. Barrett has opportunities, but he runs too much although he could be effective like Russell Wilson has been in Seattle.

If you're building for the AFC North, Cardale Jones would be a better fit. Huge stature, QB smarts, cannon for an arm and he can truck over NTs when he tucks it and runs.

It's to early to give up on him. Let him get well and bring someone else in to compete with him.

I know he was with the company but he was an owner of the Steelers and around there often.

That is what I said. I thought it was a known fact that he was a Minority owner and not a Roony equal. I didn't know the obvious had to be clarified.

EO, He was minority owner with the Steelers. Bought into them in 2008 and sold out 2012.
He had zero involvement with the Steelers operation.

I said he was around there often. Hanging out observing...having conversations here n there with coaches and players. I hear reference to that when he bought the Browns.

I never said he was involved in any decision making process. Why do you guys take a word/sentence and then convert it to make me look stupid and you smart. ???

I am confused on the 08-sold out 2012 remark...yeah and???

Of course he had to sell out to be able to purchase the Browns.

My inference was that his mind was on NFL football a lot. It takes a lot of HOB KNOBBING to get in good with certain parties to make a purchase of an NFL team. His business dealing with Pilot was not 24/7 during that time.

Actually when the Crap hit the fan so to speak is when he said he would not be hanging out here much cause he was going to be 24/7 with the family business and see it through the mess they were in.

I'm saying my version is just as real as your version.

Its amazing how some people think their reading between the lines are fact and others some fantasy.

Truck stops count pennies on the profit of gum.

When profits of millions roll in all key figures know when and how.

Haslam's minority position for four years exposed him to professional football and got him a box seat at Steeler games. That is about it.

When you grow up in a business that your father started and you are expected to run: You know that business from the top down. Sports are a hobby.

Jimmy Haslam knew what was going down.

In the end I don't care. It has nothing to do with the Browns now. Haslam is not unlike a lot of guys who become billionaires.

Not really trying to call you out about what you believe.

It is minor in the scheme of things.

Jimmy Haslam knew what was going down.

See I don't mind you having a different opinion than I do. But you state that not as opinion but as FACT.

When I see this as a proven fact I will be the first to say Bonefish and others were correct in THEIR OPINION.

But you expect me to say - Ok bone...my bad Halam definitely knew after all....hmmm after all.....errr after all....bonefish said so.

I don't think so. Am I right? I'm not stating anything as fact to be right. I'm stating this is not proven, possibly it could be this way. Until its proven I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I mean it doesn't change anything, either things will be proven or it won't be.

Me saying I'll wait to convict him - is not me coddling him, looking the other way, saying he was in the right. I will accept any decision by the LAW and NFL on this matter. Do I have a choice?

jmho if its ok

He bought his way out and there will never be proof.

Like I said I don't care.

Haslam needs a brain way before he needs a QB.

New nickname for Haslam? Scarecrow?

"Actually none of you will ever know what was discussed"...



Oh don't be shocked if some surprise things develop after March 10th..

In your opinion, what would those 'surprises' be?

This is not the year to give up the house for a qb. The draft class is weak and so is the fa class. I would try to sign BH,Sanchez or Mallet. We don't know about JM but as of right now it doesn't look too good. You have Shaw as a 3rd qb. Next year we may be in a better position to land a good qb in the draft.

Well in my opinion, one could be a trade..after March 10th..the other would be a trade during draft day.

Who would we be trading or who would we be getting?

I won't say at the moment because I want to see if this gains steam, and if it turns out to be legid..a lot of people will be shocked.
I don't totally buy it myself right now..that'a why I said there could be a trade.

I do believe the Browns want Marriota ..and I want to see if that gains some steam also.

but I'll drop U a hint..it's a position of need.

We're trading for Dwayne Bowe? Woot Woot!

We're gonna get Shane Lechler?!?!

Just be patient..

This is not attention seeking at all. . .

Well, it has to be QB, that and maybe WR is the only one I can see.

It's Lechler bro.

Who?

Is this code for I'm right? If so, I'm driving off a bridge on the way home from work.

No Happy Hour for me.

No..stop guessing..although they might try to upgrade numerous positions..but it's not so much who we're getting..it's who may be going if the right scenario develops.

Lechler!

Phew....in that case

Happy Hour is back on!

Yeah, I've heard all the Johnny being shopped rumors too.

OK obviously Attack Dawg is saying that Dallas is going to tag Dez Bryant and we are going to trade Johnny and Gordon for Bryant.

Obviously.

Or we are going to trade for Shane Lechler. . .

He is available..and I just found that out.So you are on track.

Attack Dawg, I am ALWAYS on track.

Have you said anything about Glennon and Mariotta?

Peach is the new purple.

Please stop. Seriously.

If you actually had real information you would post it.

Attack Dawg is the new Adam Schefter, only if Adam Schefter made up stuff and didn't actually say anything important.

Glennon ain't going anywhere. They just cut McCown. They're not going to go into the new season with the same coaches and only something called "Seth Lobato" as the only QB that has any history with the offense.

So we're trading Joe Thomas?

Didn't they hire a new offensive coordinator?

Also, Seth Lobato sounds like a made up name. Are we sure that is a real person?

Ok, I just fell down with the last rain fall, who are you talking about?

Yep. you're right. They hired Tedford as OC last month. Glennon is way too stupid to play for Tedford.

Tedford was their "old" offensive coordinator. They hired Dirk Koetter. Either way, they aren't getting rid of Glennon until they have another veteran on the roster. Going into a season with Jameis and Mr. Lobato doesn't seem like a good plan.

Oops. Domo arigato.

Well done, sir. Well done.

How would you know what I would or would not post?Thats up to me.

Oh, so you are just saying you know something, but won't say what it is. So you just want attention?

If you know something and don't want to tell it, don't say anything. You are just rumor mongering.

I'm always amazed by the superior intellect in here..maybe I should call you Khan..I mentioned something, you tried to figure out what it was, you didn't, now you're ticked..tsk ,tsk..Memphis knew about it so I didn't have to post anything..I confirmed it.

So it isn't Shane Lechler?

Why do you keep saying Shane Lechler ?
I have no idea if the Browns want him..I said before all this ,it's a player going out, not one coming in.
And Memphis said Manziel..

Can we trade our rights to Gordon?

can we trade anyone prior to start of FA?

As for Manziel - unless we sign Hoyer. I just can't see us going into a season start --- FA and Draft with only Shaw on our roster?
jmho

Without any proof, I have always felt that Attack has an inside source in Berea. When he gets something good he doesn't like to post it in fear of getting his source in trouble. Also, he doesn't like to share things before they get solid.

But if you PM him and ask nicely along with the promise not to post it, you might be able to persuade him to let you in on it.

Browns shopping Johnny is a rumor all over the radio.

Those sources get so pissed when you post stuff to message boards. I know from experience. Want to guess who my source is?

As long as we trade him to Atlanta...I'm ok...lol

Rumors...funny how they start. Guy isn't around to deny anything. Browns don't mind the rumor cause its draft time let teams wonder what we are going to do.

jmho

If I ran the Browns, I would leak false information within the organization to different people to see what gets out. Then trace it back and plug the leak.

Even if that was the case, no one is finding it on here. And there is so much other reckless speculation that you could never assume the information came from a leak.

I call BS.

I once had a "source' for a lack of a better word when the Peyton Hillis stuff broke out. 3-4 weeks before it all happened I mentioned poop was about to hit the fan and explained all the stories that eventually came to light. No one believed me and my comments were deleted-- and that was fine.

So if Attack Dawg has real sources, good for him; just PM me what you know!! . I guess I just assumed it was OBR insiders or something.

I guess now that Peyton Hillis and Holmgren's exec team are gone, I can reveal my source. It's not like I'm friends with him or anything or have a career in journalism.

It was Gil Haskell and it was a one-time conversation.

Ok, So no one answered me. SL is a punter from Houston. Why would we want a punter who is 38 yrs. old? I think our punter is fine. We have a lot more needs than a punter. Same with RT. MS is good enough for now.

I think the whole S. Lechler thing was in jest.

We have some time.. Unless I'm reading the NFL important dates wrong, trading begins March 10th

I don't think they'll do anything with Gordon till it's time , one year from now.. They could wait till the draft but right now ,they don't have to do anything.

Watch right after March 10th(FA) and we'll see if something happens with Manziel.

If so..hint..possibly it might be for a NFCS team.

There are rumors of Mike Glennon floating around.

Oh my gosh if we ditch Manziel to acquire Glennon I just... Oh my goodness. What a freaking disaster that would be.

Haslam loves Johnny, he isnt going anywhere until he gets a chance to be the guy that we drafted him to be. Now could we trade for Glennon and bring him in to compete with Johnny? I could see that happening but Johnny has no value right now to anyone other than Haslam and Farmer.

I'm not so sure about that.

I'm not saying Glennon is the answer but I believe he would be an upgrade over anything we had this past season.

I am not a fan of Glennon, either.

Not saying JM is the guy, but I hop[e we don't commit to Glennon.

Sheesh........

All I know is Glennon is better than Weeden.

I was one of the few who in his draft Class had Glennon as the best prospect.

No I would not want us to give up on Manziel. I wouldn't mind Glennon here with Manziel.

jmho

Whatever perceived "success" Glennon may have had in Tampa, he had 4 top-50 picks at the skill positions and three guys 6'5"+. How many guys that meet that criteria are we going to have next year? And how many times are we going to play TB, ATL, and CAR secondaries?

Give me a break with this Mike Glennon nonsense. He got benched for Josh McCown twice. His own teammates gave up on him (I watched several TB games before ours and it was the worst "what the heck was that" body language I've seen in an NFL.

One other thing that might shed some more light on it..MANZIEL'S people have been pushing to get him out of Cleveland for a time now.

Wow Glennon is better than Weeden now there is a revaluation.

Glennon and Manziel and our QB troubles are gone! I'm getting excited already!!

Did they require a visit to the ER after you had finished your "questioning"?

Best of a class that includes E.J. Manuel, Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Ryan Nassib, etc. is the equivalent of being the tallest midget.

So here's the story. This happened about a year ago, and I had to do the same thing to clear this up. I do think Attack is seeking attention by not just saying how he is obtaining the information.

I am surprised that this is the only Browns board that many on here visit. There are some of us that visit multiple boards, myself included. The main other one is the OBR. There are literally 100s times more registered users over there than here. And there is way more information on that board than this one. It's not as organized and you have to sift through it more but it is a way better and faster source of news than here.

There are two ways to get "inside" information over there. One is to subscribe to their insider service. I sometimes say in a post "I read..." without a link because I want to share something I read on the insider, paid section of that site. I encourage all die hard fans to pony up the $10/month and subscribe. I find the information to be really good and insightful. And I want to give those guys a plug.

The other way to get information is from posters who claim they have inside information by knowing someone on the team. Some of these posters have good track records so people listen when they say something. The post made by Attack implying something will happen with Manziel by March 10th was made by a poster on the OBR. I believe he has made claims in the past before any media that have come true.

I don't know why he doesn't just say that.

Yep thats what I said...

Yeah I saw that but I also saw something else which lends some credibility to it.
I pm'd Memphis and told him where I saw it.

Two times I posted something like "I read" or "from another board" and when I came back in my posts were blank..no explanation of why, just deleted by a Ref.

Once before that a message was sent to me that I shouldn't post information from outside boards.

So when people PM me I tell them where I got the information, and I have had others actually PM'd me on other boards with information so all of it is not totally something I saw.

I don't have a desire to be petty like you're implying just to seek attention.

Funny thing Attack. You've been on this board since Jesus was a Corporal and you've given information many times that's turned out to be pretty good for the most part. As such, I never have questioned your motives.

Those that don't know that are seemingly being pretty petty on this thread and I know you really could care less. It appears to me some feel their input carries far more influence than it actually does,

I think I'll just wait for March 10th. If nothing happens, I'll ask you about it.

It doesn't bother me , what bothered me more were my deleted posts and that's why I have been overly cautious in how I word things.

Pit, my take on you...someone I have never met in real life, but we have PM'ed before about personal matters...is that you are a guy of good moral integrity and standards. So why would you come to the defense of someone who wouldn't just come out and say where they got the information from instead of acting like they know someone who knows someone? What's wrong with just being honest?

There could have been two positives with just being honest: a) let others know there is another board out there with information they might enjoy and b) give a plug to the OBR that might create more subscribers for that site. Instead it comes across as some mask of secrecy.

Apparently U don't want to accept my reply or my PM to you..because U keep commenting instead of replying to me personally since you take exception to it.

Actually in the rules of this board you can't talk about other boards or promote other sites.

And I'm not saying this has anything to do with Attacks points, but I do know people who currently, or in the past posted on this board who have or have had connections with players and inside the organization who couldn't reveal their sources yet wanted to share some of the things they knew and learned with posters on this board.

My point was a basic one. A lot of times Attack has provided some very good information. As such, I don't question where that information comes from. I prefer not to question his character because over the years and years of posting, I've found him to be very credible.

I don't see how questions of character on a message board do anything to further a football discussion.

I know all of this. If you just follow certain people on Twitter you know where he is getting his information.

For example, Lane Adkins (he is really bad at Twitter).

You and Rish are really remind me of this person who tries too hard to figure out if there's a ulterior motive..

I don't know who that person is. Does she pretend she has real information, announce it, then not say what it is so that people will then ask what it is?

I'm sure U can figure out who she is..and I won't tell you a thing.

Hey guys, I heard something about our team that may or may not happen. It involves a player on the team. I can't say what it is though, but you guys can guess!

Have you ever been described as stubborn?

Would you give it a rest. Sheesh!

He explained his reasoning. It makes sense, but you continue to make fun of him.

Let it go!

Don't sweat it Vers..I'll become the new Bill Cosby of the Dawgtalker forum...I get posters drunk with info teases from outside sites...then I pinch them!

Well you can always educate me with information that you have read or discussed elsewhere. If the board deems information as a detriment - please pm me with the info.

We are big boys we can determine if its plausible or if its just talk. Sooner or later we would know for sure.

btw where has ddubbia been?

Attack if you get good info you cant post of the forum then please feel free to pm it to me anytime. I have seems some great posts by you =)

On rare occasion. I prefer the term "strong willed individual" though. While it means pretty much the same thing, it has a much better ring to it.

No, I've just posted on Dawgtalkers since it was the official message board of the Browns back in 1999 and happen to know for a fact that Attack has been giving some very valuable information for years. As such, I have learned from experience not to question his motives. That experience is far more valuable to me than anything those who may not know this has to say.

If you heard it from your inside the lockerroom source, you are the new Coach B.

Whatever Pit. This situation is about as black and white as you can get.

But you go ahead and make sure to stand up for the old guard.

See, this is the problem with debate with "stubborn" or "strong willed" people. No matter what, they will see whatever side they commit themselves to early in the process. You're really no different than Vers. As I said before, you're just more polite about it.

Have fun with that.

It's about a long pattern of accountability in what one has posted over the years. It has nothing to do with old guard. There is something to be said for accountability over time. If that is something you don't understand, more power to you.

I explained it's against the rules to promote other boards and other sites. I explained that Attack has a record of posting some very good info.

If you expect me to join into some character assassination campaign, I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't use much inflammatory language towards other posters, but there will come a point that I can play that game too. You haven't quite reached that level yet but I can see how you're attempting to.

You certainly fit the example of one who chooses a side and then is unflinching.

The old guard? Pfffttt....you can't see how hypocritical that is?

And I am tired of you slamming me all the time when I haven't even addressed you.

You are trying to make Pit change his tone by comparing him w/me in a negative way.

How freaking loathsome is that? Guys like you, PDR, cfrs, Dj, and Memphis run around here telling people what to think, who to like, who to not like, etc. eotab asked where is ddub? He isn't posting because of posters like you guys.

You know........the old guard had heated arguments on here all the time. Hell, Pit and I argued all the time. But, we never acted like you guys do. We certainly did whine about which side to choose in an argument and make it an us against them mentality.

Argue each case on its merits and stop w/your bullying techniques.

A threat? Really? On a Browns message board?

I don't even know what to say anymore.

I will say this. Maybe one day the Browns will be good. And maybe one day we will get to meet. And I'll buy you a beer. And Vers too.

Take care guys. Go Browns!

I'm not about to stop posting info when I can.
I think ddubbia is on the OBR board also.

I

Tacker..

All this talk about an "old guard" is beginning to make me feel old.


...I mean, more mature !

More Mature,, Much better

Can I get a list of who is "old guard" and who isn't. Some of those calling out the "old guard" are posters that I would consider "old guard". It's so confusing.

What I think it comes down to is your track record. If you say something that sounds a little wacky but in the past your wacky statements turn out to be true 80% of the time then you get some leeway. If you say something wacky in one of your 1st 100 posts then it is hard to take you seriously. True or not, without that track record you don't get the benefit of the doubt.

Well I played OG and LB in HS so I guess I'm an Old Guard...lol

jester...I'm a little late to this "old guard" discusion...I have a question...why would someone be bothered if some of us have been on this board longer than others?

No one is excluded from jumping in on a discussion or subject.




jest...you talking to me?...From time to time, I might resemble that remark..lol.

I played "outside" Guard in 8th grade ( ran an unbalanced line)... 1970 in New Springfield so I guess i qualify too.

Well since I'm "Off the deep end" and so much like Vers, I thought you would expect that from me? At least that's the way you describe things to try to get a rise out of people.

The odd thing is, more often than not Vers and I don't agree. And even though we've went after each other pretty heavy on this bard we met and got along fine.

It's a lot easier to claim people are "off the deep end" and try to get a rise out of them on a message board than it is in person. So I'd say we would get along just fine.

I gave up football before middle school but I did play point guard on the HS basketball team.. is that enough?

I know Vers...and you are no Vers! lol - Benson to Dan Quail...

Oh it's not me you have to convince! I think those of us who have been here for a long time simply know each other pretty well. It's not about "the old guard" as it is a familiarity with each other over a long course of time.

I mean I don't see things as rosy as you do and you don't see things as bad as I do. We understand that will be the case for the most part. We also expect that for the most part. It brings a sense of balance and different perspectives to the board. Not that one is better than the other or a strict right or wrong in certain cases.

And while we often disagree, I do like the diversity of opinions. So no, my style of posting and that of Vers are quite different, but I enjoy having Vers here too. I think we all add something of value to the board.

Even Rish.

I was too big for guard in an old wing T offense. Guess I'll just fade quietly into the corner with all the other tackles.

wing T... damn you are old...


jk ya know.

I ran the Wing T. We confused opponents on a weekly basis w/it. We even used a ZBS while running it. Some of our backs would run right by would-be tacklers because they were so confused on all the counters, traps, reverses, double hand-offs, etc.

And yeah, I am old.

Btw-----------what was this thread about? Oh yeah, we need to get a QB? How many years have we been saying that, y'all?

Mike Mayok is saying this is a very weak Qb class... so yeah, awesome. Sorry but I'd say I have more faith in Connor Shaw than Manziel and I don't know if Hoyer will be back.

I just hope we can pick someone who isn't going to be an off field issue and can do what is asked of him in hopefully what is a run first offense. That includes making the right reads,knowing the play book and can hit an open target long or short

Spot on.

I'm here nearly everyday. I just don't bother posting because there are a small crowd of posters who seem to wedge in making every thread about themselves in one way or another.

And then there are the personal attacks. It gets very annoying to see thread topics ruined as they're taken over by that crap.

The sad part of it is some of them don't even realize they do it because to them, that's part of what debating is. Then there's others who do know they do it because that's what they think debating is. Either way, it boils down to if one has nothing else to offer then one resorts to personal attacks in an effort to make ones self feel superior to those of whom one can't debate using logic and facts.

It's also a sure sign that one who does resort to personal attacks is showing that they feel like they're losing the debate so they reach into their bag of tricks pulling out an insult hoping to distract the topic, which is usually what happens as the one being attacked jumps away from the topic to defend himself. Then that becomes the new topic, as it has done here.

It's childish, playground crap and it both disrupts and waters down each and every otherwise good football discussion.

There's probably less than a dozen posters I chose to read anymore as I scroll past the nonsense.

That's pretty sad because you are truly one of the best posters who has ever graced this board. You and Clem have a lot in common.

You might not be pure football guys, but you both love to learn and have an intelligence and way w/words that make you a viable commodity to the board. I love how eloquent you both are.

I apologize for my part in all of this. I know that I am guilty of some of what you said. Believe me, bro.........you are more valuable to this board than I am!

I see a QB selection as one of the first three, unless a big FA/Trade move is made. The only QB's that would change my opinion would be Foles, Bradford and maybe Sanchez.

Need will trump supply at the QB position.

I coached for several years at the local HS.We ran the spread as our base,but the oline play was straight out of the wingT playbook.
We could line up 3-4 wide,then shift into a wingT or power I set and run the ball.Or stay spread and run Q counter,devasting play.
In my mind the wingT is the father of all modern O's,especially zone.I wish I had a dollar for every time I yelled "you don't block a man,you block a coarse."
I could talk for hours on this, but I doubt if anyone is interested,there's no agenda.

But that's the good stuff!

I'm too young to remember the Wing T. hahaha No I'm not. I'm older than dirt. But those things escaped me back then. (Just like a lot of X's and O's do now.)

I was always a "follow the ball" type of observer. I never realized it until Diam mentioned that trait some years ago and I thought, "That's what I do".

Since then I focus on the trenches until the play is well underway. I enjoy it more this way as I can better see the plays develop.

I know this is only what it is ,/... but I have coached youth football for 11 years now, the offense they run ( I am soley DC) is a double wing and they use a GOD blocking technique

G - Inside Gap ( 1st)
O - Over or ON - man in front (2nd)
D - Down - man to your inside has a man Over (3rd)

I haven't spoken to you in a long time.

Funny part is I'm only 24.

ooops

Im just saying my head coach was old as dirt. Wing T still wins around here. 1 losing season in 30+ years.

I would love to pick your brain.

I've been an OL coach for so long now I have to go back to being an expert on everything I got to learn a lot. HS, Pee Wee college - I don't care football is football. Its about Angles, Its about footwork, Its about discipline. And basic basic its about conditioning and Speed. You can build off those same ingredients regardless of the level. Cause Football is Football!

jmho

Sure you have. I read all your posts. I just haven't spoken back.

Good post. The Wing T is so effective for two reasons.

1. There is a lot of deception.

2. The use of ZBS.

It used to crack me up when people would make fun of running such a "prehistoric offense," when in actuality, the offense is very complex and innovative. I am not saying that it would work in the pros, because it would not, but the blocking schemes are still used by many ZBS's today.

And you might be surprised, bro. Make a thread about it. I bet you get a lot of the "old guard" chiming in. There are quite a few of us who like to learn and teach.

You must remember how we used to have discussions like that once in awhile. I remember making a thread about the ZBS several years back. Many posters contributed their knowledge, even if they had to research articles to do it. That was great! Others asked really good questions. It was one of the best threads ever because of how there wasn't any BS agenda crap and people were just interested in learning new things and sharing what they did know.

Give it a shot, bro. We'll help you out.

I am not sure what kind of blocking my old high school used. coach didn't bother explaining things to the meat. I am pretty sure is was a type of zone blocking though because we just attacked whatever shoulder of the rusher that was closest to the QB to force them to the outside and around. We never used a FB but our HBs had to block for each other at times when we used a split HB formation.

That's it Tex.There's a beauty in it's simplicity.
Teaching oline play to young kids would have to be very difficult,but those "rules" should make it easier.
Don't mean to be a dick but,those rules are for FSG on a dive;
Gap
Post, man over setup for double team
Drive,double down on a nose,center will post.
If I may,"Down" took on a entirely different meaning with us.
Technically,to execute a proper down block the first step is with the inside foot at a 45 degree angle.That sets the coarse.
The shouts of down,down,down meant we going smashmouth,specifically power,where the frontside G,T and TE rules are,down,down,down.The linemen loved it.
We would continue running power,power,trap until the other team stopped it,or it was time for us to work on our spread plays.

Not being a dick at all.

I appreciate the reponse.

Yeah it is hard to teach youth kids line play... the hardest is the first read... especially if they have a man in front... the natural tendency is to take him not a guy in the inside gap.

Course being a D guy this technigue is easy to beat by moving the Dline in or out and stacking the LB's to overload a part of the line... and then slant ruch... that really confuses them on who to block.