DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer

Hue Jackson says Browns can lean on his expertise in QB search

“So I came here to coach that position and get it better, and I plan on doing that. So that has nothing to do with it. I’m going to take my expertise — I’ve been doing this for a long time — and put a quarterback on this football team that can win. That’s my job. We’re going to do it collectively as a group. But hopefully we’re going to lean on my expertise and what I need at that position to win.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...e-in-qb-search/

Question: My guess is, if you try to correct everything you could possibly end up having a qb that's doing to much thinking about mechanics. Is that possible?

If so, you work on 1 or 2 things first, right? How long could/would it take to correct something to the point of the qb, kizer, not having to think about it, and then being able to move on to something else?

Yeah, no doubt. It's kinda like the old paralysis by analysis saying.

And I don't think Kizer's mechanics are that bad. He does a lot of good things. I also think that his issues are fixable provided he is a willing learner.

I don't know about his mental make-up and if there are issues, but I think Hue will fix his physical mechanics.

Success breeds confidence.

When things go bad is when you see guys going back to "what they know" because "what you said" isn't working...

And then everything falls apart.

Yeah......all of us weekend golfers know that to be true. LOL

I've said it a few different places, but a QB's motion, release, footwork, etc remind me a lot of a basketball shot (which I know more about).

Footwork must be sound, follow through must be good, motion must be concise, and consistency trumps all.

Hmmmmm..........I think the mechanics of throwing a football are more similar than those used in hitting a baseball than in throwing a baseball.

Edit:

LOL.......y'all probably think I lost my mind. I better explain what I meant.

I was simply referring to the stride, the weight distribution, the opening of the hips, the finished position of the chest, and the transfer of how the power is generated.

as with anything of this nature, you have to practice the good habits and you have to practice them until muscle memory takes root and it becomes your new default where you don't have to think about how you're doing it -- you just do it that way.

With a lot of things in the body, a person ends up doing things a certain way due to a limitation somewhere. It could be a lack of flexibility/mobility in a joint or whatever, but it sets up a chain of compensations that affects everything else.

Example: A tight hip flexor causes the hips to roll which induces a little lower back pain which causes the upper torso to lean forward, which prevents the passer from opening their shoulders and fully rotating when beginning their throw, which reduces the range available to them for their follow through and thus causes a "weak arm".... and this is how the person has always been, so it is perceived as who they are.

If you remove the limiters and then ingrain a new way of moving, however, then you remove the tendency to fallback to old patterns simply by way of giving the body an improved way of getting where you want it to go.

I am certainly no guru on this subject, but what you said there makes sense to me and is likely why guys like Rivers, Kosar, and others never really messed with their throwing motion.

I suppose if a guy gets his footwork down and he is still a mess, then you go on to the throwing motion.

I've enjoyed reading the various explanations as to how guys get to this point yet still have bad footwork. It's mind-boggling to me. I was a decent amateur athlete - nothing more - and I paid attention to my footwork. I taught my son to work on his footwork. It takes work, but it's not that hard. But the explanations I'm reading make sense.

This article makes me want to send Kizer to McCarthy's QB school. Immediately.

Real quick. I agree there are several ways to throw a football. And like Vers said it doesn't have to be a wholesale change of his mechanics. He doesn't have to have his back leg glued into the ground every throw.

He could stand to tighten up his throwing mechanics as a whole. More compact, less 'sloppy' and more consistent and repeatable. But in and of itself I don't see his back foot coming off of the ground a flaring out needs to be completely overhauled. Perhaps reigned in a bit....

Take a look at the guy below and how often he lifts his back leg off the ground.

I think that Kizer needs to understand and trust what he sees.

I think that it is, in many ways, that simple.

Watching the bad clips, it sees like he loses the plot on some plays.

I don't know if it was him being uncomfortable with the plays, or the players .....or maybe being berated by the coach ..... who knows. However, I think that it's something inside his head as much as anything physical.

I a reminded of that VR tool that some schools are using. Man, I think that this kind of thing would definitely benefit Kizer. Let him see defenses over and over again, all different alignments, different schemes, and learn how to handle those. It might get him more comfortable, so that his brain doesn't overrule his talent.

I think that his brain fights his body all too often, and he'll never win doing that.

My main concern with him is how he "sees" the field. Some of his INTs are real head scratchers. I don't know if it's a healthy trust in his ability to fit into tight windows, or if the problem lies with him just not seeing the defender near his receiver. I obviously would prefer the former over the latter.

When looking the part just isn't enough.

I was ready to bet darn near anything that Quinn was going to be our savior. Don't think he got a fair deal, but that happens when coaches get fired every other year.

I was just making a point. That while yeah. Quinn was always "in shape" I kind of felt his mass hurt him as a QB. Flexibility and rotation wise.

"Now I'm done"

I may be wrong, as I'm the furthest thing from a QB guru...

But I think, in Kizer's case, it'll be less of a "tear it all down and build it up again" thing, and more of a spot fix. The story on Kizer is that he's really inconsistent. He'll be great right up until he throws an awful pass, makes a terrible decision, etc. To me, the solution to something like that is a hard look into what he's doing, and the result of that, and identifying which thing(s) causes those 'wtf' moments, and addressing those.

I've read the almost annual articles about Tom Brady working on his throwing mechanics, working on this, working on that. A QB's throwing is never 'done'. He's always working on stuff and improving stuff. In Kizer's case, the trick will be identifying what habits he has that cause those 'Bad Kizer' moments, and eliminating those to get him to a level where he can step out onto an NFL field on Sunday.

Exactly.
He had upper body physique and looked the part, but that's about it because he had other limiters.

From what I remember, he got here, and he was inaccurate.

I was surprised when I saw it, but Quinn didn't have a very good arm.

Here is a pre camp workout throw for Kizer. Looks like his base is signficantly smaller.

https://twitter.com/clevezirm/status/861658292816424960

Interesting. Zero right leg kick.

All sports start with the feet, except maybe golf. That starts with the hands and grip.

I don't think you're going to find any QB that lifts there back leg during practice or non-game throwing sessions. But you will see a lot of QBs do it during game situations.

I think the 'leg kick' happens in instances where the QB needs to generate velocity without being in proper throwing rhythm. Its almost like they're generating velocity from a standstill and the torque they generate pulls the back leg off the ground. As opposed to being in rhythm via 3-5-7 step drop and transferring the weight to the front leg via the timing of the throw.

Kizer doesn't need a QB coach, he needs to take latin dance class learn to move his feet and hips.

j/c:

This has been an awesome thread and so many people have made great points. Thanks guys!!!!

I love how so many have asked questions. Shows they are truly interested in learning.

I like how others have brought their own expertise to the table, like Purp did about what different body parts are responsible for, tab talking about how it starts w/the feet, KWhip w/the earlier analysis about throwing the ball and golf comparison, ed w/his visual evidence of certain plays along w/an explanation, and how others have made comparisons to other sports. It's freaking educational and a lot of what I read from you guys makes me think of new things to add or to research.

A few guys like guarddawg and ober have said they aren't experts, but have made great points. I don't think anyone is an expert. We're just guys talking football. In fact, I think both of those guys have a very good base knowledge of the game. Speak up and don't be shy.

I gotta share something w/you guys. I was going to leave the board. I checked out some other boards, but man, the posters were so damn ignorant! Intolerable. We have a lot of intelligent posters on this board. It's by far the best Brown's board out there. I hope to see more threads like this.

I've enjoyed reading all the comments. I've looked at some of game tape but like others I have no experience breaking down a QB's throwing mechanics.

Question - it seems like the "talent" is there, and that the break down in mechanics leads to inconsistent accuracy. Is it repetition and muscle memory? Or is it mental. Or both.

How much change is needed to create enough accuracy to be a solid NFL QB ? 10% 50% ? 80% ?

I will be honest. I have a lot of doubts as to his ability to ever become consistent in his lower body mechanics. I wouldn't have taken him at 52 because of that opinion. Potential is there for greatness but there is no rhyme nor reason why he does the things with his body that he is doing when he throws the football.

Good questions. One thing before I start to try and answer.......it's obvious you are very intelligent. Watch the videos and read the articles. You'll pick it up real quick. Guaranteed.

Now, to your questions:



I think it is because he has so much natural talent that he was permitted to get away w/a couple of bad mechanical habits. And again, he does a lot of really good things mechanically. I have to watch more, but I really think his wide base [a small issue], his left foot stepping way too far out to the left on throws to the left [huge issue] and the dramatic right leg kick [that KWhip says has already looks to be fixed] are his issues. None of them are huge deals. They can be fixed if he is a willing learner. And we have a great teacher in Hue.



I do not know the answer to this question. I need to reread Diam's post about his mental stuff and do some more research, but I think it's going to be a wait and see. I hate not being conclusive, but I don't wanna make crap up. We are just going to have to see how he develops. Sorry.



I can't put a percentage on it, but physically speaking........I do not see his issues as significant and I think they can be fixed. Again.....if he is a willing learner.

I wish I could give more definitive answers, but I really just don't know the answers to those very good questions.

Mourg.............I used to work w/qbs. I think his mechanical issues are fixable. Hell, I think I could fix them and Hue is way smarter than I am.

Now, if it is a mental thing..........that's another story. We just don't know the answer to that one yet.

It seems like he will sometimes get pressured, and move effectively to avoid the pressure ..... but then lose where he is as far as his reads on the field. He panics, "just getting rid of the ball", even when it's nor necessary, and sometimes into about the worst spot.

He really needs to study and learn the offense, so he knows where to go with the ball in every circumstance. Then, when he is under pressure, whether real or perceived, he can understand what to do, and what not to do, with the ball.

For me I haven't done enough film study to pinpoint mechanics as 'thee' reason for his inconsistent accuracy. I mean of course in a sense mechanics always play a role in accuracy. For me the bigger question is what was the cause of the mechanical breakdown? Why isn't he more consistent mechanically?

Repetition builds that muscle memory but there is also a situational experience factor that also plays a role in building the muscle memory. Its not enough to do it in practice alone you still need game reps. And this is where the school of thought that say 'let the young QBs play, learn and grow' comes from.

And there is certainly a mental aspect and imho even important coaching aspects that have huge impacts on QB improvement.

This is a tough question to answer because depending on system and talent alone the exact same QB without any changes to their game can have a jump in completion % and a corresponding jump/decline in the perception of the their accuracy.

1:24s

Play action. Skinny Post from (r) slot.

This is an example of good DeShone. Hits the receiver in stride with velocity and placement to beat the dropping LB and keep the receiver from being blown up.

Awesome! Nice play action, stands tall in the pocket, good balance, nice step w/the front foot, excellent follow through while making the read quick.

Hey ed..........I know it's early..........but, have you noticed that Kizer's mechanics are much better when he is throwing to the right or to receivers who are running from the right side and how his mechanics suffer when both are from the left?

It's pretty amazing!!!!

I haven't noticed that...yet. I've posted up to the 1:26 mark (I've charted most of the game). But of the posted throws he's missed 2 (13s, 44s) to the right and hit 1 to the left (TD 17s) and hit this current pass middle of field coming from the right.

Okay..........keep it in the back of your mind and let me know what you see.

Btw---------I've watched several tapes of games, including the USC game. Watch for it............and it's one of the main reasons why I think Hue can fix this problem........and again, if Kizer is a willing learner.

Without question this has been the best thread I've participated in on this board in a very long time. There's been differences of opinion without defensiveness. We should try to keep this vibe going as much as possible.

About the INTs, nobody likes them but I don't think his problem has been as severe as Watson's. Kiszer was 26 to 9, TD to INT ratio in '16. He was 21-10 in '15. Watson threw 17 INTs this past season alone. With that said they are a concern. My opinion is they are more a combination of improper progression and field vision than just mental lapses. Film study and working closely with the QB coach on his post-snap reads should affect this for the good. Supposedly there is some sort of virtual OB app that might help him see more the the field at once. He'll have to put in the work tho.

I don't believe the INTs are the main concern, (at least for me) it's more about the inconsistency (sailing balls and balls thrown into the dirt) to wide open receivers. The INTs (some of them anyway) are often confusing because they seem to be obvious "no throws". Hopefully coaching and work on his mechanics can help improve both issues.

Yeah, good point.