Our QB is broken. He is bailing out of clean pockets.

We need more run-pass option offense.

Good game by Wilks and the defense.

Eric Murray was really good.

The timeout on 4th down was stupid. We’d still have a shot with three timeouts.

What happened to all the creative plays from last year?

A respectable loss.

This team has come a long way even with the injuries.

Why are we running plays from the shotgun with an empty backfield on 1st and goal from the 5?

We dont have the offensive line to run the offense we want to. Dorsey's fatal flaw was while he was out getting all these big names he forgot about the offensive line

our defense played their asses off.

stopped the run. got 3 turnovers. they went out there and fought.

our highly paid WR duo combined for NINE FREAKING CATCHES, at no fault of their own.

Baker was bailing out of clean pockets. he straight up ran into a sack by clay matthews. he held the ball forever, and constantly rolled to his right.

i dont want to hear crap about our OL. they consistently gave baker time to throw the entire night. they opened good holes for Chubb, who had a good game.

i understand this is game 3. but lets be clear here: the ONLY reason this game was close was because of our defense. our offense completely stunk it up, and that absolutely starts with baker mayfield.

That is a great question. Horrible play calling.

The gameday thread was entertaining. Freddy sucks, draft a qb next year. We lost to the NFC champs in a nailbiter with our entire defensive secondary missing. You guys are hilarous.

UUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!
Penalties, Penalties, Penalties. Poor clock management at end of game. Pass, pass, pass, instead of a Chubb run. Two timeouts that they didn't use. Oh the mistakes of a rookie HC. FRUSTRATING!!!

Poor play calling. Who runs a draw on fourth and nine? Why didn't we run the ball at the end?

It was first and goal and we just kept throwing it.

We played an elite team tonight and had a good showing.

I think he is frustrated. Defenses know he likes to throw downfield, so they are taking it away from him. The problem is Monken's offense has no sense of balance to it, so we just keep trying to throw downfield, even when it is not there.

I’m so sick of losing.

If we tried and just got beat id be fine but we just called such bonehead plays and Baker pooped the bed.

Before the game I thought I’d be happy with it being this close but we Browns’d it so hard.

I just need some relief from this bonehead losing.

Well stated, and agreed

What game were you watching?

Our offense STUNK OUT LOUD.

Baker was under center about 5 or 6 times all game. If there was any doubt before there isn't now. We are running the full-on air-raid offense. Shotgun every down, run occasionally and never consistently and throw throw throw. Chubb isn't going to get anywhere near 1000 yards. Baker will set a Brown's record for pass attempts if he survives which is doubtful. We might as well let the OC call the plays. It's his offense. This is NOTHING like what we ran last season. There is no balance at all. We are completely pass-happy.

I agree, but the moral victory standings do not count.

Give Baker a bunch of scrubs so he has to actually figure out how to win.

Newsflash Baker, OBJ deep passes aren’t a real life cheat code. Get back to how you read it last year.

yall talking about the rams, who looked completely beatable today.

make no mistake, we have been making the same mistakes since week 1. there has been absolutely NO improvement on the offensive side of the ball.

none.

3 weeks straight of trash execution.

Baker looks more like a rookie than he did last year

Defense played lights out

Chubb needs more Carries

Playcalling was iffy at times especially with 1st and Goal at the end

We need to get healthy

We don’t have a qb yet. The one from last year feels like forever ago. People blaming the oline are foolish. Baker is the issue. The last play

[img:right]https://ibb.co/gtCMWNc[/img]

I'd like an answer to that one.

So does the league know Baker and his tendencies and are forcing him to take, change and adjust reads...or is it our system? Just asking, because he looks horrid out there.

Defense played well.. offense had one drive...

Agreed. Dunno why though. We had so much success with last years O. Baker seems so uncomfortable in this O. I hope Kitchens takes the reigns back soon. Otherwise why did we hire him?

Young QB struggling, Rookie HC out of his depth, Shaky at best Oline, Overhyped Offseason, and Fans that expect to lose.

None available.

Better game than the Jets even though we lost at home compared
to winning on the road. We have a lot of injuries and were playing a good team as opposed to last week.

Offensive line is going to be a major problem this entire season, unfortunately. Will be a problem for the entire offensive system. Kills ability to run and is messing up Baker.

Defensive was a nice surprise tonight. I was concerned it would be horrible. They definitely gave enough for the team to win.

Penalties continue to be awful.

The defense played really well, especially considering our entire starting secondary was out.

I am not happy with the scheme, and pass blocking.

If anyone would have told me, after the injury list was released, that we would lose this game by 7, with a chance to tie it at the very end, I would have told you that you were nuts.

It was a tough game, and we came up short. It happens.

We do need to fix some things on offense. It looks like we decided to ignore all of the things we did well in the passing game last year. We ran RPO and did well, then abandoned it. Freddie needs to get on top of that.

This early in the season they most certainly do.

Browns showed tonight they are ready for prime time, with a stitched up secondary no less.

We can beat Baltimore.

not with this offense.

We may be a team that plays better on the road.

We had the chance to share the Conference lead with the Ravens and blew it.

Whoever's offense this is, need a reality check. Get back to what we were doing well last year. Baker is not the same whatsoever. Way, way, way too much shotgun.

From deep in our own end on third down, a camera angle showed us running three guys deep, not even looking back.

even if thats true, thats sad.

I think it starts with the offensive system. This is NOTHING like the offense we ran last year. Baker was under center like 5 times all night. You CAN'T consistently run from the shotgun. The back has to stand there with his thumb up his kooloo waiting for the ball. Every run is a draw from the shotgun. Get Baker up under center and start running the damn football. That opens the playaction up. Get Chubb going and everything will come together. Ask Baker to throw the ball almost every down and you get what we had tonight. We have Chubb why not USE him? If we aren't going to then trade him.

It is only 3 games, so it is early. There is time to get it fixed.

The combination of bad playcalling (same old deep routes when a completion and moving the sticks will work) and Baker bailing out of clean pockets makes for an inefficient offense. The maddening part is that we know what works.

Say Freddie decided to scrap this system (just saying) how long until we can get back to where we were moving the ball downfield like last year? ...because everything offensively looks bad

Totally disagree. Clean pockets? Are you blind? Replay the game and see the pockets Goff was throwing out of, those were clean. Baker didn't throw out of one of those all night.

You are parroting the poor commentary of the announcers. Did he run out of avalanching pockets before the snow hit? Yes, as well he should.

The real problem is Freddy Kitchens is completely in over his head. 1 and Goal from the 5. First play empty set, stupid! Defense response: Sell out rush, no chance for a run.

4 plays run it, gain 1.5 yards.

Fire Freddy!

i agree. the shotgun stuff is bothering me. i get that a lot of teams is running shotgun more, but we are running it almost exclusively.

Aaron Donald was on our side of the LOS, in our lineman's heads and in our QB's head all night. He was like the boogeyman, a one man wrecking machine.

Yeah, it's ALL Baker's fault. The offense is PERFECT as is. Shotgun every down, throwing the ball 50 times a game. Fine, if the offense is great as is, then trade Chubb. Not like we need him in this offense.

The Air-raid SUCKS. Period. It's a college offense.

I just hope dorsey doesn’t waste too much time waiting for kitchens to figure out when it appears he won’t. This is a desirable gig now . Well it was before mayfield turned into spergyon Wynn. So have to figure out if it’s baker or Freddy the issue. Prob a bit of both. Neither look like they should be at this leve

I think Baker is playing hurt. He was/is too good to be this bad. His accuracy is off which is one of his strongest qualities, but he left that first game with his wrist wrapped and we never heard squat about that. Been off a bit on throws since just after that first drive in that game.

Listening to the post game press conference, on the 4th and 9, it was a bad call.

you are right, but also why earlier are we running the ball on 4 and 9 around midfield?

i wouldnt run that play if my RB was jim brown.

and why not throw to our 2 best receivers on that series on the goal line AT LEAST ONCE??

To me all this goes mainly to play-calling. I like freddie, he is a good coach - but i have seen this before in the NFL, new coaches who call plays get caught up in "outsmarting" the other other Coach, rather than going with the team's strengths.

I think it was about 5 snaps under center tonight.

Tough loss. D was outstanding. Baker was better other than scrambling out of clean pockets. Play calling... that was ok at times and darn right moronic at others. Freddie needs to keep improving. Eliminate the stupid stuff ... 1st and goal and empty backfields with no extra TEs blocking. Good grief. 4th an 9 and a draw play... no challenge to offset the penalty on 2nd and 9.

Big test next week. I think we are going to win.

Defense played pretty darn well. Only thing that frustrated me were the lack of containment on all the many bootlegs Goff ran. DEs continued to follow the crowd, as opposed to holding their position.

Offensively.... Freddie, ol' dear Freddie. I'm scratching my head on a lot of calls tonight. 3 games in, and I'm officially worried. Did well in getting Chubb involved. But the 4th and 9 draw.. the must convert 3rd down and we run verts on all WRs (no one stops at the 1st down marker???).. and the empty backfield inside the 5 with 3 TO's... No designed play to OBJ? No jet sweep to catch defense off guard? #cmonson

Baker is holding the ball too long as well. He had magic feet last season. Would step up in the pocket to avoid pressure. Now he just scrambles right. Frustrating.

No one disputing the offense sucks, but it sucks even more when your qb isn’t capable of doing anything

That was Todd Haley's offense which FK modified.

This is Freddie Kitchen's Offense.

It was a horrible call, tacking on to a bad decision to go for it in the first place.
Should have punted. FK is starting to disappoint.

That was while he was dropping. What happened at the back foot of his drop? The middle gets clogged, and 56 comes around the offensive left end almost unblocked, and Matthews came off the right. 99 ( I think we know who he is) also worked back to the middle.

When your left tackle is at the 18, after the play started at the 5 ..... there's a problem.

Now are you suggesting that Baker should have run the ball? That he should have not made his drop, and instead stepped forward, not allowing his receivers time to work open?

Last week in the post game press conference Kitchens and Baker said all the right things about getting it fixed. Nothing changed.

He's plenty capable, he has shown that.

We should be running the same offense we ran last year. Instead, we are running a college offense. If the NFL allowed it, Baker would be clapping his hands to start the play.

No, he immediately took off right after this

Not this year. To the contrary. He’s been an erratic turnover machine

Baker Mayfield is by far the best QB we have had since 1999 and you say he is "hot trash" do you really know dumb that makes you sound

the offense we ran last year was Todd Haley's offense that Freddie modified. We are running Freddie's actual offense.

I would rather watch Baker draw up plays in the huddle than watch this play-calling continue.

it's terrible.

Baker is not the problem.

Because when he hit the back foot of his drop he had 56 and 52 bearing down on him, and Donald looped around to block up the middle. Maybe he could have run, but he would not have made it. There were too many men back in zone.

Baker of 2018? Yes...Baker of 2019? No

so obj and landry are not the guys to go to on 4th down...our 3rd string te is the guy to go to on 4th and 13

If they are going to stay with this offense, better to let monken call the plays. Freddie is who most thought he was. A career position coach ascending with no qualifications. It’s just too much. They aren’t disciplined and playcalling has not flow or even an identity. Monken has lived and breathed this offense for 30 years

He's not the whole problem.

Is this a byproduct of Freddie or Todd?
Either way, it HAS to STOP.

For what it's worth Chris Collingsworth did say at the end of the game we don't have good enough OT to run certain plays and that's why Baker had to run around so much. Let's face it, we knew our OT weren't that good and it shows.

Yeah I get you don’t understand. Not surprised. But this version of baker wouldn’t even make the the top 10

Honestly, if this O is what we are going to get out of Kitchens I’d pull the plug at the end of the year. We need a coach who is going to run the ball protect his QB, etc. Kitchens has no clue wth is going on out there

i was hyped about FK being our HC, but skeptical about Wilks being our DC during the offseason.

now? im completely sold on Wilks being our DC, and really wondering if FK was the right HC.

yes, its true: that was Haley's offense that Kitchens was running last season.

now? its his and Monkens. and it looks completely different. and the results are completely different, and not in a good way.

Who drew up these plays? Where are the plays and designs from last year. Those were genius, these are hot garbage.

if arguably the #1 WR in the game, and a top 15 WR in landry arent the guys to go to on the money downs, then whats the point of having them on the team?

I feel sick. So sick.

Someone say something to restore hope please.

And zampese’s game plans

voice of reason.. most of the winers had us losing by 30

j/c

one more thing - why not challenge that interference call where he was clearly pushed out bounds? Yes you don't gain or lose that much yardage, offsetting penalties would let you keep your down! We could have used that down.

Its not like we didn't need the extra down in a tight game like this.

Good points. The formations and play calling at the end was moronic. Even if they ran the ball on 1st or 2nd and goal and didn't make it time wouldn't have run out. They still had 2 timeouts left. I think with a more experienced HC we win that game.

the HC who wants to be an OC is the problem.
Dude needs to turn over the keys to calling plays to the Monk


I'm betting the grumbling between the HC and OC is probably accurate.

so you didnt like the draw on 4th a 13 then? or the pass to number 89 instead of obj or landry?

Cuz our coach is in over his head.

Hope he learns quick cuz he’s costing us wins.

exactly!

Or make Monken HC and put Kitchens back at OC lol

Where did you hear that there was grumbling between the HC and OC?

there are stats disproving this. our OL are better that we are lead to believe. our play calling is terrible and baker is holdin the ball. 2 things that will make your OL look horrid.

agree 100%

Rookie head coach calling plays doesn't usually work out too well. Not a lot of kidding around and laughing it up and funny sound bites between Freddie and Baker so far this year.

One other thing:

We should have challenged the clear pass interference on RSJ when Talib shoved him out of bounds. We would have had off setting penalties and replayed second down.

Honestly, this goes to show that the offensive play design (and calling) is the problem, not Baker.

I'll leave it here

Yes our Oline is not that of Dallas's Oline...and it has issues, however it has been decent enough when everyone's available (dont get me wrong, we can use an influx of talent as well)

Our O is handicapped-the plays are evolving way too far downfield with questionable calls being placed...Baker is not seeing the field (visually I hope that's not why hes rolling) but hes having SEVERE issues with when and where to throw the ball...is that with our system? Is that with our HC? Or is that with Baker? I have no idea...everything is predictable this year, last year it was a polar opposite...all I know for certain, is the handicapped offense needs majorly adjusted or altered now...

It's both. Bailing out of clean pockets doesn't help anything.

The offense is broken. I'm not going to blame Baker, CLEARLY something with the coaching or schemes is making him very uncomfortable. I'm not even gonna give LA credit for that because this has gone on for 3 games now, and even his body language has been bad.

Something is clearly off, and I dont think its Bakers fault. I dont know enough about Monken to comment. Or who is calling the plays. They are wasting Baker. Something stinks here...

Aside from that....

Huge props to DC Steve Wilks and the Defense! They kept us in it all night. They were huge. Wouldnt have guessed our DB starters were all out. The backups stepped up. Good job, D!

That's the play I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Is this Monken's offense or Freddie's? How is Winston doing without Monken? Just curious as I haven't watched nor read anything about TB this year. But, it seems very strange that Mayfield appears so confused.

Baker is part of the problem, he’s not playing or reacting like he did last year. I’m hoping he settles down and gets comfortable again soon. The coaching is the biggest part of the problem. Freddie bought way too far into the hype, and did not have this team prepared to start the season. The defense is impressive. The offense, with all that hyped talent, is a disappointment so far. I have every hope that things progress, but Freddie and the coaching staff remain a big concern for me.

Wilks did ONE HELL OF A JOB for a DC that had half his team injured - i salute the "D" too!! They were great against a very good team,

I thought that play may have been a decoy in sending everyone deep for something to open up, but I couldn't really see anything...but very suspect as well.

Like I said for all the people that think Baker is bailing out of the pocket. Replay Goff's pockets, they were like a womb. Baker was throwing out of a quickly closing vise.

In fact go back and watch a replay of Baltimore and KC. Mahomes is throwing out of a clean pocket 80% of the time.

You will not get great QB play without a decent oline. If you have a poor oline (pass blocking) call appropriate plays. Run and play action play, run fast RPO's.

This entire post is pretty much false.

Winston has been the same...taking a crap load of time and forcing sacks and turnovers lol but I believe Winston was benched too in Monkens system, and Fitz shined, well for moments.

I agree to a point, but when you're only a second year QB, and you know you don't have the best tackles and RG, you're going to get happy feet. "Okay Baker, we have you pinned deep in your endzone, we need just 10 yards for a first, but we're going to run 3 WRs deep, and it should take them about 4 to 5 seconds before they even turn their heads around. Just stand in there and wait for it."

No your post is false, watch the tape.

Baker is holding the ball 3.07 snap to pass. 3rd highest in the league . He has a 0:3 td to not ratio and completing 55% . If you are getting over 3 seconds to throw, it’s not the oline. On the flip less than 2.5 he’s at 74% so I think it’s a mix between baker and scheme/playcalling. But if I’m the play caller I’m doing what I have to do to get the ball out with the playcalling to maximize what baker can do right now. That’s why the RPO worked. Sped up his decision making

But what is it? What would make him not say anything? He's not shy. Neither is OBJ.

If Freddie was running Haley's offense last year, and ditched it this year, we in BIG trouble.

I could go all night with the stupid play calling.

Porous oline, hey lets pass out of our end zone. Lucky as hell we did not get a safety, formally or by holding.

illegal shifts penalties non-stop. Terrible coaching!

Zero sets, non-stop shotgun???

Line looks horrible

Someone asked for help.steelers are 0/3

Glad I didn’t see the ol high snap out of Back of end zone Jff style

How about putting up a video of the whole play?

I’m proud of how we played today, we have the confidence.

Lol don’t need to. Pretty easy to see what the play should of been. Pray tell what’s wrong with the pocket there

My thoughts....

I don't think there's any question Baker is part of issue right now.

Im not a fan of some of the play calling.

Saying Baker stinks or we need to draft a QB is an overreaction.

The Oline wasn't as big an issue as some want to make it seem.

If Baker plays a little better or we call a better game, we win this one.

If I looked at it correctly, this is the first game the McVay-led Rams won a game when they score 20 or less points.


Freddie says it takes time to get the offense to mesh. He commented that last year was week 8 when he took over and at that point they knew what works. Is he saying he screwed up and should have had the offense play more in the preseason?

I'm confident we will get this team going... we are far from out of this thing.

There are lies, and damn lies. Posting an image of the play while Baker was in his drop is meaningless, and a damn lie.

Simply doing same thing isn’t working. We have discipline issues as well. I thinking letting monken call the plays until FK can get used to managing the game wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world. An experienced playcaller doesn’t have a 1st and goal at the end of the game look like that

cant let it go.. that’s not a drop that’s his reading the field. This is a different play on the drive. The right play would have been to take off. He could have crab walked in

Oh free lesson for you.. not a drop back when you’re in shotgun. You’re welcome

Freddie took the blame for the loss in the post-game conference.

Bull. You just don't know the game, do you?

One way to help a weak OL is to take the shotgun snap, then drop 3 steps, to get 5 steps back faster.

Again, post the whole play.

As he should. This offense sucks. They're undisciplined, the playcalling sucks, and our QB is lost/uncomfortable.

Somewhere it's not working out between Freddie, Monken, and Baker. We have no identity. We have nothing. We're completely out of synch.

Time to change the gameplanning. Start calling plays Baker is comfortable with. Work to get him into a rhythm.

Baker is Baker. That can't change. The variables are Freddie and Monken. Something needs to change. Something needs to be done differently. They need to work something out so that Baker is on the same page as to what's going on and this offense becomes efficient.

And that's before discussing lack of discipline and penalties at the worst times


Cause our defense did a good job tonight. Same with special teams. The offense is unacceptabley underachieving, and we cannot stick with the status quo. If this continues Freddie and Monken need to be handed their walking papers

We have to change the game-planning, and we have to remember that we also have 3 key members of the offense out.

(RT, TE, WR3)

We can't line up to play as if nothing is different. Next man up is fine and all, but sometimes to have to speed things up, simplify reads, and go with more max protects. (which we used to good effect last year)

I would add also that we used max protects last year, even with Zeittler at RG. The OL is weaker without him, and with the backup RT in, and we are going 5 wide at times. That makes no sense.

One more for lead, in case he prefers to read as opposed to watching:

Quarterback Fundamentals Part 3 - Football Toolbox
https://footballtoolbox.net/quarterback-fundamentals-part-3


3 – Step Drops – In the Gun and Pistol, the three-step drop is used most of the time. The basic footwork is:

Separation Step
Stride as deep as comfortable.
Pivot on the staggered foot and take a long step back toward the Passing Spot.
The head and eyes should be straight down field.
The “Chin & Spine” angle should be back.

Good defensive effort overall, though I wish we'd pressured Goff more often.

Not much to say on the O, other than this one was on Freddie. Less predictable than the other 2 which is good. But his playcalling was pretty poor IMHO.

Yeah...KC had Cameron Irving as their LT today due to injury, and Schwartz was at RT. They only allowed ONE sack today. Makes you wonder if the Browns previous coaching staff's actually adapted their systems to the players they had. Hmm.

I have a question: Why didn't they try to run the ball at least once inside the 5 at the end of the game? Chubb was averaging around 4 yards a carry I believe.

We did adapt, but for some reason we got away from the RPO.

Not sure of where to pin the blame on the offensive woes, but it's some combination of Freddy, Baker and Dorsey, and probably in that order.

Dorsey for not addressing the offensive line, having way too much faith in Corbett and letting Zeitler go. Baker for not being more decisive, bouncing out of the pocket pretty much every single time the play lasts longer than 3 seconds, and expecting to pull a rabbit out of his hat just because he was able to get away with it last year. That "you take it, no you take it" fumble was a Weedenesque embarrassment.

But it's Freddy that seems to have completely forgot what made us successful last year. It's like he bought into all the hype about himself, and felt he could just run whatever offense he wanted to install, and call whatever play he wanted to. He completely blew up the offensive staff and overhauled what he didn't need to overhaul.

Last year, I remember watching a "Baldy's breakdowns" where they showed them running a lot of two tight-end/1 back sets and giving Baker an easier 1-read offense, with lots of protection, so it was simplified and he could make quick decisions. So, this year, we run 4 WR sets, with a weaker line, no tail-back (which pretty much telegraphs that you're passing it), and expecting the oline to hold up for Baker while these deep complicated routes open up.

This game we switched to a RPO type offense for a drive or two, and things opened up. We moved the ball running, and it worked. So do we stick to this? No! We keep forcing the same tired crap over and over, and it resulted in the same thing every time. I would sit there and count, "One ... Two ... Well we're toast." Baker then would scramble to the outside, half of the time, right into an outside rusher, and then throw a terrible pass. Over and over. Collinsworth kept bringing it up. The NBC graphics guys brought it up, showing the terrible stats for plays lasting longer than 3 second. Browns fans everywhere were bringing it up. If I had a dog, he'd probably bring it up. But does the coaching staff switch back to calling quick hit plays? Nope ... keep trying to force that square peg in there. In fact, lets keep running empty backfield too while we're at it, so one of the best D-Lines in the NFL can pin their ears back and go after the QB.

That's all on the coaching staff. I mentioned it at the time, I wish we had kept Greg Williams with the caveat that he had to keep on most of the existing coaching staff from last year. Instead, we kept Kitchens, which I was okay with, provided he tried to keep the continuity as well. Instead, he scrapped everyone but one or two coaches. It looks like that decision is coming back to bite us. I'm hoping Kitchens can reflect back to what worked last year and learn from his mistakes. But when he calls a 4th and 9 draw play and 3 straight passes on 1st and goal from the 5, I'm really starting to worry.

The Defense played well tonight though. I've been really happy with TJ Carrie all season long. I mentioned in the game thread that he's probably had a better year than Ward so far. Even in the pre-season he just always seemed to be there making plays. The rest of the D made some big stands and got some key turnovers, and kept us in it. When we made the interception at the end, I was hoping he would run it back for 6, because that was our only hope of tying the game.

Great post, and well stated.

just got home from the game...can I vent as a season ticket holder ? $200 club seat to add....


Freddies a failure and over rated Baker...Thanks for listening...


Zampese ...come home

Good morning all

I got up at 1am UK time ended up falling asleep during half time but watched the game in 40 this morning.

Initial thoughts was we never got out played, we just got out coached.
baker wasn't great, i dont like this running backwards, to the side and then throwing. he had time and space in the pocket a lot and he never managed it well.

Tough L to take considering it was in our control. 2 L's at home too with some big tough road games to come.

A few of my thoughts after a few hours:

- Why didn’t Freddie challenge that push on Talib? It would have given us 2nd and 9 from the 40 instead of 3rd and 9 ... and there was less than 10 minutes in the game. He said it wasn’t worth the challenge ... umm, what am I missing? Seems idiotic to not trade a challenge for a down in that circumstance.

- Our defense played about as well as you could ever hope, especially given our personnel in the secondary.

- Murray was very good, as was Schobert ... I expect them to grade pretty highly

- Richardson also had a good game, as did Ogunjobi

- Our OL is a weak link, BUT I don’t think they were that bad last night ... Baker`` had time to throw and Chubb nearly ran for 100 against a top tier defense

- We didn’t miss a kick which is a positive ... the kicking game has been just fine thus far



Now to the stuff that’s gonna be the topic(s) of convo:

- Our offense is completely broken right now. ... it seems like a broken record, but we have no identity and are playing to our weaknesses (struggling OTs and a QB who is struggling with long developing plays)

- Where are the rub routes, crossing routes, pick plays, misdirections, creative RB alignments, etc? I’d venture to guess that we’re seeing A LOT of zone defense ... well, there has to be something to combat that, right? I just don’t get it. This offense is the worst I saw yesterday in any game.

- The last series inside the 10 yard line is just unacceptable. At first when we didn’t run and threw it I thought “well, they wanna save all 3 TO’s so if we don’t score we’ll still have a chance” ... and then we CALLED TIMEOUT on 4th down???

- How can we not have something schemed up for that scenario? How can we not run it ONCE (or even have the THREAT to run it?) This was MORONIC coaching.

- We were gifted two great defensive INTs .. and came away with 0 points after great field position on both ... unacceptable.

- Baker is a shell of himself right now ... escaping the pocket to the right for no reason. Drifting on his throws. Not progressing more than one receiving option. He’s regressing big time. This is concern #1 for this team and this franchise moving ahead.

Rookie Coach who got Out Coached.
Rookie QB...only his 15th or 16th start.... getting plays that take too long to develop... hell I'd have settled for the Wishbone again...
Aaron Donald and Clay Matthews, finished products of what we are striving for, eating QB's lunch...
And we were still in it at the end.

D w/ NEXT SECONDARY UP...and we're still we in it to the end.
These guys are are real deal. KUDOS!

I seriously thought we would be down by 14 at the half.
Empty stadium and Rams clean up QB by the end...

O needs to get back to and get comfortable w/ the basics and then work up to grandstanding.

I agree that the O needs to get back to more simplistic things that we are good at doing ... and I thought that was pretty apparent after the last two weeks ... but it was more of the same last night.

The final four plays is a microcosm of this offensive disaster: poor play design, a QB who can’t read the D and is skittish/escapes too quickly, and completely abandoning the run in key spots

Jc

3 straight weeks of zero improvement from the offense.

We lead the league in penalties AND penalty yards.

Through 3 weeks, we are the most undisciplined team in the nfl.

All this talent on offense.....smh.

Great observations - and you , CincyDawg and Dawgs4Life all nailed it in my opinion.

I thought Baker was improved this game from an accuracy perspective (when he wasn't running around) - I don't remember him blatantly missing wide open receivers which happened in Game 1 and 2. But he still held the ball too long and started scampering when not needed.

Rookie head coach getting out coached ... and woeful play calling. Said it after game 1 and 2 and now 3 - we should have been using the basis of lasts years successful O to build on, add wrinkles and formations, but stick with something that worked as a foundation to fall back on.

With that said - out-coached with woeful play calling and injuries out the wazzoo - we should have taken the defending NFC title holders and one of the Favs for the SB this year to OT...... We have things to fix, but we are still in a much better place than we have been for the last 19 years.

One comment on the OL and Dorsey - I don't know that the OL is really all that bad at all. I think combo of Play Calling and Baker are causing most of the issue there.

Just to comment on Baker’s accuracy, I do recall a couple of throws that were off target ... one of them to Landry in a big spot (I think Collinsworth noted that he had a little wiggle at the top of his route). And another to OBJ that OBJ actually caught, but couldn’t go anywhere with it.

Lastly, It seemed like last year he was MONEY on the move to his right hitting that sideline pass ... this year it seems to have no chance

Baker was 50% last night.

Through 3 weeks, he’s 56.9% with 3 TDs and 5 picks.

Yeah - the throw to the 'wiggling' Landry, Collingsworth sort of placed the blame on Landry. And I am not sure which OBJ throw you meant. but two questionable throws would be a huge improvement from first two games.

The running to the right might be something that teams are keyed into now they have had tape and time to study Baker? If that's a tendency and a area of strength you'd work to prevent/neutralize it.

Whether off play action or simply a naked roll out/moving pocket, I would have liked to see us call something that changed things up a bit. Man you could see what it did for the Rams when they called that a few times in the second half.

If you're saying Baker should have stepped up in the pocket to throw you may have been right. If you're suggesting Baker should have taken off and ran it in he would have never made it. It looks pretty clear to me he's over 10 yards away in that picture. It wasn't happening.

My 02.

- I saw a superior defensive effort that on any other night, would have been enough.

- Wilkes called the best Defensive game plan for a Browns team I have seen in a long time at First Energy Stadium

- Our offense - oye. Baker is afraid in the pocket. It starts there. We all say the stats on plays over 2.5 seconds. PART of that is the Oline not being able to hold blocks, PART of that is the route concepts we are running (really streaks on 1-10 on your own 10??), PART of that is the concept of the offensive scheme, and a BIG PART of that is Baker having happy feet. The entire offense needs to gel and quick - starting with Bake.

- Chubb was having a great game - your defense was playing lights out, at WHAT POINT to exclusively go to him to open up the pass? I watched a 3rd and short with a CB playing about 7 yards off OBJ, for him to run straight down the field and get blanketed. I don't recall seeing 1 single curl route the entire game.

- I don't wanna hear about these "we hung in there with the NFC Champs" moral victory post. This was our game to win. The def set it up and the coaching staff and baker threw it down the sewer.

- Play calling...….It needs to change. If its Monkens scheme we are running, Freddie needs to take over the scheme.

****I honestly feel Freddie thought it was 3rd and 9 and that's why he ran the draw play. He knew he wanted to go on 4th there, so he ran a draw to make it 4th and short. Problem is, he didn't know what down it was. JMO.

Bottom line - this loss should have been a Win. If we lose to Balt next week, the wheels might fall off.

Haven't read any other posts yet, so this is all likely been covered.

My thoughts:

- The D was outstanding. Whole new defensive backfield, Kirksey out. The game plan was fantastic. Held the Rams to 20 points.

- The Rams had to work for everything they got on offense. No huge play, they had to use sustained drives.

- We cut down on penalties. We had so many week 1 that we could the next 3 weeks with zero penalties and still lead the league.

- No excuse to not challenge that pass interference. Rookie mistake by the coach, but why did no assistant coaches urge him to do so?

- The play-calling still leaves something to be desired. Those quick passes were working, why go away from it? I have said this before, there is nothing wrong with getting 8 yards on a play. That is a success. But it seems like the play callers, and our QB at times, has a problem with this.

- Did the Rams defense do something to take those quick passes away from us? If so, I did not see it.

- That draw on 4th and 9 was not a good call. I can see snapping the ball because the week before we lined up in that same situation and let the clock run out while we tried to get the D to jump. Actually snapping the ball in that situation last night made some sense. Some. But a quick slant or something. Not a draw.

- First and goal from the 4.5 and we had timeouts. Why empty backfield to start? Run Chubb on first down.

- Not the blowout that was expected by many.

He should have done either one of those.

J/c

I think Freddie mucked up that whole series with the non-challenge and the 4th down draw ... almost like he didn’t quite understand the benefits of challenging and/or what down it was. That was, perhaps, where we really put ourselves in a bad spot

Good question. Maybe they thought if they ran the ball and didn't get a TD time would run out. Oh wait a minute, they still had 2 freaking time outs left. The mistakes of a rookie HC.

Well, we had ALL THREE timeouts when it was 1st and goal after the penalty ... so we either didn’t want to use any of them to perhaps get another possession (and then inexplicably changed our minds and called TO on 4th down) .. or we had the worst play calls I’ve seen in that spot

On not challenging the pass interference call. Maybe Freddie thought since the first penalty was against the offense the play was dead. It was like the pass interference never happened and he would have lost the challenge. I don't know.

After all this and we are still 2nd in the division and only 1 game out of being tied for first.

Still time to right the ship.

That's right there were three TOs left. Two ended up going unused.

From that picture it looked like Baker could have walked into the end zone.

We have WRs streaking down the field when we have poor OTs, it’s 3rd and long, and there’s no drag routes or anything ... I dont get it

I was positively shocked they were in it until the end. No way did I see that one coming.

Mayfield didn't look sharp but I don't believe he lost the game all on his own. Penalties were a big part of it, again. Take those out of the equation and I'd be willing to bet the game would look vastly different. A lack of discipline and communication comes back to bit them.

When the game was winding down I believe Mayfield started to panic a bit. He wasn't as patient as he was in the first half. And with that LA pass rush bad things can happen when you step out of the pocket. So that's on Mayfield.

Defense? Oh my. They're going to ravage someone before the year is over. A couple of stupid breakdowns let LA score.

It's going to be a long season and I'll be watching entire games for a change. That's weird. And that means they're still trending in the right direction.

Cleveland Browns Postgame Scribbles: The coach, the QB, the frustration — changes are needed
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/09...rustration.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio – Scribbles in my notebook after the Browns lost, 20-13, to the Los Angeles Rams in FirstEnergy Stadium:

1. The Cleveland Browns have a rookie head coach in Freddie Kitchens. They have a second-year QB who suddenly is looking more like a rookie in Baker Mayfield. They have significant problems on the offensive line.

2. No QB finds it easy to deal with pressure when he drops back to pass. But it appears Mayfield is leaving the pocket faster than he did a year ago – running for his football life. Part of Mayfield’s success has been his ability to move and throw out of the pocket, but not when he’s 20 yards behind the line of scrimmage, as has sometimes been the case this season.

3. The Browns certainly have some X’s and O’s issues on offense. But they also have a head coach and QB who never imagined it would be this hard early in the 2019 season. It’s the first time they have received any serious criticism in their NFL careers. You can feel their frustration.

4. In my Sunday post-game column, I dealt with Kitchens’ problems with play-calling and pre-game preparation. I can’t recall the last time the Browns were flagged three times for illegal formations in a game. Two of the guilty parties were Odell Beckham Jr. and Pharaoh Brown. The third was not named by the officials.

5. They also had three false starts: Greg Robinson, Eric Kush and Joel Bitonio. That’s six pre-snap penalties on the offense. SIX! That is a preparation issue. Remember, the Browns were playing at home so the noise should not have been a big factor for the offensive line when it came to hearing play calls.

6. Kitchens said: “Do not blame any of our players. Do not blame any of our other coaches. Just blame me because I can take it. Blame me."

7. Kitchens is going to have to learn to deal with the heat. I am blaming him, but not for everything. Mayfield has to play better. He missed a wide-open Jarvis Landry in the middle of the fourth quarter to keep a drive alive. The pass was late and behind the receiver. He struggled most of the night, completing 18-of-36 passes for 195 yards.

8. The Browns were on the Rams 4-yard line with 43 seconds left in the game and three time outs. They were behind, 20-13. They threw four passes. Three were incomplete. The third went to Demetrius Harris in the end zone. It was a high throw, a jump ball between Harris and the defender.

9. Mayfield said: “I think I’ll have reoccurring nightmares about going to Demetrius over the top. I think I had Jarvis underneath.” Yes, Landry was more open than Harris. And Landry certainly is the superior receiver to tight end Harris. The fourth pass of the series was intercepted.

10. After the game, Kitchens admitted he was “kicking myself in the ass” for not running the ball at least once when they were near the goal line at the end of the game. I don’t know what was supposed to happen on every play in the final few minutes. I do know Mayfield looked uncertain and frazzled on a few of those plays.

11. Mayfield’s stats after three games: 5 interceptions, 3 TDs, 11 sacks and 57 percent of his passes completed.

12. This is the same Baker Mayfield who was sacked only five times in the final eight games in 2018 under Kitchens as offensive coordinator. In that span, he had 19 TDs, 8 interceptions, and 67 percent completed. The Browns had an 5-3 record.

13. Kitchens said: "We kind of hit the ground running last year. We had been through eight games already so we know what we were doing. . . I have to do a better job during the course of the week of putting these guys in better situations and on game day . . Go write your article and say that I messed the game up. Go write your article and say that it is my fault that things are not looking like it did last year, because it is.”

14. Truth is, some of the blame is with Kitchens. Perhaps it’s because he is trying to blend his offense together with new offensive coordinator Todd Monken. Add in losing Kevin Zeitler (trade) and Chris Hubbard (injury) on the offensive line. Finally, there is Mayfield having his first real slump as a pro.

15. The season is three games old. Lots of things can change. But the Browns having scored only five TDs in those three games? That has to change fast.

Pretty nice and fair synopsis by Pluto ... the completion percentage and sack percentage are pretty bad when compared to other teams (and when compared to our team last season).

I couldn’t help but think all night: imagine if we switched coaching staffs and had the Rams’ scheme, crispness, discipline, etc

If we had a fullback, we probably win that game by punching it into the endzone when inside the 5 yard line instead of running out of a 5 wide set.

In general, I think there is plenty of blame to go around, but the most blame is on this Air Raid system. This scheme does not work in the NFL, and when a good D line can apply pressure with just 4 guys against 5 or 6 in protection, then they can bracket every receiver and this system doesn't do many creative things like picks to help them get open. The Rams gave us the underneath stuff all day long, and when we dinked-and-dunked, we were able to move the ball well, which I have no problem with. The problem with this comes when you get into the red zone and those 5 WRs cannot stretch out the defense and you do not scheme a way for them to get open.

We were in the red zone 4 times and only came away with 13 points. If Browns are 50% in the red zone, then they tie. If 75%, then they win.

Good point ... in the red zone the empty set makes you have way less margin for error.

I just felt like having a RB THREAT at least had to be there.

Heck, why not just put Baker under center and keep the D honest. Shotgun with 5 wide is a tall order IMO

Blame me because I can take it?

For some reason, that irked me. Maybe something like, Blame me because I have to take accountability? Blame me because I am the head coach? Blame me because there are things I need to improve?

I almost think they need to bring in a passing game coordinator that's familiar with a different system. Like Zampese. Either that or if you're going to live/die with the air raid, give it to Monken to call..He's been successful and has put out prolific offenses with it, even last year with TB, they were much better.. What's funny is Air Raid is supposed to be Qb friendly, mixing in deep balls with quick hitting plays..Monken actually uses a mix of Air Raid and Air Coryell Heres a good article about it:

https://www.bucsnation.com/2018/9/27/179...-jameis-winston

Could Kitchens be on the hot seat already?

No, but I bet Dorsey is regretting his decision right now. At the very least, it’s apparent that this team needed an established head coach to navigate us

I don't understand how you have a former coach of the year, a superbowl coach and one of the best qb whisperers of all time, openly campaigning for the job, and you don't even interview him (Bruce Arians) The whole "search" seemed pretty ceremonial

Without hearing the presser and just reading it, that irked me as well. Not sure if I'll listen to the presser or not, but it sounds like a dumb thing to say.

Lot of tough talk from Baker and Freddie and they are being humbled. Unfortunately I don't see anything changing. They just can't beat a good team. They are the opposite of clutch, whether it's playcalling or execution.

I've never seen Baker be clutch against a good team going all the way back to the playoff game against UGA. This is probably my number one red flag right now. Your QB has to win you some games to be successful. Four chances from the four yard line. Playcalling is irrelevant. Just make a play.

Or make a commercial.

The real issue is I don't think Baker will be humbled by this. He's going to be defiant and I'm concerned about what that means for his improvement.

Baker pretty much confirmed with his interview with Tirico that it was his call on the coach.

if true..wow, I lose alot of respect for Dorsey then...This was an awesome gig in the offseason..now it won't be near as appealing

Especially when Arians said he'd keep Freddie as OC and groom him...it would have been win/win

Really shows how awful this system is and how quickly we need to change it. Unfortunately, it is what they have spent all offseason working on.

For anyone not seeing this as the most fundamental issue with the offense, I would ask. How hard are those DBs working to do there job against those routes?

Here is a video clip of the safety we took against Tennessee. The camera doesn't show the full routes, but you can clearly see that there is nothing done to get a receiver open quickly. They all just takeoff downfield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCBEtgYurIA

I am defending Baker in these offensive struggles, even when technically by the book he did leave the pocket a hair early or miss a throw. Why? Because the horrific play calling and substandard oline is creating a conditioned response from him. If 4 out of 5 plays he is under pressure and no one is open for 6 seconds, on the 5th play he'll take off. Want evidence its the play calling and not Baker? Look at the 1st vs. 2nd halfs of last season. Same player, in good and bad settings. Look at Goff under Jeff Fisher, the league was about to throw him in the trash bin, then under McVay, he instantly becomes a probowler.

The Browns are well of their way to completely destroying their QB running a offense the don't have the oline for. If you want to give your QB PTSD and then blame him for not playing good have fun, Tom Brady would be roasted in this offense. Want the real solution? Go max protect, run the ball, play action pass, RPO. Force the defense to commit to stoping the run and everything will open from there.

Sorry - I don't believe that for a second. Baker might feel like it was his call - Baker might want to support Freddie 110% .... the direction of the franchise and the new HC was not in the hands of a rookie QB. Period. End of.

As for "They can't beat a good team - they are hopeless" and "They wioll never improve coz they are so arrogant" stuff ... that sort of rhetoric and over reaction makes me want to start highlighting all the "moral victory" stuff which honestly I don't want to do.... but damn, Freddie's been a HC for all of 3 games. Baker hasn't yet played a full season. They played a crappy offensive game plan .... and they were still in the game... against the freaking Rams who went to the SB last year and who are probably going to the championship game if not the SB this year. Man, there is a lot not to like - or better yet, there is a ton that can be improved. Let's not decide now on Monday after a tough loss that Kitchens should never have been coach and that Baker is now trash... smh.

If anyone follows Jake Burns of twitter...he's pretty flabbergasted about wth baker and kitchens are doing He has a breakdown of the final series as well

Wasn't there something about Dorsey saying he "flexed his muscle" in order to get Kitchens over the current Vikings OC though?

lucky us..lol

I’m also hoping for more Ricky Seals Jones next week ... he at least appears to give us a chance to throw to TEs

We have a rookie QB with LESS than ONE year of experience. We have a rookie HC with THREE games of experience. We have a patch work OL. We have 7-8 injured starters. Everyone needs to R-E-L-A-X. It is YEAR ONE with this group. We will see progress thru the year. Baker will continue to learn, the game will slow down for him and he will become more patient. It's all good. Please stop talking about the playoffs and Super Bowl for now. Incremental progress is a good thing. We have A LOT of talent on this team. They need to come TOGETHER. This takes TIME. This is exactly what this year is for. The next few years are going to be fun. Mark it down. Have a good week everyone. On to Baltimore.

You're like the resident over exaggerator. Calm down.

I was the only positive one before this game. I was the only one even giving us a chance.

And big picture, I agree with you. These guys need more time and need time to grow, both coach and QB.

But when you control your own fate in a game and don't deliver it's frustrating. If we were being blown out that's a different kind of frustration. But when your next step as a team is to beat good teams and you control whether or not that happens and crap the bed, you start to wonder if it's ever going to happen.

I've questioned Baker's clutchness last year, in the off season, and now. He's done nothing to show that I am wrong. I will continue to question it until he proves me wrong. I thought he was going to prove me wrong this game. I am frustrated that he didn't.

You post is all nice and supportinve, but your forgetting we are not seeing progress. We are seeing a shell of a team from last year. And we are seeing a year 2 QB play much much worse than he did last year.

My thoughts:

--Very impressed w/what Wilks did last night. I really questioned him before the season, but he borrowed a lot of what the Patriots did against the Rams last year and it worked.

--Great job by Dorsey of accumulating so many good secondary players. We are really deep there.

--I thought Murray and Carrie shined last night. Very impressed w/how they both stepped-up. I liked Burris in preseason and I am happy he is back.

--I thought Vernon and Ogunjobi had solid games.

--Schobert was pretty solid and Wilson wasn't too bad.

--I think Chubb is my favorite player on the team. He doesn't talk much or seek attention. He just balls.

--I thought the OL played well considering who they were playing against. The RT wasn't too bad.

--The penalty situation is still a concern. There were at least three that were declined and some of our penalties were due to lack of focus. I know that OBJ got called for the one motion penalty, but that was on Baker because Baker actually motioned for OBJ to go in motion.

--Some of the decisions by Freddie are mind-boggling. Running a draw on 4th and long? Going empty inside the five on the first play. Our personnel packages don't fit well w/our qb. No challenge of a PI. Tough talk.

--Baker was bad. He walks into pressure instead of staying in the pocket. He is so freaking slow at reading coverages and is often confused. His mechanics are inconsistent. He either can't see the open receivers or refuses to throw to them.

--This team has a ton of talent and they have a chance to be good, but our HC and QB need to live up to all their hype. Both are holding the team back.

Just for comparison sake, I watched some highlights from last year’s offense ... So, we add a top 3 WR in the NFL, have had a full offseason to improve and get our QB even more comfortable ... and this is the product? what in the heck has happened?!

Freddie took the blame. He owned it. That is encouraging he will learn from his mistakes. Baker has to stay in the pocket when there is one.

j/c:



Victory!

lA is 12th?! Dang, not an NFL city

One of the things that was concerning to see was Baker's immediacy to leave the pocket. Last year he did such a good job hanging in there or moving up but he has totally abandoned that it seems. A major reason could be the complete lack of faith in his line.

Not only did he feel the need to roll out but he kept putting himself further and further behind the LOS on those plays as he immediately invited good edge rushers to pursue. It was extremely frustrating to see.

Baker needs to get better but this line is frustrating to watch. I get it was against a good LAR line but things seemed to collapse quite a bit last night, whether or not Baker was holding the ball too long.

Also, Freddie Kitchens is getting an F grade from me so far this year. Lack of preparation and situational awareness has been absolutely astounding. He doesn't come across as an overall intelligent person and allows emotion to take over instantly.

j/c

In terms of our offense, what exactly is our identity? (Or what is our HOPE that our identity is?) ... Freddie PREACHED physical, smash mouth football ... and then we’re INSIDE THE 5 with FOUR downs to go for a chance to beat the NFC Champs ... and we go EMPTY like a finesse arena team?

Funny - I thought he stepped into a Jets game in the first NFL game he ever played in, without ever practicing with the 1's and was pretty "clutch" - but that's just me.

As for why we lost the game? Ultimately I blame the offensive play calling in two key situations ... and to be fair if Hue had done either of these he would have been blasted:

1. 4th and 9 - and we call a draw play. Not only should we have thrown the flag for the review on PI - and it would have been 3rd and 9 ... but then a draw play in mid field for 4th and 9? Awful.
2. 1st and goal - from the 5 yard line and we run 4 plays with an empty backfield. Possible the single dumbest most moronic thing I have seen in the last 20 years.

My post-game thoughts. After three games we are in my view just now verifying the results of miscues committed during the coaching search, the off season and pre-season:

1. Kitchens and/or Zampese last year successfully adapted Haley's offense to meet the needs and skills of personnel.

2. Dorsey hired Kitchens to be HC knowing that the plan was to completely scrap the O used last year and install a completely new offensive scheme. How could it be otherwise?

3. Kitchens did not possess a ready-to-go offensive scheme

4. Kitchens brought in Monkken and chose to adopt his entire offensive scheme

5. Kitchens chose to call his own plays using Monken's scheme rather than have Monkken call plays while using Monken's scheme.

6. Kitchens chose to not play starters in pre-season and assumed the scheme could be completely ready to go based on OTAs and practice sessions, or at least at a point more along than what we are now seeing.

7. Both the HC and the QB are still learning Monken's scheme three games into the season.

My only substantive question at this point is whether Kitchens is willing and/or able to respond to the miscues and either revamp the offense to fit the players or quicken the pace of successful implementation of the air raid offense.

Baker has not played well. But, it seems pretty clear that the roots of the O problems stemmed from decisions made during the coaching search, the off season, and the pre season. What was the point of hiring Kitchens if the plan was to entirely scrap last year's offense? To me, the maintenance of some sort of continuity in offensive scheme was Kitchen's number one selling point. If not, what did Dorsey view as Kitchen's big strength other than his relationship with Mayfield?

Freddie didn't get out coached by McVay.

Freddie out coached himself.

Hard to underestimate this point ... I agree 100% and if there was a play that personified how prepared Wilks and this D was ... the interception on 3rd and short (I think it was only 2 or 3 yards Rams needed) and the D was in the perfect D to stifle the Rams aggressive call. Admittedly, Gurley was open for a short pass and first down in the middle but Goff didn't see him.

Great post.

Just for clarification, went back and read up on some of Bakers Draft reports/scouting.. Everything he was exceptional at then, is the opposite now, accuracy, ball placement, throwing under pressure, moving in the pocket, reading defenses quickly. We saw it last year as true...he did all those things...think about some of those passes where he slid around and threw a ball that had no business being completed and it was because only his guy could get his hands on it. What changed...I think it comes down to Baker not trusting Kitchens and this scheme..I think alot of it is FK calling plays from an offense he knows nothing about. I've said before, Monken has always had successful Offenses everywhere he's gone, so why wouldn't you let him do it...Ego..sorry Freddie, you haven't proven anything to have any sort of ego. Time to let Monken call the plays and you just work on game management.. you know..managing the clock, penalties and Challenges...all the things you suck at now. Get good at those first, then worry about who's calling the plays

This defense should keep us in every game and give the offense every chance to win it. Looking at the injury report and just about every single player on it was a starting defensive player, noone would have blamed them for giving up 30+ points.. Offense doesn't have an injury excuse, hell McCray played better than Hubbard has in 2 years

Very nice post, Frank. Welcome to the board.

I enjoyed the RPO offense and the Rams didn't. It seemed like we should have been doing that all night (mix in a run or two for Mayfield as well).

Again, the timeout on 4th down, why? If we fail and still have 3 timeouts, we can still force a punt and get the ball back with 20 seconds at midfield. Is it unlikely to win there, yes, but it's another chance. Then again, they could have been going faster that drive to maximize the time left had we not scored. I didn't see that urgency.

I feel okay with the result. We played them close and I thought we would get rolled. Our defense is good. We need to keep the fast offense for Baker to get comfortable. When the opposing defense isn't expecting, then go down field.

My thoughts:

Great game by Wilks and the defense. We held one of the most high powered offenses in the NFL to 20 points with a secondary missing everyone of it's starters and that is exceptional. I will say though that #35(Whitehead) needs to be cut, the dude can't cover and most of the time when he went to tackle someone he would launch himself and hit the player with a shoulder and not wrap up and the other player would just keep going like nothing happened.

Offensively we have problems. The play calling at times leaves a lot to be desired, calling the draw play on 4th & 9, limiting yourself by having an empty backfield when you are goal to go (at least put a guy in motion to give the defense the idea that it could be an end round), running plays that require the WRs to run routes 25 yards down field when your backed up against your own end zone, etc. As for Mayfield he almost seems as though he's scared to get hit, he never seems to step up in the pocket, he always takes off to his right. I don't know if he thinks he's trying to buy more time to hit the big play or what but sometimes you just got to take what the defense gives you. O-line wise we are not bad but our OTs sure won't be confused with Pro Bowl players, we are ok as long as Freddie doesn't call long developing plays but there again that is part of the problem as Freddie doesn't seem to be calling that many quick throws. Oh well hopefully we can get it all together next week.

I keep reading from the coaches that we need to call plays that get the ball out of Baker's hand quickly...then...in the shadow of our own endzone...we call THAT play. That tells me that the 'need to get back to plays that get the ball out quicker' mantra is BS. It appears that we are pounding a square peg into a round hole.

The play-calling is poor and doesn't fit the personnel. Everything else I'm about to say follows that poor play-calling.

The OL cannot sustain blocks for long-developing plays...they simply cannot. Asking them to do something that they simply cannot do is the opposite of what FK did last year after becoming HC. Yet he/they keep doing it.

Baker is all out of whack. He's getting play-calls that don't make sense for the personnel in front of him...and when he does get the 'right' play-call he is missing the play too often. He is most-effective when he has a rhythm...and the play-calling is providing none of that. How many times is he accused of 'holding the ball too long' when the play-call takes more than 2.5 seconds to develop? See the above video.

FK harped all pre-season on wanting to see consistency out of his players...don't be great and then blah...just let me know what I'm getting.

Perhaps he needs to heed his own advice.

Very disapointed in our offensive playcalling.
Mayfield along with Kitchens have regressed from last year.
The offensive line needs help.
We need a legit tight end who can catch and block.
Chubb is my favorite player. He reminds me a lot of Mike Pruitt.
Our defense did a nice job. Our strength by far.
Still too many penalties. When does that get fixed?
I am wondering if Freddie is in over his head.

Great post, and completely agree. Which is why I pin some of the blame on Dorsey as well. He had caught lightning in a bottle last year. Like you are saying, Freddy's best selling point was the continuity of something that was working. If you knew Freddy planned on scrapping what he had and starting over, not to mention do play calling himself while acting as head-coach, then what was the point of promoting him? At that point you're saying "We want him because he works with Baker well". Okay, then hire him as a as a QB coach or OC. Not as a rookie Head Coach (risky), looking to install a whole new offense for a 2nd-year QB (bad), while also serving the job as play-caller (bad).

I feel the best attribute you can have in a coach is when he can morph the offense into something that works best with the players he has. Kitchens did that beautifully last year. The worst kind of coaches are the ones that think they have a perfect system that's worked for them in the past and they just try to hammer their players into that system. And somehow that's what the coaching staff is doing now. "We want to run air-raid! ... it's not working? Well, keep running it until it does!" So frustrating, considering what we had working last year.

#6 is haunting us all.

We seemed to fix SOME of what folks have been clamoring for. We ran the ball well and we had a lot more quick release pass plays, pulled off a couple screens that worked well... the offense, at times, looked better.

Then there were the head scratchers... the draw on 4th and 9? 3 guys running 40 yards downfield on 3rd and 10 from your own goal line? empty backfield 4 times from the 4?

Between Monken, Freddie, and Baker, I'm not sure who gets what proportion of the blame for the things that aren't going well.... I guess Freddie for some of the playcalling, but Baker goes into panic if his first read isn't there and he either bails or stands there patting the ball until he's sacked.

Baker is great out of the pocket if he is moving laterally and toward the LOS.. if he's moving laterally and backwards, good things seldom happen.

I think Baker needs to run more (by "more" I mean "ever"). Multiple times the Rams DL left him a seam right up the middle by rushing hard up field on the edges and Baker steps forward, pauses, pats the ball, and forces passes downfield.. he could easily take off and run for 7 or 8 yards or more and slide and live to play another day. Their DL rushes like they have no fear of Baker running, the LBs cover and turn their back like they have no fear of Baker running... because Baker never runs... even when the opportunity is there.

Another thing about the D, Gurley was for the most part ineffective. He is a talented back.

I agree with that too. I was thinking the same during the game. Why isn't Baker scrambling more? He did it well last year. My guess is the staff told him not to run it. It's not like he would just stop doing it himself, right? On many of those "longer than 3 second" plays I was screaming at him to just run it. Instead he wants to do that bootleg out to the right and throw it out of bounds thing he's been doing all season now.

Agreed. Our O is a work in progress. Hopefully it will click sooner than later or our season will go south in a hurry.

I was at the game last night. Had an amazing experience and met several coaches. My neighbor is friends with Stump Mitchell so we got on field access during the pre game warmups.

It was great to see the whole field and actually observe different aspects of the game. I had great seats so I was really able to observe. I have a lot to say but don't have time to type a lot so here is the gist:

-Is Baker holding the ball too long and escaping too early? -Yes
-Is the OLine not keeping Baker clean and struggling at times? - Yes
-Is our offense a mess? - Yes

However, all of this is a by product of our scheme and play calling. Baker is looking like the Baker of last year when he has quick reads and has more than one quick option. On our sole TD drive, we ran quick tempo and had quick routes, Baker killed it. The problem is, most of the game we had our receivers running deep routes that took forever to develop. Baker sees this, feels the pocket collapsing, has no where to throw the ball, so he escapes the pocket. The Rams secondary was playing soft coverage all night and were giving us the short curls and outs, we just weren't calling them. Look at the video posted on the 3 and ten play from deep on our side of the field. If Landry stops and does a curl after 10-15 yards, its a completion all day. It was there all game!! Baker has no chance with that type of play calling. We were setting up play action beautifully by effectively running the ball, yet never called play action. It was infuriating!!

I hear all the Oline talk, but this line is plenty good to hold the pocket with better play calling that takes advantage of some quick slants, curls, and outs. That sets up the deep ball. With better play calling and better scheme the line would be fine.

I really like Freddie the person, and he says all the right things. I like his mentality and the way he looks at football and the role coaches play. The problem is, he is failing to execute on what he says. Freddie and our scheme is the problem right now. Plain and simple.

Our defense was amazing. Met Wilks and his family before the game. Real good dude. The defense was stout all night and played really well. There was some stuff there, like not protecting the middle of the field and letting Kupp eat us alive, but overall with the number of injuries we were dealing with, those boys were ready to play.

I might have more later, but that is my brain dump for now....

I brought this up. How many 3rd and shorts did we have where the DB were playing 7-8 yards off OBJ or Jarvis and just wouldn't throw a quick curl.....MADDENING!

This!

Here may be an idea:

Start off in an uptempo offense .. no huddle, no subs ... practice it all week and get comfortable in whatever throws/runs are easy and will get us on track.

Maybe we just need to start fast to find our rhythm and take off some pressure. I’ve had teams that need to start off pressing (even if it’s for 2 minutes) to get into the flow and have best results

Good post - with regard to the offense - whatever the reason or whoever has made the call .... the coaching is BAD. Forget the on field game day calls (as tragic as it's been) this offense completely voids our QB's strengths instead of playing to them. Add too that - while I think the OL play has been good enough, it's not a strength of the team and the long route development also puts them in a bad place, especially against stellar DL like the Rams have.

In the "keys to the game thread" I gave what I thought should be the plan for the Rams game.

Surprised that their plan was very close. I applaud the game plan under the circumstances.

We played a very good team right to the end with a chance to tie the game.

My thoughts on some of what is being discussed. On the fourth and 9. Once the players were on the line if the draw was called it was clear it would not work with the pre-snap defensive alignment. I don't recall the time outs left in the game. But a check out had to happen.

First and goal to go from the four. IMO I am running the ball four times. Unless on one we lose yardage.

A boatload of injuries. No matter how you slice and dice it few teams can handle that kind of injury situation.

Not ready to jump off the cliff. We play the Ravens next. I watched their game and some of the Steeler game. We are not alone with problems.

Guys who I would have liked to see play in this game were Njoku, Duke and Higgins. Njoku is a weapon in the red zone for jump balls. Duke was a good pass receiver and could have helped underneath in this game. Higgins is very good at finding space in zone coverage which would have helped.

Baker needs calm down.

For over three quarters the game plan was being well executed. Some things could have been done differently but we were in the game. So far this year when poise needed to be there Baker has shown little.

The obvious is the play at tackles. Not good with little depth. The game plan was made to address Donald. RPO one step throw. It was working but it can not be a offense staple. Way to limiting.

Going forward. We need to beat the Ravens. If we are going to compete in the North we need to beat them.

Freddie I thought had a good plan to win this game. But in game play calling was very suspect.

We have a tough schedule and need to be at 500 after eight games. Hopefully we will get better as the weeks pass. If we dig to deep a hole it will not be fun.

A lot has been covered so I'll just add a few observations.

Freddie's need to stick with slow-developing plays when it's clear the QB isn't getting much time is mind-boggling. A smart, experienced coach would immediately adapt to short quick throws, slants, outs, and crossing routes that would allow Baker to get rid of the ball quickly, and to get the ball in the hands of his playmakers. I cannot for the life of me figure out why he doesn't make these adjustments when confronted with aggressive D-lines. He doesn't strike me as a stupid man, but he's making stupid decisions.

We've seen a fair amount of zone coverage used to combat Freddie's scheme and confuse Baker. It's time they have a discussion and then work on finding soft spots within the zones. These are not insurmountable obstacles, yet for sixty minutes, they seem completely perplexed by what they are seeing in front of them. And it pisses me off.

Run Chubb for God's sake! I mean, WTF? This is not rocket science and the man is an excellent back. EXCELLENT! Use him! And stop running him out of the shotgun all the freaking time. He has to run over, stop, get the ball, then take off running again. It's stupid. Hand off from under center so our bruiser of a back can get a head of steam. Again, it's not rocket science.

Baker looks like he's afraid to take any kind of hit. He needs to grow a pair and stand in there once in a while. He's playing scared and everyone knows. It's not a good look.

I feel sorry for the D.

Oline: Needs work,, Lots of work.. As Collingsworth pointed out, if Baker got the ball out inside of 2 seconds, we were moving the ball.. If it took longer than that, Baker was toast.

Dline: Looked great at times, look average at other times, but still, nothing to worry about other than consistency.

Receivers: Again, if Baker doesn't have time to find them there is a problem. we sure could have used Njoku.

Chubb: This kid is the real deal

Secondary: What they showed yesterday is that they are well coached.. Good job. Worried about Ward. He gets hurt a lot.

Special Teams: I didn't see anything wrong.. The hammer did his job and so did Seibert..

Penalties: This just ticks me off. We'll probably never had a game with no penalties, but geez.. They are killing us. Gotta clean that up.

4th and 9: What the hell was that. Don't do that anymore.

j/c...

- The crowd at the game last night was great. Loud and everyone in their seats.

- Clay Matthews Ring of Honor ceremony was great.

- Hats off to Steve Wilks and the Browns defense. Especially, considering all the injuries.

- The offense is a complete mess. Completely disjointed.

- Baker missing/not seeing open receivers. He looks lost out there.

- Freddie appears completely overwhelmed. The scoreboard operator replayed the non-call pass interference on Seals-Jones seemingly as a way of begging Freddie to challenge that PI should have been called to no avail.

- A draw play on 4th and 9? I have not seen a play call this nonsensical since Pat Shurmur called a goal line handoff to TE Alex Smith whom had never taken a handoff in his life. Calls like this tell me Freddie is lost on the sidelines.

- 1st and goal at the 4 yard line and we are running empty sets? Absurd. Three timeouts and not a single run play for Chubb. OBJ not targeted either. Inexcusable.

- I'm already tired of the "I'll take all the blame for this." Instead, get it fixed.

- Baker needs to get much better and quickly.

- We have Baker, OBJ, Landry and Chubb and this offense is averaging 15.3 points per game through three games. Unacceptable.

- Freddie and Monkey need to identify the problem(s), streamline the offense and get it performing efficiently and to the teams strengths.

- Time to listen to Nathan Zegura and some Browns propaganda radio.

Someone needs to ask the league office just what actually constitutes a hold or penalty in our favor

I remember that play.

Collinsworth couldn't stop talking about how awesome Whitworth was.

Yeah. It was all game as usual. Very hard to watch the NFL these days.

I remember that play on Garrett, too ... that’s pretty blatant and out in the open too

"Being critical of myself, I do wish I would've given the ball to Nick [Chubb] one time.....some of these situations are new for me and I understand I'll get better from it, our team will get better from it" - Freddie Kitchens on those final 4 plays

A first and goal is a new thing for him?

j/c

I saw Freddie talking to the refs after the pass interference where the WR was forced out of bounds before the ball arrived. I'm not sure but I believe the play is dead after the encroachment penalty was called. Therefore no review of the play was allowed.

They interviewed the NBC officiating analyst (whichever one it is) right during that play and he said “If they challenge it, they’d just get an offsetting penalty ... basically, just a re-do of 2nd down”

It wasn't encroachment, it was illegal formation (but they signaled it like it was a false start), and that isn't a dead-play situation.

Your correct. And I believe Freddie said in the post game he didn't feel like it was worth the challenge.

I still don't think he knew what down it was after that, that's why he ran a draw on 4th.

j/c...

I think as the week progresses we will find this is not correct. Once the offense jumps, the play is dead.

That’s an interesting stat and graph ... and I also understand that we probably self scout and wanted to buck the trend a bit cuz we knew they’d key on us running left

If it was a false start yes, but it wasn't. It was a illegal formation if I remember. They let that play out and then call it.

Which is classic "over-thinking it". Doesn't Bill Belichick say something along the lines of, "We find what we do well and do it. We find what the other team does well and take it away." ... When you do something well and avoid it because you worry the other team will be expecting it, you're playing mind-games with yourself.

j/c...

I’d like to know how many of those were Aaron Donald lol ... it seemed like he “won” his matchup and was in the backfield at least 85% of the time

I think I read or heard he had 12 pressures?

Illegal Formation was the penalty called.

You can find the call here in the link on the play-by-play listing. It's on the drive for the Browns bolded as 'Downs'.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=401128125

That’s probably true, although he certainly affected more snaps of course.

My dad had a good point last night: It seems like he consistently affects the game more than Myles does. Even though Myles has had a good start, he does disappear at times

Myles needs to work on his counter moves, but I think its easier for a stud DT to impact the game more than a DE consistently

hmm 3 of the 4 6foot and below qbs

I'll throw in my .02, in case someone cares.

For me, the part that gets me fed up is that the refs routinely call these ticky-tack holding calls, and then something like this doesn't get called. I can live with one or the other, but the level of inconsistency we've hit is out of control.

.... I'm not saying this is why we lost or trying to derail the thread. That picture just touched a nerve.... and before Diam gets in here, it's not all on the refs. They bear part of the burden, but the rules around a couple of these calls are just a mess.

whats worse is he put his hands to the head/facemask like 3 times that play..nothing called

Yep, I noticed that too. Why didn't they say that should have been a penalty? It certainly should have.

I just watched the game. Man, those fans in the stadium were amped up. Not a bad game at all considering all our injuries... Chub ran well and our D played some really good ball.

I hope eventually the play calling and offense get it together.

One positive note.....

We are in sole possession of second pace in the AFC North and only one game out of being tied for first place.

My only post game thoughts are that this team is (so far) exactly what I said I said it would be in the season prediction thread. Decent, improved perhaps, but suffering from glaring Achilles heals in the form of a weak OL and inexperience in coaching. The coaching can get better and it seems Kitchens is open to change and adjustment. Just hope he can do it effectively before his time is up. The OL on the other hand is what it is. Unless we can scheme better to get the ball out quicker and commit to the run to wear down the defense earlier I don't think we'll see much improvement possible this season on that front. As we are right now we're not at all a playoff team. We'll lose to good teams due to stupid errors and bad strategy, beat bad teams on sheer talent and muddle about the middle.

The sky isn't falling.

I am pretty surprised that we even kept it a game with all of our injuries.

Right now, scheme and play calling do not match personnel.

That's fixable.

We have weapons on offense, we just need to learn how to use them.

More quick passes, more Chubb, more play action, and more RPO.

We'll figure it out. We have more to work with now than we've had in 20 years.

Pithy insight (that's not dirty!) that I think has some truth to it IMO. Baker flushed from pocket easily, and that is almost exclusively to the right. The OL is killing us, but BM camping with the rock doesn't help either. Where are the slants and digs? We had receivers running routes, never looking back until after the sack.Their defense looked crisper IMO.

Monken and Kitchens need to see what they can do. Rolling BM might help more. So would tackles who can move. Disgusted by this loss.

That's what happens when you are in the shotgun every play and aren't even trying to establish the run. The other guys pin their ears back and come after your QB. I think Baker was under center 5 times. Total.

We will lose to the Ravens, lose to the Niners then lose to the Seahawks. That makes us 1-5. The wheels are ready to come flying off. Kitchens better scrap this air-raid crap and go back to the offense we ran last year. Run the damn ball. Put Baker up under center more than 5 times a game. Either that or he won't survive the season. Bet on that.

Kitchens on Giving Up Play Calling: "It is not going to happen"

At Baltimore
At San Francisco
Seattle
Bye
at New England
At Denver


That’s very tough honestly

j/c...

From Jason Lloyd...

...So are the penalties, which are now piling up at an alarming rate. Despite Kitchens’ insistence throughout the preseason the Browns wouldn’t practice penalties, they have now piled up 35 penalties in three games. They’ve also had 11 more declined.

That means officials have already thrown 46 flags against them in three games. They’re already about halfway to the Tennessee Titans’ total of 99 flags for all of last year.

Put another way: The Browns are on pace for 245 flags against them (counting declined penalties). The leader in total flags last year, the Chiefs, had 173. Since nflpenalties.com began tracking total flags in 2009, no team has ended a season with more than 181 flags against them. The Browns are on pace to top that by Week 12.

8 penalties per game the last 2 games is on par with the league average. The first game was an aberration, in my opinion.

J/C .....

We have 3 starters on offense (Njoku, Higgins, and Hubbard) and 5 starters on defense out. (Kirksey and the entire secondary) That's a lot for any team to deal with. It really was a miracle that we were in the game at all.

That's how I'm choosing to look at it as well. We probably should have got destroyed, but we didn't give up. Sometimes the 2-min offense works, sometimes it doesn't. And it's not like we failed to cross the 50. Some better playcalling and we probably tie the game (and maybe go for two).

We saw what worked and what didn't. We'll carry that forward. We need to be prepared to hit Baltimore in the mouth. Knock them off their run game and keep our offense dynamic after establishing the run.

If we beat the Ravens, we're in the drivers seat.

As I watched that last play, I kept thinking to myself, "That's a play Higgins makes", and also thought of the fact that we missed Njoku as a red zone target. Ratley might become a good WR, but he missed almost all of training camp, and he's still trying to catch up.

People want to deny it and make excuses, but Baker is not playing well. It's infuriating how he bails out of a clean pocket and invites pressure.

A lot of mobile/running qbs get sacked more because they abandon the pocket too early, but Baker doesn't even run the ball. I'll never forget how Charlie Frye would do that and most folks blamed the OL. DA came in and all of a sudden our OL was good.

Baker is hurting the team right now. He is not the only problem. The scheme needs tweaked. The play calling is an issue. The lack of discipline is a problem. But, make no mistake about this........right now Baker is part of the problem. He is not playing well. And I wonder how long strong personality guys like OBJ and Landry are going to remain quiet about it?

dunno. if but i can see an explosion of those personalities if we only have 1 win going into the bye week.

and as much as it will suck......OBJ and Landry are running wide open on a consistent basis. so its not like they wouldnt have a point if they start going off.

And IF we had punched it in from the 5 at the end with a two point conversion for the win, we'd still be grousing about as much about all the team's deficiencies. How things change.

If they had punched it in, it might be a different discussion, but they didn't. And if they had, the discussions that the O looked like $#!% all night would still be valid. If they had punched it in, we could all say, "Hey, they got one right!" But they didn't. No, instead, they butchered a golden opportunity. Again.

Indeed. I posted a screen of the play he immediately rolled out. He could have walked in. Last year he would take off and pick up yards with his legs and it helped. He’s petrified to step up or take off. Atleast if you run you can give yourself up. He’s going to take bigger hits running into sacks. And he always bails out to the right..always.. you can use that for a huge advantage as a defense

If you think he could have "walked in" you are sadly mistaken...

Nope still see the same lane. At MINIMUM, there’s room to step up and keep his eyes up

Not to mention he has 5 yards to move or run up till the line of scrimmage so one of those doubling obj would have to break off and defend giving obj both single coverage and inside position

The same play being mentioned (when Baker scrambled backwards)

When I watched the Cardinals game earlier, QB Kyler Murray kept doing the same (I think he was sacked 9 times)...and they noted a rookie mistake is to run backwards, and it's too easy on the defense (they just chase)...and pins your OT's into looking bad (as thats where they drive their opponent to) Looks like Baker didn't get the memo as well.

He could and should have stepped up in the pocket. But there's no way he could have "walked" into the endzone. Very very slim chance he'd make it running, either. It just wasn't there.

walked is just hyperbole for the fact it was an easy play but I think If he steps up, or tries to run it the chance to score there goes up exponentially. And with a well timed pump who knows it could get in

Can't blame him. Control your own destiny. He witnessed first hand how it went bad when his predecessor let someone else call the offense.

I blame him. Part of leading a team is putting the right people in place to delegate responsibility to. If he doesnt trust Monken to call the plays then Monken needs to be replaced with someone he does trust.

Yeah, the offense was GREAT when Hue was calling the plays... lmao Kitchens wants to call the plays and run the air-raid? Great. When we are 1-5 at the bye and looking at the Patriots the next game I wonder if he will survive? Because I can see the Haslams wanting to pull the plug. You think we will beat any of the upcoming teams playing like this? We could very easily be 1-6 before we play Denver and that's IN Denver so who knows what could happen... This season is about to get REALLY ugly if our HC doesn't get his stuff together. I don't care what he does, but he better do SOMETHING and FAST! Or it's his ass.

I don't know.

Everything else with this team seems decent.

I really like our Defensive Coordinator. Even more-so, I like our Special Teams Coach. I mean, our special teams is so much better than these Amos Jones garbage we've seen. At this point, i prefer the guy over Chris "Teflon" Tabor.

While i'm dissapointed in what i've seen of Freddie so far, firing him would be a major setback.


Freddie needs to get his house (the offense) in order. No matter what, i don't think 1-5 will see the end of him. What other option do we have? We fire him and who takes over the offense? Ryan Finley (his protege?). James Campen, Adam Henry, and Stump Mitchell all have been long-time position coaches. Todd Monken is already OC, and he could be part of the problem.


So, yeah. If this continues, end of the season, we evaluate. But i'd rather give Freddie every chance to figure out what he's doing, rather than losing our DC and Special Teams Coach and starting over again.



So you might see me complaining about Freddie this whole season (if nothing changes), but i certainly won't be calling for his head

Did you ever look into a QB drop from the shotgun? I know you believe that the QB never takes a drop from a shotgun snap ...... but maybe, just maybe, you were incorrect there. (hint: You were)

Look, in order for Baker to have run on that play, it almost would have had to have been a called QB run. (catch the snap and go) He took the snap, and took a 3 step drop, as the play called for. By that point, (2 seconds) there was no running area anywhere.

Baker took the snap just as the clock was at 33. The rush got to him at 31.


You can watch the video here, instead of posting a static image that is misleading at best.

(380) Rams vs. Browns Week 3 Highlights | NFL 2019 - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFmSHjhLMFw

The final play is, shockingly, at the end of the video.

Even early on we read that were problems with the offensive install. This goes back to mini camps. It seems there are still problems. There is still a disconnect.

I don't know exactly what it is, it's probably a combination of things.

The D played well enough to win that game. The O can't get it going. I am a fan of Freddie, but those 4 passes at the end had and have me shaking my head.

hint.. I wasn’t wrong. Plenty of analysts broke that play down and saw the same thing. Most you should ever see a qb drop from gun is 3 steps which should. Almost instant. Baker was wrong, made wrong read and wrong decision. Keep making excuses for him and his bad play.

I would never have discussed this particular play because it is not a big deal, but you are really harping on it and you keep saying that lead is wrong.

The play and the Daniel Jones play were both highlighted on an ESPN morning show and guys who actually played or coached in the NFL said that Baker lacked awareness on that play and how Jones made a better read. And yes, they did show the plays rather than just a still shot.

I'm not saying this in a mean way, but you might want to let this particular argument fade away...

my biggest fear was 1-6 and I am pretty sure I was the only one really saying it.


I think Freddie is in over his head and needs to turn over the play-calling duties. He needs to trust the people he hired to call the offense. Once that happens, we will probably start winning more games

or ... we get rid of this trash offense we have been running we will win more games. It was never designed with Baker and the players we have on the team in mind. It was designed based on what the coach wanted.

I don't know about turning things over to Monken. I am not a fan of his offense and style. I'm wondering if he is part of the problem????????

This breakdown showing the issue on the final drive was basically all Baker. Though FK deserves some of the flak for some of the earlier stuff.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/09...ilm-review.html

I am not questioning his poor decision to not step up in the pocket, but there is no way Baker can pull off the same play that Daniel Jones did hours earlier.

Baker should have stepped up all day long. Rolling out right was death. But he would have never made it to the endzone had he decided to run. A lot factors not being considered when people say he could have scored.

Punch, what you just said is crucial. For all of the woe is me wailing and gnashing of teeth, we beat Baltimore sunday and we lead our division. I watched a little of their game Sunday and we can beat them.

After 2 games I too was saying 1-6 is a real possibility. There's too much talent on offense for us to be playing the way we are. Our D and ST seem to be fine. There are probably some coaches that would love to get their hands on our O with all the talent we have and we still have Hunt and Calloway waiting to come back. Waste of talent in the 1st 3 games. No way we should be playing as bad as we are on O.

We have the better team, we just need to translate the talent from the locker room to the field.

If we get outcoached (which is a high possibility) we will lose.

If baker struggles, we will lose.

I think our defense is MADE to stop their offense - lets hope we get some guys back so its not a taller order than it should be.

You know, we can look at all the negatives and be all gloom and doom. But you know what. we took the reigning NFC Champs to the wire. A team many say are going to be in the Super Bowl. And we did it with a banged up D and an Offense that is still coming together.

I don't see Baker so much as confused as much as I see him as having no confidence in his OLine. I see his timing with Odell improving. Soon we will have Callaway returning and that may give us a boost with a deep threat. Hunt will will return and give us a nice bump for the run in the second half.

I think Freddie needs to get back to some of the things that made us successful last year. Remember, he is still learning as well...He was an OCoordinator for only half a year. And we can see that he can make adjustments. We wanted to get the ball out of Baker's hand quicker and he made the rpo packages to do that this week. Now he has to trust that a little more, help his OLine....I think we need to do less 11 personnel. And get back to more 2 tightend packages. even with Njoku out.

I personally was encouraged by this game instead of concerned after the Jets game. Still much to work on...And I can see them working on it. But I have always felt that next year was the real Super Bowl Run not this year. JMO

With the amount of talent we have, us losing is simply a matter of 1 of 2 things (or both):

1 - being out-coached.
2 - failing to execute.

No excuses for either.

Actually, you were wrong. You stated that a QB does not drop from a shotgun snap. That is wrong.

You then implied that once Baker set up, there was a gaping hole for him to run into. That was also wrong, as shown in the video. Did you even watch the video, or are you content to use a picture out of context?

1.NFL Officials: Hey, Myles, we want you to instantly stop and levitate after sprinting towards and making contact with the QB while we let offensive lineman try to twist your head off. Sound good?

2. Apparently, the everyone go deep and we'll chuck it up to Mike Evans offense only works if you have Mike Evans. Who'd have guessed that?

3. I'd like to see us run routes that give DBs the potential of running into each other. Natural picks, rather than the hey WR go block that guy but pretend you're not. Slants and drags.

4a. Where is the creativity we saw last year? It almost makes me want to bring back Hue (if he was just shut away in a room designing plays, I'd be all for it)

4b. Our goal line offense is abominable. I'd like to see us run a pistol set where we motion Landry into the backfield beside Baker with Chubb behind. Have OBJ running a slant from the right. Sneak Landry into the flat where OBJ was. Run an RPO with an attached TE on the left going up the field to get behind the LB if he plays the run hard. If the LB sits back let Chubb ram it down their throats between Robinson and Bitonio with a pulling Tretter joining the mashup.

5. The D played admirably. With only 2 of our regular CBs playing it's no surprise their 3rd stud WR had a field day on our backup safeties.

6. I love Ogunjobi, but I'd like to see Larry go to the bull rush more. It appears to me He's been trying to win with quickness by jumping to the outside a bit too frequently and that is opening up running lanes inside.

My $0.02..

Is Baker hurting the team. Yes, but I don't think its because he's actually regressed. I watch him and his body language and he strikes me as a guy who's trying to execute a play call that he trusts will work and will be there because he trusts Freddie... but instinctively is realizing that it's crap, even if he hasn't consciously acknowledged that fact.

That 3rd and 10 play near our own end zone where all the WR's just ran a go route has been mentioned many times already. That's not the only time that the route design was terrible. IIRC it was in the 3rd, maybe 4th quarter. Baker starts running to his right and 3 WRs were between 15 and 25 yrds down field, ALL faking a step in and running an Out.

In man coverage.

So, even if he had a clean pocket, Baker is expected to hit 1 target in a 15yrd radius occupied by at least 6 people half of whom you don't want the ball to go to?

I understand that on occasion it might be a good call to flood a zone with receivers, but you have to set that up. That 3rd and 10 play could have worked if Baker drops back and let's it rip in a 1 on 1 situation. But you can't create a 1 on 1 when you have 3 WRs running practically side by side!

The offensive adjustments were easy. Switch to quick hitting stuff... you have the talent. Trouble handling the Dline pressure and want to go for a longer developing play? How about a boot leg or roll out?

I'm just frustrated because we're wasting so much talent. I know, Bakers in in 2nd year, Freddie's a rookie HC... but I'm tired of that excuse. And at this point that's what it is. I'm way past the whole "needing a chip on his shoulder" crapola. A chip on your shoulder doesn't win games. Perfecting your craft for the sake of perfecting your craft does. If Freddie requires a learning curve, he shouldn't have been given the job. He's been in the league long enough to see how it works. He was supposed to be more than Bakers BFF. He was supposed to be one of the new innovative breed of HC's.

I'm not going to call for him to be fired (unless we're holding at 1 win come the Bye) but he has yet to make a case for me to refute anyone who does call for him to go

But if they execute the same play from behind center Baker can immediately assess if that was an option as he starts to drop back. With that same look but inside 10 yards, I think he's got it.

Excellent Breakdown Video.... The plays WERE there to be made if executed as designed !
Restores my faith in Freddie somewhat and less so for Baker. Im sure the pressure was causing some too quick decisions by him but I have no doubt he will clean this up quick.

I think that we should have the QB under center far more often than we have thus far. I also see no sense in not having run at least once or twice from that close to the end zone. Time really wasn't a factor. IIRC, we went to our doom with 2 TO still in our pocket. Also, Baker has a very good ball fake. Why we didn't run play action on one of those 4 plays is beyond me. If we had a run option on that final play, handing it off to Chubb sure seems like a better option than whet we actually ran.

Classic Cleveland Browns talk... Everybody arguing over whether or not Baker could have scored, if he scrapped the play and ran the ball -- after our coach called four consecutive pass plays from inside the five.

I was going to wait til after I watched the game film, I drove 9+ hours, each way, to watch the game live (yes, I'm bitter). I'm not sure when I'll watch the tape, so I'll be brief.

Our defense played well enough to win the game. Which is the part that has me pulling my hair out (not really, I'm bald) when reading here.

It is NOT okay, in my opinion, to look back and say "oh well, we weren't really supposed to win this game anyway". Drives me bonkers. We SHOULD have won this game. You only get 16 of these... We got sucker-punched in one and gave another one away. Not okay at all.

I was convinced Freddie Kitchens thought is was third down. He got confused processing everything: possible challenge, how the penalties would offset, etc... his brain didn't "dot all the i's" when they declined the penalty on second down... I was clinging to this for the last two days. I would much rather him be confused than flat-out dumb. How do you explain a coach that refuses to run the ball one single time from inside the five? How does the same coach run the ball on 4th and 9??? Wow. At any moment we'll zoom out and realize we're all characters in the Twilight Zone.

I've been trying to think of a scenario where I would have an empty backfield on 1st down, inside the five. All I've got: up by 21 points or more against a team you hate... But not after the 3rd quarter or someone may be intentionally injured. You're the opposing DC -- is there a formation you would rather see?? Nope. Arrogant and DUMB.

Game ball actually goes to Coach Wilks. Faced with adversity, catastrophic injury and one of the most prolific offenses in the NFL, he executed a great game-plan and gave his players a chance to win. Too bad it was all for naught.

Lastly, now that there is a three game "sample size", X's and O's aside... Second half of last season: I watched opposing defenses on their heels 75% of the time. This season? I feel like they know the plays before they're called 75% of the time.

Big game next week - better figure things out in a hurry.

Well yeah, when you go empty backfield 75% of the time, it certainly narrows down the options to pick from ...

Last I’m saying on it. Just about everyone except you made the same conclusion I did. I even posted a link to the video breakdowns. I get you don’t understand or don’t want to even consider Baker isn’t a HOF qb already. But a lot more people that do this for a living have all said the same thing. So keep up whatever crusade you’re on. Not worth my time

I want you to watch this weekend's games, and tell me how many time a a QB in shotgun does not take a drop from the catch spot.

Make sure to make note of the game and time, so I can go look.

Chubb had 23 carries for 96 yards and I think around 30 in receiving yards.

I think a majority of Browns fans are on the same page....

We are close. Defense & Special Teams are much improved from a year ago.

Clearly there are issues on the offensive side of the ball. I think we are all aware that we need more play action. We should definitely line up under center much more than we are.

I do believe Baker's confidence is taking a hit weekly. He should be OK, but I believe the coaches should help him out.

I think the O-line has been serviceable, but not as consistent as Baker needs. I think some key adjustments on the offensive side of the ball would help the line tremendously.

Enough of this thread!!

A couple of those are more obvious than others.

The 4th down play, I will admit that when I saw them at the LOS, I thought that if the DL didn't stunt to the inside that the lane up the middle was going to part like the red sea and it did...

While you can make the case that somebody was (or was about to be) more open than where Baker threw the ball.. the fact remains that we had first and goal from the 4 with all 3 timeouts... and we went 4 wide and threw it into the endzone on every play. So I will still maintain that some of that lack of creativity has to go to Freddie.. We walked off the field with 2 timeouts still in the bag..

See, you take first or second down and run the ball.. let's say you don't score, you only get 2 yards.. well now you have 2nd or 3rd and goal from the 2, where the defense still has to respect the possibility of the run because we STILL have timeouts left... suddenly play action freezes a LB and a guy is actually WIDE open... we took all of those options off the table and went empty backfield every play... we voluntarily made ourselves one dimensional... with a QB who, for some reasons, refuses to run...

Facts DC, Facts

I listened to the game last night and listened to the call ins after. Then I read some posts on social media. I was pissed and thinking the offense was horrible and play calling was horrible.

Then I got home today and watched the game with no emotion knowing we lost. I have to say that watching I saw a different story. Except for not running on the last series, I saw no problem with the play calls. I saw a very good Rams defense providing excellent coverage and a relentless pass rush. I did see Baker bail the pocket, but in my opinion, only once did he really have a chance to step up. Chubb was a beast. IMO, the offense looked pretty good most of the game, but the pass game was hurt more by the Tams defense than our bad play calling or bad QB play.

The defense played a great game against a great offense. If Carrie could have kept up with Kupp, the game would have been different. I believe if the starting DBs were playing, it would have been a different story.

In the end, I was impressed with the play of the Browns. The Rams are a superior team, and the Browns hung with them until the end. The last series was hard to take, and I too was pissed they didn't run once, but IMO the Rams defense just was better on that series.

If the defense plays like this next week I see a win. I have to believe the Rams defense is better than Baltimores, and I think we will have better success.

Thanks for the synopsis ... i often find that letting a few days pass and re-watching the film provides different perspectives.

The Rams were a big measuring stick, I think they played with them the whole game. This team is young and the coaches are new. I was happy with the performance, not the result. The fact remains, that they gave themselves a chance. As this team grows together getting that chance could be all they need to beat teams like the Rams.

There was a ton to digest about that game. I gave myself an extra day to pour out my thoughts.

Real tough game for Freddie Kitchens and Baker Mayfield.

There was blame to both guys. I'm not bailing on them like others, but they looked unprepared at times. Mayfield was having trouble reading some of these zone coverages, he was leaving the pocket when there was time to not only fire a strike downfield, but room to step forward and do so.

Freddie Kitchens and his staff must fix that right away or this thing could spiral out of control REAL fast.

I thought the defense played really well considering the opponent and our injury report. They played well enough to win. I don't think there is a ton more there to break down.

We've all seen some absolutely horrible play calls over the last 20 years, but that 4th and 9 draw play is right up there. You just don't do that. You run a draw play on 3rd and long when you know you're going to go for it on 4th, and even that can be questionable given the circumstances.

Even with all that, they still had a chance to tie or even win in the last 30 seconds of the game. Believe me, I am sick of hearing that, because we've spent the last 2 decades always being on the losing end of battles like this. It was an ugly game. You have to be able to come out on the right side of those. We won an ugly won last week. The patriots win ugly games at times, every great team does. You're not going to look like world beaters every week. Sometimes you have to be able to do just enough to win, even when it isn't your night, and I don't think our guys have figured that out yet.

But man, sad to see fans just absolutely bailing on everything after 3 games. Pretty tough. We're scarred, I get it.

I keep hearing this and it is stated as if the guy was running away all night. Most of the times he bailed was because Donald or Brockers were pushing up the middle.

As for the draw, a draw is effective at times in those types of situations. It is done all the time. What ruined that play was a great play by Weddle. If Weddle didn't read and react Chubb had plenty of room in front of him.

I disagree w/your take and the former players and coaches who broke down the game on TV the next day highlighted that fact repeatedly.

I get why a lot of fans are defending Baker, but it bothers me that the OL is taking blame for the faults of others. They play for the Browns, too!

I think there is something to this. When we played the Jets, Booger McFarland talked about how Gregg Williams would show Baker one coverage look pre-snap and then switch the zone coverage post-snap. Williams is probably one guy who has some insight on what might confuse Baker.

I agree. There is a ton of negativity surrounding the Browns right now and I think a large part of it is due to inflated expectations. Of which, many of us are guilty.

I think folks fully expected the Browns to come out in week 1 and look like the Greatest Show on Turf V2.0 and that was unrealistic. Instead we came out and laid a big stinky turd right in the middle of the field against the Titans.. since then every single thing has been overly scrutinized and put in the most negative light. Don't get me wrong, we have been far from perfect.. from Freddie, to Baker, to the OL, to the penalties, etc.. it certainly hasn't been great and mistakes and poor play have happened...

But when you look at it with a few days of calm between the game and now.. since the Titans debacle, we beat the Jets by 20 (and everybody was upset about that) and took perhaps the best team in the NFC to the final play of the game... and we did both of those while making a multitude of correctable mistakes..

So I think this "the sky is falling" and "we'll never beat a good team" narrative that has developed is just about as premature and knee-jerk as the hype we built up in the first place.. we were a couple bonehead calls and just a little improvement out of Baker away from beating the Rams (or at the very least, taking them to OT)...

We will be ok.

See, I didn't read his comment like you did. Bitonio was left 1-1 with Donald for a good chunk of the game (at least, that's what radio was saying towards the end of the game). Simply pointing out that one of your olineman was tasked with (and failed a bit) in defending the (arguably) best football player out there right now is NOT an indictment of the oline, but is defending Baker and some of his fleeing the pocket.

Some are blaming the oline, and some are just defending Baker. There is a difference.

You can disagree, but it isn't just me saying that Baker left the pocket early. Hell, the morning shows were replaying the times he did so the next morning and it was a major point of discussion.

I'm not saying he sucks. I'm not saying he should be replaced. I'm saying that some other guys are taking too much heat for things that are not their fault. Baker needs to get rid of the ball quicker and stop abandoning clean pockets.

Btw---not asking you to agree w/me, but it's pretty clear in my eyes.

I wasn't defending anybody. My point is from what I heard on the radio and read on social media, after watching the game, he was under duress, and many times he had to bail. I know all the shows use the one clip where he clearly can step up, and act as if he was doing that the whole game. That's is not what I saw.

The problem was Donald and the Rams defense, not because he turned into Charlie Frye. Or the oline that the Oline stunk. That's all I'm saying.

It also appeared Kush handles Donald better than Bitonio.

We saw things much differently. That's fine.

You know, the term duress can be misleading. Now if you mean there was pressure coming to where he was actually standing at the moment defenders came in, yes. But there were far more times than one where he had ample opportunity to step up in the pocket.

So to say there was duress is accurate. To say he had to bail every time he was under duress is patently false.

To further illustrate my point, here is an article that contains items like Baker is leading the league in leaving clean pockets, the Browns OL is ranked 3rd overall in block win rate, and "According to Pro Football Focus, Mayfield is responsible for four sacks, six hurries and 10 pressures so far this season."

Here is the link: https://clutchpoints.com/cleveland-browns-the-offensive-line-isnt-the-problem-baker-mayfield-is/

I've not read a single opinion on this board - or anywhere else - that claims Baker is NOT leaving the pocket early at times...he is.

What IS being discussed is why? He doesn't have the pocket that he used to with Zeitler. Hubbard has regressed and was Baker's LT for half of game One...out of three played under this new scheme. Baker does not have the confidence in the OL that he had last year...add a scheme overhaul and you get a skiddish QB.

He wasn't skiddish last year as a rookie...he didn't learn to be skiddish all by his onesy in the off-season. He slid around in the pocket last year like a vet...now he bails. He simply doesn't trust the OL..and they've given him reason to NOT trust him along with reasons TO trust him. Say what you will about them being good-enough or not being good-enough...but they ARE absolutely inconsistent...as is Baker himself.

Leading the league after 3 games...the opener with Hubbard at LT and a backup G at RT...and a backup quality G at RG.

The 3rd game of the year with a backup G at RT, a backup quality G at RG and against the best DL in the league.

Stats can be misleading.

He wasn't one to bail last year...why is he bailing now?

I think it's not about the OL and his lack of confidence in them. I mean it's just my opinion but what it looks like to me is his hesitation in what he is seeing on the field. He just looks a little lost.

When he looks over the field it's like he doesn't quite know what he's seeing. And when he does have room to step up in the pocket, rather than do that, he roles out instead.

Even when he rolls out, last year he made some great throws and reads when doing that. That's not what I'm seeing from him this year.

I'm more inclined to believe that teams had film on him from last year to study. They have diagnosed what he does well and what his weaknesses were. As such, they're taking advantage of that.

But I don't place all of the blame for that on Baker. When calling plays his first read on those plays are a part of that play. He doesn't just pick and choose who that first read is. If our opponents understand his strengths and weaknesses, so should our own coaching staff.

As such, they should make his early reads short to intermediate passes. Exploit those holes in the zone. Because many stats have been posted have shown him holding the ball too long. That our OL does just fine for the most part when he does get rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less.

They also have shown he does poorly against zone coverage and is much better when facing man coverage. So running plays that are executed quicker and exploiting the soft spots in the zone may do wonders in his recognition and help bolster his confidence. I think that would go long way in helping work towards solving some of the problems.

Add that he could have stepped up and ran for a chunk rather than flush right, take the sack, or throw late. Make up Baker Mayfield's mind for him; shorten his list and get the ball out of his hands. His myopic scrambling is cutting our throats and killing drives.
Hoping The Hammer has a good Sunday.

Makes sense...Higgins and a reliable TE would go a long way for finding those soft spots in the zone as well.

If you think about it, Baker is missing 3 of his main targets from last year right now, in Higgins, Njoku, and Callaway, and had little preseason time this year with Landry and OBJ.

None of our TE on the active roster currently caught any passes from Baker last year. The only WR who caught passes from Baker are Landry and Higgins. (who has been injured) Ratley did catch 3 passes last year, but only 3.

So, right now, the only receivers that Baker had from last year to this year are Landry, Ratley, (3 catches) and Higgins. (injured) That's gotta be a shock to the system .. though hopefully one that will diminish as QB and receivers get to know one another better.

It looks to me like Baker is thinking too much.
Last year, there was the sanp then BAM! the pass is out. - if my memory is correct.
I rarely see that this year. It is more "Okay I think I should throw it there, oops too late. What now?"
Evidence is in that it is taking over 3 seconds for the pass to get out this year.
When he gets the ball out quickly good things happen - see the Beckham TC vs the Jets.

Agree
Seems we are trying to run the Monkin offense when it was the Kitchens offense that we had so much success with.
We need to go back to the plays and playcalling that we did last year.

He is leading the league in leaving "clean pockets." That's not an opinion.

I think he left the pocket last year, but we had more plays where he just had to read half the field and hit his first read. He's being asked to do more this year and is struggling a bit.

Hopefully, he gets better and the play calling and personnel packages are adjusted so we don't put him in situations that he isn't very good at right now.

Except none of his issues have anything to do with missing receivers.

Are guys dropping balls?

Are guys in the wrong place?

Are guys not getting open?

Baker is not good right now. It's not a mirage, it's not because of other players, and it's not because his #3 WR is out.

Time to stop the excuses and hope he can get it turned around.

I think d coordinators got his number. This is when will find out if he is as good as we thought. If he keeps struggling reading these zone defenses, we have a problem. Every team is going to play defense the same until he proves he can deal with it.

Bingo.

My concern is how defiant he is. His presser today was disturbing to me. He's becoming hard to like. He got nasty with reporters again, trashed Rex Ryan (it's now the top byline on ESPN and will be all over the airwaves tomorrow), he never fully owns anything as he keeps saying everyone needs to do their jobs, and just really demonstrates he has not been humbled by the first three games.

I just don't know what happened between last year and this year. This is so Browns...to have everything go to a complete 180 versus where you thought they were trending.

I know this sounds odd, and I would really like to discuss it in the PFF because this forum will die soon......but, I almost think that the best thing for Baker is if he struggles a bit this year.

He was struggling a bit under Haley and then lit it up under Freddie last year. He received so many accolades, endorsements, attention, and praise. He took time away from football. Everything came so easy for him.

I think he is a great competitor, and that if he struggles this year, he will work a lot harder next off-season to improve in certain areas.

If I were advising Baker, I would ask him to hire a qb coach to work on some mechanics, especially his drops and his lead foot when throwing, but mostly, to get in there and break down every throw he made this year and then watch other qbs who played well against the same defenses that gave him trouble. I would encourage him to predict what the safety will do before the play begins based on the offensive set. Identify the coverage before it occurs and then again post-snap.

I think he could still "get away from football" for a bit. I think it would be dumb to work almost all day at the game. But dawg, take a couple of weeks off and then spend maybe 2-3 hours a day perfecting your craft. 2-3 hours out of 24. Not too bad. You can learn while still having time to enjoy and unwind.

We could argue that marriage changes a man

jc

I wonder if Bakers skittishness is coming from an internal pressure that keeps telling him that he needs to remain healthy bc our season really hinges on him/his ability/his performance.....if he plays too careless early, it would put the entire season in jeopardy...

I dont know about all that, but I'm sure he feels tremendous pressure due to all the hype.

Good advice Vers.

I'm a little confused here...I did not say that his leaving 'clean pockets' is an opinion. I posted that Game 1 was a train wreck with Robinson/Hubbard/Mcray pretending to play T or sitting in the locker room when Ironman would have left that pocket early. Game 2 was a little better...Game 3 had essentially a backup at RG & RT and A Donald on the other side of the ball. I'd leave the pocket early too.

Baker is bailing too early at times...but not enough to make it THE glaring issue...he's holding the ball too long at times and then you see that play from our own 12 yard line where everyone was running long routes except for the one guy who was short of the 1st down marker. In that instance, we don't know what he saw or didn't see...or when...but any/all the options weren't going to get the job done. His choice? Run or wait until someone breaks open...requiring him to hold the ball too long.

That said...there ARE instances where he held the ball too long when he had other options...he has left clean pockets and dealt with some weak pass protection...he has thrown to the "wrong" option and his footwork has been 'off' leading to some uncharacteristically inaccurate throws. He's also made numerous throws that demonstrate what we saw the last half of last year...plus throws, tight windows, anticipation, etc.

There are a lot of factors in play and until we do what you said above - now in italics - I don't think we will be ABLE to improve on the other factors in play.

I'm not sure anyone is claiming that we should blame the major problem is him leaving the pocket too early. I actually believe you hit the target by saying there are a lot of factors at play. But I think him leaving the pocket early makes people wonder if it isn't a symptom of something deeper.

I mean why would a QB roll out when the option is certainly available to step up in the pocket? What is going on in his head that is causing this? It brings into question his processing and how he deals with the information he is seeing on the field.

While leaving the pocket early isn't a huge deal in isolation, it may be a symptom of a much larger issue here.

Agreed. He is almost certainly struggling at reading post-snap coverages. There have been several people who were in the NFL saying that that is the case. Rex Ryan's claim of Baker being a one-read qb is an example of that. It's a concern.

I read what baker said in response to Ryan. If that is your idea of “trashing” then you live in a fragile flower of a world. Maybe you think it is one of those goofy “micro aggressions” we read about.

Take this for what it's worth, mostly here-say so the validity is certainly questionable but:

On one of the radio talk shows yesterday, the host (don't know who) said he had a contact who had a contact within the Browns organization who told him (see the here-say) that the Browns were not happy with the play at RG and had real concerns about that position.

I haven't been able to watch a lot of the Browns so far this year. But I have not seen a lot of issues at RG. Reading this forum, it sounds like tackle has been a bigger issue. However...If this above RG issues/concerns is true, this could explain the reluctance to step up in the pocket.

For emphasis, I have no idea about the validity of the RG assertion. I am just presenting it as a discussion point.

How about this...win some games and then talk?

I’m basically to this point too ... we just have to win some games here

Speaking of audibles, did anyone else notice Baker calling our "Rumspringa" to audible into a run play?

... and here I thought that play couldn't get any more ridiculous.

I definitely heard this and questioned myself if that was what he was really saying. Maybe we have some Amish guys on the team.

Almost certainly wasn't an audible.