Bill Livingston, The Plain Dealer blivingston@plaind.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio - I have seen the light.
I have grasped the wily machinations behind an otherwise unbelievable decision.
I understand at last why Hue Jackson -- of the "One will do," "Not a clue," "Should be through" Hues, with the pathetic, pitiful, and plainly putrid 1-31 record -- is still the Cleveland Browns' coach.
Doing no harm
The Browns' front office has simply taken a football version of a doctor's Hippocratic Oath, in which the most important rule is: First do no harm.
The way to keep the franchise out of harm's way is to keep Jackson from really coaching while owner Hotspur Haslam, obviously trying to refute his well-deserved reputation for being quick on the trigger, waits until, oh, Thanksgiving or so before making Hue really most sincerely through.
Remember Hue's big day?
Jackson is set up as a bigger figurehead than some of the coaches and general managers of the Cleveland Cavaliers in the years when LeBron James is on the roster.
Haslam, of course, never should have guaranteed Jackson's job, although it did lead to some of that trademark Browns' fans sarcasm with half-hearted celebrations on Facebook and Twitter of "Hue Jackson Day" on Jan. 31 (1-31, get it?).
What Hue won't do
As long-time friend and retired Toledo Blade sports columnist John Gugger asked in an email, how many coaching tasks are going to be missing from the Jackson portfolio this fall?
He won't be calling the plays anymore. Todd Haley will.
He wanted to trade for A.J. McCarron at quarterback. No go, in what many feel was one of the best deals the Browns didn't make.
He wants input on the draft.
No go. After the Browns drafted Cody Kessler at quarterback in the third round, Hue said, "Trust me on this one."
Why?
The Browns traded Kessler to Jacksonville this week after he showed little but a weak arm.
General manager John Dorsey will do the heavy lifting on the draft.
Quarterback whisperer?
Jackson was supposed to develop quarterbacks.
But the purported "quarterback whisperer" contracted a bad case of play-calling inanity in a bombs-away offense that magnified rookie DeShone Kizer's inaccuracy.
Down and distance prudence went out the window
The whisperer made his quarterback a tackling dummy/interception machine (choose one or both) because the protection had to be maintained for so long.
Also because Kizer had the pocket presence of change falling out of a hole in an inattentive man's pants.
Tom Brady was a sensational find in the sixth round of the draft. Kizer was a pick based on youth and potential in the second round.
Brady spent a year on the bench, learning.
Kizer was thrown to the wolves. Then benched. Then re-thrown to the wolves.
Hue had a "strong" arm, though
Jackson unlimbered the old soup bone long enough to throw Isaiah Crowell under the bus after the running back's best play of the season. It was a stupid thing to do.
So let's review:
Couldn't judge talent. Couldn't develop it. Couldn't call a decent game.
Could, however, spin the hell out of some media members and the owner. That's enough for Haslam, which says a lot.
The bottom line is the bottom-est ever
Bill Parcells said, famously, 'You are what your record says you are."
Jackson's record here is the worst for two years in NFL history.
Well this Bill Livingston Character seems to like Hue Jackson................
I'm not a fan of this article at all. I don't remember reading much of his stuff, and from the looks of it he seems to be a real donkey using a shovel.
I mean, seriously. What's the point of this? It's April, a time of year to be excited about the team. Things have been restructured. He's got no idea what's actually going on, and he spews this garbage.
I figured we'd fire Hue. We didn't. That's fine too. But I don't like this kind of trash. The draft's coming up. We had an exciting free agency. Why put this article together bashing our coach?
the thing i will say about this article is that yes, he does hold the worst record in nfl history.
he could, in theory, go 16-0 this year, and still have a 17-31 record as a HC for the browns, 25-39 overall.
thats trash. straight up.
the other thing is that no matter what SPIN JOB people try to put on this, at the end of the day, Hue wanted AJ, could've got AJ, but instead Dorsey said "nah, imma get Tyrod instead".
at the very least, it doesn't appear that Hue has much say so in the players right now. yall can say what you want, but at the end of the day, Hue wanted one player that could've been EASILY here, but Dorsey went a complete opposite direction.
i mean AJ and Tyrod are nothing alike.
that being said....i would have a massive problem if Hue was on the HC in name only. because it's not about hue's coaching ability so much as it is wasting the fan base and players time. if Dorsey would've just canned the guy (obviously Haslam said keep him), very few - if any- of us would've had an issue with it.
but i will have an issue if Dorsey's plan was to basically have Hue a placeholder until he lost X amount of games. it would've been yet another failure of a decision by Haslam as well.
I think dorsey truly does want to make this work with Hue. but i can't ignore the fact that Hue said he likes his QB's to be <insert whatever criteria> and then dorsey goes and gets the complete opposite.
i think Dorsey is fine with Hue being involved in other positions, but i wonder how much input does Hue have in who we actually draft at QB?
cause its certainly plausible that maybe Dorsey values Haley's judgement over Hue's. its something to think about.
Perhaps he should be bashing Sashi.1-31 will get you a lot of well deserved criticism. Nothing in the article is false,it's his view and he's entitled to it.
You know your life sucks when you spend your day searching the internet for articles to push an agenda.
Local Cleveland area reporter no search needed, apparently if someones opinion varies from yours you just make child like remarks and third grade personal attacks and your mob cheers you on.
Perhaps he should be bashing Sashi.1-31 will get you a lot of well deserved criticism. Nothing in the article is false,it's his view and he's entitled to it.
Perhaps he should be bashing Sashi.1-31 will get you a lot of well deserved criticism. Nothing in the article is false,it's his view and he's entitled to it.
Sure, but it's like that "If Hue is fired mid season" thread or whatever.
I just don't see the point.
Hue's going to be the coach. This is the offseason. The Regular season is miserable. Don't make this miserable too
Why the negative spin in the offseason?
Honestly, I don't want to read that article right now. That trash should be written toward the end of a crappy season. Not when hope is in the air
Look Dorsey is the new Sheriff or let's say the new Captain of this ship, which was sinking fast, now he is raising it up and Hue is just along for the ride, and it may be a short ride for him ... JMHO
Hue's going to be the coach for the next two years... thats what expansion teams do... on top of that a #1 overall pick at QB that you dont want to confuse with new coaching... yep.. atleast two more years
Oh there's a point. Stir crap up by posting opinion pieces further trashing and junking up a message board that used to be pretty good.
See, here's what he does. He posts BS to get people worked up. To spread division. Then somehow tries to twist that into blaming the people who point it out.
Oh there's a point. Stir crap up by posting opinion pieces further trashing and junking up a message board that used to be pretty good.
See, here's what he does. He posts BS to get people worked up. To spread division. Then somehow tries to twist that into blaming the people who point it out.
It's like he thinks it's the political forum.
You mean like you are doing here?
You didn't have to respond if you felt the article had no merit but by your tantrum the truth of it hurts your feelings.
The easiest way to get rid of a thread is to not respond it will go away on it's own.
Yup, head cheerleader/coach type like Tomlin. Was told right before Haley was hired (by a certain know it all) that I was wrong. With certain structures almost anyone can be a head coach, even worked for Cowher drooling all over the place.
Hey I just have a firm grasp of the obvious. From the responses it seems most posters do. And thanks to the post jumping feature it doesn't take that much time to respond. lol
Bill Livingston is one of the few Cleveland sports journalists I like to read. His book "Above and beyond" was pretty awesome.
There seems to be some agenda posting in this thread, but it's by the people attacking it.
He's not the only one noticing the emperor has no clothes and the 1-31 head coach still owes the Cleveland fan base a jump in the lake.
He's been writing for the PD since back when I was in High School.
Livingston was one of the few guys cautioning everyone about what a mistake it would be to throw huge long term money at DA. He wanted us to tag him and then see if anyone tried to sign him anyway. We could either have taken the picks or matched the offer then. Sure enough, we got scared and threw it all at him and then got rid of him as soon as he stumbled.
The usual suspects have a hard time when you point out something that is pretty clear to everyone else.
A good HC lets his coaches do their job. It seems Livingston doesn't like that. Todd's offense is very similar to the run Hue likes to run so I don't see where Hue needs to call plays. A real leader finds the best people he can for each job or position. We have a OC and a DC that are very tough minded on players and we have a HC who is great at motivation and smoothing things over. I think it's the perfect coaching set up for long term success.
Hue just has to make sure the systems they use become the Browns' system and we have coaches ready to use them when the OC and DC move on to be HCs themselves after finding success here. Then again these guys take the Browns to a superbowl then they might never want to leave because they will be Gods in Cleveland.
At the very least we will win several games this season. Dorsey is making sure he has players for his coaches.
Pointless! What is it a re-cap? on March 30th? What's the point?
When was it discussed about "Hue Jackson be a coach in name only?" ?
Hue being fired has been discussed but never seen this topic here before.
You may not see the point but others may wish to discuss it why not let them have the chance without the snarky comments and personal attacks?
My apology, 1. When I made that response I had only seen the original post and no responses due to slow loading. 2. My response was meant for the writer of the article, Bill Livingston, not you.
Pointless! What is it a re-cap? on March 30th? What's the point?
When was it discussed about "Hue Jackson be a coach in name only?" ?
Hue being fired has been discussed but never seen this topic here before.
You may not see the point but others may wish to discuss it why not let them have the chance without the snarky comments and personal attacks?
My apology, 1. When I made that response I had only seen the original post and no responses due to slow loading. 2. My response was meant for the writer of the article, Bill Livingston, not you.
The draft's coming up. We had an exciting free agency. Why put this article together bashing our coach?
Honestly PeteyD that's what frustrates me the most.. Everything seems to be aligning in place... Then the reality of knowing who is going to Coach all of this to see it through is kind of scary....
1-31 is what it is..simple ..black and white.. 1-31 it's not promising at all... putting aside how I feel you feel or how others feel about Hue.. the fact is...1-31
I'm excited about how Dorsey is putting things together..it's that 1-31 that makes me worry..
Can Hue win with what Dorsey is doing..I don't know yet..if he does it will be great and enjoyable..and I will gladly start to support him... But until then...and only then... I will keep the way I feel about him the same... No agenda here just plain ol how i feel..feelings.
I didn't think his clock management and Challenges were good.
His play calling especially in the Red Zone were lacking and then you have him throwing players coaches under the bus not good leadership.
I believe he was sorta pushed into the new OC I don't think if Hue had his way Todd would be here, then willing to give a second and third for AJ he did similar in Oakland giving 2 firsts for Palmer was it? He was an OK OC in Cincy but lacking in HC in his two stints 9-39 is it?
Look, last season, I wanted Hue gone for anybody else, but it's Haslems' decision, Hue didn't get fired.
As long as he "is" the coach, then you need to let him 'be' the coach. And he's got to have "some" say, and at least input, and he's got to be on board with what's going on in the organization. If a team had a coach only as a puppet or figurehead and just kept him out of the loop and muddied the waters of what really is the structure of what's going on and who does what, then that team would be doing something out of the ordinary, to say the least. (indefensible, unorthodox, crazy, insane, out of their minds)
I'm not so sure that I agree with that statement. I will admit that with the hiring of Haley, Hue's role will be lessened thus his exposure (media) as well...
Can Hue win with what Dorsey is doing..I don't know yet..if he does it will be great and enjoyable..and I will gladly start to support him... But until then...and only then... I will keep the way I feel about him the same... No agenda here just plain ol how i feel..feelings.
Oh, I don't want to get into an argument with folks on the board.
That's not my deal. l just didn't like the article. It pissed me off when I read it. As others have felt, "What's the point?"
An article like this should have been written when Hue was given the vote of confidence after the season was over. At this point, Hue's the coach.
We wanted him to hire an Offensive Coordinator, he got a really good one. And that seems to be used against him, as he's a lame duck.
QB, Livingston assumed that all he wanted was AJ McCaron. There was a ton of speculation last year (before the season, before Tyrod's option was picked up/contract restructured or whatever) that we wanted Tyrod Taylor, and he wasn't available. I mean, we were all talking about it. But now it's, "Hue wanted AJ. Dorsey said he doesn't care, so he got Tyrod". How does anyone know that Tyrod wasn't high on Hue's list too?
I just, this article sucked. It seemed like a, "Here's why our coach sucks. He won't be doing anything. He has no power" article. Which seems ridiculous. And I don't get the point.
I wish I never read it. The article brought nothing good to the table.
Just my opinion of course. People can read what they want, and he can write what he wants. I just thought it was crappy and lame. Especially since Hue is going to be the coach next year. I prefer the positive thought. I've got plenty of time next year to want to fire Hue when we start sucking. I don't need that in my life right now. November through December is already enough for the year, lol
I agree w Pete. It's the eve of April, the Draft is this month.. and that is the most optimistic day of the year to be a Browns fan. I'm ready for good news, Tabby's optimism.. a new hope..
I'm not sure I see the point to Livingston right now.
Oh come on, Saint..... I thought livingston's piece was close to a hatchet job, but I see no reason that hue's future as our HC shouldn't be debated whenever people want to talk about it.
If it spoils anyone's giddiness, they need to grow thicker skin. And a pair.
Can Hue win with what Dorsey is doing..I don't know yet..if he does it will be great and enjoyable..and I will gladly start to support him... But until then...and only then... I will keep the way I feel about him the same... No agenda here just plain ol how i feel..feelings.
Oh, I don't want to get into an argument with folks on the board.
That's not my deal. l just didn't like the article. It pissed me off when I read it. As others have felt, "What's the point?"
An article like this should have been written when Hue was given the vote of confidence after the season was over. At this point, Hue's the coach.
We wanted him to hire an Offensive Coordinator, he got a really good one. And that seems to be used against him, as he's a lame duck.
QB, Livingston assumed that all he wanted was AJ McCaron. There was a ton of speculation last year (before the season, before Tyrod's option was picked up/contract restructured or whatever) that we wanted Tyrod Taylor, and he wasn't available. I mean, we were all talking about it. But now it's, "Hue wanted AJ. Dorsey said he doesn't care, so he got Tyrod". How does anyone know that Tyrod wasn't high on Hue's list too?
I just, this article sucked. It seemed like a, "Here's why our coach sucks. He won't be doing anything. He has no power" article. Which seems ridiculous. And I don't get the point.
I wish I never read it. The article brought nothing good to the table.
Just my opinion of course. People can read what they want, and he can write what he wants. I just thought it was crappy and lame. Especially since Hue is going to be the coach next year. I prefer the positive thought. I've got plenty of time next year to want to fire Hue when we start sucking. I don't need that in my life right now. November through December is already enough for the year, lol
Great Points!
I haven't heard what positive things Hue has done the past 2 seasons other than motivation.
Do you think he was good at clock management?
Do you think he was good at Challenges?
Do you think he was good at developing QBs?
Do you think his play calling was good?
Do you think his throwing players coaches under the bus was good leadership?
I agree w Pete. It's the eve of April, the Draft is this month.. and that is the most optimistic day of the year to be a Browns fan. I'm ready for good news, Tabby's optimism.. a new hope..
I'm not sure I see the point to Livingston right now.
So why did you open the thread? Just to complain?
So you don't disagree with the authors points you just want positive posts, problem I couldn't find any about Hue.
Hue is a good coach, even though his record as HC is lacking. Players like him, and play hard for him. He has been a good coach for quite a while.
Besides a serious lack of experience and talent to work with, his team played hard. Slackers stayed on the bench. Trying to run the whole team, and run the offense with very little experience on the field was too much for him. I think he knows that too.
With good coordinators, Hue should be a good HC. Without having to run the offense, I believe he can focus more on the game itself in total. Having to spend time during the game trying to get a rookie QB ready for the next series, IMO, took his focus away from the big picture.
I expect him to succeed as the "manager" of the team. The thing a HC should be.
Hue is a good coach, even though his record as HC is lacking. Players like him, and play hard for him. He has been a good coach for quite a while.
Besides a serious lack of experience and talent to work with, his team played hard. Slackers stayed on the bench. Trying to run the whole team, and run the offense with very little experience on the field was too much for him. I think he knows that too.
With good coordinators, Hue should be a good HC. Without having to run the offense, I believe he can focus more on the game itself in total. Having to spend time during the game trying to get a rookie QB ready for the next series, IMO, took his focus away from the big picture.
I expect him to succeed as the "manager" of the team. The thing a HC should be.
What parts of game management do you feel he excelled at other than motivator?
I think Dorsey figured out that he can't work with him and can't fire him, so he'll work around him.
Haley's running the offense with his own playbook and will be calling the plays. GW already had full charge of the defense. AJ isn't in the QB room. Hue didn't get the OC that he wanted.
I think the only thing left is the quiet announcement (probably in a preseason game) that someone in the booth will be calling down the red flag challenges from the booth.
That's the last piece of insurance Dorsey needs to make sure things don't get all Hued up.
I still think if we start off slow, Hue's going to get the ax, but no matter who we make the interim HC, we won't skip a beat.
If Hue can pull off a few early wins, he'll get a few rah-rahs from what was built around him.
Everyone wants to criticize Hue for not winning when the team was stripped to the studs and the best player on the offense was the Left Tackle. Everything is situational, remember the "Best Head Coach in Football" could not win in Cleveland after Model announced the move. Wonder why? Couldn't motivate ? Poor Strategy ? Poor Clock management ?
Give me a break. You need players. Ron Turcotte couldn't win with Secretariat if he's had to carry the horse instead of the horse carrying him.
What parts of game management do you feel he excelled at other than motivator?
I am not saying he did good at it last year, that was my point. His focus needs to be on the game at all times. Trying to be the HC and also running the offense with very little talent, let alone not a decent QB on the roster, took his focus away from the game. I believe that if he can focus on the field at all times, he will make better judgements.
This is just how I see it, you don't have to agree, it is just a feeling I have.
What parts of game management do you feel he excelled at other than motivator?
I am not saying he did good at it last year, that was my point. His focus needs to be on the game at all times. Trying to be the HC and also running the offense with very little talent, let alone not a decent QB on the roster, took his focus away from the game. I believe that if he can focus on the field at all times, he will make better judgements.
This is just how I see it, you don't have to agree, it is just a feeling I have.
Who's idea was it to be HC/OC? Shurmur did it with Weedon and Trent and won games he was HC/OC wasn't he?
I haven't heard what positive things Hue has done the past 2 seasons other than motivation.
Do you think he was good at clock management?
Do you think he was good at Challenges?
Do you think he was good at developing QBs?
Do you think his play calling was good?
Do you think his throwing players coaches under the bus was good leadership?
Honestly, most of those things I thought went pretty poorly.
A lot of times I thought he had too much on his plate. It's of the reasons i'm happy we got Todd Haley in here.
I don't remember him throwing coaches under the bus. I think in terms of players he might have a little, maybe Deshone, beyond that I don't remember that well either.
As I said, I expected him to be fired (who keeps their job after going 0-16), and while I wasn't for firing him, I wasn't for keeping him.
Hue is here though. And I really hope that things are better this season. That the restructuring is good. That many of the things you mentioned is better.
And we did rid ourselves of Teflon Tabor, so that's good. That's been a real long-time coming.
Anyway, my point still stands. This article should have been written at the end of the season or right after we kept Hue. It's April. This is after Free Agency and right before the Draft. I desperately want this coaching regime to work out. I like our coordinators. The players seem to like Hue and play hard for him. I'm excited about Dorsey. I want this to work.
And this article seems to be written at the wrong time IMO. It's late. There's nothing to accomplish. I can start thinking about firing Hue Jackson when we're 2-9 or something in November. Not in April. Because, no matter what, he's gonna be around next season.
So, yeah, I don't care for this article. It's not my cup of tea at all. I don't see the point, and it just seemed like an attack job for no reason. Right now is not the time for that. Ownership is giving him another chance, it's been 3 months since Black Monday. Time to move on
What parts of game management do you feel he excelled at other than motivator?
I am not saying he did good at it last year, that was my point. His focus needs to be on the game at all times. Trying to be the HC and also running the offense with very little talent, let alone not a decent QB on the roster, took his focus away from the game. I believe that if he can focus on the field at all times, he will make better judgements.
This is just how I see it, you don't have to agree, it is just a feeling I have.
Who's idea was it to be HC/OC? Shurmur did it with Weedon and Trent and won games he was HC/OC wasn't he?
What does this have to do with Shurmur? He sucked. This is my opinion, said you didn't have to agree. But if you feel you have to be right, have at it.
What parts of game management do you feel he excelled at other than motivator?
I am not saying he did good at it last year, that was my point. His focus needs to be on the game at all times. Trying to be the HC and also running the offense with very little talent, let alone not a decent QB on the roster, took his focus away from the game. I believe that if he can focus on the field at all times, he will make better judgements.
This is just how I see it, you don't have to agree, it is just a feeling I have.
Who's idea was it to be HC/OC? Shurmur did it with Weedon and Trent and won games he was HC/OC wasn't he?
What does this have to do with Shurmur? He sucked. This is my opinion, said you didn't have to agree. But if you feel you have to be right, have at it.
Yet he still had a better record than Hue with Cleveland!
Oh come on, Saint..... I thought livingston's piece was close to a hatchet job, but I see no reason that hue's future as our HC shouldn't be debated whenever people want to talk about it.
If it spoils anyone's giddiness, they need to grow thicker skin. And a pair.
That's nice, because I did express my opinion and participated in the debate in a reasonable polite manner, I get told to grow a pair. And you know what you can do right?
What parts of game management do you feel he excelled at other than motivator?
I am not saying he did good at it last year, that was my point. His focus needs to be on the game at all times. Trying to be the HC and also running the offense with very little talent, let alone not a decent QB on the roster, took his focus away from the game. I believe that if he can focus on the field at all times, he will make better judgements.
This is just how I see it, you don't have to agree, it is just a feeling I have.
Who's idea was it to be HC/OC? Shurmur did it with Weedon and Trent and won games he was HC/OC wasn't he?
What does this have to do with Shurmur? He sucked. This is my opinion, said you didn't have to agree. But if you feel you have to be right, have at it.
Yet he still had a better record than Hue with Cleveland!
What parts of game management do you feel he excelled at other than motivator?
I am not saying he did good at it last year, that was my point. His focus needs to be on the game at all times. Trying to be the HC and also running the offense with very little talent, let alone not a decent QB on the roster, took his focus away from the game. I believe that if he can focus on the field at all times, he will make better judgements.
This is just how I see it, you don't have to agree, it is just a feeling I have.
Who's idea was it to be HC/OC? Shurmur did it with Weedon and Trent and won games he was HC/OC wasn't he?
What does this have to do with Shurmur? He sucked. This is my opinion, said you didn't have to agree. But if you feel you have to be right, have at it.
Yet he still had a better record than Hue with Cleveland!
Oh come on, Saint..... I thought livingston's piece was close to a hatchet job, but I see no reason that hue's future as our HC shouldn't be debated whenever people want to talk about it.
If it spoils anyone's giddiness, they need to grow thicker skin. And a pair.
That's nice, because I did express my opinion and participated in the debate in a reasonable polite manner, I get told to grow a pair. And you know what you can do right?
For the record I think Hue was cast into a hopeless situation that he handled poorly.
If he and those that believe he is a good coach (hand raised) want to see this kind of talk go away he needs to win some games, I think he gets that.
Whether you agree with the criticism or not it comes with the job and I think Hue knows that.
I like that they brought in Haley having better players and a staff made up of top notch coaches can only help, and I think Hue will keep the locker room and team focused on winning.
Better days are ahead I feel real comfortable saying that and as low as expectation were the last couple of years and as shocked as many people were with the lack of results I think they will be equally shocked at the turn around this year.
Buckle up this is going to be a fun season for a change. At this point I believe thats all that matters.
Hue at least picked his own Defensive Coordinator and style that he wanted to bring here. Not a 3-4 D but a 4-3.
Hue at least had a say in the OC that would be asked to come here. Maybe a big hand of Dorsey in it but still approved by Hue as the HC I'm sure. Dorsey is not looking to cause a rift between GM and HC despite what some on this board and media would like to think.
Meanwhile Tomlin...did not pick his OC nor his DC they were already there. Tomlin a deciple of Dungy's Cover 2 didn't even get to bring his own Defense to the Steelers even though that is who he is. He was the perfect HC for the Steelers, young and happy to have the job so much so he would have absolutely NO SAY in his O nor D.
There certainly can be no more excuses. Two top coordinators, a dominant D, skill players that include Gordon, Landry, Hyde, Duke, & Njoku, a playoff calibre QB, and an influx of draft talent should be enough to win a fair share of games. It's time to stop looking at this team as "the Browns" and start looking at it as a team with enough talent to beat its opponents. Hue needs to deliver.
There certainly can be no more excuses. Two top coordinators, a dominant D, skill players that include Gordon, Landry, Hyde, Duke, & Njoku, a playoff calibre QB, and an influx of draft talent should be enough to win a fair share of games. It's time to stop looking at this team as "the Browns" and start looking at it as a team with enough talent to beat its opponents. Hue needs to deliver.
I agree 1000%.
I honestly believe that will be the case though. I think that fan expectations were way to high last year although it's hard not to expect more then zero wins. hahaha
We are about to arrive, and we still face some of the things that year over year hold us back, that being a roster/starters in flux. We continue to suffer due to playing time together that turn over in roster is the only reason I don't think we make the playoffs this year...
My hope is that we struggle to start and as we gain time playing together and clean some things up by seasons end we are a dominate team....
I am actually enthusiastic for the Browns prospects this year too.
A real change is coming guys are going to need time together and the coaches are going to have to see where everyone fits best. But we have the pieces for a change now its just a matter of putting it together.
I expect early struggles with fans jumping ship early and praising the end result.
As you said if not Hue is history but I feel confident will see huge improvements from the start. Close loses will turn into close wins and close wins into blowouts as the season goes on.
Hue at least picked his own Defensive Coordinator and style that he wanted to bring here. Not a 3-4 D but a 4-3.
Hue at least had a say in the OC that would be asked to come here. Maybe a big hand of Dorsey in it but still approved by Hue as the HC I'm sure. Dorsey is not looking to cause a rift between GM and HC despite what some on this board and media would like to think.
Meanwhile Tomlin...did not pick his OC nor his DC they were already there. Tomlin a deciple of Dungy's Cover 2 didn't even get to bring his own Defense to the Steelers even though that is who he is. He was the perfect HC for the Steelers, young and happy to have the job so much so he would have absolutely NO SAY in his O nor D.
Hue at least picked his own Defensive Coordinator and style that he wanted to bring here. Not a 3-4 D but a 4-3.
Hue at least had a say in the OC that would be asked to come here. Maybe a big hand of Dorsey in it but still approved by Hue as the HC I'm sure. Dorsey is not looking to cause a rift between GM and HC despite what some on this board and media would like to think.
Meanwhile Tomlin...did not pick his OC nor his DC they were already there. Tomlin a deciple of Dungy's Cover 2 didn't even get to bring his own Defense to the Steelers even though that is who he is. He was the perfect HC for the Steelers, young and happy to have the job so much so he would have absolutely NO SAY in his O nor D.
Peen, this team is going to need a bit of time for the coaches and players to sort out who fits where and then they need time together.
So while I agree with you that this team has the makings of championship material I wouldn't be looking for immediate gratification. Not that that can't happen I just think its pretty unlikely. If that were to happen early it would mean the defense was dominate, the offense will need time I believe.
Will see but I am very optimistic this time its more then just fan enthusiasm these dawgs are going to have teeth.
I am not saying we have a good chance to make the playoffs. I am not even expecting it. I am simply saying we should be in the running later in the season, unlike the past several under various coaches where we are out of it as September turns to October.
I don't think it unrealistic to go 8-8 or 9-7. Maybe 7-9 is good enough depending on how a few games go "breaks" wise. Keep the losses to single digit.
For the record I think Hue was cast into a hopeless situation that he handled poorly.
If he and those that believe he is a good coach (hand raised) want to see this kind of talk go away he needs to win some games, I think he gets that.
Whether you agree with the criticism or not it comes with the job and I think Hue knows that.
I like that they brought in Haley having better players and a staff made up of top notch coaches can only help, and I think Hue will keep the locker room and team focused on winning.
Better days are ahead I feel real comfortable saying that and as low as expectation were the last couple of years and as shocked as many people were with the lack of results I think they will be equally shocked at the turn around this year.
Buckle up this is going to be a fun season for a change. At this point I believe thats all that matters.
Great post.
Hue was in a nearly hopeless situation. Does he need to make improvements? Heck yes he does. There was definitely too much on his plate. If delegating duties the way they should be, rather than expecting him to be some czar on a team with little talent makes him "a coach in name only" - so be it.
It's no different than calling Alex Smith a "game manager". Game manager just signed a $94 million contract. Hue's willing to accept a new role, with a more narrow scope, rather than walking away and blaming it all on "brown"... He's accepted all criticism as his own, and owns up to his mistakes, he deserves a fair shot at proving himself. I'm behind Hue 100%.
A big problem Hue has is himself. He has a new QB who took a team with arguably worse talent, at best equal talent to the Browns, to the playoffs. The expectations are raised. He has two more 1st round picks. He cannot continue to get his players to under perform year in and year out. Hue Jackson has a problem of getting out of the way and letting things develop. He cannot micromanage the offense any further.
Livingston is the resident PD cranky old man. Just about all of his columns that I've read can be summed up as a picture of him shaking his fist.
Sure, you can use the accuracy argument, but then why bother reading the PD when you can just read posts from the group that always thinks the sky is falling? I don't see all that much of a difference, except one is (allegedly) a professional.
I don't like him cause he's the Steeler's coach. But I do think he has made himself into a good HC. Except when he's sticking his leg out to trip the opposing kick off returner!
When it's mentioned that we're 1-31 in regards to Sashi, the common response is he tore the team down, we're supposed to be bad.
When 1-31 is mentioned in regards to Hue the response is Hue is terrible and needs to go.
I don't know if Hue is the one. But given Sashi gave the guy no talent, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for right now. Shanahan was winless until he got a QB. Let's see what Hue can do with what Dorsey gives him.
When 1-31 is mentioned in regards to Hue the response is Hue is terrible and needs to go.
Most of the people on here who are/have-been criticizing Hue have gone into waaaaaaaay more detail than just his awful W/L record. I'm not going to re-hash it here, but his body of work - on and off the field/game - leaves much to be desired. He needs to get better quickly.
Do you disagree with the article or do you disagree with the timing of the article? I did not know what you meant to convey with this answer.
I'd say both.
I don't like the headline of the article, because, he is the head coach. The responsibility of that falls on his shoulders.
He hired Todd Haley (Which i think is a great hire), and Haley will be calling the offensive plays. Just like he did in Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Arizona. Haley's an experienced playcaller and he's had success.
His responsibility is coaching the whole team, just because he delegated some duties, doesn't take away from his responsibility as to how the coaching of the actual team happens. I mean, this is Management 101.
If he doesn't like the way the plays are being called, he can take them back. He can even call the plays of the defense if he wants.
That's what being a head coach is. This isn't some system where Hue is a figurehead. The structure is, the assistant coaches work for him.
And how do we know that Tyrod Taylor isn't Hue's guy? I mean, there was speculation that we wanted Tyrod before the season started last year, it's just that the Bills wanted to pick up his option/pay that big salary.
There's a lot of speculation here. Mike Silver always said that Hue went and said the trust me thing about Cody, to give a vote of confidence to DePodesta and Sashi, not because he hand selected Cody as his guy (it was a mistake either way).
But more-so, the timing of the article pisses me off. Why a hack job now? Why not when the season ended? Not when free agency and the draft is happening. There's just so many better things to discuss. Hue's the coach of 2018, it is what it is. Reactions to that should have been written in January. Not March.
Hue IS a coach in name only until he starts winning and we improve week over week. Many of the too many losses are much too much of more of the same. We didn't eliminate chronic problems and he didn't "heal himself" much if at all.
Hue IS a coach in name only until he starts winning and we improve week over week. Many of the too many losses are much too much of more of the same. We didn't eliminate chronic problems and he didn't "heal himself" much if at all.
Win.
lol. He's the Head Coach until he gives up the responsibility of overseeing the coaching operation of the Cleveland Browns Football Team.
Win or lose. That's what he's paid to do. And if we fire him, without cause, he'll be the ex-Head Coach of The Cleveland Browns.
Like it or not, Hue Jackson is the Head Coach. Not in name only. He is the Head Coach. He hires his staff. He's in charge of his staff. And he takes on the responsibilities that go with that position.
So when things go bad on offense or defense, it's up for him to explain it. The buck stops with him. That's the job of the Head Coach.
There is no "In-Name Only".
I mean, he doesn't even work under John Dorsey. He works under Jimmy Haslam alone. So, if Hue Jackson, was actually the Head Coach (In Name Only), who is the true head coach?
Here's the bottom line. Most everyone said that Hue needed to hire an OC so he could strictly be a HC. That he was taking on too much trying to be the HC and the OC.
Hue did exactly what most everyone said he should do. Now that he's done that? This is the type of thing we hear. It's a situation that no matter what Hue does we're going to hear this BS.
I agree with what you say for normal coaching on clubs with wins. But right now I think they are divvying up what he was marginal at doing and some other folks are making that decision with him and evaluating for him. But is it all him always? I think he got some help (or more leash) to help game performance and draft. He is the PR engine. Hope whatever is done helps.
Here's the bottom line. Most everyone said that Hue needed to hire an OC so he could strictly be a HC. That he was taking on too much trying to be the HC and the OC.
Hue did exactly what most everyone said he should do. Now that he's done that? This is the type of thing we hear. It's a situation that no matter what Hue does we're going to hear this BS.
No doubt. But Hue earned it. I think the article was an unnecessary hack job and the timing is ridiculous. I'm not fazed by it at all tho. Time will tell.
Here's the bottom line. Most everyone said that Hue needed to hire an OC so he could strictly be a HC. That he was taking on too much trying to be the HC and the OC.
Hue did exactly what most everyone said he should do. Now that he's done that? This is the type of thing we hear. It's a situation that no matter what Hue does we're going to hear this BS.
I am pulling for the guy because he is the coach of the Browns, but to be honest, I don't like the guy at all, but if we win, I hope he makes the HOF. Nothing says I have to like him.
If we win, you won't hear me complaining. For me it is now about losses. Hue can't have a double digit loss season next year. If we win 7 games, he is safe as far as I am concerned. Build on that the next year.
Ok....so why don't I like Hue?
I think Hue is out for Hue.
I go to games with my youngest son who is 34 now. He likes to stand by the tunnel so I sometimes go down there with him. My son said Hue always comes over...and he doesn't like that. It seems Hue likes the spotlight. He said to me "Do you think Belicheck comes over for "selfies" before a game? I agreed, he doesn't.
I am thrilled we have Dorsey, so Vers dosn't need to remind me that Sashi is gone, but Hue did everything he could to get the guy fired. I don't like that. Never have, never will.
Not to mention he isn't a good head coach. He botches all kinds of calls, but believe me, I hope he is the coach of the Browns for a long time.
If the Browns win seven games, don't get blown out/embarrassed in the others... that'll be like, on a superbowl level of happiness for me. I'd be ecstatic with that season. Hue would be, IMO, secured for the next season.
so because Hue is friendly enough to come over and say hi you guys don't like him ... I mean c'mon man. Of course if he doesn't come over then he is a stuck up snob right?
Shanahan was winless until he got a QB. Let's see what Hue can do with what Dorsey gives him.
I think the point is more that we're not going to see. The Browns are running Haley's offense, and Haley will call the plays, while Gregg Williams runs the defense. The players will be picked by Dorsey.
No doubt, Hue will have influence in all regards, but it is undeniable that his influence has seen a massive decline - whether he was forced to give it up or willingly did so - and his finger prints won't be all over the success or failure of this new-look team.
With that said, it will allow Hue to focus on what he does best. Being a head coach. He's an awful co-ordinator and I don't trust him in the draft room, but the players love him and he's a well-respected motivator.
He's certainly lost favour, but less on his plate might be a blessing in disguise.
so because Hue is friendly enough to come over and say hi you guys don't like him ... I mean c'mon man. Of course if he doesn't come over then he is a stuck up snob right?
Shanahan was winless until he got a QB. Let's see what Hue can do with what Dorsey gives him.
I think the point is more that we're not going to see. The Browns are running Haley's offense, and Haley will call the plays, while Gregg Williams runs the defense. The players will be picked by Dorsey.
No doubt, Hue will have influence in all regards, but it is undeniable that his influence has seen a massive decline - whether he was forced to give it up or willingly did so - and his finger prints won't be all over the success or failure of this new-look team.
With that said, it will allow Hue to focus on what he does best. Being a head coach. He's an awful co-ordinator and I don't trust him in the draft room, but the players love him and he's a well-respected motivator.
He's certainly lost favour, but less on his plate might be a blessing in disguise.
To my thinking, you hit the nail on the head. And any comparison of this coming season's record versus 2017, is like apples-to-oranges. Too many changes...
Just win and all this crap will take care of itself. What QB are we drafting? Tyrod yes, Tyrod no. Hue says what? Hue did what? Just win, thats all I want. Everything else will be okay if we are winners. Of course some will never be happy.
so because Hue is friendly enough to come over and say hi you guys don't like him ... I mean c'mon man. Of course if he doesn't come over then he is a stuck up snob right?
Like I said. He's damned if he does and damned if he don't.
Shanahan was winless until he got a QB. Let's see what Hue can do with what Dorsey gives him.
I think the point is more that we're not going to see. The Browns are running Haley's offense, and Haley will call the plays, while Gregg Williams runs the defense. The players will be picked by Dorsey.
No doubt, Hue will have influence in all regards, but it is undeniable that his influence has seen a massive decline - whether he was forced to give it up or willingly did so - and his finger prints won't be all over the success or failure of this new-look team.
The HC is in charge of everything. Everything. The offense and the defense and the special teams. There is no decline in his influence. What gives some fans the idea that there is, is because he's no longer calling the plays on game day. In fact, this is the way most teams operate, HC, OC, DC and STC. The OC, DC and ST's coaches are assistants. It's their job to carry out the game plans approved by the HC.
If the HC wants a 3/4 defense then the HC hires a DC who has experience running a 3/4 defense. A HC who has made his mark as an OC has a strong understanding of the opponent's offense. The HC is involved with the defensive game plan that takes advantage of the opponent's offensive strengths and weaknesses. He meets with the DC, and others, to develop the defensive game plan. After they discuss the opposing team the game plan is of the HC's approval. Now that they have a finalized plan it's up to the DC to carry out the specifics that will make it work.
The HC is also involved in developing the offensive game plan. He breaks down the opponent's defensive strengths and weaknesses matching that up with his own players strength and weakness. Along with the OC, he devises a game plan that creates mis-matches accordingly. The HC and OC, together, devise an offensive game plan that meets the HC's approval. With that, it's the OC's job to manage the specifics to make that plan work.
The same goes for the ST's. The HC sets the precedence while he and the STC develop the game plan to carry it out.
The HC is the HC and everyone else is assistants. Every HC has varying degrees of experience in all phases of the team. An offensive-minded HC will have more to offer his OC. A defensive-minded HC will have more to offer his DC. Regardless, the HC plays a large part in developing every game plan. The game plans for all phases of the team, is approved by the HC.
A HC cannot and will not simply leave everything up to his coordinators with himself not knowing what's going on. There needs be no surprises on game day. If, for instance, his OC turns in a game plan that he agrees with then that's what they go with. If the HC wants changes then there will be changes. The HC is in charge of everything. His coordinators are assistants.
In a nutshell, the HC is involved in every aspect of every phase on the game plan. Once the game plan is decided and approved then the coordinators make the calls on game day. Occasionally the HC will override certain calls during the game. He has that right. He is the HC. Everybody else is assistants to do what he wants.
Hue Jackson got the HC gig based primarily on his offensive experience. He has been a proven successful OC with a great deal of experience on that side of the ball. To think that since Haley is now the OC that the HC has no say in the offense is faulty, misinformed logic. Some fans will take comfort that it is the way, that Hue has been relieved of offensive duties, but it is not that way at all.
The main advantage of having hired Haley as the OC is that now Hue has another highly experienced OC to bounce ideas off of, share opinions regarding the offensive game plan and take over the game day play calling duties. It does not remove Hue from the offense. Hue is the HC. Everybody else is assistants. They assist, they don't take over.
Just win and all this crap will take care of itself. What QB are we drafting? Tyrod yes, Tyrod no. Hue says what? Hue did what? Just win, thats all I want. Everything else will be okay if we are winners. Of course some will never be happy.
We are Browns fans. I remember a QB who threw 5 TDs against the Bengals, to win a total shootout, and the fans were screaming for him to be benched in favor of yet another bust QB, some guy named Brady. Unfortunately our Brady had the last name Quinn.
Just win and all this crap will take care of itself. What QB are we drafting? Tyrod yes, Tyrod no. Hue says what? Hue did what? Just win, thats all I want. Everything else will be okay if we are winners. Of course some will never be happy.
We are Browns fans. I remember a QB who threw 5 TDs against the Bengals, to win a total shootout, and the fans were screaming for him to be benched in favor of yet another bust QB, some guy named Brady. Unfortunately our Brady had the last name Quinn.
yea.. i remember a QB that had us 7 win 4 loss and the fans were screaming for him to be bench... think we won 4 games the next 3 years lol
Just win and all this crap will take care of itself. What QB are we drafting? Tyrod yes, Tyrod no. Hue says what? Hue did what? Just win, thats all I want. Everything else will be okay if we are winners. Of course some will never be happy.
We are Browns fans. I remember a QB who threw 5 TDs against the Bengals, to win a total shootout, and the fans were screaming for him to be benched in favor of yet another bust QB, some guy named Brady. Unfortunately our Brady had the last name Quinn.
yea.. i remember a QB that had us 7 win 4 loss and the fans were screaming for him to be bench... think we won 4 games the next 3 years lol
Hue will have as much influence on this team as most HCs with an OC and DC have on their respective teams.
If people want to call that diminished influence on the team, then fine... as long as they understand that this is how most teams are run (and how we've been screaming and crying for the team to be run after the first time Hue said he wouldn't have an OC).
Just win and all this crap will take care of itself. What QB are we drafting? Tyrod yes, Tyrod no. Hue says what? Hue did what? Just win, thats all I want. Everything else will be okay if we are winners. Of course some will never be happy.
We are Browns fans. I remember a QB who threw 5 TDs against the Bengals, to win a total shootout, and the fans were screaming for him to be benched in favor of yet another bust QB, some guy named Brady. Unfortunately our Brady had the last name Quinn.
yea.. i remember a QB that had us 7 win 4 loss and the fans were screaming for him to be bench... think we won 4 games the next 3 years lol
Did that QB go on to win the Super Bowl?
Is that really the litmus test? I mean, he led a team to the playoffs the next year...
Just win and all this crap will take care of itself. What QB are we drafting? Tyrod yes, Tyrod no. Hue says what? Hue did what? Just win, thats all I want. Everything else will be okay if we are winners. Of course some will never be happy.
We are Browns fans. I remember a QB who threw 5 TDs against the Bengals, to win a total shootout, and the fans were screaming for him to be benched in favor of yet another bust QB, some guy named Brady. Unfortunately our Brady had the last name Quinn.
yea.. i remember a QB that had us 7 win 4 loss and the fans were screaming for him to be bench... think we won 4 games the next 3 years lol
Did that QB go on to win the Super Bowl?
Is that really the litmus test? I mean, he led a team to the playoffs the next year...
And? was it one of the worst showings of a QB in a playoff game? Who i he starting for today? How many teams did he play on?
Just win and all this crap will take care of itself. What QB are we drafting? Tyrod yes, Tyrod no. Hue says what? Hue did what? Just win, thats all I want. Everything else will be okay if we are winners. Of course some will never be happy.
We are Browns fans. I remember a QB who threw 5 TDs against the Bengals, to win a total shootout, and the fans were screaming for him to be benched in favor of yet another bust QB, some guy named Brady. Unfortunately our Brady had the last name Quinn.
yea.. i remember a QB that had us 7 win 4 loss and the fans were screaming for him to be bench... think we won 4 games the next 3 years lol
Did that QB go on to win the Super Bowl?
well think he might have a ring... bottom line.. he won more in 1 year than his team did in the next 3 year.
Folks (the haters for the most part ... a few non haters have been sucked into this one .. *L*) ....
Ddub ... the haters are taking us having an OC and running way way to far with it ... WAY TO FAR ... and ddub ... the other truth here is .... WE HAVE NO CLUE WHAT ITS LIKE IN THAT BUILDING ...
I’d be stunned if the haters arent’ being delusional here .... i mean ... listen to what their trying to sell ... there basically saying that the thief told Dorsey ... Hue’s your HC but i want him to have ZERO SAY OVER ANYTHING ... hes basically the queen of England ... or Dorsey told Hue ... sure Hue can be the HC as long as hes the penguins of Madagascar and does nothng but... “smile and wave boys, smile and wave ... ....
Listen to what the haters are saying .... he cant help pick the talent, he will have zero to do with the offense and certainly not the defense ....
Thats what their trying to sell us here ... come on bro ... as your post way more elequantly states then mine is .. u get it ...
I’m guessing those guys get along well and Hue has PLENTY OF INPUT ...
And quite frankly the minions are arguing over whose O, whose terminology were going to use ..... i could CARE LESS .... i’m Interested in what Hue, Haley and Zampese come up with SCHEMATICALLY .... actually im not interested im VERY EXCITED to see that ... we gots us some OFFENSIVE BRAIN POWER and some NEW SHINY TOYS for them to play with ... YEEEHAAA ...
IMO Hue SUCKED at in game play calling for the most p0art last year ... well now that he has HELP and ALOT LESS on his plate AND we have those new shiny toys around ... im expecting him to return to his previous form as a very good - great offensive mind .... but of course ... the haters will give Haley all the credit ....
PS. Who cares how much they hate and who they give credit to if were PRODUCING cause that usually leads to WINS!!!!!!
Shanahan was winless until he got a QB. Let's see what Hue can do with what Dorsey gives him.
I think the point is more that we're not going to see. The Browns are running Haley's offense, and Haley will call the plays, while Gregg Williams runs the defense. The players will be picked by Dorsey.
No doubt, Hue will have influence in all regards, but it is undeniable that his influence has seen a massive decline - whether he was forced to give it up or willingly did so - and his finger prints won't be all over the success or failure of this new-look team.
With that said, it will allow Hue to focus on what he does best. Being a head coach. He's an awful co-ordinator and I don't trust him in the draft room, but the players love him and he's a well-respected motivator.
He's certainly lost favour, but less on his plate might be a blessing in disguise.
To my thinking, you hit the nail on the head. And any comparison of this coming season's record versus 2017, is like apples-to-oranges. Too many changes...
No, they can be compared but it will be a complex comparison.. if we continue to suck, Hue will still get almost all of the blame, even from those who now claim he is little more than a figurehead... and if we win, it will mean that we finally have the right structure, with the right people doing the jobs they are good at, and it might also mean we have added just a little bit more talent...
I'm hoping we win... and I'm sure there will be epic battles on exactly which individual move it was that caused us to win.
I lot has been said in the negative for Hue. I still believe in him as the best HC we have had. At least he is the one that we hired that had the best credentials and was the hot guy when we hired him. I think Butch Davis probably was the the best credentials prior to Hue.
One thing I would like to let all know and why I have faith in Hue. Was this team was not built to compete. Maybe he could have squeaked a win or two but what good would that have done. What I do like is that he kept this young team together and they did not lose faith nor gave up during the season.
That is not an easy feat to accomplish. I was very impressed with him. Like most in this industry, he will get better. I think we could have a Superstar in the works at HC.
The Wolf theory in his book "The Packer Way"
He states you need two Superstars to create a foundation for a Championship team. 1. at HC 2. at QB.
I think after this 2018 season we will find out on both!
so because Hue is friendly enough to come over and say hi you guys don't like him ... I mean c'mon man. Of course if he doesn't come over then he is a stuck up snob right?
Like I said. He's damned if he does and damned if he don't.
Sorry my friend, you don't know anything about what I think. I have consistently said I hope and expect we win, and think we can.
I am in no way rooting against Hue. If I was, I would be rooting against my team. I never root against the Browns.
The only thing between you and I is that I don't think Hue is a good coach.
Caught his latest interview on the radio during the drive to work. Hue openly admitted his work ethic was drastically different before dorsey. He wasn't accustomed to the 24/7 don't leave a leaf unturned culture.
Caught his latest interview on the radio during the drive to work. Hue openly admitted his work ethic was drastically different before dorsey. He wasn't accustomed to the 24/7 don't leave a leaf unturned culture.
Not something I'd want to admit publicly.
Well, he is a well known procrastinator... Just take a look at how much time he is taking to make such a simple think like taking a swim in the lake...
Also he's well known for blaming others for their his shortcomings, and having an excuse for anything bad he makes...
Very well known for saying that almost anything its not his job to be doing...
While some claim he's the HC, top Browns talent evaluator and responsible for every QB that's been drafted. Seems it goes from one extreme to the other. lmao
Hue is the biggest lame duck HC I have ever seen ... JMHO
Why?
The team had the perfect opportunity for a change when they fired Sashi, and brought in Dorsey. That's when they should have made a change, if that's what they had/have in mind.
What do they gain by having Hue stick around as a lame duck?
Hue is the biggest lame duck HC I have ever seen ... JMHO
Why?
The team had the perfect opportunity for a change when they fired Sashi, and brought in Dorsey. That's when they should have made a change, if that's what they had/have in mind.
What do they gain by having Hue stick around as a lame duck?
That makes too much sense and doesn't fit their narrative.
Hue and Dorsey seem to be fitting together rather well. Something we never had here in the past. Dorsey is the Leader and the rest have their roles. HC and on down.
I don't see anyone being confused or disgruntled about Hue Jackson waiting for proper weather to take his swim in Lake Erie.
I know you and others wish to PUNISH him actually most of you wish to run him out of town on the rail Tarred and Feathered. This was a gentleman's bet Hue has with the Fans of the Browns. Never was it stipulated he was to cut a hole into the ice and take a dip. At his age you have to watch out for Heart attacks with an extreme cold bath. Nothing wrong with his bet and coming through with it when the wether gets warm. I would suspect on a hot summer's day between training camp. Some you guys are unreasonable.
Actually Sashi did some really good things but Football Leader he was not. Dorsey is clearly HMIC (head man in Charge) which is needed. He's a good leader so far. He doesn't seem to micro manage but instead delegates wisely.
Hue is the HC and he has his parameters spelled out for him.
No lame duck...if you all don't think 1-31 is the time to fire a guy then something must be wrong in your thinking. That was the time if we had an inkling to do so. Do I think if we end up picking in the top 5 of the draft next year that Hue will be gone. MOST CERTAINLY! 99% sure. But I'm also pretty sure we will have a pretty descent record and turn around from last season to this.
Sure do looks that way. Excellent OC and DC young players one season advanced in their progress. Influential and talented veterans at key positions. Gordon full time for the FIRST TIME??? Still have the draft.
The only negative I see is the retiring of Joe Thomas. I will give an opinion on Shon Coleman after seeing him play the LT position.
Hue and Dorsey seem to be fitting together rather well. Something we never had here in the past. Dorsey is the Leader and the rest have their roles. HC and on down.
I don't see anyone being confused or disgruntled about Hue Jackson waiting for proper weather to take his swim in Lake Erie.
I know you and others wish to PUNISH him actually most of you wish to run him out of town on the rail Tarred and Feathered. This was a gentleman's bet Hue has with the Fans of the Browns. Never was it stipulated he was to cut a hole into the ice and take a dip. At his age you have to watch out for Heart attacks with an extreme cold bath. Nothing wrong with his bet and coming through with it when the wether gets warm. I would suspect on a hot summer's day between training camp. Some you guys are unreasonable.
Actually Sashi did some really good things but Football Leader he was not. Dorsey is clearly HMIC (head man in Charge) which is needed. He's a good leader so far. He doesn't seem to micro manage but instead delegates wisely.
Hue is the HC and he has his parameters spelled out for him.
No lame duck...if you all don't think 1-31 is the time to fire a guy then something must be wrong in your thinking. That was the time if we had an inkling to do so. Do I think if we end up picking in the top 5 of the draft next year that Hue will be gone. MOST CERTAINLY! 99% sure. But I'm also pretty sure we will have a pretty descent record and turn around from last season to this.
Sure do looks that way. Excellent OC and DC young players one season advanced in their progress. Influential and talented veterans at key positions. Gordon full time for the FIRST TIME??? Still have the draft.
The only negative I see is the retiring of Joe Thomas. I will give an opinion on Shon Coleman after seeing him play the LT position.
i cant see hue going anywhere for at least 2 years.. no way would we bring in our franchise QB just to change hC after one year.
Hue is the biggest lame duck HC I have ever seen ... JMHO
Why?
The team had the perfect opportunity for a change when they fired Sashi, and brought in Dorsey. That's when they should have made a change, if that's what they had/have in mind.
What do they gain by having Hue stick around as a lame duck?
That makes too much sense and doesn't fit their narrative.
I think they kept Hue until Haley implements his Offense and then whenever that may be week 4, 8, or the end of the season I believe Haley will be our next HC ... JMHO
Hue is the biggest lame duck HC I have ever seen ... JMHO
Why?
The team had the perfect opportunity for a change when they fired Sashi, and brought in Dorsey. That's when they should have made a change, if that's what they had/have in mind.
What do they gain by having Hue stick around as a lame duck?
That makes too much sense and doesn't fit their narrative.
I think they kept Hue until Haley implements his Offense and then whenever that may be week 4, 8, or the end of the season I believe Haley will be our next HC ... JMHO
so you think that haley will be HC and OC in 2 years? didnt we just go through this?
Hue is the biggest lame duck HC I have ever seen ... JMHO
Why?
The team had the perfect opportunity for a change when they fired Sashi, and brought in Dorsey. That's when they should have made a change, if that's what they had/have in mind.
What do they gain by having Hue stick around as a lame duck?
That makes too much sense and doesn't fit their narrative.
I think they kept Hue until Haley implements his Offense and then whenever that may be week 4, 8, or the end of the season I believe Haley will be our next HC ... JMHO
If thats the plan ... i will have less respect for Dorsey and Haley than I do for Hue ... i have zero problems with Hue being our HC .. but i’m with Peen in that i dont think hes a good guy .. i think hes out for Hue and Hue alone .. he threw everyone under the bus from the bye week on ... the FO, the Players ... he made an ass of himself IMO ....
But if Dorsey/Haley even discussed the possibility of Haley taking over for Hue that’d be DISGUISTING and just a horrible way to do business ..
Haley is a better OC and was a better HC ... and you don't think these things happen, please, Dorsey didn't hire Hue ...
Huh ... thats shocking coming from u ..
Sorry sir ... If thats the plan .. whats the sense of keeping Hue at all ... its WRONG if they’ve all ready discussed the transition or if that’s EVEN POSSIBLE ...
It seems like a CHICKEN CRAP way to do business ...
I agree ... things happen ... and if it happens thats one thing ... for it to have all ready been discussed and to be the plan .. thats not things happening, thats putting a plan in motion ...
Thats UNDERHANDED IMO ...
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one ....
I agree it's underhanded and could be wrong about my thoughts but it's the reality of the world we live in and I hope I am wrong but these things go on far to often ...
Hue Jackson will end up being a huge success story in the NFL and it will unfold right here in Cleveland. From 0-16, 1-31 to playoffs and a Superbowl championship. It will end up being legendary.
I do not hold Hue responsible for the 1-31 or the 0-16. This team was less talented than the 1999 and 2000 teams. What talent they did have was extreme young. Very few vets to guide the youth on the field and no depth behind the youth. I think people will be surprised at how the team performs this year with vets on the team and some depth.
Hue will be looked at much differently after this next season.
I agree it's underhanded and could be wrong about my thoughts but it's the reality of the world we live in and I hope I am wrong but these things go on far to often ...
i dont believe dorsey had anything to do with hire haley... that was all hue...
Hue is the biggest lame duck HC I have ever seen ... JMHO
Why?
The team had the perfect opportunity for a change when they fired Sashi, and brought in Dorsey. That's when they should have made a change, if that's what they had/have in mind.
What do they gain by having Hue stick around as a lame duck?
That makes too much sense and doesn't fit their narrative.
What narrative is it to want to see the Browns win.
The schedule is out and I'm not looking forward to see the Hue Jackson coached Browns go 0-16 again, but I don't have any reason to think otherwise.
Hue Jackson will end up being a huge success story in the NFL and it will unfold right here in Cleveland. From 0-16, 1-31 to playoffs and a Superbowl championship. It will end up being legendary.
I do not hold Hue responsible for the 1-31 or the 0-16. This team was less talented than the 1999 and 2000 teams. What talent they did have was extreme young. Very few vets to guide the youth on the field and no depth behind the youth. I think people will be surprised at how the team performs this year with vets on the team and some depth.
Hue will be looked at much differently after this next season.
I think the talent last year and this year will be very similar, I think they were more talented than the 1999-2000 season.
Hue will add this seasons record to his previous seasons.
Hue Jackson will end up being a huge success story in the NFL and it will unfold right here in Cleveland. From 0-16, 1-31 to playoffs and a Superbowl championship. It will end up being legendary.
I do not hold Hue responsible for the 1-31 or the 0-16. This team was less talented than the 1999 and 2000 teams. What talent they did have was extreme young. Very few vets to guide the youth on the field and no depth behind the youth. I think people will be surprised at how the team performs this year with vets on the team and some depth.
Hue will be looked at much differently after this next season.
I think the talent last year and this year will be very similar, I think they were more talented than the 1999-2000 season.
Hue will add this seasons record to his previous seasons.
There has already been a significant increase in the teams depth vs last season. Jarvis Landry and players that the teams add from having 5 picks in the first 2 rounds will greatly improve the teams overall talent.
I agree it's underhanded and could be wrong about my thoughts but it's the reality of the world we live in and I hope I am wrong but these things go on far to often ...
i dont believe dorsey had anything to do with hire haley... that was all hue...
I agree it's underhanded and could be wrong about my thoughts but it's the reality of the world we live in and I hope I am wrong but these things go on far to often ...
i dont believe dorsey had anything to do with hire haley... that was all hue...
how about this... i dont think hue got to bring in his own coaching staff when he was hired.. it was all sashi and the company he hired...
The schedule is tough out of the gate ... that could be a problem for Hue ...
We can all speculate on a lot of this crap ... i believe that Hue will have zero leash on him and he will be allowed to be the HC of his football team ... at least thats the way it should be .. any other way is STUPID and shows a lack of class ....
We can speculate on that all day long .... we can also speculate all day long on how much rope he has ... FACT IS ... NONE OF US HAVE ANY CLUE ... u can make a good argument for a real short leash (say a 1 - 3 start) or a short leash (say a 2 - 5 start) or does he have til the bye or does he have the whole season .... FACT IS ... NONE OF US HAVE A CLUE ...
If it is a real short leash ... Pitt then NO on the road and then a thursday nighter coming off a road game in a different time zone is not a good start for Hue ...
Personally I hope he gets the whole year ... he has a different position than he did last year .. hes a true HC ... This will be a much better football team than last years and last years was a QB away from 4 - 6 wins ... he also has some GREAT ASSISTANTS at all levels ....
I hope he gets the entire year ... HES SET UP TO SUCEED THIS YEAR ... IMO he deserves a year with this new set up ...
I think we'll know a lot by the bye week....it's late this year. Hopefully he'll have wins under his belt and we won't have to discuss this anymore. But if he's 1-8 or 0-9 at that time it would be a good opportunity to transition in a new coach.
I think Hue needs a minimum of 6 wins in 2018 to survive. If it was my call, it would be 8 wins. Looking at the schedule, sitting here in April before the draft, I don't see more than 7 wins being possible, and that's only with a very optimistic crystal ball.
I think Hue needs a minimum of 6 wins in 2018 to survive. If it was my call, it would be 8 wins. Looking at the schedule, sitting here in April before the draft, I don't see more than 7 wins being possible, and that's only with a very optimistic crystal ball.
I look at it more about losses. He can't have a double digit loss season, so we need to win 7 for the Gipper
This is the NFL and there are no easy games. Predicting wins when we don't know who we are drafting or who will be on our final roster is impossible. I am always possitive so I expect the playoffs every year. I am hoping Hue can figure this head coaching thing out before it is too late for him. He has to or he will be gone. Hue talks too much for a 1-31 coach. Hue needs to rely more on actions and less on words. I do think adding Taylor, Landry and Hyde will help the offense along with hopefully better play calling. Defensively our secondary should be improved and if we can add Chubb to our defense we should be better overall. If we can avoid injuries, who knows how many we can win. I get tired of all the doom and gloom fans who have no optimism. Lets take it one game at a time starting with the Steelers and get a win first game. That would be huge and momentum could carry us to a surprising season.
If Hue is a contributor on the sidelines, There is a good possibility we could win at least 10 games. Let Todd and Greg run the show. If Hue is the decision maker, look to win maybe 4 games and hopefully he is gone. Go Browns!
Well first of all hue has already been thrown under the bus. If we really wanted to win this year we would have drafted Darnold then traded for Odell Beckman in this sense Dorsey is sacrificing are season for his own agenda.
Well first of all hue has already been thrown under the bus. If we really wanted to win this year we would have drafted Darnold then traded for Odell Beckman in this sense Dorsey is sacrificing are season for his own agenda.
Just because we didn't trade for Beckham you think Dorsey is sacrificing the season? Are you serious? The only agenda Dorsey has is making the Browns a winning team.
I tend to agree, but he is the head coach. You have to let him cook his own goose. You can't send him in to it a dead man walking.
Trust me, I don't like him even a ounce and never will, but we have to do it the right way.
We have to hope and pray for the best this fall. It sure would be nice to have a guy like Frank Reich making the decisions. That was a gutsy coaching job in the Superbowl. Wish Hue had some of that! We'll have to see how he and Todd communicate. It will be interesting. Go Browns!
sorry disagree I would not trade joe thomas for entire offseason 2 then you still have to draft somebody to replace shelton a good middle of the defensive tackle. right now we will be las t against the run.
interersting thought we trade are 4th for buffalos two number 1s then get obj we would have the top wr core for the next 5 yrs assuming we can sign gordon,and obj.
Posted by Darin Gantt on April 25, 2018, 12:05 PM EDT
On the day before the draft, the air is full of reports that the Browns are considering this guy or that guy, or cooling on some other guy.
But it simply doesn’t make sense that General Manager John Dorsey hasn’t arrived at a decision yet, as long as he’s been working on what is the single most important part of his team-building job.
What’s interesting is who he’s sharing that information with, which seems to be no one.
According to Robert Klemko of SI.com, Browns coach Hue Jackson is “out of the loop” on Dorsey’s decision.
Jackson has certainly given his input into the quarterback evaluations, and Dorsey would be wise to consider it. Jackson has done good work with quarterbacks in the past, and that reputation is a large part of the reason the Browns hired him. But after posting a 1-31 record in his first two years, Dorsey is also wise not to lash his future to Jackson’s.
From a practical standpoint, reducing the number of people who know the identity of the pick also reduces the likelihood of that information making its way to the general public via a member of the media. People talk, but if people don’t know what they’re talking about, it can’t hurt Dorsey’s position.
Now, whether there’s an advantage in keeping that knowledge secret is another question. The Browns can take whoever they want without another team preventing them from it, the reward for their ineptitude on the field. But it’s also the biggest call Dorsey will make, and it appears he’s content keeping it to himself for the moment.
Hue has a history of opening his mouth too much. I would only tell him what I think he needs to know.
It's really only a story because Hue was the last QB 'chooser' until Dorsey arrived...that's it.
It's an insignificant story because Hue has given his input - which is a part of his job - and Dorsey will be the final chooser of the next QB - which is part of his job.
Last year Hue Jackson (who desperately wanted Myles Garrett) WAS kept out of the loop—by then-GM Sashi Brown. He found out who Browns were taking 1 overall the morning of the draft. This year with John Dorsey has been a different story. He’s in the loop. All good. 😱
Well let's base this on what the sources are actually saying. They're saying that "Dorsey has told nobody." Not just Hue, but Hightower, DePodesta, Andrew Berry, Alonzo Highsmith and everyone else in the Browns organization.
From a practical standpoint, reducing the number of people who know the identity of the pick also reduces the likelihood of that information making its way to the general public via a member of the media.
Last year Hue Jackson (who desperately wanted Myles Garrett) WAS kept out of the loop—by then-GM Sashi Brown. He found out who Browns were taking 1 overall the morning of the draft. This year with John Dorsey has been a different story. He’s in the loop. All good. 😱
At this stage, I think I'm going to just give up on it all... this is why I stopped being active in the draft forum. There's just too much gossip and "he said, she said" and I just can't wait for tomorrow to come and go.
Last year Hue Jackson (who desperately wanted Myles Garrett) WAS kept out of the loop—by then-GM Sashi Brown. He found out who Browns were taking 1 overall the morning of the draft. This year with John Dorsey has been a different story. He’s in the loop. All good. 😱
Last year Hue Jackson (who desperately wanted Myles Garrett) WAS kept out of the loop—by then-GM Sashi Brown. He found out who Browns were taking 1 overall the morning of the draft. This year with John Dorsey has been a different story. He’s in the loop. All good. 😱
I think Sashi kept Hue in the loop and and Hue screwed him.
Dorsey isn't going to get run over by loose lipped Hue.
Let's ignore the fact that there have been reports that the Browns draft board is set, and that no less than a dozen people know who is at the top. (and hence, who the #1 pick will be)
Perhaps it just wasn't important to Sashi that the pick be kept quiet. It is to Dorsey, and there gas been little except for shadowy "friend of" type comments.
You have to get over this Hue fetish. If Dorsey had wanted Hue gone, he'd have been gone from the moment Dorsey was hired.
Well let's base this on what the sources are actually saying. They're saying that "Dorsey has told nobody." Not just Hue, but Hightower, DePodesta, Andrew Berry, Alonzo Highsmith and everyone else in the Browns organization.
You do understand that, right? lmao
Lighten up Francis...who relies on any "source" 24 hours before the draft? Not me or even you.
I believe I said that Dorsey going 'dark' at this point is a non-story.
I'm actually agreeing with you. Try to be a smidgen less senitive.
You have to get over this Hue fetish. If Dorsey had wanted Hue gone, he'd have been gone from the moment Dorsey was hired.
I guess I can't get over 1-31 and him throwing front office people and players under the bus.
I'll get over it when he brings his record as a Browns coach up near .500
Since that isn't going to happen any time soon, I guess I won't get over it any time soon.
Tell you want, to be fair, Hue isn't the only reason for our poor showing, when he gets the record to within 15 games of .500 I'll get over it. That will be a positive step.
I just can't wipe the slate clean. Call it a fault if you must. I just don't give 'do overs".
Yep. What I really dislike is that Myles Garrett just did an interview in which he was asked when he definitively knew he would be the pick. Garrett said "the coaches" tipped him off a few days in advance that he would be the pick.
At the same time, Silver is claiming that Jackson wasn't told until draft day who the pick would be?
I'm calling blueshirt. One of my big issues with Hue is the lack of accountability. It seems to me he's willing to point fingers at everyone but himself. It hasn't gone how he wanted it to go, we get it, but why must he so often put out disinformation?
I don't think Myles Garrett is a liar. I can't say the same for Jackson and Silver.
Yep. What I really dislike is that Myles Garrett just did an interview in which he was asked when he definitively knew he would be the pick. Garrett said "the coaches" tipped him off a few days in advance that he would be the pick.
At the same time, Silver is claiming that Jackson wasn't told until draft day who the pick would be?
I'm calling blueshirt. One of my big issues with Hue is the lack of accountability. It seems to me he's willing to point fingers at everyone but himself. It hasn't gone how he wanted it to go, we get it, but why must he so often put out disinformation?
I don't think Myles Garrett is a liar. I can't say the same for Jackson and Silver.
the other thing is that no matter what SPIN JOB people try to put on this, at the end of the day, Hue wanted AJ, could've got AJ, but instead Dorsey said "nah, imma get Tyrod instead".
I'm not sure where you got that. I kinda half listen to the bull that goes around in the off season.. But that I never heard Jackson say. Nor have I heard it reported... So either I'm out of the loop or there was nothing said..
That applies to every single person working for an NFL team. NFL = Not For Long, and quite often even the best get fired, or forced into retirement, eventually.
That applies to every single person working for an NFL team. NFL = Not For Long, and quite often even the best get fired, or forced into retirement, eventually.
Well let's base this on what the sources are actually saying. They're saying that "Dorsey has told nobody." Not just Hue, but Hightower, DePodesta, Andrew Berry, Alonzo Highsmith and everyone else in the Browns organization.
You do understand that, right? lmao
Lighten up Francis...who relies on any "source" 24 hours before the draft? Not me or even you.
I believe I said that Dorsey going 'dark' at this point is a non-story.
I'm actually agreeing with you. Try to be a smidgen less senitive.
The only sensitive people I see on here are the people that have been, and will continue to whine for months about Hue. lmao
Sorry Nancy, your shtick is old and has been used by many.
The oldest shtick on this board is that wacky notion that a coach who is 1-31 at the helm is somehow not responsible for his record, should not be criticized and is not responsible for the reality that he's been unable to work with any/every QB he's had here...followed up by that believer's astonishment that another would find that notion ridiculous.
How could anyone reasonably be dissatisfied with such a coaching performance. If you need to name that as 'whining' in order to understand that reality...then so be it.
Criticized? You mean day in and day out like some crazed, psycho stalker after their prey? Because in case you missed it, that's what's going on here. lmao
Your group has ruined this board. I hope that the majority of posters are happy w/losing good posters and being left w/the likes of you.
Enjoy.
Oh my god? ! Does this mean you're finally leaving this board after all those time you've said this exact same thing insinuating that you're finally leaving?
Seems to correlate pretty closely to when the Mayfield to the Browns at #1 reports started to come out. Just saying
Except Dorsey refuted that by saying he only made the decision this week and that it was a unanimous decision that everyone was on board with. He also pointed out how hard Hue was working and that he was of course in the loop.
Look Hue and Dorsey seem to be in a great working relationship unless they are lying to us. Their body language is very relaxed with each other but Dorsey is clearly the Alpha which is NORMAL because MOST GMs are the big boss of the team. You guys are just not used to seeing a normal and functioning front office.
Hue's fate was sealed yesterday when Dorsey failed to get one of the 2 franchise QB's in the draft (Darnold/Rosen) then failed to get one of the 2 best position players (Barkley/Chubb).
If it works out that way, i would say it is Dorseys fate.
Hue's fate is already sealed.
Sealed with a kiss
yep.. going to be here at least two more years..
Dorsey is smart to keep Baker off the field altogether this year. Can’t judge a pick if the pick never plays. Dorsey buys himself at least a year before his frat boy proves his pick was the wrong one. JMHO
Well I like Hue a lot. He well respected throughout the NFL as a football guy.
He was the first HC in a long time (Butch) that was both noted as the best candidate out there for HC and was our first choice as our HC.
In the past Decade or so we would end up getting our 3rd, 4th or 5th choice of a HC and make ado about it.
We got our guy. We got the best ASST. that we have had in both OC n DC Good Coaches want to work with HUE.
I know 1-31 but Hue has kept the team believing in the organization and working hard for the goal. A few malcontent FAs were set free.
Hue has helped create an environment that had us being able to hire the most capable GM SINCE OUR, heck since Paul Brown if you think about it!
Hue was assessed and not fired. Hue has relinquished control of the team to Dorsey. There is no confusion on who has the POWER and final say. There is no POWER Void. Hue runs the Football on the field side and Dorsey controls all other aspects so that Hue can concentrate his effort for one thing...WINNING FOOTBALL. All wish to evaluation Hue on his work with a team that was NOT BUILT TO WIN.
But I see him keeping all fired up looking to be winners. You all see a bad QB in Kizer. I see a kid who made amazing strides in the season last year as a QB just to answer the question of: How important is it for your starting QB to be ACCURATE! How many times near the end of the season did we hear the football analyst on TV coverage say how this kid Kizer is getting everything down - NOW HE JUST HAS TO GET MORE ACCURATE! Well Hue had control of those variables improved on...but there is just so much a coach can do on Accuracy.
So he is an excellent coach to bring along a QB, especially the RIGHT QB.
He got his DC and now his OC. We finally got the GM who brought in the right amount of vets to help the young players who are maturing anyways.
In this pick of Baker. We find out that during the Pro Day at OU is where Hue came away with the thought process and said to Dorsey, "This is MY GUY"
So all this big leak to the media cause Hue is a blabber mouth is spoken from those who just simply HATE Hue. Cause how many thought Hue was a Baker guy up till maybe the last day before the draft.
I'm glad we got Hue and once we start winning this season. His presence here is only going to get stronger and stronger.
We finally got a good HC and a good GM and there is no power struggle. Bot will do their job and get it DONE!
Tab...Hue has to win 31 games with no losses to even be at .500 for wins and losses...if he keeps losing without winning he will be an absolute failure as a HC....
Not sure whats going to happen...but I'm not even close to calling him a good HC...motivate and talk all you want,,,but it's the W's and l's that everyone looks at..
here's a list of Coaches wins losses and percentage rankings.... find Hue...
This board is so freaking dumb. The guy who handled the roster [Sashi] is being praised and is not being held responsible for the record and the guy who was handed the terrible roster [Hue] is being slammed and is being held responsible for the record.
Tab...Hue has to win 31 games with no losses to even be at .500 for wins and losses...if he keeps losing without winning he will be an absolute failure as a HC....
Not sure whats going to happen...but I'm not even close to calling him a good HC...motivate and talk all you want,,,but it's the W's and l's that everyone looks at..
here's a list of Coaches wins losses and percentage rankings.... find Hue...
That might be a tad unfair. Maybe more than a tad.
I have a couple concerns about Hue, but I don't think he isn't taken seriously by Dorsey and the players, or his assistants. You don't like him and that's cool, however, you do see the crap talent he was given in the past two seasons, right?
That might be a tad unfair. Maybe more than a tad.
I have a couple concerns about Hue, but I don't think he isn't taken seriously by Dorsey and the players, or his assistants. You don't like him and that's cool, however, you do see the crap talent he was given in the past two seasons, right?
I don't know, I think I worked the numbers right.
As for the misfit comment, possibly so if taken without context, which I tried to provide. Right now, Hue isn't concerned with a long range plan. He is concerned with winning football right out of the gate. That part is good. The bad part is he knows he can't survive many losses so he is going to do what is best for him.
I feel ya dawg ... I really do ... here’s some things ya’all need to consider ...
- Hue does not have the same job he had last year .. hes in an ENTIRELY NEW POSITION when it comes to his time and what he is responsible for ... i don’t know if his duties as OC/Playcaller took up 20% or 40% of his time ... but hes no longer OC ..
HUGE RESPONSIBILITY LIFTED ...
- He has a well respected very good OC ... Haley’s a HUGE ADDITION .... now U have Hue and Haley together ... thats a lot of Offensive brain power ...
- we have also added TT, Landry, Hyde and Chubb to the O ... and hopefully Josh will be here all off season and the entire season ... thats just not 3 new starters there MAJOR MAJOR UPGRADES ... and if Josh makes it through thats 4 MAJOR UPGRADES just on O ...
On D were gonna have 3 if not 4 new starters in the secondary including a real CB in Ward ... we still need help here IMO but its going to be a night and day difference from last years ...
And lets be honest last years record and Sashi getting fired revolved around 1 thing and 1 thing only ... NO QB .... Kizer had many flaws but the one that cost us was his inability to not only finish a drive but not even get points .. the TO’s in the other teams territory literally KILLED US ...
I’m not sure what u guys expected wins wise last year ... but with the qb play coupled with Joe’s injury (we would have won that game if he didnt get hurt ... ) ... and the fact we literally didn’t have a secondary and ALL THE INJURIES ....
I’m not going to sit here and say Hue did a good job coaching the team last year ... he has his WARTS ... but dude had the deck stacked against him ... 1 - 31 is not on him ... being bad was baked into the plan ....
And one of the things that really hurt him was the losing ... he could not handle it ... the 1st year U could see the losing affecting him in his face .. u could see the life being sucked right out of him ... i mentioned it after more than one game two years ago ....
the losing led to some irrational decisions IMO at times topped off by the AJ bye week debacle .. he wanted to win so bad and hated losing so much he was willing to give up a KINGS RANSOM for a guy thats not very good just to win a few games over the last 1/2 of the season ...
I think it affected all aspects of his coaching ...
And add to that the fact he did not get along with the FO at all ... that’s ANOTHER LOG ON THE FIRE NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT .... prolly cause we didnt know til the bye week last year ...
But think of that ... its got to take its toll ... having zero trust and not getting along with the person who has your fate in their hands ...
I just thought of that ...
End of the day ... HUES IN A NEW JOB ... WE HAVE A NEW TEAM ... he now has a chance to SUCEED ... where as before ... HE DIDN’T ...
Hue proved he couldn’t be HC/OC of last years QBless team ... lets see how he does being the HC of this team ...
Excellent post... Great points made.. It really tells a true tale of the 2 years previous..
I hope this all changes Hues circumstances to win and succeed as a HC.. I just get a little frustrated with the Talent he had is why he couldn't win..
I believe there was enough talent on the team to pull out more than 1 win in 32 tries... Big factor that you mention was his double duties as HC/OC.
No way I want to see this team start off losing just to see a HC change.. I want nothing more than to start off strong and finish with a very good record..
Wouldn't it be nice to see a HC with a 1-31 record turn it into a 10-37 record and having the team into the playoffs this season...lol
Always appreciate a good read that makes me think of the situation and how I feel about it...I may not like Hue.. But it doesn't mean I want to see failure..That's been seen to long around these parts..
Good points on Hue. i'm willing to give him the year to see what can be accomplished. No doubt we have MUCH better players than a year ago, and at KEY positions.
We have added talent, experience, and future upside. Plus, we've taken a lot off of his plate
This board is so freaking dumb. The guy who handled the roster [Sashi] is being praised and is not being held responsible for the record and the guy who was handed the terrible roster [Hue] is being slammed and is being held responsible for the record.
Y'all suck!
I don't get the Sashi love either. He dropped the ball on the qb situation and let some talent go for nothing in return. He and Hue both were responsible for 1-31, and Hue should have been kicked to the curb right along with Sashi.
I hope we're not left wondering what might have been if we didn't waste all this time giving the all-time losingest coach in NFL history another chance.
So if he only goes 11-5 next season...he should be fired cause after all in 3 seasons he is 12-36 a horrible record?
And yes this is what you all are saying.
I know make fun of me for sticking up for Hue, don't get the daughter bit but you all liked it. I know it was no compliment.
1-31 we did not fire him. He had a team that was not built to win. He had a team that was broken down to the bare necessities.
Now we have actually built this team to compete. It is here I want to see how he performs as a HC. When he came here we played a 3-4 Defense, he wanted a 4-3 but sometimes you take what you can get. When one of the better 4-3 DC's became available he jumped on it.
We had no QB he ran the O and tried to make ado about it. Who cares if we felt that we should have won 3 games instead of -0- The team was not built to win. I don't want to know how many wins he can make with a team not ready to win.
I want to know that he can win with a team that is built to compete. This is the first year. To me he starts 0-0. I don't care about the record book. And by your accounting, 11-5 just doesn't cut it. He should be fired. Is that what you are saying?
So there is no defense for Hue. According to you guys he is a lame duck. Heck even 16-0 just not good enough and he should be fired cause when all is said and done he is nothing but a .354 winning percentage HC and that just is not good at all. I think you don't really have this in perspective.
You are evaluating him on his record only for a team that was not built to win but to rebuild and cut to the bone. How is that remotely fair in assessing his value as a HC?
But ok, make fun of me for looking at it logically. Logically you say? Yeah, cause we did not fire him at 1-31. Which means we wiped the slate clean. Made this team competitive and now will judge Hue on the product.
I don't know lately all I seem to have is conflict with all. Is it me cause I'm just positive? And yet I keep looking at the fact we did not fire Hue at 1-31. If you don't fire a HC with 1-31 how can you look at it any other way? Evidently my thought process was pretty similar to those making the decisions; Dorsey/Dee/Jimmy.
I can only assume they saw what I saw. And you know what Dorsey has even stated it. Hue kept the team together. I saw Kizer vastly improved, I trust him with the QB situation. Not my problem if you all couldn't see the improvement with Kizer. He still sucked as a QB cause Accuracy is the most important variable and that is a variable he just did not possess.
Instead of lauging at me and mocking me. How bout actually break down what I stated and prove me wrong.
Can you think of a reason why we would not FIRE the HC after 1-31 if it wasn't for the fact that we don't believe that defines him as a HC?
I know I'm just a dumb old guy, I wish I was heavily sedated.
Wife's company changed their Insurance company. Here I need 3 pills a day for probably 2 more months. They come on board and I go to fill my script and they tell me I am only allowed 7 pills for the month and will not fill my script for 90. So I'm sitting here literally with a hole in my Ankle bone in excruciating pain as I fight these Dimwits who don't even hold a college degree let alone a Doctors degree. Arrggghhh.
Thanks for the vent...guess I should leave and go back to the fight again! You guys aren't even close to my biggest worry. But think about it. We fired the GM? Why not the HC? Maybe I happen to be correct which does not mean I'm ok with losing. I am saying we know what he can do with a team that is not built to win...now lets see how he does with one built to compete!
later.
But yeah, our QB sucks, we should not ask our players to abide by the NFL Rules. Our HC sucks. Our pick of a shut down CB was just Stupid. But wait, I'm a Homer so my opinion just should not count.
I don't get the Sashi love either. He dropped the ball on the qb situation and let some talent go for nothing in return. He and Hue both were responsible for 1-31, and Hue should have been kicked to the curb right along with Sashi.
I hope we're not left wondering what might have been if we didn't waste all this time giving the all-time losingest coach in NFL history another chance.
A lack of Sashi-hate does not equal Sashi-praise. To my eyes, no one is praising Sashi while putting 100% of the blame on Hue. There is plenty of blame to go around. If Hue were 2-14 and then 3-13 the 'lack of talent' argument - and we had a serious lack of talent - would hold more water. 1-31 is epic and historical...no surprise that a big-talking HC will get some continued flack for such a record.
The talent is being upgraded, all the QBs from last year are gone, the Chief Tie Breaker is gone. The last guy in the blame-game is still here...it's not hard to see why he still gets hammered.
How bout actually break down what I stated and prove me wrong.
I copied this part... I left the part before this out because it was a ridiculous statement...
Quote:
And yes this is what you all are saying
Lets get something clear here..If you are replying to me directly then I will reply to what I have stated ..and the you alls can make their statement you.. like vers it seems people like to put you alls into posts assuming we all say and think the same thing because it is a different opinion of another
So lets continue this conversation as you were directing the reply directly to me...
Quote:
So if he only goes 11-5 next season...he should be fired cause after all in 3 seasons he is 12-36 a horrible record?
That wasn't even close to what I was implying... I stated that Hue would have to win 31 games without any losses to be at.500. If the losses were to continue and the wins didn't come then yes..he would be a terrible HC.
I would love to see an 11-5 season and would hope the seasons thereafter would be just as rewarding.
Quote:
I know make fun of me for sticking up for Hue, don't get the daughter bit but you all liked it
Once again you ar assuming I'm laughing at you...Why do you think that way ? and again I never made any statement on what Hues daughter said...again..the you alls can reply to you on that.
Quote:
You are evaluating him on his record only for a team that was not built to win but to rebuild and cut to the bone. How is that remotely fair in assessing his value as a HC?
There were other factors involved with assessing Hue other than the very important W/l record... It has all been discussed...
Quote:
we did not fire him at 1-31. Which means we wiped the slate clean. Made this team competitive and now will judge Hue on the product.
We don't know if this team is competitive yet..On paper it looks great..on the field it's a wide open assumption... I can't wait to see how Hue does..
Quote:
Heck even 16-0 just not good enough and he should be fired cause when all is said and done he is nothing but a .354 winning percentage HC and that just is not good at all. I think you don't really have this in perspective.
I believe your the one who doesn't have it in perspective..You keep bringing up the percentage after having a perfect season... Kind of reminds me of Jack Del Rio after his 3 seasons in Oakland...
Quote:
Who cares if we felt that we should have won 3 games instead of -0- The team was not built to win.
I would think the players would have cared...Might of gave them some confidence that they could win instaed of always losing...
Quote:
I don't want to know how many wins he can make with a team not ready to win.
Isn't it the HC's job to make a team ready to win ?
Hope all turns out well with your pain and meds...I'm not laughing or mocking you... I respect your post and enjoyed some conversation with you...get well soon Tab.
... here’s some things ya’all need to consider ...
Good post all around Bro. This board is too full of haters.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a ton of haters. Maybe a half dozen tops. I do see a lot of criticism...which has been earned. I understand the reason why he's still here...I want him to succeed...but criticizing his past performance does not equate to hate. JMO
One of the comments coming from the team, I'll assume I recall it being Dorsey, about not selecting Josh Allen, ...
One of the comments, (This April, or May) was that if you have to keep coming up with excuses for incompletions, that is not the guy.
How long are they going to put up with and keep making excuses that Hue can't find a win as a head coach, of the Browns.
People can talk about new talent and changes and I think the two years, (this year vs last) and (last year vs the year before) are similar in the changes and new faces.
The difference is, I think every 3-4 years or so, the schedule seems to cycle to where you get favorable matchups on your schedule, (for instance in the years since manning left the colts, I'd say a game vs Indy is easier on paper than a game vs New England.)
I feel the easier schedule finally cycled around to the Browns again last year, meaning the Browns should have had their most success.
No one can plan for another teams struggles, but the Browns were gifted 3 or more games last year vs the opponents 2nd Qb from that teams opener.
And if I recall correcty the 2016 year before, the Browns faced a couple of teams with injured Db's.
I can't deny Hue Jackson now has an O coordinator.
Hue Jackson is the HC of the Browns, I may not like it, but what am I gonna do.
Hope the Browns win this time, (and continue to gripe when the losses pile up), what else can I do.
Had about 4 posts in succession getting on me for siding with Hue...ergo the you all...as in if the shoe fits, if it doesn't then don't apply.
Yeah I get that sometimes two...I started to answer one or two things from your statement then continued in my train of thought answering other statements and posts. Sorry about that.
I still don't get it. I think to a MAN including myself. If he has a bad record W's n L's this coming year he would be considered a Bad HC...I think we all agree on this.
I was confused cause you were talking about judging him and talked about how hard its going to be for him to be considered a .500 coach. I don't think that would be hard. I think most will start judging him from here on in where he has a team that can compete, what will he do with it now. Now how much he has to win to get to be considered a .500 HC.
He wins 10-6, 11-5 he still will be 22-42... .344 but I would evaluate him as an above average HC regardless of the Overall W/L record.
I think Hue had the team playing Well he just didn't have the veteran experience to finish games and win. HC job ready to win...easy to say hard to do in a league that there are no powder puff teams. Or shouldn't be. There are no easy wins to schedule as in college so that they can win. We were in no way built to win. So HC job is to get the team out there to put their best foot forward to win. I think we did that several times just you cannot overcome the lack of certain players, QB being one of them.
Things should be better with meds. Just frustrating...you know like being a Brown's fan...lol
Had about 4 posts in succession getting on me for siding with Hue...ergo the you all...as in if the shoe fits, if it doesn't then don't apply.
Yeah I get that sometimes two...I started to answer one or two things from your statement then continued in my train of thought answering other statements and posts. Sorry about that.
I still don't get it. I think to a MAN including myself. If he has a bad record W's n L's this coming year he would be considered a Bad HC...I think we all agree on this.
I was confused cause you were talking about judging him and talked about how hard its going to be for him to be considered a .500 coach. I don't think that would be hard. I think most will start judging him from here on in where he has a team that can compete, what will he do with it now. Now how much he has to win to get to be considered a .500 HC.
He wins 10-6, 11-5 he still will be 22-42... .344 but I would evaluate him as an above average HC regardless of the Overall W/L record.
I think Hue had the team playing Well he just didn't have the veteran experience to finish games and win. HC job ready to win...easy to say hard to do in a league that there are no powder puff teams. Or shouldn't be. There are no easy wins to schedule as in college so that they can win. We were in no way built to win. So HC job is to get the team out there to put their best foot forward to win. I think we did that several times just you cannot overcome the lack of certain players, QB being one of them.
Things should be better with meds. Just frustrating...you know like being a Brown's fan...lol
Say we go 20-12 the next 2 years that would make Hue 21-43 but I believe most sports shows and those in the NFL would begin breaking that down when they talk about his record, like Hue Jackson has led the Browns to a 20-12 record over the last 2 years after a horrible beginning at 1-31 ... JMO
... which would really put some weight behind the "he had no talent" argument.
Or Todd Haley and Gregg Williams are doing a great job.
The appointment (anointment?) of Haley to take over the offense will be by far, the biggest single contributor to our anticipated improvement this coming season...
Say we go 20-12 the next 2 years that would make Hue 21-43 but I believe most sports shows and those in the NFL would begin breaking that down when they talk about his record, like Hue Jackson has led the Browns to a 20-12 record over the last 2 years after a horrible beginning at 1-31 ... JMO thumbsup
That would be cherry picking. I think you have to look at the entire body of work.
... which would really put some weight behind the "he had no talent" argument.
Or Todd Haley and Gregg Williams are doing a great job.
The appointment (anointment?) of Haley to take over the offense will be by far, the biggest single contributor to our anticipated improvement this coming season...
GC. What does real progress look like for this team? What's the record after the first 10 games?
Who gets the credit, or where does the buck stop?
My thinking is 4-12, 2-14, 0-16 are real possibilities.
And I don't know where to find more than 2 wins on that schedule. Tyrod's going to have to be a Real good Qb, or Bakers going to have to have a Real Good rookie season, if somebody's talking 7 or more wins.
Most of the talking heads have us winning between 4 and 9 games this year! We're better on paper, but I'm not buying in to that until the wins start coming. How many games will hue need to save his job? I'd say 6 or more.
Most of the talking heads have us winning between 4 and 9 games this year! We're better on paper, but I'm not buying in to that until the wins start coming. How many games will hue need to save his job? I'd say 6 or more.
I agree, though I lean towards the more. As I said, I don't want 10 losses.
Most of the talking heads have us winning between 4 and 9 games this year! We're better on paper, but I'm not buying in to that until the wins start coming. How many games will hue need to save his job? I'd say 6 or more.
I wonder how many games we would have won last year with decent quarterback play. I don't blame Kizer, we just weren't equipped with a good quarterback ready to play in the NFL. Tyrod Taylor alone should significantly increase our chances of winning. We weren't out of that many games last year, a consistent quarterback would probably have won quite a few. (5 or more.) IMHO
Browns' Hue Jackson jumping in Lake Erie June 1 for charity
Cleveland Browns coach Hue Jackson will make his celebrated jump into Lake Erie on June 1, according to an announcement Monday on the team's Twitter page.
Jackson has turned the event into a fundraiser for his charitable foundation that fights human trafficking.
"Fortunately I'm not going alone," Jackson said about keeping his word to jump in the lake. "Many members of the Browns organization have agreed to jump with me."
The jump goes back to January 2017, when after a 1-15 season Jackson vowed 2017 would be better or fans would "find him swimming in the lake."
The Browns went winless in 2017, and Jackson said the time has come for him to keep his word. He promised to donate $100 for every individual who jumps in the lake with him to The Hue Jackson Foundation, which he set up a year ago to fight human trafficking.
"My goal is to get $15,000," Jackson said.
That means he would be joined by 150 members of the organization.
"We are working toward making 2018 a much better year for the Cleveland Browns," Jackson said, "and I'm hoping to also cleanse ourselves of all the losing for the past two seasons by jumping in."
The jump will be a private event, open only to members of the organization. Jackson said the team will release a video of the event on its social media platforms after June 1.
I have been a critic of Hue, but was never in favor of holding to some stupid jump in the lake comment.
Anyway, he is doing it for a good cause.
Last season is over. I have washed my hands of that mess. We have added talent to the talent we had. Hue is not not trying to be a coordinator and head coach. I think that will work in his favor.
Like you, I am optimistic with what this season can bring. I wasn't going to bring up playoff potential, I am just set on 7 wins. We can and should win 7 games. No more 10 loss seasons.
I have been a critic of Hue, but was never in favor of holding to some stupid jump in the lake comment.
Anyway, he is doing it for a good cause.
Last season is over. I have washed my hands of that mess. We have added talent to the talent we had. Hue is not not trying to be a coordinator and head coach. I think that will work in his favor.
Like you, I am optimistic with what this season can bring. I wasn't going to bring up playoff potential, I am just set on 7 wins. We can and should win 7 games. No more 10 loss seasons.
I wish Hue well.
Nobody expected Hue to hold his word... First because when we believed in him we expected him to quit for the miserable seasons we gave us,and when we started to no know him better, we figured that is word has no value at all.
The only way this would be less embarrassing for him would be for Hue to jump in the lake after the last game...
I haven't followed this all that closely to apologies if it has already come up. But what exactly does Hue Jackson do?
He was never a defensive guy; Williams handles that. This happens sometimes with an offensive coach.
He's supposed to be a QB guru. I think this was based on how Andy Dalton developed, but it hasn't worked out with Cody Kessler ("Trust me on this one"), RG3, Kizer, or anyone else we brought in. We didn't go after McCarron, which gives some insight into what both Dorsey and Sashi thought of his opinion.
He's not even in control of the offense anymore. Haley is.
Hue hasn't exactly shown a knack for game management, either.
So why exactly is he still the head coach, after going 1-31? Is it just to get his buyout down to a more palatable amount, while we build the talent on the team and make the Browns HC job more desirable for when we hire our real head coach next year?
I haven't followed this all that closely to apologies if it has already come up. But what exactly does Hue Jackson do?
He was never a defensive guy; Williams handles that. This happens sometimes with an offensive coach.
He's supposed to be a QB guru. I think this was based on how Andy Dalton developed, but it hasn't worked out with Cody Kessler ("Trust me on this one"), RG3, Kizer, or anyone else we brought in. We didn't go after McCarron, which gives some insight into what both Dorsey and Sashi thought of his opinion.
He's not even in control of the offense anymore. Haley is.
Hue hasn't exactly shown a knack for game management, either.
So why exactly is he still the head coach, after going 1-31? Is it just to get his buyout down to a more palatable amount, while we build the talent on the team and make the Browns HC job more desirable for when we hire our real head coach next year?
So why exactly is he still the head coach, after going 1-31? Is it just to get his buyout down to a more palatable amount, while we build the talent on the team and make the Browns HC job more desirable for when we hire our real head coach next year?
The argument of him remaining as HC is the following:
1. Stability in coaching 2. The players like playing for him 3. Not enough talent has been built up to fully judge him as a HC. 4. Took on alot as HC + OC that perhaps handing off OC job allows him to focus more on the game planning, which I agree, was questionable many times. 5. Won the battle where Jimmy was forced to choose between keeping his experienced coach or the head of his FO. 6. Jimmy and Dee bent over backward trying to get Hue (the hottest FA head coach candidate at the time) to come to Cleveland. They were able to convince him and don't want to give up on that.
So why exactly is he still the head coach, after going 1-31? Is it just to get his buyout down to a more palatable amount, while we build the talent on the team and make the Browns HC job more desirable for when we hire our real head coach next year?
The argument of him remaining as HC is the following:
1. Stability in coaching 2. The players like playing for him 3. Not enough talent has been built up to fully judge him as a HC. 4. Took on alot as HC + OC that perhaps handing off OC job allows him to focus more on the game planning, which I agree, was questionable many times. 5. Won the battle where Jimmy was forced to choose between keeping his experienced coach or the head of his FO. 6. Jimmy and Dee bent over backward trying to get Hue (the hottest FA head coach candidate at the time) to come to Cleveland. They were able to convince him and don't want to give up on that.
But you know, I have an agenda on Hue.
It was a fair post. I guess we'll see what happens this year. I think that, with the amount of talent that was added this off-season, there should be no more excuses.
So why exactly is he still the head coach, after going 1-31? Is it just to get his buyout down to a more palatable amount, while we build the talent on the team and make the Browns HC job more desirable for when we hire our real head coach next year?
The argument of him remaining as HC is the following:
1. Stability in coaching 2. The players like playing for him 3. Not enough talent has been built up to fully judge him as a HC. 4. Took on alot as HC + OC that perhaps handing off OC job allows him to focus more on the game planning, which I agree, was questionable many times. 5. Won the battle where Jimmy was forced to choose between keeping his experienced coach or the head of his FO. 6. Jimmy and Dee bent over backward trying to get Hue (the hottest FA head coach candidate at the time) to come to Cleveland. They were able to convince him and don't want to give up on that.
But you know, I have an agenda on Hue.
And...
7. It was easier and less disruptive at that point in the season to replace the GM as opposed to the HC...
So why exactly is he still the head coach, after going 1-31? Is it just to get his buyout down to a more palatable amount, while we build the talent on the team and make the Browns HC job more desirable for when we hire our real head coach next year?
The argument of him remaining as HC is the following:
1. Stability in coaching 2. The players like playing for him 3. Not enough talent has been built up to fully judge him as a HC. 4. Took on alot as HC + OC that perhaps handing off OC job allows him to focus more on the game planning, which I agree, was questionable many times. 5. Won the battle where Jimmy was forced to choose between keeping his experienced coach or the head of his FO. 6. Jimmy and Dee bent over backward trying to get Hue (the hottest FA head coach candidate at the time) to come to Cleveland. They were able to convince him and don't want to give up on that.
But you know, I have an agenda on Hue.
And...
7. It was easier and less disruptive at that point in the season to replace the GM as opposed to the HC...
the infighting stop... now that the snake is gone.. we have a GM that understands how to get coaches the players they need to be competitive.. just facts...
the way he threw pettin farmer under the bus on his climb to power.. took him 2 years but he got it done... and the fact is now no infighting.. Gm on same page as the coaching staff.. first time in a long long time.
the way he threw pettin farmer under the bus on his climb to power
I stopped here, but thanks for the reponse.
Brown’s a smooth operator, and people inside the facility adore his demeanor and likability. In his dealings with Pettine and Farmer he rightfully scolded the pair for their defensive scheme and signing over-the-hill free agents.
guy was running behind everyone backs the whole time clawing his way to the top at the cost of us losing.
Well, you certainly drew out the Hue Hate Club. LOL
I think you have a couple of assumptions wrong.
--Hue did coach DBs at one point, so he does have experience on the defensive side of the ball.
--He has also coached Special Teams in a couple of places.
--Hue is given credit for helping QBs like C. Palmer, J. Flacco, Dalton, Patrick Ramsey, & Jason Campbell. Hue was a qb himself and even Brock Osweiler commented that no one had ever did a better job of working on his mechanics than Hue.
Hue has been an OC for 4 teams and is widely respected as a good teacher and for his offensive philosophies by the people who count......that is.........NFL people. Not some guys who are butt hurt because Sashi got fired.
I don't know if Hue Jackson is a good HC or not. I do know that he didn't have the talent in Cleveland the last two years to win. I think that guys like Joe Thomas defending him and praising him for keeping the team together means something. I think he deserves a shot w/some talent on the roster.
Well, you certainly drew out the Hue Hate Club. LOL
I think you have a couple of assumptions wrong.
--Hue did coach DBs at one point, so he does have experience on the defensive side of the ball.
--He has also coached Special Teams in a couple of places.
--Hue is given credit for helping QBs like C. Palmer, J. Flacco, Dalton, Patrick Ramsey, & Jason Campbell. Hue was a qb himself and even Brock Osweiler commented that no one had ever did a better job of working on his mechanics than Hue.
Hue has been an OC for 4 teams and is widely respected as a good teacher and for his offensive philosophies by the people who count......that is.........NFL people. Not some guys who are butt hurt because Sashi got fired.
I don't know if Hue Jackson is a good HC or not. I do know that he didn't have the talent in Cleveland the last two years to win. I think that guys like Joe Thomas defending him and praising him for keeping the team together means something. I think he deserves a shot w/some talent on the roster.
Solid post.
I think Hue's mismanaged things on this team, but I do think at this point we're headed in the right direction.
I also think this assumption that Hue doesn't really know anything about offense, etc. is ridiculous. He's been very respected in this league. You don't get all those jobs without being respected.
We see differently on Haley (whom I like, but you don't), but I think people make Hue out to be a dolt when really he's not. There might be better coaches out there, and he might not be the answer to this team.
But if he was a dolt, his players wouldn't respect him the way they do, and fellow coaches wouldn't speak so highly of him. And I don't think there's a chance in heck that John Dorsey would be willing to work with him if he was a dolt
Petey, I don't dislike Haley. I think he is a decent OC. I just think Hue is more innovative offensively and a better play caller. That's nothing against Haley.
Petey, I don't dislike Haley. I think he is a decent OC. I just think Hue is more innovative offensively and a better play caller. That's nothing against Haley.
Gotcha. That's fair. Hue ran a very good offense in Cincinnati.
I just felt like Hue seemed so overwhelmed last year with Play Calling/OC/HC Duties.
While, you might not like the switch to Haley's Offense, I do think it's a fairly safe gamble, as he's shown that he knows what he's doing and can run a quality NFL Offense.
It could have been much worse. I mean, the Panthers went out and got Norv Turner
It might work out better for the Browns, Petey. We just have to remember that the Steelers are the most talented offensive team in the NFL. They are also very experienced. The Browns had the worst combination of offensive talent/experience.
I know a lot of people criticized Hue for his play calling and game management last year, but I am not one of them. Those types of comments always come up when a team is struggling, but I was around football for a long, long time and I did not see the big issues w/play calling.
And the game management? LOL...........all these guys kinda brag about how they don't watch other games, yet they know our game management was worse than the other teams. Please. I am not asking you to believe me, but I want to put this out there..........our game management was not bad at all considering who we had at QB and how young and inexperienced that team was.
Were there mistakes? Yes, of course. But all teams make mistakes and Hue is a much better game manager than a lot of the guys out there.
I haven't been on the board for several months and just got back into it about the time the Kendricks deal came up. I see that I haven't missed much, LOL. It's not surprising that some conflicting factions have developed this time about Hue Jackson. I did read the first few pages of this thread to get a sense of the argument.
I'm squarely in the Hue is NOT INCOMPETENT faction. The funny thing is that I'm certain that some among those I agree with will differ with me on some other Browns topic in the not too distant future. That's just how these things go.
Context is everything. It's clear to me that the team was intentionally purged of talent over the past few seasons. Now some of that talent forced off of the roster was average and some was middling and some probably doesn't belong in the league. As a result the team was reduced to youth, inexperienced and an absence of depth. A lot of the young guys brought in are just now starting to come into their own. This is the context Hue Jackson has dealt with since coming here.
As for being a figurehead only, I don't buy that. As with most pursuits in life there is the seen and unseen. Meaning, there are many aspects of being a profession football head coach that I'm not aware of and I convict every poster here of being unaware of many critical factors of the job also. The people in the organization, players to coaches, to front office types would absolutely sense this sham and it would cause significant damage to the team. At least some of veterans we've signed would have caught wind of that type of dysfunction and just not have bothered with the Browns. I'm not getting that impression based on how the off season is developing to this point.
I don't sense that Hue has lost the trust or respect of the players and that's on a 1-31 football team. Now this is the NFL and there has to be a payoff and it has to come this year. Because of this the only sensible thing to do was to off load some of the responsibility that Hue was carrying. Bringing in Haley was 100% the right thing to do.
So this is not the time for engaging in any smoke and mirrors or Machiavellian intrigue.
Oakland was a mess when Davis died. There was a sucking vacuum, and no one was in charge of personnel anymore. Then Campbell was injured, and they had to make a trade for a Q, and they (Hue) had to pay too much for a QB. (Palmer)
Al Davis's son hired Reggie McKenzie that off-season.
It wasn't exactly the best situation for a rookie head coach.
Further, the Raiders had 8 non-winning seasons prior to Hue, and 3 after he was fired. It wasn't like they were a powerhouse team.
lol. Well, there's a much better explanation as to the unusual circumstances for the season that Hue got fired in Oakland.
It doesn't help the point you were trying to make earlier, so that's probably why you decided not to mention it
Someone said he went 8-8 and I reply yes he got fired too...so? Really don't care what he did in Oakland, here in Cleveland he is 1-31 kinda makes the point I made since we talking about the Browns. Did you bring up Bil B. coaching time in Cleveland and explain why he was Fired?
Someone said he went 8-8 and I reply yes he got fired too...so? Really don't care what he did in Oakland, here in Cleveland he is 1-31 kinda makes the point I made since we talking about the Browns. Did you bring up Bil B. coaching time in Cleveland and explain why he was Fired?
Nope. Honestly, Bellichick was fired when I was 10 years old. The internet wasn't around then and I'm from Connecticut.
I don't remember much from that time except I liked the WR Michael Jackson and the LB Pepper Johnson. My parents were bigger fans (but they're nothing like me now), and without NFL Sunday Ticket or the Internet, it was a bit harder back then.
So, really, I don't know too much about why Billichick was fired here, although from what I heard, choosing Testaverde over Kosar was controversial with the fanbase.
All I'm saying is, you were using Hue getting fired from the Raiders as a way to demean him earlier, and it's not quite fair because the circumstances were highly unusual. I'm not making any argument about Bill B and why he got fired in Cleveland. That's all.
EDIT: But there's certainly a point to bring up 1-31. I was very surprised he was kept (although happy). I didn't think there was a chance that a guy who just went 0-16 with the previous season being 1-15, saved by a blocked field goal by Jamie Meder in the second to last game, and not getting fired.
Someone said he went 8-8 and I reply yes he got fired too...so? Really don't care what he did in Oakland, here in Cleveland he is 1-31 kinda makes the point I made since we talking about the Browns. Did you bring up Bil B. coaching time in Cleveland and explain why he was Fired?
Nope. Honestly, Bellichick was fired when I was 10 years old. The internet wasn't around then and I'm from Connecticut.
I don't remember much from that time except I liked the WR Michael Jackson and the LB Pepper Johnson. My parents were bigger fans (but they're nothing like me now), and without NFL Sunday Ticket or the Internet, it was a bit harder back then.
So, really, I don't know too much about why Billichick was fired here, although from what I heard, choosing Testaverde over Kosar was controversial with the fanbase.
All I'm saying is, you were using Hue getting fired from the Raiders as a way to demean him earlier, and it's not quite fair because the circumstances were highly unusual. I'm not making any argument about Bill B and why he got fired in Cleveland. That's all.
EDIT: But there's certainly a point to bring up 1-31. I was very surprised he was kept (although happy). I didn't think there was a chance that a guy who just went 0-16 with the previous season being 1-15, saved by a blocked field goal by Jamie Meder in the second to last game, and not getting fired.
No all I said he was fired as someone else brought the Raiders into the conversation. I was talking about his time in Cleveland. So you're once again wrong. Hue did enough to demean himself he didn't need anyone's else help to do that.
Actually a pretty good list there Memphis...but I think you forgot a couple of things.
1. He showed excellent coaching skill at the QB position. Kizer at the end of the season was a pretty good QB except for the simple fact he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn consistently. Something you cannot always teach.
2. His game plans were pretty darn good as we were in a lot of games despite the shortcoming on talent in key areas.
I'll stop there but for me these were two important facts and mostly the fact #2. Not just players like playing for him but the fact the "TEAM" never gave up on him which after going 1-31 almost any team I would have known would have shot down their HC and the HC would have lost them. Hue never lost the "TEAM" I thought this was worthy on bringing him back. A little more important fact then the one you presented
Keep in mind I think he's on a short lease this season. If come mid season we only have 1 or 2 wins...he could be gone mid year. I don't think that will be happening. We will have 3-4 wins at the least.
Actually a pretty good list there Memphis...but I think you forgot a couple of things.
1. He showed excellent coaching skill at the QB position. Kizer at the end of the season was a pretty good QB except for the simple fact he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn consistently. Something you cannot always teach.
2. His game plans were pretty darn good as we were in a lot of games despite the shortcoming on talent in key areas.
I'll stop there but for me these were two important facts and mostly the fact #2. Not just players like playing for him but the fact the "TEAM" never gave up on him which after going 1-31 almost any team I would have known would have shot down their HC and the HC would have lost them. Hue never lost the "TEAM" I thought this was worthy on bringing him back. A little more important fact then the one you presented
Keep in mind I think he's on a short lease this season. If come mid season we only have 1 or 2 wins...he could be gone mid year. I don't think that will be happening. We will have 3-4 wins at the least.
jmho
tab I agree that his teams never gave up on him. I also think he's a players coach and players enjoy playing for him. That's huge for any football team but more important in the NFL with so many diva players.
I don't think his game plans were very good the last two seasons. We didn't adapt well to what other teams showed us. We always started very slow and never built momentum. He was also horrible in two minute offense and throwing the red flags.
We were in a lot of games last year because he let GW control the defense and the defense kept us in games.
Truly I don't give a crap what others think of Hue Jackson. I am not here to try to change anyone's opinions.
He is the head coach of the Browns right now and that is all that matters to me.
Dorsey has done his job. Agree with his moves or not he has made the changes and drafted the players he believes will improve the team.
When I look at the current roster I see a competitive team.
The teams that Hue had to coach before now were not teams that could compete.
So from my perspective this is year one for Hue. He has a clean slate in my books.
Now with that said; he is now accountable. Hue has to prove he can coach a team that on paper should compete.
This team will be a true test of what Hue can do. He has been given his grace period by Haslam. Dorsey had to go along.
That will no longer be the case. Hue did the right thing with Haley. They now have two experienced quarterbacks and the number one pick. It is extremely important that Hue, Haley and Baker hit it off. Taylor will be what he is. There will be no surprise there. But we know where the future lies.
From this point forward it all about improvement. Get better every day. Be ready when the the gate opens for the first game. Then claw, scratch, and gouge every week to win games.
When the season ends Hue needs to be leading a team that looks ready to win very week.
When the season ends Hue needs to be leading a team that looks ready to win very week.
If not then he should be fired.
Want to buy a former NFL coach's Raleigh home? The price just dropped.
By Ben Graham – Staff Writer, Triangle Business Journal Jun 25, 2018, 11:08am EDT Updated Jun 25, 2018, 1:47pm
Former NFL coach and N.C. State University graduate Bill Cowher is trying to sell his Raleigh mansion and has already dropped the asking price from $2.39 million to just under $2 million.
The 6,480-square-foot home sits on less than half an acre on Briar Patch Lane in north Raleigh and backs up to the Oaks at North Ridge Country Club golf course, according to county records.
Cowher bought the property in 2007 and built the home, paying $1.065 million. That was the same year he retired from the NFL after 15 seasons as the head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers.
The four-bedroom, six-bathroom home is outfitted with a four-car garage, a garden veranda and a dog spa, among other luxury features. The tax value of the home is $1.819 million. __________________________________________
Actually a pretty good list there Memphis...but I think you forgot a couple of things.
1. He showed excellent coaching skill at the QB position. Kizer at the end of the season was a pretty good QB except for the simple fact he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn consistently. Something you cannot always teach.
2. His game plans were pretty darn good as we were in a lot of games despite the shortcoming on talent in key areas.
I'll stop there but for me these were two important facts and mostly the fact #2. Not just players like playing for him but the fact the "TEAM" never gave up on him which after going 1-31 almost any team I would have known would have shot down their HC and the HC would have lost them. Hue never lost the "TEAM" I thought this was worthy on bringing him back. A little more important fact then the one you presented
Keep in mind I think he's on a short lease this season. If come mid season we only have 1 or 2 wins...he could be gone mid year. I don't think that will be happening. We will have 3-4 wins at the least.
jmho
LOL
1) Which good QB has he coached(Flaco???? Dalton???... actually most of his QB's improved production after HUE stopped being the QB coach or O assistant
2)His game plans were 4th grader horrid... 66% passing...even against the best pass D in the league, and against the worst run D...
And the 2/3 plays being passes were not determined by the score, because he started and ended games like this.
Letting rookie QB's audible a QB sneak, etc,not protecting the left side of a rookie QB near our goal line.Letting the idiot D coordinator all blitz near the end of the half where there was nothing to gain, except letting other teams score and put the game out of reach..
What to say about the supreme idiotic notion of a burning time D developed and approved by GW and Hue... Dumb & Dumber
The list goes on and on... that's why we ended 1-31 in 2 seasons... He's the worst HC in the NFL history... that should say something about his abilites.
And he doesn't even have the tank the season for the picks excuse, because nobody would tank a season just to pick Mayfield ...
Well hopefully after our next season there will be stats that we can site that will make him the best HC in NFL history...lol
Not worried as he was coaching a team that was not built to win. This is the first season that he will have a viable QB which in todays NFL is a big thing. I will judge him on this season, but for me he gets a pass on the last two as we were not set up to win. Evidently Dorsey and the Browns gave him the same pass.
He does have a short leash I would think. Winning is the cure all!
No doubt he has a short leash, but the past is the past. He is the coach today, so forward is the only way to look at this point.
I am very hopeful that him not being head coach, offensive coordinator, and QB coach will deliver results. Way more than anybody can do and be good at any.
I know I'm going to get ripped for this, but here goes.
Some of Hue's play calling, time management, and red flag decisions last year were so head-scratchingly bad, that I have to recognize the possibility they were intentional attempts to lose.
If an organization wants to lose, they absolutely can't ask the players to lose, especially on a very young team. They have to do it in such a way that they don't lose the clubhouse. The team has to lose without the players realizing they're trying to lose. Losing 31 of 32 games is harder to do then actually winning a few by accident. The front office can make player decisions like moving good players with experience, and bringing in big name vets with failing skillsets. The HC can make decisions, play calling, personnel, time management, etc to hamper the teams efficiency. But to do it without losing the players takes careful orchestration and masterful performance by those in the know.
Many folks have called for Hue's job, but what if he is still here because he has done exactly what they've asked of him, lose without losing the team?
I know I'm going to get ripped for this, but here goes.
Some of Hue's play calling, time management, and red flag decisions last year were so head-scratchingly bad, that I have to recognize the possibility they were intentional attempts to lose.
If an organization wants to lose, they absolutely can't ask the players to lose, especially on a very young team. They have to do it in such a way that they don't lose the clubhouse. The team has to lose without the players realizing they're trying to lose. Losing 31 of 32 games is harder to do then actually winning a few by accident. The front office can make player decisions like moving good players with experience, and bringing in big name vets with failing skillsets. The HC can make decisions, play calling, personnel, time management, etc to hamper the teams efficiency. But to do it without losing the players takes careful orchestration and masterful performance by those in the know.
Many folks have called for Hue's job, but what if he is still here because he has done exactly what they've asked of him, lose without losing the team?
I was sure we were in tanking mode (ala Basketball) until we drafted Baker Mayfield...
Tanking for Saquan, Rosen or Darnold would have made sense, for Mayfield there was no need to tank....
wait...you can be assured that there is no NFL Coach who will purposely try to lose games. 1. and foremost their job security is not that set to do so...it is the Not For Long sport.
I think when a team loses like we do and the especially when we are not set up to win, its easy to scrutinize play calling or decisions as the HC is desperately trying to win a game and sometimes might go overboard in trying to do so.
I just think that for the first time in our existence (1999-present) things just fell into place for us. Back to back overall #1 picks. Generational Pass Rusher and then in a strong QB draft class to have the overall #1 pick. Just things been falling into place. We could have won several of those games but things just didn't bounce our way. We had a talented young team on the rise then we get another good draft picks with mega cap space and for the first time an experienced GM to utilize it and actually "BUILD" a team.
I won't rip you. Just things finally falling our way after years of anything and everything that could go wrong went wrong.
I feel the trade for A.J. Macaron was a desperate attempt by Hugh to try to win. He knew he had been screwed over at QB and any other QB he could get, excepting Dalton, would not know the offense. Holding off and not sending in paperwork on time was one last attempt by Sashi to keep the losing going and gain that # 1 draft pick. It also cost Sashi his job ... JMHO
I know I'm going to get ripped for this, but here goes.
Some of Hue's play calling, time management, and red flag decisions last year were so head-scratchingly bad, that I have to recognize the possibility they were intentional attempts to lose.
If an organization wants to lose, they absolutely can't ask the players to lose, especially on a very young team. They have to do it in such a way that they don't lose the clubhouse. The team has to lose without the players realizing they're trying to lose. Losing 31 of 32 games is harder to do then actually winning a few by accident. The front office can make player decisions like moving good players with experience, and bringing in big name vets with failing skillsets. The HC can make decisions, play calling, personnel, time management, etc to hamper the teams efficiency. But to do it without losing the players takes careful orchestration and masterful performance by those in the know.
Many folks have called for Hue's job, but what if he is still here because he has done exactly what they've asked of him, lose without losing the team?
I don't believe Hue intentionally lost any games. Rather, the teams were pretty bad, and he underperformed on top of that.
Figure Hue will lose 3-4 games more than a decent coach would with the same team. Give him a 4 win quality team, and Hue will win 0-1 games. Take a legit Super Bowl contender, and he might sneak into the playoffs.
We're somewhere in the middle there. We could challenge for a playoff spot with the right coach. Based on that, I'll say the Browns win about 5 games this year.
You know I am not a big Hue fan, but it's a new season, Hue is the coach, so my attitude is to take it from there.
I want the Browns to do well, thus, I want Hue to do well.
I agree that at this point there is nothing good about complaining about Hue. This is his season. I hope we win 7 games, and think we should and can.
I do understand your points, and I am not putting you down here, but it's not my fault here that we have only won one game since Hue has been the coach.
Agreed. To me it's a new season and a fresh start. Hue has a lot of new players with, at least on paper, more talent. Plus we now have a very capable OC which means Hue can concentrate on his HC duties. Things should be much better. We can hope!
I know you have "concerns." LMAO You've only voiced them 2,456,342 times.
However, that isn't what I was talking about. It was his formula for winning/losing games. It didn't make any sense and wasn't verifiable at all. I also just came off of two other threads in which one said that Oklahoma's OL was very good in pass protection and another that complained how Peppers backpedaled on screen passes.
I feel the trade for A.J. Macaron was a desperate attempt by Hugh to try to win.
It was. It also showed he has no clue what he is doing when it comes to value. Good thing he isn't a GM.
Well, I don't think it was him that submitted, or attempted to, or whatever - the supposed second and third picks... so thank goodness he's not GM and the "GM" or however you want to label Sashi is not here anymore.
I liked the thought for trading for AJ, but not for that... oh heck NO!
I feel the trade for A.J. Macaron was a desperate attempt by Hugh to try to win.
It was. It also showed he has no clue what he is doing when it comes to value. Good thing he isn't a GM.
He was responding to criticism about a lack of winning. Face it, Hue was set up to fail. The man felt he had a better chance of winning with Macaran than with Kizer. He had worked with both, knew the skill set and mental toughness of both, and felt the criticism of people calling for his job when he was given nothing to work with. What would you do ??
It was probably the best move to win a couple games last year, which seems to be what everyone who is critical of Hue wanted. It probably was not the best move for building into this years team, but fans want it both ways. Either Hue had the talent to work with, and sucked. Or he did not have what he needed to win in the NFL and made the most out of a horrible situation. Given Dee Haslam's recent comments, it looks like ownership feels that Hue did not have the talent to win, so the effort was made to get him talent this year.
If the Browns come up 0 - 16 now, by all means .. fire him. Until it is seen what is done with a talented roster, the Haslams are giving him a chance to prove himself.
Well, I don't think it was him that submitted, or attempted to, or whatever - the supposed second and third picks...
Seriously?
Yeah, technical facts I don't think he could submit tickets and carry out a trade from an office/position standpoint. If he had that power, AJ would've been here.
Did he cry for him? Probably. Push hard for him? Probably. Said to give a 2nd and a third (ridiculous) for him? Probably. Enough that Sashi botched the trade and jeopardized it on purpose? Probably.
Who knows what happened, who did what and etc. Either way the pie is sliced is pretty dysfunctional.
What if the Browns Repeat winless, 0-16, and Still Don't fire Hue Jackson at the end of the season, but bring him back for 2019. Will people begin to think Hue Jackson is the problem or still hold that it is everything else.
Well, I don't think it was him that submitted, or attempted to, or whatever - the supposed second and third picks...
Seriously?
I’m THRILLED HUE DID IT ...
It put the final nail in Sashi’s coffin and did it in a timely fashion ... it gave us a shot at Dorsey with no other competition at the time and it gave Dorsey a 2 month head start on evaluation the players and the org. ...
Why are you asking me that question. I'm not even in on this petty argument. All I did was point out the "formula" for figuring out our win totals due to the false variables given was crazy.
He knew nothing about selecting talent and building a roster.
Not sure it could have worked out better ... Sashi did the wrecking and now someone qualified gets to do the re-building ... lets hope the qualityfed dude does a better job than the rest of the football guy GM’s we’ve had in here ... lord only knows were due ...
Ya know D we can all agree or disagree with what Dorsey has done.
In the draft my dream was Darnold and Barkley.
However, I can't in good conscious bark about the players we ended up with. Same with the free agents and the trades.
I can see the logic and believe in their process. There were a bunch of very experienced talent evaluators who said grace over what was done.
Now the pieces are in place.
All the Hue bashing? Could not care less. He is the head coach until he is not. It's Dorsey call. I am fine seeing what he can do with a real roster.
In the end it is all about results. And that day is coming pretty quick.
The one thing about going into this coming season: it is the best I have felt in a very long time. And that is in direct correlation to the current roster.
I have no idea about wins but I do feel that we are a legit team that can compete every week. So that equals a 50/50 chance.
In years past I felt we were totally out gunned every week.
"I brought Todd (Haley) here because I truly believe he could help, along with the rest of our staff, move the organization forward. This is not about personal wins for me anymore. This is about organizational and team wins." - Most insightful quote Hue Jackson gave us
"I brought Todd (Haley) here because I truly believe he could help, along with the rest of our staff, move the organization forward. This is not about personal wins for me anymore. This is about organizational and team wins." - Most insightful quote Hue Jackson gave us
Still no love for Cleveland in the immediate future.
By Andrea Hangst Jul 18, 2018, 1:44pm EDT
The national NFL media has never much been optimistic about the Cleveland Browns’ short- or long-term prospects and it appears things have not changed. A trio of ESPN experts, tasked “[t]o project which NFL franchises are in the best shape for the next three seasons,” and thus to (power) rank them accordingly, have a bleak perspective of where the Browns are headed.
The numerical grades are compiled across five categories—Roster, Quarterback, Coaching, Draft and Front Office—and are on the following scale:
Quote:
100: A+ (Elite)
90: A (Great)
80: B (Very good)
70: C (Average)
60: D (Very bad)
50: F (Disastrous)
40: F- (The worst thing imaginable
The good news is that the Browns came in with an overall score of 70.8; the bad news, though, is that it puts the team at 31 out of 32 (only the Miami Dolphins rank worse).
The roster was given a grade of 72.3 (rank: 27). The quarterback situation was graded a 77 (rank: 21). Coaching was the worst of the lot, with a 56.7 grade and a rank of 32. The Browns’ draft situation and prospects were the highest among the five categories, with a 76 score and a rank of 19. And finally, the front office came in with a ranking of 24th and a grade of 73.3.
Yates wrote of the decision that, “[T]here are still players among that group whom we need to ‘see it to believe it,’ such as quarterback Baker Mayfield and wide receiver Josh Gordon (again). Most pressingly, there’s a massive debate about whether the Browns have the right coach in place, with Hue Jackson guiding his team to just one win in two years.”
Riddick is also critical of the Browns’ coaching staff, wondering whether it “is good enough to take what is clearly an improved roster from a personnel standpoint and make it into a division contender, particularly as it pertains to the [quarterback] position.”
Sando was a bit more moderate, explaining there was no choice but to rank the Browns last in coaching given the 1-31 record over the last two years, but conceded the crew could be underrated particularly “with veteran assistants Todd Haley and Ken Zampese joining forces.”
Meanwhile, fellow ESPN NFL analyst Mike Clay pegged the Browns as a wild-card playoff sleeper for the 2018 season in May. Prognostication is a hallmark of the NFL offseason when all teams are 0-0 and anything remains possible. So, what say you? What are your three-year rankings and projections for the Browns based on ESPN’s five metrics?
All speculation and click-baiting. I'm not worried about the media's opinion, but thanks for posting that article, I didn't mean to slight your effort.
Coaching was the worst of the lot, with a 56.7 grade and a rank of 32.
I don't necessarily agree with that (taken as a whole) and do believe that with the addition of Haley, we should be better off than last season. I expect the ESPN comment should provoke (or renew) interesting debate...
that seems to be a common opinion bonefish. amazing that 11 of our 22 projected starters were acquired by a guy who knows nothing about evaluating and acquiring talent!
Not a problem...ESPN lives in the past and don't have the ability to speculate. Their heads are so much up the Steelers butts that they will be in denial as we explode past them
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Jimmy and Dee Haslam pledged their support to Hue Jackson by firing Sashi Browns after 1-15 and 0-16 seasons, but have continued to watch their coach take heat for the mess of the past two seasons.
This year, they think fans will see there was a method to their madness.
"I think we'll see the real Hue Jackson,'' Jimmy said Saturday as the owners gave their annual training camp address. "He's got good quarterbacks, he's got some skill players, he's got a veteran offensive line - now we gotta figure out left tackle, three really good backs and good defense.
"You've heard me say this a few times, gotta give Hue credit for bringing in Todd Haley which will allow Hue to be the head coach so I think this will be the first opportunity Hue's had to do what we know he can do as a head coach, as a leader. Even though Todd's calling all the shots on offense I think Hue obviously will have some impact there like he will on defense, so we're excited to see it."
'I think we'll see the real Hue Jackson' says Jimmy Haslam, Browns owner Dee refused to quantify it, but believes fans will be happy this season with the product on the field.
"I think you can realistically expect progress,'' she said. "That's what we feel like. We've already made a lot of progress and we realistically feel like we're going to have progress this year."
As for defining it, she said "that's hard to define. Right now progress is...I think we're going to see a lot of progress among our players, I really do."
Jimmy acknowledged that he's excited to see what the real Jackson can accomplish now that he's working in lockstep with John Dorsey.
"Our commitment to him has been unwavering and still is,'' he said.
Jimmy was asked if it's more like Jackson's first year this year than his third given the fresh start.
"In some ways that's a fair question,'' he said. "In some ways you could say because of the talent he's had, particularly at quarterback, particularly last year, it could view it as his first year but we don't look at that. I know everybody's saying Hue has to win this many games or he has to win that many games. We don't look at it [like that.] We're really excited about the relationship that Hue and John [Dorsey] have and not just that they have but their staffs have, how the building is working together.
"I mean we're in here at 7 this morning talking about who else we might need to add to the roster so we feel good about the chemistry, we feel good about the work ethic but at the same time we all understand we've got to win games."
Jimmy acknowledged that they have a tremendous responsibility to loyal Browns fans.
"We're not going to do anything that's going to be a one-year flash in the pan,'' he said. "But at the same time, we feel pressure to win. We feel the responsibility that we haven't won before. We feel the fans' pain, too. We feel your pain. Our fans deserve better and hopefully starting this year they're going to get it."
Chris Smith in at nose tackle and Danny Shelton out.
Ricardo Louis out for the year. Josh Gordon, NObody knows or can say what is going on. Antonio Callaway is one test away from being Josh Gordons situation in 2015.
Crowell with the Jets could be as good as any of the two new guys the Browns added, Chubb and Hyde.
2017, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Kizer, Best option 1. Corey Coleman, 1A. Duke Johnson.
2018, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Taylor, best option 1. Jarvis Landry, 1A Duke Johnson.
I'm saying it is possible they end up worse this year than last. The 2018 schedule is harder, because you face the afc west instead of the afc south.
you want positive:
Chubb and Hyde could pan out, Damarious Randall could solve some problems that the corners can't.
If Kendricks and Collins, and the other lbs get used right and stay healthy they could be a strength.
I'll be honest: the Gordon news took some wind out of my sails. It seemed like "here we go again."
Aside from that, our QB play alone HAS to garner us 2-3 wins itself, plus the additions of Landry, Chubb, Hyde, and the experience of the younger guys.
This team has the talent to be an 8-8 team.... and maybe more. However, they have to learn to play together. Guys have to learn what the guy next to them, and the guy across from them, can do. We have zero carry-over QBs from last year. We have 2 or 3 new WRs, a new TE, and no Joe Thomas. It is going to be a learning process, as the players get to know one another, and the coaches see how they have to change schemes to compensate for any deficiencies the team has.
They also have new position coaches and a new offensive coordinator. They have a new special teams coordinator. Hue is moving into a true head coach position. There are bound to be bumps.
There re also always injuries, and disappointments. I think that the team is deep enough to handle some, not so much at other spots.
We'll see what happens. I feel better about this team than I have in quite a while. I think that foundation is there, with the ability to add to it as opportunities present themselves.
The Josh Gordon news took of my hope away. I never believed him in the past and used to argue w/his supporters. This year, I actually had more faith in him. He seemed to be on the right track.
Then he drops a bomb on the organization. It never ends w/that guy.
Dorsey did a good job in FA and w/some of the trades. Our overall talent and experience is better.
Keeping Hue tells me that perhaps the Haslam's finally get it. Stop listening to dumb fans and media types that are constantly demanding the firing of coaches.
I think we have a pretty solid coaching staff this year.
What year was it that it seemed he was doing really well and poised for a big season and then he went into rehab a couple days before the first regular season game? This seems like the exact same thing. Except this time the team gets an early warning.
2017, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Kizer, Best option 1. Corey Coleman, 1A. Duke Johnson.
2018, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Taylor, best option 1. Jarvis Landry, 1A Duke Johnson.
Huh? how on earth is 2018 a negative???
Because we're bringing back the coach that went 1-15 and 0-16. I just hope after this season we're not like the carpenter who said, "damn, I cut it twice and it's still too short!".
2017, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Kizer, Best option 1. Corey Coleman, 1A. Duke Johnson.
2018, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Taylor, best option 1. Jarvis Landry, 1A Duke Johnson.
Huh? how on earth is 2018 a negative???
Because we're bringing back the coach that went 1-15 and 0-16. I just hope after this season we're not like the carpenter who said, "damn, I cut it twice and it's still too short!".
To win anything, you have to have talent. The coach does not throw, block, catch, or run. The head coach is more administrator than coach. If the GM does not get him talent, no matter how much the coach works, the wins are not there. We have heard for 2 years how Sashi was not signing talent, how the Browns were being torn down to bare bones talent wise, to build for the future. This is the first year, since 2007, we have had much talent. Why don't we see how it goes before we criticize the team.
2017, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Kizer, Best option 1. Corey Coleman, 1A. Duke Johnson.
2018, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Taylor, best option 1. Jarvis Landry, 1A Duke Johnson.
Huh? how on earth is 2018 a negative???
Because we're bringing back the coach that went 1-15 and 0-16. I just hope after this season we're not like the carpenter who said, "damn, I cut it twice and it's still too short!".
Williams is running the D and Haley runs the O...This bs about Hue still being the coach as Haslam said this is the time to see who Hue really is.
He is the HC he runs the way the team operates. He has a big say in the game plan. Which you all way underestimate what he did last year. You just see 1-31 and say he sucks meanwhile with a team not built to win he had us in so many games WITH HIS GAME PLAN! But you just see 1-31 to assess him. Where's Vers when I need him...lol
Certain "fans" keep using the record when talking about Hue, but never seem to acknowledge that the plan [which Hue did not make] was to blow-up the roster and acquire a lot of assets. Sashi and Haslam both said they were going to lose a ton of games. They get a pass and it's all Hue's fault.
I think there are some of these guys that would rather see the Browns lose so they can be "right" about Hue.
... but never seem to acknowledge that the plan [which Hue did not make] was to blow-up the roster and acquire a lot of assets.
I don't think that any HC would fully agree to accept short-term "pain" for long-term "gain". That is not conducive to continued employment. So yes, I agree that Hue had little, if any, input, into the previous regime's plan...
He may have agreed to it, but he didn't orchestrate it. I do think the magnitude of so much losing wore on him. Losing is tough, especially in such a public venue.
With all of that said, I don't know if Hue is a good coach. I just think he deserves an opportunity to coach a team that at least has some talent.
I also think some folks are overrating our talent. I believe Vegas has us at 5.5 wins and that most prognosticators have us 31st or 32nd in the power rankings.
I think some of the optimists are excited about the talent we brought in and are just being fans w/their excitement. tab is one of those guys. Others, are setting unrealistic expectations so Hue will look worse when we don't meet those lofty win totals. I won't even mention peen as being one of those posters.
He may have agreed to it, but he didn't orchestrate it. I do think the magnitude of so much losing wore on him. Losing is tough, especially in such a public venue.
With all of that said, I don't know if Hue is a good coach. I just think he deserves an opportunity to coach a team that at least has some talent.
I also think some folks are overrating our talent. I believe Vegas has us at 5.5 wins and that most prognosticators have us 31st or 32nd in the power rankings.
I think some of the optimists are excited about the talent we brought in and are just being fans w/their excitement. tab is one of those guys. Others, are setting unrealistic expectations so Hue will look worse when we don't meet those lofty win totals. I won't even mention peen as being one of those posters.
Just curious .... Witch one of your “boxes” do i fit in?
Cause i’m Very very optimistic and i don’t hate Hue as our HC and am 100% on board with giving him a shot without every single damm card in the deck being stacked against him .... and i’m certainly not known around these parts for EVER BEING OPTOMISTIC much less OVERLY OPTOMISTIC ...
U know what i wish ...
Never mind .... i never get what i wish ... *L* ....
Your obsession w/trashing Hue last year bordered on the insane. Furthermore, you have never been so optimistic in the past. And while the talent has improved, the team still has some major question marks at key positions, such as QB,LT, and CB. There are also question marks at RT, DT, and FS.
On the other hand, you make some legit points when expressing your optimism and more importantly, I really am hoping you are not that sinister.
2017, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Kizer, Best option 1. Corey Coleman, 1A. Duke Johnson.
2018, head coach Hue Jackson, Qb, Taylor, best option 1. Jarvis Landry, 1A Duke Johnson.
Huh? how on earth is 2018 a negative???
Because we're bringing back the coach that went 1-15 and 0-16. I just hope after this season we're not like the carpenter who said, "damn, I cut it twice and it's still too short!".
Williams is running the D and Haley runs the O...This bs about Hue still being the coach as Haslam said this is the time to see who Hue really is.
He is the HC he runs the way the team operates. He has a big say in the game plan. Which you all way underestimate what he did last year. You just see 1-31 and say he sucks meanwhile with a team not built to win he had us in so many games WITH HIS GAME PLAN! But you just see 1-31 to assess him. Where's Vers when I need him...lol
I just looked at the 4 comparisons/upgrades you gave and had a really positive feel with all but one of them. At least you could have put that one last, lol.
Not rehashing ... we have completely different takes on how i treated Hue last year ...
Since the season ended (at the bye week for me ... *L*) ... i’ve sounded almost exactly like U ...
Moving on ...
QB is not a question to me ... i believe U and I both know what were getting ... MOST think were getting more than we are ... a few think were getting WAY MORE than we are ... *L* ...
At the end of the day ... TT is a HUGE UPGRADE over what we had last year ...
I look at it in terms of how much we improved as opposed to what TT brings to the table ... IMO if we had TT as QB last year we definetly win 3 or 4 games ... so I look at that fact and couple it with the talent upgrades ... i am extremely optomistic for those reasons ...
I think LT is not a question mark either .. i think it SUCKS ASS .... we need to “adjust” to that ... *L* ...
CB ... see QB ... same thing ... Carrie and dude from Oakland may be average at best ... but below average is a HUGE UPGRADE over last year ... HUGE ... and that doesn’t take Ward into account ...
As far as me being sinister ... u have a bunch of mis conceptions about me and if u think i am sinister u can add that to the list ...
I think that Taylor is a huge upgrade over Kizer, but I still think he is below average. Being below average at the most important position on the field is not a good thing and should temper some of the enthusiasm. Watching that video that was posted earlier that showed a few plays w/Taylor at qb. I commented earlier on how short he is. You could tell he couldn't see over the line on that one play and then started to scramble around w/out seeing downfield. You've followed his career some and I think you can make the connection.
I think Carrie is the cb who played for the Raiders. You may be thinking of E.J. Gaines. He played w/the Bills last year and the Rams before that. Bro, Oakland's pass D sucked last year and they didn't want Carrie back. What's that tell you. LOL I do think our corners are better this year, but are they that much better? They could end up being good, but right now, it's still a question mark.
The same can be said of Randall at FS.
No one is talking about RT, but Hubbard played a lot inside at Pittsburgh. We'll see.
I don't think you are sinister. In fact, that is why I put it on the "fan" side of the equation.
One thing neither of us mentioned is losing Gordon is a huge blow. I had our WR unit ranked high. W/out Josh, that grade goes way, way down. One can say "he'll be back," but I say that is questionable. We don't know the real answer. And as long as he isn't here, we sure as hell can't count on him.
Certain "fans" keep using the record when talking about Hue, but never seem to acknowledge that the plan [which Hue did not make] was to blow-up the roster and acquire a lot of assets. Sashi and Haslam both said they were going to lose a ton of games. They get a pass and it's all Hue's fault.
I think there are some of these guys that would rather see the Browns lose so they can be "right" about Hue.
Valid point. Hue was not entirely responsible for 1-31. Sashi bears much of that burden. So it is not fair for fans to entirely blame Hue for the last two years.
However, it is very fair to blame Hue for the following:
By Doug Lesmerises, cleveland.com dlesmerises@cleveland.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Why is anyone sure we haven't already seen the real Hue Jackson?
Jimmy Haslam is expecting RHJ (Real Hue Jackson) now.
"I think we will see the real Hue Jackson," is what the Browns owner told reporters Saturday. I don't know who that coach was the last two years then, but someone should find that guy and ask him what he was doing.
Evaluating Jackson's job performance should and must go beyond his 1-31 record, and for Jimmy and Dee Haslam, it obviously does. No one is looking at the .031 Cleveland winning percentage on Jackson's resume and thinking, "Yes, keep that guy. He seems to bathe in success."
But they kept Jackson, and that's a fact, and arguing backward against it is a waste of time. So let's argue forward.
Jackson wasn't fired for his first two seasons. Fine. But no one should throw away those two years. He doesn't get a do-over.
He gets an open mind for this season, but not a blank slate. It wasn't fair to judge him only on victories, but you could judge him on personnel decisions, the staff he hired, his in-game strategy and clock management, how he worked with management and the way he presented his team to the world and oversaw the locker room.
Nobody set the building on fire during one win in two years. Jackson gets some credit for that.
As I've said many times, many coaches would have done better than 0-16 last year. The front office, by design, set up the Browns for losing, but it's Jackson who drove them to 0-16, aided by co-pilot DeShone Kizer, who got the jersey judged right off of him for last year.
Was that, a 21-year-old rookie thrown in with failing receivers and no offensive coordinator, the real DeShone Kizer, as the Haslams might ask? Didn't matter. It was the Kizer the Browns got, and he wasn't good enough. So he's gone.
So yes, that was Real Hue Jackson last year. RHJ fought with his GM, won a power struggle, insisted on calling his own plays, yanked quarterbacks in and out of the lineup, and made a difficult job seem impossible - that was all real Hue.
If he's changed now - wearing matching outfits with new GM John Dorsey, hiring Todd Haley to call his plays, going all-in with veteran QB Tyrod Taylor - that's new Hue.
Maybe it'll work. But it won't wipe away last year.
This may just be owner talk. The Haslams coming out Saturday and placing a win total on Jackson, or explaining to the world that of course a 1-31 coach is on thin ice, wouldn't have accomplished anything.
But my fear about those words is this.
Say Josh Gordon never comes back. Say injuries strike a few crucial players. Say Gregg Williams shows that blitzing constantly isn't the way to go and the defense, which Jackson has much less experience with, lets the team down, but it's Williams who takes the blame. Say the quarterback situation turns messy through something other than Jackson's habit of panicking, and the offense gets sideways again.
Say the season doesn't go as hoped, and there are a million reasons for it.
Say the owners would have some reason to say, well that wasn't RHJ either. Say we're back here again next preseason, after a three-win season, with a roster featuring young potential that hasn't reached it, and a coach who hasn't yet shown he knows how to handle it.
That's a problem. If Jackson's back next year, it must be a result of proving he should be, not a result of owners believing he still hasn't had the chance to be RHJ yet.
"We are excited about Hue Jackson," Jimmy Haslam said. "I think our commitment to him has been unwavering and still is."
That's a problem, too. Haslam has fired head coaches and GMs quickly in the past, and he's gone overboard now with Jackson support. But a coach doesn't need or deserve unwavering support. He needs to know he's being judged fairly, but he needs to be held accountable.
The franchise needs unwavering support from the Haslams. The fans need unwavering support.
That would include remembering Jackson's first two years while giving him year three.
My feeling is this... If Hue coached the Patriots, with the Patriots' roster, went 1 -31.. Fire his ass. If Hue coached the Packers, with the Packers' roster, went 1-31, Fire his ass. If Hue coached the Falcons, went 1-31, Fire him. However, Hue coached the Browns, with a GM who publicly stated, "The next 2 years will be painful, we will lose a lot." and this was after 3 and 4 win seasons, as if those seasons were not painful enough. I feel that NO ONE, not Paul Brown, not Bill Walsh, not Marty Shottenhiemer, not Blanton Collier could have done better with the roster Hue had to work with. So, keep Hue around for another year.
Because we're bringing back the coach that went 1-15 and 0-16. I just hope after this season we're not like the carpenter who said, "damn, I cut it twice and it's still too short!".
Both Haslam and Dorsey have a firm grasp of the obvious. Too bad a few of our fans don't.
I'm fine with giving him another year here ... in fact, I'd probably do the same if I owned the team. The last two seasons were probably filled with the worst talent/circumstances possible.
BUT, I also think we HAVE to look better and WIN this year. We should not be blown out, we should not have long losing streaks, and we should not be a walk-over game
The Haslams have to count Hue Jackson's first two years against him: Doug Lesmerises
This is one of the clowns I was talking about earlier when I said I am glad that Haslam is ignoring his BS.
I don't think he is wrong, it's just hard to say how much. Is it 50/50 for Sashi vs Hue? Is it 80/20? That's what the Haslams have to decide. It's apparent they thought it was more Sashi than Hue or Hue would be gone too, but Hue definitely carries some of the blame as well.
We have to win now. Not a Super Bowl, but we have to win 6+ games and show major growth.
If you need to name that as 'whining' in order to understand that reality...then so be it.
