DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons 2

I don't claim to be a football expert. Never have, never will. But I am pretty observant. You get better at everything in life the more you do it. It becomes faster and easier. I don't see shy reading defenses should be any different. You weren't born with the ability to read defenses. You developed that over time. I don't understand how anyone can say, you are in the NFL now, you can't possibly get better at reading defenses.

So let me preface this with a couple of things. 1st I'm not a Baker apologist. 2nd I'm no guru. 3rd I'm directing this towards you because you display a lot of knowledge. 4th this is not to start an argument but a legitimate question.

You say that his post snap reads aren't tied to his knowledge of the offense, correct? Couldn't it be though? If I understand correctly, most pass plays have different progressions for different coverages, say Jarvis, OBJ, Hooper if it's Cover 1 and lets just say Hooper, Jarvis, OBJ if it's Cover 3. Is it possible to be able to see the defense change after the snap but NOT be knowledgeable or comfortable enough to immediately know what read progression to change to?

Maybe it's just wishful thinking so that we don't need to find another QB already.

Question? The Buffalo Bills are 4-2 like us do you think Bills fans are calling for Josh Allen's head like a lot of our "fans" are?

I didn't take it that way, brother. You know I always appreciate your takes.

I think the difference there is that Allen looked bad his first year and has progressed where as Baker looked good as a rookie and has never neared that level of performance again.

Welcome to the board. I think you ask a good question. I can see why it seems that way, but I believe they are two different things while being linked at the same time.

I think there can be issues w/your receivers due to lack of timing, reading the zone coverages the same way, making hot reads and sight adjustments, and it's part of the equation w/throwing w/anticipation.

I think we saw issues last year w/those things. I believe that OBJ and Landry did not practice much and they never really developed a great chemistry. This is more true w/OBJ in my opinion.

I think the timing routes are looking good this year. We've seen many examples of Baker firing strikes to our receivers when that first read is open. We even seen him do a better job of trying to go through his progressions.

I think that reading coverages is about reading the defenders. The Safeties and LBers are your primary keys, but corners also have to be read. That's why I think using motion is a good idea because it gives you a pre-snap indication of the coverage. For example, if a S or CB follows the slot guy across the formation while the latter is in motion, that's a indicator that they might be in some sort of man coverage. That's not always the case, but it helps. What's crazy is that teams are becoming increasingly clever w/disguising their coverages and changing them up. There are times when they could play man on one receiver and zone everything else. They might play one coverage on one side of the field and then another on the opposite side of the field. Remember there are similarities between Cover 2, Cover 4, and even Cover 6. Cover 3 can look like Cover 1 or even Cover 0.

I also want to add something else. I have never once said that guys can't get better at reading coverages. When you hear a phrase like "the game is slowing down for me," they are probably referring to reading coverages. On the other hand, a lot of it is a gift that requires incredible processing speed. Think about all the things you have to diagnose in less than 2.5 seconds. Set a timer for 3 seconds and drop back while trying to keep your eye on multiple moving parts. And last time I looked at NextGen Stats, Baker was holding the ball longer than any other qb at 3.18 seconds or something very close to that. Maybe it was 3.13 seconds? That's not much time at all. It's a really hard job.

Let me know if you have more questions or need any clarification. Hell, feel free to disagree. Let's just keep it civil. And again.........welcome to the board.

Allen is playing a lot better than Baker. And he shows signs of improvement. So ... not the same thing.

Did you see the last two Bills games? Allen did not play well.

I looked up the latest QB stats at NextGen stats to see if Baker is still holding the ball longer than any other qb. He is at 3.20 seconds.

Also, to support your claim about Baker vs Allen, I will provide the following link and people can scroll through the different categories to see for themselves who is playing better. Also, what is not included is that Josh Allen can shrug off tacklers and is an excellent runner.

Here is the link: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

I am going to quote myself because the refs won't do anything about the continued BS on here..............but the above response was directed towards Cap, because I agreed w/his take and I was trying to support Cap's take.

He's 2nd all-time in rushing TDs through thirty games.
If rushers aren't careful they get stiff-armed and run over.
3rd and short means a new set of downs, no RB required. If he fails to pick it up on 3rd... he'll humiliate you on 4th.

Would have been a great QB for the AFC Norris.




I just call him Paul Bunyan.

can you explain why the Browns have had 17 team losses in a row against the steelers in pittsburgh

He didn't play well last two games, but ours hasn't been adequate every game either.

I think your question is dead on although I would say its not just a matter of the knowledge of the offense, its also about how much of that knowledge has been internalized. I think this is common sense as it holds true for any job. I've been at my job for almost 12 years now. I can tell you year 1 was not year 2 was not year 5, and that wasn't year 10. As we get better at our stuff, it allows us to better handle someone else's stuff.

Here's a Baker example: 2018. He had a simpler offense, did a lot of 1 read stuff, wasn't really asked to read the whole field. Clearly not a formula for a sustained NFL career but he managed a record breaking year. But having internalized that limited playbook meant he had to think less about what we were doing because he already knew what we were doing. That led to things like looking off defenders, making plays all over the field, having the confidence and patience to pull off some of that crazy play action stuff.

Now obviously this isn't all of it. There's certainly more he can do to help his situation. I'm not a stat or film junkie, but it seems to me that the safeties don't usually seem to be in too much of a hurry to tip their hand or make a break in a direction. Baker's got to do a better of job of trusting that his guys are going to be where they are supposed to so he can do things like look off the defenders, make some effective pump fakes... force that safety or LB to show his cards earlier.

Bakers got the physical tools. It's apparent he takes his coaching to heart. I think it speaks well that even the posters who get criticized for being critical of Baker recognize the effort. Even though as we've settled in to the season Stefanski's learning curve has become a little more apparent, I really do like the job he's done so far and I'm confident that he has a good plan for Baker.

IMO if his ribs are still bothering him, I'd really consider shutting him down for a couple weeks until they heal up. Not just for the physical part, but for the mental/emotional part. If he goes in to the Cinci game feeling like he has to make up for the Pittsburgh performance on top of playing Cinci, its only going to compound problems.

We'll see what happens to Allen - I am rooting for him, but I think proclamation that he's better than Baker or improving enough to be a franchise QB are premature. This year? This week he's significantly better than Baker. Is that book written/complete?

Allen is in his third year with a stable well coached team - and he had shown flashes of dramatically improved accuracy before the last 2 games. If he can maintain the accuracy I think he's got a chance to be very good. Accuracy is normally one of the traits that is really hard to improve from College to the NFL, so it's no certainty.

I guess I should also ask you to clarify what you mean that Baker hasn't been adequate. I wouldn't want to make any assumptions.

In addition to the NextGen stats link I provided earlier for people to compare Allen vs Baker, here are the statistical rankings for each according to PFF.

Allen is 6th overall w/a grade of 86.3 while Baker is 31st overall w/a grade of 58.6.

Great argument, maca. Maybe one day I will be agenda free like you. LOL

Apples to apples? The Browns have a better OL. They have better RBs. They have better WRs. They have better TEs.

The Bills have the better qb and throwing around the word "agenda" does not change the facts.

What I said is that he has been playing better than Baker. I made no long-term prognosis, and certainly did not use the phrase "franchise quarterback."

When I said Baker was not adequate in a couple of games, I meant he did not play well in a couple of games. In other games, did well enough to not lose.

It's not like I am rooting against Baker. I want him to be the answer. But wanting him to be the answer does not mean I cannot look at him any other way.

Fair enough - no problem from me. I only asked if you seaw the last 2 games played - because Allen did not play well and they were not playing elite defenses, though Tenn is just a good, well coached team. I didn't suggest anything more than that. It's all good from me.

Honestly at this point, I think you have to consider Tennessee as an elite team.

I'm not feeling good about playing them.

I live very close to Nashville. I would never have believed that Tannehill could play on this level. I think, at least what I consider an elite team is something that jumps off the screen at you.

I don't really see the Titans that way. What I see is a gritty team that no matter what seems to happen, they find a way to win. Adversity seems to be something that doesn't phase them.

Elite as in very few teams could travel to Tenn and get a W. Yes - they are really well coached and run.

I'd ranke them in the top 5 or 6 for certain.

Tannehill has Rich Gannon syndrome... A mediocre QB when he entered the league, but he has become very good.

It does happen, especially with the QB position. It takes time to develop.

He also got away from Adam Gase.

The Titans are definitely a top tier team and they are going to pound the Browns.

No wonder Baker is playing so bad.

THE REAL QUESTIONS...NUFF SAID

vesa...you got nothing but AGENDA...

j/c

I think we, Browns fans, have it wrong. We want the Browns to win, or at least get to, the Super Bowl. What we should want is for the team to become routinely competitive. Once we have achieved that, the next step is routinely making the playoffs. That's when you get realistic odds of winning the SB.

The problem with rocketing to the top is that it is almost always followed by a fall back to the bottom. We need to get out of our basement apartment. It looks like we are doing that. Let's not lose our minds over not being able to compete with the league's elite at this point. And make no mistake, the Steelers and Ravens are among the league's elite. We have a legitimate chance to have a winning season. We might even earn a playoff berth. This is better than it has been. Next step is to make the playoffs (again.)

We've spent most of the last 20 years searching for that elite QB. We have Baker Mayfield. He was a great college QB. He's in his third year and we have now seen his warts. He could still prove elite, but the odds are slim. But he has talents too. He has the tools to be good, if not great. That's better than we have had in a very long time.

My comments were made with the assumption that this is no longer an issue.

I believe I implied this with my comments about Baker. But there is, in my mind, another approach. It would have been great if drafting Baker had yielded a top tier QB, but it appears it hasn't. He is still a guy you can build a team around. And while building that team around Baker, you can keep lines in the creek to catch the big one. I can't help wondering about picking up Rosen as a back up. He showed real potential in college, and has had bad situation after bad situation since. As I remember, questions about his maturity were his biggest issue. Thing about maturity, it changes over time.

I would say that of the big four that came out that year: Rosen, Mayfield, Allen and Darnold, Mayfield has been OK. He seems to have become a high floor, low ceiling guy for some reason. Whether it is the league figured him out or something else is really beside the point. He has become a “game manager” type and not the guy to put the team on his shoulders. I would have no problem with two things: don’t offer him anywhere near max at the end of his current contract and draft a QB after doing extensive scouting. Also don’t want to hear about Watson or Jackson as other teams passed on them as well.

I wouldn't count the NCAA Championship. After that, what championship did he win?

Not sure this is the right thread but this article seems to fit with some of the earlier discussions here. I am not advocating replacing Baker but the topic was broached and I found nthis article intersting and wanted to share figuring many of you would enjoy it.


2021 NFL draft QB class offers the dual-threat potential teams are seeking
Eric Edholm
Yahoo SportsOct 23, 2020, 8:56 AM

A former NFL talent evaluator, whose team was bent on taking a quarterback prior to the 2018 NFL draft, was given his marching orders months before: break down that draft class’ eventual five first-round quarterbacks — Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen and Lamar Jackson — along with a sixth QB prospect, Mason Rudolph, who was eventually drafted in the third round.

The team planned meetings with all six and were mostly sold on the idea of using a high selection on one. They planned to use that January (Senior Bowl month), February (scouting combine month) and March (the biggest pro day month) to canvas the top prospects, split hairs between the various talents and determine who was the best fit.

What the scout noted in his pre-pro day evaluations of the top six was that their playing styles couldn’t have been more diverse. Comparing them, apples to apples, proved to be very difficult. It hit home more when the scout traveled to pro days for four of the six prospects, all lined up in a two-week span.

“You go from watching this strapping, rocket-arm guy [Allen], to this electric athlete with the loose arm [Jackson] … then the two California kids [Darnold and Rosen], and Baker was kind of in his own category in some ways,” the ex-NFL talent evaluator said. “Maybe Rosen was closest to that old-style pocket passer. Darnold and Baker, maybe you call them ‘hybrid’ guys. Whatever you call them, I just knew they were all so different.

“I turned to [another scout on his former team] and said, ‘How do you even stack these guys up?’ One’s a Porsche, one’s a Jag, the next guy a Range Rover … even their personalities and just their demeanors were so much different [from one another]. You had to be very sure of what you wanted most.”

The 2021 QB draft class is shaping up similarly in some fashions. There are still many months to go in the process, and multiple college conferences still have yet to start the 2020 season. Little is set in stone now. But the parallel between the 2018 and 2021 crops is that we could have five or more quarterbacks picked in the top 50 selections or so, with each appearing to carry a distinct style. It’s likely to lead to some fascinating discussions behind closed NFL doors about which QB prospect best fits each of those respective teams.

Even still, the majority of 2021 top prospects fit the mold of the dual-threat quarterback that quickly is becoming the industry standard in the NFL.

“It comes down to what traits you value and which [quarterback] you think is going to be a leader in your locker room,” the evaluator said. “It’s less about how they get it done and more about will they get it done with our staff and our players? And can we adapt to their style, their strengths?”

That evaluator now works in college football. He has watched Clemson’s Trevor Lawrence, who he says, like most of America, is the clear-cut top prospect next spring. He has also seen most of the other big-name QB prospects (North Dakota State’s Trey Lance, Ohio State’s Justin Fields and Florida’s Kyle Trask among them), with BYU’s fast-rising Zach Wilson still on his rainy-day watch list.

Lawrence is the nearly universal top prospect. And the fascinating Lance, despite his lesser body of work, is some teams’ second-highest-graded prospect.

But in the evaluator’s mind, Fields isn’t getting the proper respect.

“You can hype the other guys enough,” he said, “but why aren’t we talking about Justin Fields more? Georgia fans are; they wish they still had him. Is everyone else talking about him? Maybe, but I ain’t heard it a lot.

“I don’t know what other people think of him. But to me, [Fields] is Cam [Newton] 2.0. Just a little shorter. The set up, the throwing motion, the big frame, that tough running ability, and maybe it’s that No. 1 [jersey] he wears. But that’s the guy he reminds me of.”

There will be plenty of QB suitors in 2021

The 0-6 New York Jets control the race for the No. 1 pick in 2021 — likely to be Lawrence, who some believe is a generational prospect in the mold of Andrew Luck. Lose out the string and Lawrence can be theirs.

That’s no certainty to happen, of course. The Miami Dolphins started last season 0-6 with a minus-148 point differential (the Jets this year are only minus-110) and ended up with five victories, picking No. 5 overall.

What’s clear is that right behind the Jets at the bottom of the standings are a slew of teams who might also be big-game hunting at quarterback, including the Jacksonville Jaguars, Atlanta Falcons (depending on Matt Ryan’s future), New York Giants, Minnesota Vikings and the Washington Football Team.

There’s even a working theory that the reason the Dolphins promoted Tua Tagovailoa as their starter this week was because they wanted to give him ample time to convince the franchise that he’s their unquestioned future at QB.

If not, the Dolphins own two first-round picks — theirs and that of the Houston Texans — plus plenty more ammo that can be used toward another quarterback. The 1-5 Texans have that pick currently slotted at No. 7 overall, and their remaining strength of schedule is .580, the sixth-toughest in the NFL.

Assuming Lawrence goes first, there could be at least three quarterbacks in the top-10 picks in 2021. Perhaps even the top five when all the dust settles. There also could be teams on the outskirts of the top 10 — New England? San Francisco? New Orleans? — who look into a bold trade up to that range, depending on what the future holds with those teams’ veteran quarterbacks.

Where does Justin Fields fit into the draft picture?

Fields will make his season debut Saturday at home against Nebraska. He figures to be in the top-10 mix if he plays at or above the level he did last season.

There are skeptics, and he’s by no means a certainty for that range, even after throwing for 3,273 yards, completing 67.2 percent of his passes and registering a 41-3 TD-INT ratio for the Buckeyes, as well as running for 484 yards and 10 scores.

One NFL scout said he wants to see Fields do a better job of speeding up his clock, taking better care of the ball in the pocket and as a runner (11 fumbles last season) and showing he can make more tight-window throws.
But there also are believers in Fields’ skills and pro projection, in the NFL and beyond.

Urban Meyer, who never coached Fields at OSU but remains close to the program, recently told the Big Ten Network that Fields arrived in Columbus as “a runner that threw very well” but who now has elevated his game with his improved passing over the past year and a half.

“Now, he is a quarterback that just happens to be Braxton Miller fast, is as electric of a runner as Braxton was,” Meyer said. “That’s what I’m hearing. That’s what I saw. He’s a little thicker than Braxton. What you have, if it’s even possible, you have a Braxton Miller athlete that throws like Dwayne Haskins.

“And if that’s possible, you’re talking about arguably — you know, I know Trevor Lawrence is there and [tight end] Kyle Pitts from Florida, who I personally think is the best non-quarterback player in America — you’re talking about the best player in America. If he can actually do what I’m hearing he can do, there’s no stopping this guy.”

That’s quite a departure from the spring and summer when Ohio State head coach Ryan Day made it clear that neither Fields nor the other Buckeyes had convincingly grabbed the starting job.

Quincy Avery, a private QB tutor who has worked with Fields and Lance, said Fields has a style that makes him tough to compare to anyone else.

“He can do all the things that you’d ask any other passer to do,” Avery said. “But he also has this dynamic genius that sets him apart as a designed runner. You can’t design runs for a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL, so that’s different.

“But I also don’t want to categorize him as just a runner. He’s one of the best quarterbacks from the pocket in the country.”

In clean pockets last season, Pro Football Focus charted Fields as having an adjusted completion percentage (which accounts for dropped passes) of 71.1, averaging 9.6 yards per attempt with a TD-INT ratio of 33-2. Those were better clean-pocket numbers in 2019 than Lawrence and Justin Herbert, the No. 6 overall pick last spring, and just a tick behind top-five picks Joe Burrow and Tagovailoa.

“[Fields has] clearly made strides as a thrower and with his throwing mechanics,” Avery said, “but you can’t make the kinds of improvements he has unless you have a lot of God-given ability. He’s got that, and we’re just starting to see what he’s capable of.”

The fast QB riser in the 2021 draft class

We’ve been extolling the virtues of BYU’s Wilson, who is off to a brilliant start with his basketball athleticism and Mahomes-ian flashes this season. So we’ll let someone else do the extolling.

First read Pete Thamel’s terrific profile on Wilson, who has entered the Heisman Trophy fray after coming back from an injury-plagued 2019 season. The arm talent he has displayed this season suggests the shoulder injury he suffered a year ago is no longer an issue, and the feel for manipulating defenses with a variety of ball speeds, trajectories and arm angles has been special.

Then listen to the words of ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky, who calls college football games for the network and also is keenly attuned to the NFL landscape, appearing on the network’s battery of studio shows.

Orlovsky has called Lawrence’s games and believes he’s a John Elway-caliber prospect — a can’t-miss type of talent. Below Lawrence, “a bit more off the beaten path,” he said, lies Wilson. Orlovsky admits he has yet to do a deep tape dive on Wilson, mostly having seen cut-ups and highlight packages of him so far.

But Orlovsky told Yahoo Sports that what he has seen with Wilson has opened his eyes.

“After the season ends and I get into the college draft stuff and really dive in,” Orlovsky said, “someone I am very anxious to watch is Zach Wilson.

“Really, really special athlete. Explosive football player. There are a lot of things he has in his game when it comes to athleticism, explosive arm, movability. I just say, ‘It looks like what it looks like in the NFL now.’”

Orlovsky is more on the lookout for the types of dual-threat quarterbacks he’s seeing populate the NFL, and Wilson’s skills appear to be a hand-in-glove fit with that trend.

“Knowing where the NFL is headed with that position, he’s a guy that I am going to be very, very interested to watch going into the draft,” Orlovsky said. “It just looks like what it looks like now. It’s a matter of asking, how can we use this player? I just think he has a lot of traits that matter at quarterback right now in the NFL.”

There could be three quarterbacks poised to land in the upper reaches of the first round — Lawrence, Lance and Fields — and two more who are making first-round pushes in Wilson and Florida’s Trask.

All but Trask could be dual-threat NFL quarterbacks, and even he has some short-yardage utility and respectable pocket-movement potential. But even with a group that carries some overlapping skills, there’s also quite a noticeable variance in their individual styles as quarterbacks.

It should be another deep, diverse crop of quarterbacks come draft time, one we likely will debate for years to come.

https://sports.yahoo.com/2021-nfl-draft-...-125621854.html