DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Front Office...continued

To complex to post, but here is the link...

http://mgoblog.com/diaries/round-and-longevity-another-look-nfl-career-length

I feel that the key to retaining our own FA's is to lock them up prior to the last year of their contract. As they did with Bitonio. This being said, They were behind the 8 ball with Schwartz, and Pryor was on a one year deal, so there is that.

As far as FA's previous regimes had let walk, the top 2 would be Sheard and Ward. They are two solid players that have each contributed to Super Bowl winning teams. Previous FO btw.
To a lesser extent, players who are solid that should still have a role on the team but may not be full time starters, Skreene, Gipson and Gabriel. I will say that Gabriel benefitted from the offense he played in and probably would not have had the number of plays he made last season on a team such as the Browns.

That being said, if the Browns can lock up Kirksey prior to him becoming a FA, I feel the FO is doing there job. I feel they should do the same with Duke and Crowell as well. If not both then at least one of them.

For what it is worth. I have seen many posts saying that the Browns would have been better with Schwartz, and that it was unfortunate that he left, but most of these people acknowledge that the FO did their part to bring him back. The same can be said for Pryor. I don't understand the bashing of the FO when this is clearly what happened. Once again, it is unfortunate but it is a business and those two players chose to walk away from above market contracts that were offered by the FO. Therefore it is time to move on and next guy up.

Haters gonna hate bottom line.

I wasn't attempting to make your point at all Wyo,, Just decided that since you asked, I'd check.

That's what I found. Essentially, outside of Mack and Gabrial, nobody was outstanding.

Nearest to it was probably Sheard. He's still a pretty good player. Not a ProBowler....

That 2nd round including Robiskie, Veikune and Massaquoi (sp) still makes me...ah...meh.We can all second guess, hindsight is always 20/20. I've started looking back at drafts and it is amazing how many teams - not just us - flame out. It's also intriguing when you see latter round picks become good players. It proves that it's a complete crap shoot and you need to ensure that a couple stick and you retain those guys. If a guy was guaranteed to be good he wouldn't have lasted till the 3rd or 6th round. Analytics has its part in removing the subjectivity to a degree.

As of right now, four of those players have actually met expectations with the contract money they received in FA.

TJ Ward would not have helped us win a Superbowl. Same with Ahtyba Rubin. I loved Buster as a player and a person, BUT he would not have helped us either. Gibson, not worth the money. Benjamin not worth HALF the money, Pryor was not worth 15 million a year, and the dumb ass wouldn't sign for less. Mack wanted out of Cleveland for a chance at a title and for nice weather. Sheard and Schwartz were bad moves or mistakes by the Browns front office

That's a weird comment to make about a starter on a super bowl winning team.

Not really. We would have sucked with or without him. We just don't have the overall talent.

Can't blame those guys for the QBs failures. If we didn't hit the Brandon Weeden to Johnny Manziel wall then I think those teams were good enough to be in the playoffs.

Not really. Denver has more pieces on D then we do. He was one piece in a really good D. I think GM means that Ward really wouldn't be that much help on the D we had at least last year.
Now this year we need a cover safety more than a hard hitting guy like Ward. I agree with GM, Ward wouldn't have help that much.

There's just so much wrong with this. I know QB is an issue, but our O needs more help than just a QB. Not to mention our D. Back in the Weeden and Manziel yrs. Our D was really Bad and some how Horton made it worse

We have not had a total team that was good enough to be in the playoffs since 1989

So why let Ward walk? You don't let good players walk just because the team isn't complete. All you've done is make it more incomplete. Ward was a stud. But because of constant FO turnover, he was not made a priority.

We let Ward walk because we signed Donte Whitner.

Yup, when coaching staffs change, coaches often prefer players they've coached before or that they view as more fitting to their style.

For whatever reason, Pettine was more favorable toward Whitner than Ward.

Maybe he wasn't that familiar with Ward, maybe he wanted something that he thought Whitner brought that Ward didn't.

Can't say I agree with his decision of course, but it is what it is

I think the idea was, that the dropoff in abilities (at the time) was mitigated by the "presence" that Whitner brought to the locker room.

As soon as he came here he became a "leader" type. He was the poster boy for the new uniforms. He's from here. Etc.

Could Ward eventually of become that? I guess. He always seemed somewhat low key to me. Just my opinion.

Is there a chance, that by now, we'd be talking about replacing Ward anyways? I think so.

Would Hooker and Ward had made a nice pair? Yep.

/rambling

Oh, I absolutely agree.

Some good his "leadership" did though.......... His play his first year was okay, and then from there it went down the tubes. We already had Dansby signed at this point, he was the leader we needed (and had).

Whitner comes here, brings something similar to Ward playing-wise for one season, Ward goes to Denver and is part of a Superbowl Defense, lol

I have always thought Ward was vastly overrated.

lol, that right there is our endless battle. Donte "Hitner" vs TJ "Boss" Ward and the decision by the FO to replace Ward with Whitner

Ward...low-key?

That's not how I remember it. I remember lots of "swagger" with him and Haden.

Peppers seems in a similar mold. Hopefully he can play as well for us, if not better. I look forward to seeing better energy out there between him and Williams.

Yeah, I wouldn't call Ward low key. But that doesn't mean that he would be a leader in the locker room or whatever

I wasn't talking about Whit. I think they were very similar players on the field. Whit was better as a leader. His skill set fell off quite a bit, though.

I was just talking about Ward. He can't cover. I don't like dbs who can't cover. He makes some highlight plays that get fans and media types to say oooohhhh and ahhhhhh, but he still can't cover. LOL

Also, he made some big hits, but his hips are so stiff that he is one of the worst open field tacklers in the NFL. He also has an annoying habit of ducking his head and diving at the ankles when the offensive player can actually see him coming and he can't unload on a guy who can't see him.

He needs to be w/a team that has a great pass rush and three other quality DBs that can cover to mask his weaknesses so he can roam around and make big plays. There aren't too many of those teams around.

Oh, he definitely has weaknesses but plenty of players do.

My quick questions to you is, would you rather have TJ Ward or any of.........

Robert Griffith, Sean Jones, Brodney Pool, Donte Whitner, Ibraheim Campbell/Derrick Kindred? That's about all the SS's I can think of that played on this team.

Probably Ward.

I get why the Browns didn't re-sign him and brought Whit in. I believe Ward was one of the guys they thought who was adversely affecting the culture in the locker room. You could see it late in the season, especially in the Bengal game where they blew the lead and ended up quitting on Chud and his staff.

Whit was a very similar player at the time, but was more of a positive type leader than Ward. The problem is that while Whit played okay in his first year here, his physical skills really diminished rapidly. Thus, I have to choose Ward over him. But again, I can see why the FO made that move.

Now look.........I get that most people on this board love Ward and people aren't going to agree w/my take. That's why I try to not respond when people bring him up. However, I can't help myself when there are several posts talking about how good he is/was. I just disagree, but I look at some things differently than other posters in terms of what is happening on the field of play.

I liked the Russell / Jones tandem the most, they were not outstanding, but I think they were the best we had so far.

TJ Ward (like IMHO Peppers) was a better than average player, but with so many fundamental flaws in his game that he could never be a good strong safety in Cleveland with the new rules.

Both are IMHO, undersized ILB's with game instinct problems, so in order for them to performe you must have someone on D making sure they get the plays right.

Just for some insight on my opinion, I hate players that hit instead of tackling...

This is true, I do remember this. One of those background things that we don't get the full news on, but definitely could be truth there.

Oh good Lord!

Yeah.

Sashi really sucked as the Browns GM in 2012.

Why on god's green earth are we talking about Ward?

Ancient history and a different regime.

shruggs .. who knows

Gotta agree w/you on this one.

Because this is a message board about the Cleveland Browns and past players, coaches, and FO personnel get brought up all the time. I don't see anything wrong with it and wouldn't ever suggest trying to censor anyone wanting to bring someone up no matter how much I may disagree with the argument.

I am not trying to censor anyone. I am questioning the consistent theme of continuously discussing players who weren't resigned (by different regimes) and saying the FO sucks.

Does anyone want to offer an opinion that there is a front office and an organization in the NFL that has not also failed to resign a player from their team, that the team drafted, and the team was theoretically weaker for that player leaving. I have to believe if you take the 17 year span since 1999 (which is what seems to be fair game for discussion) that every single team has been through similar..... to me it seems entirely like nit picking and Browns bashing to be looking at Ward and critiquing the FO that wasn't just a different regime - it was a different owner ..... If fans are not encouraged by Sashi and this FO's management of draft collateral and FA management - Hue Jackson and the direction of the roster, I don't honestly know what to suggest. Are they perfect? Hell no. As much as I like Hue Jackson I have seen some horrendous game management mistakes. I don't agree with some of the FA moves, as much as I am stoked about seeing Njoku play - I wanted Hooker and would probably not have made the trade. But I am a realist. I don't judge the FO or the draft based on whether I liked the players they picked. I don't expect the organization to be perfect. I expect mistakes and I expect circumstances like those that led to Pryor not resigning. I expect some of last years draft picks not to come through. I expect some of this draft picks to be busts - heck, statistically speaking there has to be at least a 60%-75% probability that one of Njoku, Peppers or Garrett will be a total bust. I'll hate it if that happens but I'll know that it's more likely to happen than not to happen !! It's called reality.

And while others are free to discuss what they want - I think I am free to question the motive or rationale for the discussion. I'd prefer to focus on the recent past and even more so on the future.

Commence my rambling that will incorporate (slightly) what you wanted addressed.....

RE: Organizations and re-signing players
Organizations lose their FAs all the time. It simply isn't a static measure of paying them or letting them walk. I think too many people think in that bubble-- sorry to those who take offense but it's rather abundant on here. If the Cleveland Browns ever get to a point where (1) they find a franchise QB worth keeping and (2) are a successful team and as a byproduct of that success they have many good players, it is inevitable that players will leave this team because you cannot afford them all and need to make tough decisions. Tough decisions will be a welcomed change of pace as far as I'm concerned. Also, understanding the NFL market and what players will command based on position and trends should also be something to try and predict. I think the FO has done very well predicting the market when trying to keep their own guys.

Another issue I think people overlook here is determining if the juice is worth the squeeze for what someone is getting on the open market. Skrine was not worth his contract yet people complained because we let him go. Financially, its seems like that was the right decision. Gipson and Benjamin (just after one year) don't look like they are worth their contracts either. Sheard was worth the contract.... Ward was. Schwartz, IMO, was as well. So for a poster to list off 9 players that were on our team as the main reason to bash a FO (a front office mind you that only dealt with a few of those) is short-sided to say the very least. It isn't simply a matter of keeping our own guys just because they're our own guys. Yes, fundamentally, that should be the goal when you have elite players worth investing in, but I think having some financial responsibility (no matter how much cap space we have) needs to be part of the equation, and again, think there are quite a few people don't take that thought process into account. That's fine. For me, that one's of the biggest things I enjoy about the NFL--- free agency and financial considerations when it comes to decision making and long-term sustainability. The biggest lingering issue for this team has not been the inability to keep players, it's been poor drafting and constant regime changes. That right there gives little time for new regimes to plan for an upcoming draft when they're hired in January and the short amount of time to keep good players going into the final year of their deals. That's a recipe for disaster.

RE: Hue Jackson
I don't want him fired and I think he is a good coach. However, I agree with you that he made some very noticeable coaching mistakes last year. I still think he provides great leadership and I think the players enjoy playing for him. To me that is huge and I expect, through experience as a HC, he'll perform better managing a game. What I don't want from Hue is any legitimate control on personnel moves. I think evidence of the QB situation last year is indicative of my concern as he was tied to wanting Kaepernick, RG3, Jared Goff, and said "trust me" on Kessler. That's not an impressive list when looking for a starting calibur QB....at all.

RE: Front Office
I agree with your overall optimism of the FO as well as your determination that they haven't been perfect. Schwartz was debacle. Not being able to turn around Osweiler like it was reported they wanted to do has clearly not worked out. But fundamentally, they seem to be building something that I think illustrates to everyone what the organizational plan and strategy is. People have said they don't understand the plan and I can't help but chuckle but it's abundantly clear what they've tried to do over the past two offseasons. But like every regime, they need to execute that plan and hit on draft picks.