DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Report: Baker Not ready to compete with Tyrod

No offense, but I have disagreed w/that take of yours for years.

You think that it will be successful in the NFL because it is successful in college.

I strongly disagree.

Those gimmicky offenses get destroyed in the pros. They work at first, but defenses catch up and QBs get the crap beat out of them and the turnovers and losses pile up. See Chip Kelly as just one example.

I am not one to say that colleges need to change their offenses to fit the pros because they don't owe the pros a thing, but the NFL isn't going to change for something that won't have sustained success in the pros.

I've said this several times w/the most recent being in reply to Diam about post snap reads.........but I really believe that most fans and a significant percentage of the media has no clue as to how post-snap reads and going through progressions actually work.

Spread offenses w/their one read and then bail philosophy are elementary and there is no way that they are more advanced than what the NFL is doing in regards to the passing game.

And again, I am not bashing you. Just trying to explain.

I think this very thing is why there is occasional resurgences in talks/rumors about the NFL wanting a developmental league.

The NCAA teams don't give a damn about the NFL or preparing kids for it - they're out to win their conferences in the here-&-now, but that leaves the NFL guys sifting through guys that don't fit or are grossly underprepared to try to fill holes.

This is how we have so much mediocrity at QB in this league, and it is probably the biggest reason that "parity" doesn't seem to be a thing in the NFL despite how things are set up. The teams that are consistently on top simply have solved the QB question.... so, year after year after year, those are the teams that are legitimately in the hunt as long as the rest of their team hasn't take a huge hit. All the others rise and fall as different aspects of their teams carry them - a good defense, or a poor QB gets hot for one season until he gets figured out, or a RB has a breakout year, etc.... but, then they all falter.

Good post.

And again, I don't think the colleges need to coddle to the NFL. They need to win games. Shoot........I coached high school and the pressure to win was immense. There are so many experts out there.

I completely agree w/you that you gotta get the qb thing right. We drafted Baker. I would not have done that. But, I'm just a dummy on a message board. I hope I am wrong and Dorsey is right in believing in the "Hee Hee" thang.

Alex Smith to me is an interesting story. He really didn't or couldn't do much in the NFL until Harbaugh and company came along. Not suggesting Jim Harbaugh is the greatest coach ever, but he was able to turn Smith into a decent QB. Similarly, I feel Cam Newton was well-coached during his transition to the more pro-style offense as well. So I feel a lot of Mayfield's career hinges on the coaching he receives. But I can certainly see the concern with this style offense transitioning to the NFL.

They just tend not to take smart-ass decisions and out-smart themselves.

You can see how good organizations like the Giants, Falcons,Eagles draft when they are on the top of the draft. Bills,Browns, etc

Alex's story is interesting because there was no consistency before Harbaugh.

He a lot of the time felt like he had to do it all by himself, because in those early years all he really had was Davis. Reid was able to settle him down in KC...

You should also see decent production from him with Jay Gruden as his coach this year too...

I'd say that I have to agree with you in terms of the NFL O's changing to adapt to college QB systems. To me the problem with that line of thought is that NFL D's aren't going to change to make those QB's productive.

The speed and diversity of talent on NFL D's is the reason why those gimmicky O's like Chip Kelly's soon get sniffed out and solved. That's not going to change.

U can be a GREAT QB in college with a very very high completion% and still not be ACCURATE ...

U will NOT SURVIVE in the NFL no matter how good your legs are if u are NOT ACCURATE ...

For that reason Peen will be waiting another 10 years + for the nfl to switch to tebowesque QB’s ...

Mr. Peen please tell Vince, Colin and Robert that Tim said hi ...

PS. Baker is extremely accurate and he is mobile but no where’s near fleet of foot ... he was EXTREMELY ACCURATE in college, we’ll see if it translates into the pros ... obviously the folks on Vers’s list skill sets didn’t translate to the nfl ... that don’t mean Bakers won’t .. BUT if it does .. it is not some sign that the landscape for NFL QB’s has shifted ...

I would have also liked to have seen what Bradford could have done w/o going to Jeff Fisher out of the gate and then all the injuries ... his skill set very well may have translated very nicely to the nfl ...

I'm not going to debate with you or Vers about detailed matters of football. However, I take Peen's comments with a little less edge than maybe you or Vers.

First of all, I believe there HAS been a shift or tendency in (some) NFL offenses to incorporate some of the things said QB was asked to do in college. The RPO and regular rolling out of a QB are designed to help said QB deal with their inexperience or gaps in the pro game...right? Good NFL coaches are being forced to incorporate many of the QB's college game into today's offense while that QB develops. Essentially on-the-job training.

How extensive will be that shift? I don't think enough to really change the way offenses are run in the NFL...at least not in the short-term. But I could see a developmental league that others have posted about on here AND a continued effort by the NFL via rule-changes to 'help' offenses deal with continually getting 'raw' players due to the spread of gimmicky offenses in the college game.

I don't think the change will be dramatic...but I don't thing Peen is completely out in left field here either.

The only issue I see here is that what is being used and introduced from College in the NFL, is not what Baker has been doing or known for...

You could probably use this argument to draft Wentz, Deshaun Watson or Lamar, Mayfield I don't see...

I honestly don't see any innovations on the Air Raid OU offense, and if anything we see the NFL moving away from the West Coast Offense (I could be wrong because I'm a bit biased against WCO)

You are calling me clueless? You think that Baker isnt short for a QB, Oklahoma doesnt play a spread offense and Baker didnt just run a 4.85 at the combines. I like Baker and I am a defender of him but to ignore his negatives doesnt do anyone any good.

He took what 3 snaps from under center in 4 years. His immaturity on and off the field is well documented. Georgia DL chased him down over and over. It was acutally my favorite game of his to breakdown. He plays up on his toes making himself taller in the pocket because he is short.

I think Baker is gonna a good QB. Right now, he is just a short, immature, slow footed spread QB that must overcome his negatives to be successful in this league. i wont bet against the kid because I see things in his game that is special.

It's the world we live in today. You can't have a middle ground. You can't see both good and bad. You have to pick a side, see nothing but one extreme or the other. Subjectivity has lost its luster.

I think you should speak for yourself. I don't live in that world...but there is much of that in my world.

People read your posts.

I don't take it as a bash at all. This is akin to sitting at the bar, drinking a few brews and chewing the fat.


I see it has already started to change. I can't remember exactly what I said since it was 10-12 years ago as to when it would happen, but it is happening now. Each year fewer and fewer QB's enter the league with a pro concept background.

It's because there aren't many HS programs running the system. I am sure there was a time when people said the single wing offense was the only way the game should or could be played. You know, back when beaver coats were in style and singing Boola Boola was the song.


You saw a article today that pointed out the same things are changing for O-linemen....a good read. The way they play has changed.


We can call Chip Kelly a gimmick coach, but is he any more of a gimmick coach than Don Corell, or even Paul Brown? Nobody sent in plays like he did. The Browns were considered a gimmick team when we entered the NFL .

Things change

I agree that things change. I don't mean to sound arrogant or like a know-it-all here........but peen, the defenses in the NFL are really, really good and putting in an offense where the qb has one read and can't change the plays under center is a recipe for disaster.

I do know that parts of college offenses have been used in NFL offenses. Never disputed that. There are good aspects in Spread offenses. However, running an offense like Oklahoma's in the NFL would result in you getting destroyed.

I agree. I am not saying it will be a total change. QB's have to be able to check in to a different play if you want to be good. I mean, why run on a run stack D?

There will be some middle ground, but as time goes on it keeps swinging further away form what might be considered the norm for NFL systems.


I am not saying you are wrong. I am just saying the percentages say it will change.


As for the D, the players on the O will catch up as the scouting catches up. No doubt you have to draft for what it is you want to do.

I'm not trying to speak for tab, just adding my two cents.

I think all of us Baker supporters get a bad rap. We are merely defending a lot of the false takes on the guy and double standards by many posters and that turns into us repeating the same things over and over.

For instance I've read many times on this board that Baker has a weak or noodle arm. Baker probably has the best arm in this class next to Josh Allen.

Also Baker ran a 4.85... Darnold also ran a 4.85 and Rosen ran a 4.92. But no one calls them "slow footed." It's honestly not really relevant, but it's considered a knock on him.

Baker processes very very quickly. He made pre-snap adjustments and post-snap reads. He throws accurately with anticipation. Is the offense Baker played in a good offense to transition from to the NFL? Not normally, no. However, the offense he played in never really had a guy like Baker at the helm, either.

Ok yeah, there are concerns, but I think most of these are just reaches. There's a reason he was drafted over every other quarterback in the draft and not because the Browns were just being the Browns. I think the majority of the teams would have taken Mayfield over all the others... But I guess we are just gonna have to wait and see as he yet again proves all his doubters wrong.

I agree w/some of your takes and disagree w/others.

First of all, it seems like the guys who love Baker resort to insults and name-calling way too often. There was no reason for tab to call others "clueless." Mourg actually likes Baker and was just giving his honest opinion on him. He didn't deserve to be called "clueless."

I also don't know where you are getting that he is making all of these post-snap reads and throwing w/anticipation. I'm not saying he won't be able to do those things, but he wasn't asked to in Oklahoma's offense. He also has only played a handful of plays under center. That's a concern.

Are you sure that Baker has the second strongest arm? I haven't read where people are knocking his arm, but are you sure it's the second strongest?

Speed? Not a big deal. It's just that Baker runs around a lot and Rosen doesn't. If you wanna use your legs, speed is a good asset to have.

I'm not knocking Baker. He might turn out to be a great qb. I just get irritated when Baker's biggest fans start character assassinations of anyone who dares expressing some concerns about the guy.

Having questions is not being a doubter ... HUGE DIFFERENCE ...

I rag on U (point out) cause U won’t admit that grabbing his crotch or throwing the ball at the other team during pre-games was NOT AN IMPULSIVE ACT .... thats called LYING TO YOURSELF in my world ...

I rag on U (point out) because u don’t think those actions hurt the team even though he cost them 15 years and he was benched for a series or a quarter for one of the incidents ... a 15 yard penalty OR getting benched for even a play is the DEFINITION OF HURTING THE TEAM ... just cause they won doesn’t mean it DIDN’T HURT THE TEAM ... it simply means his DUMB ASS ACTIONS didn’t COST THE TEAM A GAME ..

Notice that last sentance ... HIS actions didn’t COST the TEAM a LOSS ....

I fit into NONE of the little boxes u pigeon hole others into ...

- 100% on board with taking him even though i wanted Sam I Am ... i was getting behind this pick REGARDLESS of who it was ...

- I’ve never said a negative word about Baker ... not even when POINTING OUT your over zealous defense of his CLEARLY DUMB ACTS and the fact that folks have legite concerns that don’t bother U or I so much ... were way more in the same camp than opposite camps ... difference is I think he has a decent shot ... your ready to get his bust started all ready ...

FACT IS ... we have NO CLUE who the best QB in this class will be ... NONE ... hell it could be Mason Rudoplh or even Lamar ... u goback over the last 20 drafts and I bet u the QB taken first didn’t end up the best QB in the draft more times than they did ... see: TOM BRADY .... JOE MONTANA ... how many qb’s went before them in their drafts .. how many qb’s went before Brees and Wilson IN THERE DRAFTS... who would u rather have GOFF or WENTZ ...

- I think (HOPE) his two incidents in college that worry me were just him being inmature and getting caught up in the moment that led to DUMB ASS ACTIONS ... thats more than possible ...

- i know he has plenty of arm strength ...

- im not worried about his height but it is a legite concern ... FACT is taller QB’s have a hUGE ADVANTAGE but his height is not a killer ... other QB’s of his size and stature can thrive .. (Brees is a GREAT example ... Wilson not so much ... Wilson plays a different game than Baker .. ) ...

- i believe he is ACCURATE .. i also have questions about weather his accuracy will translate for the following reasons ... that are all LOGICAL and FACTUAL ...

1. He threw into almost no small windows ... way to small a sample size for me
2. He had guys running wide open all over the field ...
3. We have NO CLUE if he can process info fast enough or if he can anticipate recievers open CAUSE HE DIDNT HAVE TO DO IT IN COLLEGE ...

There’s more dude ... but i’[ve WASTED ENOUGH TIME on this all ready ...

U have an issue with Vers and glom the BS U and /vers go through onto others

Vers asked a real legite question ...

WHO ARE THE DOUBTERS???? ... IT CERTAINLY ISNT ME .. i have LEGITE QUESTIONS but that don’t make me a DOUBTER ... just like theres plenty of Legite questions theres also plenty to LOVE about the kid ... but until the questions are answered ... we simply don’t know ...

And IMO Vers is no angel in this BS that regularly ruins threads but I would not call him a doubter cause i know him rather well ... he does have LEGITE CONCERNS that U just won’t accept ...

You are calling me clueless?

Not sure, I think it was ratsplan...lol
Short...all that means is a deeper drop in the pocket and he is sitting like a 6'5" QB. Small, taller than Brees and a tad shorter than Rodgers. I think its a moot point as he does not have a problem of getting passes knocked down. I think Height is over rated as those 2 QBs dropped due to height and they have changed the aura about it.

Those facts about 40 speed and spread...what does that have to do with the quality of a football player. Negatives? no facts that don't mean diddly.

I saw him take 3 snaps from under center in one game so your fake fact about snaps under center are getting you close to that clueless statement even if it wasn't meant for you...lol

Documented...one occasion on his 21st birthday celebration he got drunk and campus police caught him (cause state school its State Police) he was drunk and made a drunk choice. But you and others state this as if it defines him or something...hmmm maybe you are clueless.

As for on the field yeah not what you want from a choir boy...The Browns don't need a choir boy and outside of an Inhouse 1 quarter suspension he did not put his team in jeopardy. He took a lot more crap than he dished out. You act as if he will be doing the same things as a NFL professional. On second thought, keep the clueless reference, you earned it.

Right now, you and I will include myself we don't know what he is but Short as a negative, I don't see that as a problem what evidence do you have that its a problem...TT btw is shorter. Immature, as a Brown what evidence do you have that he is immature as a Brown, what has he done verbally or physically that leads you to believe that he is.

Slow footed for what? He's not a running QB he does have mobile capabilities...what makes you think that its a negative and an existing issue.

Hmmm 100% clueless have a nice day....

It's funny. You toss around names like that but throw a fit and claim people are picking on you when you receive the same treatment. Everybody can see it.

Everyone understands you tab, when you lose an argument you start throwing out insults. It is who you are and who you have been since the board started. You pretend to want to debate but as soon as you see yourself being proven wrong, you hit attack mode. So be it. Call me what you want if that's what it takes to make you feel better.

j/c

One of the things that always stood out to me is how Baker would stand tall in the pocket - or as tall as a 6' QB can stand. His pocket presence is impressive and noticeable. He holds the ball and sets his feet - seemingly at all times - ready to cut loose of the ball. Like a good 3pt shooter in basketball always has his feet set before receiving the basketball. Lastly, I'm regularly impressed at how he slides around in the pocket. He'll slide and instantly be in a throwing position when/if the play allows.

I do see where he relies a lot on his arm strength and doesn't use his core and legs like the great ones do. Then again, I don't remember Brady at a young age being great with his core and legs...so I would think that is something he will need to improve upon in the NFL. I expect he will quickly see that a very good and accurate arm becomes even better when assisted by the core and leg muscles. Not to mention that no one escapes father time.

I cannot recognize whether he is good at post-snap reads. Without knowing who is the primary target on a play, I think that is difficult to ascertain - it is for me anyway. I HAVE seen him stick in or around the pocket and find what appears to be NOT his primary read as the play breaks down. At the same time, I think that staying calm and finding an open guy does not necessarily equal being good at post-snap reads.

There is a lot to like with this guy...and a few issues that would be hard to evaluate with any rookie QB.

Baker put up huge numbers and made many great throws. He bought extra time by scrambling around behind the LOS.

I can't say that I agree w/him standing tall in the pocket, though. Oklahoma had the nation's best OL [according to most people who discuss such things] and Baker had a lot of time to throw. I think he bailed too many times when he didn't need to. I think this is something he will need to work on in the NFL. He should be able to improve on it. The only scary thing is that he playing behind Taylor, and Taylor holds the ball way too long and leaves the pocket too early and too often.

Hopefully he won't pick up that trait from TT.

There is something about Baker that I really grew to like during his senior year...and I despise on-filed antics and demonstrations. Maybe he's got the "it" factor and that is what I was seeing. Who knows for sure? I can hope I suppose. His on and off the field presence is impressive outside of a few stupid decisions/antics.

Related note: My season ticket buddy was so done with McCown his last year here. He didn't want McCown around any of the young QBs in fear they would learn how to play from him. It was funny because my buddy is usually pretty reserved...but he'd really go off on McCown that last year he was here. He was all about McCown as the off-filed mentor though. I don't have much issue with TT, but I understand and see the concerns of him tending to hold the ball.

I remember seeing and reading that his OU o-line was very good...and I do remember him frequently having a lot of time to throw. I also like the way he bought time with his feet.

It's interesting that with his height issue, his line was as tall or taller than the Browns oline last year. I would think that that bodes well for him to find throwing lanes...since he's surely always had to do that at his height.

Don't know if this has been posted before but it falls in line with a lot of the discussion here. Very good video with a chat between Baker and Russell Wilson. They talk about being "short", understanding throwing lanes and arm angles and buying time with your feet.

They also talk about "passion" as Baker says he might very well hate losing more than he actually loves winning. The letdown of not making it to the championship game, how to take losing as stride as a leader, etc...

One thing I always see in Baker - a genuine interest in learning from the people who have done it. He seems to absorb all advice rather than nod and act like he already knows it, which I see many young athletes do.

This, a thread where people complain about Baker and "maturity issues". lmao

I have been racking my brain as to why Dorsey drafted Baker since the day he did so. I do see some of the qb skills that he has, but in my mind, he is a project because of the offense he played in. Additionally, he is short for a qb. He scrambles, but is not fast. I think he is a question mark as a qb. He could end up being very good, but I think the bust potential is rather high.

So, I'm thinking and thinking and the only real answer I could come up with is that I think Dorsey fell in love w/Baker because he believes Baker has "it." It took me awhile to embrace that concept because of Baker's series of incidents that could lead some to question his character.

However, I think Dorsey sees an intense competitor. A guy who can lead teammates. A guy who can overcome significant odds. A guy who has the utmost confidence in himself. I think Dorsey sees some of himself in Baker.

Dorsey might be right. He might have put too much emphasis on "it." We'll see. But, there is one thing I do know...........he damn well better be right, because not too many folks that I respect had Baker as their top-rated qb.

I also think that leadership, arm talent, accuracy to all levels, and ability place the ball effectively all played a part.

I was ..... stunned when he took Baker, but hopefully he's right about him. I have long held the opinion that he will be a solid to average type QB, but the jury is still out.

We'll see. I hope that he'll be as great as Dorsey, obviously, believes.

Could also be a DePodesta, Stats driven Pick... PTF loves Mayfield...

If it was because of the IT factor, Dorsey would have never had drafted Mahomes... if any QB prospect had the IT factor in the last decade it was Deshaun Watson, yet Mahomes was the one picked by Dorsey.

Baker was never at Manziel level regarding the IT factor... that's just sweetening the pill. BM was for most the product of an efficient system, that IMHO, makes it very hard to project QB's future in the NFL.

quote by rastan:



I suspect a third possibility.

The other viable options at pick #1 made it clear they would not be happy playing for the Browns.

But then you did not need to draft a QB with the first.

If we drafted Saquan #1 and Mayfield #4 I would actually understand and be OK.

Even trading either #1 or #4 for Nick Foles...

There were so many possibilities this year...

Mayfield is, IMHO, the perfectly Stats engineered QB, so it had to be a stats fanatic to push for him (DePodesta was just me kidding with Vers)

You may actually not believe or even care, but I actually respect both Vers and Eotab points on Baker Mayfield.

I actually think that BM is a Vers Type of QB, I can see some Garappollo on BM (except the attitude), but like him, I think we can only be sure when we see him play in the NFL, and for sure not worthy being picked ahead of Rosen.

Regarding Eo's points, I actually struggle to see anything special on BM, much more than for example on Wentz. But have to give him credit on the Wentz thing...

My main point with BM, is not that I dislike him, its that I just think its crazy what we did with the QB position, with so many option we go for TT and BM... that's just crazy.

I'd agree. I don't care for the name calling. I'm not going to speak for tab but I'm guessing he's frustrated with the board. I love tab's posts however, especially when he talks offensive line.



I've watched him play and read what his coach had to say about him. Whether or not he was asked, he still did them. I think Dorsey loved the fact Mayfield learned the playbook in two days. The Oklahoma offense also ran thru Baker. It was as if he was asked to just run around and heave passes like Johnny.





Yes. And if you haven't seen the posts, they're out there. Not as many now as pre-draft because I think many realized they were wrong.




I think one of the main misconceptions about baker. He's not a running quarterback. In fact Darnold had more rushing yards one season than Baker did. Johnny rushed for more yards his heisman year than Baker did his entire career. I recall you commenting that Baker had happy or scared feet in the pocket. I thought that was one of his pluses as he was about to create if necessary. Baker would probably be labeled a pocket passer over anything else.

Jury hasn’t even been seated yet bro ...

I admitted "premeditated" was the incorrect phrasing... and I noticed you dropped the word "issues" which is MY ISSUE with this whole thing. Saying you don't care for his antics is one thing, but saying you think he has issues is a completely different story. Yes, winning is my #1 concern. I think Baker's antics actually help his team, not hurt.




That's fine. And I apologize if you felt I did. Most of the time I'm generally speaking, not specifically to one person, like now.


I also don't have issues with any posters. I gather certain posters have issues with me, however. I just speak how I feel and I believe Baker could be one of the greatest quarterbacks either in Browns history (probably not a far walk) or in the NFL. Do I know this to be fact, heck no. But signs and things I watch and read and learn says he's going to be great. I'm stoked. This is certainly a good time to be a Browns fan.






This is fair. You're not doubting him, but you have concerns. I don't have the same concerns. A lot of the concerns I see, have already been debunked in my mind. I don't think his speed will be an issue. I don't think his on field antics will be an issue. I don't think his height will be an issue.

I see people question his maturity. I don't believe there are maturity issues, either. Someone with maturity issues isn't the type of leader Baker is or gain the followers he does.



I get people want to be cautious, but I'm all in. I bought my Browns Mayfield jersey 4 weeks prior to the draft. This was without a doubt the best move the Browns could have made. This kid is going to be great. And if he flops, I'm prepared to eat crow from those on this board who were convinced he will.