I made the list once but don't feel like doing it again.

List all the 1st round picks the Browns have made since 2008.

Not. A. Single. Impact. Player.

Bad drafting = bad team. Drafting guys like Weeden and Manziel set this team back. Should have drafted guys in the skill position around Hoyer then look at the QB position. Now we have a young QB with minimal talent around him to help him out.

there's not much good to talk about. Kizer didn't turn it over I guess. We played okay in the first half.

But, we have no talent. no playmakers. no hope.

We're wallowing in crap

Just flipped to Sunday NFL Countdown and they are ripping the Browns. FO getting clowned. Kizer getting clowned for calling the players only meeting. Good grief.

Watch people say Garrett is an impact player.

In order to be an impact player, you have to be on the field.

We once again have a bunch of trash players, trash coaching, trash FO.

This was a game we could’ve won, but again, our secondary couldn’t cover my grandma running slant routes.

We had something like 3 dropped pssses today.

Crow fumbled.

O line couldn’t block once again.

Muffed punt.

Just a massive failure from the top down. Everybody needs to be canned after the season.

There was a lot of good today ... LOTS ...

Quit feeling sorry for yourselves ..

Bunch of quitters ...

Even more egregious are the number of first round picks since that time that are no longer even on the team or are completely out of the NFL already.

A better effort all around. But until the offense can start putting drives together, scoring, the defense will remain on the field and eventually giving up points. The 'O' played a bit better today, but simply not good enough to beat a top team...

The guys on NFL Network were actually being nice but it felt forced. That's worse than straight up clowning. That's pity.

Yeah that keeps working for us.

Defense did ok but was on the field too long. We need secondary help.

Kizer isn’t ready.

All in all another depressing afternoon to be a Browns fan.

I liked Hue's play calling today. Looked like he was trying to give Kizer the best chance for success. I know I will get flamed for this, but it's what I think.

Only one good I saw was Kizer not turning the ball over and Drango.

And even more egregious is there were multiple years where the team had multiple first round picks.

The team blows. There are no redeeming qualities with this team.

Hell, the Browns own head coach is helping the other team score before the half.

1 win since December 13th, 2015.

There was some good. Our defence communities to show improvement, even without McCourty and garrett. just ran out of gas in second half, but at least we can stop the run most of the time.

I don't think our WRs are good at getting separation, I think our corners need upgrading... Nassib isn't a consistent pas rusher.
Kizer at least did not throw an INT, but he's gotta stop throwing them at the knees of our receivers.

Gonzales might be out of a job soon, the goof.

Drango played decently at tackle.

We’re not a million miles away on defense.

Hooker. Man, I must hate myself it’s gone. Hooker makes this D balanced.

Starting over should not be an option. The whole team is going through growing pains from the owner down. If we keep tearing it down nothing will ever get accomplished. That being said GW blitzes waaaaayyyy too much and it hurts the pass coverage. He needs better corners if he thinks he can be successful with that style. This game was only winnable depending on the offense having long drives and when has that ever happened? Once a game is not enough. Still a young team that looks like it is too young to finish games.

Feel bad for the fans most of all.

Thoughts....

- Kizer played a whole game and did not throw a pick. He was asked to do very little, however.

- Defense gave another good effort until it became too much.

- Kudos to Drango

- Clock management at the end of the first half. Yikes. It'd be more concerning if we were actually a competitive team.

- Zane Gonzalez is not good.

- Turnovers continue to be a problem.

- The number of penalties are inexcusable.

- Nice kick return by Dayes

- At least Britt was benched today.

- The blitzing is rather ineffective.

- Teams show up and do as little as possible and allow the Browns to eventually beat themselves.

- This is one horrible professional product.

No doubt. I'm looking forward to hoisting yet another moral victory trophy after this season!

We've been hopeful since 1999. Can you really fault someone for not feeling that "this time it's different"? It's like believing that "this time, there really will be candy", and then getting into the van and suffering the consequences. Every frickin' year.

For the ones who stay home and don't spend a dime on this garbage yes. For those who continue to go to the games and buy gear, no. There is NO way I'm doing so and I'm happy I don't. I feel NO sorrow for those that do. I want to see as few people at home games as possible. If at all possible, only the other team's fans should show up. That would be awesome. Haslam sucks and the message needs to be sent. Your NFL product is garbage Jimmy. And you are completely clueless.

Yeah I even stopped wearing any Browns gear at all. No support for a team not giving their all on putting together a successful franchise. Still don’t believe it should be blown up tho.

I would agree. But it wasn't with Kizer and Crowell, IMO. Duke Johnson is such a better overall RB.

Drango had a nice game!

We need a continued influx of talent, a lot more maturity and experience, and we desperately need to cease the blunders and penalties, but this was one of those games where you catch glimpses of what it might become. A few more playmakers and four quarters of legitimate consistency will go a long way. Gotta keep getting better. The injuries don't help. Hue hasn't lost the team. He did blow two TO calls. Execution is a problem. Getting open, getting into position, hanging onto the ball. There was success in the middle of the field. The D giving up the long drives, struggling against the run in the second half. Is that lack of talent (LB/DB) or fatigue? And I don't know if Kizer's the guy or not, but I can see what the guy and a few more playmakers could do. Gotta take the good with the bad. With the number one pick the Cleveland Browns select...

Well you shouldn't get "flamed". It was quite effective in negating their pass rush and gave our Oline a big assist. I thought our blocking was not the reason for our loss...

Josh Gordon would help this football team right now

Oh my! You are a....beast.

So would Flash Gordon. I'm with you. Josh takes the lid off but I don't think the problem is wholly our receivers.

This roster is so void of difference makers and elite talent
All the homers say yeah the future is bright
But they've been saying that since 2001.
Another double digits loss.
Who can find positives in that
Genius williams has been beat by 2 qbs who have played for a combined 10 teams

You think that loss was on Williams?

Our kicker sucks. Not that it would have made a difference in the end. But, we now have to second guess kicking the 3 or just going for it. The chances are becoming fairly even on both.

How many points did the Browns allow today ?
Is this defense looked any better than Hortons ?

Yes it does. If you can't see that, then I respectfully disagree. We have holes but we have improved on the D side. We need some secondary help. Our run defense is outstanding. And teams are running on us.

WHO GIVES A RIP!!

Who gives a hoot!
Who gives a something!
Who gives a care
Who gives a 25th straight loss on Sunday, now surpassing the '78-'79 Buccaneers, as the bottom line on NFL network read last night.

Hue Jackson should be a politician.

Because he delivers no results...

AND EVERYBDOY LOVES HIM!

I don't understand anybody, who thinks this course is going to be better in 2018,

You can lose 16 in 2018, after you lose out the remaining 8 this year!

That way of thinking if flawed. This team hasn't won no matter who they drafted in 22 years.

Maybe it's not the draft players, maybe it's what the team does with who they have on the team, after they get here

Which players got real better after they joined the Browns.

This team couldn't win with anybody on the roster, they find a way to mis use anyone they have, and do they coach development, or game situation development?

ok, ok, There are a lot of things going right,

A LOT of things are going right; but none of that equals wins.

If the Answer is in Drafting the "right guy" next year;
then the Browns have had 22 years of trying that;
AND LOOK AT THE RESULTS!

Good teams that make the playoffs, year in and year out,
YOU DON'T EVER HEAR THEM TALKING ABOUT NEXT YEARS DRAFT,

The Browns win the Super Bowl in April; every year

And they are LAST IN THE DIVISION, EVERY YEAR, IN THE FALL!

Can't be worse than winless!

I thought Kizer played a solid game... Couple poor throws but also had a few drops and several game changing penalties that were missed.... The turn overs killed us and then late penalties on defense really hurt....

Defense was on field way too long,. Need to get off the field on third down... Several times we just barely missed a tackle that could have gotten us off the field on third... Still no idea why we play ten men on defense with our safety 20 yards off,,,

Special teams overall was poor... Had the one good return... But really poor overall in my opinion...

Overall I thought we played pretty well until late in the third... Lots of opportunities that you have to take advantage of... Minn is a solid team.. Hopefully the bye will do us good... Still need some play markers at wide receiver... Can't develop a QB if there's no one to catch the ball

I'm sorry but they showed time of possession at some point in the first half and it was like 16 minutes Minny, 5 us.

The offense has to stay on the field. Sure the defense can be better - maybe lots better in certain scenarios.

I may be dying on my shield here but the defense is not the reason we are in the position we are. That is the lone bright spot in this ethereal darkness of being a Browns' fan.

Two fumbles in first half led to a lot of the time of possession... But I agree that we need to keep offense on field longer...

Wow San Fran is bad... Pick six...

Browns are 29th in points allowed
And it's not like are facing John Brodie Ken Anderson
Or even Warren Moon every week
It's McCown Brisett Dalton Keenum
Teams don't have to run the ball every time if you can throw it on them

Sorry didn't mean to come across so snarky.

I don't know what they should do.

You can give them three more years to develop and if they're not good football player and coaches etc. they're not going to develop.

Putting in a year or two doesn't guarantee improvement.

I don't know if this group will or won't.

At the end of the day I think I need to see next year.

No worries... I saw the stat too and totally agree that the offense didn't do the defense any favors.. But I think those early fumbles really hurt...

Too many mistakes to over come for this team...

I thought ST play was pretty mediocre today. Didn't like this one any more than the others.

It is so not like me to play favorites like that. Thanks to the FO for making this campaign possible. We come back healthy for the most part.

Anybody who got flagged today walks home.

jc -

Random thought...

Typically when teams have a very poor unit, you'll have at least one guy on that unit step up. Kind of a best of the worst type of thing. When I think about our WRs you don't even have that. It looked like Treggs was going to be that guy, but does anyone on this team even want to be good. They are so bad it almost defies belief.

I think the culture is really bad in Cleveland. You have the FO giving up before the season even starts to save money. You have the owner saying 2017 doesn't matter. Your coach calls timeouts that give the opposition an opportunity to score. These actions all send a message. Winning is not important.

I guess it shouldn't be any surprise the Browns are where they are.

We have a young guy playing QB. I wouldn't call Flattop a QB.

What's with "flat top"? Who is "flat top"

I saw a defense that played well until they were gassed... T.O.P. 38-22

I saw pretty solid play-calling by Hue and a rookie QB put in a position to excel.

I saw Crow hit a few holes.

I saw Duke... but not nearly enough of him. Our only real "play maker" doesn't never gets enough touches.

I saw 2 catches as the highest by any WR

I saw a coach give away points on a team with no wins like it's his JOB.

I saw Drango make the very best of a situation that had "disaster" written all over it.

I saw the clock hit zeros and then the ghost of Pat Shurmur, as the first thing I thought is "we battled".

I "see" this team winning one or two of the next four, book it.

the only flattop i know of is from Dick Tracy.

I don't know about LOT'S....but we did.

The D played well in the first half. They were out there too long. We might have had possession for maybe 7 minutes in the first half.

Mike Jordon looks like a pretty decent CB.

The D line is stout and deep.

Drango actually looks pretty decent at LT. He held his own against a pretty good DE.

Drango did a very decent job. Really impressed with how he got on against the vaunted Minny rush.

.

All first round picks.

Not. One. Impact. Player.

I'm all for bashing this front office. But I think it's not fair to label the rookies as non impact players yet.

Garrett especially, I think he will be one as long as he can overcome his health issues.

Njoku has flashed some potential, but has no receivers on the outside to help him and has been a victim of poor QB play.

Peppers, well he has been very underwhelming and I always thought he was overrated at Michigan.

To be fair, I think Shelton is playing really well.

We can't run an NFL offense because our QBs are so bad. If we are down more than one score, the game is over.

The run defense was pretty good before being gassed because they were on the field a ton.

Kenny Britt, zero snaps.

I feel like if we had a better QB our WRs would only be bad, not atrocious. Bryce Treggs seems like a pretty good role player but we can't get him the ball.

BBC had a bad game for the first time all year.

Kindred is constantly in the backfield on run plays.

We got killed by another TE today.

oops i jinxed watson

Watson may turn out to be good but way too early to anoint him a saviour. I wish the young man well.

I didn't focus on Spencer Drango too much, but it seems like he was at least average.

Drango really played a nice game ! .. I still don't know why Hue doesn't use the middle of the field more ? Someone else mentioned the TE seam route which is not in our play book, I guess .. Hue panic's as soon as a run doesn't net him 4/5 yards .. I am not big on Kiser ( never was ) but Hue really doesn't help him much with his play calling .. And yes it was a try-full better today for parts of the game . There is just a lack of talent on the O when it comes to play makers ...

JC...

To be honest, we had drafted some talent most of them however we just let walk (We would be a better team if we still Mack, Benjamin, Shwartz, Haden)

We sadly let our talent leave, and can't develop our younger talent...They regress like many of our players...Heck, a lot of our FA's regress when coming to Cleveland...And like stated above a lot of our draft picks were projects, reaches, or headcases...You cant take those players and expect to win when you are a garbage team like Cleveland.

Kizer improved today, didn't force throws. Receivers still dropping passes, count the TEs in on that.

Crow had a decent game until the fumble took the wind out of their sales. Momentum dropped after that. Duke hits the hole so much faster.

We need a WR. What's up with Coates? The guy made plays for Pittsburgh, but here is a special teamer.

Keyed on Drango, he pretty much held Griffen in check. The sack he got was when Kizer was forced to hold for the long pass. IMO, he was not a force today.

Gonzales needs cut today. Missing that extra point then following that with a missed FG, should seal the deal. Has he missed more than he's made?

The defense held them until Williams went to that deep deep single safety. The game changed right there.

The score was bad, but I saw growth. I think they only had one offensive penalty. Also, the PI calls against them were pretty ticky tack.

They are going to win soon, I feel it.

I also would like to say Nassib played a good game.

Coates. Finally had a catch today. Then he did the "celebrate" thing and cost us time.

Didn't affect the outcome of the game at all, but dang, what's with these players strutting after doing nothing but their job?

Bye week coming up. Several players will get arrested , a few will get hurt in non contact drills and Kizer will still have no touch on his passes.

Glad to see some positives, and I agree, they looked better in a few areas. Get a kicker. If we score more later on, he could cost us game. The light from ST's is beaming brightly as ever. He needs gone.

Overall, first half showed promise, then some Williams choices got in the way. Leads are not safe with a hold every play secondary. Penalties? We ship them in by the dozen. Repeat offenders should shape up or ride the wild pine.

hats off to Drango who did better than I thought he would.

Not totally sure why Willians is being knocked. We had a great plan until we ran out of steam.

Those points at the end of the half were on the O. They should have never called that timeout. We had plenty of time to run a play, then call timeout.

It shouldn't take a timeout to run a QB sneak from the one yard line when you have a tall, strong QB.

This is actually the FIRST TIME I’VE THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE DIFFERENT since our return ...

This is by far the most optomistic i’ve ever been about us having a shot at turning it around ...

This is a DIFFERENT VAN ... it can’t change how the vans in the past were driven ...

Forgive me for this "non sequitor" remark, but we are now 4-39 since the Browns' so-called braintrust decided it was time for the Manziel era to begin, and for Brian Hoyer's tenure as QB to end. You remember Brian, he went 10-6 as a starting QB here, and those geniuses decided to run him. Would we be a contender if we had just let the best QB we had (Hoyer) play until we found the heir apparent? No, of course not. But we would have won a lot more than 4 FREAKING GAMES.

Sorry for the rant, but the hopelessness of watching this team that I have loved my whole life, and then coming here and reading that its gonna take a few more years is too much for me. I don't ask for playoffs - just simple competitiveness and an occasional happy Sunday. Too much to ask, apparently.

j/c:

--I hated the 9:30 start. Messed-up the timing of the entire day.

--It's a shame that Hue has to limit the play calling because we don't have a QB capable of running a full offense.

--Crow and Duke both had nice games.

--Kizer worries me because I don't see him going through his progressions. You can't be good in the NFL if you can't process information post-snap. I hope it is just nerves and being overwhelmed and not that he isn't able to do it.

--I didn't blame Hue for calling the TO at the end of the half. In fact, I was hoping he would. We have had a plethora of turnovers and failures in the red zone this year. We have a rookie qb who is struggling and an inexperienced offensive team. I thought it was wise to make sure that we calmed down and come up w/a solid play. Yes, we left them 40 seconds, but I think it was more important to get the score.

--The D really struggled against the pass and Minni does not have a good passing game. The players got tired in the second half. I don't think allowing 33 points is a good effort.

--Ogbah is becoming a very solid player. He has some long arms.

--Who is that McGill guy?

--Drango played very well. I was impressed.

--Devalve might be the worst blocking TE in the league. Pathetic.

--More dropped passes and inaccurate throws.

--For as gifted as he is, Collins doesn't make many plays.

--I get the sense that a lot of our players are dumb.

--The kicker is pretty sorry.

--I laughed at Kizer after he scored. WTH was that? LOL

--It is depressing watching this team, though. I want to believe that our young guys will improve. But man, all this losing has got to be tough on everyone involved. And I am not really sure how much talent we really have, especially at the skill positions [other than RB] on both sides of the ball.

I too thought Drango did a fair enough job.

I agree Daim something just feels different. Can't explain it just feels different.

I think you are misremembering the TO sequence at the end of the first half.

I just went back and watched it.

Browns run the ball from the one on 2nd and goal. Crowell is stopped with 43 seconds left. Cleveland has 2 timeouts. Zimmer has 3 and should have been using his but he wasn't. That was good for Cleveland. But Hue called a timeout immediately after the play ended at the 43 second mark.

He should have let the clock run until about 20 seconds, maybe a little less. You would have 2 downs, 1 timeout, and would leave the Vikings with less than 20 seconds no matter what happens on the next 2 plays.

Hue actually would have had more time to calm the guys had he gone this route. The time he let the clock run plus the timeout.

I don't see any pro argument for what Hue did. Hell, Trent Green was trying to be nice about it and he couldn't believe it either.

It was just poor no matter how you look at it.

I think it was more about the not running some time off the clock than the timeout itself.

Because he blitzes more than anyone and gets little pressure. If you're not going to get any pressure you might as well drop everyone back in coverage.

We got picked apart by Case Keenum. That is a problem.

The run defense is good.

No need to apologize, the truth needs to be spoken. I knew it was bad since Hoyer but didn't realize it was 4-39 bad...Wow that is just breath taking.

Hoyer went to the Texans after he was with us. He was benched. He then signed with the Bears where he was a backup and played well in part time duty. The Bears did not re-sign him. He then went to the 49ers where he was benched.

Win/loss record is just about the worst way to judge a QB.

This. We either run the dumbed down offense of the last two weeks (and Kizer still killed us with INTs against the Titans) or we run a real NFL offense and Kizer is completely overwhelmed.

We have to play Kizer to [hopefully] develop him, but I haven't seen him improve at all (making easy passes to running backs is not an improvement).

There’s reasons to believe we have a shot ... theres talent out there ..

I’m not sure what Noah’s customers expect top see each week when they tune in ... this isn’t going to change til we get some more talent and a qb ...

I don't disagree with that, but it still speaks volumes about the ownership and who they hire and put in place to make these decisions. We were what? 7-7 or something like that when they decided to bench him for Manziel? At least Hoyer is still in the league, while Manziel can't even get hired by the CFL.

I know you're equally frustrated with this franchise as I am, but damn that was a horrible decision.

I'm all for the TO for the purposes you listed... at 15 seconds. I'm at work watching with the guys and my immediate comment was "run it down to 15 seconds". NO excuse for not understanding the situation, I did, and I was preoccupied with doing my job.

I don't think our current WRs are good. Not even mediocre .

I forgot: on Crow's TD run Zeitler had a great block at the next level. that was a nice play

j/c:

Refocused: Minnesota Vikings 33, Cleveland Browns 16

TOP 5 GRADES:
OT Shon Coleman, 89.6 overall grade

DI T.Y. McGill, 87.2 overall grade

LB Joe Schobert, 83.2 overall grade

Edge Carl Nassib, 82.7 overall grade

DI Danny Shelton, 82.3 overall grade

PERFORMANCES OF NOTE:
QB DESHONE KIZER, 66.0 OVERALL GRADE
The Browns seemed to come into the game today with the plan to ask as little of Kizer as possible, opening the game with multiple short passes designed to allow his receivers to make plays. While that worked early on, late in the game they needed him to make plays downfield and it just didn’t happen for much of the game. He did have an impressive 38-yard completion down the left sideline against Vikings cornerback Xavier Rhodes, but that was the only completion he had on the day that travelled 10 yards or further in the air

OT SHON COLEMAN, 89.6 OVERALL GRADE
Coleman excelled in pass protection for the Browns, avoiding allowing a pressure all game and had some impressive blocks in the running game as well. His zero pressures allowed came on 40 pass blocking snaps, giving him a pass blocking efficiency rating of 100.0.

DI T.Y. MCGILL, 87.2 OVERALL GRADE
McGill proved to be a problem for Minnesota’s offensive line as he wreaked havoc throughout the afternoon, be it rushing the passer or against the run. Although McGill rushed the passer on just nine occasions, he was able to pick up three total pressures, including a hit. In addition, he was nearly unblockable in the running game seemingly all afternoon.

EDGE CARL NASSIB, 82.7 OVERALL GRADE
While Nassib picked up just one pressure – a sack – on 31 pass-rushing snaps, he also got the hands on two passes at the line of scrimmage, including one that turned into an interception in the first quarter. In addition, Nassib impressed by setting the edge against runs as he was among the Browns’ highest graded defenders against the run.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-refocused-minnesota-vikings-33-cleveland-browns-16

I think you are a top 10 poster on this site, although misunderstood some times, but this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read in a football thread.

The coach is the one guy on the field who is supposed to understand the situation. That's why he's the coach.

There's an adjective for Hue's error in judgment. Egregious.

You have to seriously wonder that if someone doesn't understand that situation right there if they should be a HC in the NFL.

j/c...

Finger pointing beginning in a veiled or not so veiled shot at the FO?.......

I don't think this whole thing will end will.

Hue Jackson after the game:

“Everything has to be perfect. I think that's where we are. You're saying it without saying it. I think everything has got to be perfect for us to have a chance to win a football game. That's just where we are as a football team. We get it, and our coaching staff gets it, and our players get it, and we work that way. We try to do the best we can to get everything right, but we all know that's not how football is played.

“You can't be perfect. It's still a game. You're going to make mistakes, and things are going to come up, but that's where we are so that's what we have to do every time we play to give ourselves the best chance to win games. Today we didn't make as many, so we were in the game for quite a while. Then all of a sudden we don't make some other plays I think we can make, and then the game flipped. That's kind of been the story of where we are.”

Every time there was hope...."Rookies" is all I could muster.


Good pass, dropped....by a rookie
Locking on to receivers by a rookie
Penalties by rookies


Being "young" is a bad thing and I am sick of people talking about it like it's a good thing. Njoku shows lots of talent he is going to be good, I don't see Kizer as a viable QB, the game is way too fast for him.

Add all of this onto an absolute trash heap of WR's, hard to blame hue for anything other than some game management mistakes.

I don't think it's veiled.

I think he's run out of things to say.

Kenny Britt being active and not playing a down was a clear message to the FO from Hue.

"You don't have to cut him, but I'm not playing him."

It's on.

Good. That POS is lucky to be on the roster.

And regarding other comments on rookies and being young: The Browns cannot stay young year after year. There is NO way to make progress if these guys don't have a clue as to what is going on at the NFL level. And at some point, the Browns need TALENT. Simply stockpiling draft picks hasn't really worked, has it?

I think it was a serious error - and just like I have said elsewhere it is concerning that there definitely seems to be somewhat of a pattern. . . . the truth is Hue has a LOT going on, it's not like he's managing a normal team or a normal situation with everything he is balancing. Diam said it the other day and I agree 100% - Hue is desperate for a win and I think he really feels every loss with mounting pressure - not because he's afraid of losing his job I think he really, really, really hates losing like this.

We played against a pretty good team - and an excellent D. I saw a lot of improvement despite the eventual collapse. I saw a lot of what others saw -- I won't repeat them. All but I don't think anyone else mentioned it this week: Secondary looks WAY better without Peppers back there. Someone stated that last week and it was the same this week. But still hate the S 20 yards deep.

I hope he hates losing. I hope they all hate losing.

The "this is really bothering Hue" narrative is lame.

If it's bothering him so much, then he should do something about it.

And leaving time on the clock for the other team to score when it was completely in his control not to do it does not give me a lot of sympathy for Hue.

I have sympathy for the fans watching this crap product.

I can live with the losses. I predicted a MAX of 3 wins before the season. I just can't stomach stupidity.

If it is, it's a stupid ass way to go about it. All Hue has to do is make him inactive and let someone else suit up. Why would Hue waste a game day spot? If that is how he is going about it, he's pretty stupid.

I bet your boss is real proud you're watching the game at work. And posting.

As soon as he switched to the single safety 25 yards deep, things changed. It stuck out like a sore thumb to me. They were doing well, then things opened up for Minni.

They played well, but that adjustment hurt them.

My employees are real proud to work with a boss that watches the games with them and still trusts them to do their jobs. I am the boss. Nice try. Besides, "posting" in the "post-game" thread doesn't necessarily mean I'm at work anyway. When in question, you could always deduce the word "was" means past tense... try and keep up.

But, that's not what you said.

So, you're the boss. Cool. I bet your employees love the fact that you post about the game.

I bet YOU?R boss doesn't.

Have another drink bro.

Ignore the old farts, they'll try to twist and turn things their way.

I sincerely hope your hunch proves correct.

Well... that certainly was... colorfully put-

Right down to the flat tire, that pic nails it!

I agree with this post.




I recorded this game because I had to work. Colleagues know to not talk football with me on Sunday gigs.

So I get home around 4PM, and my wife said she was surprised to find the recording at 12 min rec time. I told her about the pick/TD in the first qtr. that I saw while getting ready for work.

"I couldn't help it- I watched while you were gone."

"Lemme guess- they looked really good, then they looked OK, then they looked really bad to finish the game." She just sort of sheepishly smiled and said: I'll go watch Hallmark in the other room. Enjoy your game(?)"

It's both, Cal
And it's why I rarely post in the football forums any more.

When you have 2/3 of a team, that team can be competitive for only 2/3 of a game. It's why all Browns games follow the exact same pattern:

1. Game plan is solid for the personnel we have. We have some success.
2. One little thing goes wrong, and the Browns either find themselves in deficit, OR losing an early advantage. At halftime the game is close.
3. Oppo Team makes halftime adjustments/takes away the 2 or 3 things that brought us success.
4. D wears out midway through the 3rd qtr, because we're so talent-starved of O playmakers, and can't sustain drives.
5. Browns get down enough points to abandon the game plan, and ask DK to be Aaron Rogers. Oppo D tees off/wheels fall off.

There is a nucleus of 'complimentary players'- the kind of guys who make up the body of a team, but we have no difference-makers, and we lack veteran leadership to show these kids what 'man(tf)up' looks like.

_________________

Reason #2 that I've stayed away: the weekly howls of despair. I'm not being derogatory or dismissive of my fellow fans here. I just know what I'll find after days like this. I know what I'll read. And I can't blame a single poster for feeling as they so. Losing sucks. And losing all the time? well... that sucks on a personal level.

Staying away from the daily/weekly grind of talking Browns has given me a different perspective. It's also led me to watching the game differently. I'm watching to see who has what. Who does what. I can't watch expecting to win, because we don't yet have a fully-equipped professional football team.


At the beginning of the season, everyone had pretty realistic expectations: "They're so young..." "There will be some flashes, but there will be some real stinkers..." "There will be speed bumps..."

Well... this is what speed bumps look like. This is what a 'youth movement' brings you. And because we're such a young team, those speed bumps look like one long endless stretch of washboard dirt road. It sucks rocks. But it is what we should have all expected for Year Two.

Anyone who's watched this bunch since '99 can see the pattern here... THIS is the year that tells me if Haslam has learned anything from his years as owner. Because if he blows up another partially-formed team again after this season, he deserves an empty stadium on Opening Day '18.

.02

That fact that you weren't focused on Drango means he did his job.

I was quite satisfied with what I saw, for the most part.

I read somewhere where Hue said that they have to be so perfect and that it is impossible for a team to be perfect.

It is what it is.

We have a very young and inexperienced team that is going to make mistakes and we don't have enough talent/experience to overcome mistakes.

I truly hope Haslam doesn't listen to the people who are calling for firings. If he does, I wonder if either one of us will try to talk the other off the ledge?

I like your optimism, Diam. I really, really do.
I WANT to feel that, but I'm not allowing myself the luxury. Not just yet.

Reason: I don't trust Haslam to let this play out for another 2 seasons... because that's what it will take to get over the hump.

I think it's being built right at this point in time (so far). I think the job is only half-complete, but I can be on-board with HOW it's being done (at least Big Picture... nobody's gonna be 100% in the can with every decision, for sure).

We have a shot at competitiveness and a turned-around culture if Haslam stays the course.

I love that we see this from the same perspective.

To answer your question: I dunno, Dawg.
Maybe we should just 'Thelma & Louise' this beyotch, once and for all....

[Clem]: "Verse- it's been real-"
[Vers]: "Wish I could say it's been good-"
[V&C]: "One... two..."

Only you could come up w/a Thelma and Louise reference. Btw---I used to have a thing for Geena Davis.

That doesn't make you unique.

I figured.

I'm kind of struggling with this whole "we have to be perfect while admitting it's not possible" quote from Hue. I'm going to give him a pass on it because like someone mentioned above, he's probably run out of things to say.

But IF this is the kind of thing he's coaching the players to believe... no kidding we're having problems. Human psychology tells us that when you predetermine an (usually negative) outcome, our subsequent actions leading up to that point subconsciously ensure that outcome.

I don't want to go any further down this path at the moment because I don't think I can do it without it sounding like I'm bashing Hue, and I don't have any intention of doing that.

LOL.........even though you didn't want to bash Hue, your comments kinda did just that.

That is your right. However, I think what Hue is saying is the truth and he even mentioned that the players know it, too.

We need more talent and experience. Rhetoric will not change that.

Yeah, which again is why I didn't want to go further down that particular path. Because I do think Hue is doing something right if the players haven't given up on him through all this.

I know there is a talent/experience gap between us and a lot of other teams. NO denying that. But to say this team needs to play perfect football and re-enforce that belief in the minds of the players IMO doesn't do them any favors and is counter productive.

This team only needs 2 things:

-For the WRs to catch the ball

-For Kizer to recognize the best places to give his receivers the best chance of success and get the ball there.

If we can get competent execution on both fronts, mistakes will be minimized and opportunities to break it open will increase.


**Oh yeah, basic discipline... too many friggin penalties.

Duly noted.

Now, what do you think of a FO that lets some of your most talented players walk and cuts others? What kind of message does that send to the team?

Brock Osweiler "won" ten games last year.

And we would have some wins had Sashi not cut him.

I never understood the cutting Osweiler thing.

He's not good, but look what you got.

Not because he's good though. It'd be because he actually might know what he is doing instead of Kizer who is the worst. Being better than Kizer is not any sort of accomplishment.

(Also, we don't know who wanted him cut.)

I understand that, but we needed some wins. The mob is getting louder about Hue and the FO.

We don't know, but Brock's comments gives me a clue. You took them another way and used the word "weird." I used the word "revealing."

I agree somewhat. My overall point was that you can't judge a QB by his teams' won/loss record.

For example, DeShaun Watson was incredible today. Loss. Obviously he didn't play well.

Last week Mitchell Trubisky had six pass attempts. Win. Obviously he played well

I wasn't arguing that. I just think we should have kept Brock. I do not think going w/three QBs who haven't won a game in the NFL was a good idea.

Got it. That's not what I was originally discussing.

This is an honest question: Who are the most talented players that we let walk or cut?

These are the only I can think people could be talking about, but I could be missing some.

Greco - Signed as a backup several weeks in to the season
Barnidge - Still a FA
Pryor - We offered the most money and he was benched in Washington
Osweiler - He may have been our best QB, but he isn't good.
Haden - This is one that looks most like a mistake. Haden was overpaid for his past few years, and was risky with his injury history.
Mack - Alex was gone no matter the money we offered. Great player but he was going to be gone long before the FO or Hue were hired.
Bryant - old, overpaid DL who was replaced by younger, better players
Schwartz - Offered the biggest contract, he signed elsewhere. If the politics that were rumored occurred, it was a mistake but fault lies with both sides.

Couldn't agree more with keeping / starting Brock. Talking about this with my son today... Three QBs with NO experience and we let the only WR with any kind of threat to a defense walk. Can't make this stuff up. My question is why the heck didn't we still have McCown under contract? Was happy with his mentoring role, played his butt off and has more experience than the combined last 9 or 10 QBs not named him.

Vers, you're hitting the nail right on the head. I posted somewhere else, top priority first six weeks should have been winning at all costs. Listen to what Hue said today... "we can't win unless we're perfect, and we damn sure ain't perfect". Dude is just about beaten. We need a win in the worst way. Not for the fans, screw us, for the sanity of the team and a chance to stop the spread of this disease! Crap like this is what leads to stupid decisions and we CAN'T afford any more stupid decisions. IMO, everything has to stay intact through 2018 or it's two more steps back.

It's almost like the ultimate goal wasn't to win games, but to develop young players. . .

I think it's a tough sell for the players when they see a FO turn it's back on guys like Schwartz, Mack, Gipson, Benji, Pryor, Haden, Greco, Gabriel, Robertson, Brock, McCown, etc.

I get that the FO apologists will rip apart this post, but I think it makes a lot more sense than blaming Hue for his comments or calling a TO near the goal line.

I don't even want to talk to those guys anymore. I pray for the strength to ignore them. They just drag me down.

That makes sense. However, if it is true, talk of firing people makes no sense.

Agreed. Which is why I have said I wouldn't fire anyone.

How many seasons will it be acceptable for the FO to not care about winning?

I'd say three.

Even if they blew it all up, we would still have all these young players. They arent going away (unless they want to replace them with other young players, and maybe some washed up vets)

So basically, it comes down to the coaches. Are they crap? Can they get better coaches? Can they get a better FO? If not, then why bother blowing it up. I really do not think this team can attract any top tier FO/Coaches.

We are kind of stuck for a very long time.

What exactly should they do to fix this?

Easy fix. Fire Hue and then get a coach with football wisdom and IQ. Then get a guy for the FO who knows how to pick great players in the draft and free agency. It's really that simple.

Why hasn't anyone thought of this?

I think it will be another 2 or 3 years before we are consistent winners...if we keep the FO and Hue and company.

man we really have to see this through...but man it's painful right now.

I really hope we don't trade back nexts years draft and just take the #1 or #2 QB in the draft. hopefully the top guy this time.

Looked more like the FO extended a hand, the players spit into it and left. Just about as accurate as "turned their back on them."

Blaming the FO makes about as much sense as blaming Hue.

There is undoubtedly plenty of blame to go around for both with a ton left over from the "comedy" of errors that have piled up since the return. Getting rid of either would just be throwing more on the pile.

Still it kind of feels like the team accepts losing. How do we get them to play angry/maintain an edge? It's like we have a "hidden" expectation of losing and every time something goes wrong it gets bigger.

The confidence of all our QBs is shot. I can't tell if they can't process or they just don't trust what they see. Seems to make them a bit late and they end up "overthrowing" as they try to gear up to compensate.

My post game thought:

Over the years, I have really detested several of the things that made it "over the pond" to my country from Britain: kidney pie, the fascination with royal weddings and babies, men in capri pants, spotted dick, atrocious spelling.

After the game yesterday, I'd say we're even. I apologize to the people of England.

There is no easy fix. I think they need to stay the course.

I would like to see them use these high draft picks instead of trading down so we can get some impact players. And I don't think we should be creating holes by cutting players or allowing the better ones to walk in FA.

I think all of this losing may have altered "the course". The FO has put itself in the position where there is basically NO CHOICE but to go all in on the consensus top QB in next years draft. Unfortunately, everybody in the sport knows it. Darnold will probably stay in school because of it, and who knows who else follows suite. If they don't do it and any one of them (drafted QBs) show even a glimpse while we keep losing - Haslam is cleaning house. If he doesn't look like the "second coming" within eight weeks - Haslam is cleaning house. We've been stock piling picks and paying for cheap goods under the guise of "building" and "the process"... It's time to pay the piper, no matter what the piper is charging.

In response to the 4-eternity record since Hoyer was replaced as a starter.

Not only was it a head scratching move to the fans but it also was a key reason on why Shanahan left. You know one of the brightest offensive minds in football.

I really think too many of us on here that are blaming this regime forget how far the Farmer years have set us back!!!!

In all honesty, horrible draft picks and a circus that ran off legit NFL coaches have significantly put this franchise behind the 8 ball. I appreciate those that post and can keep things in perspective.

There is no doubt that it is hard being a Browns fan, especially as the years and losses add up. But, this FO has a plan, and I think they have done well, unfortunately the QB position continues to be a major problem and I do not see anyone in college that can be as good as Wentz or Watson. I will say that There is no way I would have imagined Wentz being this good, this early but I did see Watson as a star.

I feel we have to go all in on a QB next year. All in as in grab the best FA available and draft a QB high in the draft. We have the draft picks, time to make it happen.

I had this on the radio for a bit and listened on and off while I was doing my morning routine.

Hue Jackson has the most undisciplined team. Penalty after penalty and it's game after game. It seemed like every time I went in where the radio was to be be heard, we were backing up because of penalty. Kudos to the halftime lead, that was a shock.

No offense to Doug, hope he comes back and gets healthy soon - but I liked Nathan with Jim on the radio calls.

Some people not on the field made us better, or we didn't miss much of what they contributed before. Hue called some better, but go look at Dallas and Green Bay and how much they work the middle on passing offense. It works. Figure it out, because it helps us.
Later in the game Kizer reverted to shortest route available when we needed points and yards. Give him more of what he needs for us to succeed.

j/c ... random quotes and thoughts...



It's important to understand game situations. A timeout at this point wasn't a good call. I was screaming at the tv when the timeout was taken. Another friend said it didn't matter because Minnesota probably would have. 1) My friend needs to realize what he just said and 2) Let Minnesota use a timeout. If we score a TD on the next play, we've essentially given them 4 timeouts and 40 seconds to score. As a HC you have to assume they're going to at least get a FG in that time, so why give them any time at all? We go into the half up 13-12 instead of 13-9 because of the HC mismanagement of the clock.






I don't either. Unfortunately, I think someone is going to be fired unless we have a good second half.








Same line of thinking are with these two quotes... 1) I don't think Osweiler would be starting even if he was here. Everyone assumes it was the FO that cut him, but it was Hue's decision not to play him in the preseason. Kizer was his quarterback. Is that up for debate? Maybe, but the FO has stated that Hue is the one who decides who plays not them. I think we might have seen Osweiler play a game with Kizer's struggles, but I would have expected a Kevin Hogan type response as far as going back to Kizer, because he's the guy with all the talent who could lead us into the next phase of the "rebuild." I think yes, the ultimate goal in season one was to develop talent, as is year two, but I still think you need some positive results. I think even Jimmy once said you'll see significant improvement in year 3. I hope he keeps it all together. No major additions. No major Subtractions.








I think the 3 major players in question are Schwartz, Haden and Pryor. Schwartz and Pryor were wanted here and we attempted to sign them. In fact, we probably went above and beyond with Pryor. I don't want to rehash the Schwartz thing here, but so many believe he was dogged by the FO which he wasn't. Schwartz has since been replaced by Shon Coleman. I don't think we really miss Schwartz at this time. Same with Haden. I think the only way we miss him is his veteran leadership, but I don't think he'd be much better than the CBs we have today. I do think I'd add Gipson or Whitner to the list. I think some semblance of safety play would have helped over last season into this season, but I like that we were able to give Kindred and Reynolds playing time last year. Unfortunate Reynolds went down. I knew that one was going to hurt. But all in all, I think with the majority of the players listed, we don't really miss them.

I can't ignore the continued bashing of the front office by many of the posters. They are doing exactly what they said they will do. And NONE of us here knows exactly WHO is making the decisions on the players. Our powers that be do an excellent job of keeping things in house. I'm sure there has to be tension, but they continue to stay the course.

I read on here over and over and over that it's a shame the FO didn't keep this guy or that guy. I think it's a bit ignorant to assume the front office is making all these decisions on their own. No one knows who is making the calls but the people upstairs. Over and over there are some posters here who refuse to believe that the front office might be consulting with coaches when it comes to the players on this team. And over and over I read that Hue is innocent in all this, poor Hue, and he has nothing to do with the losses on the field. Well, Hue probably makes the same mistakes now as he'd make with the steelers or the patriots or whomever he coaches. The problem is we don't have the talent to overcome these mistakes. His mistakes certainly aren't helping our young football team. But if he still has them playing at a high level, that's a very good thing. And I think he does. You don't need to be the most talented team to win a football game. Hue is learning on the job just as much as our players. It'll come around. I hope.

Two people must enjoy science fiction books.

So exactly when did realize you were the Smartest man in the room !

I'm sure there's more than two...

And if you'd like to learn more about football there are books out there for you to read.

Not too long after I arrived in the room. Why?

Lol that was funny