DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns GM Andrew Berry will listen to trade offers for Odell Beckham Jr. and others

I do agree that the whole "working together" can be as my kids like to say "cringy"... but in the absence of that, above all you have to have all parties conducting themselves in a professional manner, putting the job first. I've worked with people whom I couldn't stand, yet we were able to accomplish a helluva lot.


Regardless of what Haslam has done, the Brown's organizational history has been marred with too many incidents of people key to turning things around not being professional and putting the job first.

If Haslam cared about winning, he would have rolled with Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith. He would have let Depo's contract quietly expire and agreed to remain friends and exchange Christmas cards every year.

The difference between a Depo-led regime and a Dorsey-led regime is Haslam's level of involvement. No way Dorsey was going to allow Haslam to have influence and control over his regime. With Depo, Haslam gets to be involved in more decisions.

Haslam, the guy who either didn't know his trucking company was committing crimes or was complicit in it and who hasn't had a single winning season is the NFL, is neck deep involved with how the Browns will conduct business.

The crash and burn is going to be glorious this year.

Agreed. I think it all goes back to Haslam. It's like he creates these conflicts. I don't think it's intentional, but it's been a constant theme.

Every once in awhile, I go back and re-read the Seth Wickersham article about the inner workings of the Browns. There is so much there to unpack and I get that most didn't take the time to read it thoroughly, but I find it fascinating, like watching a building being demolished by explosives.

Haslam is the web that is woven throughout the article. It's amazing how many times I would be left shaking my head in wonderment.

I agree Haslam is the root cause of the pain and dysfunction in Berea since he arrived. I think suggesting he isn't trying to win is a fan fallacy born out of frustration. Hope he got it right this time - and if he didn't I hope he sells the dang team.

Out of curiosity what do you have to support this conclusion?

All 3 of them were here together. By any account Dorsey, outside of inheriting Hue had run of the table and got what he wanted up until it came to pay the tab at the end of Freddie's failed season.

I would definitely be interested in any examples of DePo or even Haslam for that matter getting in his way. Given the level of autonomy Dorsey already had and the results, I'm just having a hard time understanding how continuing to keep him in charge, in a structure where he would be left unchecked would be a better situation.

That Dorsey led a regime, and Depo never has and still isn't.

The thief cares about winning .. he just thinks/wants to be in the middle of things and has no clue THAT HE’S THE REASON WERE NOT WINNING ... he thinks he’s the glue needed to hold things together ...

He micro manages everything and thinks that’s the only way for success ... witch is really incredible seeing as how he allegedly learned from his time with the stilers ... he clearly thinks the Rooney’s way of doing thins isn’t good enough for him ...

He’s got this .. ...

Or the HC couldn't work well with him. See how easy it is to just say something?

Good take. Of course he wants to win. He reluctantly took a back seat to Dorsey last year. But, he jumped right in when things didn't go well this year and got rid of Dorsey and company.

I said this earlier on one of the threads: Please read Seth Wickershams' article on the Browns and pay attention to all the Haslam references. It paints a very clear picture.

I am just mad at myself because I actually believed in the dude when he took over and I defended him.

I'm sorry. Haslam does not care about winning. If he did, he would hire good people and get out of the way, recognizing that his involvement and management style has left an unprecedented trail of collateral damage. Haslam very much wants to be hands on. Of course he would like to win while being hands on. That's not the same as wanting to win.

Haslam is the root of the problem in the sense that he's drawn to self-centered egomaniacs like himself. He thinks that's a sign of being a great leader because he thinks he's a great leader. Manziel, Hue, Dorsey are the Haslams of their respective positions.The problem with self centered egomaniacs is that they inevitably bump heads when they come together with others like them. Instead of listening to smart people, they like to try to prove that they are smarter than them and fail miserably. Maybe Haslam has finally been humbled a bit and realized working with the smart guy works better than trying to prove him wrong. Fortunately, Depo isn't a self-centered egomaniac, so he hasn't ticked off Haslam yet, and he finally seems to have convinced Jimmy to hire guys that don't seem to be self-centered egomaniacs. There's only room for one, and hopefully we can keep him distracted with uniforms and stadium/facility upgrades for awhile while the team-oriented guys get to work on the roster/actual football.


...Yeah, that might be a little hyperbolic.

Disagree. If Haslam did not care about winning he'd never have fired anyone. And I would not say he wants to be hands on as much as he just wants to know what's going on with his football team.

I'd taking spooning out my eyes to Collingsworth

I agree. Well said.

People can say a lot of things about Jimmy, but not wanting to win is about as far from the truth as possible.

I don't even think he is that hands on. No more than most owners. We just don't know much about other owners who aren't winning Super Bowls.

I don't think Jimmy is close to guys like Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder in DC.

If you disagree then you have to acknowledge he's too stupid to figure it out. Either he doesn't care about winning or he does and is too stupid to figure it out...one of those is an absolute truth, and they are both bad.

There's no gray here.

Sorry man, anybody who turns maybe 9 gas stations in east Tn. and SW Virginia his father operated in to a country wide travel center with maybe 800 units isn't stupid. Not even country wide. They operate in Canada.

Stay real.


Just saying...

Agree.

IMO Jimmy's problem is probably more on over-thinking problems, thinking there is a simple quick answer. Which is not usually the case in the NFL, when it comes to a struggling team. Too many variables and moving parts.

That seems a bit harsh.

That's where people seem to have a problem. Creating a winning product takes a lot more than marketing other people's products. As Haslam said in his opening press conference, "It's a marketing world".

Only in the NFL, you have to build a quality product to market.

Apples and oranges.

I agree with you that doesn't make him stupid. It just makes him good at marketing and terrible at building a football team.

I am not sure those things are polar opposites.

I wouldn't call him stupid, but I would certainly agree that he's made some mistakes. I believe he can figure it out, and perhaps at times he may not have known exactly what he's doing. But that is not the same thing as being stupid.

I believe he realizes the importance of continuity.

I also believe he's found people he can trust within the organization.

We are heading in the right direction.

In retail, the structure is often more important than the people. The right locations are important. The right resource providers/raw goods matter.

In football, the people are more important than the structure.

You can get away with disinterested people running registers and executives with poor people skills because they aren't in the same building with their subordinates.

When everyone has to be motivated and working together, and they are stuck in close proximity, people skills become much more important.

Structure is still important. Skills and talents are also important. But, being a bunch of parts of the team is the most important. One person can't hijack the bus and do it all alone.

When that person has no concrete plan, it also hurts. When a person says the plan is one thing and then gets pieces that don't fit that plan (i.e, planning to tear things down to the studs and then hiring Hue, wanting a tough hardworking team and drafting Manziel, wanting a collaborative effort and hiring Dorsey, etc.), it doesn't work.

I am sorry as well. But just because you are very talented and building and marketing gas stations - doesn't mean you are that good at building or maintaining an NFL Franchise.

Yep, only Jimmah has the worst record of any modern sports team owner. (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL)

He can't even say that his record is better than Ted Stepian ... and the NBA put a rule in place to prevent another from following his stupidity.

Even Beilein, who was a massive failure as a coach for the Cavaliers, has a better winning % than Haslem. Bear in mind that the NFL is set up for teams to win in cycles. Obviously some are better, and some are worse, and some are a laughingstock like Jimmah.

I wonder when the NFL will institute "The Haslem rule"? In the meantime, Haslem should contractually fire himself. He is the root cause of all of this mess. He'll never do it though .... because of that massive Jimmah ego.

I know in your post that you seem to point fingers at certain individuals according to how you see things. On that we certainly won't agree.

But the bottom line is we both agree that the structure is totally different and success at one certainly has nothing to do with success at the other.

I'm not pointing fingers at anybody different. I'm pointing out that most people are pointing at Haslam for the wrong reasons.

He took over a mess of a team. It was going to be a struggle. People act like he ran the Patriots into the ground. A broken team is a bad place to learn on the job. If everyone was starting from scratch, the "you are what your record says you are" argument might have a point. Unfortunately, Haslam (and Depo) started in the middle of a raging dumpster fire.

The fact that the success in different businesses isn't related doesn't mean he can't be successful in both.

It's easier to grow something that is working than it is to fix something that is broken. Bill Belichick struggled here.

I think Jimmy wants to win. I even said so.

However, you are being very liberal w/your comparisons. Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Who has the worst record of NFL owners?

2. Which owner has almost constant turnover in either the coaching staff and front office, and even both?

Thus, while he may want to win, his actions and record say that he is a massive failure as an NFL owner.

Really?

He has had ample time to turn the team around. In a league where it is literally setup for teams to become good rather quickly - he has failed over and over again.

They started in a dumpster fire, then dropped a nuclear bomb on it, buried it under a Native American burial site, then crapped on the grave.

It doesn't. But the fact that he is successful in one area doesn't mean he will be successful in both either. One has nothing to do with the other.

We shall see. Andrew Berry is on the clock.

I find that an odd way of looking at things. When you start at the bottom the only direction is up.

I could understand your point had Haslam only made a few hires. But that's not the case.

If you're trying to blame the people he hired, you must blame the actual person who decided to hire them.

It all begins at the top.

And no, the fact that the business models are totally different doesn't mean he "can't succeed". But it does mean that there's nothing that says he can. And thus far we've seen no evidence that he will.

Jummy has owned the Browns for what, 7 years now?

Thats what you call - a track record.

And the hirings and firings have gone at record speed.

If we traded Beckham, we might be able to get Becton and Simmons in the draft

We hadn't hit bottom, we were circling the drain when he took over. We still had to hit the bottom, which we did. Dorsey is the one who only could go up. He did, and then we started sinking again.

I am blaming Haslam for hiring them. That's what I'm saying people should be blaming him for. Not this structure and setting people against each other, not wanting to win BS. He made some lousy hires.

So it took Haslam five years to find the bottom when we were circling the drain when he bought the team?

Yep, he tried to fight the current. Eventually he decided to let the tub empty, re-plug it and start filling it again.

I'm hoping the new cracks in the tub are things we can fix without emptying it.

...I really need to stop using analogies. It's hard to keep track of what the topic is.

Well, here's one: Berry and Depo are the babies, Haslam is the bathwater. Don't throw the babies out with...

Wait, yuck, now I picture those two in a tub, splashing each other with Corona water.

Nevermind.

It's not hard. You seem to try and equate tearing a team down to building a team up. We both know tearing it down is easy and building a team is hard.

You, and others, keep saying that... I feel like I read it at least 25 times per week. I know you've convinced me (I really didn't need much convincing).

Quick question though. Do you think the tear-down was necessary, or was there a better way?

No, I've always said building a team is hard.

People complaining about Haslam are implying that building a team is easy.

Sometimes you have to tear down something so you can rebuild in its place. Rotted wood doesn't magically become solid again. Or maybe I should go with toxic water doesn't magically become clean without dumping it out to stick with the old analogy.

Had Haslam hired the right people to begin with, he would have spent five years building the team. To me that would have been "a better way". The draft, FA and salary cap systems make that something quite attainable.

After falling flat on his face in trying to accomplish building a team for his first three years, I still don't know.

We would have been in year seven of building a team now rather than in year two of a rebuild after spending two years ripping it apart.

So three years at failing to build a team, two years of tear down and two more years of trying to rebuild after that tear down was a better idea than seven years of building a team. Alrighty then...