DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Lamar Jackson cont.

I'd say both of those things are accurate.

I waited to see what the responses would be.....thus far there has only been 1 that I've seen and that post seemed to agree w/ Cosell's points about Lamar.

Based on how this thread and most of the QBs threads have gone there probably won't be any response or acknowledgement of Cosell's or (Palazollo, Chris Simms etc) any comments that are favorable towards Jackson or any prospect they dislike. Its too bad because actual discussion based on film/research imho are much better and more informative then people just spamming their opinions and moving on. But, that's my issue with message boards and forums in general.

But specific to Cosell's comments:

1) Erhardt-Perkins Passing Game

-a very underrated aspect of Lamar's game is the fact that Petrino runs a pro-style passing offense. Petrino's passing game concepts use the Erhardt-Perkins philosophy and verbiage.
I would guess about a 1/4th of the NFL runs this offense to include Todd Haley, Bill O'Brien, Josh McDaniels and Mike McCoy to name a few that i'm sure of.

He's rarely mentioned in the conversation of 'pro-style' offenses with Josh Rosen and Josh Allen but he certainly should be. That is because he's such a dynamic athlete that a lot sports media and fans don't look past that added aspect of his game. It's as if they are blinded by his 'wow' plays. But if you look only at his passing, after Rosen, Lamar's faces the easiest transition based on the passing concepts they ran in college.

A little of this was evident at the combine. Although Lamar didn't throw the ball great during his combine session he at least hit his depth marks with his drop backs more often then many of the QBs there especially in comp to Baker who threw the ball well but often adlibbed his drop back depth/steps.

2) Doesn't look to run



-I think the casual look from some sports media/fans leads some to wrongly believe that Lamar 'looks to run' or 'bails from the pocket too early' which is just another form of the "running QB" label.

I think people confuse the designed runs that are part of the running game with Lamar bailing on a passing play and dropping his eyes and running around. Louisville offense asks Lamar to run because it would be stupid and self defeating to have that aspect of Lamar's game and not use it. From the tape that I've watched both Allen and Darnold bail from the pocket more or at the very least at the same frequency that Lamar bails. You can see Lamar go deep into his progression and make 2nd and 3rd level throws.

Cosell's response?

Uhmmm................he had Rosen as his best qb. LOL

For Swish...

Adam Schefter
‏
Verified account

@AdamSchefter
Following Following @AdamSchefter
More
Leftover tidbit from weekend combine: one team said it had Louisville’s Lamar Jackson as the second-rated QB in upcoming NFL draft.

the only guy i have over him is Rosen.

but it depends on what Todd and Hue want their offense to look like.

some people around the threads have used Tyrod as a slight indication of what sort of QB they want in the draft.

while i don't buy into that too much, there can certainly be some validity to that.

So IMO, if we were basing the QB we draft on the skill set of Tyrod, then the top 2 choices we have in the draft are Mayfield and Jackson.

you literally dont have to change the offense. all 3 QB's have similar skill sets, mobility, able to throw on the run, can operate of the pocket, good at extending plays, can decimate teams with their legs, etc.

so, you can look around the league and see backups who might have similar skillsets like the starters, but overall, i dunno if that matters much.

therefore, i have him at #2 over Rosen as far as QB's go, and thats ONLY because Rosen, from a pure passer standpoint, is heads and shoulders above the rest of the pack. Vers has been spot on about that.

but Lamar certainly has the highest ceiling of any of the top 5. and the case can be made that he doesn't have the lowest floor, either.

and then also, How many games has Tyrod actually missed since becoming a starter in 2015?

how many has Vick missed? how many has lamar missed in college?

and so thats why i look at lamar vs rosen, and i pick lamar. how come the "running" QB doesn't get hurt, but the pocket QB can't stop getting injured?

best ability is availability. dude can be a top notch QB, or he could be sam bradford with the injuries. that is a real possibility that people have to consider.

Agree 100 percent, Rosen can throw a pretty pass, but if he gets hurt or retires after getting hit by grown angry men....I'd take Lamar over Rosen every time. Hope Browns bring Lamar in for a visit, then we'd know for sure they at least gave him a shot. He is clearly dynamic......GO Browns!!!

I don't put much stock into the drafting a QB that matches Tyrod theory, but if that was there objective then clearly Lamar would be the choice. But again, I don't put much stock into that theory.

I have Lamar as the top QB in this draft class. When I look at all the skillset categories that are important to me Lamar comes out on top. But, everyone has different preferences and place different weight on certain traits. For me Lamar is as good a passer as Darnold, a better passer then Allen and considering that Lamar plays in more of a pro-style passing game I would say that he's not as far away from Mayfield as people think when it comes to passing. Mayfield is more consistently accurate but he'll face a bigger transition then Lamar when it comes to pro-concepts. At this point the only prospect Rosen that I view as clearly a better passer then Lamar is Rosen. But when I factor in his (1) playmaking and consider that his (2) passing can be improved through coaching he vaults to my top prospect.

I don't put much stock into the higher ceiling debate either; and when it comes to "maxing" out I would give the nod to Allen. But, again, for me the higher ceiling debate isn't important...i'm more concerned with evaluating what they show on film as prospects.

We never really did get around to fully discussing/breaking down the Florida St. game. Were there any specific plays you wanted to highlight...i have some time today....

Anyway different coaches/fans/scouts have different preferences. There is no "one" template for a Superbowl winning or HOF QB. You have Joe Montana to Terry Bradshaw to Mario to Steve Young.

I'm heavily influenced by Bill Walsh and put quite a lot of stock into the ability of the QB to make plays and for me this is where Lamar really separates himself.







From: Finding the Winning Edge (Evaluating Players)

yea, as you saw i did the breakdown here:

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1368916/20

so my biggest issue is his narrow stance. now thats lower body mechanics, which is "supposed" to be easily coachable mechanics, unlike upper body mechanics which is harder.

the florida state game was a great game to choose, as pretty much all of his games are like that. he can read defenses, he can play within the pocket, he can extend plays, all the good stuff.

but what is the likelihood that he reverts back to his narrow base at the pro level? obviously he's gonna do a ton of repetition during OTA's and such to fix that, but will it come back during the season? IF, of course, he even plays his rookie season?

cause from what i noticed, his base is pretty much the sole reason for some inaccurate throws.

you had posted the "time to throw" pic, and one thing i noticed with lamar is that his time to throw is longer because he extends plays in the backfield in order to have more time to throw.

can he duplicate that at the nfl level?

check this out:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

so our O line gave Kizer an average of 2.84 secs to throw. thats 7th best in the nfl. thats even with joe thomas going down.

in 2016, Kessler had an average of 2.9 secs to throw, which was 2nd best.

So lamar will have to throw, and he shown he can read defenses with time, but will he bail out of the pocket early, and can he operate consistently in the pocket at the nfl level.

Question, for the thread:

What do you view as Lamar's weaknesses?

Narrow stance, which of course affects his accuracy.

That's it for me.

j/c

Does anyone know what thread the QB under center stats are in?

I like Jackson, although I haven't really watched much of him. My concern has nothing to do with his abilities, my concern is his slight frame. I had the same concern about Bridgewater and Watson, and both have spent significant time injured. Add to that that he will run. I understand he's a pocket passer first, not a 'running' QB, but his athleticism will lead him to run when plays break down, which opens him up to big hits. I think he has to potential to be great if he can stay healthy. Experience has told me that slight framed QBs don't last long enough to be great.

He does have a slight frame. And he did run the ball a lot in college.

But the obvious flip side to your injury concern is that he wasn't actually injured in college unlike Allen and Rosen both of whom were hit considerably less often then Lamar. For those reasons Lamar's injury risk seems less then the other prospects.

Agreed with you and HB. Lamar's narrow stance is one of his flaws the other that I see are his inconsistent throwing motion arm angles.

I think both are correctable and will result in improved accuracy.

I think the ability to extend plays will certainly translate for Lamar.

Yep, and they narrowed it to an 0-16 record.

The lack of intangibles... He does not transmit than commanding attitude that a QB needs.

He looks a bit "infantile", in the sense he looks like a big Kid. The whole mama thing,didn't help in that sense...

That's my only problem with Lamar honestly, he needs to be more assertive and affirmative to be the face of a franchise

So far no wonderlic rumors, so I assume he tested alright...

I like Lamar a lot, and I see him has Big Ben without the attitude problems, but only see us taking him if he his Haley's QB.

The biggest problem is the inability Hue has showed to adapt to the QB and to tailor the offense to the specifics of the QB, in that sense Rosen and maybe Mayfield are the only ones I see us taking.

I also think Haslam and Dee will never allow the Rosen draft.

I hate to give 2nd/3rd-hand testimony here, but I can't find anything one way or the other on You-tube. I have a friend that watches draft stuff pretty closely said that he was watching NFL Network and they were reviewing the "Whiteboard Sessions" that they have each QB go through, similar to what Gruden used to do.

(According to my friend) Of the top QBs, they said that Baker Mayfield was almost an offensive savant. He knew all the concepts they were throwing at him and just had a firm grasp of just about everything. Darnold and Rosen were just a tick behind him and very knowledgeable. Allen seemed to know the concepts that he was familiar with well, but struggled a bit when new things were thrown at him. And finally, they said that Lamar Jackson really had trouble in the session.

I can't seem to find anything online about his whiteboard session, so maybe they never aired it? Maybe it never happened? Maybe my friend heard it wrong? I don't know.

But Rosen and Mayfield are about as opposite as you can get when you compare the offenses they ran in college. A OC would have to meet Mayfield half-way interms of schemes and concepts.

As far as adapting the offense for Lamar goes the irony is that Bobby Petrino offense is Erhardt-Perkins based. Todd Haley's offense is Erhardt-Perkins based. Todd Haley is the OC not Hue; and they're going to use Haley's verbiage. Lamar would face a far easier transition then Mayfield.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see Rosen and Mayfield has more disciplined, accurate Qb's, game managers. Don't think Darnold is that type of QB, if we ask too much too early of him he has a high probability of becoming Kizer II.

Drafting Lamar and then having him throw 60% of the times is not a concept I like...

IMHO, Lamar is the most ready QB in this year bunch, in the sense that if he goes to an average team, that caters to his strengths, he's the one with more chances to succeed,not only he's the most mobile, but the most familiar with NFL Offenses.. He's also the one that can better overcome Ol and Wr's deficiencies.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying...the points seem to be shifting...*shrugs*

Some/many QB's are good but they need an Offense catered to their specifics - Nick Foles, Deshaun Watson,etc. I think both Darnold and Lamar fall under this category.

Other Qb's have attributes that make them more versatile. An accurate/game manager unless its force into a Vertical O, will probably adapt to more HC/OC driven/managed offenses. My impression is that both Rosen and Mayfield are this type of Qb's.

I try to not reply to your posts, but he is not the "most familiar with NFL offenses."

Goodness!!!!

Opinions, we all have them....caught show where Chris Simms, an NFL QB stated Jackson was HIS top QB and that Louisville had all the pro concepts in their offense. MAYBE Simms is right....go Browns!!!

According to some, and some very well known and respected QB evaluators,(caugh caugh, Cosell) he is

Lamar is most NFL ready - yeah OK.

Watch the NFL defenses against him - Ends rush up field remaining in their lanes to keep him in the pocket and spy his arse. Make him beat you from the pocket and it aint going to happen - IMHO.

Odd. Lamar has made huge plays in the pocket. You clearly didn’t watch the tape.

I watched him against Miss St in the bowl - horrrrrrrible.

A lot of these QBs had bad bowl games. Look at the body of work.

I get that people play favorites..............but are people really disputing my claim that Lamar is the qb in this draft that is the "most familiar w/NFL offenses?


Seriously????????????

I am NOT knocking Lamar, but come on.............rasta throws out a lot of false BS and you guys are taking him seriously?

Seriously?

Do we need to bring up the Jimmy G threads again?

Who said anyone was taking it seriously? Lamar might turn out to be the best QB in this draft, I suppose.
LOL.... I can't say that with a straight face....
But I'm not banking on him attaining that status and I don't think too many other people are, either.

Does anyone think Lamar has a shot at being a Brown?

He's a second maybe even third rounder IMHO.

jk Swish, lol.

Really I think he is a lot like Taylor. I don't know what that means and I think there are four or five better QBs in this draft. I'd take him over White, but if I wanted a backup I'd take a flier on White.

I thought this thread was in the draft part of the forum?

You know.....where people discuss college prospects?

I have no clue who the Browns are going to draft.

But i like evaluating prospects.

I didn't know we were only allowed to discuss prospects who we know for sure the Browns are going to draft.