DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer

I think this is an interesting article w/actual game pics. I have to post the link because I don't think the pics will show up if I copy and paste it.

Check it out:

https://www.18stripes.com/film-room-iso-cam-kizer-throwing-motion/

I was very interested in his feet and especially his back foot ... when it "circled" it seemed to be very bad .. I'll start with a few comments .. not much to add at this point ...

My thoughts heading in were that Texas and UNLV would be his best two games of the year ... and after watching Texas it'd be tough to have a much better game ... don't know his comp% but I'd guess it was up there ... no picks ... I thought he played very well ... he certainly played good enough to win .. *L* ..

I tracked his back foot to see what happend to it during the throw and follow through ... I broke it down pretty good ... direction and distance ... it seems the interest in this thread is waning a little bit ... so I'm going to just post the 1st phase for now ... if anyone wants more let me know I will break it down further .. i don't mind spending the time just don't want to do it if its going to be a waste of a very valuable commodity right now ... ... like i said if u want more just ask ..

Next game i want to look at the front foot and see if i can tell when it gets "wide or "short" or is part of a good delivery .... unfortunately my guess is on a lot of plays its going to be hard to tell what way the foot is pointed when it lands ...

I had 4 categories ....

front .. in a "natural" motion ... back foot ended up in front of the front foot ..
side .. that would be even with his front foot or slightly in front or behind it ..
Circle .. the one where it looks like he has no control of it or like he's a kid being swung by an adult ... *L* ...
Jumps .. if i need to define that one i quit ...

Then i broke it down to accurate an inaccurate throws ... here's the results ... I also have times by each pass so if u want some examples let me know and i can give u the time stamps ...

Forward - he threw 12 passes when his foot went forward ... 8 were accuratte and 4 were innacuratte ...

Side - he threw 2 where his back foot landed even with his plant foot ... 1 was (A) 1 was (IA) ..

Circle - he threw 3 passes where he looked like he had no control over his back foot ... 1 (A) .. 2 (IA) ..

Jumps - all 3 he threw were accurate ... these are screens ...

He threw form the move twice ... both were accuratte ...

He threw flat footed once .. it was a wheel route by the RB .. LOS was around the 20 and it was a "fade/touch" pass ... accurate ... it was a TD ...

One pass was tipped ...

I can break the above down into depths and where in the field it was thrown .. right, left, middle ... i have them all time stamped ...

Here's the comments I made on a few throws ...

1:55 mark .. it was to his right in the medium range .. Zip - Wow throw to me ...

6:50 .. Wow throw both good and bad .. through a strike to Hunter between 3 defenders .. he also led Hunter into one of the most vicious hits I've seen in a while ... u can't throw your recievers into that ..

A few other comments on plays but those are the main two ...

There's Texas ...

If any of u want me to look for anything else during the unlv game please let me know ..

Awesome information. Very scientific.

Now, once you collect the data.......you have to do something w/it.

What conclusions [and I do realize that they will evolve as you collect more data] can you draw from what you saw?

Hope all is well sir ... i know you don't like me anymore .. at least u post like I'm your enemy for some reason lately .. but i still love u my friend ...

The starting base is obviously HUGE .. and u know i understand how important feet are .. back in the day others use to ridicule me about talking about OLman's feet, especially on the outside ... I'm with u on the feet ...

I don't have near the technical knowledge u do ...

Almost all starting positions are shoulder width apart ... for a qb throwing the ball ... is the ideal starting base stance ... .

Shoulder width ...
Something other than shoulder width .. if so .. please explain ...
different for every qb and what is "natural" to them ...

Please elaborate ... u know i love to learn ..

Vers ... please chime in .. would love to hear your thoughts on that ...

If u want to put the data i posted on an island all by itself .. my conclusion would be its inconclusive at this point ... lack of data on the even and circle landing spots .. u had two for even and three for circle landing spots as opposed to 12 for out in front of the plant foot ...

Sample sizes are to small ... i know enough about stats to be dangerous (thats not a good thing) .. *LOL* .. i know we have some real stat guys on here ... they understand stats way more than me .. am I correct in my ASSumptions if any of u stat guys ( i want to say geeks but don't want to offend folks when asking for help) ... *L* .. its a joke fella's ...

If u pushed me into drawing some conclusions based off these numbers .. I'd say ..

- foot out in front is 2:1 accuratte passes to innacurate ...
- even is 1:1
- circle is 1:2 ...

So we need him to throw like Dereck Jeter did and have his back foot follow the throw to first .. *L* .. i understand throwing and pitching a baseball way more than a football .. *L* ..

Now to glean even more info i would need to break it down by category to direction and distance ... as of now that would only be useful on the back foot landing ahead of the plant foot 12 throws ..

Some would say thats using stats and analytics ... and we all know Diam HATES BOTH ... *LOL* ..

What u guys call analytics i call common sense ..
And I HATE how stats are used on here almost exclusively ... I've always said put in context and using MULTIPLE STATS to prove a point is SMART ...

I'm going to watch the rest of the games regardless ... i know you'll talk to me .. just don't get mad as others lose interest ... as long as i have one other person to chat with .. I'll keep posting ..

Just so you know (speaking for myself) interest is not waning one bit. I've been reading and re-reading the posts like yours above.

OK .. cool .. thanks for the info ... thats what i get for ASSuming ... bad diam .. bad diam ..

I'll second that.

From your (Diam) write-up of the Texas game, it sounds like you have confidence that he CAN make the throws he needs to make...but consistency is his issue. Which is a common theme it seems.

Can you glean anything from his ability to read the D post-snap? I know that's hard to really see and I know I personally have very little ability/knowledge to see much in that regard.

Ive never had a doubt he can make all the throws .. never .. i said that in the first sentance of my first post about him ...

My main two questions are:

1. As u pointed out consistency ... cause here's the things with that ... we can fix his mechanics .. and thats all about reps and muscle memory ... now after Hue "fixes" his mechanics ... will his good muscle memory overtake the bad muscle memory when he's under pressure ... thats a great unknown regardless of the # of reps taken ...

2. Mental aspect of the game ... thats two prongued ..

- reading the field ... as u pointed out .. thats really hard to tell in college .. plus the keys and reads are different in college ... one way there different is in college u may have 2 seconds after the snap to read a D ... in the NFL thats prolly halved ...

I'm going to look at that next game ... i can tell u when he scanned the field and when he locked onto his reciever .. but even that really doesn't mean much unless he locks on almost every play .. that means he sucks at it and prolly will have no shot in the NFL .. *L* ..

- then the mental toughness part of the game ...

I love doing this .. and i hate to say it .. but this is a crapshoot IMO .. almost all QB's are ... so we're going to draw conclusions and for me have some fun and learn some getting there ... but IMO the conclusions go out the window once the games start .. and hopefully we don't find out til next year about Kizer .. one thing i do know ... IMO he shouldn't see the field after pre-season ..

I'd also say he's in an ideal situation here .. much better situation than my man Mitch is in ..

Just an FYI. I've been following the thread closely and will continue to do so.

U got anything you'd like me to watch for?

I'd love to hear what you guys can glean regarding his mental capabilities in playing QB.

It sounds like he's similarly inconsistent in reading the D (post-snap).

He does it well sometimes? Further, what tells you when he does do it well (other than not throwing it to the other team, obviously)? Is it watching his head to see if he looks at more than 1 receiver/ works through his progressions?

He's able to manipulate the safeties with his eyes? I believe I remember a couple people say he's really good at this. Would this be an indicator that he can read the field? A weak indicator?

It seems that you guys have everything pretty much covered. I'm sort of curious on how quick his release is and how he does in going through his progressions. Thanks.

DeShone Kizer - QB - Browns

CBS Sports' Jason La Canfora "wouldn't be surprised" if DeShone Kizer is the Browns' Week 1 starter.

Kizer has been drawing raves from coach Hue Jackson at rookie camp. The Browns have no plans to rush him, but it's not impossible he wins out in an open competition with Cody Kessler and Brock Osweiler. Even if Kizer doesn't win the Week 1 job, he should make rookie year starts.
Source: CBSSports.com May 12 - 5:44 PM

I hope he earns it and wrecks the league shocks the world..

Astute analysis by JLC considering our other two options are Kessler and Osweiler.

Personally, I "wouldn't be surprised" if Josh Gordon doesn't play a game this season.

Love all this info. Good stuff! I wish I still had "Finding the Winning Edge" By Bill Walsh He has some awesome info on what to look for in a QB in that book. I had posted some of it on the old Browns board before they took it down... Unfortunately, I loaned it to my brother-in-law and never got it back. Now it seems to have disappeared. 80 bucks I spent on that book. Oh well... Lesson learned. NEVER loan books to anyone! Peace

Considering how often our QB's get hurt it's not unlikely that we go through all three, Kessler, Brock AND Kiser.

I would be flabbergasted if meathead plays a single down this season or any other.

Assuming we don't pull a Miami Sharks..

I wonder if they'd sign a vet to play before putting Kizer in before he's "ready"

Sup Cody.

You are confusing me a bit, bro.

I wasn't talking about stats and analytics. I wanted to know what you saw.

I'm not too worried about being right or wrong. It's not about being safe. It's about watching the guy's tape and offering opinions. It's a message board, bro. It sure beats the bickering that typically occurs.

I've moved on and watched a few more games than you. Here is what I see thus far [and yes, my opinion can change as I watch more, but it's fun to talk about this stuff.]

--I see a few mechanical issues:

1. Front hip opens up some throws, especially when throwing to the left or to receivers who are running from left to the center of the field. This causes his shoulder and elbow to drop and his release point has to be perfect in order to make an accurate throw. He pulls it off at times, but this leads to inconsistent accuracy.

2. Base is a bit too wide on some throws. Not all the time. There are times when he has a great base. It's very important in any sport to have a great base. I will actually expound on this later when I respond to your response to tab.

3. The dramatic right leg kick that is more extreme at times than others. See a pattern here, guys? Look at all three of my criticisms and note that he isn't always guilty of the flaws in each category. I think the dramatic leg kick adversely affects his balance.

I think all three areas are fixable. I think Hue has already addressed number 2 and told Kizer to narrow his base.

Now, his mental game is an unknown to me. I asked you questions. I have been reading like crazy and watching tape. Hard to tell and I am unwilling to offer an opinion at this time.

One last thing. I have noticed that he has some real positives:

--Plus arm

--Makes some good pre-snap reads of the defense

--Good mobility in the pocket

--Good pocket awareness

--Accurate at times

--Prototypical size

--Better runner than I thought

I think it's going to come down to how mentally together the dude is. Will he work on his issues? Can he read coverages pos-snap? Will he go through his progressions? Is he a leader? Can he accept coaching? Will he quit being a puss and stop melting down? I know that one sounds mean and it probably is........but if he thought Kelly was mean, wait until he hears the opinions of John Q Public and the Mean Media that scrutinize every move he makes when the team is losing games, which they almost assuredly will.

Hey Diam...............I think tab was replying to the article that I posted at the top of page 7.

Regarding the base...........there are some minor differences, but yeah, the base should be the classical athletic stance, which is is having the outside of your feet aligned w/the outside of your shoulders. Slight knee bend. Flexible hips w/just a bit of forward lean. 70 percent of your weight on the back foot when setting up. I never told my qbs 70 percent. That's too abstract for many dudes. What I would have them do is put more weight on the back foot and then try and lift the front leg up and maintain balance. You don't want it even and you sure as hell don't want it too far back.

I will say that there are some qbs [who are accurate] that are a bit wider than shoulder width, but it isn't by much.

It's kinda common sense, y'all. I hope you guys don't mind me asking you to try things, but to me.......physical tests [kinesthetic] are better than just words.

Try this..........

Get up off your fat asses....pick something up that isn't too heavy...........put your feet almost side by side and throw that item at the wall as hard as you can. [Not a glass, dude.] Now, spread them out just a bit and try again. Then, try shoulder width apart and try again. Now, get them a bit wider than shoulder width and try again. Finally, spread them out as far as you can and throw one last time. It's obvious where you have the most power.

You can do the same thing w/a partner. Ask your wives........they'll gladly knock you on your fat ass. Pretend you are a pass blocker.........adjust your feet as listed above. Allow her to push you in the chest from each position. There is no doubt that you are a wuss w/a narrow stance and a clumsy clown when too wide.......while you are a true stud that she can't move when you are in the classic athletic stance. Hell, she might even be impressed by your physical prowess and you might get lucky tonight.

Not questioning the logic simply adding to. I admit I haven't watched Irish football this year. Is Kiser missing to the left because of his own accord or maybe a weak receiver? If you are unsure on reliability, you may take extra precaution.

"You can do the same thing w/a partner"


I followed your advice and tried this with the old woman.
After bouncing off the wall a coupla times,she hit me with the frying pan,again.
Now I have a big old knot on my head and I'm seeing double.
Perhaps I should just leave the physical stuff to the young turks.

Kizer vs Texas cont....

1:33s Scramble.
Shotgun. Snugs formation. Begins read from (r) side. Turns down the (r) side read b/c they aren't open. But hesitates when he gets to the open hitch/spot route on the (L) side, scrambles instead.

1:47s

3rd and 13. 15yd Dig. Throwing to the left, receiver from the left.

Footwork looks like a shotgun punch 3 step drop (basically taking 1 step before you go into your actual 3-step drop) OR it could be that his footwork is just off? I say that because even after he gets to the top of his drop he's still waiting on the receiver. Ideal you want to throw on rhythm either at the top of the drop of after a hitch/reset. But on this route he's waiting and basically just hoping/bouncing waiting for the receiver to clear open.

Half field read (L). Into a tight window with good velocity. Placed the ball exactly where he wanted. Still has the trail leg 'kick'. Good ball.

2:25s Gun Empty. Defense blows coverage. Throw to the (L). Receiver gets behind defense. Ball on target, maybe a little too much pace/receiver makes the catch look like more of an adventure then necessary?

3:04 Gun Empty. Throws checkdown to the RB (R) after scrambling from the pocket. Reads middle of the field 1st. Doesn't like the look bails from pocket BUT Hitch on the (L) is wide open. Makes a play on the scramble.

3:11s

Gun. Looks like a variation of 'all go special'. Bad Read. Tries to fit an impossibly tight seam ball to the slot on the (L) covered man-to-man with S help over the middle of the field. He almost pulled it off. He uses his ball placement low and inside to lead/bend the receiver off the vertical stem and into the middle of the field. (Imho he may as well throw the sideline go route). But really he had to checkdowns open and it was 1st and 10. As they say...you never go broke taking a profit. Attempting a lot of unnecessary low % throws on 1st down downs when there are checkdowns open is gonna lower any QBs compl % and overall offensive efficiency. But that's a mix of playcalling and QB decision making.

(Imo there's something off about the timing of his dropbacks and the time/rhythm when he releases the ball. Too often he's in the pocket bouncing/hoping around waiting to throw the ball. He rarely gets to the top of his drop and throws on rhythm unless its play-action. Which makes me wonder about the structure of the offense and about whether or not his dropback footwork is on point?)

3:21s

Gun. 3rd and 7. Deep Dig (R). Similar concept except flipped to the pass he completes at the 1:47 mark. Crowded pocket. Turns down a check receiver on a drag with the defender playing ~2 yards off. The receiver he chooses is open. But the throw is off target (catchable) but the placement should be chest level and its thrown low. He probably doesn't want to lead the receiver to far out in front and keep it low as opposed to high because the receiver hasn't crossed the face of the Safety yet and if he throws it high in front and the receiver doesn't get there then the Safety has a chance at a interception.
And again, he's not throwing in rhythm at the top of his drop.


HALF TIME.

Kizer vs Texas 1st half:


Bad decisions/reads: 13s, (59s), 1:33s, 3:04s, 3:11s
Missed throws (accuracy/placement): 13s, 44s, (55s), 3:21s
Good throws: 17s, 1:24s, 1:47s, 2:25s, 3:04s

Well from everything I have been listening to and reading here it seems his biggest challenges to getting a work load by week 1 would be the huddle communications and accuracy. I believe these are two areas he has to complete live on the field whereas he can do the details in the QB room learning and reading defenses on films to understand his reads, of course he will also have to practice that on the field aswell but huddle communications and accuracy/mechanics are alot more hands on so the question really is how much hands on will he get in the QB rotations during TC and will he show enough progress in those areas for week 1?

That's an interesting point. It triggered something in my memory bank. I'm going to analyze his drops as I continue to watch his tapes. Thanks for pointing that out. Good stuff.

He does get Happy Feet and that in itself can lend itself to not being able to step into throws especially if he trys to make a quick throw to his third or fourth progression.

http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns...om-him-1.766751

Kessler in the driving seat - which makes sense as he has the most starts for the Browns out of current roster. Hope he forces Kizer to sit all year

Didn't know where else to post this.

I'm of a split mind on this point. I see and understand that viewpoint. My concern is the QB class that is supposed to be in the 2018 draft. If Kizer is the guy, we won't need to chase a QB next year. But how will we know if he never gets in a game? To me, the best scenario would be for CK/BO to open the season as starter/back up with Kizer moving in about mid-season. It's a compromise to be sure, but we would better know what we need next draft.

Oh - I only want to start Kessler all year if he is performing like a NFL QB.... My statement was more wishing Kessler to be successful rather than Babying Kizer. . . If Cody doesn't cut the mustard, and we are winless or not looking competitive by week 5, I'd look for them to make the switch to Kizer for the reasons you state.

I know most think Kessler is a back up at best - weak arm and reluctant to throw deep. I am hoping to see a significant improvement. I think Kessler is going to surprise a lot of folks. Now whether he surprises them enough to be a starter full time for 16 games .... that is to be determined.

I understand where you are coming from...however...unless Kizer starts to look like a combo of Brady-Newton, I think we are drafting a QB high next year. Not because he did or didn't look the part...not because Hue is giving up on him...but simply because they (coaches & FO) won't likely "know" what they have in Kizer no matter how much he plays this year.

If Kizer gets in a lot of games and plays well...they will not have a large enough sample size to "know" and risk passing on one of the potential FQBs coming out next year. If he gets (has) to play a lot and struggles it will be too early to tell after throwing him into the fire prematurely.

At least we finally started building a foundation for a young QB to succeed and we won't blow our wad on a QB only to have him play behind the likes of Cam Erving and Alvin Bailey.

I got out of that about what I expected. The thing that gives me the most hope is that the kid is smart. I liked the comment about him soaking everything up without being overwhelmed. He's definitely a work in progress and we don't know what the end result will net us. But on the flip side, I think he has more of a base to work with than anyone we've drafted in a very long time.

From the games that i've watched and the current game I'm charting the WAAAYYY to early conclusion for me right now is that Kizer's accuracy will improve by leaps when his footwork is sharp and he's decisive with the throw. When he's throwing decisively with his footwork in rhythm he's accurate whether its left or right or with the leg kick or not.

I recall reading that Kizer was tops in QB rating with play-action. And watching the tape it makes sense. Usually when a QB is throwing off play-action everything is defined. They know they're taking X step drop and throwing to either option A-B-C. The read is defined and the footwork is defined.

Kizer is gonna have to work on his footwork and his knowledge of the play concept so that he can throw as decisively from non-play action as he does with. Too often he gets to the top of his drop and is waiting or hoping around/happy feet. Then when he does decide to throw its off.

I want to watch some 2015 tape next to compare.

Do you think it will take him a full year to make that leap?

Here are his advanced stats from PFF:

Don't mind the tray still being open. I'm not sure why gyazo didn't close it.

I think if he plays we'll see him used a lot like Hogan was. I think we might see more runs than anything.

The only true answer to that question is I don't know. Ideally you don't play him till he's ready....but that could happen at any time. I think they'll set some benchmark or metrics to assess when he'll be ready.

I know Al Saunders used to something called 'shape'. It basically grades a QB's practice everything from footwork, knowledge or the play etc. I think when Kizer is close to Kessler's grades then he'll play.

Here's a link to better explain 'shape':
http://www.silverandblackpride.com/2011/6/11/2218603/al-saunders-raiders-jason-campbell