DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Will Cleveland Browns' Hue Jackson be a coach in name only? Bill Livingston

I think that was two years ago, but I get the years mixed up because he hasn't been available for so many of them.

I really did have more hope this time. That is why this one hurt more. I never trusted him at all in previous years.

It was two seasons ago, then in the spring of 2017 he had another issue but I can't recall details of that.

Most of these guys are 20 somethings...you don't really leave the mistake zone until you are 40 something, and even then you can have a screw-up.


None the less, we are set up to win at least 7 games. Joe Thomas thinks we will win 8 games minimum.

Josh Gordon doesn't change that since we should have won 3-4 last year without him.

LOL!
No offence peen.

Because we're bringing back the coach that went 1-15 and 0-16. I just hope after this season we're not like the carpenter who said, "damn, I cut it twice and it's still too short!".

To win anything, you have to have talent. The coach does not throw, block, catch, or run. The head coach is more administrator than coach. If the GM does not get him talent, no matter how much the coach works, the wins are not there. We have heard for 2 years how Sashi was not signing talent, how the Browns were being torn down to bare bones talent wise, to build for the future. This is the first year, since 2007, we have had much talent. Why don't we see how it goes before we criticize the team.

JMHO

Certain "fans" keep using the record when talking about Hue, but never seem to acknowledge that the plan [which Hue did not make] was to blow-up the roster and acquire a lot of assets. Sashi and Haslam both said they were going to lose a ton of games. They get a pass and it's all Hue's fault.

I think there are some of these guys that would rather see the Browns lose so they can be "right" about Hue.

I don't think that any HC would fully agree to accept short-term "pain" for long-term "gain". That is not conducive to continued employment. So yes, I agree that Hue had little, if any, input, into the previous regime's plan...

He may have agreed to it, but he didn't orchestrate it. I do think the magnitude of so much losing wore on him. Losing is tough, especially in such a public venue.

With all of that said, I don't know if Hue is a good coach. I just think he deserves an opportunity to coach a team that at least has some talent.

I also think some folks are overrating our talent. I believe Vegas has us at 5.5 wins and that most prognosticators have us 31st or 32nd in the power rankings.

I think some of the optimists are excited about the talent we brought in and are just being fans w/their excitement. tab is one of those guys. Others, are setting unrealistic expectations so Hue will look worse when we don't meet those lofty win totals. I won't even mention peen as being one of those posters.

Just curious .... Witch one of your “boxes” do i fit in?

Cause i’m Very very optimistic and i don’t hate Hue as our HC and am 100% on board with giving him a shot without every single damm card in the deck being stacked against him .... and i’m certainly not known around these parts for EVER BEING OPTOMISTIC much less OVERLY OPTOMISTIC ...

U know what i wish ...

Never mind .... i never get what i wish ... *L* ....

Anyhow what box do u put me in?

[X} Undecided.

Your obsession w/trashing Hue last year bordered on the insane. Furthermore, you have never been so optimistic in the past. And while the talent has improved, the team still has some major question marks at key positions, such as QB,LT, and CB. There are also question marks at RT, DT, and FS.

On the other hand, you make some legit points when expressing your optimism and more importantly, I really am hoping you are not that sinister.

I just looked at the 4 comparisons/upgrades you gave and had a really positive feel with all but one of them. At least you could have put that one last, lol.

*L* at the X and undecided ...

That was funny ...

Not rehashing ... we have completely different takes on how i treated Hue last year ...

Since the season ended (at the bye week for me ... *L*) ... i’ve sounded almost exactly like U ...

Moving on ...

QB is not a question to me ... i believe U and I both know what were getting ... MOST think were getting more than we are ... a few think were getting WAY MORE than we are ... *L* ...

At the end of the day ... TT is a HUGE UPGRADE over what we had last year ...

I look at it in terms of how much we improved as opposed to what TT brings to the table ... IMO if we had TT as QB last year we definetly win 3 or 4 games ... so I look at that fact and couple it with the talent upgrades ... i am extremely optomistic for those reasons ...

I think LT is not a question mark either .. i think it SUCKS ASS .... we need to “adjust” to that ... *L* ...

CB ... see QB ... same thing ... Carrie and dude from Oakland may be average at best ... but below average is a HUGE UPGRADE over last year ... HUGE ... and that doesn’t take Ward into account ...

As far as me being sinister ... u have a bunch of mis conceptions about me and if u think i am sinister u can add that to the list ...

I think that Taylor is a huge upgrade over Kizer, but I still think he is below average. Being below average at the most important position on the field is not a good thing and should temper some of the enthusiasm. Watching that video that was posted earlier that showed a few plays w/Taylor at qb. I commented earlier on how short he is. You could tell he couldn't see over the line on that one play and then started to scramble around w/out seeing downfield. You've followed his career some and I think you can make the connection.

I think Carrie is the cb who played for the Raiders. You may be thinking of E.J. Gaines. He played w/the Bills last year and the Rams before that. Bro, Oakland's pass D sucked last year and they didn't want Carrie back. What's that tell you. LOL I do think our corners are better this year, but are they that much better? They could end up being good, but right now, it's still a question mark.

The same can be said of Randall at FS.

No one is talking about RT, but Hubbard played a lot inside at Pittsburgh. We'll see.

I don't think you are sinister. In fact, that is why I put it on the "fan" side of the equation.

One thing neither of us mentioned is losing Gordon is a huge blow. I had our WR unit ranked high. W/out Josh, that grade goes way, way down. One can say "he'll be back," but I say that is questionable. We don't know the real answer. And as long as he isn't here, we sure as hell can't count on him.

Valid point. Hue was not entirely responsible for 1-31. Sashi bears much of that burden. So it is not fair for fans to entirely blame Hue for the last two years.

However, it is very fair to blame Hue for the following:

• Poor QB assessment ability and QB coaching - RG3, Kessler, Kizer
  
• Throwing his players under the bus - Crowell, Kizer
  
• Too many stab-in-the-back media leaks during his bureaucratic knife fight with Sashi
  
• Too many lies told to players and media
  
• Inability/Refusal to adapt his game plan during games
  
• Too many blown sideline calls during the pressure of real time games
  
• Inability/Refusal to adapt game plan to what little talent he had
  
• Refusal to run the ball when it made sense to do so

Hue had very little talent to work with the past two years thanks to Sashi. This is true.

But he did plenty of stupid things all on his own to make a very bad situation much worse.

The Haslams have to count Hue Jackson's first two years against him: Doug Lesmerises

Updated 9:35 AM; Posted 9:35 AM
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/07/the_haslams_have_to_count_hue.html


By Doug Lesmerises, cleveland.com dlesmerises@cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Why is anyone sure we haven't already seen the real Hue Jackson?

Jimmy Haslam is expecting RHJ (Real Hue Jackson) now.

"I think we will see the real Hue Jackson," is what the Browns owner told reporters Saturday. I don't know who that coach was the last two years then, but someone should find that guy and ask him what he was doing.

Evaluating Jackson's job performance should and must go beyond his 1-31 record, and for Jimmy and Dee Haslam, it obviously does. No one is looking at the .031 Cleveland winning percentage on Jackson's resume and thinking, "Yes, keep that guy. He seems to bathe in success."

But they kept Jackson, and that's a fact, and arguing backward against it is a waste of time. So let's argue forward.

Jackson wasn't fired for his first two seasons. Fine. But no one should throw away those two years. He doesn't get a do-over.

He gets an open mind for this season, but not a blank slate. It wasn't fair to judge him only on victories, but you could judge him on personnel decisions, the staff he hired, his in-game strategy and clock management, how he worked with management and the way he presented his team to the world and oversaw the locker room.

Nobody set the building on fire during one win in two years. Jackson gets some credit for that.

As I've said many times, many coaches would have done better than 0-16 last year. The front office, by design, set up the Browns for losing, but it's Jackson who drove them to 0-16, aided by co-pilot DeShone Kizer, who got the jersey judged right off of him for last year.

Was that, a 21-year-old rookie thrown in with failing receivers and no offensive coordinator, the real DeShone Kizer, as the Haslams might ask? Didn't matter. It was the Kizer the Browns got, and he wasn't good enough. So he's gone.

So yes, that was Real Hue Jackson last year. RHJ fought with his GM, won a power struggle, insisted on calling his own plays, yanked quarterbacks in and out of the lineup, and made a difficult job seem impossible - that was all real Hue.

If he's changed now - wearing matching outfits with new GM John Dorsey, hiring Todd Haley to call his plays, going all-in with veteran QB Tyrod Taylor - that's new Hue.

Maybe it'll work. But it won't wipe away last year.

This may just be owner talk. The Haslams coming out Saturday and placing a win total on Jackson, or explaining to the world that of course a 1-31 coach is on thin ice, wouldn't have accomplished anything.

But my fear about those words is this.

Say Josh Gordon never comes back. Say injuries strike a few crucial players. Say Gregg Williams shows that blitzing constantly isn't the way to go and the defense, which Jackson has much less experience with, lets the team down, but it's Williams who takes the blame. Say the quarterback situation turns messy through something other than Jackson's habit of panicking, and the offense gets sideways again.

Say the season doesn't go as hoped, and there are a million reasons for it.

Say the owners would have some reason to say, well that wasn't RHJ either. Say we're back here again next preseason, after a three-win season, with a roster featuring young potential that hasn't reached it, and a coach who hasn't yet shown he knows how to handle it.

That's a problem. If Jackson's back next year, it must be a result of proving he should be, not a result of owners believing he still hasn't had the chance to be RHJ yet.

"We are excited about Hue Jackson," Jimmy Haslam said. "I think our commitment to him has been unwavering and still is."

That's a problem, too. Haslam has fired head coaches and GMs quickly in the past, and he's gone overboard now with Jackson support. But a coach doesn't need or deserve unwavering support. He needs to know he's being judged fairly, but he needs to be held accountable.

The franchise needs unwavering support from the Haslams. The fans need unwavering support.

That would include remembering Jackson's first two years while giving him year three.

Open mind, yes.

Blank slate, not even close.

My feeling is this... If Hue coached the Patriots, with the Patriots' roster, went 1 -31.. Fire his ass. If Hue coached the Packers, with the Packers' roster, went 1-31, Fire his ass. If Hue coached the Falcons, went 1-31, Fire him. However, Hue coached the Browns, with a GM who publicly stated, "The next 2 years will be painful, we will lose a lot." and this was after 3 and 4 win seasons, as if those seasons were not painful enough. I feel that NO ONE, not Paul Brown, not Bill Walsh, not Marty Shottenhiemer, not Blanton Collier could have done better with the roster Hue had to work with. So, keep Hue around for another year.

JMHO

Both Haslam and Dorsey have a firm grasp of the obvious. Too bad a few of our fans don't.

This is one of the clowns I was talking about earlier when I said I am glad that Haslam is ignoring his BS.

I'm fine with giving him another year here ... in fact, I'd probably do the same if I owned the team. The last two seasons were probably filled with the worst talent/circumstances possible.

BUT, I also think we HAVE to look better and WIN this year. We should not be blown out, we should not have long losing streaks, and we should not be a walk-over game

I don't think he is wrong, it's just hard to say how much. Is it 50/50 for Sashi vs Hue? Is it 80/20? That's what the Haslams have to decide. It's apparent they thought it was more Sashi than Hue or Hue would be gone too, but Hue definitely carries some of the blame as well.

We have to win now. Not a Super Bowl, but we have to win 6+ games and show major growth.