DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Will Mayfield work head enough to be great?

JC to fix the ridiculous thread title ... its driving me nuts as is.

So, honest question, what should Baker do moving forward?

Well, its a jointed effort between he and the coaching staff. We need to adjust to teams trying to zone him to death and distract his vision due to his height. If it were me given our personnel, I really wish we’d take a look at what Shanahan did here with Hoyer in 2014 or whatever ... use misdirections, quick hitters, zone blocking to get Chubb going. In other words: don’t make the QB do too much. Make him a game manager right now

I am not an expert, lamp. I probably know the game more than most of the folks on this board, but again, I am not an expert.

Regarding Baker:

If I were the Browns:

--I would put a gag order on him. Shut the hell up about coaches, the Daniel Jones, the Texas QB, the analysts, etc. It's not that I would disagree w/everything he is saying, but when you talk crap, you are going to get crap when you don't play well. Marcus Spears had a good point today. He said that Daniel Jones hasn't played well the last two weeks, but people let it slide because he doesn't run his mouth. Whereas, Baker is constantly trashing people, so when he isn't playing well, folks will put it back in his face.

--Stop the sense of entitlement and ask him to put more time in during the off-season.

If I were advising Baker:

--Work w/a QB coach. His mechanics break down when pressured. Don't call them "broom sweepers," instead try and learn from a guy who knows how to "teach."

--Break down film daily. Watch your game tapes where you struggled. Watch tapes of QBs who succeeded against the same D's and same looks. Chart the differences in decisions.

--Watch games of other defenses you will be facing this upcoming season, and pause the video right at the snap and write down your first read, your second read, third read, etc.........and where the coverage will be for each read. This is CRITICAL!

--Watch a ton of tape and try to discover "tendencies." Drew Brees is the best in the business at this. He knows what you are doing [most of the time] based on down and distance, personnel groupings, alignments, etc

--With your QB coach, try and simulate moving in the pocket to find throwing lanes rather than trying to throw over the top of rushers or scrambling to the right to find lanes. Again, Brees is the master of this. Slide w/in the pocket, don't run out of the pocket.

--Hell, watch a ton of tape on what Drew Brees does. Reach out to him. Pick his brain.

It's up to Baker. You wanna be great or do you wanna be rich and popular?

Good points Vers.

I agree with talking to Baker about his media profile. Tell him to focus on prep and let your play do your talking.

I would presume our QB coach should be working with him on his mechanics, although my understanding is that in-season, that is difficult to work on.

And I agree about reaching out to other QBs, heck I was even thinking that if I was Freddie, I would be reaching out to other coaches, even Nick Saban, who Freddie is pretty tight with.

I don't expect all this to be fixed overnight, but I want to see progress each week.

Luckily, football is entertainment to me, it has little effect on my life once that final whistle blows. I don't walk around in depression for days like others, and I surely don't talk BS to other fans when we win (ala Patriots, Pittsburgh, Eagles fans I know ).

I'm no coach, so I don't know how to fix it, but I do know it was working last year. I'd like to believe the Baltimore team is the team we have, and the 49ers team is the team when their egos get too big.

J/c

In terms of the team yo-yo-ing and having our egos get too big ... it’s starting to become a trend, which is not good. All offseason we had an inflated self view, and we laid an egg against Tennessee ... then we beat the Jets .... then we laid an egg offensively against the Rams ... then we played dominant against Baltimore ... then laid an even bigger egg against the Niners.

That’s the sign of an immature, leaderless team. We aren’t ready yet for the lights. And we’d better hope it’s because of lack of time to gel and not our egos

j/c:

I like Sharp Analytics. Here is a link to Baker's Advanced and Directional Passing Logs.

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/game-log---qbs.html

I wasn't challenging Swish on his statement, for the record. I was adding to it.

And imagine having the mindset that a HC cannot have an influence on the QB and his maturation/growth process simply because he has a defensive pedigree. That's like saying Belichek didn't influence Brady's growth and maturation towards being arguably the best QB ever because he was primarily a defensive guru.

Or in a more recent example and related to Swish's example, John Harbaugh not having an influence on Jackson clear postive progression as a QB because Harbaugh was primarily a ST coach his career.

Goodness, the things people will say.

Okay, so what makes McDermott a better QB coach than Freddie?

I really don't know who is a better QB coach, but I am questioning how you know McDermott is better at it than Freddie?

I’m just going to jump in quickly ... McDermott is one of my favorite coaches overall (maybe not in terms of just QB play) ... his teams are disciplined and his defenses are stout. Low number of penalties, they run the ball effectively, good time of possession, rarely get blown out (which is an underrated quality IMO). He seems to utilize his offensive talent to the max.

turning this back towards baker.. What if he is a hard worker (and by all accounts he is) and hes just at his ceiling. Alot of hard working guys never make it because the talent between the ears isn't there. I think the biggest problem with Baker is Lindley. He's barely older than Baker, so theres probably more hey I'm your buddy than actual coaching..and he's not an experienced guy either. Baker is missing a guy like Zampese who's been around quite a bit and has success with QB's, we need a Zampese, Kubiak, Knapp kind of coach. Coach that has experience breaking plays down and cutting tape.

I've read this exact thing is an issue.

Nothing in my past two posts was trying to compare McDermott to Kitchens. If anything it was a comparison between McDermott and Hue and how bad of a decision that was to go with Hue.

You're trying to manufacture a position I have not taken. Do better.

For clarification: Looking back at my original post, it came off as a comparison between Kitchen and McDermott because I typed "has". It should have been "had". My comp was between those Hue and McD (think that is pretty obvious considering I referened the original decision to go with Hue over McD, not Kitchens and McD. I have no idea how Kitchens will end up but it is not looking good at the moment.

I am not making excuses for Baker, I am not. I agree with you - he needs to be better and looks like a shell of what we saw last year.

I think the oline has a lot to do with his play as he has no confidence in them. I think the gameplanning has had a lot to do with his play, with long developing routes, poor play calling (why were we going 5 wide again on the goaline?), and I think BAKER has a lot to do with it as well. Honestly, I think he looks a little out of shape if you ask me. His arms are not as defined as they were last year. I didn't notice it until they were showing the flashbacks of the planting of the flag. His arms are def not as ripped, and his stomach looks a little pudgy.

He needs to work on his pocket presence, throwing a check down, going through progressions, moving his eyes around, reading a def pre snap better, getting the ball DOWN (way too many high passes).

He also a KEY POINT you brought up is learn how to play without extra motivation. Winning the game should be enough. You don't need to be mad, you don't need to be p'd off at Hue to play good. Your future and your status in the league should be enough.

For the first time, I am getting worried about him. I think he can still be the guy, and until Monday I never questioned he wasn't. I am starting too.

I am not trying to manufacture anything. I read this in your earlier post:



I was just wondering how you knew that McDermott was a better qb coach than Freddie?

THIS.

Who is the leader of this team? Baker? IDK, he may still be a little too immature. Myles? Hes not vocal enough IMO. Jarvis? Hes too busy playing keeper to OBJ now. Honestly, who is our leader?

In my coaching experience, break throughs to the next level happen when a player is finally hitting a point of conflict in their game. They either work through it or they fold. The problem comes from how long it takes for an individual to break through that barrier. Some make it look terribly easy. Others make you want to just take them out to the back pasture and put them out of their own misery. And that's where we are right now with our Browns and Mayfield in particular.

He'll eventually break through whatever it is between his ears that is holding him back from the next level. He has the physical tools. What's eating him is in his own head. My best guess is he's just a bundle of joy to be around right now. I didn't expect him to have that moment of clarity when he was being trick or treated by the Niners.

A struggling quarterback will cost you games. We've just got to keep riding this weird and wonderful torpedo all the way to the end.

Cris Carter reacts to Trent Dilfer on Baker Mayfield's struggles: "He's trying to be a superstar"



i agree with this. Baker has got to get back to just being the QB. he's trying to be the hero when we just need to him to be the QB. Baker playing within the system? we always seem to dominate offensively.

Baker the hero? you get 8/22, 100 yards and 3 turnovers.

Bingo .. playing hero ball ... it’s like we’ve gotten away from the simple stuff that worked last year and have implemented a vertical passing attack that simply doesn’t align with our strengths

I want to add something else to this.

After Baker's play last year, I don't think we can look at this year and say he's reached his ceiling. He has the pedigree, background, and rookie year to show there is a ton of potential there. There are probably 5 to 6 things you can point to this year that are different than last year as to why he's playing bad. He's not a finished product by any stretch.

I implore the fanbase and organization to not give up on this kid. I implore the organization to figure out how to bring him along and develop him. We need to see this through. I grit my teeth when I read statements like "he's hit his ceiling" or "he better figure it out fast". No, he doesn't need to figure it out fast. The organization needs to figure out how to bring him along and let him grow into the position. Again, I'm begging the fanbase and organization to stand by this kid. Figure out what they need to do to right the ship. We are historically an unstable organization that moves on from FOs, coaches, and players too often and too early without seeing things through. We are a fanbase that wants change at the first sign of adversity. It's got to stop if we ever want to get this turned around.

We don't have to look any further than our own division for a great example. In Big Ben's first couple of years they protected him. They didn't ask him to do too much. He developed into the player he became. He didn't come into the league that way. He had a head start on Mayfield because he got drafted into a stable organization that understood these types of things, but we have to become that type of organization.

I think we all want the same thing...to see this team succeed on a consistent level. I think the only way we get there is digging in, supporting the guys we have, and not looking for quick fixes for everything. I get this is a message board and it's a nice place to vent and get out our frustrations but I get the sense that some already want to start over at coach and QB. That's not the answer, and I hope it's not even a consideration by the organization.

Interesting. Steve Young said the same thing about Baker trying to be Super Man before the game the other night. Also, last night, I brought up that Baker should try to study Drew Brees. So, I think some good points were made in that clip.

I will say that I disagreed w/a couple of things, but overall, it was pretty good.

I gotta read this post a couple more times to let it soak in, but I did want to say 1 thing.

Most, if not all, of those suggestions are long-term things. Long-term, as in things that he could do no earlier than the end of this season. I'm a very "first-things-first" kinda guy, so right now I'm more concerned about what he can do this week, and then next week.

1. Absolutely he should shut up. I get the argument that he's just responding to questions, etc. Still, just shut up. Just because some dumb reporter asked a dumb question doesn't give you carte blanche to react like a tool.

2. This is the part where coaching comes in. Freddie and Monken have to swallow their pride, shed a single tear for the offense they tried to install, and then go back to the basics that gave them success last year. At the very least, Monken should be thinking this... I mean, he's the one that's gonna be on the chopping block. We know how this works... there's gonna be a scapegoat for disappointments like this. Not saying it's right, just saying how it is. Monken's gotta know it's gonna be him. I digress. Coaches gotta dial it way back with Baker and offense. "You're failing miserably, dude... we're taking a bunch off your plate."

3. Put the cuffs on Mayfield in-game. Get him back to reading half of a field and getting the ball out of his hands. Until he gets himself under control, consequences if the improptu rollouts continue.

Other
Longer-term (Vers, you're going to hate this) we gotta find an oline upgrade or 2. No, it's not the oline's fault, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be better. That unit needs to be better in order for Mayfield to develop. I always looks at the Steelers. They had an amazing oline and run game for baby-Ben. They're going to have the same for the QB that comes after Ben. Kitchens is trying to skip a very important step in Baker's development.

Not-so-long-term
Freddie still needs to take a long look at certain parts of this offense. It's just one example, but we've still got WRs running into each other when running their routes. This is stupid. Not letting Baker off the hook, it's just not helping him. It's a basic thing that should be fixed.

Nice post.

Yeah, I am thinking long term. Baker is going to be our qb for a long time. At least I hope he is. He has great arm talent and great confidence in himself. I think he is an intelligent guy. Thus, I think he can do things to help improve his game.

I don't hate the OL part. I think they are okay, but I think we can upgrade it. I just don't want to make a stupid trade to do that. I would rather we draft one or maybe even get a guy in free agency. Keep the draft picks.

I think we can do some things schematically to help Baker this year. That is why I started the Offensive Scheme thread. I do think that Baker deviates from some of the schematic things after he gets harried. Bosa spoke about that after the game. But, I still wish we would bring in a FB and run some 21 or 22 personnel like we did last year.

One thing of note, I was reading a Personnel thing on NinersNation before Monday's game and referred to Sharp's stats about our personnel packages. They brought up that we did implement more 12 and 13 personnel, but we ran out of those packages almost all the time and threw very few passes. That is a tendency that DC's can pick-up on. As a playcaller, you want to make identifying tendencies as hard as possible.

I agree with you 100%. For most players this is usually how things go. However, Baker Mayfield isn't just "another player"

All other things aside,Baker Mayfield has physical limitations.The same ones that concerned me if we were interested in him coming out of the draft.


He is only 6ft tall

He isn't particularity "fast" on his feet.

His arm, while good enough for the NFL, isn't an elite arm by any stretch.

When you look at Mayfield, He doesn't really do any one thing particularity well.

He get chased down by 300 pound DL, he isn't a threat to run in the NFL like in college because he is just too slow. He has trouble seeing over his DL because of heigh issues. Only two QB in the last 25 years have been able to figure out throwing lanes under 6'2 and those two QB are Drew Brees and Russell Wilson. Brees is just a genius mentally when it comes to football, and Russell Wilson is on a whole other level athletically compared to Baker Mayfield.

At the end of the day, we are left with a 6ft QB who is slow and can't outrun anyone who likes to scramble, with a slightly above average arm. Could he succeed? sure, but the odds are against him big time.

If we look at his Combine Draft Scouting Profile we see:



This is what we are seeing this year, and a lot of this stuff is VERY HARD to correct even for a guy who is 6'4 with an elite arm.

Look I am willing to give Mayfield this year and next year to figure it out. However, if we have a Top 5 pick this year, which means our record was horrid, take another QB. If Mayfield works out we trade him if not we can develop him, either way we win. Mayfield hasn't solidified himself as the guy so you have to be looking at other options until that becomes clear.

I am not going to get on your case like others have/will, but Baker has a great arm. I also think it would be stupid to give up on him. We have a lot invested in the guy and he has talent. I think he can improve and we would be smart to give him every chance to succeed.

I agree with all of that. He had a terrible game and some people hate to see that pointed out, but that's no reason for people to say he can't or won't be a good QB. It's like the title of an old Clint Eastwood movie. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. We've seen all of that and we know the good is in there.

He had a crappy game. Terrible! That's a fact. Of course people such as yourself and others want to extrapolate that out to mean something far more than it is.

Why are you trying to make more out of it than that? I would love to be singing his praises about what a great game he had against the 49'ers. But that didn't happen. He stunk the joint up.

Some people can look at things on a game by game basis and leave it at that.

Then there are people like you who can't help but to read more into it than that.

I think Baker has a great QB in him. I just hope the coaching doesn't ruin him before he can develop into that great QB. Cleveland, where QB careers come to die.

I caught that show on the radio this morning. CC and Bart Scott really ripped our OL also....especially Robinson. They were brutal.

In this case that's not going to happen. In a post game thread the objective is to address "that game". Nothing more, nothing less.

Those who criticized Mayfield character...make sure you click the link to listen to video...


click for video


Richard Sherman: Baker Mayfield “definitely deserves an apology”


Posted by Mike Florio on October 9, 2019, 10:59 AM EDT

The next move in #HandshakeGate has happened.

49ers cornerback Richard Sherman, appearing Wednesday on The Pat McAfee Show, has expressed regret for the erroneous claim that Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield snubbed Sherman prior to the coin toss on Monday night. But the regret comes with a caveat.

“It’s definitely my bad,” Sherman told McAfee. “I never want anybody to deal with some sh-t that — I mean some some stuff — that they didn’t do. And so, you know, the questions that he’s gonna get and the annoying, nonsense questions about some stuff that happened in a game that’s already been done, you know, sure he’ll get an apology for that. I’ll probably reach out to him via text or social media to actually get ahold of him and talk to him in person, I mean on the phone. But, yeah, because that sucks. . . . But yeah, yeah. He definitely deserves an apology, and my bad on that.”

McAfee asked Sherman whether he would have worded things differently if he had a chance to redo the discussion with Mike Silver of NFL Media.

“I may have phrased it differently, but I meant what I said,” Sherman said. “I did feel the disrespect. . . . I felt disrepect and at the end of the day that’s all the story was, really. Like, people can say, ‘Oh my God, he shook your hand’ or ‘Oh my God you were wrong.’ You can say whatever you want. I don’t give a damn.”

But the truth continues to be that Sherman claimed Mayfield refused to shake Sherman’s hand, that Sherman doubled and tripled down on that contention after the initial videos that didn’t prove him wrong first emerged, and that Sherman only admitted that the handshake happened (and began deleting tweets to the contrary) once it was clear that the handshake did indeed occur.

And as it relates to actual or perceived disrespect, it’s just as easy to say that Sherman disrespected Mayfield. As Simms pointed out on PFT Live, Sherman didn’t seem to be all that enthused about interacting with Mayfield, either.

Regardless, Sherman apologized, as he should have. Whether NFL Media apologizes for posting those false claims without properly vetting them or seeking comment from Mayfield or the Browns and then failing to revise the story for roughly three hours after the truth emerged remains to be seen.

It also remains to be seen how Mayfield addresses the issue with reporters. He’s due to meet with reporters today.

And then there’s Sherman’s next media availability. He won’t want to be grilled on the subject, and if he gets asked a bunch of “annoying, nonsense questions” on a topic that he surely won’t want to discuss, he could get angry.

Maybe angry enough to threaten to ruin a reporter’s career.

Man, what a d-bag.

That's just wrong.

A total d-bag.

I understand trying to motivate teammates or whatever by playing up certain things, but to go publicly like that crossed the line. Plus, something as respectful as hand shaking is not right

Wow... an apology from Sherman. I feel really dumb for my own post.

Still doesn't change my looking forward to Mayfield dialing back being a tool in PCs and social media.

SO.....Sherman disrespected Mayield, disrespected the Browns, disrespected the 9'rs, disrespected his team mates, and disrespected the NFL.

Sounds like a classless college thing.