DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Lamar Jackson part three

I wouldn't mind Jackson. I just can't slot him at 1 or 4, which is where we pick.

If Dorsey loves the guy and we do select him, no complaints from me.

Ed keeps posting all these STATS about how good Jackson is ... then i go watch the tape ... TAPE DONT LIE, STATS DO .... well the tape ain’t changed ... he still cant hit the broad side of a barn ...

Lol, this is such of silly way to have a discussion. Posting in caps doesn't make you right....but then i remember there's never been an actual discussion about Lamar's game.

Anyhow i remember you saying the same thing about Watson's accuracy last year.

The stats I've posted are from the game tape.

Your exxagerated negative opinion of Lamar's accuracy isn't supported by the film nor the stats compiled from watching the film.

People see what they want/expect to see. The confirmation bias is strong right now.

The "conversation" around the QBs, but Lamar specifically, have been laughably and eye openingly dissappointing.

I dont have the time to go through the tape and TIME STAMP all the throws where I couldn’t even figure out who the hell he was throwing too much less the ones he sailed 10 yards over someone’s head ...

And yes ... i did say Watson was not accurate enough and i did not want him with our 1st pick ... i also worried about Watsons decision making ... he made a lot of really stupid throws to put his team in horrible positions .... I also said Watson was a WINNER and that was huge and that it shouldn’t be overlooked ...

I never said Watson couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn ... NEVER ... his misses weren’t near as bad as Jacksons ... thier innacuracy is in different worlds ...

So far .. i’ve been wrong on the accuracy with Watson .... he shocked the hell out of me last year ... its what ... 6 - 8 games into his career ... I wouldn’t go claiming victory just yet ... so far ... your definetly way out in front ... and i hope he proves me wrong ... hes a GREAT KID that i will root like hell for even though i’m a racist according to kingo ..

So it appears i was wrong about Watson and his accuracy .... i’ve Been wrong before and will be again ... when your an opionated ass like me its gonna happen and im gonna pay ... as it should be ...

Lets go down that road ed ... i’ll Admit ive been wrong plenty of times before ... u on the other hand ... let me hear it Ed ... were u right or wrong about RG3? .. i’ll be waiting ...

PS. U can give up your BS little act ... everytime someone doesnt agree with u about Lamar u chastise them for not wanting to have a discussion based on how u think the discussion should be ...

I dont think he’s ACCURATE ENOUGH to be an nfl QB ... thats what the TAPE TELLS ME ... not sure what else there is to discuss ... we just disagree and thats OK Ed ... it really is ....

PSS. Not a fan of the stats ... but u do present them in a very fair and honest way ... and even though we dont agree on ... ummm .. lets say the style of QB we like ... i enjoy reading u .. u see things from a far different perspective than i do .. and thats a good thing ... looking at things from all angles is always a smart thing to do IMO ..

Take that for what its worth Ed .. it doesnt always have to be a war or personal ... sometimes it can just be a simple disagreement ...

Ah man, say it ain't so, Diam.

So defensive...so personal..nothing about my post suggests there is a war nor supports half the claims you make.
That stuff originates from your end.

It takes away from your post when you mix all that stuff together.

People reading the conversation on Lamar can make their own decisions and the convo was supposed to be about Lamar not about me.

It is possible to have a discussion without all this...

That's the problem with message boards...or maybe it is my problem. I don't keep going back and restate everything I have said on this or other threads. I tend to keep my conversations flowing, then you read something here and think I want Jackson.

I think I said if Dorsey loves the guy, then I am good with the pick. I have said it before and will say it again, if I was picking, I would select Baker Mayfield. That's who I want.

The only thing that matters is who Dorsey wants.

Theres that victim crap .... your innocent and only want to talk football and i made it personal ... well ... this is the post from U i responded to ...

Like u said Ed ... EVERYONE CAN SEE FOR THEMSELVES .....

................................................................



Good football stuff ed ... nice un insulting first salvo .... then u bring up Watson and i counter with rg3 ... what’s wrong ed ... whats good for the goose ain’t good for the gander ... ...

I’m done ed ... i look forward to reading more of u ...

Enjoy sir ....

I'm glad you posted our exchange.
As for the rest of the post just another typical football convo with you, lol.

The Only thing that would be good about drafting Lamar Jackson is we would probably get Barkley and Chubb but please no ...

I like Lamar and think he will be a good player. I take him over Allen every day of the week and twice on Thursday.

I think I would take Darnold and Mayfield before him, but I wouldn't be upset if we ended up with Jackson. I really like Rosen but the concussions worry the bejebbers out of me.

I really don't like Allen at all. I would take Rudolph and White before him.

If the FO listens to eds break down of Lamar.

so many haters.

Here's what former #Cardinals head coach Bruce Arians had to say about Lamar Jackson.





https://twitter.com/JReidDraftScout/status/988058054464884737

If you get the chance to go back and look, I noticed something while trying to scout his left tackle Gereon Christian.

If seems as if a large number of Lamar's throws that are way off target occur when he tries to rev back and add some extra zip on the ball rather than just throwing it.

It was only one game but seemed to be a trend

Here's what I noticed with Lamar's accuracy.

He needs to open up his stride. I assumed its an easier fix then shortening a QB's base and Trent Dilfer confirmed my thoughts.

Lamar can get too narrow. He can get away with it sometimes...and sometimes its actually helpful like when the interior OL is pushed into his lap and he can't step up.

But the narrow base, imho is the cause of the majority of his misses because it changes the usual throwing mechanics off and reduced velocity.

One area where its definitely noticeable are the sideline out route and sideline comebacks. Lamar misses those more then any other throws that I saw. You can see it on film, he missed 2 at out routes at the combine and although he improved he still missed (2 iirc) out routes at his pro-day.

I am new here and juat got done reading through this whole thread.

I dont understand why anyone would hold it against Jackson for having the abilty to make plays with his legs, when he has shown the ability to be a pocket passer, in a pro style offense also. i hear him being called raw, when he is was more of a polished passer than Allen or Mayfield.

Only one quarterback played in an offense entirely based on his ability as a runner and that was Baker Mayfield. Take away the RPO and what is he?

I don't know why either?

I think casual fans/casual draft fans tend to accept whatever narrative the mainstream draft media puts out there. And most of the mainstream draft narratives lumps Lamar into a "dual threat" box and that is how they speak about him regardless of the actual film.

Then there is also the bias/misperception surrounding injuries and "dual threat" QBs.

Welcome to the board!

Did you watch an Oklahoma game this year? The RPO off the counter trey was Lincoln Riley's bread and butter. I'm not saying he's a running quarterback, but I am saying that his offense is based off the threat of him running it. If Lamar was given such a scheme, he would've won the Heisman three times.

Even without the RPO's he still a very efficient and experienced spread QB.

For me the efficiency is important. Production and efficiency are the signs of sound decision making and maximization of talent.

Now, due to scheme and personnel Baker had an easier road to achieve that efficiency so there is a question about the transition. But the efficiency is there.

Take it however you want it tab, you always do. Your owns words give you away.

Lol, its funny reading this from you since you ignore and insult the information that I post, lol.

I have posted the analysts that have Lamar as their top QB. And you know that I have. Do your own work and look them up. Danny Kannel, Bruce Gardkowski, Chris Simms, Bruce Arians. This is just more of your typical tap dancing.

And what difference does draft analyst opinion make anyway?
Its just a spurious point....how many analyst rate Baker as the top QB? Does that change anything?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone trusts their "eye ball". But your opinion that Lamar simply is not accurate is not supported by the stats or the film. Does he miss throws? Sure. But the notion that he's not accurate enough for the NFL describes a QB that gets drafted in the 5th round not the 1st or 2nd round.


Again your opinion that the only thing Lamar does well isn't supported by the stats or the film. Your opinion here parrots some of the main stream draft media sound bites and are actually express the opposite of the stats. But you already know that because I've already posted the info.

And let's not even talk about the fact that he plays in pro-style passing attack.

Mayfields accurate ... Jacksons not accurate ...

What else is left to say? ...

Absolutely NOTHING.

Unless you dig the PFF Stat BS.

Similar to what Bill O'Brien did for Deshaun Watson this year.

I say this because of the offenses that they run and the film I have watched. The huge majority of Mafields throws were one read quick hitters. Rarely did I see him stand in the pocket and go through progressions and find an open receiver.

On the flip side , I saw a lot of this out of Lamar Jackson. I think he can adapt quite well to an NFL offense.

This applies equally to all the QBs doesn't it?


I'm curious as to why you think he has a long way to go as passer, especially in comparison to the other QB prospects in this draft class?

I don't understand where this view comes from considering Lamar played in a pro-style passing offense without the benefit of RPOs and with fewer easy completions then the other offenses. Yet as passer when compared to the other non-spread QBs his production and numbers are right there and in many cases better then the other prospects.

Again, I don't understand where this notion comes from. Lamar runs an NFL style passing offense. Greg Cosell mentioned it, Bruce Arians mentioned it.
Louisville runs the Erhardt-Perkins offense just like the Bills, Patriots, Zona and the Chargers (iirc).

That's an interesting opinion. And maybe you're right. Maybe Lamar doesn't become a consistent high percentage passer. But, when you look at him in the context of his offense and look at advanced completion % which filters out drops, throw-aways and spikes he's already right there with Josh Rosen right now. Lamar PFF ACP 73.3. Rosen PFF ACP 74.6.

Every QB that is successful in the NFL has to become a better QB then they were college.

Imho Lamar has just as much a chance to improve as passer as the other prospects. Of the non-spread QBs he faced the 2nd most pressure behind Allen, he had the most drops and the fewest easy passes (behind/at the LOS etc).



An offense that is tailored to his skillset could be dynamic. But

But even if Lamar is put into a 'regular' offense he's still right there with the other prospects and he still brings his dynamic ability to make plays when the play breaks down.

...

Just a heads up ... that prolly wont be an in depth enough football analysis to meet ed’s standards ...

Oh noes, he throws with a narrow base when his true freshman center is bull rushed into his lap over and over or straight whiffs on his man. He'll never be able to fix that.

Your eyes may work, but it doesn't mean you know what you are looking at. NFL GMs miss on QBs. Context matters.

Josh Rosen may have gone 0-fer at Louisville this season. Jackson's OL was severely over matched pretty much every week they lined up. Lamar still managed to carry the team to 8 wins.

As a Browns fan, I've seen things go very badly when things break down. It happens pretty often. Josh Rosen doesn't perform particularly well in those situations. Lamar put up good numbers in a season overflowing with those situations.

The problem with looking at passes under pressure numbers is that they don't necessarily include all the times Lamar scrambled out of that pressure.

Yes, Jackson had some "wild" throws. When constantly running for your life and throwing while being hit, ugly looking results are going to happen. Yes, he sometimes rushed things and missed easy throws after dealing with defenders in his face for extended periods of time. However, he regularly gathered himself, bounced back, and made winning plays.

I'm not saying Lamar will be a great QB and Rosen will be terrible. I'm just saying that both are good college QBs, and comparing them isn't as crazy as you make it out to be.

I do believe you are right with your last line:

Originally Posted By: bonefish

How he develops is up to him. No different than the others.

I also think he is further along than you and others imply.

I apologize if this comes off as overly harsh. I woke up at 3 and couldn't get back to sleep and am just now having coffee. The argument against him in general just irks me. Having a critique is fine, but it feels like a lot of people are completely writing him off. I feel like people don't consider the situation a player is in enough. Imagine the top QBs at Oklahoma, and they're all amazing. Imagine the top QBs at Louisville, and I've got to cringe. Darnold might have had 100 turnovers and Rosen might not have survived. Mayfield might have done okay, but I definitely would have expected a dip in his production. I might be slightly guilty of writing Allen off myself.