DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2019 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 13 Steelers 20 Post Game

Hubbard is a "real player"?

That's just the pure GENIUS of Freddie and his play calling. No worries. LMAO

I've come to the conclusion that John Dorsey is threatened by people with stronger personalities who know more than him. Ala Andy Reid, Bruce Arians, Gregg Williams. Dorsey doesn't like it when individuals know more than him. Someone who isn't just a yes man. This is also a parallel to Art Modell and Paul Brown.

There may not be blatant facts to back that up but I get that feeling.

According to Dorsey he is...

The GM is probably the biggest question mark for me.

He still seems to be a glorified scout with no real plan.

I have no idea what he's doing and I'm not sure he does either. I had hopes for him and I'm thankful he brought us our franchise quarterback. He at least got that pick correct as he did with Chubb. The rest? We'll see.

OBJ trade seems like a waste. Was a mistake trading for Randall. It's ashame we have a continuous mess to clean up. Not to mention he sounds like the one who insisted on making Kitchens the HC.

I hope I'm wrong but Dorsey hadnt done a lot to instill confidence he's the correct guy for the job. But as a fan I hold out hope.

Beckham - 6 Targets, 3 receptions for 29 yards

Chubb - 16 rushes for 58 yards.

Are we even trying? Why did we trade for Odell?

I am still on the Dorsey train.

He has brought a lot of talent to this team that we haven't had since the return.

I'm sure he didn't think he could rebuild us from an 0-16 team to a Superbowl contender in 2 years.

Even though us fans, and the media, wanted to believe it.

There's some holes on this team. I'm sure he will address it in the offseason.

I'm not sure why he would pick Freddie as a HC. I have to wonder if there was some backdoor non-public reason.

I'd guess Freddie was just supposed to be a one year stop gap, and we will have something better for next season.

At least, I have to hope that.

I haven't given up on Dorsey, but there are question marks.

He brought talent and he also has dismissed a lot of talent. Peppers, Nassib, Avery, Ogbah to name a few.

Instead of filling holes, he's made several lateral moves. Trading defensive linemen for different defensive linemen. I love OBJ, but did we really need him? Trading away competent safeties for other safeties.

We could have signed Richardson. Signed Burnett and our defense might have been just fine without trading away Peppers and Zeitler for OBJ and Vernon.

I feel like there's a lot of unnecessary moves. Moves for the sake of making moves.

Nothing seems to have direction.

I don’t see the talent dorsey has supposedly brought in. I see unused players overrated FA and draft picks that were reached or didn’t pan out. Dorsey is the problem with this franchise. He built exactly what we are seeing. He forced the team to hire kitchens against better judgement. So this is a result

Nassib talented?

I guess it depends if you think Chad Thomas, Chris Smith, and Bryan Cox are better or not. I would take Nassib.

J/c

The OBJ trade certainly hasn’t worked out like we’d hoped. I’m hoping an offseason to develop timing and chemistry will help, but we’ll see

"We don't run the ball enough"
so the answer is get Lincoln Riley,a pure spread coach who's running game consists solely of the QB.
all you guys whining and proposing dumb stuff after a loss has keep me entertained for years.

He brought talent and he also has dismissed a lot of talent. Peppers, Nassib, Avery, Ogbah to name a few.

Jamie Collins, Kevin Zeitler, Jason McCourty to name a few more.

He has also given out ridiculous contract to players as well. Hubbard, Carrie, and I'm still on record about Vice Grips baby....Let's GoOOOOOO!

Can of worms.

Oklahoma ranks 9th in the league this year with 260 yards rushing at 6.4 yards per rush.

They run the ball quite a lot there, regardless of its a combination of QB and RB.

Cleveland Browns Postgame Scribbles: Having a hard time liking this team

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...-this-team.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
PITTSBURGH - Scribbles in my notebook after the Browns lost to the Pittsburgh Steelers at Heinz Field on Sunday, 20-13:

1. During the bye week, coach Freddie Kitchens said the Browns weren’t a “team,” they were “a group.” I wrote they’re actually a group of individuals, and that was the case this week as they faced the Steelers.

2. The Browns assembled talent, but some of the pieces don’t seem to fit. Not all of the fault should be placed on Kitchens and his coaching staff. The front office has to take some of the blame. This is not fantasy football. It’s not simply a numbers game.

3. The loss to Pittsburgh showed how something remains amiss with the Browns in terms of having a heart and a single purpose. After the game, Pittsburgh coach Mike Tomlin said: “We were looking to strike a blow for team in these circumstances and stand up for the game of football.”

4. It was an emotional week for both teams. Seventeen days ago, the Browns beat the Steelers, 21-7, in Cleveland. That game was marred by the Myles Garrett-Mason Rudolph brawl, followed by major suspensions and millions of dollars in fines.

5. Before this game, I wrote how this could be a “defining moment" for Kitchens. I gave him some compliments for winning three in a row. He seemed to be learning on the job. Pittsburgh was the time and place to show that was correct.

6. I wrote the Kitchens column before he wore the “PITTSBURGH STARTED IT” T-shirt and before Damarious Randall was left back in Cleveland. Those were more signs of the team’s immaturity. Then it showed up on the field. After taking a 10-0 lead in the middle of the second quarter, they were outscored, 20-3, for the rest of the game.

7. Tomlin stressed how he didn’t want his players engaging in any of the off-field controversies: “We were about beating them today. That’s how you deal with that stuff. You beat them.”

8. About Kitchens’ T-shirt, Pittsburgh’s Ramon Foster told the media: “I’m glad Coach (Tomlin) doesn’t do anything like that.”

9. The T-shirt wasn’t why the Browns failed to deal with Pittsburgh’s pass rush. Baker Mayfield was sacked five times. He threw an interception. He lost a fumble. After starting 10-of-12 passing for 96 yards, he was 8-of-20 passing for 100 yards.

10. Pittsburgh found a way, especially in the second half, to make life miserable for Mayfield. The Steelers learned a few things from the 21-7 loss in Cleveland, and I’m not sure what the Browns learned.

11. The Browns have defeated Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore Ravens. They beat Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills. Those two teams have a combined record of 19-5 this season. But they also have lost to Denver’s Brandon Allen (making his first NFL start) and Pittsburgh’s Devlin “Duck” Hodges (an undrafted NFL rookie).

12. The Browns have some big names and Pro Bowlers. But they are 5-7, despite acting at times as if they are 9-3. It’s a group of underachievers. There’s a sense at least some members of the coaching staff are over-matched.

13. Kitchens talked about “learning experiences” after the game. He talked about “matching the intensity” of the Steelers for the entire game. My sense is he doesn’t know what to say about some of the problems facing the team.

14. Then there is Odell Beckham Jr. Once again, there was a discussion about him not getting the ball enough. Right there is a problem. When so much of the focus is on getting a receiver the ball, it’s an alarm bell. That’s especially true when I don’t think Beckham is a better receiver for this team than Jarvis Landry.

15. Keep in mind, I wrote “a better receiver for this team,” not who is the more physically talented. That’s Beckham. But Landry is tougher and more consistent. He caught six passes for 76 yards. Most of them were very difficult receptions as he battled a defender for the ball.

16. Kitchens on Beckham (three catches, 29 yards): “I tried to call plays that worked. I tried to call plays to get him open. I tried to call plays to move the ball.”

17. According to ESPN Stats: “Odell Beckham has now gone six straight games without reaching 100 receiving yards for the first time in his career.”

18. The Steelers are 7-5. They opened the season 0-3 and lost Pro Bowl QB Ben Roethlisberger for the year. Hodges is their No. 3 QB. They beat the Browns with several backups in key positions. They are in the wild card race despite their injuries and issues. I wish I could one day write something like that about the Browns.

19. That’s why I wrote, “This wasn’t a loss, it was a disaster.” So many things were in place for the Browns to win. They even began the game the right way, but as the new T-shirts being sold in Western Pennsylvania read: “PITTSBURGH FINISHED IT.”

20. There are a lot of players on the Browns worthy of respect and your cheers. Many of them play with character and dignity. But as a whole, they aren’t much of a team. Too many side issues, too little endurance to run the long, painful race that is an NFL season. That’s why I find them difficult to enjoy.

FINAL NOTE: According to ESPN stats, the Browns are the only NFL franchise without a four-game winning streak since 2010. They also have lost 16 in a row in Pittsburgh. Yes, fans, it’s been that bad.

Cleveland Browns: This wasn’t a loss, it was a disaster

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/cleveland-browns-this-wasnt-a-loss-it-was-a-disaster.html


By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
PITTSBURGH – I’m tired of writing stories like this, stories about how the Browns lost to the Steelers in Pittsburgh.

Only this one – Sunday’s 20-13 verdict at Heinz Field – is different.

This one is not the usual theme of Pittsburgh having the superior team.

The Steelers don’t. Not this time. Not this year.

But the Steelers have the better coaching staff. They have the more mature players. They have a team that is used to winning, even with undrafted rookie and former No. 3 QB Devlin “Duck” Hodges starting at quarterback.

And the biggest defensive play of the game?

An interception by former Browns cornerback Joe Haden with 1:06 left in the game. Haden was cut by the Browns before the 2017 season.

Browns fans, I don’t know how you endure this year after year. I really don’t.

I’d like to say that I feel sorry for you, but those words are so hollow.

You deserve better.

I’m not simply talking about a team that beats Pittsburgh.

I am talking about a team with more discipline, more maturity and a smarter coaching staff.

THIS IS RIDICULOUS

Starting safety Damarious Randall was left home because of a “coach’s decision.” The Browns never gave a reason, but one report was he missed practice.

“That’s between me and Damarious,” was all head coach Freddie Kitchens would say about it. Other reports said it was an attitude problem.

Regardless of the indiscretion, this was Steelers week.

It was a chance for the Browns to win a fourth consecutive game. It was an opportunity to be 3-0 in the division and good enough to keep thinking about a wild card playoff spot.

It was a time for the Browns players and coaches not to simply be on the same page, but in the same sentence. That’s not the case with this team, even though Kitchens insisted several times after the game: “We were ready to play.”

The Steelers connected on a couple of long passes. Would Randall have made a difference? Would he have played better than Sheldrick Redwine, making his first pro start?

No one knows.

But a veteran such as Randall is supposed to be there for the team in a game like this.

The Browns were already without Pro Bowl defensive end Myles Garrett. He is suspended at least for the rest of the season for his helmet-swinging role in the brawl. That was at the end of the Browns’ 21-7 victory over the Steelers on Nov. 14.

Two major defensive starters out... not because of injuries, but discipline issues.

LEADERSHIP ISSUES

I doubt it had an impact on the game, but it does point to the state of mind of Freddie Kitchens.

I’m talking about Kitchens wearing a “PITTSBURGH STARTED IT” T-shirt to a movie Friday night. The coach knows this is the age of social media. Someone was going to take his picture.

Kitchens explained his daughters bought him the shirt and wanted him to wear it when they went to the movie. He said, “I wore a coat.”

But when he posed for the picture with a fan, the coat was open and that led to another Browns embarrassment.

This is the same coach who spent all week telling the players to not think about the brawl with the Steelers, to concentrate on the next game.

I expect players to make mistakes like this, but not coaches who are paid millions of dollars per year.

“The T-shirt had nothing to do with this game," said Kitchens.

But it’s silly, needless actions such as this which reflect poorly on the rookie head coach.

WHAT HAPPENED?

Then you look at the game plan the Browns had for Pittsburgh... and what happened?

The Browns lost to a Steeler team without its star QB (Ben Roethlisbeger), best wide receiver (JuJu Smith-Schuster), top running back (James Conner) and Pro Bowl center Maurkice Pouncey (suspended).

The Browns were up 10-0 in the middle of the second quarter. The Steelers made some adjustments. Then the Browns just looked like a bunch of guys who couldn’t find their cellphone, staggering around feeling lost.

Baker Mayfield opened the game completing 10-of-12 passes.

After that, the Browns QB was 8-of-20 passing. He was sacked five times.

Kitchens simply gave up on the running game in the second half, only six carries.

The score was only 17-10 in the middle of the third quarter. There was no need to become hooked on passing, but Kitchens did. That played into the strength of the Steelers, who continually blitzed and sacked Mayfield.

PAINFUL ENDING

The Browns defense had Pittsburgh backed up to the Steeler 1-yard line with 5:35 left in the game. The score was 20-13.

Stop 'em, force 'em to punt. The game isn’t over.

Instead, the Steelers pounded the ball, chewing up four minutes and moving the ball out to the Pittsburgh 47-yard line. Then the Steelers punted, the Browns threw the interception.

Ball game.

“We are looking to strike a blow for team,” said Pittsburgh coach Mike Tomlin. “We wanted to show we could win without some key people. I’m proud of winning under the circumstances we were under."

Too bad the Browns couldn’t say the same thing about their team.

j/c:

For as much heat as Freddie is getting, and rightfully so, I'm a little surprised Dorsey hasn't been getting blame. I guess I've seen a few posts from yesterday, but that's it. Just an underwhelming group of players who are overpaid and not performing.

But, you know, it was all about that roster turnover!

This was one of the bigger concerns regarding Dorsey when he came here... poor player valuation regarding contracts. I also agree with a couple of other posters regarding the possibilty (not definitive) of being just a glorified scout with no process or long-term plan and might not be capable of accepting people's opinion of those who are smarter than he is.

Since the jump, I've found it very hard to listen to Dorsey in press conferences. And for the record, I've been one who says press conference are essentially meaningless, but listening to that guy talk is nothing more than rambling and incohesive run-on sentences. I'm not sure there is much of a plan outside of aquiring what he sees as talent regardless of cost or the future in mind and just runs with it.

Glad he flexed those muscles on Kitchens so far though.

Still think we have our franchise QB because of him, however.

I’m convinced this team will never amount to anything until they hire that John Krese kinda guy. A guy that preaches “No mercy” a guy that I still hate and absolutely beating teams into a pulp showing not one ounce of mercy. The guy that teaches the Browns the same dirty game of football the Steelers play.

The Browns are too nice and have no heart and nothing short of a John Krese kinda personality is going to fix that.

can anyone give me a reason to keep Freddie other than continuity?

As of right now?.....No. No, I cannot.

At this point you have to wonder where the Browns would be if Sashi got to finish what he started.

He embarrassed himself and the franchise with that t-shirt stunt. Then he embarrassed himself on the field by not backing it up. In week 12. He's learned nothing.

Hard to gamble that he will.

Drawing to inside straights is not a sane lifestyle. Snappy explanations for losses. We were outplayed yesterday, not outmatched. Which team played like they were prepared best?

And what if Haslem didn't get in the way and hired Hue instead of McDermott who, reportedly, EVERYONE else wanted.

Clearly the decision to pick Hue over Sashi was a complete joke.

The players who were jettisoned from Cleveland by Dorsey just because they were players from the last regime are doing well, even mid-round guys in back up roles. Hell, Carl Nassib as 5 sacks and a forced fumble as a depth guy! Before Ogbah tore his pec and is now out for the year, he was performing better than Vernon, who we're paying $13M!

What's happening here is mind-bogglingly (word?) frustrating.

There was a plan before and we all new what it was. I don't see a plan or a direction with what this team wants to be and where it wants to go. Just a bunch of guys doing their own thing.

And the Haslems are a complete dumpster fire. Good to know when they step down completely, we have JW Johnson waiting in the wings. The guy people said, when he got a Exec. VP role out of absolutely nowhere, "Oh, his background is media/marketing. I don't know what the big deal is."

Fools.

Again, I'm a person that absolutely hates coaching changeover. You guys do realize that by changing over coaches, we're essentially signing up for 1-2 more seasons like this one before we get better, right?

New HC --> New coordinators --> New systems --> new players/turnover

But that said, Freddie has gone back to doing the things that absolutely infuriate me. Starting LT out? That's fine, lets leave both our tackles on islands against their beast DEs. Let's get away from what was working in the first half and only run the ball a couple times (against said pass rush). Chubb was running tough (as always), and Hunt finished with 4 yards/carry.

The most disappointing thing, by far, is our defense. We have waaaaaay too much talent to fold like a cheap tent. And yeah... injuries/suspension, but moreso for their offense. They had a 3rd string QB, and missing their starting center, #1WR, and #1RB. Inexcusable.

Dorsey is fine. Nobody hits 1000, and this team has young, promising talent. His moves are for the long-run, not for this year.

As for Freddie, I hate coaching changes with a passion, but I also hate watching a coach essentially shoot the offense in both feet.

Completely disagree. His moves were made to make a run starting this year. Whether by a Haslem directive or by his own accord, all the FA signings and trades for veterans (including giving up a first rounder) were not for 2-3 years down the line. They were for NOW!

I'm not sure I buy this anymore. Let's assume we have our QB, and I have reservations that we do, a good coach should be able to come in and get this turned around quickly. We need a leader who focuses on the right things and puts the Browns first. That's all that is needed.

I used to be in the continuity group, but I'm almost to the point where you need to keep changing coaches and QBs until you get it right. How do you know you got it right? By the product on the field...and I'm not talking wins and losses.

We have a large number of players who have regressed this year...Baker, Randall, OBJ, Ward, Ogunjobi, Garrett suspended, Njoku healthy scratch. These were supposed to be building blocks to the future. This has happened under Freddie's watch. The product is awful.

Take the Texans, for example. They've had some ups and downs this year, but have a winning record and bounce back games. No drama. No stupidity. You look at that and say O'Brien deserves another year. What has happened under Freddie's watch to be willing to risk another year? This clown wore a T-shirt that motivated an opposing team prior to their game and he doesn't see anything wrong with it.

I would like to see a list of all the accomplishments...good things...Freddie has done this year.

J/c

The Browns are still the only team I’ve ever seen that when their opponent goes up by a score in the 3rd quarter acts like the game is lost and out of hand. Flat and no fight!

Who is our DB coach? He needs to be fired. Ward and Greedy are top talents but are being wasted. I’m sick and tired of seeing them not looking for the day one ball! I also don’t know why we don’t seem to see Money Mitch out there more.

When’s the last time we had a coach who treated the Steelers game like it mattered? I get that you have to win some for it to be a legit rivalry but if you never treat the game seriously or with due respect, how the hell do you expect to win more?

We saw improvement over the last few games, but Freddie is not mature enough in his own right to keep it together. He’s better off as a position coach and player liaison if you ask me. Once we gave up an 11 yard run after pinning them to the one, I told the fan next to me that I wasn’t even sure I wanted us to drive down and score a TD. I didn’t trust Freddie to kick the PAT to send it in to overtime instead of trying to get too cute and go for two.

Freddie tosses away literally every opportunity to turn anything about this team around:
- he can’t make effective use of all-pro level talent
- he can’t capitalize on momentum changing events like turnovers
- he can’t establish this offense as ANYTHING recognizable
- he can’t embrace a culture changing event like the first game against Pittsburgh

I don’t care about his BS learning curve. If we have to have patience while an all-pro level roster is held back by its HC then ticket and merchandise prices should be reduced until he’s ready to perform the job he was friggin hired to do.

Are there any tech geniuses out there that can super impose the Browns uniforms on to the players in The Replacements? I think I’d enjoy watching that every week more than a Kitchens led team.

Will OBJ have to participate in training camp or just be allowed to spend 90% of camp on the sidelines watching during team drills and only participate in individual drills?

That will depend on who's coaching the team.

Williams AND Ward suck and have sucked all season... well, except for the four games they missed after being hit with sniper fire after being hit by a bus - wait what's that, they had strained hammy's? Oh, that's cute.

Dixon and Minnifield they are not.

.

I actually think Wilks is doing a great job given the pieces he has right now. I know a lot of people see that they Steelers were missing a few key players and see that as a reason to criticize the defenses performance, but if you look at it objectively, the Brown's defense wass dinged up way worse than the Steelers offense.

By the second half yesterday, Richardson, Thomas, and Vernon were mostly on the sideline. Only one of the remaining DL, Ogunjobi, was even on the opening day roster. So that means our D-line was mostly practice squad players.

At linebacker, only Schobert was an opening day starter.

In the secondary, only Ward was the opening day starter.


Despite all of these injuries, the defense has held teams under 30 points consistently since the NE game. The offense needs to score more than 13 points to stand a reasonable chance of beating Pittsburgh or almost any other team. Like previous games, the defense did their part by creating turnovers at the right time and the offense and head coach mismanaged the situation and botched the opportunities that the defense created.

In the second quarter, After the offense was successful with the running game and was eating up clock, Pittsburgh moved down the field, but the defense made a stand in the redzone and forced a field goal. As far as I was concerned, that was a defensive victory. Our offense gets the ball back with under 3:00 left in the half with a chance to score and ensure that Pittsburgh does not get another possession. What do we do? We take Chubb out of the game and go shutgun three straight plays, then punt, taking just over a minute off of the clock. Then Pittsburgh scores on a possession that never should have happened.

Pittsburgh then gets possession and momentum to start the second half and they quickly tack another 10 points on.
Down 10 in the fourth, I figured the game was over, but then we get the field goal and Hodges throws up a really stupid interception and we have a shot to come back. 7:18 left in the game, plenty of time to run the ball. We throw the ball three straight times and get knocked out of field goal range.

At this point I figure the game is over, because there was no way that our beatup defensive line is stopping Pittsburgh from running out the clock, but to their credit, they forced one more punt and gave the offense a full two minutes to score.

Bottom line: Wilks is doing a great job in my book. He is working with a lot of practice squad players that opposing teams are going to go after, but he has still managed to put the offense in great position to win the game.

Is it the DB coach or is it Wilks' scheme? Ward and Greedy are better suited for man coverage. Wilks plays more zone coverage. Wilks not adapting his scheme to fit his players strengths is a problem.

Here's an article discussing it upon the hiring of Wilks...

https://www.draftace.com/2019/02/20/steve-wilks-wrong-coach-denzel-ward/

75 was the highest grade according to PFF?

Yikes.

I think they are playing plenty of man coverage. And by and large they are providing tight coverage. My issue is that I at least consistently see them NOT looking for the ball which results in missed opportunities to INT, knock the ball down or a PI call. I see this game after game and their coverage was tight enough and the Steele’s receivers pedestrian enough that Duck shouldn’t have been connecting on what were essentially jump balls.

Memphis,
I liken win-now to picking up aging vets and spending big money in FA. OBJ trade should've worked out better this year than it did, but we got a top top tier WR that's just hitting his prime. That should be a transaction that helps us much more over the long haul (but should've helped more in year 1). We traded our top-tier guard, but had a fill-in that failed (again, nobody bats 1.00). Peppers is a very good SS. Those can be found/developed.
All of that speaks to long-term plans. And nothing speaks more to long-term plans than hiring a coach with a (relatively) limited resume.

Rishuz,
I don't necessarily agree with you list of players that have regressed, but I don't argue that Freddie has VASTLY disappointed in many aspects of his coaching. And you say that coaches should be able to come in and get a team rolling right away, but how many times has that NOT happened here? Too many times. For whatever reason, I just don't think that's possible in Cleveland. I have no defense for Freddie's coaching, I'm just not sure that we're better off getting rid of him knowing we're going to take a hit talent-wise.

DevilDawg,
Yeah...