DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Anybody hope we lose out?!?!?!

Right now Oakland and Detroit have 2 wins each, so they are 1-2 no matter what and no real need to mention them again.

Teams with 4 wins:

Browns
Bucs
Cardinals

Teams with 5 wins

Skins
Texans

If the Browns lose next week, we have the 3rd or 4th pick.

A win as I see it would slide us down to # 8 pretty much no matter if all the other teams lost.

#7 is possible if the Skins win against the Giants putting them at 6 wins.

The cards are at 4 wins and have the Chargers next week. I say they lose.

I am pretty sure our schedule strength was higher than anybody elses in this mix so we would lose any tiebreakers that don't go head to head, so..

We draft #4, #6, or #8.


Maybe we just start Doresy and bring in lang Campbell for a week.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm all for stinking up the joint in Houston if we can get the LT you all rave about. I'd probably be disappointed if we win.
Can Shaffer play left guard?

http://www.gbnreport.com/

We've got 3 locked up with a loss to Houston...

Our SOS was .527 entering TB...Curious to see how much it went down...And it will go down further after next week...Teams around us are all playing teams to increase their SOS...

GOOD FOR US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think we have to "hope." This team will lose out just because it stinks.

This would be my dream off-season. I would move Shaffer to Right Tackle. Hopefully we can get Stienbach in Free Agency and have him play left guard. Re-sign Fraley to play center. Draft Joe Thomas and another guard in round 3. So our line would look like this.

LT Joe Thomas (Rookie)
LG Eric Stienbach (Vet)
C Hank Fraley (Vet)
RG Draft (Rookie)
RT Kevin Shaffer (Vet)

[color:"gold"] Yep, like I said, "Starting to look like we could be the 3rd pick in the draft behind Oak and Det."... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
[/color]

Yeppers...CONFIRMED...

We LOSE and we're at 3...We get the TB tie breaker on weaker SOS...

Let's Go Dayne...Run it down our throats!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wouldn't we also get the tie-breaker cuz they beat us?

for the 1st time ever, I truly hope we lose next week. It's gonna be weird watching and hoping we suck.

U would think...But No...

Draft sequence is based upon team records and strength-of-schedule. In slotting teams with the same record, the team whose opponents had the weakest schedule picks ahead of the team whose opponents had the next weakest schedule and so forth for that group.

In the event of ties (teams with the same record and the same strength-of-schedule), the first applicable tiebreaker (head-to-head, divisional record, or conference record) will be employed, with the tiebreak loser getting the higher selection in Round One. If there are no applicable tiebreakers (as would be the case with teams from opposite conferences that did not face each other), ties will be broken by coin toss.

http://www.ourlads.com/draftsequence.cfm

just clicking

im rooting for the best thing for the team and that is...

LOOSE GET THE DRAFT PICK

LETS GO HOUSTON lol

Allow me to rephrase what I earlier said. After reading this post, it is evident you think he is doing a good job. Sheesh man....you sound like some of the other eternal optimists on here. LOL


Why would you say something so dumb? I don't want the Browns to do well? I'm not going to give the speech about my allegiance to the Browns, but you can save that [censored] for someone else.

I call them as I see them. I've already said that it doesn't bother me at all if you and and anyone else sees it differently. As of now, I think too many of his moves have been poor.

I like Wimbley a lot. He's going to be a very good player. Probably a Pro Bowl player.

DQ? I can't consider him something we can build on. He might turn out okay and he could just as easily be yet another guy who we are looking to replace in 4 years. McNeil would have been the choice who we could have built on.

Who's next on your list? Bentley.....He could be, but I am not so sure if he will ever play again. No, it is not Opie's fault that he got hurt. Where did I say that? But, I'm not so deserate to make Opie look good that I can say that Bentley is someone we can build around. His injury is very serious.

You think Leon is a part of the foundation? The dude is a walking time bomb, just like I told you he would be when we drafted him. Two more drops yesterday matched the number of meetings he was late for in the week. He disses teammates and the organization. He can't catch and his route running sucks. He forgets plays and where to line up. If you consider him as part of the foundation, I hope you were able to get good insurance, because that house is going to crumble.

The next two are where you really go off your rocker. Your counting Leon Williams and Pool as building blocks? Damn man! I like Williams. He seems athletic and energetic. But it is WAY too early to call him part of the foundation. As far as Pool goes, I really wish you guys would start watching him in games. He makes one or two plays a game, but he stands around more than any db I've seen in a while. I won't call him a bust because it is too early, but he sure has played more like a bust than a foundation type of a player.

I want you to go back and read your list again. Then think about it and ask yourself if that looks like a solid foundation to you. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />



Let me help you get a clue.

1] The offensive line was neglected in the draft one more year. It takes o-linemen some time to get it, thus we are one more year behind in building a solid OL. That's huge. Savage has ignored the OL twice in the draft. That puts us TWO years behind where we should be.

2] The defensive line is not very good and they are a year older. Those guys will need replaced. We have not brought in fresh, quality talent on the DL. One should have been brought in this year. Fraser is a good guy and has a high motor, but he gets pushed around and is NOT starting material.

3] The QB situation is more unsettled than it was even last year. I'm not saying that neither can be the guy, but it looks like we have a lot of uncertainity at that position.

4] The coaching staff already lost one member during the year and is going to lose several more this off season. The S & C coach also is probably out the door. RAC is on the hot seat and while he will probably make it to next season, his ass is going to be in the fire from day one of next year. We know how that usually turns out.

Now.....you look at that. I won't even mention the RB position, which is also uncertain. The 3 most important units of the football team are weak. The coaching staff is on thin ice and we will lose more coaches after the season. I don't call that progress, and if you do...you are as clueless as the other optimists on here. I don't think you are that clueless..so you might wanna wake up and look at the big picture.


I don't have a problem w/Joe. The problem I have is that we have drafted a WR w/in the first three rounds every year since 1999. Is the position fixed? Wanna know why not? Because we haven't fixed the offensive line since then!!! WTF is so hard to understand?

I know, I know.....Savage only has drafted two of those receivers. Of all freaking positions to emphasize, he emphasizes WR?!?! It kills me how people are letting that slide. LOL...........Wide Receiver? Leon has talent, but he isn't going to be worth the # 3 overall. Wilson? Who knows, but him not playing this year doesn't get my hopes up. The fact is that we would have been better served drafting elsewhere.

You must really enjoy talking about losing games at the end of the year in order to improve our draft status. You do it every year. Why? Because the Browns suck every year. Yet, we draft wide receivers and dbs who can't cover. Defend that until you are blue in the face, but I actually would rather talk about making the playoffs in December instead of the the draft. And we won't contend until we DRAFT offensive and defensive linemen!

GROW UP will ya .... I wont stoop to your level and state the obvious .. cause making the leap from what u say to U want Opie fired is a MUCH MUCH SMALLER leap than taking what i say and turning it into Opie is doing a good job ... like i said ... GROW UP ...



not me .. i just try and sugarcoat things .... *L* ... other than tabber I'm prolly the most optomistic poster on the board ... just ask anyone ... thats what they'll tell U ... when u say optimism we think of Diam right after tab ... <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />



WOW ... that must have been hard for U to type ... U can admit we have ONE GOOD PLAYER ... what a joke ... teams with only one good player dont win any games much less 4 ....



DQ had a really good year for a rook .... especially with the talent aroundhim ... he will do nothing but get better ... and he showed INSTINCTS we havent seen here since holmes left ....

your just to bitter to admit it ... Opie didnt do what U wanted so it was a BAD MOVE ... I wanted McNeil to .. but i understood what Opie did even though i didnt agree with it ....

PS. there were MAJOR CONCERNS about Mcneils back going into the draft .. why do u think he slipped till the middle of rnd 2??? SD had ENOUGH TALENT they could ROLL THE DICE ... we didnt ... we went DEFENSIVE FOUNDATION instead .... but now its easy to rip Opie cause McNeil's back is fine ... I would have also much rather had McNeil and wish we had him now ... we took DQ instead and he was a GOOD PICK .... you just can; tadmit it cause it wasnt' what u wanted ...

and if McNeil was here you'd be maoning about him cause if u cant admit u saw alot of good things with DQ u are EXPECTING WAY TO MUCH FROM ROOKS to begin with ...

DQ's a SOLID piece .... like is aid he aint spectacular ... but hes A NICE PIECE to have ...



when u put it in that context all by it self it makes me look like a MORON ... good job of changing the context to make me look like one .. now to recap so it is shown in the PROPER LIGHT ...

u said Opie IGNORED the OL .... I brought up La and said bringing in the BEST YOUNG CENTER who was a 2 time pro bowler was far from IGNORING IT ...

U said we have no pioeces to build on ... I said La is a NICE PIECE .... and even with his injury ... MANY ,MANY TEAMS WOULD LOVE TO HAVE HIM TO BUILD AROUND ...

I know he has a SERIOUS INJURY ... i also know in the last ten years I can; tthnk of one OL whos career ended due to ONE KNEE INJURY ... not one ... so he may not be back next year ... (i think he will but u never know) ... but 2008 dont count???

U guys allready have him dead and buried and never returning ..... sorry i don't buy it ... but hey if it fits your doom and gllom attitude then so be it ... be as depressed about the browns as u want ... not my problem ...



i guess we need to define what the word foundation means ... appearantly to u it means SUPERSTARS .... cause that seems to be your criteria .... i mentioned his route running and dropsies .... but then also mentioned he does things u need in a GOOD #2 ... and i noticed u didnt' refute any of that u just regurgitated what i said and added his lateness to meetings ... *L* .. good stuff Vers ...

MANY TEAMS IN THE NFL would love to have him ... but again U can't get over where we drafted him and how much u HATED HIM .. (and btw .. i HATED that pick also ... SO DONT ACT LIKE I WAS IN LOVE WITH IT ... i just aint gonna be a baby and carry on about it like U do) .....were not talking DRAFT STATUS now were talking about a foundation and players to fill certain rolls and do it competently ... at least thats a foundation in my BOOK ... appearaantly yours must be all superstars ...



#1 I said POSSIBLE building blocks ... a word u so CONVENIANTLY left out ... a trait of yours I've come to love and respect over the years .. its so endearing .. *L* ...

I remember a guy named Troy that plays for Pitt and after his rookie year one of the things alot of football analysts said about him was he STOOD AROUND TO MUCH and NEVER MADE PLAYS .... hes been to the Pro Bowl every year since then i think .. *L* ..

is Pool ever gonna be Troy?? NOPE .. but he was basically a rookie this year .. and has alot of ATHELETIC ABILITY that COULD make him a decent player for years to come .. sorry if he didnt perform like u wanted him to in limited duty this year while PLAYING TWO POSITIONS and not being able to concentrate on one ... he was basically a ROOKIE playing a position that MOST FIRST YEAR PLAYERS STRUGGLE AT ... and he STRUGGLED .. the HORROR!!!!!!!! *L*

as for Williams .. i said COULD ... but appearantly u just IGNORED THAT word again ... i like what i see from the kid .. and can't wait to see what hes like after another year in the system ...



we have MORE ... thats all Opies brought in .. i was sticking to the context of what u said .. something u dont do when BASHING ME and my opinions ... but like i said .. i've come to expect it from U ..

i guess the difference STILL IS ... I dont expect EVERY PICK TO PAN OUT and dotn expect MIRACLES and can also see what hes doing even if its NOT HOW I WANTED IT DONE .. something u appearantly will never get over ...



lets see if u helped or just SPEWED MORE BITTERNESS ...



*L* .. thats just funny and didnt educate me at all ... i been preaching OL and the draft since LONG BEFORE U WERE EVEN ON THE BOARD ... so dont waste your time ...

I agree with u 100% here .,,, i wish we went OL in Rnd 2 and or 3 in both Opies drafts ... (no probs with no OL in rnd 1 in either draft .. just NOT GOOD CHOICES where we picked .. ) ... but we didnt ... AND even though I didnt get what i wanted and KNOW WE NEED I can completely UNDERSTAND what he did ... U can't ... u wanna just be bitter and rip him every chance u get ... EVEN THOUGH this last year he got a GREAT YOUNG CENTER and a below avg. but YOUNG LT in FA .. so he didnt IGNORE IT NEAR AS MUCH AS U WANNA MAKE IT OUT TO BE ..

lets see what happens this year ... I said last year if he dotn adress it on day 1 this time around I'll start to question him and how hes building this team ...



*LOL* ,.. this is funny ... HOW MANY FIRST ROUND PICKS U THNK WE HAVE???? who and when should these guys have been brought in ... i mean we took the problem child from Pitt ... AND we drafted a NT late .. the only FA's available were Williams who we wanted to come visit but he went to Minni first and NEVER LEFT ... after that it was ll retreads and we got ONE OF THE BEST ..

WTF should he have done .. should he have $hit a DL??? *L* ..

HOW MANY THINGS COULD HE ADRESS ADEQUATELY???

according to u so far he should have brought in OL/DL and LBers (and in a 3-4 LBers are part of the FOUNDATION) ... all YOUNG AND QUALITY ... REGARDLESS of what was available and how limited our choices were .... *L*



HUH???? I'd say its actually much MUCH CLEARER .... last year we ahd a career back up in Dilfer (whos backing up again .. *L*) ... and an unknown in frye ... now we know we NEED ONE ... *L* ... but at least we know we have a competent back up ... where as last year we didnt ..

i'm not surte what the hell u expected this year ... we gave a 3rd rnd draft pick a chance and he FAILED ... imagine that ... *L* ...



if one of the coaches we lose is Robiskie .... GOOD ... and alot will happen between now and march much less between now and next year ... before i turn this into to much of a negative I'll let it play out ... this is pessimism at its best .. and you've mastered it .... *L*



I did .. and dint learn a SINGLE THING I didnt all ready know .. *L* .. my guess is u think I'm as clueless as I was before ... <img src="/images/graemlins/azzangel.gif" alt="" />



why is it uncertain?? Rube is Rube .. AGAIN ... it is no more uncertain than it was last year .. and its not as WEAK as u and many others wanna make it out to be ...

and next year if we do NOTHING AT ALL (see Turner from SD) it will be STRONGER than it was this year because harrsion and Wright wont be rookies and will improve ...

BTW your man Suggs u were so high on ... OUT OF FOOTBALL since like October ... ANOTHER HUGE MISTAKE BY OPIE ..... boy did we miss him .. *L*



looking at the big pic along with have REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS is what keeps me from leaping off a tall building ... witch by the sounds of things U made these posts sitting on the ledge of one ... <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />



AGAIN ... been preaching that since LONG BEFORE U were even on the board ...

PS. the two biggest WR mistakes we made were under the Policy/Clark and bOtch regimes ... Clark took Cutt over one Marvel Smith and your boy bOtch took Q over M. williams (RT for the Jags) ... those two pick PALE in comparision to what Opie has done ....

and no .. that dotn make what Opie did any better ... but quite frankly when he took Leon there shouldnt' have been an OL even in the pic at that point ... so this is a WEAK ASS ARGUMENT AT BEST ....



1. RAC dont play rooks ... so why u gonna panick when we had Bre/Joe/Cutt and Cribbs playing over him?? him not getting much PT this year should ahve been expected ... but using your head and knowing RAC dotn like rooks dont play into your bitter scathing review of Opie so u just ignore it .. *L*

2, we'll see if he would have been better served drafting elsewhere ... for the SHORT TERM meaning this year ... YES we would have ... but this year and NEXT YEAR will still be rebuilding years ... weather u like it or not ...



Ya its what i live for ... *L* .. this is so much fun I can hardly stand it .. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />



yep ... thats what Wimbely and DQ are .... WR's and DB's that cant cover .. *L* ...



No, i wont defend it .. I just wont act like a 2 year old and pi$$ and moan everytime i make a post about it .. i will point out the GOOD AND THE BAD instead of just rip everythign brown and orange cause they didnt do things my way ...

like i said before.. i thought u were smart ... i just didnt get it then .. u are smart ... the one thing u did make me realize in this post (u actually did give me a clue about sumptin ... one less area i'm clueless in .. Thanks .. *L*) .. is that u are smart ... u just act like a 2 year old when u dont get things done your way ...

we'll know mare about after this FA and draft ... it will be his third go round in both ... my guess is the lines will be a TOP PRIORITY IN the draft and FA ... if not we may be allies once again ... *L* ...































..

for us to have a SHOT AT JOE ...

its IMPERATIVE that Detroit picks first ... they will take Quinn there ... if Oak drafts one they take Quinn ... and Detroit very well may go with Thomas ... matter of fact that's who I'd pencil in for them ...

AND i have no clue how TB's strength of schedule is harder than ours ... not that I looked real close but we need to FINISH ahead of them as there another team that would more than likely tale Joe .. although they would have a shot at taking Calvin ...

anyhow the strentfh of schedule dual between us and Bucs and Detroit and Oakland dotn mean squat this week ... its whjere there at after next weeks game ....

i know the Lions play the Boys (hopefully the Boys need to win... ) ...

who do the Faiders and Fucs play???

Raiders play the Jets, Bucs have the Seahawks.

I don't think the info is right.....if we end up tied with the Bucs....head to head is the first tie-breaker.


We win that

are u sure head to head is first .... i hope your right and what u say makes sense ... but i think i remember a few years ago the same situation and we drafted behind a team we lost to ...

are u sure?

Peen...It's SOS every time...Every year...

We Win Sunday and this is all moot...But...

All considering a Loss...We get the 3 slot...

TB SOS 124-103 (TB loses Final SOS)
Cleve SOS 121-106 (Cleve loses Final SOS)

Detroit's 2 games up in SOS for #1...And it just so happens the teams they play next week are Dallas and the Jets...lol...These 2 teams are 1 game apart and play today...SOS favors Detroit...

As far as Oak is concerned...If Davis is still alive come draft day I'd bank they go Calvin Johnson at 2...And may even go Brohm...Which SCARES me cause we may just go Johnson and leave Thomas to the 4 team...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...lol...

web page

DnD is right.. SOS is the breaker

Draft positions are determined by record, the team with the worst record during the regular season picks first and so on. If two teams have the same record, the strength of schedule tie-breaker is used which is the combined winning percentage of all teams on each team's schedule for the current season. If teams are still tied after strength of schedule has been applied, the division or conference tie breakers are used. If teams are still tied after applying all tiebreakers or if two teams are tied that are in different conferences, a coin toss after the season will determnined which team gets priority

I'm just reading along, and thinking how ironic it is to see "SOS" in a thread about the Browns. Rather appropriate .... in a sick and disgusting kind of way. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Yep.. Had the same thought. Don't remind me. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

A few of you seem sure of it, and I can't say I am, so I defer to you.

Doesn't make much sense to me, but heck, lot's of things don't. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I was hoping for a victory yesterday.....................and it was such an ugly game......................man our team in hurting in major ways!

I now have pretty much given up on this squad...................we will lose next week more then likely...................many of our players have given up and that is sad for youngsters like Wimbley and Jones.

It is obvious that we need the best draft pick that we can get.............and go after an OL man................but the way Savage has talked in the past................sometimes an OL man in the top ten picks is not the best player available!

We will see how it all pans out!

Peen, it's SOS.
I was rip$#!+ when Zona took Davis ahead of us and we had lost to them during the season. It's kinda' screwey to me...but it's SOS not head to head.

Has Braylon been stellar? Nah. Has he dropped some passes? Obviously. Has he showed how incredibly immature he is? Of course.........BUT you act like the guy is Mike Williams, Reggie Williams or Troy Williamson. He has 8 drops on the season. For me, that's too many but it isn't a gross amount when you also consider he has 57 catches. Personally, I'd like to get that number down to 3-4, which IMO isn't asking all that much.

On the season he has 838 yards and 6 TD's on a team that is 23rd in the NFL in passing yards per game. He has twice as many TD catches as the next highest player (KW2 - 3), the most receiving yards, the highest YPC ( 14.2) and the second most receptions (57).

Those are just stats and I do realize he has a ways to go but if you think a guy going for 900 yards and half a dozen TD's after coming off an ACL tear doesn't make him a building block you're crazy. Go find how many guys have had 900 receiving yards in a season for the Browns the last 9-10 seasons........I bet you can count them on one hand. Are there things that he needs to change? Absolutely but you act like he has 10 catches, 170 yards and 1 TD in 1+ seasons. I know there's a lot of people who just simply don't like him but there's plenty of NFL teams that would want him.......which unfortunately can't be said for a majority of our current players. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

The latest standings.

Oakland 2 13 0
Detroit 2 13 0
Cleveland 4 11 0
Tampa Bay 4 11 0
Houston 5 10 0
Washington 5 10 0
Arizona 5 7 0

So Cleveland will draft somewhere between 3 and 7.

3 or 4 will be assured with a Cleveland loss.

If Cleveland wins.. could be anywhere from 3 to 7 as well.

I hope we lose but keep it close.

We wrap up the third pick, draft Joe Thomas in the first, depending on his 40 Michael Bush in the second if he's still there, guard in the third, and d-line in the 4th and then BPA the rest. Pickup a guard, cb and depth on both lines in FA.

There are numerous ways we could go because we have ALOT of holes to fill this off-season.

Actually, I do not think that there is much risk with Tampa picking at 4. Oakland and Arizona are the primary competition. A bit early, but these are my thoughts.

Detroit - I think this will be Brady Quinns home. The reality is that the Defense has not been very good. Call it a Harrington hangover, but Quinn would be allowed more development than Harrington becuse of his midwest roots.

Oakland. If Quinn is off the board, they I could see them going after Thomas. This team has given up 70 sacks. Brooks is inconsistent, and Walter keeps fumbling and tossing int's. But complicating things, I assume that Porter and Moss are gone, so Calvin Johnson would not be a stretch if Brohm and/or Russell don't come out.

Tampa - Last year they spent a 1 on Davin Joseph (LG) and a 2 on Jeremy Trueblood (LT). Adrian Peterson is probably not in the mix, because Cadillac Williams was drafted the year before. This is a year that the QB injury to Simms really heart Tampa. I think it would be accepted that they should have gone to Rattay rather than Gradkowski. It was mentioned about 10 times yesterday that the D is getting old.... Branch or Adams.

Cleveland .. Thomas, Peterson or Branch. That is my order. Offensively, this team is in much dire straits than defensively.

For the 5-7 teams

Houston is in a similar situation as Tampa. They spent 2 3rd round choices on OL last year (Spencer and Winston). I could imagine that Peterson would not get by the Texans.

Washington is probably going to go Defense. I think that another year with Campbell will help, but they need a bit of help on Defense. Branch or Adams, Landry or Hall.

Arizona would probably go with OL. If they don't they will probably lose a lot of thier fans, and EJ. If Az is in front of Clev, they will take Thomas.

Oakland could Draft Thomas, if they do not,
if Cleveland loses, Thomas is probably a Brown.
if Cleveland wins, it will depend on AZ's position relative to Cleveland.

just clicking...

I think I'm going to save some of these threads. I know that after the FA signing period and the draft there will be a lot of people on here predicting an 11-5 record and the Super Bowl.... Just like they did this year. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

just clicking...

But does anyone really think we are going to draft Thomas if he is on the board when we pick after signing Shaeffer last year?

I just don't think it is going to happen.

[color:"white"]Do you have any real reasons, or is it just pessimism?

Here's the facts about our line:

Andruzzi is done. There isn't a person around who says he's still a viable starter.

Coleman is a free agent and has had a terrible year. Yes, he was offered a contract, but like Ben Taylor, it's probably not a long-term contract offer designed to install him as the starter again.

Bentley won't be back for '07. We'll need to resign Fraley or find an alternative.

Tucker is 32, has missed 16 games over the last 3 years, and is coming off of emotional issues. He's visibly slowing and isn't long for this league.

Shaffer has played at a rather poor level, especially for a guy who signed the kind of contract he did. Most people feel that he isn't a long-term answer at left tackle, making him a question mark.

Now, the other guys at the top of the list are named Peterson, Quinn, Johnson, Gaines, and Branch. We don't need a WR, and I don't think that Gaines is the right guy, though we'll need an OLB. That leaves Quinn, Peterson, Branch, and Thomas. Quinn will be gone to one of the two teams who need signal callers for the future. He won't be around. I think it's painfully obvious that the reason this team sucks is because we can't stop the run, and we can't block on offense. This surely isn't a newsflash to anyone, especially Opie <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> So to me, it comes down to the NT to take over for Washington, the back that we need for the future, or the offensive lineman that we desperately need. The games I've rewatched have shown me that Ted is still playing at a pretty good level. We've stopped the run when our DE's have held their blocks, and haven't when they haven't. Yes, Peterson will be the top-rated back, but fixing this thing doesn't start with a RB. That leaves Branch or Thomas. Branch can step in right away and take over at DE. Thomas steps right in SOMEWHERE and becomes a fixture for the next decade.

So if Thomas is there, I see numerous legitimate reasons why we'd draft him.

I wanted Anderson to get hit often so that Savage would again be reminded of just how bad our line really is. I'm not happy he's hurt, but the point has been reinforced. If Thomas is there, he's our pick, or Savage should be fired. I tend to think that he's our pick <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So if you don't think we'd take Thomas, do you have a logical reason why? [/color]

That's stating the obvious. I heard people talk like that in 1999. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Just speaking for myself of course.. but I think the answer to your questions and really.. the answer to what happens FA and draft all revolves around on what Savage / Crennel think of Shaffer.

To me thats really the crucial question. Decisions become dominos after that.

I'm guessing that if they like Shaffer, we draft Branch in the first and OG in the 2nd.

If they don't.. they go Thomas in the first then Amobi Okoye in the 2nd.

I'd prefer they move Shaffer to RT and draft Thomas but what do I know? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry.. I should have been more clear when I said "If they like Shaffer" includes the possibility of moving him to RT.

[color:"white"]Merry Christmas ya punk <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You're point is spot-on. However, the decision on Shaffer will tell me whether or not they really understand just how bad our line is. I know, I know, they know more than I do, and I'm just a fan on the board <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You won't be the one to say that, but many others would. I think it's painfully obvious that Shaffer isn't a long-term guy at LT. I think they should see the same problems that I do. Hell, when Vers and I agree on things, the odds that we're both wrong are usually very, very remote. We both agree that Shaffer isn't part of the answer, and that he probably belongs at another position. In fact, don't we have a Savage quote somewhere recently that says something about Shaffer being the left tackle for now? I remember seeing it, and that's an admission that he isn't the long-term solution in their eyes. That's what leads me back to Thomas.

Let's take it a step further. Let's curse the possibility that they feel comfortable with Shaffer out there. What of Tucker? They can't possibly be sitting there thinking "Ok, if he gets past this, he'll be just fine at RT." He's been breaking down for a few years now, and the mental problems he's facing are a terrible red flag when you're investing millions into a player who's nearing the end. I've been fortunate enough to have seen Thomas play in at least 4 games this year and possibly as many as 6, and I haven't seen many games this year. For some reason, Wisconsin has made it to my cable list so often I feel like I know Thomas as well as I've known any player. I don't see how he'd be a bad right tackle.

I know I'm rambling here, but our needs on both lines are so bad that I think it's a better investment to get the franchise tackle than it is to get a DE/NT, simply because it's easier to find DE's who can eat blocks than it is to find that premier tackle.

Having said all that, if we have a solution in place and take Branch, I won't complain. He solves an immediate need at DE and fills the NT need after next year. Still, if people break it down to the simplest of equations and says who's the BPA that also fits a need at the 3-hole, the guy is, as of right now, Thomas. [/color]

Same back to ya.. ya stupid smurf. <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Understand, I am not advocating here.. I'm just trying to use logic and keep my personal feelings out of it.

As far as those go.. I've hashed this out with my kid (much brighter than 3/4 of the posters) and we both agree the smartest option is going to be locking down the left side for the next decade and that would mean Joe Thomas.

Again, one of the biggest decisions becomes whether or not Shaffer can be moved. 2nd round pick becomes predicated because we will need to get the NT at that point. Hence my opinion that much, if not all these decisions revolve around the FO's opinion of Shaffer.

All of this would mean in FA we chase an OG, a CB and possibly a RB.

I think a smart man would play the odds and gamble that LCB and Tucker will not return. The house would favor those odds.

Right now, after 2 bad, really bad seasons, the natives are getting a bit restless. PS cant really look 3 years down the road, because he won't be here unless there is some impovement next year.

Thus, the only logical moves are Thomas, Branch or Peterson. The defense, although not the best, is better than the offense which is prutrid. The Browns are almost in Oakland territory. Worse than the Bucs after they figured out that Rattay was an upgrade over Gradkowski.

If you look at the number of sacks given up... Oakland, Detroit, and Cleveland are at the bottom of the barrel. Most playoff teams are in the 15-30 range for the season. Interestingly enough, The same teams .. with AZ and TB are at the bottom of rushing, even though there are some quality backs. EJ, Caddilac, Jones, Jordan. We can discuss Droughns, but he is probably a notch below those backs. The inability of these teams to run, may be partially attributed to the game situation, but with the Browns, it has been pretty evident that they are challeged running the ball, and they give up way too many sacks.

The only real question is does the new blood come from the Draft or FA. It is too soon to tell, but results such as last year with LCB going down and Schaffer only being accpetable is not the type of movement that the Browns expected. And I don't have the tea leaves on Smith, Matua and Sowells to give me confidence that the future is there.

I can only say that the future probably does not have Andruzzi, Coleman, Tucker, N. Dorsey and Butler penciled in for next years starters. I would expect 2 new players and possibly more if LCB does not heal in time for the season.

So Thomas is the most rational choice, Peterson can be explained, and Branch addresses a need. It really is that simple.

[color:"white"]I can't begin to guess the 2nd rounder at this point. As you pointed out, the selection of Thomas depends on the opinion of Shaffer (though I think that cat has left the bag), so the 2nd selection depends on the first, and I'm allready dizzy <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't know how you feel about Shaffer. I'm sure you've said at some point, but I can't recall your stance. When we signed him I said I viewed him as a stop-gap who's really a right tackle-in-waiting for when Tucker hangs it up. Now that we've seen him for a year, my opinion is still the same on the move, though I don't view him as being nearly powerful enough to be a really good right tackle. I now believe that a move to RT can only salvage the value of the contract, nothing more. Eo felt that he could be a guard, but I don't see enough power there to take on the Ngata's and Hampton's of the world. The fact that we've both thought he was destined to be moved before Savage even touched on the subject is telling, hehe.

Now you mentioned Okoye. I'm REALLY sketchy when it comes to drafting a 19-year old kid, no matter how talented or prodigal he is, but that could be an unrationalized fear, as I've never seen him interviewed. The reports say he's very mature for his age, and i'm aware of his advanced academics.[/color]

Okoye will not go within the first 20 picks. At 19, there is too much risk involved. Dispite his natural ability, a team would have to be willing to let him develop for a year or 2. Too much risk for a struggling team.

I did not mention drafting Okoye in the first. Believe me, If we got Thomas in the first and Branch was still available to us in the 2nd, I'd forget Okoye was even alive and let go and walk away from him so fast even if I was holding his hand and keeping him from falling down the cliff into the fire of Mount Doom.

[color:"white"]Sounds like a perfect guy for the Pats, doesn't he.

Since this is thread is essentially about draft picks, we're locked into the top 7 or 8 no matter what happens. So, thanks to NFLDraftCountdown, here's their top 8 guys, which are pretty much identical to most of the other sites I've looked at. This mock is dated back to the 6th, but the needs haven't changed for these bad teams, hehe.......

Lions: Quinn:
Nobody thought the Lions were going to be a great team this year but they have too much talent to be this bad. There is plenty of blame to go around but one big problem has been Jon Kitna because even though he is having a solid season in terms of his passing numbers he's also been one of the worst in the league when it comes to turnovers. A prototypical quarterback with everything you look for in terms of both physical tools and intangibles, Quinn has also been tutored by quarterback guru Charlie Weis and you absolutely cannot underestimate the importance of that pedigree. Kitna is the short-term solution but they need a guy like Quinn long-term.

Scouting report:
Strengths:
Has prototypical size...Hard worker and a leader with elite intangibles...Smart and does not make many mistakes with the ball...Very strong and does not go down easily...Arm strength is excellent...Is mechanically and technically sound...A good athlete who can move in the pocket and scramble a bit...Has a lot of experience against top-notch competition...Knows how to read a defense and has been well schooled in a pro-style offense by a noted quarterback guru...Is very tough and durable and has never missed any action despite taking quite a beating at times during his career...A clutch player who has come through big in tough situations and plays his best when the game is on the line...Is accustomed to the spotlight.

Weaknesses:
His accuracy tends to get spotty at times...Will struggle under pressure like most quarterbacks...Some are concerned he may be a product of Weis' system since he didn't really emerge until his junior year...Despite the big numbers he didn't have quite the senior year some were expecting due in large part to his offensive line.

Notes:
Charlie Weis, who helped transform Tom Brady from a 6th round pick into a future Hall of Famer, absolutely raves about Quinn and you just can't underestimate the value of having that kind of stamp of approval...A prolific passer who basically re-wrote the Irish record books...The total package who has everything you look for in a signal caller...A potential franchise quarterback in the mold of Carson Palmer.

Raiders: Calvin Johnson:
It wasn't long ago that wide receiver was the deepest position on the Oakland roster but Doug Gabriel is gone, Jerry Porter clearly has one foot out the door and I wouldn't put any money on Randy Moss being around much longer either. The o-line is a major concern for the Raiders and they could probably use a top quarterback as well but in the end they simply opt for the best player available in Johnson. Calvin Johnson is really the total package, with a blend of size, speed, hands and body control that you rarely, if ever, see and he is the definition of an elite prospect. He is simply the best wideout prospect in years and perhaps the best player in this draft.

Report:
No report, though they say he's 6'5, 235, and runs a 4.45.

Cardinals: Joe Thomas:
When it comes to mock drafts there aren't many no-brainers that are more obvious than this. To say that the Cardinals are desperate for offensive line help would be an understatement and since they are already set at quarterback, running back and wide receiver the other top rated players in this draft (Brady Quinn, Adrian Peterson and Calvin Johnson) are essentially eliminated from contention, leaving Thomas as the obvious choice. Arizona probably isn't that far away from playoff contention and the offensive line is what's really holding them back so if they are able to add a stud up front to solidify that group they could very easily take that next step in a hurry.

Report:
Strengths:
An excellent athlete for the position...Has outstanding feet...Great size with long arms...Very mobile and agile...Displays great balance and gets set quickly...Able to pull, slide and block in space...Still has the frame to bulk up and add some more weight...Technically sound, instinctive and very smart with top intangibles...Rare prospect who can legitimately play the crucial left tackle position at the pro level.

Weaknesses:
Is only one year removed from a major knee injury...Is not always as aggressive as you'd prefer and could show more of a killer instinct...Needs to get stronger, especially in the lower-body, and develop physically...Struggles a bit with power and the bull rush...Tends to play with a narrow base at times...Is still learning the position to a degree after playing tight end and defensive end early in his career.

Notes:
Was also an excellent shot-putter for the Badger track and field team...Almost came out last year as a junior after he was told that he'd be a Top 10-15 overall pick by the NFL's underclassmen advisory panel but then he tore the ACL in his right knee while playing defensive end in the Badgers bowl game...Is not as good of a pass blocker as D'Brickashaw Ferguson was last year (very few are) but he might be a better all-around player...Will be one of the elite prospects available.

Bucs: Gaines Adams:

It looks like the glory days of Tampa Bay's defense are coming to an end and it appears that Simeon Rice will be the next to follow guys like John Lynch, Warren Sapp and Booger McFarland out the door. When the season started Quentin Moses was widely considered to be the top senior defensive end prospect in the country but while he has struggled Gaines Adams has been outstanding and as a result it looks like he could very well be the first player off the board at his position next April. An excellent athlete who could even play outside linebacker in a 3-4 scheme, Adams is a premier pass rusher due to his quickness and pure speed off the edge.

Report:
Strengths:
An outstanding athlete...Extremely quick and agile with very good speed...Has a tremendous first step and a great burst to close...Has very long arms and uses his hands well...Has the frame to get bigger and develop physically...Looks fluid when dropping into coverage...A terror in opponents backfields and just seems to have a knack for getting to the quarterback...Productive and disruptive...Versatile and also has the ability to play outside linebacker for a 3-4 team at the pro level.

Weaknesses:
Does not have the ideal bulk you look for and needs to add some weight...Does not play the run nearly as well as he does the pass...Needs to get stronger...Can play with better pad level and leverage...Struggles when blockers are able to lock on...Might be a bit of a DE / OLB 'tweener...Becomes somewhat one-dimensional at times...Will get overly aggressive and run himself out of plays...Intelligence?

Notes:
Played eight-man football in high school and then spent a year at Fork Union Prep before coming to Clemson and redshirting in 2002...Seriously considered coming out after his junior season but was given a very conservative grade by the NFL's underclassmen advisory panel and chose to go back to school...Has been as good as any defensive end in the nation the past two years...Top natural pass rusher.

Packers: Leon Hall:
This team has so many needs it's really hard to know where to begin but one area that has been of particular concern is the secondary. Even though Leon Hall is a cornerback he could potentially play safety as well, which is the Packers greatest need, and drafting him would also give Green Bay the option of moving Charles Woodson to safety. Hall is the next great Wolverine defensive back and not only is he a productive coverman but he is also very physical and not afraid to come up and help support the run. He isn't in the same class as Champ Bailey as a prospect but Hall is the top defensive back available this year and would address their top need.

Report:
5'11 194, 4:45

Redskins: Branch:
The interior of the Redskins defensive line is in such shambles that they've been forced to start Kedric Golston, a rookie 6th round pick, alongside Cornelius Griffin. Needless to say an infusion of talent in the middle sure wouldn't hurt and to land the top defensive tackle on the board here would be a coup. A massive presence at 6-6 and 331 lbs., Alan Branch is a great all-around player who will remind you of John Henderson and he could be the impact defensive lineman the Redskins have been searching for. Only a junior, Branch has emerged as one of the best prospects in the college game this year and will go very high should he decide to go pro early.


7. HOUSTON TEXANS
SAM BAKER OT | USC | Scouting Report
This franchise has literally been looking for a left tackle since day one when they rolled the dice on an injured Tony Boselli in the expansion draft. Despite numerous attempts to find a long-term solution the position is still a major problem and while they were hoping Charles Spencer might be the answer he has missed most of his rookie season with an injury and is probably better suited for right tackle or guard at the pro level. Arguably the best player on what have been some very talented Trojan offensive lines, Baker is the premier left tackle prospect in the junior class and he would more than likely be a very high pick should he opt to enter the draft.


8. CLEVELAND BROWNS
ADRIAN PETERSON RB | Oklahoma | Scouting Report
In recent years the Browns have invested a number of premium draft picks on playmakers at tight end, wide receiver and quarterback but one skill position that is still a concern is running back, where Reuben Droughns is solid but certainly nothing special. Adrian Peterson has a tremendous blend of size, speed and power and he may end up being the best prospect we've seen at the position in quite a while. The only question with Peterson, who's been compared to Hall of Famer Eric Dickerson, is durability but his injuries have been relatively minor for the most part and he is just such a rare talent that most teams will be than willing to overlook that factor.


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