DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer

A lot has been said about Kizer's mechanics.

What about his ability to read the field? Pre and post snap?

We can fix his hips and keep his leg down all day, but if he can't read a defense it doesn't matter...

Edit: I'm actually asking for opinions of Kizers ability to do this, not trying to say he can't. I just reread my post...

Good questions.

I have been evaluating his entire game as I looked at the vids.

It's too early for me to say for sure, but here are my early impressions regarding your questions:

Presnap reads: Pretty good. Even reading the articles, you see where a couple of the authors talk about him making the right pre-snap read.

Post-snap read: This appears to be an issue. That throw against USC that was a pick 6 blows my mind. Again, too early to say for sure. I gotta watch more.

Hey fellas, I only went back through page 5. haven't read page 4 yet.

question. Are we talking about fixing Kizers mechanics and post snap reads in this off season so he starts game one? or just the things he needs to work on to be a better QB and start some time down the road?

just curious

You're reading the thread from last post back to first post? LOL...that's different.

I don't think anyone who is evaluating his mechanical and or reads is really saying when he should start. I think we are just evaluating him as a qb.........and that might help give us an idea of when/if he is a viable starting qb.

lol yea I know. it's called lazy reading lol

but yea ok...just wasn't sure...I'm on the let Kizer sit this year and let us see if Cody can get er done this year...if not next years QB class looks better than this years.

we can grab our QB next year if need be, p.us a couple of other WR's while we are at it...

Really good stuff there. I would add that Kizer is only 21. He has a good chance of further developing mentally. He's already there physically and the mechanics aren't as ingrained as they might be for an older rookie.

I think we all know that it's easier to change your ways when you are younger.

I agree about his base being smaller. I've only watched the Texas game clips so far but his stride/over-stride is noticeable in that game.

I know it's just one throw...but he looked a little "mechanical" to me. Also - and maybe I'm pre-disposed to looking for this after reading this thread - he looked like he's fighting to keep his left foot from flaring out to the left. It looks like his toe is pointed straight but his heel (leg follow through) wanted to flare out.

Interesting to watch that video after reading the comments in this thread.

I'm with edromeo that the right leg-kick doesn't seem to be as much an issue...but that left leg flare-out has to be fixed. I'm going to watch the game clips and try to pay attention to throws left versus throws right...I think Vers is on to something there.

This has been the best thread I've seen on here for a long, long time. I've read every word and every link provided from the beginning. You've brought a lot to the table as has many others. I can't remember a thread that talked so much football without the arguing and personal attacks.

Someone said, maybe you, this is like the old board used to be, lots of football talk.

jc

Ran into a guy on Saturday after voting and he noticed my Browns hat and told me he knew Cody Kessler, CK played against his son's team in high school. He told me that he was the most athletic player he had ever seen. This guy told me that Cody was a point guard in High School and scored 50 points in one game. I'm not sure if he has all the tools to be a good QB or not. I don't think a rookie season tells it all. I'm a glass half full person, as long as it bourbon. Hue liked him for some reason, maybe he can whisper this kid too.

Basket Ball

More BB

I think Cody Kessler has much more upside than most give him credit for too. I have no issue starting him this year to see.

I don't want to side track this thread - but I am in this camp too.

Thanks - I can see the tendencies that are being discussed, I can see why these would impact consistency. . . . but that's a long way from being able to identify a tendency or flaw that hasn't already been brought up!! That's something I think has been so good and enjoyable in this thread - a lot of very good input from many with good insight into coaching.

Again, a baseball background here, but if you have a picther that can paint the corner at 98 mph 3 out of 10 pitches, you can teach him to do that 5-6 out of 10 pitches. At least you think you can if you are a good coach. (It doesn't always work out that way.)


The point is Kiser can make good throws. He has it in him. He has shown it, so the ability is there. If the ability is there, it's there. He has the ability. Natural arm strength is there. You can't teach that. You can't turn a pitcher who throws 88 and make him a guy who throws 98. It's not going to happen. At some point he has had to hit 98 MPH to know he can do it.

The point is if the kid has the abillity, then why not coach him to do it more often?


Again....sometimes it just never happens. Not a failure by anybody. It just wasn't meant to be.

Thanks ddub.

Riddler was the guy who brought up the part about this thread being like the old board. I only supported his claim. Speaking of Riddler.........I always thought he was a good poster.


Oh, and thanks for the kind words. You wanna know something? You are the one who inspired me to post like this. I wrote to you and some other guys about possibly leaving the board. In your response, you mentioned how the board has went downhill and how so many other good posters no longer post here. That made me kinda sad. I've never been a quitter and I started to consider........how about we take the board back? Start talking real football again. Hell, many of us used to argue a lot, but we didn't take it so personal. I remember guys like Diam, Pit, and DnD telling me how ignorant I was and I would laugh because I knew there was no malice behind the comment. It's just guys arguing strong.

So bro.........if you and others wanna help me restore the board to it's pinnacle, I would be most appreciative.

Back to the topic...........which should be about Kizer and not Kessler. I think the title is misleading. The original article was about Kizer's issues and whether Hue can fix them.

I think the game breakdown stuff is going a bit too slow to keep people's interest. I seriously doubt if we get through all the games. I think the the Stanford and Michigan State games might be good games to look at. I would like to hear more about the USC game. I thought it was very interesting and very revealing.

Come on, y'all..........pitch in. Don't be shy. It's a freaking football message board. Who cares about how skilled a poster is at evaluating things. The key is to have good discussion. Watch a play and point something out. Ask a question. Speaking of questions...........I love questions. ddbub and Diam used to ask me questions all the time. They really made me think. Hell, it helped me learn. We have guys on this thread like guard, Swish, 888, KWhip, ober, etc who have asked great questions. Even if we don't know the answers, we are learning because we are delving deeper into the subject matter. That is a learning process in itself. Here is an example:

Anyone remember Bloom's Taxonomy? Think about it:

https://goo.gl/images/WCr98q

That is what we can do here.

Here is a video of the Michigan St game in 2016. Interesting as hell. So much to see. Great throws. Dumb throws. Crazy athleticism. Pocket presence. Inaccurate throws. Great runs. A lot going on.

I'll post my thoughts later.............curious as to what you guys see:

Wow at 4:35'ish, he bombs that. He didn't even really plant before launching that missile. I know it wasn't a completion, but that arm strength.

Good video, thanks for posting. Array of strengths, weaknesses and talent on display.

I think that he was in a bad situation last year. He had injuries on the OL, and issues at WR. He appeared to be slow on his reads, and that is probably to be expected out of a rookie, but I am sure that youth at WR did not help either.

I am not ready to anoint him, but I am really interested to see how he does this year.

j/c

I have to give credit to my fellow Browns fan for this comment about Hue making suggestions to Kizer regarding his footwork/mechanics at the combine...did any other coach make any suggestions at the combine? He's saying that surely Hue wasn't the only one...right?

Hue and he QB Coach gave him some adjustments during his visit in Berea, not the combine. At least that's how I read it.

Man this kid throws some great passes. Great deep and middle seam. Calling Coleman and Njoku.

He's got excellent touch and extremely good pocket presence. Slides around, steps up and hangs in there under pressure and doesn't take off too early.

We get a damn running​ game going and a defense to keep games close, this dude will thrive on Play-Action.

I keep going back to that 77% Completions on Play-Action.

I found myself watching this thinking to myself, Dame must be crushing State. Then I look at the score.

Diam. Did ND defense really suck wind that bad?

We know he was given the reigns to change Coverage at the LOS. Little sign of intelligence.

So he's reading something Pre-Snap. Hard to tell what.

Post-Snap is really difficult to determine. You just can't tell what he's seeing or thinking. He does look off the Safety nicely on several throws.

It's obvious he really trusts his arm. He throws some darts splitting defenders.

Kizer is REALLY growing on me.

Without question he's got the most potential of ANY QB on this roster.

They had a bunch of suspensions and injuries on defense and they fired their DC during the season. I'd say they left a lot to be desired on that side of the ball. The secondary especially was a mess.

I think it's fairly safe to say they did need to outscore people. I also wonder how switching QBs during the season/having Zaire breathing down his neck might have fed into him trying to do too much at times.

I have 3 plays from the first quarter that I want to highlight. I'm waiting to hear from some others and will add more later.

About 55 seconds into the vid: Zone read, Kizer pulls the ball out and rolls left, buys some time, and lofts a short pass w/tremendous touch to an open receiver. Very impressive.

About 1:30 into the vid: Kizer's feet get too active on drop. He is overlapping them, and if you watched the Herman video I showed earlier, you will remember that this is not a good thing because his base is off. The right leg kick is fairly extreme and the ball sails way high of the intended target. Mechanics.

About 2:00 min into the vid: Kizer runs to the left an shows his speed and running ability on a TD. Faster than I thought based on his 40 time.

Ya .. it was that bad to begin with then as Grimm mentioned we had suspenions/injuries ... not sure how much the injuries hurt as we stunk before them ... the one suspension definetly hurt ... the other one just because of the sheer #'s more than likely hurt ...

our best CB Cole Luke had 3 great seasons and then regressed last year .. he got beat 3 or 4 times a game it seemed and he was still our best secondary player ...

The suspensions on D happend late August ... and the D never improved one little bit .. we were doomed before the season and then we suffered a few injuries that quite frankly you didn't even notice they were so bad before that .. *L* ..

Losing Redfield really hurt ... well possibly .. one hell of an athelete and smart dude ... he graduated in 3 years with his language being Chineese ... one hell of an athelete but the kid couldn't keep his starting job ... he'd lose it every year .... very FRUSTRATING dude ... he was a safety ...

The other suspension on D only hurt cause he was a CB ... Butler was a senior but he pretty much did nothing his first three years .. would say it didn't hurt at all but the corners across from Luke all struggled also ... he couldn't have hurt just not sure how much he would have helped ...

Front 7 was the problem ... line STUNK and the LBer's weren't much better ...

And that 77% completion rate on play action is decieving .. he had all day and guys running wide open ... any qb would have thrived ... plus there's the downside to that ... how did that affect his overall completion % .. u know when he had a rush and not having guys wide open ...

Any nfl qb can thrive with time ... thats not an issue ...

Hey Diam.........since you probably don't have time to watch the game tapes, can you give us more insight into what you think of the guy mentally and character wise?

It doesn't have to be long. Just touch on a few things like:

--is he humble enough to accept criticism and coaching?

--did he improve his weaknesses while at ND?

--his pre-snap reads look pretty good, but what about going through his progressions?

--You touched on this already, but I wanna hear more about him as a teammate and leader?

--Some of his comments are pretty strong. Is he just confident or is he arrogant?

--How does he do in pressure situations?

You don't have to answer all of them, but I'm curious about these things.

(You weren't asking me but..)

I assume he's very confident if he's going to "compare" himself to some sort of Tom Brady/Cam Newton hybrid..

And I sorta hope he has an ego too.

Because I believe he's a smart kid. Because I assume you have to be at least somewhat smart to be able to attend ND.

So throwing that statement out there like he did, he now has to back it up.

I don't really "care" if he's humble. He's 21. I can assume he's not... But as long as he's willing to put in the work, mentally, to get to the level he's already claimed, the physical side is clearly there..

I say all of this, as a guy who didn't really want him. But he's here now.

And guys I've wanted on the team in the past ended up being crap. So what do I know?

Thanks for posting the vid of the kids reps v Michigan St

I watched that game and thought he struggled but in this format and with the goal of looking at him as a prospect - I liked a lot of what I saw

Vers' two positive plays stand out

Separate from any mechanics - my one criticism is the quality of the outs he throws that are to the left seems like something is wrong because he has the arm strength

Yeah.......I don't know how much of the thread you've read, but I have noticed in my limited viewing is that he struggles w/quite a few throws to the left and also WRs running slants or crossing routes from the left side.

I think the hip thing is huge and he gets off balance. But, I am not positive.

Btw----------good eyes.

I hear you. I am just trying to become more educated. Diam gets some inside info.

I like Kizer more than I did before I started watching his tape, but it seems like there is something missing there. Not sure what. That's why I was asking...

Based on your suggestion I am scanning the previous pages

Nothing in those three clips scare me (I am not qualified to comment on mechanics) ------ so I didn't read the article or have the volume on (just watched these three clips silent)

Looked like he was lazy on three throws
I call it lollipop - when some one tries to throw a little too cute

But I see Big Ben try to flick his wrist and end up missing just like that


I still haven't seen kizer really stroke a throw to the left intermediate

Thanks for contributing. I love hearing all the different takes.

ND at MSU 2016:

6:30 Good touch and timing

7:00 Play action, good mobility in the pocket (steps-up) throws from left has to inside the 1 yd line at right boundary, placement is exceptional pass-incomplete.

7:30 Pass to corner of end zone, accurate throw but maybe a little late. WR had to show Kizer his number an go up to catch a contested pass by DB - TD

8:00 Pressure in his face, stands in and takes a big hit but delivers a accurate ball for a 30 yd gain.

10:35 Hits a crossing route, slides to his left and waits for the WR to uncover. Patient and comfortable in the pocket, converts a 1st. down.

Two concerns that came to mind on this tape. He did lock on to some targets and didn't appear to go thru his progressions.

A recurring theme on most of these Kizer videos. ND did not score many passing TD in the red zone. They become one dimensional with a lot of QB runs in the zone.

guard................breaking it down!!!!

Cheers for the props Vers,

General comment - Don't see any reason why the good work in this thread can't be replicated on any subjects.

You blokes are a lot more likeable when you play nice and don't start with agendas and measuring e peens lol

Looking forward to the training camp briefs and the pre season breakdowns. In the meantime, once this thread has run its course would like to see a similar breakdown on Peppers and our 2 DTs.

I know I know, I'm not asking for much but you guys clearly have more time (and mad knowledge skills) on your hands than me!

Time is incredibly tight ... ma decided he wanted to move down yesterday ... my head is exploding over all the opportunity down here ... this place is BLOWING UP ... I did the Texas game Monday ... will get that up after this post ... then I'm going to do the unlv game .. i want to do them on order to see if there's a point it appears Kelly short circuited him .. *L* ... I'm just going to be slow as hell doing it .. *L* ..

--is he humble enough to accept criticism and coaching?

Humble had no place in his make up at ND ... zero ... he was coachable at ND until he turned Kelly off .. they had a toxic relationship at the end .. it was not good ..

Kelly screwed the QB spot up bigtime ... the entire thing .. there should have never been a QB comp .. HORRIBLE!!!!! This entire thing started as a snowball in the spring and turned into an avalanche by the 1/2 point of the season ...

I said from 1/2 way through the season on .. if Zaire could have hit the broad side of a barn or Wimbush wasn't red shirted ... Kizer would not have made it through the season as the starter ...

He's very smart .. so he does accept it from that standpoint alone ...

He can't accept berating ... *L* ... not sure on the accepting criticism part ..

He does want to improve ... thats always important ...



He regressed this year ... went backwords .... he played very good in the first two or three games .. so its hard to tell if he improved and then melted like a snowflake under Kelly or he just didn't improve ...



So hard to tell in college ... some plays he locks on ... I'll look for it when i go through the unlv game ... other plays he goes through "reads" ... its so hard to tell in college cause the "reads" are different ... not sure how to explain it .. things are a lot simplier in college and in Kelly's O the reads are "dumbed down" ...

Someone said earlier that Kizer was allowed to audible ... not really .. Kelly had a run and a pass play called in the huddle ... with one as the primary ... Kizer could switch from run to pass or vice versa based on what he saw ... all qb's under kelly have that option ...



Wasn't a leader at all ... not sure what else to say .... teammates didn't dislike him ... but they didn't gravitate to him either ... he spent a lot of time in the qb room .. *L* ...

He's 21 ... hoefully he's just shy ..



Very very arrogant at ND ... like Razor has said ... there's been many arrogant QB's at ND ... Kizer fit right in with them ...

I am hoping last year knocked him down a few pegs ... based off the Brady/Newton comment .. it appears he may have rationalized last year away ... *L* ..



Last year with a GREAT O ... he led us down the field many times starting in the 4th and a few on the last drive ... this year ... u saw the Texas game .. he led us back, got us the lead in the 4th .. missed a few opps to put us up by more than a FG and then we lost in OT ...

He handled late game pressure AWESOME til the 2nd half of this year ... how much of that was him, how much was kelly, how much was the fact the O was slightly above average last year when compared to last years great O ...

Hope that helps ...

To me .. its the mental part that will dictate his career ... and that u can't really judge in college, especially with a kid coming from a situation like Kizer's ...

Awesome stuff. Thanks for the knowledge.

Hmmmm. Sounds like Kizer was almost TRYING to get Kelly FIRED!!!! Just sayin'.

I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I think ND's receivers are overrated. They are definitely athletic, but they aren't great at creating separation. They can find holes in zone coverage, but the holes are much smaller in the red zone. In man, they can run away from people, but they aren't very good in and out of their breaks. There's not room to run away in the red zone. ND's tight ends weren't really that impressive either. I don't think Smythe was all the way back from his 2015 knee injury (a few passes seemed just out of his reach), and they didn't really seem to have a jump ball guy.

I had Kizer's games on on the tv in the background just cycling through on Youtube while I was doing something else on the laptop. A few things kind of got my attention.

An example of his receivers' questionable route running (to me) is his first pick in the Stanford game (2016). Around the 5:47 mark his receiver had an inside release, but instead of making a sharp break on an in breaking route, he rounds it and drifts away from Kizer allowing the DB to undercut him. Kizer and the receiver not being on the same page probably played in. I think Kizer did a sight adjustment based on the deep safety, and the receiver adjusted to the LB underneath. So, maybe not the greatest example of route running. I do think the receivers leave a lot to be desired as far as coming back to the ball on comebacks and not rounding in/out-breaking routes.

I think Kizer does struggle some with post snap reads, but I think most QBs do. Even Peyton Manning gets tricked at times. I think Kizer will really benefit from a strong running game, where teams can't get into complicated 7/8 man coverages. Kind of like Trubisky, Robber/Buzz zones caught him at times. Having teams worry about the run will open up the deep shots he seems to excel at. The 2015 game against Ohio State shows some of both. Tyvis Powell picks him off twice from disguised coverages. However, he hits Fuller in stride for long TDs a couple times as well. (Side note: that OSU D was loaded)

Watching his connection with Fuller made me decide to go back and try to take a look at Corey Coleman. His highlights look great, but when I looked at the actual games I was somewhat underwhelmed. He's so raw. He basically ran three routes (4 if you count "stand there" screens) slants, go's, and hitches. His athleticism is undeniable though, and he can high point the ball extremely well for his size. I do think he can play that Fuller role for Kizer, when he is ready to step in at QB. Even with his limited route tree, he could separate from DBs. His speed seemed to terrify DBs at times- overplay the fade and he'd burn them on the slant or vice versa. If Saunders can catch up his technique, watch out. We'll hopefully have some big bodied athletes for Kizer or whoever is QB as well in Britt, DeValve, and Njoku which should help in the red zone.

*L* ... not even close ...

Kelly is not the reason for al of Kizer's problems last year ...

I'm looking forward to watching for certain things in the rest of the games ..

Once again the day got away from me ... life is annoying sometimes .. *L* ...

If i don't get my texts thoughts up tonight (prolly gonna be too tired before i get any free time to do it .. ) I'll do them first thing tommorow before reading anything else so i can just focus on it ..

Sad part .. its going to be very short and sweet ...