DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum It's Time to Fire Pettine and Farmer.

"We do not know how to win". (Said again for emphasis).

I addressed that point in another thread, DC...

That's fine. I don't keep a log of who said what in which thread..

, . Nor should you. (It was in the Gruden thread and basically said what if we had a pass picked off - then we would be arguing that we should have played safer, run the ball and kick a FG).

And you forgot the biggest sin of all, he lied to the coach and team... and the players support the coach.. I think you are dead wrong. I believe that Pettine, Haslam and Farmer did the right thing in this case.

And if you wish, you can argue that Pettine didn't give Haslam and Farmer a choice, but they are clearly onboard with the decision.

Nope, you won't be ... you're all about excusing anything & everything Johnny does out one side of your mouth while you're all over Gordon's case out the other side.

Yup, you're a regular Fox News Fair & Balanced poster child.

First of all, you are once again missing the point. Purp was calling me a hypocrite. I explained that the situations are different and that people who have been bashing JM will glorify Gordon. We have already seen that happen in the past. In fact, mac..........you were one of those people screaming about poor Josh's punishment.



Compare Manziel's acts to Gordon's for me, mac. Tell me how they are equal.

So, you think that Gordon's and Manziel's crimes are the same? Are you denying that you and others cried like babies because he was being suspended? Are you saying that you and others haven't excused all of his transgressions?

Hypocrite is the right word. You just have misidentified the perpetrators.

Is it realistic to expect him to be able to earn back "trust?" If you can't make the field or be active, game performance might help, and, if it is possible, very arguable. Not sure if I can trust him. Not much interested at this point.

I don't feel driven "to know what we've got" actually. This sideshow needs to get gone.
He has cut the mustard or he has not. However it is judged, his on-field and off-field actions and play are his body of work. He has had coaching, help, support, and more help to get right, more than he deserved some will argue. We owe him nothing else. Any consideration going forward is manna.

If I am Haslam, at some point I need to put some questions (read problems) to bed.
Some are on the sideline, others are on the field. Neither group tackles well, incidentally.

This argument is ridiculous. And it is about to become more ridiculous and the real points will be lost in rhetoric.

My point is this: the crimes of Gordon's are far, far worse than the crimes of Manziel. And it ain't even close.

And, Gordon was suspended by the league, not the Browns, for breaking rules he agreed to abide by.

Manziel was not suspended, fined, cut, or anything else other than being benched by the team for lying.

So, yes, you're right. The crimes of Gordon are far far worse than the lying of manziel. One got suspended and is receiving no pay. The other one got benched.

The crimes are different, and so are the consequences.

Pettine, at this stage, won't ever get clock management right. If he's incapable of assessing the situation, and same with the people in the booth, then everyone needs fired. Everyone. Something so simple that we continously fail to accomplish.

Compare Manziel's punishments to Gordon's for me. Tell me how they are equal.

I applauded Pettine as overdue. Consequences are way overdue. He is lucky they didna clean out his locker.

Reminded of a Japanese business axiom which requires all involved parties to approach an issue the same way: "Don't fix blame; fix problems."

We seem to have enough issues to go around, and maybe we can consider it as a healthier approach. No resolution to be had (as in 'solution') if all the energy is in fault finding. The problem abides. Not trying to be all Zen-nish, but it has sterling merit IMO. In Berea and on this board.
Also writing advice that has merit: "First, slaughter your darlings!" Some of our underperforming faves (players and COACHES) are cutting our throats with their performance.

I was dumb enough to expect better as a fan.

That depends upon how you measure them.



Yup, I'll deny that all damn day.


Yup, I'll deny that one, too. In fact, I do believe that I've been in favor of the "tough-love" approach in most every case, but at the same time I've been willing to give him chances once he's paid his consequences.


Not yet, I haven't... so far, I'm right on target.

Welcome to the club........

There is blame, but it's not nearly as important as a solution. So, I agree with you.

Sadly, I have no idea what its going to take.

At this point, I would take anyone we've had since the return over Farmer.

Scratch that, I'd take anyone besides Holmgren. Can I get Heckert without Holmgren?

You will very rarely see me be critical of being TOO aggressive. Especially at this point in a lost season. Heck on that 4th and 1, where I believe we went empty backfield and McCown threw a real nice pass to Barnidge on the slant between two defenders... I liked that call... but had it been incomplete, yes, some would have said, just run the ball for a yard, like that's a given for us.

H

Went to a garden party
They all knew my name.......

Can't please everyone
So ya, got to please yourself

We have many players that if properly conditioned and coached would be solid to very good players for any team. We have a few stud players. We have too many scrubs, average or just below average players.

We are terrible at player evaluations before drafting and signing.

Our Oline, Defense and run game all took major steps the wrong way this year.

We absolutely have too many distractions from the job of winning football games.

All of this spells cleaning house to me. I see zero chance of that not happening at this point. I see zero chance that ANY of the coaching staff is retained. I think Farmer is done for sure and possibly many under him.

We desperately need a football President/CEO to take over the football side and take the pressure off of Haslam (remove Haslam from the equation). <- doubt that happens though.

The key in all of that is that Haslam has to hire the guy and then remove HIMSELF. If he's not willing to do that, then it might all be for naught.

See, in the business world, CEO's inject themselves when they see problems. Their name is on the door (so to speak) and they want to handle problems themselves, that and growth of the company are really their two biggest jobs... So it's very hard when a guy is new to something like the NFL to NOT want to jump in and fix things when they aren't going well... that's usually what they have spent the last 20 years doing.

What a wasted pick.

I don't know if this writer has all the facts or not, but that's besides the point. Gilbert hasn't been what he was supposed to be. Wasted pick

Agreed. Hire those you trust and get the heck out of the way. Sounds like there is waaaaay too much meddling in this FO.

It does look like there is very poorly designed areas of responsibility.. people wanting to do other peoples jobs, etc... while none of them are doing their own job particularly well... JUST DO YOUR JOB.

I'm not an expert, but I believe it has a lot to do with an inability to trust Haslam.

He rarely speaks. Not that we need a Jerry Jones, but while there have been rumors about his plans the only officially stated strategy has been, "We're trying to improve the fan's experience".

So far it's stadium, uniforms and gourmet fast food.

There's no substance anywhere from the coach up.

I'd like to like Pettine, but he says and repeats all the same meaningless statements like all of our coaches (new team) have said.

Until Haslam makes a statement regarding a serious plan to fill the front office with quality in the way he had a plan to change the stadium, food and uniforms (hopefully it's better than the uniforms plan) we'll continue rolling down hill hitting every bump and NO coach other than someone like Pettine will want to take the job.

This is a point various people have attempted to make for a couple of years, though over-emotional homer-type fans do not want to face this.

mac - Manziel is a first round draft pick. A young man, not a child. He has a daddy in Texas, he doesn't need a daddy in the FO. I give him a pass for lying, because he should not have been in a position to feel he had to justify his completely 'legal' adult actions on his time off. Pettine and company are the ones who did the wrong here imho and they wronged Manziel by making him their whipping boy.

He was drafted to play and start, not to ride the pine and jump when the egotistical know nothing coach says jump.

Toward your 1st point. My Dad would tell me, If you don't want to be treated like a child, don't act like one. JFF isn't acting like an adult. He is acting like a college kid. He's not a college kid anymore. There are teammates who need to depend on him and he shows over and over that he cannot be counted on.

As for the 2nd point, it's that attitude of entitlement that has been the downfall of numerous 1st round draft picks over the years. Professional football isn't a game, it's a job.

For some, being a fun means trust.

At this point I'm still hoping, but I don't have much trust left.

Haslam makes Randy Learner look like Jerry Jones.

No, I don't. I think Manziel messed up.
However, I think the punishment exceeded the crime. I got Purp and others telling me how badly Gordon was punished. Are they really that confused, or are they simply not debating fairly?

Gordon's harsh punishment was from the NFL. The same NFL that you guys lambasted for punishing Gordon, who actually did break the freaking law and for violating the code of conduct that the NFL and the Player's Association agreed to.

Y'all following?

Drinking is NOT against the law. Still following?

The league and the NFLPA does not have an agreement that states that players are NOT allowed to drink. Still following?

Yet, the Browns demoted JM for not breaking the law or the code of conduct set forth by the league and the NFLPA and welcomed back Gordon as soon as he returned from his suspension and immediately thrust him into the starting lineup. No one else thinks that is hypocritical?

I think the Browns are short-sighted and they bit off their nose to spite their face. Last night was a classic example. Yeah, JM is imature and entitled. Yeah, he lied, but mac, be honest, do you think that Pet, Farmer, and Haslam have never lied? Do you believe the story they are selling about how Manziel was drafted? Do you believe that they don't meddle? Do you believe Haslam didn't have any clue that his company was ripping off other companies? Come on, mac...............it's hypocritical. I am not defending JM so much as I am saying that the Brown's brass are a bunch of incompetent slime balls.

Great point. Why should he have to lie about doing something that is legal, yet other players on the team and throughout the league are permitted to drink?

Do you really think that other players in the NFL don't drink and party? Seriously?

I can GUARANTEE you that you are wrong!!!! Guarantee it!!!!

I don't really wanna comment on Manziel drinking, because I don't really know the details of his program. We have no idea what he was being treated for, and if alcohol is something he's allowed to do.

I really don't even think what he did was all that bad. I don't really care. The hilarious part is people would all be defending his actions if he were winning games. Kinda like they do with Gronk in New England...

But man can he just humor the team and pretend he's 24/7 football? Like just for a little bit until you have some cache? Johnny deserves a ton of blame, but this is what happens when you have a coach who hands out off days every chance he can get. There is no respect going in Mike Pettine's direction. The Justin Gilbert stuff that came out yesterday from Kevin Jones seals the deal for me. Gilbert is a bad egg, and Manziel has a foot in the playbook and a foot in the club, but the people above them aren't really cut out for shaping young people's lives. I get that at 21-22 you are a legal adult, but man you have a lot of learning to do.

I really thought Manziel had a chance to earn the job for the near future. For the rest of the year, for beyond that. With a likely new regime coming in, he had to make his own case for sticking around. I really think he's gone in a few months. What incoming GM is going to want him? I don't even think Jimmy will step in the way.

The sad thing is, Johnny can play. I think he showed us that this year. He really did put the work in. From last year to a few weeks ago in Pittsburgh, there is clear development. It's just not enough. He better take advantage if Pettine puts him back in there, because the clock is ticking.