Link

A little discouraging, and from the writer. I mean, in no way shape or form, should ANY rookie really be ready to complete after 6 OTA practices.....what a joke. Wentz wasn't even ready to compete at this time.

________________________________________________

A year after the Browns thrust then-rookie quarterback DeShone Kizer into a Week One starting role, the Browns appear intent to do the opposite, keeping quarterback Baker Mayfield on ice for as long as possible.


If that’s the plan, Mayfield is making it easier to implement. Here’s an assessment of the competition, if there is one, between Mayfield and Tyrod Taylor, from Dan Labbe of the Cleveland Plain Dealer: “This is where I tell you that, based on the six practices of OTAs and minicamp that were open to the media, Mayfield did not look ready to compete with Taylor for the No. 1 quarterback job.”

Of course, Mayfield has a habit of taking over quickly, like he did as a walk on at Texas Tech and then as a transfer at Oklahoma. And if Mayfield somehow becomes the clear-cut best option in Cleveland, the Browns may have no choice but to play him.

The deck seems to be stacked in Taylor’s favor, however. And here’s another possible reason for it, one that won’t get mentioned during many/any press conferences: G.M. John Dorsey may be betting on someone other than Hue Jackson coaching the team next year, and Dorsey may want Mayfield to be handled not by Jackson but by his successor.

Regardless, Mayfield was picked to be the long-term starter. Whether that includes short-term remains to be seen.

Its June bro ... hes been in the systems for less than 2 months ...

We’ll know a lot more when he comes back for TC .. NOW is when he will learn a ton and we’ll see how he handles it when he gets back ...

I don’t expect him to be ready to handle things good enough to unseat TT but if he is we won’t find out til camp at the earliest ..

I would guess Baker’s head is buried in the playbook and he is talking to a wide range of folks trying to gain as much knowledge as he can and i would imagine he’s spending a TON OF TIME IN THE VIRTUAL REALITY thing that Keenum used last year ...

This is key time for Baker’s learning curve ... lets see what the slope looks like when he gets back at the end of next month ...

That what I meant. The article is discouraging as it pertains to the writer. he should know better that after 6 OTA practices, there is no real way to evaluate ANYONE. Let alone a QB. I think this guys editor should be worried.

Good point ... they may wanna transfer him to the World Cup for now ... *L* ...

Why? You took the article and shared it. The Editor has already won.

I'd have been amazed if after 2 months in the system he was ready to go....

I believe if you take the article in its context it makes perfect sense. Nobody should expect Baker to be ready to compete for the #1 QB spot at this early stage. I believe the reporter simply stated the obvious.

You have an eight year veteran in Taylor with four years as a starter going up against a kid who was drafted less than two months ago. I think the way you take the article is more about perception than what was actually written.

I would give Baker all the time he needs no need rushing him, Taylor will do fine for a year or even more if need be ... JMHO

Pit, I think when the writer deals in facts it does make sense. It is when he strays into his creative writing mode with crap about the by Dorsey’s wants Baker on the bench that he gets wacky.

I tend to agree with you there.

I read this yesterday ... I think Tyrod knows the NFL really well (he's seen all levels) and is a phenomenal leader/preparer. Baker shouldn't be there yet.

I do hope he improves under center though.

Ugh, soccer.

I remember flipping through the channels one day and hearing the announcer say "This is the most exciting nil-nil game I have ever seen."

When a goalie can sit in a lawn chair for 90% of a game is it a sport?

I think the writer was just trying to take a jab at Hue.

It's an acquired taste. I couldn't stand soccer 20+ years ago...I just didn't "get" it. Then my then-5-year old son started playing and playing well...after watching about 50 games (at various levels), the light came on for me. I too can enjoy a nil nil game now. Crazy...I know.

Agreed...I thought that jab was BS...and I'm not exactly a Hue fan. That was just goofy and unnecessary.

You echo my sentiment.

Yea , That Idiot Mike Florio was spouting the same crap. "Dorsey doesn't want Hue to touch Baker since he will be fired at the end of the year anyway.." Amazing how these talking heads even stay on the air. Lawyers and Politicians should be BANNED from any sports talk. Florio tries to be both.

Well, we know he has had plenty to choose from!

Same thing here ... I HATED soccer ... my nephew started when he was a kid, he’s 16 now ... its much better than i thought ... i appreciate the play a lot more since learning about the game ..

Funny what kids can do for U ...

Not even at training camp and a rookie QB vs a seasoned vet who has actually had success and he's not ready? Gee, ya don't think?

It's like throwing hot water in the freezer and expecting ice in the pending ten seconds.

________________________________________________





"Dorsey may want Mayfield to be handled not by Jackson but by his successor."

This is nonsense.

Because it's as much about the game as it is the points.... right?

I agree. If Dorsey wanted a different coach to handle the 1st pick QB, he would have insisted on picking his own coach from day 1.

Very much so.

1. TT is actually a GOOD QB.

2. From what I have listened to what BM has stated is he is at this time looking to work on his game to become the best NFL QB he can be. He is not looking to make plays and improvise the position. He is working on parts of the game that is not in his comfort level so that in the near future they will be. He is more concerned with his 3 n 5 step drops and perfecting that to become 2nd nature then his connections with WRs.

3. I suspect he will probably be ready to "COMPETE" around 2-3 games into the season. Which basically the COMPETITION is over by then. What happens when training camp starts, you never know he is a fast learner.

jmho

I don't care how good or bad Tyrod is or isn't as long as he is good enough to not grossly hold back the development of the rest of the offense and isn't consistently killing us the way that position has in recent years.

If he achieves that much, he will be one of the best pickups we've made in a decade.

As for Baker - I don't care if he is "ready" or "not ready". I don't want to see him at all this year unless we are blowing out an opponent 47-3. If he ends up on the field, we've failed in other areas, and I prefer that not be the case.

This i agree with kind of. Especially Tyrod. I'm not expecting as special as some of these articles seem to be making him out to be. But the biggest thing is, he's a sense of stability as we install a new offense.

It's one thing to learn a new offense. It's another to be a Rookie QB learning a completely different offense than the one you knew in college and adjusting to simply being an NFL QB.



Whether Baker is better than Tyrod individually is one thing. I want what's best for Our Offense as a whole. I think a veteran is that. Had these guys been playing in the same system for years, I could see more of a competition. But as they aren't, I want as much stability at the QB position as possible as the offense gels together. Baker can be plugged in later.


My mindset is that Baker is the QB of the future. That's the overall plan. Tyrod is a one year rental, pretty much no matter what. And once we play Baker, we can't stop. So we better be real sure before we put him in, because once he's in, that's it for the foreseeable future

I think you're very accurate. I mean we read the hype every year. This year even if you read between the lines we do have a lot more talent. IMO there's no way not to see the improvement. Yet at the same time I try to keep it real.

Taylor is not the best thing since sliced bread. The odds of him making some huge stride after eight years in the league and four years as a starter aren't realistic. Impossible? No. Likely? Most certainly not.

He is enough of an improvement for us to win some games. He'll do just fine as a place holder. But the above posts have certainly pointed out his flaws and limitations.

Those who underestimate him will be pleasantly surprised. Those who overestimate him will be very disappointed. The truth squarely lies somewhere in the middle with him. Nobody in the NFL is trading away great QB's for a third round pick. Price does matter.

j/c

I wouldn't say Tyrod is a good QB, but he's very seasoned and experienced ... he KNOWS how to play QB in the NFL. Honestly, this is the best case scenario for a #1 overall pick IMO.

The last few posts have been very solid. Good thoughts.

I don’t expect it to happen ... i think Baker has to much to overcome to be ready and I am no fan of TT but he’s not a bum by any stretch ...

But what i don’t understand is that if Baker is ready and can play like Dak, Wentz or Watson there rookie year and PROVE HES READY why in the heck U wouldn’t want him to play ...

If by some minor miracle Baker comes back and has a full grasp of the O and his drops and everything else that goes along with it and he is proving to be able to read D’s and be able to keep up with the speed of the game .... i don’t understand why some would want him riding the pines ...

I don’t get that for one second ... i don’t see it happening ... nothing short of a minor miracle ... but to sit him just to sit him doesn’t make sense to me ...

Once the season starts then how TT is playing will become a factor .... what i do agree with is if TT is not playing good and Baker is not ready even if hes better than TT i still would not want him in ...

NO BAKER TIL HE’S READY!!!!

I agree, and disagree.


I want him to play when he is ready to play.

I don't want it to be that he is't going to play until the 17th game of his career. Now, if he isn't ready, maybe it is never.

He is the future. There is no saying we have to see what he can do in games so we know what to do in the draft, but I don't want to predetermine a set number of games that he should sit.

The flip side; we've all heard, from national media and from opponent's fans, that "Cleveland is the place where QBs go to die." Then comes the parade of names of QB's whose careers started in Cleveland and went nowhere. How many guys have we rushed into a role they aren't ready for? Kessler and Kizer in just the last 2 years.

If Baker is ready, and I mean ready to shine, then absolutely put him in and don't look back. But if there is any question, err on the side of caution and keep him in the bubble wrap for a year. Don't risk the investment just to see an early return.

Don't risk the investment at any cost... certainly not in Week 1. Could we actually sit here and agree the Browns should start a rookie QB, Week 1? Only one condition should make that possible, TT is injured.

If Baker is shining at the end of preseason, with no real game time. he'll be a shooting star by week 8... Just by getting more snaps in practice and watching an NFL team, and an NFL QB, work through planning and executing an offensive game plan from week to week. Forget the fact that "shining" in the way Diam describes is very few and far between for rookie QBs. Yes, I agree, if so... get excited, but DO NOT put the horse ahead of the cart.

We're not looking at ending our futility at QB as the final hump in competing for a championship. Let's go out there and establish an offense that can actually compete at an NFL level, with a QB that has proven he can, before we let the Baker Mania begin.

BSPN loves to trture us with that cheap shot stat, heard them throw it out yesterday on air at end of a "show" for no good reason. They hate Cleveland and love to do this demeaning crap. The guy was grinning and enjoyed the cheap shot as he delivered the smarmy numbers, and he sounded proud of himself for being such a clever little cliche. What about something worthwhile and now instead of the endless cheap shot? We could call it news.

I turned them off for the rest of the day. Their "experts" and general stories apparently require this. Not just that they do it repeatedly; it's how much they relish it. It sucks at about 4000 PSI in my opinion.

Ok...lol

just for the record BM got a pretty good report from Hue on his progress so far and so much still to come in Training camp. Again Good or Bad? well actually you do care lol cause to achieve what you are asking is him being good. Talking TT now.

But of course we haven't seen football yet to state one way or another 100% we can only speculate on what we have seen from TT in the past.

Yes, I too would love to have TT successful and keep BM on the bench. We have division rivals who take advantage of no respect from officiating in protecting our QB in the past that can lead to BM coming in sooner than expected. I mean Kessler was put out twice in his rookie season with blows to the head one a flag was thrown but the other a clear shot to the head and only the head as it was from a LB coming horizontally and put him out of the game (pretty sure Bengals?) and now flag thrown. We have countless of none calls not protecting our QBs. I'm hoping that will change. But it is something I have come to expect.

Not ready to compete yet, so true he has a lot to learn as we just got through OTA's, I'd like for us to review this later on and see what he is ready for around our 3rd preseason game. But as you stated TT is a solid QB and I don't see any rookie ahead of him by game #1.

jmho

j/c

I think everyone should keep in mind that we were 4-0 in preseason last year. That's against vanilla O's and D's. I would caution everyone from drawing some conclusion that a rookie QB is ready to start in the NFL based on preseason results.

We look good on paper, but that's paper. Those teams had solid players all around - running games, defenses, or WR at the top of their games.

Don't get me wrong, Jarvis, hyde, chubb, duke, etc are getting us there. But that's on paper. We still are a BIG question mark. I don't want to rush BM.

Has anyone noticed .. what we see as vast improvement, the national media, NFL.com, ESPN .. etc still see as a power rating of # 32 out of 32 and picked to draft # 1 next year. They do give us credit for moving up to Pro level ( rather than High School ) but still do not rate us as high as we, Browns fans, think we should be rated.

Even if Baker goes lights out in preseason, I want Taylor executing the offense when schemes and game plans start getting into the equation. We invested in this situation, let's execute it and let Baker continue to learn for TT and Stanton.

Jmo of course.

I'm not really saying that per say. I just know we are all desperate for a winner. I know that during every preseason our fans, at least many of them, place far too much value on what they see in preseason. They fall for the shiny apple like it's somehow representative of real NFL games. They begin to feel that what a QB does against some vanilla D is some clue of how he will play in real NFL games against teams prepared for you playing much more complex schemes.

After which we hear how great the rookie QB looks. How he should be the starter after the first game or two if mistakes are being made. It's just a never ending story around here. I doubt my posts will have any impact but let's just say it's a prediction of the same tired re-run I've seen on these boards since 2001.

j/c:

Colin Cowherd = Owned


https://twitter.com/camdasilva/status/1009845342198812672 (video clip)

One of the things that the national media doesn't remember is that we lost 3-4 games to turn overs in the red zone. If we clean those up (TT's lack of TO), and improve 2-3 games, that's 5-7 wins. I know the schedule is tougher this year, so I'm certainly not predicting 7 wins, but I think 5 is attainable and would shock many of the naysayers.

https://twitter.com/Browns/status/1009856104237617153

Apparently, he is doing the ESPN circuit today.

Then people saying .. "We have to see what we got in the rook, so we know what to do in the draft." As if "we" were the final say so over who plays. After all, we see all the practices; we are in all the meeting rooms. We know more than the coaches, who see and work with the players every day. Unless there are injuries that dictate a change in the plan, let's give Baker the full year to how to be an NFL QB.

2018 NFL 1st draft pick and 2017 Heisman Trophy winner Baker Mayfield joins Shannon Sharpe and Skip Bayless on Undisputed to talk about his journey to the NFL, being ready to compete in the NFL and playing behind Tyrod Taylor with the Cleveland Browns.





Rookie QB Baker Mayfield joins Colin Cowherd in studio to talk about his college career and what to expect from him now that he is on the Cleveland Browns.

Man, I don't know how you can watch these two interviews and not love this kid.

I can’t say I love him but I gotta say I have more respect for him.

more clips from both shows ..on OUDailey

http://www.oudaily.com/sports/oklahoma-f...f51c8cfb59.html

I'm impresseed with the way he handled himself,

great clips and while its not showing what he can do on the field and under center, he couldn't be more impressive. Doing Cowherd and knowing what was said about you before the draft, knowing Cowherd is gonna set up 'gotcha' topics, says a ton and he handled it well.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-to...e-with-that-guy

I couldn't tell if Cowherd was joking, hateful, being his normal hack self or all of the above.
Seriously trying to set off Mayfield. Kid stayed professional.

j/c

Cowherd has been ultra critical of Mayfield (and our selection of him) for months ... this was a ratings ploy to have Baker on and have him "destroy" Colin.

I did like his demeanor and confidence, but I do agree w/Cowherd about his psst "immaturity" issues. Hopefully Baker is all football now.

Without a doubt Cowherd was trying to get under Baker's skin and cause friction and have BM show some hostile reaction. For the next 2 months he would have been saying "I told you so"

Frankly I'll take the word of his team mates who loved him and Nate Burelson and Shannon Sharpe who also loved his attitude. It bothers me some that Bayless who I can't stand and won't listen to apparently loves BM.

It might have been good for ratings for Cowherd - but there was no obligation for BM to do that show and to me it says something about BM that he calmly wanted to go face to face with the douche media hack who has been saying such total garbage about him..... let's face it, questioning BM's maturity = not a big deal, very valid. questioning the defenses he faced and how his offensive stats will carry to the NFL = very valid. . . . saying BM was undraftable = contrived controversy by a media hack looking for attention.

I think we all owe Cowherd a thank you.

Let me explain: BM plays with a chip on his shoulder. "he cant do this, he cant do that. Hes not good enough, hes too small...he will never make it" That kid drives on fuel from negativity against him.

Well being the 1st pick in the draft, kinda takes some of that away from you. You cant say you are the underdog when you are the first pick in the draft, success is NOW EXPECTED. BM has never been EXPECTED to be successful.

Cowherds comments are going to re-light that fire in BM.

Kid has an excellent head on his shoulders. What's his name was fishing for BM to create some controversy but BM pretty much put an end to that real quick. As Haley said this is one of the best QB rooms he has seen in his long time career. TT is a very good QB and LEADER. So good for BM to watch as example and the mentoring will be done by Stanton who does not have to concentrate on starting but know a heck of a lot about the NFL.

Man I love this, only thing bothering me is that it just seems too good to be true, its scary that we got this good this fast!

jmho

Much can be learned by shutting up, observation and listening. He seems to understand that pretty well.

yep ... shutting up is a key part, and a tricky part given a few things:

1. He's the #1 pick
2. He'll be on Hard Knocks
3. He has his own show
4. The media is all over him

He has no persona. That is, he doesn't feel he has to be a certain way nor portray a certain personality to the public. It seems he is 'what you see is what you get' as he is always simply himself.

What a douche ... ..

Me or him? lol

It's very refreshing. I wasn't sure what we would be getting when we drafted him. Obviously, things can change when the bullets start flying, but he seems grounded enough to always accept responsibility and never forget the value of endorsing his teammates.

I thought Cowherd was intentionally mean with the interview.

Mayfield was well prepared and not caught off guard by anything that Cowherd was goading him with. Cowherd looked silly and unprofessional. Mayfield held his own and made his points.

I just watched the whole video clip, here is one word I would use to describe Baker in that interview,

Moxy, he showed composure under duress. He went toe to toe with a titan of his industry, in cowherd.

Yep, he has big stones. I like the way you could see him thinking about what was being said and formulating a response way before Cowherd finished talking. He did a better job keeping his composure than I would have.

He said the most growth in his game came when he had to sit a year, after transferring to Oklahoma. Obviously, I didn't want Baker, but I kept saying during the draft process was that his personality was winning me over, now that I see it on full display, I see why everyone calls him a leader. That's hard for me to admit, because after the JFF saga, I swore to never fall for the athlete who says all the right things. But unlike JFF, who said all the right things with a wink and smile, trying to charm us into believing him, Baker's style is pure unapologetic candor. He will speak his truth, while accepting blame when due, without caring how the other will take it. When the truth is the truth, you don't need to charm everyone who hears it, people who do that are just trying to convince themselves of whatever "truth" they're telling.

Not having liked his attitude, he's been doing everything to make me forget it. By all means it sounds like a rookie that's in need of work and has been focused in putting it in.

I've learned from Manziel not to take much into pressers, but he's been saying the right stuff to.

Pretty sure he was referring to Cowherd not you

He is ready to compete. He just may not be ready to take over.

I want him to sit and learn. He has the work ethic, and IMO, the ambition to use this time to perfect his craft. Taylor, I believe will be loved by the fans the moment he wins a game and performs well. Having a QB not throw an INT in a game would be a huge step for this team.

I see Mayfield coming into camp next year the clear leader of this team. If Tyrod wins ten games, with him helping in those wins, I see a team giving up a few draft picks to acquire him. These one year deals are a vehicle to a big contract.


That being said, if Taylor leads this team to the playoffs, Mayfield can sit for years and it won't bother me a bit. His time will come. But, if we are winning with Taylor, it would be a bad move to dump him for a drafted player. I feel that would not sit good in the locker room.

This story is not concerning to me whatsoever. It's playing out so far exactly as I'd hoped it would.

j/c:

So.........Darnold and Rosen are reportedly kicking butt on the field and Baker is kicking butt on the TV circuit. Shocking.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by that comment.

Who cares?
What Darnold & Rosen are doing has nothing to do with us.

Obviously, I care. That's why I posted it. Will I get suspended for doing so?

I hope not.

The reports on Baker the player have been pretty good. The tone of your post made it sound like he hasn't.

What articles have you been reading on Darnold and Rosen? I have not read anything that states they're kicking butt at anything.

And from the limited crap that has been written about Mayfield in OTA's and a minicamp, he had a really bad first practice. Then everything written after that said he was doing fine, even promoted to taking snaps with the second team.

So are you still upset about that first practice? Is that what this is all about? Because that's the only thing that's been written about Mayfield having a tough time.

Sounds like you want him to do poorly so you can throw out the "I told you so!" comments... like the one above.

lol!

What field? Oh the 10 days of Rookie and OTA camp...lol you are incredible with your agenda...smh

Non of them have taken one single snap in a NFL regular season game so we are still a few years away from any of this meaning anything. One way or the other bro.

I know that, bro. Then again, there were a lot of positive posts just because Baker told off some dumb reporter. It works both ways in my world, bro.

Cowherd sucked. Why throw dirt on a rookie? I think BM had some smooth comebacks for a lame and stilted "interview" simply to gin up some negativity. Who cares how Colic "sees" it?
This wasn't football IMO. Just trying to rip on a superior player. Might be why ESPN numbers have been off. Lousy all around, Cowlick.

I think this is twice that ESPN was mentioned. I believe Cowerd, Skip, and Sharpe all work for Fox and not ESPN.

They do, but they all started with ESPN and their style of show still exists on ESPN. Neither Fox nor ESPN are exactly kicking butt in ratings atm.

I understand buddy. You know me I hate people who throw dirt on his grave already, and people who want to put a crown on his head already. Why in the hell is it that nobody thinks patients is a virtue anymore

Im not concerned with Rosen or Darnold or with what the cardinals or jets are doing.

They are in completely different situations than we are. Ive come to terms that even if baker is ready, he will sit. And he will most likely be as ready as either Rosen or Darnold. If either of them were here the talk would still be about Tyrod starting the season as QB1.

The most important stat here to keep in mind is that a rookie QB has started what, 23 of the 32 games Hue has coached. Baker would truely have to impress here to get the nod over tyrod. As would Rosen or Darnold. Neither would be starting over Tyrod. And Baker most likely would be talked about be doing well and in contention to start if he was in either NY or AZ.

Regardless of employer, the point is content. I appreciate the correction if wrong, but I thought it was an ESPN show. Nice to see where Fox sets the bar then.

This is a tad premature

6 QBs will forever be compared especially if Rudolph ends up being the next Wilson/Dak mid round stud. Baker is really gonna have to bust his ass not just to avoid being a bust but being worthy of his selection. This is an extremely competitive group of QBs and they wont be forgetting they got passed over for a 6ft tall spread QB that was on video being tackled by a cop.

Don't care about thee other 5 QBs, him being a bust or not is highly UNLIKELY only because the kid works hard always had and always will.

In the past usually those who have busted in the top 5 overall did so cause they just didn't work hard or they could not comprehend the game of football. Neither apply to BM...the kid right now is thinking, once he gets comfortable and he does not have to think that much instead just react and know his reads his accuracy will be amazing and we will have our Franchise QB. I know I know, how do I know this as fact. His skills are amazing, his accuracy is amazing. All that has to come is knowledge and comfort, which is something he has a reputation for. The rest, Leadership, accuracy, etc. is a natural talent that he possesses. Its not a matter of WILL HE...but just a matter of WHEN.

jmho

lol. First, I'm not worried about how hard Baker Mayfield is going to work. He'll be "busting his ass" either way. But I don't think Baker is going to have to bust his ass any harder than the rest of them "to avoid being a bust".......

That 6' Spread QB is a Heisman Winner and far more successful college QB than any of them (Lamar Jackson being closest). I don't think any of the QBs look at him as any lower than any of the other guys that they might have been passed over for.......... (except Sam Darnold, seeing as he was only passed over for Baker).


Personally, I feel just fine about the guy we got. I'd have preferred Josh Rosen, but I was still high on Baker. He's got a strong arm, he's accurate, he's played a ton of football, he's had plenty of success, I think he's quick/slippery too. He's got a great work ethic and has earned everything he's achieved.

Besides Rosen, there's not one guy in the draft class who matches Mayfield as a prospect.

There is going to be scrutiny anytime you are the first qb taken and many people had multiple guys ahead of you.

I don't have any idea on how their careers will evolve, but there is no doubt that they will be compared early and often.

I'm still uneasy. I think I would be regardless of which Qb we had took though.

I just absolutely cannot get over his display of immaturity/bad attitude. I just hope he makes me believe it's not a concern.

I agree w/you that there would be scrutiny no matter which qb we had taken or even if we had taken Barkley. Scrutiny comes w/the territory when you are picked number one.

I think drafting Darnold would have led to the least scrutiny, but there would still be some.

Rosen at 1 would be scrutinized because a lot of people don't like his attitude and concussions.

Allen would have been heavily scrutinized because of his accuracy issues, record, and injuries.

Lamar would have been heavily scrutinized because of his accuracy issues and lack of polish as a passer.

Baker is going to be scrutinized [no matter how much it upsets some of our board members] due to him playing in a spread offense, his lack of height, lack of speed, character concerns, and how often he threw to wide-open windows.

None of those concerns will go away just because posters start hurling accusations and insults at others. The only thing that will stop those conversations is if Baker proves to be the best qb of the bunch.

He might end up being the best. He might not. But, make no mistake..........he is going to be under a microscope.

Absolutely.

And this could take time, hopefully Tyrod seizes the job, wins some games and baker gets the luxury of time to improve.

Tyrod is not all that. Baker should win the job if he is any good. LOL

See. I tried liking Sam Darnold. I really did. But when I sat down and spent my time watching those Youtube "every throw in a game" videos of him, I came out feeling very Ugh.

He's got the image of a QB. The look. His grand father was the Marlboro Man. All that.

But in the actual game, I thought he consistently made poor decisions. Over and over, I was unimpressed with his reads. I mean, I believe it's the Utah Game, and I think it was the first quarter. He literally threw the ball to the same place, twice, on at least similar plays, which was right off defender's hands.

There was absolutely no reason, i saw, that he should have been putting the ball where he was. And that's what I saw over and over. He had a knack for making plays, especially when things become a bit unscripted, but he kept on making poor decisions.


Baker Mayfield I didn't care much for, until I started watching more and more games of his. For me, his stock rose significantly, while Darnold's dropped.


I wasn't going to be upset about Darnold. I saw the upside. But he was clearly my number three guy.

So I guess, me, I'd have scrutinized the Darnold pick more than Rosen or Baker.

Josh Rosen was my guy through and through. Obviously, I don't have all the information that these NFL teams have on Rosen, and there must be something there, because there's no reason a guy with his on-field caliber would be selected as far down as he was.


But point being, at least for me, Darnold would have been more scrutinized than Rosen or Baker. But I think he'd have been the least scrutinized in the national/local media.



I'll agree with this though. He'll be under a microscope no matter what. But, I figure, he's been under the microscope during most of his college career. Whether it's walking on and beating out Davis Webb, or beating out that guy at Oklahoma. When those decisions were made, there's certainly scrutiny on him and the deciders (as a walk on beats out these scholarship athletes)

I think it'll be somewhat close. Less because of talent, more because of circumstance (talent in favor of Baker, circumstance in favor of Tyrod). I think the only rookie who would beat out Tyrod would beat out Tyrod is Rosen.

He'd have beaten him outright and clearly, as his transition to the NFL is easier than Baker's, and he simply has that much more talent than Tyrod.

Petey, I wasn't talking about the personal preferences of myself, you, or other board members. I was talking about the national perception, which is driven by the media and then gets fed by the fans.

For me I don't want to lose sight of the Steelers. I want to win the game and Tyrod be our guy.

The draft is over. We have our team and I am super curious about how we will play.

Honestly I have watched very little of Tyrod. He seems to have gotten the team behind him early by working hard and showing he is ready to play.

We have so many new guys it feels like a different team. The Browns have actually been listed as having the best receiver duo. Crazy when before we didn't have guys who belonged on the field.

We have a legit offense with a quarterback who has a winning record. We have runners. We can actually cheer in some games because we will score points. Something that last year seemed impossible.

Defense. We were decent last year. Now we have an entirely new and improved defensive backfield. We have LB's with depth and competition. Our Dline is better. Our pass rush should be improved.

At this point Baker means little to me. Hopefully he will learn the position and be ready to play if his number is called.

Darnold, Rosen and the others: good luck to them until we play them.

I want Tyrod to light it up. We may be surprised by what he can do with the players around him.

One last thing regarding the offense is Haley. He is experienced. He is very detailed and results oriented.

It should be interesting and fun to watch. That alone gets my blood running hot. After years of tuning in to see how bad we would get beat.

Actually, if you take away College accuracy numbers (who IMHO are not that relevant), most of the prospects are better than Mayfield.

Can't see anything special in the guy... But I hope I'm wrong.

I agree he is going to be under the microscope. That comes to almost any drafted QB, especially those drafted with the intent that he is going to be the guy.

As you pointed out, anybody we drafted would have their "issues" that were going to be monitored.

In a way I agree. But, just to poke you in a nice way, I'll play it the other way. After last season, no way that Hue will give him the chance to win the job. LOL

Again, that isn't to be provocative. Just having a little fun on a Saturday morning before I head out for my 7 mile Saturday walk along the river.

I would stay with the original plan. TT is our guy and let Baker sit and learn. If a game becomes a blowout and they want to put BM in for a few reps fine but other than that I would let him sit. Let's not make the same QB mistakes again.

Interesting.

I actually made that comment w/some of your comments in mind. For example, we better not be picking in the top 10.

Hue probably won't start Mayfield regardless of who is better because his job is on the line and he will rather go with a vet than rookie for wins. And I get that.

That aside, Taylor isn't great. I didn't like forking over a 3rd rounder to get him. He's alright and think he is good QB, but not giddy about what we gave up for him.

All things considered a third for TT is not a bad deal.

He was a starting QB on a team that went to the playoffs.

He is still young and has a winning record in the NFL. A third round pick might not make a team. Usually if they do make the team (depending upon position) they don't start.

They are players you hope will develop into starters.

Look around the league and see what backup quarterbacks make. Foles won a Super Bowl and would have been a starter if traded. It would have cost a lot more than a third rounder to get Foles.

So Taylor for a third rounder no problem even if he becomes a backup.

I disagree. AND the fact we'll only have him for one year as a starter (most likely, considering we drafted Baker to start sooner than later) adds to that, in my opinion. AND it was clear as day Buffalo wanted nothing to do with him anymore seems to me (although I do not know for a fact, of course) I bet we could have got him for cheaper.

Dorsey wanted a vet starter so he made sure he got one. I think it is as simple as that.

And there goes all the scrutiny yada yada you were stating as logic. This is where the Agenda comes in. TT is pretty good. He would be the starter over rookies, Darnold, Rosen and Allen just like he is over BM until it is proven that they can prove to be the better option to WIN.

So the Agenda part comes in with that ridiculous statement about BM should beat out TT cause he ain't that good, if not BM basically is a bust (not said but implied).

All that list of possibly problems that BM has, yeah we know his height is closer to Aaron Rodgers than Big Ben.

Character, that is an out right miss interpretation, unless you're saying that our FO and Coaching staff are way inferior to you cause they have stated that the straw in the decision of taking BM #1 was his CHARACTER. So that is agenda speak snuck in with some valid points. For tricky...lol

I'm sure that is what he wanted as they must feel that they have to win a few games early. I agree that it is likely that TT is only a one year starter but IMO, he is worth a 3rd round pick if he gives us a solid year of play...

Thus far during his career Tyrod has been below average in terms of production in yards and TDs, and middle of the road in terms of wins. He takes a couple sacks per game, holds on to the ball too long, and struggles in red zone, length of field, and third and long situations.

All that under his previous situation.

He now has the opportunity to thrive in an aggressive system tuned to his skill set, with a top tier corps of WRs, TEs, and RBs, under an experienced group of innovative, offensive coaches. He has the benefit of playing with and against a quality defense. He has a solid work ethic. He has quality experience. It's possible he takes a leap forward, begins to quickly analyzes defenses, makes the right reads, and gets the ball to his playmakers in a timely and orderly fashion. I'm almost 100% certain he and Hailey are working on that very thing. This could be a great year for Tyrod.

If not, it's Mayfield's team by game 8.

IMO

He hasn't been a starter his entire career. He has Progressed forward and there is no indication that the progress has peaked. Is he a HOF guy, not what I'm saying. But he has "PROGRESSED" and he took a team to the playoffs that had no reason to be going. He never had the weapons that he apparently has here. The production he had was in lieu of STATS how bout what he did to win games and I guess in a lot of occasions NOT LOSE GAMES.

This is a totally different situation, weapons coaching staff that will taylor to his positives. I agree with you 100% different situation than he has been in and the good news is that TT has been getting better with each season. He should do well. Once the season starts, possibly BM could start but that is a hard situation cause once the season starts usually there is a commitment to the QB and the preparation is not an environment for competition. So only Injury or failure would in turn give BM the opportunity to become our starter.

jmho

Agreed.

Yeah once the season starts...the environment for competition has ended. This goes with just about all positions. There are a few that are rotational so that one can still over pass another. But not at QB. At that point I hope not to see BM as much as I believe in him and as much as I will have to have silly discussions on why he is not a bust...lol I would prefer us to be WINNING with TT.

If BM gets the starting position it will have to be done during training camp and preseason. But that will be a tremendous mountain to climb only cause TT is going to do well!

jmho

Okay, but the billion dollar question is When!
When is the right time?

When is the right time, and When has it been too long and When is it that it was too soon?

I agree, I hope we don't need to see Baker. Based on work ethic and surrounding talent alone, we shouldn't need to. I would much rather see Baker step on the field a year or two down the road as a somewhat "crafty" veteran.

Folks make this way to COMPLICATED ... way to COMPLICATED ....

- We have TT witch means NO NEED TO RUSH BAKER ... this gives us the luxury to wait til BAKERS READY ... TT is competent and won’t LOSE GAMES FOR US ...

- we have TT witch also means that when BAKER IS READY he should be put in ... TT is not near good enough to hold Baker off ONCE HE’S READY ... Baker may not be this year but thats another discussion ...

The only other variable here is if we start off 4 - 2 or sumptin like that and we don’t want to mess with the chemistry ...

TT is going to improve here ... with the supporting cast and coaching here there’s no doubt in my mind .... just not enough IMO to have him playing so well we can’t put Baker in when he’s ready ... is it possible he turns into an above average QB ... sure ... is it likely ... HELL NO ...

And one general comment ...

I’m sick of reading he took the Jill’s to the playoffs ... NO HE DIDN’T .. the D and one Shady dude were the reasons they went to the playoffs ...

There’s a HUGE DIFFERENCE between a QB leading his team to the playoffs and being the QB on a team that makes the playoffs ...

Absolutely...

Sashi drafted Cody Kessler in the third round. While I don't think Taylor is all that good, I sure think he's better than Kessler. Thus, I agree w/you that it wasn't such a bad trade.

I know in the supplemental draft thread I said we better not be picking first in the 2nd round next year...that was a few days ago. I am sure I have probably said top 10 in the past.

Anyway, that was old discussion. It's a new season, the slate is clean and away we go.

In fewer words, that was my point.

Unless TT gets hurt, he is going to start. End of story.

I don't even want to try to guess when Baker might get in....he may not. We have a chance to still be in a playoff race until late in the season. If we are, we ride with TT, as we should. If not, maybe sometime in November?

IMO if Taylor is playing at an average or above level - Baker shouldn't see the field.



He should be better with Cody with an arm and if it's there, an ability to throw deep and an added chance to scramble. Man... he better be better than Cody lol.

There's nothing wrong with that though. Better safe than sorry, no?

While the Bills might have thought a third round pick was a steal for Tyrod, that doesn't mean the other teams in the league don't agree.

We secured Tyrod before FA happened. Who knows who we might have been competing with to get the guy. New Quarterbacks went to the Cardinals, Broncos, Jets (right off the top of my head), and Vikings. We have no idea what kind of competition those teams might have given us in the trade market before FA.

We picked a guy we liked, who fitted what we needed to do, and we secured him. Price might have been steep, but sometimes getting your guy is better than "winning the negotiation".


Either Peen or Vers used this when talking about not getting Pryor in FA last year. We won the negotiation and lost the player. It's a good point in a lot of things. Sometimes you have to overpay to get what you want. Just how it goes

You know .. I am satisfied in the long run .. that we are better off now than we would have been in winning Pryor. On paper, I think we are better off. JMHO

Baker Mayfield got engaged to his girlfriend.

And this from Mary K.


Hey, Mary Kay: During minicamp, did Baker Mayfield make any throws that made you say 'okay, that's why they took him No. 1?' - Jeff Day, Norton, Ohio



Hey, Jeff: Absolutely! Mayfield's arm talent has never been in question. He can make all the throws, puts enough spin on the ball to whip through icy Lake Erie winds, and is pinpoint accurate. I saw him throw NFL-worthy touchdown passes to receivers such as Corey Coleman and Damion Ratley. Working with the second-team offense, Mayfield isn't throwing much yet to Josh Gordon and Jarvis Landry, but he's making the most of his chances with the second-team wideouts. He's completing NFL-caliber short, intermediate and deep passes, and routes all over the field. The things Mayfield must still work hard on are operating under center, knowing the offense well enough to play fast, and identifying coverages. But he's progressing quickly.

Cleveland.com, Plain Dealer.

Man ... we’re SO OVERDUE and i mean SO OVERDUE its not even funny ...

And i have NO CLUE if hes got the talent both mentally and/or physically to do this ... and even if he does have the talent to eventually be the man with the O he comes from and the transition from that O to the NFL making his an even steeper climb than most rookie QB’s ....

Dudes got the deck stacked against him ... no doubt .... then i think ...

Not the guy i wanna bet against .... GOOD LUCK BAKER ...

j/c


I think Memphis has it right and that Dorsey didn't want a repeat of the past two seasons so I think he felt it necessary to get a viable starter in this league. And I'm not sure if Tyrod was his first choice, but I think he was on the list.

And based from what I've read, I believe Hue doesn't want a repeat of the past two seasons either... I think it's becoming obvious to me that he's taking no chance on a rookie this year, whether that's good or bad.

I don't doubt Baker could be ready for the first week and I don't doubt any other rookie would be in same position. Hue's job is on the line. After starting Kessler for half a season and Kizer all last season, I doubt he wants to leave his career in the hands of a rookie.

And it's not so much that Baker is behind the other rookie quarterbacks because he is slower at grasping things, it's because the coaches are holding him back. He's not practicing with the first team not because he's not ready, but because the coaches don't want him to.

I think it's obvious the coaches have committed to Tyrod for the start of the season. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's probably setting Baker back, who more than likely would be starting for a team like the Jets or Cardinals had he been drafted there. They simply aren't prepping Baker in Cleveland like the Jets and Cardinals are prepping Darnold and Rosen, respectively.

Baker will be a better quarterback than Tyrod, he just needs his chance.

I don't think tab will say the above comments are fueled by an agenda. LOL But, that's okay.

I am curious to how you know all of these things? Do we even know if Baker can read post-snap coverages? Do we know if he can get us into the right formation or call the correct audible when under center? Do we know if he can throw w/anticipation? Do we know how he will react when teams change coverages on him?

He was not asked to do those things in college. So, I'm curious as to how you know that Baker will be better than Taylor, or that he isn't getting the chances Darnold and Rosen are just because, and you don't doubt that he can be ready by week one? How in the world do you "know" all of those things?

I don't know if Baker can or can not do all of those things. What I do know is that they are very important and Baker wasn't asked to do them in college. I also know that some Spread guys make the adjustment and others really struggle w/it. Others never get them.

I think it is a tad early to be making definitive statements on how good Baker will be and what he can do or not do.

He can do all those things, it's just a matter of time and hands-on experience at this level.

How do you know that when he wasn't asked to do them in college?

We don't know that he will be able to. Bottom line, until he shows us one way or another.

Because I see that he has the IT factor. I see him winning a Superbowl or 2. Go Browns!

Oh.....

It might have to wait awhile because I think Tyrod will excel with all these weapons we now have! It will be exciting..

My comments are not fueled by an agenda like some here...




I'm actually curious why you think he can't do any of these things because you think he wasn't asked to do them in college. But the answer to most those questions you rhetorically asked is yes he can. Whether or not he was asked to do them is irrelevant. He did them anyway.




Just facts. Darnold and Rosen have practiced with their respective first teams, Baker has not. Baker saying the Browns taking it too slow with him doesn't give the impression he can't or isn't able. He's ready and able to learn but the coaches are taking it slower with him than he expected.




It's too bad you choose to remain ignorant on Baker Mayfield. I've been in his corner for over 6 months now explaining why he's going to be great. I remember when there was laughter at the notion of drafting Baker #1. I think you were one who said no way. He's easily the best quarterback in the draft, but you want to assume the Browns got it wrong.

If the Browns pick the player you wanted, they made the right move. If they don't pick the guy you wanted that means they screwed up. I guess I'm just not as smart as you.

I clearly stated that I did not know if he could do them or not.

I'll let the personal insults go, but I have not seen evidence that Baker did those things in college despite your claims that he has.

j/c

I'm surprised that there has been virtually no talk about the 'newness' of the offensive team being a factor in who will 'start' at QB.

New OC and offense, new role for the HC, new-ish training camp for JG, new stud WR in JL, new and young LT (no matter who gets the start), new RT, new-because-he's-only-in-his-second-year-and-about-to-turn-a-whopping-21 TE, new bell-cow RBs, new rookie QB not experienced in taking snaps under center.

I'm not sure another team in the league with a RD #1 QB can match that...and I doubt ANY Rd #1 QB in the 2018 draft is 'ready' to lead that kind of an offensive team.

I’m not sure any team in the history of the NFL can match that for a top 5 pick in the draft. We were in a VERY UNIQUE situation in that we had way more talent on the team than our record indicated and we had more money for FA than anyone in the history of the league is my guess and are u kidding me with the QUALITY and QUANTITY of draft picks ...

VERY VERYT UNIQUE situation ....

And your correct about EVERYTHING being new ... no doubt thats a negative factor in the areas u mentioned ... but it also means that TT is starting from scratch with everyone and everything ...

And the experience we have with guys like Landry and Hyde and the other vets will help Baker with his transition ...

I give Baker maybe a 3% chance to pull this off ... I’ll be shocked if he does .... just wanted to present the other side of all the “newness” around here ....

Never in the recent history of the NFL, do I remember having so many options at QB, both draft and FA.

This FO chose TT and Mayfield out of the options that even included an SB MVP and what is for me the best QB rookie that came out since Luck, in Rosen (apart from Deshaun).

Plenty of options but no excuses now....

Ps. I would never, ever go down this path, and few would, so don't be surprised for the criticism and lack of slack for excuses.

Which Super Bowl MVP was available?

Nick Foles, it was the last one, remember....

Nick Foles and I were equally 'available' this offseason.

See. I think this has been mentioned. Or at least I've mentioned it.

It's a huge factor. Get this offense up to speed as fast as possible. Best way to do this is with a vet QB like Tyrod

Easier to get the offense up to speed with Tyrod and insert Baker later than have the offense grow with Baker (who will be adjusting to NFL Defenses and Speed, along with a new offense)

Huge factor in the reason we traded for Tyrod

Browns tried to trade for Foles

Exactly.

Brees was "available", I guess, but he was never going to truly be available.

I don't know that he was never available. I remember reading something where Foles said he didn't want to play in Cleveland when we tried to trade for him.

I am not sure if that report was true, but you guys don't know if there was absolutely no chance of Foles being traded.

I posted the article above because Rastan said Dorsey chose TT over Foles and that he intends to hold Dorsey accountable for that choice. My point is that if Dorsey tried to trade for Foles but couldn't, then traded for TT, then it wasn't a choice, but more of a plan B (or C or D.)

I figured as much. I wasn't getting on your case at all. I promise. Glad you posted it. It added facts to a lot of rampant speculation.

There was an article that said that he was never asked about a trade to Cleveland.

Nick Foles: I never heard about Browns trade offer – ProFootballTalk
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/05/29/nick-foles-i-never-heard-about-browns-trade-offer/

It's unusual for players to be notified that they're in trade talks. It's bad practice.

Some reporters said that he rejected a trade to the Browns. That was all I was responding too.

I always find these posts interesting. Not knocking rasta, but 9+ teams didn't feel this way and 3 of them needed quarterbacks and drafted someone else. I would have taken Rosen over Allen, that's for sure.

I remember some here were high on Russell Wilson in that draft as well and all 32 teams missed on him. It happens.

in that draft .. I stated I wanted Wilson from Wisconsin.. and was pretty much told he was nothing and would amount to nothing in the NFL .. too short and no arm. Our Board Experts are not always right.

I wasn't knocking on the FO for not trading for Foles,just saying that they have no excuses for going the way they had gone.

Both Nick Foles and Odell were available this off-season, for the right price, and we were one of the few that could afford them.

The reports about us trying to trade for Foles were not confirmed, and Foles state later he was never approached about that trade.

Typical Browns acting.

Teams passed on Rosen because of his political views, not because of his skill.

Actually there are a number of liberal players waiting to be signed....but I understand Haslam would never do it.

I don't know if there's any truth to this or not. For me there were other things I didn't like as much as Baker although Rosen was probably my #2 or #3. If Baker wasn't in this draft I would have been good with Rosen. I believe Baker possesses certain traits that only come along once in a generation.

I think it was more about his injury history and questions about his attitude than his political views.

General question - I see comments like this every now and then. How long is a generation, in this context?

I also wanted Wilson ......

But I thought he's be a quality backup.

I mean in football terms, it's probably around 15-20 years as that's the expectancy of a QBs career if they are HOF quality. The real life generational gaps are between 20-30 years.

If those traits are truly generational, Baker will turn into a perennial top 3 QB that is THE top QB in many of the years as a pro.

There are many "good" QBs that peak and have a great year during their career and hang around for several productive years...Think Eli Manning... But few QBs are at the top of the mountain year in and year out...Those are considered "sports generational" type players in my mind. Obviously, it isn't literal as you can have a few at any given time. We just went through a time period where Peyton and Brady played side by side with Brees. I don't think there is any other sure fire HOF QB in recent memory since Brett Favre retired besides those 3. There are a LOT of QBs that have similar or better years than these 3, but not every single year like they do/did.

In pre-draft conversations, I believe the span of 'generational' compresses. For instance, 4 years ago Clowney was described as a generational DE. The following year Bosa was described as generational, the following year Garrett, and this last year I saw it used for Chubb. I'm thinking the life-span of a fruit fly may be your measure...at least as the draft approaches.

I believe "generational" or "once in a generation" is a figure of speech referring to a player's talent. I don't think it refers to just one player in a generation, there might be more than one or ten. I mean I'd consider Elway a generational talent like Tom Brady, peyton manning, maybe even andrew luck, etc...


My point being that all signs point to him being a stud. I think he's going to be great and great for us.

Generational should mean once in a generation. For the purposes of sports, once every 10 years or so is probably appropriate. But if we use the word too liberally, so that players coming out of college are described as generational in every draft, the word's meaning is diluted.

Edited to add; I don't disagree with your list of QBs. I think that is an appropriate application of the word.

Depends on who u talk to ... the folks that throw the word generational around like there wiping there ass do it every chance they get ...

John Elway was generational ... Andrew Luck was generational ... no one since then has been generational to those that don’t throw the “term” around loosely ....

Manning was a STUD coming out but no one said generational ... hell, he wasn’t even the consesus #1 ... Many thought Leaf was better ...

There’s been a ton af talent come out the last 3 years and i am going to have a blast watching them develop and seeing where they end up ... but none of them were generational ....

They may turn out to be great but that don’t mean they were generational coming out ... just look where two of the guys that are in everyones GOAT convo and where they were drafted ...

j/c:

I am just wondering why anyone would think that it's okay to slap the "generational" tag on Baker at this particular point in time?

I agree.

I think he can be a really good QB, maybe great, maybe not, but I don't think he is another Elway type where you knew the bust factor was maybe 2%.

Baker isn't fast, so you can take the Mike Vick stuff off the board.

He has a good to very good arm, but not one that stands far above other QB's.

He is pretty smart, but you never know how that is going to play.

He has desire, but not more than Tebow and that didn't work out.

I just look at "generational" as guys who define an era of football. Not just one. Brady, Brees, Manning (the eldest) have clearly defined this generation of QB play.


I believe guys like Garrett and Bosa and Mack will define the DE position (though Watt is the ultimate measuring stick)

WR's like Julio Jones, Antonio Brown and maybe, maybe Odell Beckham and AJ Green.

The all-pros in other words. The guys who are the identity of a team or unit. Not just "one" guy, there are 32 teams and millions apon millions of fans' memories to consider.

Tebow is a fun comparison. Similar in "desire" I'd say but nothing else really. I'm not sure I would have drafted Tebow in the third round let alone the first. Big difference in play, Tebow was a runner, Baker a passer. Tebow had awful arm motion and his delivery was so slow.

I think Baker's arm strength is very underrated. Some even consider him "noodle armed." But I disagree and I think he has elite arm strength. In fact he was second in velocity only to Josh Allen at the combine.

Speed isn't an absolute necessity. He's not a runner, although he will run, but he's a pocket passer first. Speed is always brought up when I talk to people about Baker, but I think it's not relevant to his style of play.

Tebow might be considered generational. However, Baker turned in the most efficient season in college history in 2016. And then he was even better in 2017! That's the type of thing a once in a generation player does...

I believe this is Tyrod’s ship, and baker will be a reincarnation of Carson Palmer.

Aka the last #1 qb to sit all year. Really hope we aren’t looking for a qb competition.

I was wondering the same....


If anything I would say that the word Engineered is the one that comes out when I think of Baker... a bit like Brady Quinn, if you ask me.

Hope I wrong....

Saquan, Edmunds and maybe Rosen were IMHO the "Generational" prospects this year.

According to Carr (which I respect) Josh Allen was the generational prospect QB....

Apparently, you guys haven't been paying attention.

The things he's done may never be duplicated.

I thought I was paying attention, but perhaps not. Would you post several links from noted QB/Draft Gurus or former NFL QBs who said that "Baker Mayfield is a generational qb?"

I could be wrong, but I believe the only person I've read that called Baker "a generational QB" was you. But, I will certainly pay "attention" this time if you could provide a few links. Thanks in advance.

Nobody thought this guy would be a generational QB either.

[img]https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2017...=1000&h=506[/img]


But don't get me wrong I am not sold one way or the other on Baker yet.

I assume your google is broken. Head down to your local library, google will work there.

Click Here

What things may not be duplicated?

Honestly, for example Colt McCoy has a higher completion % than Mayfield, more W's less L's...

Any Oklahoma QB will have good stats...so hardly hard to replicate, and his physical attributes, well... I won't say its a dime a dozen, but close.

Only thing that I'm afraid will be hard to duplicate is a prospect like him ever being taken #1 again, but we already had Jamarcus, so even then...

Thats what they said about David Klingler and then soon there after Akili Smith ...

College production is a HORRIBLE ASS indicator for how your going to do as a pro ..

Look at Joe Montana and Tom Brady ... not sure the careers of two college QB’s could be any different yet look at the results in the NFL ... and even with Joe’s INCREDIBLE college career he didn’t go til rnd 3 of the draft ...

Baker has the POTENTIAL to be a stud cause he’s accurate and smart ... as of right now its POTENTIAL with a BOATLAOD OF QUESTION MARKS to be answered ...

Thats it ... trying to say he’s going to be this or that based off college is COMPLETE and UTTER CRAP with a Capitol C ...

Mason Rudolph could end up the best QB in this class .. right now its a CRAPSHOOT as to who that will be ....

Poor Colt. Everyone always picks on him. He's the only QB we've drafted that hasn't "busted." One of the better back-up QB's and hey, the infamous 60% completion percentage...and more TD's than interceptions.

Not too shabby for a third round pick. At least so far as expecting a 3rd round pick to be a quality back up in this league. It's sad when you think back that a what 6-15 record as a Browns' starter is about as good as could be expected.

And,no, before anyone asks, I am not a fan of Colt. Just pointing out that, concussions aside, he is currently the best QB we've drafted in the last 15 or so years... yikes.

Obviously nobody is a generational talent until they prove they are.

Out of this past draft that includes Sequon Barkley. Who when you watch him in college looks like the "potential" is there.

Quarterbacks? Please.

Nobody was better than Luck coming out. Has he been a generational talent? Mmm not yet.

So let's let's curb the enthusiasm.

Yep. The same could be said for the guys between - and including - Baker and Mason.

There really is no reason to curb ones enthusiasm "IF" the Browns are going to get good and win more than they lose for once.

That's what we're here for.

And Hopefully Baker Mayfield is the all star quarterback, (Finally!), that Browns fans have been waiting for.

Your link is just a link to Google. Also, I had already googled "Baker Mayfield generational quarterback."

I'm not sure why you continually try to deceive people.

j/c

There wasn't even a consensus overall #1 QB pick this year at QB much less a QB in this draft that was considered generational.

It's fine to be excited about Mayfield and to hope for the best. It's fine to point out his strengths.

But to expect people to buy into some over the top hyperbole simply isn't being realistic.

I'm not sure what Mayfield will be, but it was a consensus, that if he was taller, there would have been no doubt about him being the number one pick. Height, was the only factor, he was near the top of the list in everything else that matters.


The talent must be there.

Is that true? I don't think you are trying to deceive anyone, but is it really true that there was consensus that Baker would have been the first overall pick if he were taller? Or, was that the talk on this board?

I seem to remember Darnold being the guy who was most talked about by most as being the first overall pick.

as Diam said its not as complex as posters like to make it.

If BM is going to play this year he will have to beat out TT before game
1. QB competition ends after game one.

Now the exception will be if:
1. TT gets injured.

2. If he starts turning over the ball his best virtue.

3. If his overall game is sub par n it is costing us wins.

4. Nearing end of season and we are out of post season contention...we will let the kid finish the season.

I would like to see good progress from hin in preseason. Being #2 he will get a lot of playing time except preseason game #3.
jmho

There was a lot of talk to that regard.

I thought, and still think, that Baker will be a good QB, but I don't know yet if he will be great.

I preferred Darnold because of his superior size/speed, and because of his ability to create on the move and outside the pocket.

We'll see what happens. I hope that I was really wrong.

I think the claim that people were saying Baker is a generational qb is false. I also think that Baker is vastly overrated.

With that being said, I'm just some dummy on a message board. He could end up being great. I just don't like when people paint false pictures.

I certainly hope he'll be a generational talent.

We'll see.

I do, too. And I never said that he would not be.

I am just disputing device's claim that he is a generational qb. I can show you the search page if you think I am wrong that he was not being talked about as a generational qb. Just ask.......I'll deliver.

Yeah, I am not debating that ... just adding my view. I didn't mean to make it seem as though I was.

Got it.

Dude called me a liar repeatedly. I won't call him a "liar," but trust me...............I haven't forgotten it.

false picture? The kid is an overall #1 pick QB in a strong QB class. Only false representations are from you...smh

Okay tab, please show me the links from QB and Draft experts that say Baker is a generational QB.

I researched the stuff before I asked the question. There is one post-draft report from the Browns that say that.

Otherwise, there is not squat!

The last QB coming out of the draft that had the "generational" tag was Andrew Luck. You can call me all then names you want to, but that won't alter the truth.

ok vers show me where Ive ever described BM as generational. All I can say is hes the best QB prospect we have had n better than Rosen.

What? I never said you described him that way. device did. I asked him to provide links. He deflected.

I have stated that I'm just a dummy on a message board and I don't know if Baker will or will not be a generational qb. However, device saying that he is a generational qb is a false narrative. No one was saying that before the draft. And believe me, I wouldn't be arguing this strongly if I hadn't already done my research.

Heck, I would have let it all go, but device had to say that something about us not doing our research. Nah man, there were not a lot of experts talking about Baker being a generational qb before the draft.

And again.......that does not mean he won't be one, but I don't like guys like him blowing snow up our butts.

jc

Tf is a generational QB?

lol

Baker is a raw rookie who may or may not pan out as a starter.

Lets not send him to the hall of fame before he has even had a snap.

Ok. Thanks.

That's the best take I've seen on him. Those on either the love or hate spectrum are easily dismissed in my opinion.

LOL

A tad premature.If there EVER was a franchise to be cautious about every QB, we the snake-bitten should be that one.

However, with the number of players we dressed out at the position, we never took most of them seriously. They were panic fills, roster spackle to play the next game or so. We really earn the negativity with ones we have held up as the real deal, like right about now, who died on the vine. I see BM growing. Keep your eye on his potential.

Baker is not smart... a smart guy does not run way from the police drunk,specially a guys that is betting his future on being a NFL QB.

There is zero indication that Baker is smart, or smarter than many QB's to make that claim. You could make a point of him being emotional, but rational I don't think so.

College accuracy is something that you should not value to much, specially when the accuracy is a product of the system the QB plays in.

Mayfield was a #1 gut pick... until he proves it, for me it will be Dorsey doing what the Browns FO always does, trying to outsmart others.

So you googled Baker Mayfield generational talent saw the results and came here and said you saw not a single article or person mention baker mayfield and generational in the same context. Is this an accurate assessment of what you did?

And I'm the one who deceives? Got it.

Diam has it right that his accuracy and arm talent is what took him to the top in college. Colt McCoy and Tebow have been compared but neither had the arm talent.

I also agree that you can't judge a college career as an NFL indicator. I do think you you need to show some propensity to win, however. Take jay Cutler. He didn't win in college didn't win in the pros. The same will probably hold true for Kizer which is webt I didn't want him. Mahomes is the one guy who "did not win" that I feel could be awesome. But now we are off topic.

What am I doing that is trying to be deceiving? I would love to know because slander can actually be a crime. I have never pranced around like some who continually say I told you so and must be the superior intellect on the board. I don't really care about that. I don't try to corral people into hating on certain posters for their way of thinking. And I certainly don't go around saying so and so's opinion is deceitful.

I've never once since mayfield has been drafted said, I told you so. I've merely said, just watch, wait and see for yourself. It's interesting to me that a lot of the anti-Sashi's are now in the corner of Dorsey got it wrong.

All you have do is look at what baker did in college to see he was a rarity. He has far better arm talent than McCoy or tebow. Like I said he was the most efficient quarterback ever, and then the following year he was the most efficient quarterback ever! You may never see that again, ever!

Unlike you, I'm not trying to deceive anyone. I believe we have a very special quarterback on our hands. I don't think it's hard to see he's someone special. If you choose to ignore it now, that's fine. But I believe itll be hard to ignore in the
Near future.

We should be the Saints. There are a lot of fans here who have never done any stupid drunk stuff.

Have you ever been drunk? Did you get drunk on your 21st Birthday ( as I recall the incident took place on Baker's 21st ). Did you ever drink and drive? Have you ever run a stop sign? How about sped up and ran through a yellow light? Have you ever bounced a check, either accidentally or on purpose? Have you ever driven over a speed limit? Have you ever not used a turn signal on your car? Any of those things, if spotted by a cop, IS NOT SMART. How many of those things have you done, ever ?

I've been drunk, yes, but it would never cross my mind to escape from the police. And I was never in a position to be a future NFL QB...

But let me flip the question.

Why do you think Baker is a smart QB?

Emotional, I concede, but smart... that would never be an adjective I would use to classify Baker. Smart people also do dumb things, but not with the frequency Baker does dumb stuff.

And then there is the difference of being college Football smart and NFL football smart...

My response is strictly in reference to labeling Mayfield a generational player.

That is unfair to both Baker and the fans.

Let him play and we will see.

Hopefully he is really good.

As it stands today; I am pulling for Tyrod because he is the starter.

When Baker gets his chance I will be pulling for him. I want to be a Baker Mayfield fan but he has to show me first that he can lead this team to victories.

the dumb stuff people site are not "dumb" per se. I question the use of the word frequency. One game, against Kansas, he grabbed his crotch, taunting the Kansas bench after being taunted and trash talked from the the opening handshake on. He ran from the cops when he he was drunk and walking. Was he driving ? No. Was he in a fight ? No. Was he stealing, or robbing someone? No. Was he drunk and disorderly? Only charged that way because he tried to run, before being stopped, no. Did he do STUPID things day after day, after day ? I would guess not. He was the starting QB on a top 4 football team and the Heisman trophy winner. Not stupid.

So far I fail to see any smart actions....

Maybe I can change my stance if you provide examples, but haven't seen anything smart on his actions so far.


I wasn't making a call for him being dumb, I was just calling people that were saying he is smart.


For a alleged smart guy he does a lot of dumb stuff....

Smart and Accurate were the words thrown around, and I continue to say that IMHO, Colt McCoy for example is smarter and has more accuracy than Baker.... Also won more games than him, so the winner label also does not stick with me.

You would be wrong on both counts.

And I think you're a little misguided in thinking wins alone in college mean he's a winner. There are other traits that go with it than just "winning." McCoy doesn't have the arm strength that mayfield does. And mccoys smarts or awareness wheb he's on the field falls short of baker. I remember watching colt, I think vs Jacksonville, on 3rd down run out of bounds without an outstretched arm toward the first down marker. I knew then he wasn't the answer. Similar to when Kizer had all day to throw and just stood there and got sacked. Some guys just don't ever get it.

J/c

I don't think anyone ever called mayfield a generational QB at the NFL level at this time. That would certainly be foolish... but there are certain posters who will want you to believe that's what's been said.

Well, there is this:



I don't like when certain posters try to deceive others by saying Baker is a generational qb or by saying he changed plays while playing under center or that he went through multiple progressions. On the other hand, I think Baker has some strengths and I have read that he came across as smart in interviews. The above article is another indication that he is probably a pretty smart guy.

It seems as though he did change plays at the LOS. I am not sure what their process was, as far as audibles and verbiage, but here's a snippet from an SI article:

Baker Mayfield Role in Oklahoma Air Raid Offense | SI.com
https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/04/05/baker-...les-protections

Before the lights go down and the film clicks on, Riley answers everybody's first question: Just how much responsibility does Mayfield have within the framework of the offense? In other words, how much of it is Riley, and how much is Mayfield?

“He’s probably got more responsibility here than he would have with any NFL team he would go to,” Riley says.

“Some places do it where you hold up a board on the sideline and he tells everybody what to do and he doesn’t have any communication responsibilities, but he plays a larger hand here, a pivotal role.

“Mentally, he’s the best one I’ve ever been around, and I’ve been around some good ones. There’s not gonna be a guy walk in and process what this guy can process. That’s not gonna be an issue at the next level, regardless of the system or amount of verbiage.”

Alrighty then. For the film session, Riley’s staff isolated a handful of clips to show the difference experience makes. Says Riley: “These should tell you what a lot of these coaches want to know from me—responsibilities, protections... stuff you can’t tell just from watching the film.”

There are a lot of game clips, good and bad, with the coach's evaluation.

Since, we're pretty much just analyzing his personality at this point, I get really strong Peyton Manning vibes to him. Seems like he can kick it with his teammates, always cool around the media, and a tad sophmoric.

So let me see if I get this straight..... You're saying he has a generational personality? If so I think that's much closer to reality than saying he's a generational QB since he hasn't taken a snap in the NFL yet. lol

Nah, just that he reminds me of Peyton more than any of the other QBs. Aren't we essentially just doing a Cosmo personality test for him right now? Comparing his traits to other QBs?

Well in the opinion of some of us that's really all we can do right now. I've seen him have poor impulse control on rare occasions but otherwise there seems to be no real issues. He hasn't gotten into any major trouble or no terrible legal issues.

There are a rare few on here that seem to have crystal balls about the future of his career however that have made some rather verbose and far reaching predictions both good and bad that I feel hold no real validity.

Regarding BM smartness....

Trying to get any info about his GPA,but nothing, no academic record for him.

Even Josh Rosen who was, to my knowledge the smartest QB in the group, academic achievements are less then impressive (3.2 GPA) and his Wonderlic was 29.

Baker Mayfield wonderlic score was 25... so stop with the non-sense of him being a smart QB.

Not that it does matter much, IMHO, average intelligence is enough,but calling someone like Baker smart is setting the bar too low.

Football smartness we can only see that in the field, and against NFL teams. If there is something that we can't predict nor project its precisely that, how do college QB's adapt to NFL speed.

From the interviews I saw with him, he comes out more like a smart ass than someone really smart.

Earlier, you asked for links to show he is smart. I posted an article that was a Modernized version of the Wonderlic and whose authors claim predicts to eventual performance. Baker was said to have scored very high on that test.

I really hope Baked didn’t dupe Dorsey the way U appearantly think he duped the rest of us ... ...

PS. Intillegence has ZERO to do with how quick he or anyone can process the info needed at the pace of an nfl game ... IMO thats more to do with the computer chip processing speed in ones brain than the intelligence level of the person ...

Subtle yet huge distinction ...

That's very true. It's been my experience that most posters don't understand what "processing" means to qbs. It's why I am continually baffled by how some people can be so high on collegiate qbs who are never really asked to go through multiple progressions and make multiple reads. A lot of them typically have one read, so it's impossible to know if they can or can't process things quickly in the NFL.

We've had a ton of qbs who couldn't not process post-snap reads quickly. It started w/Timid, continued w/guys like Frye, Weeden, and Kessler. And we all saw how poor Kizer was at it last year.

Your article falls on deaf ears here. It appears many have already decided on baker's career. And it's not going to be good. If only Dorsey had come here first to consult with our scout team....

I still have no idea where this impulse control issues come from. These are the things vers talks about "making up." You can find articles with baker being labeled as having generational traits and how well he did in college (better than anyone) but you don't find any articles about impulse control issues.


There are some on this board that have been arguing since December that mayfield was a poor draft choice. He's now on the team and there are still those arguing he was the wrong pick.

And now you're posting things like well things seem to be going ok because he has not been in trouble or done stupid stuff. Perhaps this was just a non issue made up by posters on this board.


My love of baker is that he's a one of a kind. You don't want to call him generational, fine. But the gm, scouts and coaches all see things in him they've never seen before. It seems most here are already convinced we made the wrong pick, a lot of people are being cautious and some hate the pick and think we'll be drafting another QB in a couple years.

Baker possesses some of the most intense leadership qualities you'll ever see. He is light years better than rosen, darnold or jackson. And if you say how do you know, then you're simply not paying attention.


Based on things ive read about the browns in recent years, I think it was impressive to get a leader such as baker. I don't think there's any chance baker will sit longer than a year. I think the fact the coaches are taking it slow with him could actually bite them in the arse. I think we're prepared if tyrod has a great season to franchise and trade him and give the reigns to baker. And we'll be right back here with the same posters questioning the move.

I wanted Sam but was 100% fine with Baker or Josh ... they ALL had QUESTIONS that need answering ....

I’m not all that worried about his impulse control issues .... but that don’t mean there not there ... i can’t believe u say there’s no articles on them ... dude ... one of his impulse control issues led to him NOT STARTING A GAME ... he was BENCHED TO START A GAME ...

And that was just one instance ... there were a few others ...

To deny he’s had impulse control issues is just U not being honest with yourself ...

Your just putting on the BIGGEST BLINDERS EVER and there’s no sense trying to have a rational discussion with U ...

How many plays did he miss that game?

It's not that some of us are ignoring the issues, we're just annoyed at the people making mountains out of mole hills. His on the field and off the field issues combine to a grand total of "I don't give a rats butt."

I don't see him pulling the same crap Winston is, and that would be something I'd give a rats butt about.

This statement basically boils it down for me. There's "behavior issues", and then there's actual behavioral issues. Baker is by all measures the latter. Personally, I'm not a fan of trying to plant a flag in turf or the crotch grab. But now that he's a Brown, I'm more worried about the gimmicky offense he came from, and the lack of accuracy required in college.

[quote]

IMO a one second difference in processing speed is the difference in a Prowl Bowl QB and a bust in the NFL

Not sure its an entire second ... that may break down to fractions of a second ...

device did. I asked him to provide links. He deflected.

my bad but in your discussion you did diss BM but I didn't see the previous posts.

Most ignorant post ever but look who its from...smh
How bout his Eidetic memory how many QBs you know who have that. Your reasoning was ridiculous.

You are mixing up smart with maturity. have a nice day.

My point is you google baker mayfield impulse control issues, there's nothing there that uses those terms. Nothing. It's those on this board who think he has impulse control issues.

I think the mistake is that people equate planting the flag or grabbing the crotch as an impulse control issue. Impulse control issues refer to something that's uncontrollable. A lot of what he does is premeditated. I think his passion shines and it's something we've been lacking over the years.

Baker is a love him or hate him player. I hope Cincinnati, Baltimore, and pittsburgh hate baker for years to come.

It's interesting how no one is concerned about the crotch grabber that is Jarvis Landry. But I guess it's ok because he's supposedly good, right?

Like i said not even worth a convo ....

U think he pre-medated grabbing his crotch? ... .. if thats not a heat of the moment thing I don’t know what is ... and if he pre-medated that ... he’s not near as smart as i think he is ...

Later dawg .... can’t have a rational discussion with someone who can’t be honest with themself ...

Have a good one ...

You sure he has a photographic memory?

I agree there have been impulse issues, but to be in a athlete, that can be a good thing.


To me it shows passion. Experience can channel that in to positive performance. I like the fact that he cares. In time he will understand that taking a 15 yard penalty doesn't help the cause.

He didn't try to plant a flag at OSU to show any disrespect. The guy did it because he was pumped and knew his team just beat a really good team.

Name me a team or player who doesn't want to beat OSU on a national stage in the Shoe.

No. You're right. Premeditated wasn't the word I was looking for. I was in a rush and the words just flowed. I don't think his actions are uncontrollable. And no I don't think he sat there thinking hey, I'm going to grab my crotch.

I don't think crotch grabbing or flag planting is a sign of an impulse disorder.

It will be refreshing to see someone actually care.

You sure come across as an angry person. Chill a lil.

We have a poster making negative things up and I corrected him and others got upset w/the dude. However, we have posters making up positive things about Baker and you guys let it all slide.

For example, device says that there is a page full of articles about Baker being a generational qb. That is not true. No one was saying that before the draft.

Why doesn't that upset you? Why not rant about people saying that Baker was going through multiple progressions and changing plays while under center?

Your hostility seems awfully biased.

I personally have zero issue with the flag planting ... would i do it ... no ... my dad woulda kicked my ass ... so hell no ... *L* ... as a HC am i going to light into them after the fact and tell them they ain’t accomplished a dam thing yet quit celebrating ... your 1 - 0 ... ABSOLUTELY ...

Inside would i be thrilled ... yuppers ... love to see that passion in my team and love to see them rallying behind there leader ... i have zero issues with that ...

But when u add it together with the crotch grabbing, throwing the ball at a player during pre-game warm ups and running from the cops ... i see zero problem with folks being concerned ... they have every right to be ...

And device i have no clue how u think grabbing his crotch and throwing the ball at a player on the other team during pre-game warm ups is not IMPULSIVE is beyond me ... thats definelty and impulsive act that u had no control over .... the crotch grabbing was emberassing as hell to him ... my dad would kicked my ass twice for that ... make it 3 times ... once for him .. once for my ma and once for disgracing the family name ...

Thats just an inmature person showing poor impulse control ...

Let me guess .. that was acceptable behavior ... ...

I’m outta here dawg ... my last words for now ...

I hope your right ...

GOOD LUCK BAKER ... GO GET UM DAWG!!!!!!

To be honest, I kind of liked him plunking the guy in the head. That was a LOL moment for me.

That's the one moment I like the least. But, I doubt when he did it he thought anything would come of it.


I'm not sure if he injured the guy or not. But I'm sure when he threw the ball at the dude's head (who was wearing a helmet) he was thinking "Let's give him a concussion"



I just thought it was lame.

Not a big deciding factor though. Hopefully something he's learned from, among other things

Not 100% lamp...I know I read it from one journalists and saw on NFL Network from another (might have been the Mooch) after we drafted him and around rookie camp.

But no I did not research it to state with 100% certainty.

Lol! I did? News to me. And people say I make up stuff... yikes.

Ok.

Impulsive actions and impulsive control issues are not the same thing in my mind.

Do you like to drink beer? A well-aged scotch? A martini? Lots of people do and I wouldn't necessarily consider them to have alcohol consumption issues. Now if you drink to the point that it interferes with success in your life, for instance you're late for work, or can't even make it to work, you miss family functions or your son's basketball game, then yeah maybe now you have alcohol consumption issues.

Similarly, if baker's actions net a 15 yd penalty or he gets suspended, and he's constantly affecting the teams ability to win, then yeah maybe he has some sort of issue. But as far as I know, all these "impulsive control issues" he's had (the flag plant, the head throw, the crotch grab, the cop chase incident) have netted mayfield just a single quarter suspension. Oklahoma still won the game although a 1 quarter suspension could be devastating in certain situations.

Also, my guess is that at some point baker will do something someone will classify as an impulsive control issue. If it heeds our chances to win the game, yeah maybe it's something that's needs addressed and he has a problem. And I know the NFL is far less lenient than the NCAA, but for the life of me I don't understand why people wish to take something that wasn't an issue in college and make it an issue in the NFL before he has taken a snap.

Eh, people mature at different rates. His actions are certainly problematic. And he has problematic behavior.

The next question is if someone got to him and told him that his behavior is unacceptable. And has taken that information to heart.

In the interviews I've seen. It certainly feels like it. I don't see the Manziel throwing up the money sign on every other play from him.

Mayfield is here now, and putting in the work. He has done nothing distracting or childish. IMO, this kid is going to make fools of people who think he is another Manzeil, or a "me first" personality.

Why some won't let go of his past "immature" behavior amazes me. He is a kid, he did some stupid things at college. He is a fierce competitor, and very excitable, I don't see how that is going to ruin his career. You have to have a fire in your belly to become the best. He may never achieve being the best, but I don't he ever quits trying.

Until he does something stupid as a Brown, his past means nothing to me, except for his drive to succeed. He has possessed the drive thru out his college career, if he stays on the course he set, I think he will be successful.

The only problem with your post is that I haven't seen anyone say anything close to what you've accused them of saying. lol

Why do three people like this post? Seriously?

You serious, read any thread here with Mayfield in it. They may not use the same words, but it is evident people think he is an ass and will fail.

I think there are people who think he is an ass. I'm one of them. However, I don't think a lot of people are saying he will fail. I know that I haven't said that. I think he has some question marks, just like every other qb who played in systems similar to his. I think he is short and slow and both add to the question marks. However, he was very productive and the Browns thought highly of him, thus he might end up being GREAT!!!

With all of that said, have you not read the posts from guys like device, tab, etc who act like he is the greatest? Generational QB claims. Please. No one of any significance was making those claims before the draft despite what device says [and those who like his false posts.]

I want to play fair. There are people over reacting on both sides, but the worst violations of the truth are coming from the side who are his supporters.

Except I never said anyone of significance was making claims that baker mayfield was a generational QB. And I don't make false posts like the one you just made.

You do realize I can quote your previous posts, right? But, I think I'm on to your game. The words won't match-up exactly, thus you will say I am "making things up." LOL

Perfect.

Go ahead and quote what I said and quote what you said as well.

Because your finger-pointing and oddly overblown accusations get old very quickly...especially given the ridiculous non-football posts you throw out there and your generational ability to be the 'pot-calling-the-kettle-black'.

The mere fact that you GAS enough to actually check who-likes-what is pitiful...doubling down by posting/complaining about it is pathetic.

You asked...I answered.

The guy was spreading false information. I asked him to provide links. He turns around and calls me a liar and you "like" his post.

Awesome!

Those things have only occurred in your mind. I've never read where he called you a liar. He really likes Baker...you are skeptical about Baker...you BOTH have legit reasons for your opinions. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Your constant request for "links" is also part of why I liked his post. Who cares what some talking head thinks about Baker? Their opinion is no better than devicedawg's opinion. Not to mention that YOU probably know more about football than 80% of the clowns whose link you want to see. Shoot, I'd rather read your football thoughts than same from those talking head clowns in a link. It's just exhausting reading through the non-football crap that you get so hung-up on...as if someone is assaulting you personally because they have a different opinion. You and I have had our share of dust-ups...but I realize that you know considerably more about football than I do...it's not really even close with some of the details you see and understand that I do not. I learn when you get into football commentary - even when I disagree. But your perceptions outside of football are sometimes unhinged.

Tell me where I am spreading false information and if I am, I'll leave.

You may find that on a rare occasion, but very rare. I saw the kid lose his cool and do a few stupid things. But when you're young you tend to do some stupid things. It may very well be that as he matures this will not be an issue. It may also be that it's simply a part of his character and it will continue. Nobody on either side of the debate can say with any certainty which way that will go.

I do see a lot of people who have some questions about Mayfield. I'm in that crowd. I will wait for some evidence as to how he adapts to the NFL game before I either give him unjust praise or unjust criticism. Let's just say I'm not one to write blank checks. A lot of great college QB's have never made the transition well. A lot of them have. But anyone trying to make any defining prediction either way on Baker are either undervaluing his talent or overestimating his talent because the college game today simply doesn't supply you with the information to make such a determination.

In all fairness, the title of this article and the slant it was written in isn't what I believe to be accurate either. It's certainly not written in an objective manner IMO

That's the thing about our society today. Everyone thinks they have to have a side in every debate and go to the extreme one way or the other. There doesn't seem to be much objectivity in either direction. The fact is there are legitimate strong suits and questions with Baker. Just like any other QB we may have drafted. Only time will tell.

Can't wait to see him on the field so I can see where his brain is.

This response is to you and WSU.

First of all, I don't want you to leave. I simply like to see the correct information being posted. Opinions are fine. For example, you two think Baker is a stud and I have questions about his game. I don't begrudge your opinions. Hell, you both could be completely right.

My issue was w/a few statements. I am not going to take the time to find the "exact" quotes. Instead, I will paraphrase. That does not make me a person who is "spreading false information." In other words, a liar.

There were not articles before the draft that called Baker a generational qb. I actually searched it before I asked for the links because I didn't remember any. There was one article after the draft that said that there was a model out there by the Browns that said Baker was a generational guy. That's it.

There are articles out there about Baker's lack of impulse control. They might not use those words, but like Diam said, grabbing your crotch, planting a flag, throwing a ball at an opponent, running from the cops, etc are not moves that are desirable or planned out in advance.

I believe this all started when I was trying to talk football and said something about Baker hasn't been asked to read defenses, change formations, and call audibles under center very much. I added that he hasn't been asked to read post-snap coverages. Those aren't insults. They're the truth. Well, device said he has already done those things.

I want to add that when rasta said that Baker was the opposite of smart or something like that, I looked up an article to show he is smart and mentioned how he interviewed well.

I am NOT knocking Baker in some one-sided attack. A lot of people who don't either really follow or know football read this board, and I think it's important to put out the truth.

I am not talking about opinions. We all have them and it makes things interesting. I'm talking about claims such as Baker not being smart or there are articles about Baker being a generational qb and that there aren't any about him having had issues w/impulse control.

I really don't see why that is such a big deal and has to lead to hostilities.

You mean, it's rather too early to make predictions about baker's career?

1. He was a winner in college
2. He has an accurate arm.
3. He seems to be very intelligent and a hard worker.
4. He is short.
5. His passion has gotten him into trouble. It also has gotten him into the NFL.
6. Reading D post-snap, or processing things fast? I can't speak to that. I don't know.


I wanted Rosen, if not then Darnold. Now that he's a Brown, I'm rooting for him but Mayfield better make it worth the pick.

Actually, I have ZERO problems w/people having opinions on Baker. I'm good w/them loving him and predicting great things. I also get those who don't think he'll be good.

My point has been consistent. We need to be honest when we say things that sound factual. I have no problem w/someone who says "I think Baker will be great." Or, "I think Baker is a generational qb." Or, "I question Baker's intelligence."

I don't like when those comments are stated as facts rather than opinions.

Nah, those are opinions.

The fact that he is 6'1", has a dark black beard, and recently got engaged are facts.

This little tid-bit from the board rules settles this issue for me, (aside--how many members on here have even read the board rules?) The following rule covers just this sort of issue:

RUMORSIf you cannot cite a source when posting information to the board, please do not post it at all. Saying that you saw something on television or heard it on the radio is not sufficient as a valid source. Rumors do not lend to valid discussion and will be removed when seen by a moderator.

For years this rule stood supreme in making this one of the best Browns Boards around. In those times you were certain that information you read on here was most likely to be highly accurate. That rule is not enforced as strictly as it was in the past thus giving way for people to state opinions-as-facts in a willy-nilly manner which only serves to water down the knowledge provided by the board.

As said, there are a lot of people who are not going to go looking to fact-check statements or even ask for a link, (a request that used to be commonplace if someone skirted this rule), so they accept what they read and sometimes it gives them a false sense of what is true and what is not. It is the way the internet has evolved and this board has suffered right along with it.

I heard that King Henry the 1st said the same thing, as did Plato.

I read the board rules after every time I get suspended

Thanks.

I know there are people who have issues w/me asking for links. However, I try to only ask for links when I am fairly certain that something being stated as a fact is not actually a fact. I ask for a link or links for a couple of reasons:

1. It's more polite than calling someone a liar.

2. I could be wrong and it is indeed a fact.

3. It gives the poster an opportunity to clarify that what was said is just their opinion and they didn't intend to say their previous statement as a fact.

I will reiterate that I believe that we have a responsibility to present information correctly because we are writing on a public forum and there are too many people who read something and then automatically conclude it was factual. I can't count the number of times people repeated one bit of misinformation as fact just because they read it on here.

Again, my stance has nothing to do w/Baker Mayfield. I disputed some positive things about him and I disputed him being dumb.

I would have NO problem if someone said: "I think Baker is going to turn out to be a generational qb." Or, "I don't think Baker is the smartest guy around." My issue is when people make such statements as if they are proven facts.

That is fair, and I appreciate it. I'm not here to start a battle and I'm with you about spreading false information...


My participation started when people said he has impulse control issues. I suppose there's a fine line here, but... And you even said no article states the exact phrasing "impulse control issues," but that it's obvious to you, diam, and others that they exist. Did he do these things? Sure. Is it an issue? No. And if you say yes, why? Because you say so? What makes it an issue? And what makes it an issue now when it wasn't an issue in college?

To my knowledge Baker has only been suspended for one quarter of action (and really not even that long) and that was team imposed. He was never suspended by the NCAA. I've never denied that he did these things, and like you admitted, no one ever talked about these things as an impulse control issue pre draft or even now. The only time I've ever read anything about impulse control issues it's been on this board by those who are upset we didn't draft the quarterback they wanted. I bring this up and I'm criticized for being in denial. I'm not in denial about something that does not exist.

My number one goal as a life long Browns fan which spans decades is to WIN! I don't care how we do it or who we do it with, who is the quarterback, head coach, or GM. I want to WIN! These "impulse control issues" have impacted Oklahoma's win column NONE! So why all of a sudden is it an issue. This would be no different than had we drafted Rosen and I ran around posting a picture of him in a dorm room hot tub with a beer and a girl saying the kid has drinking problems we need to be leery about.


I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like Baker because they don't like his actions, but the impulse control issue nonsense is just that. Nonsense. I get people want a stand up citizen as their quarterback, but there are no impulse control issues. And his actions to me suggest nothing more than Baker's passion and desire to win. An "issue" to me would mean he is impeding the team's ability to win which simply isn't the case.

That's fair. And for the record, I am not one who has ever used the words "impulse control" when describing Baker. At least to the best of my knowledge. LOL

I think we're "cool" now and can move on. And again, it was never my intent to call you a liar. I just couldn't find anything other than the post-draft report that the Browns had a model about Baker perhaps being a generational qb. And I didn't even think you were lying. I thought I perhaps misread your statement and it was an opinion rather than you stating it as a fact. I was just hoping you would clarify that, but it turned into something else.

It's tough communicating on here sometimes.

1. OU is the program with best win % in college history, so all OU QB's are winners. Colt McCoy has more wins.

2. College accuracy is for the most a product of the scheme. Colt McCoy % completion was higher

3. No he is not intelligent, he is average. Wonderlick of 25 and his academic record does not prove he is intelligent. NFL football intelligence can only be assessed in the field. Colt McCoy wonderlick score was the same - 25

4- Yes he is short - The same Hight has Colt McCoy...

5- There are many passionate QB's that don't get in trouble. IMHO he has the wrong type of passion, but it all will be immaterial,unless he struggles, then it will be another minus for him. Colt McCoy has an advantage on this one...

6- I'm with you, we don't know that. Colt McCoy was slow processing and making decisions, but we only saw that after he played in the NFL. In College he had no problems.

Sorry, but considering he info we have, unless its gutt feeling it appears that the difference between Colt McCoy and Baker Mayfield is not that big.

Still can't understand why we drafted him first.... Maybe I will be proved wrong the first time we see him play in the NFL, I sure hope so.

All-Time Winning Percentages
I have a lot of big ideas for these percentages that I am never going to be able to finish. But, for right now, you'll have to settle for the list below. It includes the winning statistics for every team currently in Division I-A. This includes all the games played throughout their history.

Rank Team Win% W L T Total
1. Michigan 0.734 883 309 36 1228 Yearly Records
2. Notre Dame 0.733 845 295 42 1182 Yearly Records
3. Oklahoma 0.717 811 304 53 1168 Yearly

and here's the link

https://www.therichest.com/sports/footba...ms-of-all-time/

To compare Baker to Colt McCoy is to compare surface similarities, at more.

Colt McCoy was a timid QB, who was afraid to attack the field until the game was lost. He was not especially accurate (not necessarily stat-wise, but play-wise) and did not throw with any sense of anticipation. He was completely unable to throw any receivers open. He was also unable to deal with anything but a soft zone, where he could easily find a receiver in the dead area(s). He struggled with reading defenses, especially post-snap. He also struggled against the blitz.

Baker is far superior in accuracy, placement, and anticipation. As for the rest, we'll see. I think that Baker will be, at least, an average QB. I preferred Darnold, because of his ability to create on the move, and his size, but he also has his challenges. However, Mayfield is not some bum. Realistically, 3 different QBs probably could have gone #1 overall, based on different factors; Mayfield, Darnold, or Rosen. Some might add Allen to that list, but his lack of accuracy, placement, and anticipation completely disqualified him IMHO.

Baker is a Cleveland Brown now, so I am going to hope that he is a great QB, and I am going to root for him until he proves to be unable to be the QB.

I think you're confusing accuracy and completion %.



Height is not as important as many on this board make it out to be. Ask Brees, Taylor, Keenum, Wilson, Flutie, Tarkenton, Young, etc....



So really, based on the accurate information, the only thing really in common is their height.


And if you don't understand why we drafted him first then you're really not paying attention, are you?

Bottom line, We have the most experienced and most proven group of front office execs we have had and he is the guy they wanted out of imho 6 NFL first round talented QBs. To take this kid over the Athleticism of Lamar, the upside of Darnold and the NFL prototypical Rosen says something.
If they missed on this pick, there simply is no hope.


Love the touch, the accuracy the arm, the moxy and the poise of this kid. Georgia started getting to him. They made him look slow and small and his eyes came down but he rebounded mentally and got his team into overtime against a defense that was firing on all cylinders.


He needs to stop relying on his legs so much but I think the kid can play. Kid plays with his eyes up. He has a good arm but he doesn't put his legs into his throws much at all. I think with Haley we may see a huge increase in ball velocity on those down the field throws.


Anyway, if he can get it mentally, we have our QB.

j/c


I wanted Darnold. But I'm fully invested in Baker Mayfield because, what choice do I have otherwise? The more I watch and read about him the better I feel.





From a pure production standpoint, Mayfield has been in another class, and he has the necessary NFL tools despite questions about his height. He owns the two top PFF grades since 2014 and possesses the arm, accuracy and playmaking ability to be the best quarterback in the class. Mayfield has posted the lowest percentage of negatively graded throws in the nation for two straight years, and he led the draft class in big-time throw percentage last season, showing he was what it takes to create big plays down the field.

link to text






Mayfield can’t make tight-window throws: False

While Mayfield had the lowest percentage of tight-window throws in the class last season, he was by far the most accurate in those situations, coming in 9.0 percent better than the No. 2 quarterback, UCLA’s Josh Rosen. Mayfield has the zip to fire the ball in between zones and he has the accuracy to “throw receivers open” away from the leverage of defenders. Both are important traits for the next level, and Mayfield showed well in these difficult situations, even if they don’t show up as often as other quarterbacks in the class.

Why do you get so upset when people likes posts that do not agree with you. Come on.

Btw I'm going on the record that BM is going to become a generational QB...lol

Hey that means we win a couple of Championships in his era!

Take care big guy, don't over emotion with posts, I know I do it too but its just a message board. Save yourself from Stress we know nothing good comes from that.

Once in a generation a team takes a short slow QB from a spread lol

No matter how anyone feels about Baker, that was funny right there.

You were talking about Colt, right?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I think one should use caution when examining the stats of qbs who have played in the Big 12.

Here are some guys who put up HUGE numbers in the Big 12:

Graham Harrell
Landry Jones
Vince Young
Colt McCoy
Jason White
Scott Frost
Kliff Kingsbury
Chase Daniel
Major Appelwhite
Chris Sims
Sam Bradford
RGIII
Bryce Petty
Trevoyne Boykin
Brad Smith
Patrick Mahommes
Josh Freeman
Mason Rudlolph
Seth Doege
Zac Robinson
Josh Heupel
Blaine Gabbert
Etc, etc

It's really not an impressive list in terms of how most fared in the NFL despite their great collegiate careers.

Moral of the story is that the Big 12 doesn't play real football. And if you see Tulsa you should tell him that.

Not a impressive list, no doubt.



As I said 6-7 years ago, the NFL was going to have to change because QB's were changing.


I thought it would happen with Tebow. I was wrong.



Lets hope it happens here. Dorsey has drafted two QB's from similar systems. Maybe now is the switch?


It's a new era of QB being presented to the NFL.



It's going to happen

No offense, but I have disagreed w/that take of yours for years.

You think that it will be successful in the NFL because it is successful in college.

I strongly disagree.

Those gimmicky offenses get destroyed in the pros. They work at first, but defenses catch up and QBs get the crap beat out of them and the turnovers and losses pile up. See Chip Kelly as just one example.

I am not one to say that colleges need to change their offenses to fit the pros because they don't owe the pros a thing, but the NFL isn't going to change for something that won't have sustained success in the pros.

I've said this several times w/the most recent being in reply to Diam about post snap reads.........but I really believe that most fans and a significant percentage of the media has no clue as to how post-snap reads and going through progressions actually work.

Spread offenses w/their one read and then bail philosophy are elementary and there is no way that they are more advanced than what the NFL is doing in regards to the passing game.

And again, I am not bashing you. Just trying to explain.

I think this very thing is why there is occasional resurgences in talks/rumors about the NFL wanting a developmental league.

The NCAA teams don't give a damn about the NFL or preparing kids for it - they're out to win their conferences in the here-&-now, but that leaves the NFL guys sifting through guys that don't fit or are grossly underprepared to try to fill holes.

This is how we have so much mediocrity at QB in this league, and it is probably the biggest reason that "parity" doesn't seem to be a thing in the NFL despite how things are set up. The teams that are consistently on top simply have solved the QB question.... so, year after year after year, those are the teams that are legitimately in the hunt as long as the rest of their team hasn't take a huge hit. All the others rise and fall as different aspects of their teams carry them - a good defense, or a poor QB gets hot for one season until he gets figured out, or a RB has a breakout year, etc.... but, then they all falter.

Good post.

And again, I don't think the colleges need to coddle to the NFL. They need to win games. Shoot........I coached high school and the pressure to win was immense. There are so many experts out there.

I completely agree w/you that you gotta get the qb thing right. We drafted Baker. I would not have done that. But, I'm just a dummy on a message board. I hope I am wrong and Dorsey is right in believing in the "Hee Hee" thang.

Alex Smith to me is an interesting story. He really didn't or couldn't do much in the NFL until Harbaugh and company came along. Not suggesting Jim Harbaugh is the greatest coach ever, but he was able to turn Smith into a decent QB. Similarly, I feel Cam Newton was well-coached during his transition to the more pro-style offense as well. So I feel a lot of Mayfield's career hinges on the coaching he receives. But I can certainly see the concern with this style offense transitioning to the NFL.

They just tend not to take smart-ass decisions and out-smart themselves.

You can see how good organizations like the Giants, Falcons,Eagles draft when they are on the top of the draft. Bills,Browns, etc

Alex's story is interesting because there was no consistency before Harbaugh.

He a lot of the time felt like he had to do it all by himself, because in those early years all he really had was Davis. Reid was able to settle him down in KC...

You should also see decent production from him with Jay Gruden as his coach this year too...

I'd say that I have to agree with you in terms of the NFL O's changing to adapt to college QB systems. To me the problem with that line of thought is that NFL D's aren't going to change to make those QB's productive.

The speed and diversity of talent on NFL D's is the reason why those gimmicky O's like Chip Kelly's soon get sniffed out and solved. That's not going to change.

U can be a GREAT QB in college with a very very high completion% and still not be ACCURATE ...

U will NOT SURVIVE in the NFL no matter how good your legs are if u are NOT ACCURATE ...

For that reason Peen will be waiting another 10 years + for the nfl to switch to tebowesque QB’s ...

Mr. Peen please tell Vince, Colin and Robert that Tim said hi ...

PS. Baker is extremely accurate and he is mobile but no where’s near fleet of foot ... he was EXTREMELY ACCURATE in college, we’ll see if it translates into the pros ... obviously the folks on Vers’s list skill sets didn’t translate to the nfl ... that don’t mean Bakers won’t .. BUT if it does .. it is not some sign that the landscape for NFL QB’s has shifted ...

I would have also liked to have seen what Bradford could have done w/o going to Jeff Fisher out of the gate and then all the injuries ... his skill set very well may have translated very nicely to the nfl ...

Once in a generation...just busting chops there but he actually could be. Your description of him is absolutely ridiculous.

His foot work is excellent, his reads are excellent, his accuracy is excellent. His speed in pads seem to be the same as in shorts and he has that sixth sense in knowing when to take off as the defense will give it to him and the Quickness.
True he is not a running QB but we aren't talking Tom Brady speed here but Brady's sense of when to take off is there.

Short but not Small. Can take a hit. This crapola about from a spread offense as if it negates all his superior qualities is just ignorance on the position. He is the best QB we got here since 1999 by a long shot! Once he gets comfortable with our O and his ERA begins you will see who he is.

Glad you can laugh at yourself. I love it when the clueless think they actually know something...lol

I'm not going to debate with you or Vers about detailed matters of football. However, I take Peen's comments with a little less edge than maybe you or Vers.

First of all, I believe there HAS been a shift or tendency in (some) NFL offenses to incorporate some of the things said QB was asked to do in college. The RPO and regular rolling out of a QB are designed to help said QB deal with their inexperience or gaps in the pro game...right? Good NFL coaches are being forced to incorporate many of the QB's college game into today's offense while that QB develops. Essentially on-the-job training.

How extensive will be that shift? I don't think enough to really change the way offenses are run in the NFL...at least not in the short-term. But I could see a developmental league that others have posted about on here AND a continued effort by the NFL via rule-changes to 'help' offenses deal with continually getting 'raw' players due to the spread of gimmicky offenses in the college game.

I don't think the change will be dramatic...but I don't thing Peen is completely out in left field here either.

The only issue I see here is that what is being used and introduced from College in the NFL, is not what Baker has been doing or known for...

You could probably use this argument to draft Wentz, Deshaun Watson or Lamar, Mayfield I don't see...

I honestly don't see any innovations on the Air Raid OU offense, and if anything we see the NFL moving away from the West Coast Offense (I could be wrong because I'm a bit biased against WCO)

You are calling me clueless? You think that Baker isnt short for a QB, Oklahoma doesnt play a spread offense and Baker didnt just run a 4.85 at the combines. I like Baker and I am a defender of him but to ignore his negatives doesnt do anyone any good.

He took what 3 snaps from under center in 4 years. His immaturity on and off the field is well documented. Georgia DL chased him down over and over. It was acutally my favorite game of his to breakdown. He plays up on his toes making himself taller in the pocket because he is short.

I think Baker is gonna a good QB. Right now, he is just a short, immature, slow footed spread QB that must overcome his negatives to be successful in this league. i wont bet against the kid because I see things in his game that is special.

It's the world we live in today. You can't have a middle ground. You can't see both good and bad. You have to pick a side, see nothing but one extreme or the other. Subjectivity has lost its luster.

I think you should speak for yourself. I don't live in that world...but there is much of that in my world.

People read your posts.

I don't take it as a bash at all. This is akin to sitting at the bar, drinking a few brews and chewing the fat.


I see it has already started to change. I can't remember exactly what I said since it was 10-12 years ago as to when it would happen, but it is happening now. Each year fewer and fewer QB's enter the league with a pro concept background.

It's because there aren't many HS programs running the system. I am sure there was a time when people said the single wing offense was the only way the game should or could be played. You know, back when beaver coats were in style and singing Boola Boola was the song.


You saw a article today that pointed out the same things are changing for O-linemen....a good read. The way they play has changed.


We can call Chip Kelly a gimmick coach, but is he any more of a gimmick coach than Don Corell, or even Paul Brown? Nobody sent in plays like he did. The Browns were considered a gimmick team when we entered the NFL .

Things change

I agree that things change. I don't mean to sound arrogant or like a know-it-all here........but peen, the defenses in the NFL are really, really good and putting in an offense where the qb has one read and can't change the plays under center is a recipe for disaster.

I do know that parts of college offenses have been used in NFL offenses. Never disputed that. There are good aspects in Spread offenses. However, running an offense like Oklahoma's in the NFL would result in you getting destroyed.

I agree. I am not saying it will be a total change. QB's have to be able to check in to a different play if you want to be good. I mean, why run on a run stack D?

There will be some middle ground, but as time goes on it keeps swinging further away form what might be considered the norm for NFL systems.


I am not saying you are wrong. I am just saying the percentages say it will change.


As for the D, the players on the O will catch up as the scouting catches up. No doubt you have to draft for what it is you want to do.

I'm not trying to speak for tab, just adding my two cents.

I think all of us Baker supporters get a bad rap. We are merely defending a lot of the false takes on the guy and double standards by many posters and that turns into us repeating the same things over and over.

For instance I've read many times on this board that Baker has a weak or noodle arm. Baker probably has the best arm in this class next to Josh Allen.

Also Baker ran a 4.85... Darnold also ran a 4.85 and Rosen ran a 4.92. But no one calls them "slow footed." It's honestly not really relevant, but it's considered a knock on him.

Baker processes very very quickly. He made pre-snap adjustments and post-snap reads. He throws accurately with anticipation. Is the offense Baker played in a good offense to transition from to the NFL? Not normally, no. However, the offense he played in never really had a guy like Baker at the helm, either.

Ok yeah, there are concerns, but I think most of these are just reaches. There's a reason he was drafted over every other quarterback in the draft and not because the Browns were just being the Browns. I think the majority of the teams would have taken Mayfield over all the others... But I guess we are just gonna have to wait and see as he yet again proves all his doubters wrong.

I agree w/some of your takes and disagree w/others.

First of all, it seems like the guys who love Baker resort to insults and name-calling way too often. There was no reason for tab to call others "clueless." Mourg actually likes Baker and was just giving his honest opinion on him. He didn't deserve to be called "clueless."

I also don't know where you are getting that he is making all of these post-snap reads and throwing w/anticipation. I'm not saying he won't be able to do those things, but he wasn't asked to in Oklahoma's offense. He also has only played a handful of plays under center. That's a concern.

Are you sure that Baker has the second strongest arm? I haven't read where people are knocking his arm, but are you sure it's the second strongest?

Speed? Not a big deal. It's just that Baker runs around a lot and Rosen doesn't. If you wanna use your legs, speed is a good asset to have.

I'm not knocking Baker. He might turn out to be a great qb. I just get irritated when Baker's biggest fans start character assassinations of anyone who dares expressing some concerns about the guy.

Having questions is not being a doubter ... HUGE DIFFERENCE ...

I rag on U (point out) cause U won’t admit that grabbing his crotch or throwing the ball at the other team during pre-games was NOT AN IMPULSIVE ACT .... thats called LYING TO YOURSELF in my world ...

I rag on U (point out) because u don’t think those actions hurt the team even though he cost them 15 years and he was benched for a series or a quarter for one of the incidents ... a 15 yard penalty OR getting benched for even a play is the DEFINITION OF HURTING THE TEAM ... just cause they won doesn’t mean it DIDN’T HURT THE TEAM ... it simply means his DUMB ASS ACTIONS didn’t COST THE TEAM A GAME ..

Notice that last sentance ... HIS actions didn’t COST the TEAM a LOSS ....

I fit into NONE of the little boxes u pigeon hole others into ...

- 100% on board with taking him even though i wanted Sam I Am ... i was getting behind this pick REGARDLESS of who it was ...

- I’ve never said a negative word about Baker ... not even when POINTING OUT your over zealous defense of his CLEARLY DUMB ACTS and the fact that folks have legite concerns that don’t bother U or I so much ... were way more in the same camp than opposite camps ... difference is I think he has a decent shot ... your ready to get his bust started all ready ...

FACT IS ... we have NO CLUE who the best QB in this class will be ... NONE ... hell it could be Mason Rudoplh or even Lamar ... u goback over the last 20 drafts and I bet u the QB taken first didn’t end up the best QB in the draft more times than they did ... see: TOM BRADY .... JOE MONTANA ... how many qb’s went before them in their drafts .. how many qb’s went before Brees and Wilson IN THERE DRAFTS... who would u rather have GOFF or WENTZ ...

- I think (HOPE) his two incidents in college that worry me were just him being inmature and getting caught up in the moment that led to DUMB ASS ACTIONS ... thats more than possible ...

- i know he has plenty of arm strength ...

- im not worried about his height but it is a legite concern ... FACT is taller QB’s have a hUGE ADVANTAGE but his height is not a killer ... other QB’s of his size and stature can thrive .. (Brees is a GREAT example ... Wilson not so much ... Wilson plays a different game than Baker .. ) ...

- i believe he is ACCURATE .. i also have questions about weather his accuracy will translate for the following reasons ... that are all LOGICAL and FACTUAL ...

1. He threw into almost no small windows ... way to small a sample size for me
2. He had guys running wide open all over the field ...
3. We have NO CLUE if he can process info fast enough or if he can anticipate recievers open CAUSE HE DIDNT HAVE TO DO IT IN COLLEGE ...

There’s more dude ... but i’[ve WASTED ENOUGH TIME on this all ready ...

U have an issue with Vers and glom the BS U and /vers go through onto others

Vers asked a real legite question ...

WHO ARE THE DOUBTERS???? ... IT CERTAINLY ISNT ME .. i have LEGITE QUESTIONS but that don’t make me a DOUBTER ... just like theres plenty of Legite questions theres also plenty to LOVE about the kid ... but until the questions are answered ... we simply don’t know ...

And IMO Vers is no angel in this BS that regularly ruins threads but I would not call him a doubter cause i know him rather well ... he does have LEGITE CONCERNS that U just won’t accept ...

You are calling me clueless?

Not sure, I think it was ratsplan...lol
Short...all that means is a deeper drop in the pocket and he is sitting like a 6'5" QB. Small, taller than Brees and a tad shorter than Rodgers. I think its a moot point as he does not have a problem of getting passes knocked down. I think Height is over rated as those 2 QBs dropped due to height and they have changed the aura about it.

Those facts about 40 speed and spread...what does that have to do with the quality of a football player. Negatives? no facts that don't mean diddly.

I saw him take 3 snaps from under center in one game so your fake fact about snaps under center are getting you close to that clueless statement even if it wasn't meant for you...lol

Documented...one occasion on his 21st birthday celebration he got drunk and campus police caught him (cause state school its State Police) he was drunk and made a drunk choice. But you and others state this as if it defines him or something...hmmm maybe you are clueless.

As for on the field yeah not what you want from a choir boy...The Browns don't need a choir boy and outside of an Inhouse 1 quarter suspension he did not put his team in jeopardy. He took a lot more crap than he dished out. You act as if he will be doing the same things as a NFL professional. On second thought, keep the clueless reference, you earned it.

Right now, you and I will include myself we don't know what he is but Short as a negative, I don't see that as a problem what evidence do you have that its a problem...TT btw is shorter. Immature, as a Brown what evidence do you have that he is immature as a Brown, what has he done verbally or physically that leads you to believe that he is.

Slow footed for what? He's not a running QB he does have mobile capabilities...what makes you think that its a negative and an existing issue.

Hmmm 100% clueless have a nice day....

It's funny. You toss around names like that but throw a fit and claim people are picking on you when you receive the same treatment. Everybody can see it.

I'm sorry did you have a football comment to make or you too busy cleaning your brown nose...

Got to run, enjoy. You guys are funny.

Everyone understands you tab, when you lose an argument you start throwing out insults. It is who you are and who you have been since the board started. You pretend to want to debate but as soon as you see yourself being proven wrong, you hit attack mode. So be it. Call me what you want if that's what it takes to make you feel better.

j/c

One of the things that always stood out to me is how Baker would stand tall in the pocket - or as tall as a 6' QB can stand. His pocket presence is impressive and noticeable. He holds the ball and sets his feet - seemingly at all times - ready to cut loose of the ball. Like a good 3pt shooter in basketball always has his feet set before receiving the basketball. Lastly, I'm regularly impressed at how he slides around in the pocket. He'll slide and instantly be in a throwing position when/if the play allows.

I do see where he relies a lot on his arm strength and doesn't use his core and legs like the great ones do. Then again, I don't remember Brady at a young age being great with his core and legs...so I would think that is something he will need to improve upon in the NFL. I expect he will quickly see that a very good and accurate arm becomes even better when assisted by the core and leg muscles. Not to mention that no one escapes father time.

I cannot recognize whether he is good at post-snap reads. Without knowing who is the primary target on a play, I think that is difficult to ascertain - it is for me anyway. I HAVE seen him stick in or around the pocket and find what appears to be NOT his primary read as the play breaks down. At the same time, I think that staying calm and finding an open guy does not necessarily equal being good at post-snap reads.

There is a lot to like with this guy...and a few issues that would be hard to evaluate with any rookie QB.

Baker put up huge numbers and made many great throws. He bought extra time by scrambling around behind the LOS.

I can't say that I agree w/him standing tall in the pocket, though. Oklahoma had the nation's best OL [according to most people who discuss such things] and Baker had a lot of time to throw. I think he bailed too many times when he didn't need to. I think this is something he will need to work on in the NFL. He should be able to improve on it. The only scary thing is that he playing behind Taylor, and Taylor holds the ball way too long and leaves the pocket too early and too often.

Hopefully he won't pick up that trait from TT.

There is something about Baker that I really grew to like during his senior year...and I despise on-filed antics and demonstrations. Maybe he's got the "it" factor and that is what I was seeing. Who knows for sure? I can hope I suppose. His on and off the field presence is impressive outside of a few stupid decisions/antics.

Related note: My season ticket buddy was so done with McCown his last year here. He didn't want McCown around any of the young QBs in fear they would learn how to play from him. It was funny because my buddy is usually pretty reserved...but he'd really go off on McCown that last year he was here. He was all about McCown as the off-filed mentor though. I don't have much issue with TT, but I understand and see the concerns of him tending to hold the ball.

I remember seeing and reading that his OU o-line was very good...and I do remember him frequently having a lot of time to throw. I also like the way he bought time with his feet.

It's interesting that with his height issue, his line was as tall or taller than the Browns oline last year. I would think that that bodes well for him to find throwing lanes...since he's surely always had to do that at his height.

Don't know if this has been posted before but it falls in line with a lot of the discussion here. Very good video with a chat between Baker and Russell Wilson. They talk about being "short", understanding throwing lanes and arm angles and buying time with your feet.

They also talk about "passion" as Baker says he might very well hate losing more than he actually loves winning. The letdown of not making it to the championship game, how to take losing as stride as a leader, etc...

One thing I always see in Baker - a genuine interest in learning from the people who have done it. He seems to absorb all advice rather than nod and act like he already knows it, which I see many young athletes do.

This, a thread where people complain about Baker and "maturity issues". lmao

I have been racking my brain as to why Dorsey drafted Baker since the day he did so. I do see some of the qb skills that he has, but in my mind, he is a project because of the offense he played in. Additionally, he is short for a qb. He scrambles, but is not fast. I think he is a question mark as a qb. He could end up being very good, but I think the bust potential is rather high.

So, I'm thinking and thinking and the only real answer I could come up with is that I think Dorsey fell in love w/Baker because he believes Baker has "it." It took me awhile to embrace that concept because of Baker's series of incidents that could lead some to question his character.

However, I think Dorsey sees an intense competitor. A guy who can lead teammates. A guy who can overcome significant odds. A guy who has the utmost confidence in himself. I think Dorsey sees some of himself in Baker.

Dorsey might be right. He might have put too much emphasis on "it." We'll see. But, there is one thing I do know...........he damn well better be right, because not too many folks that I respect had Baker as their top-rated qb.

I also think that leadership, arm talent, accuracy to all levels, and ability place the ball effectively all played a part.

I was ..... stunned when he took Baker, but hopefully he's right about him. I have long held the opinion that he will be a solid to average type QB, but the jury is still out.

We'll see. I hope that he'll be as great as Dorsey, obviously, believes.

Could also be a DePodesta, Stats driven Pick... PTF loves Mayfield...

If it was because of the IT factor, Dorsey would have never had drafted Mahomes... if any QB prospect had the IT factor in the last decade it was Deshaun Watson, yet Mahomes was the one picked by Dorsey.

Baker was never at Manziel level regarding the IT factor... that's just sweetening the pill. BM was for most the product of an efficient system, that IMHO, makes it very hard to project QB's future in the NFL.

quote by rastan:



I suspect a third possibility.

The other viable options at pick #1 made it clear they would not be happy playing for the Browns.

But then you did not need to draft a QB with the first.

If we drafted Saquan #1 and Mayfield #4 I would actually understand and be OK.

Even trading either #1 or #4 for Nick Foles...

There were so many possibilities this year...

Mayfield is, IMHO, the perfectly Stats engineered QB, so it had to be a stats fanatic to push for him (DePodesta was just me kidding with Vers)

You may actually not believe or even care, but I actually respect both Vers and Eotab points on Baker Mayfield.

I actually think that BM is a Vers Type of QB, I can see some Garappollo on BM (except the attitude), but like him, I think we can only be sure when we see him play in the NFL, and for sure not worthy being picked ahead of Rosen.

Regarding Eo's points, I actually struggle to see anything special on BM, much more than for example on Wentz. But have to give him credit on the Wentz thing...

My main point with BM, is not that I dislike him, its that I just think its crazy what we did with the QB position, with so many option we go for TT and BM... that's just crazy.

I'd agree. I don't care for the name calling. I'm not going to speak for tab but I'm guessing he's frustrated with the board. I love tab's posts however, especially when he talks offensive line.



I've watched him play and read what his coach had to say about him. Whether or not he was asked, he still did them. I think Dorsey loved the fact Mayfield learned the playbook in two days. The Oklahoma offense also ran thru Baker. It was as if he was asked to just run around and heave passes like Johnny.





Yes. And if you haven't seen the posts, they're out there. Not as many now as pre-draft because I think many realized they were wrong.




I think one of the main misconceptions about baker. He's not a running quarterback. In fact Darnold had more rushing yards one season than Baker did. Johnny rushed for more yards his heisman year than Baker did his entire career. I recall you commenting that Baker had happy or scared feet in the pocket. I thought that was one of his pluses as he was about to create if necessary. Baker would probably be labeled a pocket passer over anything else.

Jury hasn’t even been seated yet bro ...

I admitted "premeditated" was the incorrect phrasing... and I noticed you dropped the word "issues" which is MY ISSUE with this whole thing. Saying you don't care for his antics is one thing, but saying you think he has issues is a completely different story. Yes, winning is my #1 concern. I think Baker's antics actually help his team, not hurt.




That's fine. And I apologize if you felt I did. Most of the time I'm generally speaking, not specifically to one person, like now.


I also don't have issues with any posters. I gather certain posters have issues with me, however. I just speak how I feel and I believe Baker could be one of the greatest quarterbacks either in Browns history (probably not a far walk) or in the NFL. Do I know this to be fact, heck no. But signs and things I watch and read and learn says he's going to be great. I'm stoked. This is certainly a good time to be a Browns fan.






This is fair. You're not doubting him, but you have concerns. I don't have the same concerns. A lot of the concerns I see, have already been debunked in my mind. I don't think his speed will be an issue. I don't think his on field antics will be an issue. I don't think his height will be an issue.

I see people question his maturity. I don't believe there are maturity issues, either. Someone with maturity issues isn't the type of leader Baker is or gain the followers he does.



I get people want to be cautious, but I'm all in. I bought my Browns Mayfield jersey 4 weeks prior to the draft. This was without a doubt the best move the Browns could have made. This kid is going to be great. And if he flops, I'm prepared to eat crow from those on this board who were convinced he will.

I think he has the highest potential to succeed and it's not even close. Whether or not he'll be the best is another concern, but I think if you wanted to draft the quarterback that you felt had the best chance of surviving in the NFL for 10-15 years, Mayfield was the pick. This is why at one time I thought we might draft a Darnold or a Rosen... We felt Mayfield was going to be good, but was there another quarterback we thought might turn out to be better? I guess the answer was no.






100% yes!

Well ... i think one thing we can ALL AGREE on and hope for is that

Your WAY WAY closer to the mark on Baker than I was with BRADY BRADY BRADY!!!! ...

I'm not sure how you base the IT factor. Are you just watching these guys or are you adding in aspects of their game and personality?

The past 3 years my top QBs were Wentz, Mahomes, and Mayfield. To me, Mahomes certainly has IT.

I recall reading that Kansas City gave all the quarterbacks in last years draft a test, of I think memory, and Mahomes was the only one who passed. Recently, I recall listening to a podcast of "experts" (guys who do this for a living) and you know what is the top trait GMs look for in a quarterback? No, not arm strength or height, but the ability to recall information. I'd say 90% of those on the podcast (maybe 6-7 experts) said recall was #1. Mahomes has IT.


And I think Manziel was never at the Baker level for IT. And I LOVED me some Johnny. He's just a lamebrain.

I'm not predicting Hall of Fame, but I think we have a quarterback who is going to win us a Super Bowl.

Actually I made my arguments each and every one I just added the simple fact that you didn't have a clue. Your rendition of what happened is some fantasy... have a nice day

We are quick to throw QBs under the bus when the OL is statistically one of the worse with things such as holds onto the ball runs out of pocket too soon.

I watched just about every OU game and their OL was not that good in pass pro, Maybe statistically BM should get some credit for making them look good, he released the ball quickly as well as quick decisions. He bought time with his feet and always had his head up looking down field.

jmho

This is to topic not a reply.

The draft, draft analysis, and college is all over now.

Speculation on Baker no longer counts. He is in the NFL.

Going forward he will be judged by his professional record and performance.

I for one will not make a comment on Baker until he plays in a regular season game.

For the 2018 season it is all about team and the starting quarterback Tyrod Taylor.

I just want to win games.

Hey ... what r u doing ...

Get that horse back behind the cart ... have u lost your mind trying to put the horse in front of the cart .... were browns fans ... were not used to the horse being in front of the cart ... were way more used to the cart being in front of the horse ... ...

BM has the highest potential to succeed, a short pocket passer QB???? Why would anyone think that?

I can see that point made for Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, etc but for Baker Mayfield, why?

He didn't turn around his program, OU wasn't national Champion, he's not an athletic freak, he was never a Deshaun Watson or a Vince Young gimme the ball and I'll win the game type of player.

He was far from being the consensus top QB on this draft class.

His qualities are so hard to figure that he was twice a walk on...


Maybe he will turn out to be a great QB, and that would be the best news for us, but saying he was the QB with the highest potential?????

But again, nobody thought that about Tom,but he is the GOAT...

Yes. Baker has the highest potential to succeed.

Link

Can usually take these kind of statistical analyses with a grain of salt. Track record is pretty impressive though.

Top QBASE Projections, 1997-2017
Player
QBASE
Philip Rivers 1964
Carson Palmer 1916
Donovan McNabb 1799
Baker Mayfield 1480
Russell Wilson 1288
Peyton Manning 1279
Marcus Mariota 1277
Byron Leftwich 1216
Aaron Rodgers 1216
Ben Roethlisberger 1211

We watch sports because of the unknown.

Last year the Indians should have won the World Series. They won the first two games in a five game series.

Potential and stats do count anymore.

You know how many number one picks have tanked? Just think Courtney Brown.

Play the game first and let's talk about results after.

Your replies to me are in green.



Okay, I took the time to look these things up today. Here is one take:



and



Here is the link: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news...know-about-qbs/

Do you have any links that validate your claim and dispute this one?

Link

Link

Link

and

Link

The only link that remotely addresses the previous questions is that Baker did have very high ball velocity at the Combine.

I'm sorry, but I can't find the "reports" that claim Baker has the second strongest arm in the draft. And your first link said these things in regards to his post-snap reads:

Still at it with added excuses I see. Have a nice day.

+1

You are very selective with your reading.

Of course he has room for improvement, but he's not void of being able to do these things as you suggest. Rosen and Darnold will have similar growing pains.

And check the final link for second strongest arm.

I really have no idea what you are talking about. I did mention the final link. And I am not talking about him improving. I am simply responding to a couple of comments you made that I can't find proof of.

All you have to do it read the links and you'll see what you're looking for...

Or you could watch the game film.

Do you really think you're fooling anyone>

Whatever. you win. It's well documented that Baker has the second strongest arm in the draft and makes multiple post-snap reads while throwing w/anticipation.

It's weird to me that you choose to ignore the truth. And I'm not sure I understand your obsession with winning an argument.

It's not about winning or losing. You asked a question. I supplied you with what you asked and you say nope, they're wrong or that you don't see it. It's as if you were just told the sky is blue and you're trying to come up with every reason possible why it's not blue while the blue sky is staring you in the face.

Its whatevs. Carry on.

Please stop.

Done.

It's fascinating that one guy can see all of that yet another can't.

If Mayfield can carry all of that to the NFL, man we've got our QB for the next 12+ years.

Here's hoping.

Seriously?

He made two false comments. I asked him too clarify. Obviously, it's turned into something else. Just like it always does.

Except I didn't make any false comments. If anyone made false comments it was you.

And yes. You always turn things into something else.

Why don't you 2 take this intriguing conversation private? Obviously you 2 are enjoying it, but for most of the rest of us it's getting old.

Oh, and I am sure that I am speaking for many when I say that we don't care who started it, who thinks they're right, and who thinks the other is wrong ...... it was played out long ago, and now it's just written regurgitation of the same stuff over and over again. Please stop. This kind of stuff makes the board darn near unreadable.

I don't think it wise to tell people to take a debate private just so it's a bit more convenient for you, in whatever fashion that is. If that's what they want to discuss, then so be it as long as it's within the rules. It's a public message board. You can also ignore them if you want.

I gave him multiple chances to take back his claim that Baker had the second strongest arm out there. I was very cool about it.

Take a look at this:




"They" as in plural, are not out there. I even posted an article that ranked the qbs arm strength. Baker was 4th.

I don't like when false information is posted. It's deceiving. Somehow, it gets turned around and I am accused of posting false information. And the usual suspects "like" that lie.

I get that guys like you love the homer aspect, but I think we should tell the truth. For example, if I said Baker has the weakest arm in the NFL and couldn't back up my claim, would you guys let it go?

Hell no!

I'm here to tell you, that when people state untruths as facts in order to deceive others, I'm going to question them on it. I start out very politely and give them a way out, but if you wanna keep on w/the facade and then accuse me of being the one making things up, I'm going to fight back. And I really don't care if you like it or not.

And I've provided proof 3+ times now that baker has the second strongest arm this past draft and you choose to continue to deceive posters. Irony I'd say...

I guess everyone can see for themselves.




yet another link


I get you don't like baker and have questions about him but when the proof is right there before your eyes and still say its wrong its quite telling.... you can't even acknowledge it. And yet you keep telling posters I'm trying to deceive just so you can be right. That's your schtick. It's old and exhausting to play your games, but you've suckered me in good this time.

You are posting the same stuff over and over again. We all discussed this last year w/Watson and everyone agreed that the velocity thing was bogus.

You said that there were reports [as in plural] that said Baker had the second strongest arm in the draft. I doubted that and researched it. Your claim was false! I gave you multiple chances to have an out. What do you do? You turn it around and say I am making things up.

I am going to stop this argument now, but I'm tired of guys like you making stuff up.

Hue on Mayfield's arm strength



I can probably find articles ranking him 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th 5th, 6th etc... in arm strength. Opinions are like that and everyone on the internet has got one.

What do you think of Hue's opinion on the subject, Vers?

I agree w/Hue. I never ONCE questioned Baker's arm strength. Do a search and see.

Let me make this very clear..............I think Baker has a very good arm.

I used to complain about Cody's arm, but not Baker's. He has a "plus" arm in my book. I think his arm strength is underrated and it is not one of my concerns.

My issue was w/device stating that there were multiple reports that Baker had the second strongest arm. He and I have been around and around and believe me.........I did my research before I politely asked: "Are you sure Baker has the second strongest arm?"

I gave him a ton of outs. He could have said "in my opinion." He could have said, I read "about his velocity speed at the Combine." Etc. He did nothing but reiterate that there were reports that Baker had the second strongest arm in the draft. I knew that was false. Somehow...........as always...........it gets turned around to me "making things up." WTH did I make up?

Dude annoys me w/his false claims and then turning things around and claiming I am lying. Of course, Memphis and Vambo "like" his lies.

I am going to say this again.........Baker has a good arm. It's not even an issue as far as I can see. I think it can even improve if he improves his footwork, because he throws off his back foot too often.

I just maintain that it isn't a consensus that he has the second best arm in the draft. Most reports I have seen have them ranked like this:

Allen
Jackson
Rosen
Mayfield
Darnold

Dude, you reap what you sow.

I think you missed the part where he said:

"... we don't care who started it, who thinks they're right, and who thinks the other is wrong ...... it was played out long ago, and now it's just written regurgitation of the same stuff over and over again. Please stop."

Fair enough.

That is the exact order I had the top 4 ranked btw with Allen and Jackson having absolute cannons and Rosen well above average. I had Darnold a little lower on the list.

That being said, I don't think a guy having the opinion that Baker has the 2nd biggest arm in the draft is spreading misinformation. I just think he doesn't grade QB's the same way that I do.

I yi yi yi. Defending the perp due to personalities.

I have maintained that we should tell the truth when we act like we are stating facts. Apparently, that isn't important to you guys.

Wow. So now you're calling out Jfan?

I don't think opinions are facts.

Wow! I'm saying that I never lied. I am saying that device made things up. I have pretty much proven it. But, you guys keep slamming me.

Where are guys like 32 and Ytown saying that you guys are over the line? I never made one false statement.

You are too funny. If you could, please link to a post where I stated "there were multiple reports that Baker had the second strongest arm" so I can finally admit I was wrong and you are right.

I agree, you don't lie. You just bend and twist words trying to make someone look bad.

I just did........a few posts up.

I think you missed the part where he said:

"... we don't care who started it, who thinks they're right, and who thinks the other is wrong ...... it was played out long ago, and now it's just written regurgitation of the same stuff over and over again. Please stop."

No. You didn't.

Got it. How dare I question a lie. It doesn't matter what truth is..........just let it go...right?

Btw.............did you guys read all the reports that Baker had the weakest arm in the draft

According to your own list you don't agree with those reports, so why are you using those opinions to attack someone else's?

I thought I explained this to your earlier. I am NOT attacking his opinions. I am questioning his so-called factual claims.

Whatever man, I get what this is about. It's about personalities. The dude lied. I respectfully gave him multiple outs. Eventually, he turns it around and acts like I lying. People like his post and defend him. It's about personalities and not the truth.

So be it. This is my last post on the topic and it's just another brick in the wall.

Like I mentioned earlier, Clem made a post earlier of how many good posters are gone and how "rocks" dominate this board..............great. You get device and not me. Good luck w/that.

I think you finally read the part where he said:

"... we don't care who started it, who thinks they're right, and who thinks the other is wrong ...... it was played out long ago, and now it's just written regurgitation of the same stuff over and over again. Please stop."

I think you are being unfair. But, I am not surprised by that.

One says 'yes' and one says 'no' and I'm not willing to spend my time researching it further. As far as I'm concerned, there is no line here to be crossed. A totally different situation than that on which I commented a few days ago...

I'm confused...

Is Baker's arm strong or not?

If we could get some links to show that others think his arm is strong, then we can think his arm is strong too!

Links! Links! I really want to think his arm is strong!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spor...m=.c19a15da56a6



https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/dr...-1-overall-pick



https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2769...and-browns-pick

I thought his arm strength was adequate to slightly above average during the pre-draft stuff