DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Interesting take from ESPN on Haslam and the coaching search

I should amend my comment from "I sure hope so" to "I sure hope they are used".

https://sports.yahoo.com/browns-dysfunction-runs-deep-new-espn-report-5-reasons-may-180043174.html


Browns dysfunction runs deep in new ESPN report, but there are 5 reasons it may be over


Cassandra NegleyYahoo SportsJan 24, 2019, 1:00 PM

The Cleveland Browns are the NFL poster team for dysfunction and regime changes. As each new story regarding it is released, there are new little tidbits that add flavor to the Dawg Pound of fury.

The latest: details around the exact moment former Browns head coach Hue Jackson was let go. From Seth Wickersham of ESPN:

Jackson asked why he was being fired.
The team quit on you, Dorsey replied.
At the time, four of the eight Browns games had gone to overtime.
“Get the f— out of my office,” Jackson said.
The Thursday morning piece, titled “The clash of the Cleveland Browns: How Hue Jackson, Jimmy Haslam and Baker Mayfield collided,” offers much of the same to previous reports in terms of in-fighting, draft power moves and a lack of true leadership. But there may be reason to be hopeful if the closing stanza to Wickersham’s reporting is any indication.

1. Jimmy Haslam maybe, just maybe, is taking a seat

Jimmy Haslam, who owns the team with his wife Dee, is the root of all problems. Terry Pluto wrote as much in an excerpt of his new book, “The Browns Blues,” last month for The Athletic.

Wickersham brought it into a larger light, describing the 64-year-old owner as one who likes to listen and is accessible to nearly all in the building. That’s great to foster ideas, gauge thoughts and assess a team working toward one goal. It’s troublesome when you take every idea equally, turn every thought into an actionable item and inadvertently set a team into personal survival mode.

It seems as though that’s what Haslam did. The ESPN report showed he was too involved in every aspect and didn’t allow those he hired to function in their role properly. A good boss delegates, allows employees to fulfill their duties, and steps in when needed and necessary.

That aspect of dysfunction runs throughout every story, every tidbit and every idea following.

For the sign that might change look no further than the press conference announcing Freddie Kitchens as the new head coach. The Haslams did not make the announcement, as they have before. They instead sat and listened. Wickersham also notes that for the first time Haslam did not have friends in the team’s draft war room.

2. Sticking with a new ‘idea’ in Baker Mayfield

“Haslam is dazzled by the promise of new ideas,” Wickersham writes. He later adds that the owner “refuses to commit to a football ideology long enough to see it through.”

The new ideology is Baker Mayfield. He’s a front runner for rookie of the year honors, threw for 3,725 yards — sixth-most for a rookie in NFL history — and emboldened a fan base by waking up Sunday mornings “feeling dangerous.”

He did not get a say in the hiring, but his thoughts were taken into consideration. The two bonded during a 5-3 finish to close the season and sing each other’s praises.

Another glimmer: Kitchens told Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer this week he isn’t looking to change who Mayfield is off the field. That will put to ease any worries the two will clash over it in the upcoming months.

3. Kitchens: the old guy and the new one

It can help to know how to, in a way, play the system. And it’s still a complicated system in Cleveland.

Kitchens was promoted from within and that can be a good thing, even if it comes from dysfunction. Kitchens should at least have an idea of how Haslam and other top brass operate. He can work inside of or around that.

It was a collaborative hire, unlike those in the past. That’s not to say there aren’t questions around Kitchens’ readiness to be a head coach in the NFL.

4. Stabilized power structure

Even at the lowest levels of Pop Warner football there is a hierarchy to follow. The same is true of any company. And there’s a reason for it.

Multiple reports showcased over-the-top arguments and Big Brother-esque colluding when it came to draft picks. There were multiple voices and a lack of agenda.

Haslam repeatedly changed job descriptions in the front office that went beyond constant firings, such as giving the salary cap strategist more involvement in football operations, per Wickersham. The structure lines were forever moving.

And as outlined, he took control of things when he should have let the system run its course. According to the report, the executives in charge of hiring a head coach voted 4-1 in favor of hiring Sean McDermott in 2016. Haslam was the single vote for Jackson.

He flew to Cincinnati and hired him anyway.

As Charles Robinson wrote earlier this month for Yahoo Sports, hiring Kitchens provided “clarity to a muddled power structure inside Cleveland.” It’s something the organization desperately needs.

5. A suggestion: Don’t do this again

One would hope this baffling mistake isn’t made again. Though to be fair, we can’t be sure it won’t.

During the 2015 season, according to the report, marketing executives decided to show employees how fans were engaging the team on social media and set up a feed that displayed on a facility wall. (This despite a clearly upset fan base and public mocking.)

From Wickersham:

It was like broadcasting talk radio over the entire building, and one day in particular, it was worse than that. One of the marketing staffers entered a search for #dp — for Dawg Pound. The problem was, that hashtag carried a few different meanings, one of which triggered an array of porn to be broadcast onto a wall for the entire office to see for more than 20 minutes, until a tech employee killed the feed.
Twitter was admittedly a tad different four years ago, but as any Browns fans on the site today can attest there is no way fans were using that hashtag. It’s an automatic question mark, and a true example of the team’s overall dysfunction, that the marketing team even considered that.

My comment had zero to do with politics.

For years, I've mentioned that the water in Berea should be tested, and I've been only half-joking when I've said it.

Think about how many reputable professionals have come through these halls in the last 20 years. Folks with decent resumes/pedigrees.
They land at 76 Groza, and it's like they all get lobotomies.

It has to be the water.
Because there's no such things as curses. Right?


[cue: 'Twilight Zone' theme music]

Lebron broke the Cleveland curse.

Now Baker and co. will build a dynasty.

Dawg, I hope you're right.

Lord knows the fans have suffered long enough.

Really interesting article... I need to read it again... I agree that's I don't love to hear about the McCarron trade fail.... also totally agree that all that dysfunction feels like it stops with Dorsey and kitchens... if Jimmy takes a step back ad let's his staff do their thing I think we will be heading in the right direction....

I have said for years that the biggest problem with the Browns have been the owners. They have consistently backed the wrong people. With Dorsey I have some hope.

Stay out of the way Haslam.

Meh, one super bowl appearance, or better yet a win, and Haslam will be the owner that turned it all around.

Until it all goes down hill again. See: Gilbert, Dan.

j/c

Coming to this party late, and not wanting to read all the posts.

I got from the article a picture of Haslam as a guy who wants to succeed, and is trying. But the qualities that lead to success in the truck-stop business didn't work in the football business. Yes, he made mistakes, and will probably continue to do so. But he appears to be learning from them, albeit slowly. I think everything he has done has been with the best of intentions.

There have been mentions of Sashi being a bad GM. I will continue to beat the drum I've been beating for 2 years. SASHI WAS NOT THE GM. He was the Executive Vice President of Football Operations. He was emphatic about making the distinction that he was not the GM. His job was not to build a team, his job was to strip the team down to the studs. It was a job no real GM would ever take, it would be professional suicide. But it needed to be done so Sashi did the dirty work and laid the groundwork for the next GM. In that, he did a very good job, probably too good. He built the biggest cap space in the NFL, and stockpiled draft picks so that when the team was ready to hire a GM, the job was attractive, instead of a dumpster fire. People, both here and elsewhere, can't seem to accept that. To them, he filled the role, therefor he was the GM. He said, repeatedly, that he was not the GM.

I would like for Haslam to go be buddies with Aurther Blank, owner of Falcons and Atlanta United.

Because Aurther is a classy owner who knows how to hire the right people and not meddle. But also knows how to talk to the media and fans in an owner role to promote his teams.

They all love him here. He is a really good guy.

So seems Jimmy should go be his buddy. Since Jimmy now owns a MLS Team as well. He needs a mentor and stop fumbling around.

Which would be thanks to too....Jimmy haslam.

He gets credit for being a dumpster fire the last 6 years, but he also gets credit now that we seem to have turned this around.

I'm not the one saying that, Folks on here. Ask them.

It's that for years, all I've heard is that ESPN isn't reliable. Now all of a sudden they are?

Look, anyone that pays any attention knows the Browns have been dysfunctional for years.. You can't lose like we have and not be.

Agreed!

I thought the article confirmed what has been suggested in the past - shed new light on a few items - and was a good read. It's WAYYYYY easier to read all the negative history knowing we have a Franchise QB in the building and having finished the season 5-2 ....

As for Haslam - I hope he gets out of his own way. The road to hell is paved with good intentions - and one half of a good season doesn't mean he can step back and not repeat previous errors. IMO - he does not need to be and should not be involved in anything football related. No involvement in coaching, players, analytics staff or draft. Stay away and let your team carry the load and do what they do. Here's hoping.

Jimmy seems to be so type A and in charge that it's actually hurt this franchise ... too much involvement and overturn obviously

I always find that when the leader is a backstabber and untrustworthy, the people under him must do the same tactics

You guys aren't asking me, but I'll respond. I mentioned in my lengthy post that I am generally not a fan of ESPN's content. The reason is it tends to lack weight. It's opinion pieces dressed up with questionable "sources". I might be wrong, but this article does not sound or "feel" the same. Yes, it's all anonymous sources, but it jives with the overall story(s) that we've heard about these regimes over the years. It passes the eye test while providing more detail than we've ever seen before. It just "feels" right. Obviously, you are free to debate that.

My only objection is the things that were left out of the story. There are more than a few gaping holes that I was hoping to read about in there. As I said before though, if they included everything to the level of detail shown in this article, they would not be writing an article, but rather a book.

Well of course they are. Every pick from #1 to the seventh round was used to improve talent and in your world they don't count. Well alrighty then.

Actually, the 30 players I was talking about are all on the starting roster. Not ST's and such. We have only a couple of WR's left and one RB left, Duke, from all the skill players from last years roster. Zero QB's, one RB and only a couple of depth WR's. Our secondary underwent an entire rebuild. New OT's and others all across the roster.

So you spin that any way you like. The fact is, from the RB position, to the WR position, to the QB position to the secondary, Dorsey rebuilt this team. And that was in one year. Let's see how many players are left from the Sashi regime when the season starts next year. After all, Rome wasn't built in a day. And all the revisionist history in the word won't change the total transformation Dorsey has brought about in this team.

That I agree with, Dorsey did quite a bit of turnover while also showing restraint. I think we will see more turnover on the front 7 this offseason as he continues to build. I also think the bottom of the roster will get better and in turn ST will as well. Dorsey knows what he's doing. My only question mark is Kitchens and how he adjusts, I like the staff for the most part.

Mostly a rehash here, but the part about Dorsey is interesting.

Jimmy Haslam seems to have learned from his mistakes and other takeaways from the ESPN piece | cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/expo/sports/g6...ncart_big-photo

CLEVELAND, Ohio — The Browns seem to have turned the corner with John Dorsey as head coach, Baker Mayfield as quarterback and Freddie Kitchens as head coach, but their extreme dysfunction in the first six years under owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam continues to make national news.

The Browns have gone 27-84-1 since the Haslams agreed to purchase the Browns in August of 2012, and they've fired four coaches in their seven seasons.

Their tenure has been characterized by four failed regimes, a circus surrounding Johnny Manziel and a disastrous experiment to run the team on almost all analytics and no traditional.

ESPN's Seth Wickersham talked to more than two dozen sources and did a deep dive into the tumultuous rein of the Haslams, and how they got to this point.

Here are some takeaways from the piece:

1. Hue Jackson's tenure was doomed from the start

According to the piece, Haslam ignored the pleas of Sashi Brown and Paul DePodesta not to hire Jackson after the 2015 season.
He reports that after a few rounds of interviews, the Browns' brass voted 4-1 in favor of then-Panthers defensive coordinator and current Bills head coach Sean McDermott, with Haslam being the lone supporter of Jackson.
He said DePodesta emailed Haslam and argued that Jackson didn't fit the profile of the successful coaches they had discussed. Brown met with Haslam and told him hiring Jackson would be a bad call, to which the owner responded, 'I hear you.'

But he flew to Cincinnati and hired Jackson anyway.

Therefore, it was all downhill for Jackson after that shining moment when he was clapped into the Browns' facility by employees on his first day on the job. Brown and DePodesta didn't want him, and the battle was on from the moment he walked upstairs to his office.

To make matters worse, Brown, DePodesta and Jackson all reported to Haslam, who tried to referee the constant battles over personnel and other matters.

The piece illuminated just how much the two power-brokers were against Jackson's hiring, and how the regime never had a chance.

2. Haslam seems to have learned from his mistakes

Haslam, battle-weary from four failed regimes, turned the coaching search over to Browns' GM John Dorsey, and let him work through a late push for the job by Freddie Kitchens.

Vikings offensive coordinator Kevin Stefanski was the unanimous leader in the clubhouse — until Kitchens stated his case as the last of seven candidates interviewed.

Some on the analytics side still liked Stefanski at first, but Dorsey guided the search committee to a consensus on Kitchens, and presented him as the unanimous choice to ownership.

Simultaneously, Haslam gave Dorsey jurisdiction over Kitchens, who reports directly to him — a seismic shift in the team's power structure.

During Kitchens' introductory press conference at FirstEnergy Stadium, Jimmy and Dee Haslam sat in the front row instead of Haslam appearing on the dais with Dorsey and Kitchens. It was Dorsey's hire, and Haslam wanted to stay out of the spotlight himself.

Haslam finally has a qualified GM in place, and he apparently has no qualms about giving him full authority over the football side.

3. Did Dorsey flex his muscles?

Wickersham reported that when Dorsey first got the Browns' GM job in December, he told an associate that he didn't need "f---ing nerds" to help him evaluate players and that he's since warmed up to analytics. He also privately told an associate, according to the piece, that "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted" in terms of the Kitchens hire and the coach reporting to him.

Those that know Dorsey well doubt he'd use those phrases, especially considering that the new regime is all about collaboration.

4. The Browns could’ve gotten a high 2nd-rounder for Brian Hoyer

Wickersham wrote that Brian Hoyer was furious when the Browns drafted Johnny Manziel in 2014 and that then-GM Ray Farmer called him after the pick to smooth the waters. Shortly thereafter, the Texans called and offered a high second-rounder for Hoyer, but Farmer nixed the deal because he had already lost control of his first draft, taking Justin Gilbert at No. 8 for coach Mike Pettine and Manziel at No. 22 for Haslam.

He also wrote that Haslam invited friends into the war room to witness the theater.

Gilbert and Manziel, of course, were busts, and Hoyer became a free agent after the season, signing a two-year deal with the Texans.

I don't like reading that Dorsey basically strong armed Kitchens into the job. My biggest concern is my lack of belief that Kitchens is the right guy. Dorsey putting his rep on the line here and the goodwill of the fan base. I trust him and hope he's right. Or we'll be doing this again soon

Now you are changing your argument. You said repeatedly, if I'm not mistaken, that the 30 player roster turnover was a result of "no real" players. I just want to make this clear before I continue with my response. This was your take, no?

Also, "ST and such" are on the starting roster. Unless you simply mean starters, then there are only 22, of which roughly half are from the last regime and others starting are a result of added picks by the last regime (Ward & Chubb). I'm not saying Ward or Chubb would have been selected by the last regime but their picks would have included in their own roster turnover regardless. That list of 30 would absolutely include ST and backups.

I agree that Kitchens is pretty much an unknown commodity in regards to being a HC. Actually, a total unknown in that position. But I try to look at things big picture and have my own opinion about him whether that's right or wrong and here's how I arrived at that opinion.

I think it's safe to say that we saw an entirely different performance on the field from our roster the second half of the season. That takes better play and some source of inspiration injected from some source. Accountability and the players buying into what the coaching staff is selling.

John Dorsey has been surrounded by some high quality HC's for much of his career. As such, it's my opinion that he knows the qualities it takes to be a successful HC in the NFL. I believe he knows exactly what to look for and knows it when he sees it.

I've watched Dorsey overhaul a roster and totally rebuild units on this team that have transformed a bottom feeder team into one the NFL is beginning to have respect for. At some point you have to buy in on a guy who's earned it. Dorsey has earned that from me.

I have the faith, based on his experience in this league, that Dorsey knows an NFL HC when he sees one. He watched first hand who made the biggest impact in the Browns turnaround from a coaching staff perspective. That's something none of us had privy to.

So I gotta go with Dorsey's decision and trust that it was the right one. He hasn't let us down so far.

Yep, Dorsey has earned trust...until he hasn't. But if history predicts the future, I think we are going to be fine. I think our strongest unit is our FO right now, Dorsey, Wolf, Highsmith..all well respected and any of them could be leading their own team

To do your work for you, here is what you said (and I'm sure there are other similar posts)

" Dorsey knew the talent level sucked when he got here. He revamped most of the roster. And not with bums but with "real players". He knew Hue couldn't be a winning coach with last years roster and he was right. "
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1579232/2

So, again, this 30 roster turnover number you continuously use to justify the "no real players" narrative. Is this still your argument or are you going to join most sane people and say the reason for the success is drafting a franchise QB, the most important position in all of sports?

I'm going to tell you that a QB alone won't get you where you need to go. I'm saying that with our 2017 secondary and WR's, we wouldn't have won as many games.

You don't believe me? Aaron Rodgers said hi.

That's why it's obvious to me that those insisting otherwise are spouting revisionist history.

Just my opinion - but I think Dorsey HAS revamped the team and I think whatever the numbers are - the only thing - certainly the most important thing - you have to look at is the STARTERS.

Turning over the 2nd and 3rd team players isn't significant for a team with such a bad team/roster/history ... it's all down to the starters. . . . Also - you quoted the number of rookies drafted as if they were all guaranteed to make the roster - but that does not usually happen even on bad teams like we have had, not many of the 6th and 7th rounders make the roster.

Audio session with the writer, for those interested.

Can the Browns win with Jimmy Haslam? ESPN’s Seth Wickersham joins Takes By The Lake
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/01...y-the-lake.html

I could care less what this guy thinks ... GO BROWNS

I agree, bonefish. This is old and done and long gone. Piling on and snickering was a lifestyle. And we wrote about and amped up all kinds of cheap shots at the Browns like it is clever or wit. And we neglected a lot of stories that could have been positive about a team struggling to do anything right. Crappy journalism and shabby treatment should be showcased for what they are.

We have exciting stuff, positives, playing for the Browns. Life after JFF, Gordon, and the ilk like them.


Go, Browns. Shut the hacks up.

This is the opposite of shabby journalism. This article was written and researched over a period of several months. It has sources both named and unnamed. The author is highly credible.

I didn't read it..don't want to..I hear enough talk about it. Most Corporate..Chain stores..to the family business all have this going on.

I see this everyday at work from Corporate to upper management to the supervisor who loves themselves from the suck ups who want to be a somebody..



Absolutely I have a real good feel good going on right now and no ESPN article is going to bring it down.. Talk about trying to slap the face of a fan having fun and enjoying the feel of an actual turn around..

Kitchens..his staff and the players on this team looking to put together a winning season for us fans to enjoy and cheer for is all I care about..

I'm getting excited for the next few months...

I don’t think the point of the article is to remind people of failures or temper optimism.

I think the point of the article is to illustrate Haslam’s management style since buying the Browns. And, as far as I’m concerned, the article does a credible job of establishing a worrisome pattern of behavior. Haslam appears to be a free-talking, obsessive micromanager by nature. That doesn’t just explain our problems in the past, though. It also portends to problems in the future.

Now, the obvious caveat is whether Haslam has reprogrammed himself to better control his worst impulses. There’s certainly evidence that’s been the case since hiring Dorsey and Kitchens. But it’s important to consider that the second-half of the 2018 season and the first month of 2019 have been the easiest of his tenure. So, the question remains: When this regime hits a rough patch – and it will happen – will Haslam seize back control, or will he continue his more recent, laissez-faire approach to football operations?

I’m with U, bone and Mourg ... WHO CARES ... i can’t remember the last time I’ve been looking forward to FREE AGENCY in a positive way .... usually I’m wondering what DUMB BUTT moves were gonna be making this time ... ican’t wait to see how DORSEY SUPRISES ME in with god forbid bringing in MORE TALENT like VICE GRIPS, RANDALLS, and MITCHELLS and PERRIMAN’S and HUBBARD’S and ROBINSON’S and Gaines, and Carrie’s ...

I CAN’T WAIT ... just like this season .... THIS IS DIFFERENT in so many ways .... this is now DORSEYS SHIP TO RUN ... the Thief wasn’t even at the table at the presser .. hes learned his place .. he hired a COMPETANT GM and that GM earned his trust and now the thief is where he should be ... still way to involved .. but he’s TAKEN A BACK SEAT ... he’s a thief not a moron ... ....

We have an entire Org. ROWING IN THE SAME DIRECTION ... we have COLLABORATORS not SEPERATISTS ... we have a PROFFESIONAL FO not TEXTING SCHMUCKS or HARVARD OHIO ... we have a HC that GETS IT ... he hires people and gives them the freedom to do there jobs and whose only requirement seems to be to UTILIZE THE TALENT OF THOSE AROUND U and make it a team effort ...

EVERYTHNG about this has been DIFFERENT!!! ... who the heck cares about the INEPTNESS of the PAST .... i’m Gonna ENJOY TODAY as opposed to worry about why were here ... ENJOY THIS PROCESS .... or NOT ... your choice ... i’ve MADE MINE ...

The past is actually pretty easy .. the thief went from the WORST OWNER in the history of sports to the LUCKIEST OWNER in the history of sports .... his hire of Sashi was so bad he was FORCED TO FIRE HIM and sitting there for the taking somehow is KING JOHN ... TY Andy ... u rock buddy ... .... whats that saying ... ones man trash is another mans treasure ... we FINALLY FOUND OUR TREASURE and were all ready OFF THE TRASH HEAP ...

I’ve always said I’d rather be lucky than good ... well the the thief got lucky and were benefiting from it NOW ... ENJOY THE NOW DAWGS ....

Get on board .. the ENTIRE ORG. Is now rowing in one direction ... there rowing from the ISLE OF OPTIMISM to the new destination .... PARADISE ISLAND ... hop in and start rowing ... as our 2nd in charge COLLABORIST says “If your not wearing orange nd brown you don’t count “ ...

LETS GOOOOOoooooooooo ... GOOD TIMES AHEAD DAWGS .... LETS ENJOY THE RIDE ...

Great. That's a very different take to the 30 roster turnover argument you've been pushing.

j/c


Coming here sometimes is frustrating.

This is a great article and I'm waiting on that book to come out.

A lot of things that were said in the article have been out there and known for a while. Many here still refuse to acknowledge the truth. For instance Farmer's draft with Gilbert and Manziel. Someone commented about Farmer's incompetence because he didn't interview Gilbert or Johnny. I think this article makes it clear that he didn't want either of them.

Memphis pointed some players Farmer "found." Also, don't forget that he also brought us Gabriel and Crowell among others. I think Farmer has a keen eye for talent. I think he doomed himself by texting the field during a game and that's why he hasn't gotten another opportunity.

If I'm an owner in need of a rebuild, the Giants would be a good one, I'd be calling Sashi to help rebuild my team. He did a marvelous job. And he wasn't a GM. It's obvious we fired the wrong person when we fired Sashi. Sashi thanked his boss for the opportunity while Hue told him to get the heck out of his office.

And, ah, yes, the revisionists are out I see. Dorsey didn't "rebuild the roster" as many are quick to try and point out. Over half our starters on offense and defense were acquired before he came along. Dorsey continued the original plan set forth during Sashi's term. Is that any more clear than the fact many in the front office are still here.

I think Dorsey came into this job thinking he would have a lot more to do than he actually did. He said some things and then realized how good things were, and went back on some of the things he said. He had to know then Hue was the problem.

I also get the "I'm tired of talking about this" crowd. I think if you are one who acknowledges the good times you can't ignore the bad. It's part of our history and it cannot be ignored like it or not. Our history fascinates me and I enjoy discussing it. If some don't, no need to tell others to stop talking about it, there are other topics here to discuss.