https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/02...-necessary.html

Browns GM Andrew Berry will listen to trade offers for Odell Beckham Jr. and others but ‘we view him as part of our future’
By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com
INDIANAPOLIS — The Browns seem committed to moving forward with receiver Odell Beckham Jr., but new GM Andrew Berry, who promises to be aggressive, will listen to trade offers for the three-time Pro Bowler.

“I won’t discuss any specific player in terms of trade opportunities, trade calls or anything like that,’’ Berry said when specifically asked about Beckham. “I did work under probably the strongest wheeler-dealer in the league under [Eagles GM] Howie Roseman and it’s something that you always pick up the phone and you listen to anything across the table.


“A lot of trade talk ends up being hollow across the NFL anyway. But again, we’re going to exploit any opportunity to improve the roster through any means necessary.’’

Berry and coach Kevin Stefanski, who both addressed the national media at the NFL Scouting Combine on Tuesday, spoke in glowing terms of Beckham and Jarvis Landry, and sounded eager to have them on the roster despite both coming off surgeries. Beckham underwent a core muscle procedure on Jan. 21st and Landry a hip surgery on Feb. 4th that will keep him sidelined until at least August.

"Odell’s a very talented football player,'' Berry said. "We view him as part of our future. Kevin and I both have had really good conversations about our expectations for him and we expect him to adapt to those moving forward. We’re excited about the future with Odell, excited about what he’s going to do this fall.''


Mary Kay Cabot
✔
@MaryKayCabot
#Browns Andrew Berry when I asked him if he’d listen to offers for Odell Beckham Jr:

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Berry said the surgeries won’t impact his approach to the receiver position in the draft or free agency because they’re both on the mend and expected to be fully healthy for the 2020 season.

"I don’t think it has a significant impact in terms of our strategic planning,'' Berry said. "Both of these guys are more than well on their way from a rehabilitative perspective and we expect them to be significant contributors in the fall. So the injury situations from my perspective wouldn’t really influence it one way or the other.''

Kevin Stefanski has talked to Beckham and Landry about learning the system and taking mental reps when they’re not with the team.

"[I] have spoken to both of those guys about it and how they have to be very proactive about learning the system maybe when you’re not getting reps due to an injury,'' he said. "I’ve been able to spend some time with them as they’ve been working with Joe [Sheehan] and the medical staff.”

Last season, Baker Mayfield struggled to develop chemistry especially with Beckham since he couldn’t practice during the week.


"That’s our job as coaches to make sure when we have the guys available to us that we’re getting really good work,'' he said. "The pass game is about precision and timing so that’s something we have to really harp on and make sure we give them a plan.''

Trade speculation will swirl around Beckham this offseason because he stated last season that he didn’t know what the future held in 2020. He later amended that to say he’ll be with the Browns and is excited to be a part of this team, but teams will undoubtedly call about him nevertheless.

Beckham: ‘I’m not going anywhere; it’s just too special to leave'

One si.com report last week stated that Beckham would welcome a trade to the Jets, but a source told cleveland.com that’s unlikely to happen.

There is so much wrong with this article.

yep... I think it probably should go in the trash.

Just like MKC.


Fun fact... she doesn't write 1/2 of her articles. Other people at the office do it for her and publish them as hers.

No doubt. I'm still shaking my head.

There might be something to that because that article was all over the place and one sentence would contradict another.

Then why post it?

I know with 100% certainty. I worked there for 4 years and watched it happen.

I remember years ago. somebody jokingly wrote a program that would automatically write New York Times articles. It basically would pull frequent quotes and sentences found in articles and randomly insert them into a mish-mosh of a story, and the results usually looked pretty similar to an actual NYT article. Probably similar technology going on here.

Starting with the title. She's an asshat.

I mean, we “could” trade anybody ... not just OBJ. I dont think we will of course

MKC stirring the pot... I'm not sure much more could be said.

Agreed

JOE SCHOBERT
LB, CLEVELAND BROWNS

Speaking Tuesday, Browns GM Andrew Berry said impending free agent MLB Joe Schobert has "earned the right to test the market."

Translation, the Browns are not currently close to meeting Schobert's asking price. Berry did say the sides will talk at the Combine. The No. 99 overall pick of the 2016 draft is coming off a play-making 2019, though one where he actually earned negative marks from Pro Football Focus. The Cleveland Plain Dealer reports "half a dozen teams or more could be interested" in the 26-year-old. He has been an every-down player for three seasons.

SOURCE: Cleveland Plain Dealer
Feb 25, 2020, 9:40 PM ET

...

He’s earned the right ... i wonder if he’ll feel that way about MG & Chubb when there time comes ...

He’s earned the right .... ..

Translation: "We are too far apart on numbers, so we are going to let the market set his price."

Not Scwatzing him would be a HUGE upgrade from Sashi’s reign ...

That damned GM should get him locked up before the FA signing period begins!

Never mind. Wrong GM.

At this point in the off-season I'm not sure why any player wouldn't test the free agent market.

Free Agency starts in 12 days, I believe.
Real negotiating on new deals for current players start now.

When an agent gets too dug in on demands, you tell them to go see what you can get on the open market. Either the agent will be validated or we will (like with Schwartz). I just hope like Hell that we aren't as stubborn as we were with Schwartz and keep our offers out there and do NOT try to play games with them. Be above-board and players will respect them; and that carries weight.

j/c:

All the hedging on here is hysterical.

Safe to say, Schobert is a valuable member of this team. He is someone that we "should" want to retain.

But, if Joe is going to cost us a ton of money that his skill set doesn't justify, then let him walk.

I would rather he stay, but like I said, I've moved away from player loyalty. They have none to us as Fans.... Lip server, sure, we get that a lot, but in the end, no loyalty.

And the owners have no loyalty to players. Life is a two way street.

I don't blame any man who has a very limited career putting his family first.

It's odd that all the folks blasted Dorsey because he hadn't yet re-signed Schobert are now strangely quiet.

Wonder why that is?

because Berry isn't even close to being qualified to be a GM in the NFL.

what can we expect out of him besides making a ton of stupid moves that will hurt the team?

Not sure how to interpret your post, but I'm not slamming Berry for not signing Joe. I'm just pointing out that folks were so upset that Dorsey hadn't signed Joe and now they are not saying a word.

I think the answer is rather obvious.

Because it is pretty simple.

This is what I've said multiple times, but here is a comment back in November.


https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...nds#Post1691803

So yes, that is why people who understand what happens with FO changes in January are pointing the finger at Dorsey in large part if Schobert goes to the market and never comes back. Dorsey didn't do it when he had the chance to (if he even wanted to) and now a new group is picking up the pieces for all parts of the organization in a couple months' time.

Most on here are well aware you're simply trolling, but felt it important to bring this perspective back to the forefront during FA because this is an issue the organization (and fans) have had to face quite a bit recently.

So the fact that he is asking for too much money isn't the same with both GM's? It's odd how his price tag works as a good enough reason for one but wasn't good enough for the other.

It's a FACT he is asking for too much money? Where are you getting his asking demands?

well, to be fair.... (insert Letterkenny references) this is only a guess by us on the outside based solely on Berry's comment. We actually have no information that directly supports this.... so, it isn't fact, it is merely supposition.

And when the guy hits free agency opposing teams always overpay for other players, which is why you want to do these contracts far in advance. You know, like the year before.

Let me pose this to you. If his demands were in the realm of being what the team considers negotiable and reasonable, why wouldn't they just sign him rather than let him hit the FA market?

A teams first option isn't bidding against 31 other teams for a players contract.

Yeah, he would have reduced his asking price a few months ago. The excuses you guys come up with are comical.

You mean just like JC Tretter did?



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001...-325m-extension

So his price was going to increase?

You seem to be lacking how the business end of this works. A players agent knows what he values the player at. The players pay these agents tons of cash to know their value and get the most their talent allows for.

This "home town discount" and thinking a player will somehow miraculously devalue themselves mid season is a pipe dream.

Very true, all of it.... but we don't know if they are too high or if we're too low. All we know is that we can surmise they are far apart on their thinking right now because they aren't moving forward; they're instead taking the stand-offish stance.

So, we can kinda see what it is, but we cannot see or know the degree.

Pit only used 1/2 the equation ... your correct in that what he said was true but leaving out 1/2 the equation is BullCrap ...

The team also puts a value on a player and isn’t going to overspend ....

There’s clearly a gap here ... Pit wants to run his mouth like he knows the numbers being discussed .... NO ONE on here knows the numbers being discussed ... so how Pit comes to his conclusion is odd on a good day ...

The agent knows, in general, teams will most likely overpay for FA in the market....especially in the first day or two with the bidding is at its highest. In a regime change in the early part of the year and with FA looming, it makes a lot more sense only a few weeks for that camp to test the market if a deal isn't struck ahead of time.

Our chance to get Joe locked up decreased the minute the season ended. You can say he was asking for too much as it relates to the LB position and his actual value and claim it as fact, but you have no idea. If anything, there was disconnect between perceived value. That value difference is not a static number and is based on the variables involved. In this case, the variables were Dorsey and Joe's team. But value difference may not be the same between Berry and Joe's team. But this stage in the process before FA and being just weeks away, why not test FA and see if the bidding increases market value? Nah, I think I understand how this business works just fine.

No one is talking about a home-town discount as in him taking a significant amount less to stay here. That's silly and not being presented by anyone.



But it doesn't mean they are right....just ask Mitchell Schwartz when he went to FA in 2016 having to come back to Cleveland and try to get the original deal.

I didn't say the agent was right on their value. Sometimes the team isn't right.

But on both accounts that value is set. Your assertion is that somehow that value increases or decreases by some magic formula as the season is coming to a close. I do not in any way believe that is correct.

This is correct, but the issue here is, we don't know if AB is a good GM. All we know is that the track record we do have to go off of, is that they undervalue players, and over-overvalue assets.

So it is VERY possible that they are undervaluing Joe, and offering him a scumbag contract - knowing the fans will be on their side if Joe balks at it. "Your turning your back on the team, Joe!"

Ab was part of the FO that drafted Joe, the same FO that said we need to draft retain our good players.

I am all for letting Joe walk if he is asking insane money. But it comes out that Joe was asking a fair amount, and we balked trying to play cute, well...I wouldn't be surprised, but ill be extremely mad.

Imagine claiming someone is making up a magic formula while themselves claiming as fact that Schobert is asking for too much money in his contract extension without having a clue what he is asking for.

There, I summed it up for you


There are 12 days until free agency begins; I will be surprised if this is the one and only meet/conversation that Berry and Joe's agent has over the next 10-12 days.

Berry is a new GM, agents are going to try to see what they can get by him... I kinda expect initial discussions to be a bit far apart.





Ditto.
In no way will I find it acceptable for us to have another Schwartz situation. By the same token, I don't want the front office getting bullied into bad contracts by agents just because they're afraid of losing a guy if they stand their ground. It's been said that a good deal is one where both sides feel they've won.

If they are as smart as we all believe them to be, they not only have set Joe's value, but they've set it relative to everyone else they expect to be available and not just blindly going off whatever the highest paid at the position is.

If you know you can get Billy Bob from some other team for $12 million and he is an equal or better player, then you hold your ground when Joe's agent tells you $14 million. It isn't just about Joe, but also about everyone else that will be out there, and since the Giants just released two linebackers, that may soften Joe's market value.

Agreed. I hope they can pan something out before it "officially" starts, but I have my doubts.

Worst case: Malik Harrison will be sitting there for us in the 3rd round

I don't think that's what said.

What pitt implied is that the Cleveland Browns have set a value for Joe, and Joes agent set a value for Joe.

He is saying, based on what has happened, that Joe is asking for more money than the Cleveland Browns have valued him at. He didn't say was asking for too much, just more than the Browns offered.

Because if Joe wasn't asking for more than the Browns offered, he more than likely would have been signed.

Completely agree.

My issue is, they Billy Bob is worth about 2 million, and they pay him 3 million, saving the 11 million from Joe, but he gives you 1.5 million effort.

That's pretty much what we saw the last time we did this numbers thing in the FO.

Reading is fundamental. It's too much according to the teams evaluation. If it weren't the team would have signed him.

To borrow one from diam here.....

0+0=0

If my boss told me I'd earned the right to join another department I'd think she didn't like me.

LOL...what a dumb thing to say.

The Cleveland Browns...consistently getting rid of good players for the last three decades. Good players aren't good enough. Need a HOF at every position.

Pit literally said Joe was asking for too much money w/o having any idea if that was true or not. Perhaps Dorsey could have easily been punting another guy from the past regime off the roster that he wasn't responsible for and wanted to start his guys, Wilson, Takitaki, & A. Taylor and, as result there was no chance at a deal. We've seen that before but at least I'm not claiming that is a fact. He was claiming Joe was asking for too much $ w/o really knowing a thing. I've heard things that Dorsey never really approached Schobert about a deal.

How about this:

https://chroniclet.com/news/182983/brown...-extension-yet/

One can make an assumption that numbers weren't really discussed. I/m not claiming it as fact but there was several things out there that extension talks were ever really happening.

Anyways......

But even with your comment interpreting his, I still disagree. Maybe the value was set for Joe in Dorsey's opinion. And that's why a deal wasn't struck. But Berry's value of Joe and Dorsey's value can be something completely different in terms of a contract. That's why I said earlier the perceived value is not static number and based on the person making the decision at least ahead of FA. It can fluctuate based on opinion. But as many people have suggested, and I agree, at this point it makes sense for Joe to see in FA is team will overpay on the market for his services. I think that is where he is headed but hope a deal can be struck ahead of time.

It's been explained to you but you just keep harping on about it. Enjoy.....

The asking price for Joe was obviously too high for either of them to sign him or he wouldn't be hitting the FA market.

Please do continue though....

I will simply refer you to all the prior statements about how the goals of the team were different then and advise you to let that thought simmer until understanding sets in.

No...this is what he said:



and then he clarified by saying the team as a value set for him in a post after that.

The FACT that Joe hasn't signed a contract extension, says that the Browns have value X and Joe and his agent feel they have value Z.

He is implying that that Joe's asking price is too much for the BROWNS. Another team could say, he we think your worth Y, Joe, heres our offer.

So then what is AB and Depo doing now, they were part of Drafting Joe, where they not?

That's all nice and dandy, but we know that's not the case - as its been widely reported John Dorsey never even reached out to Joe's Agent. So we KNOW, that the offer being presented now, is the first offer he's received from the Browns.

Which takes us back to the point, that more than likely, Joe and his reps feel that offer is too low, and the team feels its his value

And then this drops. If so, I'll stand corrected in terms of the new regime not valuing Joe as high as I think they will/should.

[/quote]

I will simply refer you to all the prior statements about how the goals of the team were different then and advise you to let that thought simmer until understanding sets in.

[/quote]

Oh, its a wait and see thing, absolutely.

I didn't claim it was going to happen, I just said it I will be mad if did.

Yes, it could very well be.

Im don't look at it as a right wrong thing - I don't have the history you two have with each other. I was just explaining what I read in his post.

I saw what you were saying, I was just trying to play peacemaker and explain what pitt was trying to say.

as far as the tweet you posted, if there is a market for Joe, I would ASSume that means several teams are interested in his services.

To me, that means Joe IS worth more than the Browns are willing to pay.

This is where I have a problem with the FO.

Joe is a stand up player, we drafted him. He is a leader on the field and in locker room. he is young, still able to get better, and produced on a team that has well, stunk forever.

We have roughly what, 60 million in cap space. Retaining Joe is not going to break us.

If we find out that joe signs with another team for a reasonable amount of money for her services - that's all I need to have seen from this FO. Dollars over wins.

I don't look at it as a right or wrong thing w/ Pit I think his argument is silly and wavering. I look at is as a right/wrong thing with me thinking Berry's perceived value of Schobert is higher than that of Dorsey's. I don't think Dorsey had intentions of signing Schobert at all.

Going to the market means his camp feels teams are going to overspend for Joe, like they do for a handful of players early on.

He is worth paying, I completely agree, which is why it would have been best to extend him last season.

You see/hear what else Zac Jackson said during that interview?...

the way I look at it is this:

Alec Ogletree
Lavonte David
Benardrick McKinney
Eric Kendricks

Is Joe better than any of those guys?

Id take him over Ogletree
I would say Lavonte David and him are about similar in production - maybe Joe edging him out but could make case either way.
Hes better then McKinney
And I would say better then Kendricks as well.

All those guys are in the 10mill area for average per year.


If we offered him less than that, we low balled him IMO.

https://overthecap.com/position/inside-linebacker/

To be fair, Keith Britton is a nobody. hes a writer. plain and simple (and I actually with this - its doenst mean anything).

with a Healthy Ben in Pitts, we are number 3 in the division.

He is not a writer, he is a producer. He is quoting a writer....Zac Jackson of The Athletic.

As far as the 'he said/she said'...

In just about any article about Schobert that came out this season, it was mentioned that he was looking at big bucks coming his way this FA. The word on the street ("for what it's worth" preface here) was that he's in line for a big contract. I think a certain amount of that fueled the "he's demanding too much money" argument.

Well, that even backs what I said more so lol.

and I bet he will get it, and we will be left with a hole at MLB to add to the list of needs we have.

We are so thin at LB as is, I think its wise they would consider that into their calculations.

All this is moot if Baker plays well.

It really boils down to Baker. Have a bounce back season and improvement on his rookie season and they could be a contender. But if the real Baker is last year's Baker or somewhere in between 1st year and 2nd year, not only will Zac be right but the Browns may be looking for a new QB.

I 100% agree with you, and I hope we are the one that give it to him, albeit hesitantly. I get why we'd be against giving him a top'ish LB contract, but I don't see how we realistically expect to field a competent LB corps without.

Not sure how, but ok!

Finally! MKC found something negative to put out there, nothing positive here in this tripe.

Redefines "blinders on." How about pumping us up for once?

Sucks. She was on a roll there, for a minute.

Schobert is THE MOST OVERRATED Browns player on the team...

I do NOT understand the love for the centerpiece of a CONSISTENTLY UNDER PERFORMING DEFENSE!

We have THE SOFTEST defense in the league.

This defense cannot move forward with Schobert in the middle...period.

Just my $0.02....

I'm saying Berry shouldn't be a GM and he is more than likely going to make a ton of rookie GM/terrible moves.

Also, Dorsey didn't really have the entire offseason to resign Sho. I think he probably would have.

What gives you that indication?

The difference is that, if you re-sign a player while he still has games to play under his current contract, the team would be taking on the injury risk rather than the player, so the price is generally less than if the player makes it to the end of his contract healthy.

If a player gets seriously injured during that final season, he's likely to make less money in free agency, which is why the deals are slightly more team friendly if you do them early. That and you're not bidding against other teams.

Now it's in the players best interest to see how much he can make. He's not risking injury on the field which could impact future earnings. Berry doesn't have that "leverage."

I've generally leaned towards Schobert being somewhat overrated, so I'm not that upset that either guy didn't/hasn't signed him.

Joe's a nice guy and he's football smart. He's not a bad player. However, saying he's the best leader on our D, in my opinion, says more about the rest of our D than it does about him. We need to do a better job developing "leaders" and drafting guys with those characteristics. I'm hoping Kirksey can temporarily fill that void if Joe ends up elsewhere. Getting a compensatory pick would soften the blow of losing him, but we've got some holes that, if we fill them in FA, might cancel such a comp pick out.

While we've had some talented guys, a bunch of them have kind of been knuckleheads. We've had some loud talkers, but not really vocal leaders on the field keeping guys focused and on point for some time. Joe gets guys on D lined up right, but I've never really felt he's the heart of the D or anything like that. Brains perhaps, but he doesn't strike me as a guy that gets others fired up to follow him into battle so to speak. I'm still not sure how no one from our squad did a better job of/tried to de-escalate the Myles-Rudolph incident.

j/c:

I couldn't even read all the crap after I posted what I did. All I know is that I read stuff like "Dorsey's really dropping the ball by not signing Schobert," "Why aren't more people questioning Dorsey," "we have to keep Schobert," "Dorsey doesn't want Schobert because the previous regime drafted him," "Dorsey is so overrated," Etc, etc.

Now, those same guys aren't saying boo-peep about Joe's status. And they say I have an agenda and am trolling. What amazes me the most is how more people can't see through their lies and deceit.

For what it's worth..........I am not blasting either Dorsey or Berry. I don't know how much money Joe's people want. I don't even know his true value. So, it's kind of hard for me to take a strong stance either way. I do think he is a very good player. I think he is extremely smart and very important to a D's pass defense. I also think he is a good dude and hope the Browns keep him.

I just wanted to point out how full of crap some of our more vocal posters are. You know, the same guys who trash Landry.

This is what Joe Schobert had to say about Dorsey and his agent, "I let my agent handle all this kind of stuff, but my understanding is we haven’t gotten any offers so can’t really build on it from there."

Berry, who has had the job for five minutes, is meeting with Schobert's agent.

Dorsey had all of last off-season and the season to sign Schobert to an extension and didn't do it.

If a player reaches this point of the off-season they should probably just wait to hit the free agent market. So comparing Dorsey and Berry with regards to Schobert seems unfair.

Perhaps you should re-read my posts. I am not criticizing Berry. I am talking about the double-standard of certain posters.

I'll leave it at that and won't get into a "poop" exchange w/you.

Maybe some are having double standards. I don't know. Others probably realize it's a nuanced situation.

Look at what you are saying. You quote Joe saying something about him not believing they got any offers and then you mention that Berry met w/him. Did Berry present any offers? Do you know that Dorsey did not even meet w/him?

Dude, just stop!

This deception stuff is out of control.

Let me sum this thread up, and hopefully the refs will lock it.

Nobody here knows jackshit about Schobert’s contract negotiation. Nor does anyone here know jackshit about what the previous front office did with said contract.

The whole thread is hot air.

Talk about football.

You constantly cite articles and quotes as definitive proof of a position when it supports you. Now cfr produced an actual quote from Schobert and you find a way to discount it.

You are by far...and I mean very far...the most deceitful poster on here. I mean it's not even close.

Deceitful!

With depleted to almost no linebackers, we want to say bye to Joe?

I won't be surprised to see him go, because this clown show continues.

No it wasn't. When you read the entire statement you will see it was a respectful comment.

Joe and agent want to see what the market holds.

Dorsey being fired is a pretty good indication.

Randall posted a cryptic tweet.



I wonder what that is about.

My guess is that he still hadn't been to sleep at 5 in the morning and some tomfoolery broke out at whatever spot he was at.

If it was a good thing to sign him last season, it's a good thing to sign him now. Stop with the double standard.

What are you talking about?

I have no idea what you mean here. Are you trying to say that Dorsey had no idea what Joe and his agent were asking for? Because that's not what it says. It says Dorsey didn't make any offer.

That's exactly the same thing Berry is doing. Berry knows the price tag and rather than make offers to his agent, he's letting him hit the open market.

That's not "meeting with his agent".

It's fairly simple. Both Dorsey and Berry thought the price tag for Joe was too high. Neither made him an offer. They both did the same thing and took the same action.

It was a good thing then and it is now. Which is why I want to sign him and stay. How is that a double standard?




How do we know Berry has offered a contract? Players have been offered contract before and guys still go to the market. To reference a prior example, Sashi offered a contract to Schwartz before FA and he still went to the market? Simply because someone goes to the market doesn't mean a contract wasn't offered. You're making stuff up as fact. All we know is Berry is/was planning on meeting Joe's team at the combine. For all we know that meeting hasn't even happened yet as the combine goes through 3/1. Maybe a contract won't be offered, who knows? Certainly not you at this point.

Do you have some info we don't that you like to share? We have a quote from Joe about no contract from Dorsey. That's it up to this point.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2020/02/...s-joe-schobert/

I have the same information you do. Berry said that Joe will hit the FA market. If he didn't think the asking price was too high, he would have signed him. When the price is too high to be able to go into negotiations, you let the player his the market.

You're really reaching on this one.

Which doesn't confirm anything about a contract offer from Berry, just that the sides are expected to meet at some point (maybe already happened). Thank you for confirming. We all appreciate it.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/sports/202...tract-situation

Get back to me when Joe hits the FA market. The same result some of you were "predicting" would happen with Dorsey. Then make up all the excuses why it's suddenly so different.

Yes! He most likely will hit the market. That's the entire problem with all of this, the changing of FO each January and it's been my position from the very beginning of all of this back-n-forth and the reason why I think we should have addressed this last offseason. I can go back and pull the many posts, if you'd like.

But you are making the argument because he is hitting the market that unequivocally means a contract was not/will not be offered by Berry. No one knows what the conversations have been like between Berry and his camp. Again, I'll reference the Schwartz situation as an example.

If only Dorsey would have would have had a crystal ball to tell him he would be fired at seasons end......

If Haslam and Depodesta wanted Joe signed, they would insisted that he would be signed...end of story.

I enjoy knowing other people get to view you moving the goal posts and shifting your argument...all for our entertainment.

j/c:

LMAO at some of the stuff that is written on here.

Just because there's far more than one hole in your theory and I'm pointing them out doesn't mean I moved anything.



Like I said, too bad Dorsey didn't have a crystal ball to know he would be fired at seasons end. When you try and make a silly point, I'll respond. It wasn't me moving the goal posts.

John Dorsey doesn't even talk to Joe's camp about any offer at any point in the season or last offseaon but if he was here now he would have all of a sudden started contract offer talks in January 2020? Just two months before FA?

Speaking of silly points....

I guess every GM who are just now talking to players about a new contract suck, huh?

And all Joe said was that Dorsey, "hadn't made an offer".

If you are referring to Berry here, no. Not if they just started working for the Browns and can now officially talk to pending FAs. But in general, if a GM has been with a team and is looking to extend a player just before FA and is only now laying the groundwork to do it (now being the beginning of NFL calendar)....then absolutely. That's a ridiculous way to go about business and negotiations.



Correct. When he had all last offseason and during the season to make one and start the negotiating process. But alas, nothing. He did it with Tretter, why not Joe?

I wasn't talking about Berry at all. I'm talking about all the NFL GM's that are currently trying to keep players on their roster.



Did you ever stop to think that the demands of Joe's agent were so out of line with what the FO considered his value, that there really wasn't a reasonable starting point to begin negotiations?

Did you ever stop to think that may be the same reason this FO hints at Joe hitting the FA market?

You see, I'm trying to give both GM's equal credit. That would be that Joe's agent is simply asking for far more than the Browns are willing to spend. It makes sense that both of them seem to be coming to the exact same outcome. Joe hitting the FA market.

You're the one trying to choose one of the GM's to blame for the exact same outcome.

On a macro level, I'm blaming the constant turnover in FOs for the lack of player retention for pending FAs this time of year.

On a micro level regarding Joe, I am blaming Dorsey for not getting something done last year with Joe and not being in the position where it is wiser to test FA.

Joe is on record stating the situation between Dorsey and his camp. Nothing was happening. It's pretty obvious where that situation stood.

And if nothing happens now with the new GM you're going to decide that it's all Dorsey's fault rather than consider it could well be that both men simply felt his agent was asking for too much money?

See, in all of this that's the only place we have a disconnect. Sometimes people ask a price that is so far apart from what you value it at, that there's just no reasonable staring point for negotiations.

You seem to wish to find someone to blame here. I don't think that's necessarily true unless you consider it to be Joe's agent.

Like I've stated countless times in the past that I blame Banner for not getting Mack done and I blame Farmer for not getting Schwartz done, each in the prior season before hitting FA. In both instances, with a new GM after they were fired, the predecessor was in the same situation that Berry is now. And if we find out that Joe went out to the market, liked our offer best but we pulled it, then I will blame Andrew Berry like I blamed Sashi for not keeping Schwartz. It's about being consistent. I suggest you do the same.


We have no idea how far apart anything was/is with Dorsey and Berry. All we no is not even one offer was made to Schobert in an effort to keep him. Not one.

It's easy to blame King John. According to Dorsey, Schobert wasn't a "real football player."

Do you have any evidence of his agent asking for too much?

Berry hasn't signed him. If the Browns didn't think he was asking for too much, a deal would be in place.

Or Schobert just wants to see if someone is willing to throw crazy money at him now that he's made it to free agency.

Well of course he does. He suddenly think that he's worth more money than he was a week ago, or two weeks ago, or three weeks ago......

I'll ask you the same thing you asked me....

Its possible, but a bird in then hand is worth two in the bush.

IMO we either valued him at X and he thinks that's to low, or we didn't value him at all and said go get a deal and well see if we want to match it. **I don't think the latter is what happened though - you really don't want someone else doing your bidding.

Joe doesn't have to hope for the two in the bush. The bushes will be coming to him now.

During the season, I agree with the idea. Now, it's not like the bird in his hand is at risk of flying far. He's healthy and free. He's going to get paid somewhere.

I don't doubt it will get paid - its the dollar amount that he will get that's the ?, and then its the dollar amount vs production that matters.

For me, 10-12 million a year for 3-4 would have been about fair give other players salaries as MLB with about the same production.

If we offered less, we low balled him IMO. If he wants more than that - I don't see him getting it.

So that's why he quit....his crystal ball told him he was going to be fired!! I hope it wasn't the same crystal ball that told him Freddy would be a good HC. It might have cost KJ his job.

I have been out of the loop all day, so maybe something has changed. I read the comment Berry said about earning the right. Berry also said he was getting with his agent this week.

I don't it any secret that Dorsey wasn't high on Schobert. Last year would have been the time to extend. Berry has said the same that with some players you don't want it to get to that point.

I am not blaming Dorsey at all. In ways I agree with him. Schobert isn't all that good. If we keep him, great. If not, I will still sleep as well as I normally do....not all that well, but it won't cause a extra loss of sleep.

They aren't the football guys. You may have a point with Haslam, he owns the team...Depo doesn't have that say.

Reading is hard.

I will say that Berry seems like a very nice man who comes from a great family. He came across as very likeable in his interviews. He is obviously very intelligent and a hard-worker.

I was not impressed by the job that the FO did when he was here w/Sashi and Depo. In fact, it was an embarrassment. However, I'll root for the guy because I think he is a good role model for other minorities and can inspire some folks to set high goals while maintaining a sound character. He comes across as so genuine. Good luck, young man!

For some people, yes.

I'm fine going into the season with Kirko & Mack as starters. They would be solid together. Have Taki as backup, and then draft another LB in this years draft. We've been fortunate in getting good LBs mid/late rounds. Sure we could do it again.

I'm not getting on you, but Joe is by far the best LBer on the team.

Kirko is oft-injured and can't get off blocks. However, he is a great team guy, has good downhill speed and is a true pro.

Mack is athletic and should improve. He needs his body to develop and struggles in the run game.

Taki was lost out there in my opinion.

Joe is excellent in zone pass coverages. He is very smart at diagnosing the play. He isn't the strongest guy and does struggle to make tackles after shedding blocks, but he is the best we have............by far.

I won't trash the FO if they don't keep him just like I did not trash Dorsey for not getting the deal done earlier. I am not the hypocrite that some are on here. I will say that I am a bit concerned that this particular FO will start creating holes by letting really good players depart just like they did the last time they were in charge.

Bro, I still can't believe we went back to these guys after what transpired. Haslam is clueless!!!!

C'mon Vers your being too hard on MR. Haslam. A smart guy like you knows everyone deserves a 2nd chance

IMO, Kirko is better at shedding blocks and shooting through gaps to make plays on the defense. No doubt Schow has the heads up in coverage, but I think Mack can fill that void too. That's his strong suit, and he's only gonna get better.

Based on Berry's comments, I doubt we bring Schow back. And honestly, I think that graphic that's floating around that had Sashi's plans laid out on paper, I think a lot of those things will be Berrys goals as well. My point in bringing that up is, I don't think Berry wants to pay big money for a LB who isn't a game changer.

You are probably right about the Berry/Sashi/Schobert thing. One of my issues w/that regime is how many holes they created by not keeping the guys who could play. You are going to get some of that whenever there is a regime change, but it was shocking how many holes they created.

Combine that w/their poor draft choices and you have all kinds of problems. Think about it.........they actually went into a season w/a QB room of Kizer, Kessler, and Hogan. The group had ZERO wins in the NFL. Their WR room was Kenny Britt [a known headcase who had trouble w/the law,] Corey Coleman, and Ricardo Louis as their top 3 WRs.

Meanwhile, we are actually bringing those guys back and people are saying w/a straight face that Dorsey deserved to be fired because he hired Freddie?!?

I think you're forgetting somewhat how bad the roster was when Sashi's group first got it.

Would it have been nice to keep Schwartz? Yes. But Sashi was a first time GM who spent his time on the contracts-side of things. He clearly could have handled it better, but he also had to overcome all the disfunction Schwartz had gone through with his earlier time with the team. He also didn't really have an established relationship with the player. That's one hole "created", though Schwartz wasn't actually under contract, so the hole was kind of already there.

Would it have been nice to keep a healthy Haden? Sure, but he'd been injured the past two years. He also only played 11 games in his first year in Pittsburgh. Sashi didn't have a real close relationship developed with him to fall back on during negotiations with his being new to the job. We were going full tear down because we had a horrible roster and Joe's play and availability hadn't lived up to his contract.

What other holes did they make? They inherited a hole-y, unholy mess. Thanks, Ray Farmer.

Sometimes it is harder than it should be.

When someone tries to cut you off at the knees.....

Sometimes you get forced out by the conditions people set on you. They don't really leave you a choice. It allows people such as yourself to use semantics to paint a different picture than that.

Actually, I was using the literal interpretation of what happened and you were the one using semantics. Anyway, I was just joking and fishing for laughs at the expense of your post. Dorsey's gone and there's nothing we can do about it other than laugh and shake our heads.

I've been saying the same thing about Sashi for years now.

It was probably a little more than that. I get the feeling that Dorsey was kind of a bully. Something went wrong in KC as well, and I think that was the problem.

If you are the top person, you should at least be able to get along with most people, even when you disagree.

There is a way to disagree and get your way without demeaning them in the press and shoving them aside.

I can't prove he shoved them aside, but can about demeaning them in the press. If he is one way in public, it has to be at least the same in private, it not worse.

John Dorsey is a talented scout and evaluator. He isn't a good leader and manager. That takes a skill he doesn't have...tact.

The days of the gorilla storming through the room just doesn't work anymore.

Scared, marginal people deal with it. Unafraid people with some skill move on.

I completely disagree w/your take. I think the "not working well w/others" is a lie. I do think that Dorsey and his guys probably didn't get along well w/some of the guys who remained from 1 and 31. I think they resented him taking over. I think he wondered how they had so much of a voice after sucking so bad.

I think some of them, and Depo in particular, had Lerner's ear during the season when the team did not live up to expectations. I think he used that against Dorsey and made a power-play.

We all have different takes, but I prefer a guy who speaks directly to others rather than sneaking around like a coward and creating trouble.

No, I don't have a look and neither do you.

The person who deserves the most blame is Haslam. That was an unhealthy relationship that was doomed to fail. I really don't blame the analytics guys or Dorsey's guys for not wanting to work w/one another. Haslam should have stuck w/the analytic guys or fired them all and hired new analytic guys. They aren't that hard to find. A guy like Dorsey is.

This is absolute [censored] and you have ZERO proof of it. You, who loves to pontificate about using facts.

JC

Most of what I've read about Dorsey is not so much that he bullies people... he just cuts them out of the process. More than speaking directly to others, he doesn't speak to them at all.

He likes to make decisions on his own and seems to fly by the seat of his pants. Makes curious decisions with no real reasons and no signs of them coming. Seems to irritate those around him when they put in work and then read about his moves in the paper the next morning.

Not much of a collaborative type dude.

Mac said it so it’s true.

I think that Dorsey cut people he didn't trust out of the process. I don't think he had a bit of trouble cooperating with Highsmith and Wolf. (and others he brought in)

I'm tired of your hostile attitude and constant cussing on here.

I said I didn't have a link. I said it was my opinion. I was responding to peen's post where he threw his opinion out there that was just as speculative as mine. Yet, you ignored his post and jumped down my throat.

I have asked you some questions after you angrily teed-off on certain posts and asked you why you didn't do the same thing w/similar posts. You never answered.

Look, there are a lot of opinions on here that are different. That's fine. But, how about you cool it w/the hot-headed replies that don't fit your opinions while ignoring similar posts that do align w/yours?

Thus, I think your posts are absolute censored. LOL

Just a thought so bear with me. Say our new FO and coaching staff aren't enamored with Baker. We trade OBJ for a #1 and sign Case Keenum. With our 1st #1 we draft Jordan Love QB Utah State. With our 2nd #1 we draft an OT. We try and get what we can for Baker, possibly a #2. Love sits a year or 2 and learns behind Case. Thoughts?

cfrs, Hamfist, and Fate said this is so true.

What in the world are you talking about? I didn't say anything like that.

No, just no.

You liked this post.

My post was not any more speculative than peen's. Yet, Hamfist ignored peen's and tore me a new one where he resorted to cussing [as he usually does.] cfrs gave credence to his post by comparing me to mac. You "liked" that.

This is the kind of crap you guys do time after time. Make fun of opposing opinions while ignoring similar posts that agree w/your opinions. It's why I left the board for awhile. Then, I started thinking that it was wrong to allow bullies to dominate anything. I have actually asked several of you about ignoring one another. I'm good w/that. You guys apparently are not and that speaks volumes.

You are right. What Ballpeen said is also outlandish.

Nope. Actually, you compared yourself to Mac.

I'm not sure that he was comparing you to Mac any more than he was commenting on Mac's endless "the sky is falling, DePodesta is taking over the world" approach to Dawgtalker's infamy. It's comical, that's why I liked it.

It seems like you have some serious penchant for interpreting others thoughts and intent... Some sort of "reading between the lines" usually reserved for psychics. Worse than that, you've turned into the "Like" police. Constantly calling people out for liking posts as if you know why they like them. It reeks of paranoia.

So, just so I have it straight...

Liking posts is making fun of people.
Liking posts is bullying.
Liking posts speaks volumes about a person's character.

See ya tomorrow Vers... We can check in and see if anyone is complaining that the Browns haven't signed Schobert. You can use it as an example of why were so jaded, and remind us, for the 79th time, why it's an example of why everything is so unfair. You can complain about every post here, tell us all how misguided we are, and talk all day about the upcoming downfall of the team. The team you won't root for and aren't a fan of.

What a world.

So, how about we just express our opinions and stop w/all of this nonsensical fighting? I am not saying I am innocent in this particular practice, but man.........it's hard to even express one's thoughts on here.

For instance, I responded to an existing post on the Baker thread to a guy I respect. I knew we wouldn't insult one another. We would just respectfully disagree.

That led to a series of posts that ridiculed my position, which obviously killed the conversation. I assume that was probably the goal.

My contention is that it is a message board. Opposing opinions are a good thing. Not a bad thing. Trying to shout down others by ridiculing them is "not good for the board."

And here we go.

How about this, Fate. Would you agree to both of us not responding to one another again? I have been trying to not engage in conversations w/you guys. How about we all agree to not converse so we don't bog the board down w/the petty BS?

I can do it. Can you?

Pardon me for posting on this message board...

I read a lot of posts here. Why is it that you're the only who says to others not to respond so the board isn't inundated with petty BS?

I mean, do you read the message board, or do you just assume no one else does?

I don't think so. I can prove some of the first words out of Dorseys mouth were demeaning comments to people still on his staff. You don't do that in a public form if you are the leader of the team. I will NEVER back away from that comment.

Dorsey put together a top notch team in KC, yet KC decided to part ways. Why was that? As Vers disagreed and said it wasn't bullying..and maybe that wasn't the appropriate term. he said shuts out...ok....did he shut out Reid on everything? I think it was the same behavior there as it was here. He made for a hostile work environment. Something had to make it easy to send him packing.

The guy is a scout, not a manager of people. Berry is both.

There is absolutely no way to know that.

Berry is 32 years old. A kid.

jc...

HEY GIRLS...mac is still here, but carry on anyhow.

I can prove some of the things I said, too.

The difference is that not one person said a word to you. I didn't yell at you. I didn't cuss at you. I proposed an alternative scenario and said that neither of our points can't be confirmed by a link.

So, what happens? Hamfist freaks out w/an angry outburst. cfrs jumps in and it's on.

This type of thing happens far too frequently on this board. Some things are said over and over and no one challenges those opinions and they become "fact," while other opinions are assaulted because they don't fall in line w/others.

I am not trying to stop you from voicing your opinion. I am offering an opposing opinion that also has some factual evidence. But, in the end.....we are giving on our opinion on a public message board.

It would be preferable if people could voice their opinions freely on here w/out all of the assaults.

Jc

Hey so we’re all assuming OBJ is back right?

My question is what are we doing with Higgins? Are we gonna let him walk and find another 3rd receiver, or is someone like ratley most like penciled in?

I hope the Browns wouldn't be dumb enough to trade OBJ.

I think there was an issue between Hollywood Higgins and the coaching staff last year. Perhaps things will be better w/the new coaching staff.

Personally, I don't think the 3rd WR is all that important for the Browns because they have the best 1-2 combination on the entire league. [Thanks John Dorsey.] I think most guys will do well as the 3rd WR because the first two guys draw so much attention.

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, as is everyone here. My issue is the VERBIAGE you use. “Cowardly”, as an example. You make a point then have to disparage a person you don’t know, or have ever met. I double dog dare you to say this kind of thing to a guys face.

I have the same issue with other posters who do the same.

I expect better from you, as you have shown in the past.

I’d keep Higgins around for two main reasons: a security blanket fo injuries to either WR1 or WR2 because he’s already shown to be a solid receiver in his own right. And two, with an injury to WR1/WR2, is going to make the team on edge, and Higgins is a proven comfort to Baker.

I used that word because peen used words like "bully" and "gorilla" to paint an unflattering picture of Dorsey. I didn't yell at peen. I didn't call him a liar. I didn't swear at him. Instead, I posted an alternative opinion that attempted to match his tone.

Personally, I think it is good to have various opinions on topics. However, if one group continues to paint a picture of Dorsey by using words like "bully" and "gorilla," then perhaps they shouldn't expect kind words directed towards the regime that replaced him, some of them who were already inside the building.

I'll try to leave it there. You can have the last word and I'm good w/that.

I agree w/you. I like Higgins. I championed us drafting him back in the day. He started off slow, but has shown improvement. I don't think he is a #1 or 2, but I think he can contribute. Hopefully, the relationship between he and the new coaching staff is a good one.

j/c


I'm wondering why there's been 3 pages of assumption that either or both sides have taken extreme positions when it comes to Joe.. .either Berry clearly low balled him or that Joe is clearly asking for too much?

There's any number of reasons he hasn't been signed (yet).

Maybe they agree on the numbers but not the structure?

Maybe Berry did make an offer that Joe's team feels is ...ok... but just ok and given his consistent level of play and Pro Bowl considerations, they feel like he could get more?

While I'm sure they have people who gauge what the going rates in upcoming FA periods are, the market isn't set until people start signing. And who else does Joe's agent represent? Is Joe Schobert the guy want setting the base market price for this up coming year?

Good post. I agree w/your take on this. I am not blaming Berry for allowing Joe to test the market. Joe's agent might be asking for too much money. Berry might eventually sign him. Maybe they don't think Joe is very good. We just don't know.

My contention is all of those things were also true when Dorsey was here, yet he was criticized a lot more than Berry has been.

At the end of the day, I hope the Browns keep Joe because I think he is a good player. But, as you said.......we really don't know the particulars of the situation.

Nobody knows, any anyone who does ain’t talking.
It’s always tough from a view outside the circle to figure out what is going on. Just as it’s impossible to tell what happened in a negotiation the with fails or succeeds, if you weren’t there it’s all conjecture.

I have to disagree on part of your post bro. IMO the 3rd, 4th, and 5th receivers are all very important. What happens when we have injuries at WR. OBJ has been hurt a lot the last few years. Right now we will have a HUGE drop off if either OBJ or Landry gets hurt again. (Which with our luck will happen to both of them.) Right now that would make our starters Hodge, and either Ratley or Taylor. That's a scary thought for me.

I truly feel it is a good strategy by the FO. They let Joe look around, let the market set his price, then come back with an offer. If they do it having discussed it with his team, and illustrated it with their desire to have him on the Browns, it’s a totally transparent situation, and Joe will be the one to decide, as it should be.

A testament to his success. Being good isn't reserved for the aged.

But yes, we will see.

I don't disagree. I didn't insult you. I try not to get snarky, especially if I hold the person in high esteem as I do, you even when we disagree. I only bark at you and several others only on rare occasions. Even brothers get in to fights now and then. All's good here. You don't have to question my motives towards you.

I will say this though, you need to let a little more just bounce off. Even back in the Couch days I didn't call people names....well, other than players. Timid Couch and Chump Thompson are a couple that come to mind.

And neither does anyone else spreading their special brand of BS.

my bad didnt see the Draft Message Board

Consider it done.

::looks at a set of thumb screws::

We don't believe in pardons here..

Everyone who has paid attention pretty much already knows the answer to this. There was a power struggle between Andy Reid and Dorsey. Since Dorsey had already built a great team for Reid to coach, ownership decided to stick with Reid. When the HC tries to make a power play on the GM something has to give.

Since you have been so hell bent on using this as one of your claims Dorsey doesn't work well with others I thought a little clarity might help. But I doubt it.

#keyboardcommando

Or it could just be another bad hire by Haslam who has a very long list of those on his resume'. As you said, we'll see.

Good points. I agree.

peen, I know you didn't insult me or get snarky. I wasn't referring to you w/my earlier posts. I did disagree w/your opinion and tried to manipulate language to match your tone, and I don't have any sort of a problem w/us disagreeing.

I'd like to see Higgins re-signed.

I believe Higgins is a player on the rise. The Browns drafted him, invested in him, developed him, and he has made plays when given the chance. Having familiarity and chemistry with the team and QB has to count for something.

Let's stop letting good players walk away. I get the financial aspect. But at some point, we need get creative to keep good players. Good players, not just pro bowl caliber or HOF caliber players, are important too.

I like Higgins but let's but let's male it clear what he is and what he isn't. He's JAG.

In his best season he had 572 receiving yards and 4td's. That's not terrible or anything. But it's not like there aren't a lot of guys out there that have done that.

The good part is that he's still on his rookie contract so he is very reasonably priced for a fairly productive guy.

Clearly Reid had more input/influence....

Poor Dorsey just can't catch a break can he??

Once you've already built the team, the HC is more important.

I think he caught a wonderful break. Getting fired by Haslam is a good look on any resume'.

Im done playin football! I just wanna be an announcer now

https://twitter.com/obj/status/1233833537159208960

You're finally admitting that Dorsey was a bad hire?

Haslam has no clue what he's doing. The fact that he fired you is a better indicator than the fact he hired you. I mean unless you can't even get a job in the NFL anymore and had to move on to something else.

Lot easier on the knees.

i would too.

i mean damn OBJ's contract is nice, but Romo just got 17 mill a year to call the games! man oh man thats a pay day!

Are we talking about Dorsey still?

I don't mind Romo calling a game. My wife can't stand him though.

i've been noticing that Romo is a hit or miss depending on who you ask. whats the flaw in his calls for her?

i like romo, but sometimes i hate how he damn near calls the play before it happens. i mean...thats what makes him great to begin with but its annoying sometimes.

Wife just can't stand his voice. And insight. I like his insight, and I think it's great that he, as what I would call an average q.b., can offer that insight.

I'd take Romo over Chris Collinsworth ANY day

Does being unemployed but not yet looking outside the NFL count as being in demand? Asking for a friend

Being paid millions for staying home waiting for the perfect opportunity is the smart thing to do as of now. Tell your friend.

Indeed.

I can't stand him either.

Sounds like a high school kid at a high school dance.

"I think he's going to ask her out...oohhh, he's inching closer...he should really go in for a kiss here...oohhh I don't know...the other guy is playing back seeing if he's going to make a move...oohhh...ahhh...ohhhh...I don't know...I don't know..."

Crikey, it's just about the worst.

I heard a quote the other day that said something like: Tony Romo is getting paid more to talk about Dak Prescott playing the game than Dak is for playing the game.

I like Romo, though. I love his intelligence and insight. His voice isn't very good and his delivery is very unpolished. However, he has a nice sense of humor and he gives us a great perspective in regards to strategy. I enjoy the strategy of football.

That's exactly what he sounds like... especially during video reviews.

So he couldn't work well with the head coach.

Or, Andy Reid does not play well when he isn't the man in charge, making football decisions....

I slightly disagree ... he’s a high end JAG ... he’s way overrated on here for the most part ... but he is what i consider a high end JAG for two reasons ....

1. He has height ...
2. He catches EVERYTHING ...A trait i personally value very much ..

Andy Reid won a power struggle in Phili when he went against Banner ...

Andy Reid lost a power struggle to Howie in Phili ....

Andy Reid won a power struggle vs KJ in KC ...

Don’t forget the 2nd half of one of the equations ...

Who knows what happened here .... HUE didn’t get along with the analytics crew either ... As for KJ ... some want to make him out to have done very little to nothing here ... just shows their ignorance on that subject IMO ... its “cool” to trash KJ right now ..

About the only improvement i see as of right now with this bunch ... all 3 levels are on the same page .... Kev is one of them ....

Thats good but is WAY OVERRATED on how well they’ll do ... getting along helps but its not even close to the be all end all .... how much talent Andy can bring along with who Bake really is will determine how good we’ll be moving forward ...

And if they did that, Berry is nothing more than a figure head... d

In the end, I supposed it doesn't matter. It's an argument that just goes round and round.

The last time we heard that was when Shanny asked out of Cleveland. He was said to be a "me" person and team would be so much better off w/out him because they would all be working together.

Well, they only won 3 games the next year which was down from 7. Teams came out and said things about not wanting to trade w/them because there were too many chefs in the kitchen. Deals would be in place and then they weren't. Sashi went to Haslam w/his plan and Farmer was gone. The new FO and coaching staff got to the point where they weren't even talking to one another.

Kum ba yah!


PS: I am not predicting that history will repeat itself. I am simply reiterating your point that the "working together" thing is overrated.

if Haslam cared about winning, he would have hired Saleh not Stefanski.

I do agree that the whole "working together" can be as my kids like to say "cringy"... but in the absence of that, above all you have to have all parties conducting themselves in a professional manner, putting the job first. I've worked with people whom I couldn't stand, yet we were able to accomplish a helluva lot.


Regardless of what Haslam has done, the Brown's organizational history has been marred with too many incidents of people key to turning things around not being professional and putting the job first.

If Haslam cared about winning, he would have rolled with Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith. He would have let Depo's contract quietly expire and agreed to remain friends and exchange Christmas cards every year.

The difference between a Depo-led regime and a Dorsey-led regime is Haslam's level of involvement. No way Dorsey was going to allow Haslam to have influence and control over his regime. With Depo, Haslam gets to be involved in more decisions.

Haslam, the guy who either didn't know his trucking company was committing crimes or was complicit in it and who hasn't had a single winning season is the NFL, is neck deep involved with how the Browns will conduct business.

The crash and burn is going to be glorious this year.

Agreed. I think it all goes back to Haslam. It's like he creates these conflicts. I don't think it's intentional, but it's been a constant theme.

Every once in awhile, I go back and re-read the Seth Wickersham article about the inner workings of the Browns. There is so much there to unpack and I get that most didn't take the time to read it thoroughly, but I find it fascinating, like watching a building being demolished by explosives.

Haslam is the web that is woven throughout the article. It's amazing how many times I would be left shaking my head in wonderment.

I agree Haslam is the root cause of the pain and dysfunction in Berea since he arrived. I think suggesting he isn't trying to win is a fan fallacy born out of frustration. Hope he got it right this time - and if he didn't I hope he sells the dang team.

Out of curiosity what do you have to support this conclusion?

All 3 of them were here together. By any account Dorsey, outside of inheriting Hue had run of the table and got what he wanted up until it came to pay the tab at the end of Freddie's failed season.

I would definitely be interested in any examples of DePo or even Haslam for that matter getting in his way. Given the level of autonomy Dorsey already had and the results, I'm just having a hard time understanding how continuing to keep him in charge, in a structure where he would be left unchecked would be a better situation.

That Dorsey led a regime, and Depo never has and still isn't.

The thief cares about winning .. he just thinks/wants to be in the middle of things and has no clue THAT HE’S THE REASON WERE NOT WINNING ... he thinks he’s the glue needed to hold things together ...

He micro manages everything and thinks that’s the only way for success ... witch is really incredible seeing as how he allegedly learned from his time with the stilers ... he clearly thinks the Rooney’s way of doing thins isn’t good enough for him ...

He’s got this .. ...

Or the HC couldn't work well with him. See how easy it is to just say something?

Good take. Of course he wants to win. He reluctantly took a back seat to Dorsey last year. But, he jumped right in when things didn't go well this year and got rid of Dorsey and company.

I said this earlier on one of the threads: Please read Seth Wickershams' article on the Browns and pay attention to all the Haslam references. It paints a very clear picture.

I am just mad at myself because I actually believed in the dude when he took over and I defended him.

I'm sorry. Haslam does not care about winning. If he did, he would hire good people and get out of the way, recognizing that his involvement and management style has left an unprecedented trail of collateral damage. Haslam very much wants to be hands on. Of course he would like to win while being hands on. That's not the same as wanting to win.

Haslam is the root of the problem in the sense that he's drawn to self-centered egomaniacs like himself. He thinks that's a sign of being a great leader because he thinks he's a great leader. Manziel, Hue, Dorsey are the Haslams of their respective positions.The problem with self centered egomaniacs is that they inevitably bump heads when they come together with others like them. Instead of listening to smart people, they like to try to prove that they are smarter than them and fail miserably. Maybe Haslam has finally been humbled a bit and realized working with the smart guy works better than trying to prove him wrong. Fortunately, Depo isn't a self-centered egomaniac, so he hasn't ticked off Haslam yet, and he finally seems to have convinced Jimmy to hire guys that don't seem to be self-centered egomaniacs. There's only room for one, and hopefully we can keep him distracted with uniforms and stadium/facility upgrades for awhile while the team-oriented guys get to work on the roster/actual football.


...Yeah, that might be a little hyperbolic.

Disagree. If Haslam did not care about winning he'd never have fired anyone. And I would not say he wants to be hands on as much as he just wants to know what's going on with his football team.

I'd taking spooning out my eyes to Collingsworth

I agree. Well said.

People can say a lot of things about Jimmy, but not wanting to win is about as far from the truth as possible.

I don't even think he is that hands on. No more than most owners. We just don't know much about other owners who aren't winning Super Bowls.

I don't think Jimmy is close to guys like Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder in DC.

If you disagree then you have to acknowledge he's too stupid to figure it out. Either he doesn't care about winning or he does and is too stupid to figure it out...one of those is an absolute truth, and they are both bad.

There's no gray here.

Sorry man, anybody who turns maybe 9 gas stations in east Tn. and SW Virginia his father operated in to a country wide travel center with maybe 800 units isn't stupid. Not even country wide. They operate in Canada.

Stay real.


Just saying...

Agree.

IMO Jimmy's problem is probably more on over-thinking problems, thinking there is a simple quick answer. Which is not usually the case in the NFL, when it comes to a struggling team. Too many variables and moving parts.

That seems a bit harsh.

That's where people seem to have a problem. Creating a winning product takes a lot more than marketing other people's products. As Haslam said in his opening press conference, "It's a marketing world".

Only in the NFL, you have to build a quality product to market.

Apples and oranges.

I agree with you that doesn't make him stupid. It just makes him good at marketing and terrible at building a football team.

I am not sure those things are polar opposites.

I wouldn't call him stupid, but I would certainly agree that he's made some mistakes. I believe he can figure it out, and perhaps at times he may not have known exactly what he's doing. But that is not the same thing as being stupid.

I believe he realizes the importance of continuity.

I also believe he's found people he can trust within the organization.

We are heading in the right direction.

In retail, the structure is often more important than the people. The right locations are important. The right resource providers/raw goods matter.

In football, the people are more important than the structure.

You can get away with disinterested people running registers and executives with poor people skills because they aren't in the same building with their subordinates.

When everyone has to be motivated and working together, and they are stuck in close proximity, people skills become much more important.

Structure is still important. Skills and talents are also important. But, being a bunch of parts of the team is the most important. One person can't hijack the bus and do it all alone.

When that person has no concrete plan, it also hurts. When a person says the plan is one thing and then gets pieces that don't fit that plan (i.e, planning to tear things down to the studs and then hiring Hue, wanting a tough hardworking team and drafting Manziel, wanting a collaborative effort and hiring Dorsey, etc.), it doesn't work.

I am sorry as well. But just because you are very talented and building and marketing gas stations - doesn't mean you are that good at building or maintaining an NFL Franchise.

Yep, only Jimmah has the worst record of any modern sports team owner. (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL)

He can't even say that his record is better than Ted Stepian ... and the NBA put a rule in place to prevent another from following his stupidity.

Even Beilein, who was a massive failure as a coach for the Cavaliers, has a better winning % than Haslem. Bear in mind that the NFL is set up for teams to win in cycles. Obviously some are better, and some are worse, and some are a laughingstock like Jimmah.

I wonder when the NFL will institute "The Haslem rule"? In the meantime, Haslem should contractually fire himself. He is the root cause of all of this mess. He'll never do it though .... because of that massive Jimmah ego.

I know in your post that you seem to point fingers at certain individuals according to how you see things. On that we certainly won't agree.

But the bottom line is we both agree that the structure is totally different and success at one certainly has nothing to do with success at the other.

I'm not pointing fingers at anybody different. I'm pointing out that most people are pointing at Haslam for the wrong reasons.

He took over a mess of a team. It was going to be a struggle. People act like he ran the Patriots into the ground. A broken team is a bad place to learn on the job. If everyone was starting from scratch, the "you are what your record says you are" argument might have a point. Unfortunately, Haslam (and Depo) started in the middle of a raging dumpster fire.

The fact that the success in different businesses isn't related doesn't mean he can't be successful in both.

It's easier to grow something that is working than it is to fix something that is broken. Bill Belichick struggled here.

I think Jimmy wants to win. I even said so.

However, you are being very liberal w/your comparisons. Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Who has the worst record of NFL owners?

2. Which owner has almost constant turnover in either the coaching staff and front office, and even both?

Thus, while he may want to win, his actions and record say that he is a massive failure as an NFL owner.

Really?

He has had ample time to turn the team around. In a league where it is literally setup for teams to become good rather quickly - he has failed over and over again.

They started in a dumpster fire, then dropped a nuclear bomb on it, buried it under a Native American burial site, then crapped on the grave.

It doesn't. But the fact that he is successful in one area doesn't mean he will be successful in both either. One has nothing to do with the other.

We shall see. Andrew Berry is on the clock.

I find that an odd way of looking at things. When you start at the bottom the only direction is up.

I could understand your point had Haslam only made a few hires. But that's not the case.

If you're trying to blame the people he hired, you must blame the actual person who decided to hire them.

It all begins at the top.

And no, the fact that the business models are totally different doesn't mean he "can't succeed". But it does mean that there's nothing that says he can. And thus far we've seen no evidence that he will.

Jummy has owned the Browns for what, 7 years now?

Thats what you call - a track record.

And the hirings and firings have gone at record speed.

If we traded Beckham, we might be able to get Becton and Simmons in the draft

We hadn't hit bottom, we were circling the drain when he took over. We still had to hit the bottom, which we did. Dorsey is the one who only could go up. He did, and then we started sinking again.

I am blaming Haslam for hiring them. That's what I'm saying people should be blaming him for. Not this structure and setting people against each other, not wanting to win BS. He made some lousy hires.

So it took Haslam five years to find the bottom when we were circling the drain when he bought the team?

Yep, he tried to fight the current. Eventually he decided to let the tub empty, re-plug it and start filling it again.

I'm hoping the new cracks in the tub are things we can fix without emptying it.

...I really need to stop using analogies. It's hard to keep track of what the topic is.

Well, here's one: Berry and Depo are the babies, Haslam is the bathwater. Don't throw the babies out with...

Wait, yuck, now I picture those two in a tub, splashing each other with Corona water.

Nevermind.

It's not hard. You seem to try and equate tearing a team down to building a team up. We both know tearing it down is easy and building a team is hard.

You, and others, keep saying that... I feel like I read it at least 25 times per week. I know you've convinced me (I really didn't need much convincing).

Quick question though. Do you think the tear-down was necessary, or was there a better way?

No, I've always said building a team is hard.

People complaining about Haslam are implying that building a team is easy.

Sometimes you have to tear down something so you can rebuild in its place. Rotted wood doesn't magically become solid again. Or maybe I should go with toxic water doesn't magically become clean without dumping it out to stick with the old analogy.

Had Haslam hired the right people to begin with, he would have spent five years building the team. To me that would have been "a better way". The draft, FA and salary cap systems make that something quite attainable.

After falling flat on his face in trying to accomplish building a team for his first three years, I still don't know.

We would have been in year seven of building a team now rather than in year two of a rebuild after spending two years ripping it apart.

So three years at failing to build a team, two years of tear down and two more years of trying to rebuild after that tear down was a better idea than seven years of building a team. Alrighty then...

No one has ever claimed that. Making up a bogus claim so you can argue with yourself is one way for you to win an argument.

We can't go back and do it again. We have to work with where we're at now. Hopefully these aren't lousy hires this time around, and we can keep building finally.

I broke down the timeline of how your hypothesis actually played out. And now you are acting all butt hurt about it. #notmyproblem

That's smart...lets trade a perennial Pro Bowl and HOF talent for two guys that are ? marks.

The big question is who would be trading for Beckham?

I think the bigger question would be what is the value for a guy making $15M per year with lingering injury issues for the past three coming off a bad year?

Jimmy is so easily influenced...unsure of himself looking for the magic bullet that is his short cut to success...

Today, Jimmy believes that analytics is his short cut to success in the NFL. It is ironic, because Haslam was a minority owner of the Steelers for several years before buying the Browns and Jimmy stated that he wanted to build the Browns like the Rooneys built the Steelers.

But Haslam's first mistake was listening to Joe Banner, who pushed his idea of non traditional methods of management.

Yes, tearing down your team, trading everything in sight, and restarting your roster going 1-31 is the "shortcut" he was hoping for. . . . .

Look at the Rooneys records from 1933 to 1971

GM..that is rather lame, even for you

It might apply if Haslam had been a minority owner from 33 to 71. ...just say'n..

Serious question..you into the spirits again?

Haslem has the worst record of any owner in any of the major sports. (winning %)

He might just be worse than the Steelers winning % from that timeframe, given the same amount of time. Further, today's NFL, with a salary cap, free ahengy,. and the draft weighted towards the worst teams, assists greatly in quick turnarounds. No team owner, no matter how poorly their team performs, is struggling to meet the bills.

You only think it's lame because I proved you wrong. What was the Rooneys record over their first ten, 20, 30, or 40 years in the nfl. THEY sucked, yet you want to act like they were great. You want to compare their record to the Browns and when I ask you to do so you run away, and ask me if I am drinking. when your posts sound like something a crack addict would post

GM...your response...LAME...DAMN LAME.

Do you think Haslam was referring to the Steeler teams from 1933 to 1971?

OR...do you believe Haslam was referring to the years while he was a minority owner of the Steelers?

The Steelers had a losing record for many, many, many years, and you said "He wanted to build the Browns like the Rooneys built the Steelers" So get use to the Browns losing for another 17 years.

Your words not mine bro.

j/c:

After reading the posts since I last looked......I have to say my head hurts.

GM...I didn't say it, Haslam said it. Jimbo was minority owner of the Steelers in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, then he bought the Browns in 2012 and was forced to sell his share of the Steelers by the NFL.

The Steelers were 12-4, winning the Super Bowl in 2008.
...in 2009, the Steelers were 9-7.
...in 2010, the Steelers were 12-4, losing the Super Bowl
...in 2011, the Steelers were again 12-4, losing the WC game.

This is how Haslam responded to his time in Pittsburgh...

"It was great training being there," Haslam said. "They do it with character and intelligence. They run that organization the right way. They build through the draft. They're patient. It's just the right way to do it. It was a tremendous opportunity to be with them."


So GM, was Haslam referring to his time in Pittsburgh?

BTW, concerning OBJ...he most likely about to get MONEYBALLED by Depo.

You posted



You CLAIMED to know "Jimmy Believes" Like you were inside his head, or heard the words directly. Then you insinuated, truth is you have been making up crap for a few weeks based on your hatred/disgust/ or what ever other bias you have against Depo/Haslam.

GM...if you were a horse, they would have put you down for being so darn lame with your responses.

You have said that many times, and I disagree. Building a company, or a medical practice is building just the same as building a rocking chair company. Just as Pilot buys gasoline from refiners near the Gulf, rocking chair person buys wood. They don't grow their own tree's. They probably buy it in milled blocks or even smaller slabs.


As far as marketing, for sure that is the game. You can build the best rocking chair known to man, you can have the finest travel centers on the road, you can be the best MD in the world, but if people don't know, you aren't going to treat patients, sell gasoline, or sell rocking chairs.

Marketing is part of building the business. Actually, the most important. If you can't get people to buy, you're sunk no matter how good the product.

So your saying were gonna suck for 35 or so more years ... YIKES ...

I don't know if that is what he is saying, I can't speak for you, but I hope not. The chances of me living 35 more years are just short of nothing. No they are nothing. 25 would be a pretty good stretch number, but still possible.

10-15 is probably semi realistic. But then you never know, I might not be posting at 5:30 tomorrow morning for a good reason. I died.


I hope not, but who hopes for that, even if it is a transformation to our next being, be it Heaven, Hell, or whatever else.

It's not simply nothing. There is something else in this process for us to learn.


Hey, maybe I learn we won 5 Super Bowls in a row, lost 1, then won 3 more.


Screw that, I want to see 3-4 of the first 5.

If you were a horse, you'd still be beating your own corpse.

I am basing it off of the track record of those guys versus the track record of the guys hired and Haslam's general track record, decision making, and lack of success to date.



Dorsey made a mistake with Freddie. It happens. I believe he should have gotten the opportunity to fix that mistake without any involvement at all from Depo. Haslam could have handled this a number of different ways. One of those was to let Depo's contract expire, thank him for his service, and commit to Dorsey and his team. I am very confident in saying that had Haslam gone that route, Dorsey would have had no issue moving on from Freddie. But because Haslam created a Depo vs. Dorsey battle in the building, there was no way Dorsey was going to give up on Freddie and let Depo win. That had as much to do with Dorsey wanting to stick with Freddie as anything. Again, this goes back to Haslam. He is the root cause of it all.



This is over dramatics. Culture that leaves him unchecked? How about let Dorsey do the job he was hired to do. You remove Depo and eliminate the factions in the building and there is nothing to worry about. Let Dorsey and team go about their business. The "leaving him unchecked" comment no doubt is rooted in this belief that Dorsey misbehaved and treated people poorly. Perhaps there were instances where he did. Should he have been more mature? I think all humans and professionals should be mature and treat it each other with respect. But if you believe in root cause analysis, this goes back to Haslam. He needs to set the stage and culture to set the people he hired up for success. He employed two factions with two different philosophies. It was bound to crash and burn. And it did. And Haslam had to choose. And he did. And he chose the guy who he thinks is smart and will involve him in decisions. Never mind, none of that means they will be able to pull off building a winner. At least Dorsey and his team have a track record of doing that.

People are getting way too caught up in these "Dorsey misbehaved" and "Dorsey was unchecked, running amok" narratives. He was not set up for success long-term.

Just like drafting and signing players. But if you draft and sign inferior players, or buy inferior wood, hire the wrong people to work in your rocking chair production, the product is inferior.

Coke, Pepsi, hot dogs, gas and diesel fuel are finished products. You're not buying raw materials and making a product there.




Yeah, nobody would know about the Browns and the NFL if Haslam didn't market it. Maybe when he figures out that improving "the fan experience" means winning games he'll be on to something.



You can't get people to buy a rocking chair that's falling apart no matter how well you market it.

I think you overestimate people. Some people will buy all sorts of bogus junk.

I've noticed that.

They will also buy that the worst owner if football is good at his job.

Has anyone ever said that Haslam is good at his job?

Much like Dorsey, he's been awful at picking coaches which is a big part of his job.

Fo Sho

LOL. Browns Homers are like no others. They will rationalize anything

LOL. good one

LOL. A sucker is born every day. I wanna know how 1 person shows up to watch this clownshow team play

I want to know how sad and empty someone's life must be to come onto a chat forum for a team and ownership that they obviously have so much disdain for.

.

I'll ask it again since it keeps getting ignored:

What are the examples of DePo keeping Dorsey from making the choices he wanted to? Give me an example of a DePo decision that made Dorsey look bad.

Because unless anyone can, Dorsey WAS allowed to do his job! He was measured, he was weighed, and he was found wanting.

I find your response interesting (and thank you for it). In the last 2 paragraphs you don't paint him as someone who should be in a position of authority.

In one you theorized that had Haslam cut away DePo, that Dorsey then would likely have been willing to move on from Freddie. Does that sound like good judgement to you let alone someone acting in a professional manner? Double down on a mistake for no other reason than to spite the guy (DePo) whom no one has shown how he actually got in his way? It's Freddie Kitchens, not Bill Belichik.

In the other you want to blame Jimmy for Dorsey not conducting himself in a professional manner. We've all worked for a boss who was terrible or a meddler or what have you. Their conduct is never an excuse for those below them to act in an unprofessional manner.

You may describe my post as overly dramatic, but if you took Dorsey's name out of your post you've just described a guy who is immature, unprofessional, and willing to double down on a mistake out of spite even if it came at the expense of the team. That is NOT someone you want in charge of any operation.

QFT. I wonder about that a lot around here.

I don't. They aren't bandwagon fans so they should get credit for that.

As for some of the posts... eh... every family has their Cousin Eddie, right?

I'll tell you how. I get in my car, drive 586 mile to the hotel, then go to the game, then drive back to Tennessee. That is how I show up to use my season tickets.

You sure seem to spend a lot of time around here for a person who doesn't like the Browns.

Get lost kid. You are the clown show.