DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons 2

The teams we lost to had coaches and players that have gelled for multiple seasons.


We threw our team and coaches together this year with no offseason or preseason. I think we will be ok. We are doing a good job of learning how to win. We just need to shore up our D next offseason.

When it comes to Baker, the person, I believe you actually believe he's a bad person and convince yourself whatever he does is bad. I don't think it's necessarily lying, but I don't believe it's being honest either.

Everyone inside that locker room and most people outside it knows he wasn't badmouthing Duke. And I wouldn't believe for a second that anyone in the locker room doesn't like to play with Baker. It's not about what you see, it's how you interpret it. You've gone Colin Cowherd.

Quit searching for reasons to hate and just enjoy the ride. Sorry that you were wrong about Baker. Sorry you are wrong about his character. And sorry you were wrong about the guy you thought was going to be good. No need to keep jumping down that rabbit hole, as they say.

I didn't. I was cheering and barking with the other fans.

Too bad we don’t play the bengals 6 times a year.

Baker 4th Q:

10-11 / 158 / 3 TD (all to change lead)

5 passes to Higgins for 90 yds.

This kinda confirms that you have to take these QBR rankings with a massive grain of salt.

1 game vs the Bengals switches you from bottom of the list to top-10?

Does that mean that's 3 4th quarter comebacks?

Great finish.

Keep proving me wrong Baker!

No. PFF will still have Baker towards the lower end of the Spectrum. Baker was 8th or 9th in the ESPN QBTR system before the Pit game.

Dan Orlovsky did another breakdown on a Baker pass on Get Up this morning. It was about the game-winning TD pass to DPJ. It was a positive evaluation. I just looked for the video but it's not available yet. I'll post it when it becomes available or maybe someone else has better searching skills than I do. I think Brown's fans will enjoy it.

Just catching up ... I guess it is not a surprise to see Baker have a great game and then the poster that hates 'Baker the person' post this. The poster who claims all of his evaluations of Baker are backed up by statistics and the experts and ex-NFL players (previously referred to in these forums as Bozos and Talking Heads) ... the person who couldn't stand the success Rookie Baker had so he had to start a "Baker the Person" thread in order to bash him ... the person who #cantwaittillheisgone (and who has never taken that bak even after being given multiple opportunities).

So this isn't a football take - this is a psycho analysis / psycho babble take? Another personality take? Clearly done in an effort to suggest that Baker's team mates despise him and don't want to celebrate with him when he plays well. . . . . please let's dispense with any notion that this person doesn't have an agenda and that it taints every single thing written by him about Baker.

Bottom line - it is entirely possible/probable that the poster knows football and can use that knowledge to accurately highlight a lot of the areas Baker needs improvement in (areas that we all recognize despite insinuations otherwise). But lets not pretend that because any talk in Baker is wrapped up in football knowledge, that the agenda isn't simply to hate on the guy whenever possible. As someone posted the other day - there is glee when Baker fails and demonstrates his worst failings as a QB.

The game against Cinci didn't end the discussions about whether Baker can be a franchise QB. They are going to be ongoing through the season and possibly beyond. Baker's as good as his performance is trending and if stinks again against good or bad teams, then the questions will be asked and his ability to read a D, make progressions, climb the pocket ... his processing speed ... all of that will be discussed and we *hope* to see steady and continued improvement. That's all fair. And I guess since so many people genuinely dislike or hate Baker - every time an issue or failing can be framed in a worse light I am sure it will be.

Sorry, missed the part about it being ESPN QBR and not what we were talking about before (PFF). My mistake.

I was expecting our O to walk all over the Cinci D, but that didn't happen. Their secondary, in particular, came to play. That was not a cupcake opponent they were playing yesterday.

Or maybe both teams are cupcakes.

Not much to say about Baker that hasn't been said. Oh, wait, there's always more to say about Baker...


Baker spent some time in the zone yesterday.

Earlier in the week he talked about "tuning out the noise" in the media. I spent the 1st quarter, yesterday, wondering if he would ever learn to tune it out in the pocket. I was tired of (at my wit's end, to be more direct) watching him play scared. "Skitish" was the word I kept using this season. I'm watching early yesterday and coming to the conclusion that he is like a heavyweight boxer afraid to take a punch. "Glass jaw", I kept thinking. If you're going to play this sport "scared", you will never be great.

Then it all changed. To be blunt, it all changed (in my mind) because our OL got punched in the mouth the week before. I went back and watched last night... Baker threw from a pocket that was one of the most secure I've ever seen from this team... play after play after play. It was just what he needed to get his mojo back. But make no mistake, our OL was out to prove something, and did, in dramatic fashion. Will it carry forward? That's up to Baker. He won't see many Sundays like that, these guys aren't perfect and he can't expect them to be. Hopefully though, "skittish" will quickly become a thing of the past. Joe Burrow beat the blitz all day long, Baker is way behind in this dept and needs to catch up quickly.

To me, the OBJ thing is both psychological and physical. He's a superstar. Even ordinary WRs will come back to the huddle and tell you they were open, it's the nature of the beast. When OBJ does it, pressure mounts... "you have to get the ball in the hands of your playmakers" is a real thing, but never preempts the truth of just making plays. Baker has let it preempt the obvious and has become a worse QB because of it. That's on Baker (and the playcaller, to a degree).

I watch OBJ run patterns and think Tasmanian Devil, so quick and scrappy, but sometimes hard to predict. Windows open very quickly and sometimes close just as fast. It takes away focus from our QB's eyes, especially when he is adamant about getting him involved. Higgins is plodding, methodical, not very much ever jumps off the screen (besides his incredible hands, at times). He is a much easier target for Mayfield. Sometimes the windows take a tick longer to open, but they stay open long enough that our QB doesn't let his mind go into panic mode when he thinks he misses a window, or is taking too long to see the next one come open. I guess now, the point is moot, OBJ is done for the season.

Hopefully there is something to build on here. But make no mistake, Baker's issues are far from over if he regresses in the face of real adversity.

Perception isn't a lie. It's just a slanted view of what you see based on preconceived notions.

Could be.

I wanted to mention something supremely annoying regarding those with a Baker Agenda (media and fans in general as well as posters here).

I've seen multiple comments and articles talking about how Stefanski helped Baker with his play calling and short passes - someone here talked about the number of passes at or around the LOS .... all this said in some sort of negative way as if helping your QB be successful is a bad thing. As if having an offense that can execute and make the D react to stop one thing - therefore opening up something else on the field - is a bad thing. It's nonsense. Two examples of the hypocrisy:

1. Presumably you all saw the same game feed I did. At one point (3rd Q?) they put up a side by side "last 10 throws" by Baker to Burrow. . . . . the BURROWS competitions were all short. He had a string of 4 or 5 or maybe 6 passes that were under 5 yards. Guess what no-one complained. No-one suggested that wasn't smart to help your QB succeed.

2. I watched a decent amount of Tom Brady and the Buccaneers game - good lord Brady threw an absolute TON of short 0-5 yard passes. Over and over and over again. No-one is complaining and suggesting Arians is dumbing down the offense.

I think many posters have talked about wanting Rookie Baker back with the long plays and him ripping it on streaking receivers .... sure that's nice. I'll take winning games, short passes and running the ball the entire 4th Q once we get Chubb back if that means we win and keep winning.

All what those stats mean was there was an insufficient sample size. Drawing conclusions before enough plays are run.

A single good game makes the stats better.

I believe from what I have read, that a good game with the game outcome in question makes the stats great.

Not every game is on the line, this one was. And the team pulled out the win.

Other years, the Browns would lose these games. And we would be yelling about the stupid dropped ball (remember Corey Coleman) or overthrown pass, or untimely sack.

We have rookies making contributions... 4th and 6th rounders, and that catch by Higgins was a thing of beauty.

The team is far more disciplined this year.

Like it or not, the Browns present a challenge to an opponent these days. They can put up a bunch of points.

There are holes, but there is progress.

Good points.

I feel like this team and the new HC have shown ability to win multiple games that in previous years we would have lost under many previous regimes. It's a culture and we've shown a positive trend and change.

A lot of this can be tied back to good clock management.

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere on here yet, but Stefanski taking the timeout right after the 2 min warning at the end of the game gave the Browns a chance to win.

It is amazing to me how many coaches across the league would not have taken a timeout there. They seem to confuse "give more time to the opponent" with "preserving time for your team when the other team can get no more first downs and a likely score is imminent". It is so simple and so basic yet so many coaches mess it up.

It's nice having smart people in charge do smart things.

Someone in the gameday thread was b$%^%ing up a storm lmao!

If KS had listened to many of the Posters in the game day chat - Baker would have played his last down as a Brown before he started is completion streak ... Some/Many were also bemoaning how Ward is not an top tier CB. . . . I didn't reply, just left as it was so angst filled during the game.

That is a prime example as to why I avoid those game day threads like the plague. So reactionary and illogical based on emotions in the moment.

If I'm actually watching live, it's hard to resist the entertainment value.

The one poster complains about everyone and everything Cleveland.
He predicted a loss in every playoff series in the Cavs championship run, and pizzed and moaned throughout every game. I can't imagine there's a person on earth that would enjoy watching a sporting event with him. He could win the lottery and then whine about the color of the envelope the check came in.

So this is the standard QB rating calculation that is based on %Completion, YPA , TD percentage and Int percentage.

With a great run game the QBR will drop. And that was part of the challenge... Give the ball to Chubb, and let him do his thing.

I would rather have Chubb than a statistically higher QB rating.

Agree - whatever it takes to win.

Here is a bit of perspective.... The Browns were 1-31 under Hue Jackson, and started 2018 0-2.

Since the 2018 season when Baker was inserted tor Tyrod Taylor, the Browns are 18-18-1 in those games. That would be 7-6-1 (less the two losses with Taylor) under Jackson/Williams, the 6-10 season with Kitchens and 5-2 with Stefanski.

The Browns have gone from pathetic to competitive.

I know that there are a lot of other factors, but there are reasons to be optimistic.

j/c:

Baker is now ranked 28th out of 37 rated qbs by PFF. His QBR is ranked 9th overall. According to NextGen Stats, Baker is still holding the ball longer than any other qb at 3.12 seconds per play. One area where he has really improved is his TD/Int rate. 15 TDs to 7 interceptions. I think he had just 1 more TD than interceptions last year.

A few observations:

--It seems like when we lose, it's a "team loss." Our coaches did not make adjustments. Baker was getting killed. OBJ is a distraction. The defense stinks. Etc, ect. Meanwhile, I read things about "Baker put the team on his shoulders" when we win. Or, the team 1 and 31 before he got here and are now winning. What? Why is it a team loss when we lose and not a team win?

Folks, who I don't even bother responding to anymore, can continue w/the attacks, but I provide ample evidence to support my opinions. Using game tape from guys who have played the position and are paid to analyze games is a better argument than "you have an agenda."

As a teacher, I always thought eliciting as many opinions as possible was a good thing. It is clear that there are posters here who don't subscribe to that theory. In fact, they try to shout down others who don't agree w/them. I will continue to speak my mind, but I am NOT going to get into the petty, personal exchanges that are so pervasive on this board.

No-one is shouting you down. Many posters are disagreeing with you.

No-one is using "you have an agenda" as a counter point - it is an observation anyone who pays attention makes supplied with other counter points.

As for Team wins and team losses - I suggest you go read the Jarvis Landry thread where it went from praising Landry to the team. I know there is a 95% probability that you already read that thread and choose to ignore it because it doesn't help the misdirection you want to post.



You talk a lot about being a teacher. As a teacher, I would not have wanted my children to be taught by you.

As for your football takes - Baker finally played a great game, was instrumental in coming from behind to take the lead multiple times. Together with the team orchestrated a winning drive with 1:06 left in the game ..... and your take was "Baker's team mates don't celebrate with him".

Go ahead an defend that and show me which "Experts" are saying that.

All of this post is 100% truth, whether you wish to engage or acknowledge that's not my call.

I don't see what you see. I see people who are obviously in Baker's corner, and I see people that have already made up their minds that Baker is toast. And then I see the vast majority of the folks on here rooting/hoping for Baker (which can, at times, temporarily pull them over to the first group), but acknowledging that he needs to play better in order to continue being the starter for this offense.

As for me, I'm hoping he can get there, but clock is ticking and this obscene amount of offensive talent we've assembled is going to be wasted if something doesn't happen (light clicks on for Baker, or we make a huge move at the QB position).

The answer is obvious when you break it down to the game against the Bengals.

And don't get me wrong, there are a lot of Baker apologists when he does poorly. There are also those who wish to minimize when he does well by throwing out other games to minimize a good performance by him.

But the comments about Baker carrying the team in the Cincy game is fairly accurate. All one needs to do is look at how we scored, how the running game wasn't being effective and without a great performance from Baker we would not have won that game. That includes a last minute comeback drive to seal the game.

I also find such comments pretty funny coming from you. After all, it has been you who has made the point that we need to see Baker carry a game. That we needed to see him come through when the game is on the line. That we need to see if he can put the game on his shoulders.

That's exactly what we saw last Sunday. It's odd that when people point out that we saw exactly what you have claimed you needed to see, suddenly your story changes.

You keep making the picture more and more obvious.

It was. Completely. Unmitigatedly. Irrefutably.
There wasn't one part of the team that did their job well - or even acceptably - in Pittsburgh. In either of our losses, actually.

If you can point to a unit that didn't suck, then we can praise them, but not only do I doubt this can be done, the rest of the team still totally sucked.


If you can't see that and cannot acknowledge that it truly was a team loss, and still attempt to hang it all on the play of one player, then yes, you ARE completely biased and ARE posting purely from the standpoint of an agenda born from your dislike of that one player. There is no middle ground there.