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I get why a lot of fans are defending Baker, but it bothers me that the OL is taking blame for the faults of others. They play for the Browns, too!


I wasn't defending anybody. My point is from what I heard on the radio and read on social media, after watching the game, he was under duress, and many times he had to bail. I know all the shows use the one clip where he clearly can step up, and act as if he was doing that the whole game. That's is not what I saw.

The problem was Donald and the Rams defense, not because he turned into Charlie Frye. Or the oline that the Oline stunk. That's all I'm saying.

It also appeared Kush handles Donald better than Bitonio.

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We saw things much differently. That's fine.


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You know, the term duress can be misleading. Now if you mean there was pressure coming to where he was actually standing at the moment defenders came in, yes. But there were far more times than one where he had ample opportunity to step up in the pocket.

So to say there was duress is accurate. To say he had to bail every time he was under duress is patently false.


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To further illustrate my point, here is an article that contains items like Baker is leading the league in leaving clean pockets, the Browns OL is ranked 3rd overall in block win rate, and "According to Pro Football Focus, Mayfield is responsible for four sacks, six hurries and 10 pressures so far this season."

Here is the link: https://clutchpoints.com/cleveland-browns-the-offensive-line-isnt-the-problem-baker-mayfield-is/


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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
You can disagree, but it isn't just me saying that Baker left the pocket early. Hell, the morning shows were replaying the times he did so the next morning and it was a major point of discussion.

I'm not saying he sucks. I'm not saying he should be replaced. I'm saying that some other guys are taking too much heat for things that are not their fault. Baker needs to get rid of the ball quicker and stop abandoning clean pockets.

Btw---not asking you to agree w/me, but it's pretty clear in my eyes.


I've not read a single opinion on this board - or anywhere else - that claims Baker is NOT leaving the pocket early at times...he is.

What IS being discussed is why? He doesn't have the pocket that he used to with Zeitler. Hubbard has regressed and was Baker's LT for half of game One...out of three played under this new scheme. Baker does not have the confidence in the OL that he had last year...add a scheme overhaul and you get a skiddish QB.

He wasn't skiddish last year as a rookie...he didn't learn to be skiddish all by his onesy in the off-season. He slid around in the pocket last year like a vet...now he bails. He simply doesn't trust the OL..and they've given him reason to NOT trust him along with reasons TO trust him. Say what you will about them being good-enough or not being good-enough...but they ARE absolutely inconsistent...as is Baker himself.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
To further illustrate my point, here is an article that contains items like Baker is leading the league in leaving clean pockets, the Browns OL is ranked 3rd overall in block win rate, and "According to Pro Football Focus, Mayfield is responsible for four sacks, six hurries and 10 pressures so far this season."

Here is the link: https://clutchpoints.com/cleveland-browns-the-offensive-line-isnt-the-problem-baker-mayfield-is/


Leading the league after 3 games...the opener with Hubbard at LT and a backup G at RT...and a backup quality G at RG.

The 3rd game of the year with a backup G at RT, a backup quality G at RG and against the best DL in the league.

Stats can be misleading.

He wasn't one to bail last year...why is he bailing now?

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I think it's not about the OL and his lack of confidence in them. I mean it's just my opinion but what it looks like to me is his hesitation in what he is seeing on the field. He just looks a little lost.

When he looks over the field it's like he doesn't quite know what he's seeing. And when he does have room to step up in the pocket, rather than do that, he roles out instead.

Even when he rolls out, last year he made some great throws and reads when doing that. That's not what I'm seeing from him this year.

I'm more inclined to believe that teams had film on him from last year to study. They have diagnosed what he does well and what his weaknesses were. As such, they're taking advantage of that.

But I don't place all of the blame for that on Baker. When calling plays his first read on those plays are a part of that play. He doesn't just pick and choose who that first read is. If our opponents understand his strengths and weaknesses, so should our own coaching staff.

As such, they should make his early reads short to intermediate passes. Exploit those holes in the zone. Because many stats have been posted have shown him holding the ball too long. That our OL does just fine for the most part when he does get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less.

They also have shown he does poorly against zone coverage and is much better when facing man coverage. So running plays that are executed quicker and exploiting the soft spots in the zone may do wonders in his recognition and help bolster his confidence. I think that would go long way in helping work towards solving some of the problems.


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Add that he could have stepped up and ran for a chunk rather than flush right, take the sack, or throw late. Make up Baker Mayfield's mind for him; shorten his list and get the ball out of his hands. His myopic scrambling is cutting our throats and killing drives.
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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I think it's not about the OL and his lack of confidence in them. I mean it's just my opinion but what it looks like to me is his hesitation in what he is seeing on the field. He just looks a little lost.

When he looks over the field it's like he doesn't quite know what he's seeing. And when he does have room to step up in the pocket, rather than do that, he roles out instead.

Even when he rolls out, last year he made some great throws and reads when doing that. That's not what I'm seeing from him this year.

I'm more inclined to believe that teams had film on him from last year to study. They have diagnosed what he does well and what his weaknesses were. As such, they're taking advantage of that.

But I don't place all of the blame for that on Baker. When calling plays his first read on those plays are a part of that play. He doesn't just pick and choose who that first read is. If our opponents understand his strengths and weaknesses, so should our own coaching staff.

As such, they should make his early reads short to intermediate passes. Exploit those holes in the zone. Because many stats have been posted have shown him holding the ball too long. That our OL does just fine for the most part when he does get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less.

They also have shown he does poorly against zone coverage and is much better when facing man coverage. So running plays that are executed quicker and exploiting the soft spots in the zone may do wonders in his recognition and help bolster his confidence. I think that would go long way in helping work towards solving some of the problems.


Makes sense...Higgins and a reliable TE would go a long way for finding those soft spots in the zone as well.

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If you think about it, Baker is missing 3 of his main targets from last year right now, in Higgins, Njoku, and Callaway, and had little preseason time this year with Landry and OBJ.

None of our TE on the active roster currently caught any passes from Baker last year. The only WR who caught passes from Baker are Landry and Higgins. (who has been injured) Ratley did catch 3 passes last year, but only 3.

So, right now, the only receivers that Baker had from last year to this year are Landry, Ratley, (3 catches) and Higgins. (injured) That's gotta be a shock to the system .. though hopefully one that will diminish as QB and receivers get to know one another better.


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Even early on we read that were problems with the offensive install. This goes back to mini camps. It seems there are still problems. There is still a disconnect.


It looks to me like Baker is thinking too much.
Last year, there was the sanp then BAM! the pass is out. - if my memory is correct.
I rarely see that this year. It is more "Okay I think I should throw it there, oops too late. What now?"
Evidence is in that it is taking over 3 seconds for the pass to get out this year.
When he gets the ball out quickly good things happen - see the Beckham TC vs the Jets.


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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I don't know about turning things over to Monken. I am not a fan of his offense and style. I'm wondering if he is part of the problem????????


Agree
Seems we are trying to run the Monkin offense when it was the Kitchens offense that we had so much success with.
We need to go back to the plays and playcalling that we did last year.


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He is leading the league in leaving "clean pockets." That's not an opinion.

I think he left the pocket last year, but we had more plays where he just had to read half the field and hit his first read. He's being asked to do more this year and is struggling a bit.

Hopefully, he gets better and the play calling and personnel packages are adjusted so we don't put him in situations that he isn't very good at right now.


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Originally Posted By: YTownBrownsFan
If you think about it, Baker is missing 3 of his main targets from last year right now, in Higgins, Njoku, and Callaway, and had little preseason time this year with Landry and OBJ.

None of our TE on the active roster currently caught any passes from Baker last year. The only WR who caught passes from Baker are Landry and Higgins. (who has been injured) Ratley did catch 3 passes last year, but only 3.

So, right now, the only receivers that Baker had from last year to this year are Landry, Ratley, (3 catches) and Higgins. (injured) That's gotta be a shock to the system .. though hopefully one that will diminish as QB and receivers get to know one another better.


Except none of his issues have anything to do with missing receivers.

Are guys dropping balls?

Are guys in the wrong place?

Are guys not getting open?

Baker is not good right now. It's not a mirage, it's not because of other players, and it's not because his #3 WR is out.

Time to stop the excuses and hope he can get it turned around.

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I think d coordinators got his number. This is when will find out if he is as good as we thought. If he keeps struggling reading these zone defenses, we have a problem. Every team is going to play defense the same until he proves he can deal with it.

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Originally Posted By: Steubenvillian
I think d coordinators got his number. This is when will find out if he is as good as we thought. If he keeps struggling reading these zone defenses, we have a problem. Every team is going to play defense the same until he proves he can deal with it.


Bingo.

My concern is how defiant he is. His presser today was disturbing to me. He's becoming hard to like. He got nasty with reporters again, trashed Rex Ryan (it's now the top byline on ESPN and will be all over the airwaves tomorrow), he never fully owns anything as he keeps saying everyone needs to do their jobs, and just really demonstrates he has not been humbled by the first three games.

I just don't know what happened between last year and this year. This is so Browns...to have everything go to a complete 180 versus where you thought they were trending.

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I know this sounds odd, and I would really like to discuss it in the PFF because this forum will die soon......but, I almost think that the best thing for Baker is if he struggles a bit this year.

He was struggling a bit under Haley and then lit it up under Freddie last year. He received so many accolades, endorsements, attention, and praise. He took time away from football. Everything came so easy for him.

I think he is a great competitor, and that if he struggles this year, he will work a lot harder next off-season to improve in certain areas.

If I were advising Baker, I would ask him to hire a qb coach to work on some mechanics, especially his drops and his lead foot when throwing, but mostly, to get in there and break down every throw he made this year and then watch other qbs who played well against the same defenses that gave him trouble. I would encourage him to predict what the safety will do before the play begins based on the offensive set. Identify the coverage before it occurs and then again post-snap.

I think he could still "get away from football" for a bit. I think it would be dumb to work almost all day at the game. But dawg, take a couple of weeks off and then spend maybe 2-3 hours a day perfecting your craft. 2-3 hours out of 24. Not too bad. You can learn while still having time to enjoy and unwind.


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I wonder if Bakers skittishness is coming from an internal pressure that keeps telling him that he needs to remain healthy bc our season really hinges on him/his ability/his performance.....if he plays too careless early, it would put the entire season in jeopardy...


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Originally Posted By: Tyler_Derden
jc

I wonder if Bakers skittishness is coming from an internal pressure that keeps telling him that he needs to remain healthy bc our season really hinges on him/his ability/his performance.....if he plays too careless early, it would put the entire season in jeopardy...


I dont know about all that, but I'm sure he feels tremendous pressure due to all the hype.


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Good advice Vers.


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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
He is leading the league in leaving "clean pockets." That's not an opinion.

I think he left the pocket last year, but we had more plays where he just had to read half the field and hit his first read. He's being asked to do more this year and is struggling a bit.

Hopefully, he gets better and the play calling and personnel packages are adjusted so we don't put him in situations that he isn't very good at right now.


I'm a little confused here...I did not say that his leaving 'clean pockets' is an opinion. I posted that Game 1 was a train wreck with Robinson/Hubbard/Mcray pretending to play T or sitting in the locker room when Ironman would have left that pocket early. Game 2 was a little better...Game 3 had essentially a backup at RG & RT and A Donald on the other side of the ball. I'd leave the pocket early too.

Baker is bailing too early at times...but not enough to make it THE glaring issue...he's holding the ball too long at times and then you see that play from our own 12 yard line where everyone was running long routes except for the one guy who was short of the 1st down marker. In that instance, we don't know what he saw or didn't see...or when...but any/all the options weren't going to get the job done. His choice? Run or wait until someone breaks open...requiring him to hold the ball too long.

That said...there ARE instances where he held the ball too long when he had other options...he has left clean pockets and dealt with some weak pass protection...he has thrown to the "wrong" option and his footwork has been 'off' leading to some uncharacteristically inaccurate throws. He's also made numerous throws that demonstrate what we saw the last half of last year...plus throws, tight windows, anticipation, etc.

There are a lot of factors in play and until we do what you said above - now in italics - I don't think we will be ABLE to improve on the other factors in play.

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I'm not sure anyone is claiming that we should blame the major problem is him leaving the pocket too early. I actually believe you hit the target by saying there are a lot of factors at play. But I think him leaving the pocket early makes people wonder if it isn't a symptom of something deeper.

I mean why would a QB roll out when the option is certainly available to step up in the pocket? What is going on in his head that is causing this? It brings into question his processing and how he deals with the information he is seeing on the field.

While leaving the pocket early isn't a huge deal in isolation, it may be a symptom of a much larger issue here.


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Agreed. He is almost certainly struggling at reading post-snap coverages. There have been several people who were in the NFL saying that that is the case. Rex Ryan's claim of Baker being a one-read qb is an example of that. It's a concern.


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I read what baker said in response to Ryan. If that is your idea of “trashing” then you live in a fragile flower of a world. Maybe you think it is one of those goofy “micro aggressions” we read about.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG

I mean why would a QB roll out when the option is certainly available to step up in the pocket? What is going on in his head that is causing this? It brings into question his processing and how he deals with the information he is seeing on the field.

While leaving the pocket early isn't a huge deal in isolation, it may be a symptom of a much larger issue here.



Take this for what it's worth, mostly here-say so the validity is certainly questionable but:

On one of the radio talk shows yesterday, the host (don't know who) said he had a contact who had a contact within the Browns organization who told him (see the here-say) that the Browns were not happy with the play at RG and had real concerns about that position.

I haven't been able to watch a lot of the Browns so far this year. But I have not seen a lot of issues at RG. Reading this forum, it sounds like tackle has been a bigger issue. However...If this above RG issues/concerns is true, this could explain the reluctance to step up in the pocket.

For emphasis, I have no idea about the validity of the RG assertion. I am just presenting it as a discussion point.







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How about this...win some games and then talk?

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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
How about this...win some games and then talk?
I’m basically to this point too ... we just have to win some games here


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Speaking of audibles, did anyone else notice Baker calling our "Rumspringa" to audible into a run play?


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Originally Posted By: GratefulDawg


... and here I thought that play couldn't get any more ridiculous.


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Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
Speaking of audibles, did anyone else notice Baker calling our "Rumspringa" to audible into a run play?



I definitely heard this and questioned myself if that was what he was really saying. Maybe we have some Amish guys on the team.

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Almost certainly wasn't an audible.

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