DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Donald Trump: Flag burning should be illegal

I don't know, but then again I did burn my LeBron James Youth jersey when he left. So I'm not sure I should be the one to talk.


However, it's very important that all speech is allowed. I often come across the thoughts of Noam Chomsky when faced with this dilemma. For some context of this quote, Chomsky caught flack for signing an undetailed petition trying to get a French professor freedom, after he denied the Holocaust. Chomsky didn't know the second bit.

Eck..........I hated seeing those guys burning LeBron's jersey. Bunch of punks in my view. He was a free agent and was well w/in his rights to leave.

I think there are much better ways to protest the state of things than to burn things. I believe in being proactive and innovative rather than defiant and destructive.

Well, as you ask....

I think our prisons and tax dollars can be better served for real criminals. Somebody exercising their 1st amendment right by burning the flag (or putting it on the ground where people have to walk across it like the kid did in the Chicago art exhibit in the late 80's/early 90's causing outcry from the right) is far less of an issue than it is to lock people up for doing so. Imprisonment for a year, revoking citizenship etc. is not the actions of a free country. In fact, it is the complete opposite of freedom.

Okay, but beating people up because they have Trump stickers on their car and robbing them is how a free nation should work?

How about people setting fires to businesses and looting them while pretending that you are protesting the shooting of another person? Is that how a free nation should work?

It amazes me about the things people complain about.

Yeah, I mean, I just didn't really want any LeBron James merch back then. Still kinda don't.

Never have I once condoned or supported anything of the such. So, not sure where this accusation is coming from.

In fact, I publicly said several times in these forums how much I was appalled and disgusted with the post-Election riots that happened in my city.

Okay, that's fine.

I just was trying to keep the thread on track. The title was about flag burning.

Kinda sucks when others push their agenda down your throat when that agenda is against everything you stand for or believe in, doesn't it?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the proper way to dispose of a flag is to burn it, not throw it in the trash or whatever.

At any rate, if someone wants to burn their own flag have at it, just don't burn that which doesn't belong to you.

And if that is what someone feels is necessary to protest our government then that's on them. And I don't think there is an epic outbreak of flag burning that is tearing this nation apart much like some other topical issues that surface from time to time like transgender issues for instance.

Let's focus on the real battles, the battles that matter from door to door.

You're correct and disrespect rules in our nation. It's okay to loot. To riot. To burn. But damn if you if you want to put a stop to such things.

According to who?

You keep repeating the same nonsense, but it doesn't make it true.

There's not a person on this board who supported the looting and such.

But burning a flag shouldn't get you jail time. It should get you called a few names and some colorful insults, but that's where it ends.

If we're gonna start jailing people for burning flags, then we just decided as a nation that the first amendment doesn't actually exist.

Don't know about the rest of you guys, but that's a rabbit hole I don't plan on going down.

I don't think you'd find more than one or two people on this board's entire roster who'd think that flag-burning is a good thing. I certainly don't. I've never done it, and can't see a circumstance in which I ever would. I think the vast majority of citizens feel as I do.

That said, it's protected under the 1st, which also protects other forms of expression. The instant any one of these protections is jeopardized, all others become at risk.

So... it's not so much a matter of championing the actual burning of the flag, but championing the spirit and letter of the 1st Amendment, which protects us in many other ways.

I abhor hearing far-right ethnic supremacists spout ideology that blatantly runs counter to the way I was raised, but the minute I advocate for their censure, I open the opportunity to have MY voice silenced, as well. And yours. And Swish's. And 40's. It's an ugly and inconvenient aspect of the 1st, but it's necessary to ensure that every one of us has the right to free expression.

If flag-burning becomes punishable by incarceration, deportation (illegal to do to American citizens, btw) or loss of citizenship, it's a very short and slippery slope to outlawing other forms of protected speech/expression. That's the fast track to tyranny- which puts ALL of us in jeopardy.

This one requires a nuanced understanding of our rights, even if we find some free expressions reprehensible. This is a prime example of how steep POTUS-elect's learning curve is... and how woefully unprepared he is for the job he's about to take on. I can name at least 2 dozen posters on this board who regularly demonstrate a better command of the constitution, bill of rights and governmental checks & balances than he has. Dude's gonna have to get used to hearing "no" from blues AND reds once he comes into office. Some things he wants are strictly prohibited by the way our country is set up. Even those who voted for him should be happy (or at least relieved) about that.

So, vers- I can HATE flag-burning as a form of 'peaceful protest,' while still defending another's right to do it. It's still not illegal to act an ass in public- and it should stay that way. It protects all the rest of us when we need to speak up about something.

.02

Clem, I was busting chops. Please allow me to explain why.

I read article after article and post after post about how horrific Trump is and how our liberties are going to not only be challenged, but suppressed and eliminated.

Sorry bro, but I ain't buying that [censored]. It's more than likely going to be more of the same.

Yeah, I am cynical and skeptical, just like the ancient Greek philosophers who realized government was comprised of a bunch of hot-aired, self-serving, blowhards.

Clem, do you really think any flag burners will have their citizenship revoked? Do you really think that they will be jailed for a year?

It's just more melodrama from the dramatists.

Well Mr. Smart guy (I figure if I'm STUPID by reasonable deduction U must be SMART) ...

The last SC justice ... u know the guy Trump gets to replace ...

Any clue what his stance on flag burning was .... prolly not .. so i'll clue u in ...

He said something to the affect of "the flag burning hippies should be thrown in jail and then the key should be thrown away" .. or sumptin to that affect ...

Mr. Smart guy ... how did Scalia vote when the issue was brought before him on the SC ...

Again .. I'll help .. since your to busy running around proving how SMART u are all the time as opposed to ACTUALLY LEARNING ANYTHNG .... .

He voted in favor of keeping the hippies out of jail and voted for protecting our right to do it ..

U know why he did that SMART guy? .. cause thats what the CONSTITUTION SAYS TO DO ...

The two liberal old ladies should retire .. not because there liberal but because they don't give a CRAP ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION ... every vote they've ever made follows their BELIEFS and not what the constitution said to do ...

Now go ahead and call me STUPID AGAIN cause i don't understand that the constitution can be can be interpreted differently ... guess what menza .. I DO GET IT ... i can also read ... some parts there isn't much if any GRAY AREA in it ...

Go stick that in your bong and smoke it ... *LOL* ..

Vers, get your boy before I do.

LOL....................I love reading both of you guys. Entertaining as hell!

*L* ... get me ...

oh no ... i'm quivering ... just like on the other thread where U CALLED ME STUPID for using YOUR EXACT WORDS AGAINST YOU ....

U called me STUPID Swish .. pretty sad u get shcooled by a STUPID PERSON every time i come over here .... sad sad sad Swish ...

Your gonna get me ... *LOL* ..

You've been calling me names since day one.

Don't start none, won't be none. If you wanna throw insults, we can throw insults. Don't whine when I clap back on you.

You have never schooled me.

But here, I gotta take you to class, like normal.

First off, what does Scalia have to do with this?

Trump, from his own mouth, said he's targeting SC judges that are anti abortion. Remember?

So, if you possess the ability to put two and two together, however doubtful that may be, then you will conclude that trump is targeting judges based off his agenda.

So logically, if trump wants people to go to jail for burning a flag, he will also try to target a judge who agrees with that, as well as being anti abortion.

Which I'm sure won't be hard to do in conservative land. That way, all it takes is the issue to be brought up, and bam: the judges can rule in that direction.

A 5-4 ruling means all it takes is a swing the other direction, and it can become the law just like that.

If you need me to draw stick figures to illustrate what I'm saying to you, let me know.

Really ... what part of what i said about Scalia is funny? .. i'd call them FACTS that Mr. DEFLECT and INSULT doesn't want to deal with ...

U gotta understand sumptin Vers ... these guys are all about FALSE NARRITIVES ...

Yep, looks like I gotta draw stick figures.

Everything is going over your head.

He finds it funny watching the two of you argue. He gets entertained by it.

Where do babies come from?

I don't whine ... i ain't u ... not going to get into the name calling thing .. waste of time .. once again your wrong ...

U can call me anything u like .. don't bother me in the least .. i ain't a house of cards .. u called me STUPID, DEPLORABLE a RACIST and 3 or 4 other nice things .. its OK .. I'm a big boy .. I also UNDERSTAND names can't hurt me if I don't let them .. am i gonna let u forget u called me STUPID ... not anytime soon ... *LOL* ..

There was lil Marco .. Lyin Ted, Crooked Hillary and now STUPID DIAM .. *LOL* .. its OK man ..

If u don't understand what Scalia has to do with this ... i can't help U Swish ... one thing on the name calling .. I said I thought u were SMART more than once .. now, i'm actually starting to question that ...

Trump ain't oBUMa .. so were good there ...

You didn't address anything in my response toward you.

Talk about deflecting. I see you got triggered again on the name calling.

You're worst than these hardcore feminist.

If you ask Diam, the storks still do deliveries

Your the one living in the 60's Swish ..

Jim Crow laws ... gimme a break ... FALSE NARRATIVE ...

Nightly Night boys ...

Uhhh....what?

Is Crow my last name? Is Jim my Daddy?

Jim is a lot of people's daddy

Yep, and before we know it then they move on to art. Art will have to support the state, look pretty and refuse to show anything demeaning or representative of life other than what the state wants you to see. This was art in the Third Reich. The artists that Hitler decided didn't fit the mold or who didn't support the state were deemed "degenerates". They were publicly humiliated, some of their art was destroyed, some of the artists were thrown into camps while others emigrated to the UK or the USA in fear of the above.

Once you start threatening to renounce citizenship or imprisonment then it really does start getting into "1984/Big Brother" territory. To be honest, I would think anybody, no matter if you are Republican/Conservative or Dem/Liberal would be appalled by this type of talk.

Yeah as really this is just another of the Donald's making promises and keeping them.

Though it is illegal to burn an American flag.

This condition replicated itself in another country. A country that actually fought against the Third Reich in WWII. And it happened in the decades immediately following the war. Nothing changed except the International Postal Code.


Dmitri Shostakovich.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Mstislav Rostropovich

For me, this isn't really an issue of 'buying it' or not. Constant vigilance by the populace is a responsibility, if we are to maintain our rights. From my POV, I'll fight as hard for the 1st Amendment as many of my Browns brethren would fight for their 2nd Amendment right. And I'll actually use my 1st to defend their 2nd. If I lose that voice, so do they- and how do they keep their guns then?

You see, vers: our rights as afforded by the amendments aren't independent of each other. On the contrary, they're interdependent. If I lose my 1st A voice, I'm in danger of losing the 14th. The 15th. If I lose my personal voice, I could be censured/punished for any poem I write, music I compose, op-ed I publish, or screenplay I concoct.



I think there is probably some shady legislative path for something like that to happen. That existential threat is always there. Like I said, constant vigilance is the price we all must pay to even have these freedoms at all. To me, it's not something I should be taking lightly. Too many of my heroes from the Literary, Fine Art and Classical Music World were punished by their governments. And too many of my ancestors lived in this country without these rights for me to ever take them for granted.

The most salient part of your self-described 'cynical observation' was the 'self-serving' mention... and that's the part that should scare each and every one of us the most. It would serve them best if they could empower us the least. It's why we even HAVE these amendments. Each one of them fixes (or prevents) an Eff-up that deals directly with Basic Human Nature. People are effed-up. ALL people, in some way. The Bible and all the other venerated 'manuals for righteous living' agree on this immutable fact. And effed-up people in power can effect they way WE live our lives.

"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely."

So... that's MY personal 'cynic's take' on the whole deal. Two different cynics/two different takes on the same situation. You see ineffectual blowhards. I see folks who have a real shot at taking away my ability to ply my trade, speak my mind, educate our young, and make a positive contribution to the country that has provided me so much.

You see? This goes beyond the current admin, the previous admin, or the next admin. It's our responsibility to continually remind them that they work for us- not the other way around. Our rights make this so. Take away a man's ability to speak- and every other right he has is vulnerable to attack.



I wish the same were true for me, Dawg. I'd get more nights of good sleep if I could see it your way.


just my .02

This morning as I step back from the raw nerve of emotions we are all showing over this flag burning issue, I asked myself, what is this really all about? Why Flags, why Trump, why now?

The thought has occurred to me that earlier this week Trumps campaign spokesman said in an interview she felt Mr. Trump has angered his base by considering Mitt Romney for Secretary of State.

Trump was furious with her. She had gone rogue in making that statement.

So what action did Trump take to repair any possibility of her being right? He reaches out to his base with a statement that he finds the burning of our flag to be just awful! It should be illegal!

His base is touched! The Donald is still with us!

Could this all be nothing more than a brilliant political move?
Hmmmmmmm.

Look more to the 48 laws of power to explain Trump and Romney.

Law 2: Never Put Too Much Trust In Friends, Learn How To Use Enemies

Be wary of friends they will betray you more quickly, for they are easily aroused to envy. They also become spoiled and aroused to envy. They also become spoiled and tyrannical. But hire a former enemy and he will be more loyal than a friend, because he has more to prove. In fact, you have more to fear from friends than from enemies. If you have no enemies, find a way to make them.

Link

If they physically hurt someone in the process no, but how many flag burners are guilty of hurting more than feelings?

In one respect, I hate that people feel it's important to burn the flag in protest. As has been pointed out, it's protected.

I agree with Trump and the scores of other politicians who say that flag burning for any reason other than retiring the flag, is not something I want to see as legal.

But if he want's to stop flag burning for protests, he's gonna have to go through all the steps to make it an action that can be prosecuted. As of now, it isn't.

For the moment, this is just more of Trump's blustery commentary.. Chalk this up as another issue such as the "WALL" and "Term Limits"!

We're not talking about the recount that was dominating the news, are we?

Mission accomplished.

Are you saying this is a diversion tactic? LOL

If so, there is a better one coming tomorrow when Trump goes to Indiana and announces he's struck a deal with Carrier (United Technologies) to keep those jobs in Indiana that were supposed to move to Mexico starting in 2017.

Can't wait to hear what he had to give them and how he'll pitch it in a way that makes it sound like a great deal for America!

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/busine...in-us.html?_r=0

LOL.......if it weren't for hurt feelings and drawing attention to oneself, why would anyone burn a flag?