DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Sam Darnold .. Chapter 3 ..

Actually it does. Your reply was totally uncalled for, but not surprisingly so.

you can expect the same thing i did with kizer.

i hated the idea of drafting kizer last season as well, but once he's on the team, i'm a firm supporter of him until there's indisputable evidence that he isn't the guy.

unlike some others, i dont spend my time hoping a player who ends up on the browns plays bad just so i can be like "see, told ya so". if we draft allen, i will certainly hope he becomes the guy.

but until he's on the team, i have every reason to hope the browns avoids him like the plague, and there's nothing wrong with that.

so we can expect darnold to swap flights on sundays?

i like darnold, but my comment wasn't uncalled for, you just dont like the fact that i pointed out that this has nothing to do with his actual ability on the field.

It actually is an indication of his leadership quality's, but more to the point...the poster is entitle to his opinion...even if it means nothing to you.

Way to be a board bully.

how am i being a board bully? stop making false narratives.

darnold isn't the only guy in the draft with good leadership qualities.

Agreed. My holy war is against Drafting Josh Allen.

And it isn't like I hate Josh Allen. But I hate Josh Allen being the pick at 1.

I will have to really start questioning John Dorsey if that becomes the case. Spotlight is directly on him.


I'll certainly root for Allen and hope that I'm proven wrong. But until then, I am 100 percent against the selection of Josh Allen. That's a liability we cannot afford to take with the number 1 pick.

I do have to say this about Allen: I remember everyone freaking out a few years ago because the word on the street was that front office was really high on Derek Carr, and everyone saw him as more of a second round pick. Meanwhile people were fighting each other over whether we should be taking Manziel (a short guy with questions about his maturity), Bridgewater (A guy with injury questions who people felt didn't want to play in Cleveland), or Bortles (who just seemed to enough to check enough boxes to be good but not great). Starting to sound familiar?

I think people would of freaked out if we took Carr with our #4 pick. People would of probably equally had a problem if we traded up and passed on Manziel and Bridgwater to take Carr at #22. Turns out they would of been right, but the owner bypassed his entire team and went with a hype pick.

I guess so. My biggest concern with Carr was that the tape didn't show enough NFL Passes. I felt that the Fresno State Offense was lots of screens and an occasional post route.

I certainly was wrong about the guy. He might also have gotten a bad rep because of his brother's success in the league. Either way, we clearly were wrong. But Carr was selected where he was for a reason (everyone was wrong). Doesn't change that I'm dead set against the selection of Josh Allen. And I will be until I start being proven otherwise

I just took a look at Carr’s numbers in college.

As far as that goes with regards to the draft, you have to take that into context.

Because Carr would be considered a #1 pick in this draft. Comparing him to Allen is straight up disrespectful bro.

Manziel has the accolades to be considered a first rounder. His problems aren’t on the field, but off.

As far as teddy goes, he came from a pro style offense and was good in the nfl until that injury. Remember he helped get his team to the playoffs.

Bortles has the size, numbers, AND success to warrant #3 overall. And bortles got all the way to the afc title game.

So far the only QBs from that draft in the first two rounds that haven’t been to the playoffs is manziel and jimmy G. I put Carr as a playoff qb because they clinched a playoff berth before he got hurt.

So I guess my point is...what’s your point? Allen doesn’t have ANY of the numbers or success those guys in that draft did. He also doesn’t have ANY of the numbers and success that his own draft class has.

The only thing Allen has over these QBs is that he looks the part.

He has a huge arm. Yay, how many times in the nfl do QBs throw it 70 yards down the field?

We all know the answer to that.

You can make the case for Darnold, Rosen, mayfield, Jackson, and even Rudolph for being taken 1 or 4.

But Allen?

The only argument I’ve heard is potential.

Not actual results. The only diff between Allen and kizer is skin tone. They’re the same player. Big arm, not much else.

You may be able to pry Brian Hoyer away from the Patriots...


;-)

I guess my point is that "this board" doesn't really know. I'm not straight up comparing Allen to Carr. I'm saying that people would of lost it had we picked Carr in the first round that year, and it turns out that it probably would of been the best choice.

Likewise, people would of probably been thrilled had we taken Brigewater or Manziel at #4, even though they ended up slipping all the way to the back of the first round. Also Manziel's maturity questions and Bridgewater's durability questions both eventually came to fruition.

Huh ... thats wierd ...

I guess leading your team to within a game of the playoffs as a 1st year starter isn’t results ... i thought it was pretty good ...

PS. Go look up Kizer’s numbers from that year Mr. STATS ... i have NO CLUE what they are .. i watch football to draw my conclusions ... u rely WAY MORE on STATS than I do ...

Loved Carr would have taken him #1 overall. Don't love any QB in this draft but I am in serious like with a couple.

Mafield I love what I see but scares me to death.

by that logic, allen not being good will come to fruition as well.

if allen came out of that 2014 draft, would he be considered going above manziel, teddy, and bortles?

would he even go before carr or jimmy G? some could argue maybe, but i'm asking you.

would he be drafted over winston and mariota 2015?

i also don't remember bridgewater having durability questions going into the draft, but i could be wrong.

i'm just trying to find a case were a QB went in the first round that absolutely stunk it up in college, only to be good in the NFL, nevermind #1 overall.

help me out here, cause i can't think of any. all these QB's that went in the first round and/or #1 overall had atleast above average college stats and success.

Allen has neither.

thats crazy, i watch football to draw my conclusions too!

like most people. everybody hates stats until the stats start supporting their own opinion. please save it for someone else.

Do u care to discuss Kizer and his first year and the fact u said he had NO RESULTS in his college career ...

Ya ... I didn’t think so Mr. STATS ...

Kizer is NOTHING LIKE Allen ... NOTHING ... Kizer’s a lot closer to your boy Lamar ...

do you really want to do that?

ok.

unlike you, i choose to look at the entire body of work, instead of just picking one year and rolling with it. what did their entire career say?

here's kizer's stats the last year at notre dame:

(2016)2925 yards, 58.7%, 8.1 per pass, 26 TD's, 9 int. 12 games

^^ remember, this was the "bad" year he had where he got benched.

the year before:

(2015)2880 yards, 62.9%, 8.6 per pass, 21 TD, 10 int. 13 games

here's Allen's:

(2017)1812 yards, 56.3%, 6.7 per pass, 16 TD, 6 int. 11 games

and the year before that?

(2016) 3203 yards, 56%, 8.6 per pass, 28 TD, 15 int. 14 games.

__________________________


you're right, kizer is nothing like allen.

he's BETTER than allen, and yet kizer went in the 2nd round, but this loser is being considered a #1 overall?

Kizer didn't have the results, because if he did, he would've went in the first round, REGARDLESS of his mechanical issues. he "only" dropped to the 2nd round.

to keep this thread somewhat on track, here's darnolds last year, his "bad" year:

(2017)4143, 63.1%, 8.1 per pass, 26TD, 13 int, 14 games.

anyone who thinks Allen is better than Darnold is drinking the koolaid.

and my boy lamar?

imma post Allen's last year again:

(2017)1812 yards, 56.3%, 6.7 per pass, 16 TD, 6 int. 11 games

here's lamar's RUSHING #'s:

(2017) 1601 yards, 6.9 per rush, 18 TD's.

do i need to post his passing #'s, or did i make my point clear enough.

I don't get the whole 'wagging' war against this QB or that QB. Doesn't make much sense. I'm a nerd like that and have read in the past the draft order of the 1st round QBs has very little to do with which 1st round QBs are successful. The numbers indicate what everyone should already know.....the 4th 1st round QB has as much chance of success as the 1st -1st round QB.

Going into a situation when the outcome is at best 50-50 its always struck me as odd and futile to develop such visceral dislike for certain draft prospects...especially without making the attempt to actually have a discussion.

These QBs conversations have long since ceased being about film and now they're barely 'discussions'. It just 'pimping my guy' and 'waging war' on other prospects.

It makes draft evaluation and discussion almost impossible...

lol, I think that's because it's already been discussed.

It's not like I haven't watched film on Josh Allen. I have. And it's not like I think he'll be a terrible QB, I just think there's a clear distinction between him and the rest.


And I don't care so much to discuss "evaluations of QBs" in a sense where it doesn't pertain to the Browns.

Honestly, I study the draft because I'm obsessed with my team. No other real reason. Watching old game tape is not exciting to me. The only thing that excites me is trying to find guys that can change this franchise's future around.


That's probably why I'm so adamant against the drafting of Josh Allen. It's because, I think he is far from being the number one QB prospect. Far from it. And it will infuriate me if we draft this guy and screw up our chance at getting ourselves out of this hole that we've been in for the major majority of my life as a Cleveland Browns fan.

I'm 32 years old. I live out of market. So I didn't get much of a chance to really start watching the Browns until 2003-04. I got to watch a game here and there, but as a kid, the NY Teams were the top teams. And I liked the top QBs (Favre, Young, Elway. I'm still a fan of Kurt Warner)

But in the 14 years that I've been able to really be a Cleveland Browns Mega Fan (watching every game, etc), we have had two winning seasons. So, yeah, I'm all in. And I'm sorry if I sound harsh when I say I'm on a crusade not to draft Josh Allen, I just am. After the first pick of the draft, I wish the guy the best. Until then, I will continue my "Anyone but Josh Allen at 1" Holy War



EDIT: Oh, and if you're okay with drafting the fourth best QB of the bunch (and far and away fourth), that's fine. I'm not. This is a guy I have study, and I'm not interested in. Sorry Josh, best of luck somewhere else.

I don't care whether you think there isn't a big distinction between the fourth best and the first best, I still want the guy I think is best. Heck, I want any of the three I think are far and away the best.

Troll harder

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2015/04/success_for_quarterbacks_picke.html

I also think there is a distinction between Allen and the other QBs. (i may have even been one of the first to say so)

But I think its more interesting to discuss the why....in both directions positive and negative as as opposed to just digging in and focusing only on the negatives as if the converse of our opinions isn't a possibility.

I'm there are reasons that make sense for why Allen is rightfully a top prospect. Its goes into the skillset vs production aspect of evaluation. Some would argue that skillset is the most important aspect and that how some arrive with Allen as a top prospect.

It's all good, for a draft nerd like me the tone of the board right now is exhausting because everyone is so dug in discussion is all but gone.

If the shoe fits....

The thread is on Sam Donald and his post was made in that context.

Welcome to the conservative side of life. When you use logic and reason they just counter with emotion. Feels amazing doesn't it.

Your right that it won't change his turnovers. Being nice won't fix that. NFL coaching will and working 80 hour weeks to improve it will somewhat fix it but history shows he will always have some problems with taking too many risks with the ball. Your absolutely right on that.

There is also the x-factor where players fight for the ball harder and play harder when they play for a QB they love to play for too. It's just the plain old effect of high Charisma. It's one of those things Brett Favre had that you just can't coach into someone. Darnold's personality reminds me lot of Farve who I have met several times and is an amazing person minus his infatuation with that Jennifer Flowers. We have not had that high level of leadership since the Browns returned. It would definitely make a difference in the locker room.

Tyrod Taylor might have a good dose of it himself to be honest. He is certainly doing everything right in the offseason to be sure. It will be fun watching Tyrod this season.

I definitely agree with this. I feel like we've discussed a lot of these prospects to death, and at this point, people are exactly that (dug in with who they want)

I wish the draft would hurry up and get over with. Enough is enough. Let's make the number 1 pick (just make sure we pick someone named Rosen, Mayfield, or Darnold). Then we can all relax and discuss the rest of the prospects, lol

I think we all feel that way to a degree and insert favorite QBs to that list. It just shows there is a very good QB class this year. It's a good thing too because the NFL really needs the infusion of talent at the QB position.

No doubt. I agree the QBs have been discussed ad nauseam but in most instances without much depth.

Lol, there still plenty of time for good discussion to take place.....;)

i definitely agree with you. and thats why i simply stated that something like swapping flights wasn't gonna sway me, which i dunno why FL got triggered by that simple statement.

if i already thought someone has a high character, and his character was never in question to begin with, then this situation wasn't gonna do anything to sway me to begin with.

anyway, moving on to football.

while the mentality might be the same, talent wise, is Darnold similar to farve? Farve took risk because he literally could make every throw. it certainly appears that Darnold can as well, but is the arm talent the same, or even better? i legit don't know, my opinion is that darnold has more than enough arm talent to be elite, but the mechanics is a question mark. also, while you can certainly teach guys to be better as far as holding on to the football, that will remain to be seen until he's actually going out there and extending plays. thats when we'll get to see if he still holding on to the ball like a loaf of bread or not.

the throwing motion. it looks quicker, but again, will D linemen be able to time the jumps more than normal? i don't want a repeat of weeden *not calling him weeden* just bringing up the batted pass problem he had.

sometimes you can live with the no guts, no glory risky throws, but if he keeps fumbling the ball all the time, its a major problem.

I hope whomever Dorsey picks the board accepts. Because right now....sheeshh its a mess.

II can't wait until draft day, when we take a QB and the whole drama is laid to rest. Right now, we're just regurgitating the same BS.

I will ed ... NUTTIN ELSE I CAN DO ... im to old to vent anymore ... *L* ..

They can't all be blowing smoke up our butts. Hopefully one of those 24 GM's was Dorsey.