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Originally Posted By: bonefish

When it comes to quarterbacks there is no shortage of opinions.

There is a constant evaluation process. New guys come into the league. Old guys retire or hang on.

I see people putting Justin Herbert or Joe Burrow in the top ten? Kyle Murray rated ahead of Baker?

How should a quarterback be evaluated?

Every quarterback coming into the league goes into a different situation. Think about Trevor Lawrence and Troy Lance. The 49ers are not the same as the Jags.

So when we look at the class of 2018 and we look at contract extensions. How should we look at Baker, Lamar and Allen?

Lamar won a MVP. Allen came in second last year.

Three quarterbacks and three different teams and situations. The Ravens and Bills have not changed much in three years as far as coaching. The Ravens dumped Flacco and brought in Greg Roman to build what is now "the Lamar offense."

Allen went to a new staff and they developed Allen and built the team around him. He showed massive improvement in his third season.

We all know what Baker went through. Yet Baker seems to be evaluated like three seasons as the measuring stick. Meaning his numbers are looked at in total over his first three seasons.

Allen is measured by last year and is considered now a top five guy.

Honestly the evaluation of Baker Mayfield should begin from the second half of last year.

The reason is simple. Baker today is who he is - today.

He was in the middle of a Todd Haley/Hue disconnect. Baker hated Hue. Clearly Baker's first year was not an advantageous situation.

Then along came Freddie. No need to go there.

Ok, Kevin arrives along with Van Pelt. Van Pelt worked with Rodgers. 2020 Camp and the covid year. Not ideal for a rookie coach and staff.

By the second half things started clicking. We saw the real Baker.

Now the 2021 season is close. The Browns are not starting over. In fact, we actually get to build upon like the Ravens and Bills have done.

The true evaluation of Baker Mayfield now begins.

IMO he will show up and deliver.


Baker is the very least of my worries he will be just fine. He developed so quickly under Ski and Van Pelt it's eye popping and it clearly points to having the kind of coaching that identifies issues but equally important what to do to correct those issues once identified. Last season Ski and Van Pelt had a plan for Baker and they got him to buy in and work that plan and man in the second half of the season he was incredible and I think that direction will continue and as long as it does I believe that the sky is the limit for Baker and for the Browns.

I know I have said this before what this team lacked was coaching and a plan to make it better. This team is going to be unstoppable by mid season, and the offense will be that way from jump. If the offense can carry the team early the defense is going to catch up and then, then we will easily be not just the best team in terms of a paper roster but the best team in terms of on the field play.

Say goodbye to the battered fan and hello to the battered NFL at the hands of the Browns. This time in spite of past seasons of hope we have everything we need to be champions for a long long time.; Buckle up our Browns are back.


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I totally agree.

At the same time I know how tough the league is. How hard every team works to improve and the talent that is out there.

The Ravens have talent and are well coached. Lamar is a threat. He scares defenses because in space he is a load to handle.

This season the Ravens have made a concerted effort to upgrade their receivers with the additions of Watkins and the drafting of Bateman.

IMO their plan is to get Lamar in space (out of the pocket) and have him throw or run from there. Not unlike what the Browns did with Baker on the roll.

I can not predict how that will work out for them. At the same time they have a good defense especially at corner.

Playing them twice in three weeks will probably decide the division.

I am confident. At the same I know that it will not be a cake walk.

In the past the Browns would play close games or loose to teams that they should beat.

IMO that will not happen this year. They will destroy lesser teams. There will be no comebacks once teams are down. And the teams we should beat. We will.


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I mean watch the commercial when Baker tells old man Tom Brady to "get out there."

Tom hands Baker his rings and the look on Baker's face when he's holding them. He wants his own.

It's not going to be easy but Baker will have some of his own. I fully expect Baker to be the "next Tom Brady."*

*Now let's get serious, I don't think there will ever be another Tom Brady but I believe of all current quarterbacks in the league, the next best thing will be Baker.

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If any starting QB in the NFL when thinking about a SB ring doesn't "want his own", they're in the wrong business.

I certainly think Baker is a good QB. Currently probably cracking the top 10 in the NFL. How much better he will get is anyone's guess but the trajectory certainly appears to be good.


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Originally Posted By: devicedawg

It's not going to be easy but Baker will have some of his own. I fully expect Baker to be the "next Tom Brady."*

*Now let's get serious, I don't think there will ever be another Tom Brady but I believe of all current quarterbacks in the league, the next best thing will be Baker.


We can always hope.


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Originally Posted By: bonefish

I totally agree.

At the same time I know how tough the league is. How hard every team works to improve and the talent that is out there.

The Ravens have talent and are well coached. Lamar is a threat. He scares defenses because in space he is a load to handle.

This season the Ravens have made a concerted effort to upgrade their receivers with the additions of Watkins and the drafting of Bateman.

IMO their plan is to get Lamar in space (out of the pocket) and have him throw or run from there. Not unlike what the Browns did with Baker on the roll.

I can not predict how that will work out for them. At the same time they have a good defense especially at corner.

Playing them twice in three weeks will probably decide the division.

I am confident. At the same I know that it will not be a cake walk.

In the past the Browns would play close games or loose to teams that they should beat.

IMO that will not happen this year. They will destroy lesser teams. There will be no comebacks once teams are down. And the teams we should beat. We will.



You have to respect the Ravens because they are very well coached, but Jackson doesn't scare me from the pocket or out of the pocket as well. he is not and will never be a good quarterback. In the last game we played against them last season I think he thru the ball like 6 times in the 1st half, if that tells you anything it should IMO tell you that the coaches don't truly trust him throwing the ball he is only a threat when he runs. He missed wide open receivers repeatedly in that game, and if not for our CB's running over each other he would have never pulled off the miracle he did. They won't be that lucky this year count on it.

The Browns defense as much as anything is built to stop players like Jackson, Hill, Kelso, admittedly it may take a bit for everything to fall into place and I still worry about getting bullied once you get past the D line but will track down the Jacksons and Hills we have speed to burn and that will shut down Jackson for good. Baltimore is reacting to us and how we are being built they see the difficulty they are about to face with us. But as long as Jackson is their QB they will never get past the 1st or second round of the playoffs, he sucks as a throwing QB and no amount of better receivers will correct his poor accuracy issues.

JMHO but I have no respect for Jackson the QB, Jackson the runner is all world though.


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Quote:
I agree the Browns are overrated. An injury or two to the OL and Mayfield will be exposed. He's been working under ideal conditions with the exception of horrid coaching until recently. Without high level OL play I suspect we will see he is average.


I just read this on the Ravens forum and thought you all might enjoy it.

It is sort of amazing how fans sometimes think they understand the success of a program but don't. I include myself in that as well. I know I believe things that aren't so but this stood out to me.

This guy wasn't paying attention closely enough to us to see we had guys along the line get dinged all season long and the guy we put in to replace them with held up just fine. They don't understand that because we have superior coaching on the O Line we are ready to roll in this area no matter who happens to play. But the guy thinks if we suffer an injury will collapse or Mayfield will.. Odd guy probably thinks he has it figured out though.

Ravens fans by and large don't say much about the Browns, I suppose that is out of fear of what is coming..........


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I agree the Browns are overrated. An injury or two to the OL and Mayfield will be exposed. He's been working under ideal conditions with the exception of horrid coaching until recently. Without high level OL play I suspect we will see he is average.
just read this on the Ravens forum and thought you all might enjoy it.

It is sort of amazing how fans sometimes think they understand the success of a program but don't. I include myself in that as well. I know I believe things that aren't so but this stood out to me.

This guy wasn't paying attention closely enough to us to see we had guys along the line get dinged all season long and the guy we put in to replace them with held up just fine. They don't understand that because we have superior coaching on the O Line we are ready to roll in this area no matter who happens to play. But the guy thinks if we suffer an injury will collapse or Mayfield will.. Odd guy probably thinks he has it figured out though.

Ravens fans by and large don't say much about the Browns, I suppose that is out of fear of what is coming..........

Outside of leading with the Browns are overrated, I don't think he is off by any means. 2019 is in the minds of a lot of people and the hype given to us at that time. We certainly were OVERRATED. So there is a legit reason to have that mindset again. I don't hate on anyone for thinking this, whatsoever.

When the Browns had a worse O-line corps than what we have now (specifically the 2019 version), Baker struggled. I'm sure there were many factors that played a part, but the bottom line is when added defensive pressure was applied and our line wasn't a top O-line in the league, Baker, at times, played as bad as any QB in the NFL. You knock out our tackles or the interior for any extended period of time, it will definitely show.

Regarding offensive line injuries, I don't know how this compared to other teams but our starters missed 7 of a collective 80 games among the five of them. That's not even 9%.


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While I am worried I'm setting myself up for disappointment, I'm having a hard time keeping my excitement for this season in check.

I am more than ok with anyone/everyone else overlooking us. First, there's a long and established history of us not being able to get out of our own way. I don't expect fans of other teams to really keep tabs on our team, so I don't hold it against any fan that's still basically saying "same old Browns". That also brings me to my other point (the last time an actual opponent said "same ol' Browns"). The competitive advantage of teams overlooking us and disrespecting a talented group is obvious.


As for the team itself, I can certainly understand why folks would still question Baker's progression. His career thus far has been up-and-down, and he's always had a top-flight running game to help him out. Other than his rookie year, his receiver corps (on paper at least) has been one of the better ones in the league. And then this past year his Oline was unbelievable. Relative to other bad/lazy hottakes, Baker being a product of the system/talent around him isn't the worst I've heard. I wouldn't expect anyone other than our own fans and beat reporters to watch and take note of Baker's progression over the course of last year, or to take note of the difference between his approach (we'll call it professionalism, for lack of a better word) between the KS season and before.


So yeah, if other teams and their fans want to call us overrated, I'm totally fine with it for a number of reasons.


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I have to give Lamar credit.

I was ultra skeptical about him when he was drafted. For most of the reasons you stated. His throwing mechanics were awful. He stood straight up with his feet very close together. He was inaccurate to say the least.

However, he has worked hard. He has improved. He is a leader and he has won games. He himself has won games. He won a MVP. No small accomplishment.

Will he ever become a great pocket passer? Most likely not. But in the system they have built around him. He can execute their offense. He can win games. And the Ravens are a Super Bowl contender.

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He definitely has improved.

I'll be curious to see how their current system will evolve once they have to pay him.


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They have invested in receivers adding Watkins and drafting Bateman.

They have been beaten in the playoffs because they could not play from behind.

They have worked hard with Lamar and are trying to develop him as a passer.

This year should provide an answer if all this work pays off for them. They will try to throw more and have him run less.

It may work. It may backfire.

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Originally Posted By: bonefish

They have invested in receivers adding Watkins and drafting Bateman.

They have been beaten in the playoffs because they could not play from behind.

They have worked hard with Lamar and are trying to develop him as a passer.

This year should provide an answer if all this work pays off for them. They will try to throw more and have him run less.

It may work. It may backfire.


I remember all last pre-season and early season hearing all the talk about how much Lamar improved "as a passer".

Never saw it in pre, early, late or post seasons.

I'll say that he seems like a good guy, his guys love him and follow him. But he's going to have to be better than below-average at being an NFL QB if they are going to go deep in the playoffs. JMO

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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg


when was this?


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Ravens game last year I believe. The night game.


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When was the last time the Browns beat the Ravens when Lamar Jackson was playing the whole or most whole of the game.
I remember, there was an early season victory in 2018, if my memory is correct, so my question is who was the R. Qb for that game, was it Flacco?

Have the Browns beaten the Ravens since Lamar Jackson took the starting job. The Ravens won like 38-6, large margins 3 of the last 4 times? No wonder their fans think the Browns are overrated.

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Browns laid a beatdown on the Ravens once during the Freddie Kitchens year. I don't remember the score, but it wasn't pretty for them. It was, however, a catalyst for that team as they ended up going on a pretty significant win streak after that.

The night game last year ended up being a pretty close game.


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Didn’t Baker throw that “longest pass” out of the endzone on a Hail Mary? Bout got a raven killed running into the Dawson bar full speed.

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I feel like the Browns Ravens and Steelers are in a 3 way tie, a 3 way race and which ever team comes in 3rd definitely misses the playoffs, based on odds.
Also that the Browns entire season could be said to rest on the play of one player (might be obvious who, might not), and otherwise 3rd place and no playoffs could be a real possibility, to avoid.

According to the article I almost posted yesterday, Since the Super Bowl era the 2020 Browns became the 8th team to make the playoffs of a draught of 14+ years, and all 7 of the others didn't make the playoffs the year after.


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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG

Have the Browns beaten the Ravens since Lamar Jackson took the starting job.
Week 4 of the 2019 season, in Baltimore. Chubb had 3 TDs, the first was a 14 yard run where he literally left 4 different defenders sprawled on the ground in his wake, each on different attempts to tackle him.



The third was an 88 yard run where he had 2 separate gear changes as he outran the entire Ravens secondary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cscDATXUbk8


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Someday, somehow I'm going to get that picture professionally printed and have Chubb autograph it.

This might have been a post for the 'Bucket List' thread.


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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
Someday, somehow I'm going to get that picture professionally printed and have Chubb autograph it.

This might have been a post for the 'Bucket List' thread.


Hell of an idea


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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
I feel like the Browns Ravens and Steelers are in a 3 way tie, a 3 way race and which ever team comes in 3rd definitely misses the playoffs, based on odds.
Also that the Browns entire season could be said to rest on the play of one player (might be obvious who, might not), and otherwise 3rd place and no playoffs could be a real possibility, to avoid.



You beat this drum last year too.

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Chubb is just so damn good.

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Originally Posted By: W84NxtYrAgain
Originally Posted By: THROW LONG

Have the Browns beaten the Ravens since Lamar Jackson took the starting job.
Week 4 of the 2019 season, in Baltimore. Chubb had 3 TDs, the first was a 14 yard run where he literally left 4 different defenders sprawled on the ground in his wake, each on different attempts to tackle him.



The third was an 88 yard run where he had 2 separate gear changes as he outran the entire Ravens secondary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cscDATXUbk8


I love this pic. Is there a high resolution pic of this out there somewhere?

*Edit - I found one! https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/y4pjNg...f4c43d7f3bc641f

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Mike Sando did his QB tiers on The Athletic.

Quote:
The all-star voting panel included seven general managers, five head coaches, 11 coordinators, 15 executives, seven quarterbacks coaches and five others working in front offices or in other coaching capacities.


Because it is a subscription site I won't post the whole thing but I'll post the order and Baker's write up.

Tier 1 - "A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game."

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Patrick Mahomes
3. Tom Brady
4. Russell Wilson
5. DeShaun Watson

Tier 2 - "A Tier 2 quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game."

6. Josh Allen
7. Lamar Jackson
8. Matthew Stafford
9. Dak Prescott
10. Justin Herbert
11. Matt Ryan
12. Kyler Murray
13. Ryan Tannehill
14. Joe Burrow

Tier 3 - "A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best."

15. Derek Carr
16. Ben Roethlisberger
17. Baker Mayfield
18. Kirk Cousins
19. Jared Goff
20. Carson Wentz
21. Jimmy Garoppolo
22. Daniel Jones
23. Ryan Fitzpatrick

Tier 4 - "A Tier 4 quarterback could be an unproven player with some upside or a veteran who is ultimately best suited as a backup."

24. Sam Darnold
25. Jameis Winston
26. Teddy Bridgewater
27. Cam Newton
28. Andy Dalton
29. Tua Tagovailoa
30. Jalen Hurts
31. Drew Lock
32. Tyrod Taylor
33. Taysom Hill
34. Joe Flacco

About Baker:

Quote:
Tier 2 votes: 17 | Tier 3 votes: 33 | 2020 Tier: 3

Voters like Mayfield. Most also see the supporting cast and offensive coaching helping him more than the other way around. Dividing credit along those lines makes it tougher for some to place Mayfield in Tier 2.

“Baker is probably in the 2 category, but you don’t really know with him,” an evaluator said. “You know they got a new head coach and they called it right, but they also didn’t do as much as they could have done with a legit QB.”

This evaluator compared Mayfield to prime Cincinnati Andy Dalton, but when Dalton was at his best, in 2015, his Bengals ranked fifth on defense and special teams. Mayfield’s Browns were 24th last season and still went 11-5. A different evaluator put it another way, calling Mayfield more point guard than shooting guard, but a GM called Cleveland the greatest threat to Kansas City in the AFC, thanks in part to Mayfield.

“He does benefit from a great offensive line, he has a great running game, but I do think he makes that thing go,” this GM said. “When Odell (Beckham) got hurt and they started to take off, I think that was because Baker could be more of himself. If you truly are a product of the talent that is out there, and are truly a 3, when you lose an all-pro receiver, your play should tail off. But his play improved when they relied on him to use other weapons.”

The schedule was a factor. Cleveland played a disproportionate number of games against top defenses early in the season, before Beckham was injured.

“Mayfield can throw an 18-yard deep curl route like it’s a hitch — it’s that easy for him,” a former offensive coordinator said. “The problem just comes in with the vision sometimes. He’s so accurate, and I think he’s settled down. They didn’t give him the contract yet, so they got the leash tight and should get the best of him — he wants the contract and wants to be thought of in that way. He’s figured it out. It will be about winning, all about ball.”

Mayfield’s 2020 numbers closely resembled 2019 numbers for Cousins: within two completions and 50 yards, with the same number of touchdown passes. Mayfield had two additional interceptions, two fewer sacks, two additional completions longer than 15 yards and a similar EPA per attempt. A common denominator: Browns coach Kevin Stefanski called pays for both.

“I think Baker is more talented than the guys Stefanski had in Minnesota, and then he has the leadership, he is one of the guys and he can extend plays better,” a defensive coordinator said.

Not that “better than Cousins” is necessarily the goal.

“I don’t think they see him as being special in any category,” a former head coach said. “He is good enough because of what they do. Baker has more grit than Cousins, and he is going to play better in critical situations. He’s accurate, but not exceptional.”


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Baker is not done developing as a quarterback.

IMO this year will tell more about him than any other.

The main reason is being under the same coach and system.

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I'm just trying to imagine what I might be able to do, if I knew that Myles Garrett had my back.


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You must have a big back.

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I am pretty sure Bake is a tier 2 QB at this juncture and I feel by seasons end this year he will be in tier one that was about where he landed at the end of last season and I expect he will pick up where he left off.

So far all the reports I have read on camp have him completing pass after pass they said day 2 he missed 2 throws. He is ready and the gun is loaded. He has been working at something this off season I would be curious to know what sort of home work Ski gave him for the off season.


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Just from a pure physical standpoint he looks ready. Looks like he is in very good condition.

IMO coming from college he threw a nice ball. Baker has good solid mechanics. He is very accurate.

Coming into the league like most he needed game experience.
Now starting his fourth season and being in the same offense. I expect things to really click for him.

I think it will be clear that the chemistry we have looked for will be there.

The offense last year hit their stride when the coaches figured out what works best.

Now they will be able to build upon the trust in each other.

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I don't have a problem with where Mayfield is on this list, but I do have a problem with some other QBs. If you're going to take that approach with Mayfield, then I have a problem with Lamar, Tannehill and Burrow.

clarification: I think the flavor text below the ranking does a good job in explaining why they put Baker where they did. What I don't understand is why they put him there and then didn't apply similar situations similarly to those other QBs.

Last edited by oobernoober; 07/30/21 09:11 AM.

There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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The deeper I dig into this list the more I believe it was made up by a moron. Great point...


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Mike Tannen-bum is a former GM.

His comments about Baker being mediocre is very telling.

He looks at Baker the same way Brees was perceived. To short, not athletic, average in every regard. No exceptional quality.

Well there is much more to playing quarterback than height, weight, speed, and arm strength.

I don't want to sound like a Baker cheerleader.

However, just looking at his story as a football player coming from college.

He was a walk on to Texas Tech and Oklahoma. Just that alone is like beginning at the very bottom. Then he becomes the starter in both programs.

College programs don't look to walk on quaterbacks to lead teams. He didn't just lead he won the damn Heisman.

A small overlooked quaterback who was not even recruited.

He has lead a team whose record was 1-31 the two years before he got to Cleveland to a playoff victory in his third year.

You can not have done what he has done and be mediocre.

You have to be exceptional.

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Originally Posted By: Brown to the Bone
The deeper I dig into this list the more I believe it was made up by a moron. Great point...


Quote:

The all-star voting panel included seven general managers, five head coaches, 11 coordinators, 15 executives, seven quarterbacks coaches and five others working in front offices or in other coaching capacities.

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One need only look at the lists to reach the conclusion I did.

Maybe that's why most of them no longer have jobs as well.


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