DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons 2

I agree w/your lists other than Trubisky. He is a very good runner. Nagy hasn't utilized that much. And Trub's downfield accuracy is really bad. But, he can run.

Obviously Jackson in a landslide.

Herbert is not the most mobile, but is doing fine.

I bet you it would be something like 26-6 Lamar.

There will be at least 6 GMs who are honest with themselves that they couldn't design an offense around him and would be concerned he'd get hurt in the long run. The Ravens are playing with fire with how much they use him as a running back.

It's getting to the point where people are confusing Lamar and Kyler. They both can run. Only one can pass.

It's a super short sample - but Herbert has really impressed so far. I am surprised. Hope he continues his level of performance.

Today, they’d choose Lamar.

Who knows what they will think tomorrow or in five years.

I don't think anyone would choose Lamar. He works because of the personnel and system they set up specifically for him.

Imagine if he gets hurt. They are up [censored] creek. How will they plug anyone into that system?

That’s funny, because baker has been the QB rolling around on turf injured.

j/c - I think a discussion on which QB NFL GM's would choose is a little pointless. If you'd have polled them at the end of year 1 it would have been unanimously Baker. If you asked them after year 2 - most probably unanimously Lamar ... as I wrote before the book isn't written on either QB at the movement. Paying attention to areas of weakness - and seeing progress is more important than anything else for both QB's.

This breakdown of Baker from the Cinci game was posted by OCD in the Post Game thread very late ... I only just saw it. It's good enough and highlights some progress by Baker that is worth posting here imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9w2cJsj_h8&feature=emb_logo

And as I have said before - it's one game and it doesn't mean anything unless Baker keeps doing these things and performing well -- and he will also need to do it when under pressure which he wasn't vs Cinci. But it's very encouraging.

Agree.

Lamar is a unique talent. The problem is that he doesn't fit well into traditional NFL offenses. The reason he has been as successful as he has is because Baltimore created a brand new offense to take advantage of what he does best. He was lucky to have been drafted by them because the vast majority of team would not have done so. I think NE would have, and Sf as well. Maybe Pittsburgh. I have a hard time thinking of other teams that would have been that bold.

Had we drafted Lamar instead of Baker, for sure we would not have crafted such an offense and would have ruined yet another Qb.

Ironically, he would have fit in here well, (personnel-wise) as things turned out.

Big hitter WRs, 3 high quality TE, a quality OL, and a pair of All-Pro RB, with depth beyond that.

You don't trust Todd Haley?

As far as Lamar getting injured, and I said this around the draft as well, I am not super concerned about it. Yes he is this but he is shifty and bendy. He does a great job of avoiding the direct hits and he is bendy and flexible which helps protect against injury.

I worry more about the big Qb's who like to run like Josh Allen, Cam Newton, and Andrew Luck. They are big strong guys who think they can lower a shoulder and take on a linebacker rather than avoid him like Lamar would. Additionally, many think that being more muscular is beneficial but a would tend to disagree. I think being more muscular puts more stress on the tendons and ligaments unless they keep stretched and nobody likes to stretch. In my mind, being flexible is more important than being muscular.

I feel I need to add this caveat. Many of you know that I am a doctor, but I do not specialize in orthopedics or sports medicine so please take this as my personal opinion and not take as me having any more expertise on the issue than any of you.

Honestly none of that matters without Greg Roman ... jmo

Greg Roman wasn’t the OC when he went 6-1 and went to the playoffs his rookie season.

Quite Honestly, if that draft was held again, today I would be ok with Allen.

I fear injury with Jackson, he is similar to RGIII. Shanahan ruined him. I dont think Harbaugh would do the same.

But Baker is on the team, and has not embarrassed himself.

More and more evidence is beginning to suggest that Kitchens was not the right choice.

This is true - but how competent / good did Lamar look as a package year 1 vs year 2? If folks are unhappy in Baker's play during our 5-2 start this year and are inferring Baker is the weak link .... how much of the weak link was Lamar in that 6-1 record? They had a spectacular D and a solid running game. Mabe I am totally mis-remembering but didn't Lamar do everything with his feet and look very dodgy throwing the ball year 1?

As I said - it doesn't really matter. Lamar really improved year 2 - it wasn't even close. Baker we know took huge steps backwards. Lamar started this year looking very good and has flattened his curve a bit. Baker is a little all over the shop and consistently inconsistent. I think it's a compelling and interesting storyline to watch for any neutral - as a vested fan of the Browns ... doubly so.

Didn’t they fire their OC midseason and promote Roman?

They made Roman the OC during the off-season.

j/c:

So, people were comparing Baker and Lamar and then when new questions are asked, comparing them becomes pointless. LOL...love this board.

Comparing them is pointless. But I am still going to do it because it is fun.
Not everything needs to be significant. Especially on a message board.

He did look super dodgy with the passing. But getting a team to the playoffs is all that matters.

We all need baker to succeed, but I’m pushing back on some false narratives. People can’t talk about the potential of lamar getting injured when baker has been the one rolling around the turf in pain.

Also, the passing stats means nothing. Lamar has gotten his team to the playoffs back to back seasons, and has a 3-1 head to head matchup against mayfield.

Baker is most likely ALWAYS gonna have better passing stats than lamar.....well except last year.

But what does that mean if we keep finishing third in the division, while lamar keeps winning the division?

Our QB needs to lead us to the playoffs before he can even be compared to lamar. I care about W’s.

Lamar has had the same coaching staff since day 1. Baker has had a revolving door of coaches.

Baker hasnt been rolling around the turf in pain. Our line has kept him mostly clean.

Oh, that must have been another browns QB with busted ribs.

So he had one injury in 3 years? And he wasnt even out. Not exactly fragile.

Yeah, I don't agree w/the comparison to RGIII. Lamar is wiry strong. RGIII was fast, but frail.

Both Lamar and Baker have been durable. I would not knock either guy in that area. Anyone can get hurt at anytime, but these guys have been available.

One thing to consider when thinking about Lamar being in such a good situation is to look at Baltimore's record before he took over and what they have done afterwards.

They were 4 and 5 w/out Lamar in 2018. He took over and they finished the season w/a 6 and 1 run.

Last year, they were 13 and 3. This year, they are 5 and 1. Kinda hard to argue w/that.

I have to wonder what lamar would do with the talent we have on this team.

Something tells me at the minimum, we’d have a wildcard appearance last year, simply due to his rushing.

The thing both baker and lamar do a lot is throw medicine balls. They love getting their receivers killed.

They do put their receivers in jeopardy a lot. I think that is because both don't see the field as well as they should. Both have a long, long way to go when it comes to the cerebral aspects of the game.

I certainly won't disagree with you about Lamar being the better QB. At least at this juncture. But to make it sound as if all of Baltimore's success hinges on Lamar I think is a false narrative.

For the same thing to be accomplished here, a few things would have had to of been different. When Lamar was drafted, Hue was our HC. Do you think Hue could have or would have changed our entire offense to cater to Lamar's strengths?

After Hue we had Gregg Williams for eight games and then Freddie Kitchens. So for Lamar to have accomplished what he did in Baltimore, you would first have to believe that one of these "great leaders of men" would have been able to revamp an offense to where Lamar could showcase his talents like Harbaugh has done in Baltimore rather than tried to convert him to a prototypical NFL QB.

How do you think that would have worked out with the HC's we've had in place?

I’ve never implied it’s all lamar. But we can’t keep picking and choosing when we decide the Qb position is the most important in the game and when it isn’t.

It goes back to what vers said a while ago: people will praise baker the most when we win, but then blame everyone else when we lose.

Yet when lamar wins, it’s cause of the OC and defense, and when he loses, it’s cause he can’t throw.

I’ve maintained the same position I had since the 2018 offseason: I don’t change the standards for how I judge QBs. And because of that, I told y’all I would’ve drafted lamar #1 overall.

So I dunno how he would’ve done had he’d been drafted here. But that’s not an indictment on lamar OR baker; that’s just an indictment on our history of crap coaching staffs.

So you're saying if we would have drafted Lamar and Baker had gone to a team with a more competent coaching staff that Baker may look better at this juncture?

Because I can't really make heads or tails out of what you said.

I think Hue would have made adjustments to accentuate what Lamar does best. He was the one who wanted Haley to incorporate Baker's college plays into the offense. Haley refused and said "it's a process."

One thing that no one seemingly considers when looking at those coaching staffs. Hue had success w/quarterbacks in other locations. Some praised him effusively for the work he did w/them. Haley had success w/other qbs in a few locations. Freddie had success w/Baker n 2018, but not 2019.

Yet, the overwhelming opinion of most folks seems to be that our problems were due to our coaches. Hell, Cousins played better under Stefanski last year than Baker is playing under him.

With that said, Baker had an excellent game last week. My opinion will change if he continues to play good as the season unfolds. Especially if he can learn to beat the blitz, not panic in the pocket, and make some plays when pressured. He had all day to throw last game. I think that is a significant factor.

Not sure if people have seen this, so I will try again.



Doesn't that seem to indicate that Lamar did indeed make the Ravens better?

j/c

Someone posted what the Browns record was for 3 seasons without Baker - and then the W/L record since he arrived. That was roundly dismissed by the Baker skeptics as being meaningless. Interesting how that comparison might mean something for Lamar when it suits ... smh.

I actually think lamar would still look better, due to his rushing. It’s a huge part of his success. Because he’s the better talent.

The problem with assuming hue would’ve done decent with lamar is that he couldn’t win a game with Kizer. Kizer wasn’t good, but we had atleast 2 games that we lost due to his poor coaching.

So I can’t readily assume he would’ve worked with lamar. But Greg Williams and the way kitchens was calling plays in 2018? Yea, lamar would’ve been fine.

I don’t understand what that has to do with anything.

We’re going by 2018 to current. Baker is the best QB the browns had since 99.

That isn’t really saying much when you look at the QBs we’ve had.

I took a closer look at the Ravens because the narrative around here is that Lamar walked into such a great circumstance and that he had great coaches while Baker did not.

The Ravens were 8 and 8 in 2016. They went 9 and 7 in 2017. There was talk that the Ravens were not going to keep Harbaugh. Some wanted him to come here on this board and others did not. Diam really wanted. Others did not like him at all.

So, the Ravens start 4 and 5 and Lamar is inserted and they finish 6 and 1 and make the playoffs. They go 13 and 3 the following year and win the division. They did not change coaches to improve so much. They did not significantly overhaul and improve the roster like the Browns did in the last couple of years. I don't think the argument that downplays Lamar's contributions is fair.

Just my opinion.

I know EXACTLY what it has to do with.

I'm saying that if we are going to dismiss the Pre and Post Browns win record with and without Baker . . . regardless of how good or bad previous QB's were, it seems inconsistent at best and more like a double standard to then use the Pre & Post Ravens w/l record with and without Lamar. Ravens were a much better team overall - and the comparison at QB was to an aging Flacco who has struggled for several years and can't beat out Darnold who is playing fairly poorly. . . I don't think it's a good barometer for either QB's ability.