DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Covid ~ Wave After Wave ~ Part 6

…and a socialist commie.

way over his head.

Like the law of eminent domain.

According to the actions of your left-wing brothers and sisters, you're probably right...they love their canceled 'George Washington' culture.

June 14: George Washington, Illinois

Vandals defaced a statue of the Founding Father and first president in Washington Park, covering the base in red spray paint reading “SLAVE OWNER” and “GOD BLESS AMERIKKKA.” The perpetrators also placed a white gown and hood on the sculpture.


June 18: George Washington, Oregon

A mob pulled down a statue of George Washington outside the German American Society in Portland, Oregon. Vandals defaced the statue with graffiti and wrapped an American flag around its head and set it on fire.

Those Antifa mob folks in Portland are so filled with hate, they beat up the statue of an 'Elk' to show who's in charge.

July 1: Elk statue, Oregon

A mob set fire to an iconic, 120-year-old statue of an elk atop a fountain in Portland, which also had been covered with graffiti in recent weeks. The city removed the statue the next day, citing safety concerns.




June 29: George Washington, New York

A man and a woman threw balloons filled with red paint on two statues of Washington that stand on either side of the famed arch at Washington Square Park in Manhattan. One depicts Washington as president, the other as a Revolutionary War general.


July 15: George Washington, Louisiana

Vandals defaced a statue of Washington with red paint and graffiti reading “BLM.” The statue stands just outside the New Orleans Public Library.

What does that have to do with anything we were talking about?

So you think that has anything to do with the fact that one of our founding fathers pushed for and got a vaccine mandated in our nation during the revolutionary war?



You see, it's your side of the political aisle who claim that the founding fathers were infallible. That they're the example we all should listen to and follow. Right up to the point you see one of them accomplished something similar to what Biden did by mandating vaccines.

Then suddenly your fake outrage crumbles right in front of your face.

And what was your response to that? More fake outrage.

Thanks for playing.

That's a Mic Drop.

vaccines in 1776?

Does seem odd, doesn't it? The first smallpox vaccine was administered in 1796, according to this - some 20 years after the war: https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/smallpox-vaccines

Now, in fairness, the article DOES say "first successful" vaccine.
Edit: And it was only ordered for the military. And only some 40,000 got it.





Regardless, I've been vaccinated. How it will work?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world...s-b1916296.html

FYI

It was smallpox inoculation. It was actually far more of a dangerous approach than more modern approaches in terms of contracting the sickness during the process.

We have today’s winner, arguably the pivotal moment of the revolutionary war.

That makes sense, I was pretty sure that Louis Pasteur came quite a bit later in history.

So here's a few questions

What are the limits on the President's power to determine what people should put in or do to their bodies?

Can he only force actions through OSHA?

Does the requirement actually have to enhance safety? and who decides what is safe?

Can he require everyone to smoke a daily cigarette at work?

Can he require everyone to take cyanide?

Is this power limited to substances we put in our body or can he also dictate other things like determining what everyone wears to work?

Can he require that we all be sterilized in order to work?

Those are the examples we're using in comparison?

If you are actually intending to have a serious discussion on the matter, I would look at the balancing test in Jacobson v. Massachusetts.

I would actually recommend that to a lot of people in these discussions.

Yea, those are crazy examples, that's the point. There appears to be no limiting rules on the scope and breadth of this power.
And none of you can actually defend your position against these ridiculous questions because it is indefensible.

If a single person in the country can mandate that you take one substance without any checks and balances, then they can mandate that you take another substance without any checks and balance.

And its an argument that does not appear to be limited to use of substances. It is anything that this single person can add to OSHA rules without any third party verifying that it actually is appropriate for safety. Forced sterilization, dress codes, forced implants, and pretty much anything you can think of appears to be on the table.

I have my vaccination. But I have no desire to give up my personal autonomy over my own body just because someone else choosing to take risks with their own life. Let them take that risk, because this idea of OSHA requiring that we put stuff in our bodies benefits nobody that is vaccinated. We all lose.

And folks, Jacobson v. Massachusetts - completely different scenario. In that situation, their was narrowly focused laws in that case on vaccination, and there were checks and balances. The law was regarding the carrying out of vaccinations was actually narrowly legislated and the vaccination requirements weren't mandated by a single person.

That is absurd.

The basis is for the public good. Clearly, injecting a known poison wouldn't fall under those parameters.

J/C

It's clear when people read takes on something as opposed to actually reading the case themselves, so I'd like to post the link:

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/

If nothing else, I can say with confidence, if I walk into an appeals court with this case vs someone asserting "where will it end???" I'd feel pretty confident about my chances.

If someone honestly feels this doesn't provide precedent, well then your mind is made up regardless.

Thank you for posting that again.

Since it is actually the duty of OSHA to provide a safe work environment and 90% of those dying of covid are unvaccinated, the answer is pretty clear here for anyone willing to be objective verses being obtuse.

It is absurd. That's the point. It's a question of limits of power. And you have no answer for what limits the scope of those powers.

Using your link: Jacobson v Massachusetts was based on dispute over:
The Revised Laws of that Commonwealth, c. 75, § 137, provide that

"the board of health of a city or town if, in its opinion, it is necessary for the public health or safety shall require and enforce the vaccination and revaccination of all the inhabitants thereof and shall provide them with the means of free vaccination. Whoever, being over twenty-one years of age and not under guardianship, refuses or neglects to comply with such requirement shall forfeit five dollars."

In that case, narrowly legislated to cover vaccinations with oversight by a board of health professionals.
In our current case, the decision is being made using an interpretation of OSHA rules and executive power that seems to have no limit to vaccinations and the decision is made by a single political individual with no qualifications in health or safety.

Please, I am challenging any of you to take the time to put together a well thought out post of either an explanation of the limits of this executive power or a defense of why this power should be nearly unlimited in it's scope.

Debate me cowards.

I gave you the answer. It's the duty of OSHA to provide workers with a safe working environment. Last week in our nation well over 1500 people a day on average died of Covid. The vast majority of those people were not vaccinated.

Generally I'm in agreement with you in terms of "my body, my problem/responsiblity". But the math changes when your body is a walking virus transmitter, and said virus can have catastrophic impact on not only people around you, but our population, economy, etc on a macro scale. You have a right to choose what to do with your own body, but you also have a responsibility to NOT contribute to bringing our healthcare system, economy, education system to its knees.

Why should we be concerned about little things like that?

Yep. That is the whole crux of the argument. Your rights Constitutional rights and norms cease to exist when they impinge upon the constitutional norms of other people, let alone the nation as a whole.

He should ban red hats because they seem to cause brain damage.

Biden and Biden alone can fix this... he is the chosen one... chosen by 81 million of us.

But seriously, this is a pandemic killing hundreds of thousands of Americans. If the President does not have the power to guide the country through it, set rules, make guidelines, enforce research/treatment/vaccination for the good of the many... well then who does?

Know you all want to hate on Biden the way the left legitimately hated Trump but damn, let's not let these political divides continue to kill people whose lives could be saved. Would think that guiding principle of basic human kindness and the sense that we are all in this together would be enough to make people at least act like they give a damn about others and take basic precautions like masks and vaccines to keep us all safe.

This is my POV and the right's "libtard" hate or their "owning the libs" campaign needs to take a break long enough for GOPers to at least save themselves from this killer. Else this problem will eventually solve itself by reducing the population of the MAGA demented to nonexistent. And to be honest, I'm good either way. So this is purely a come to Jesus' moment for the right. The left really does not care if you and your ideology die with covid 19's irradiation. It's up to y'all to take this opportunity to save yourselves... a simple task and cognitive test which you are currently failing miserably.

I see now that you are making this more about the authority of the President to enact the requirement for the private employers than you are about enacting a vaccine requirement in and of itself. As far as federal employees go (of which I am one), I think that's a dead issue.

Your slippery slope argument remains absurdly obtuse, though.

It will be decided upon a marriage of the OSHA standards of workplace health and safety - which Peen alluded to - which pretty much throws out your examples in and of itself, to the standard set forth in Jacobson, where vaccinations were found to be neither arbitrary nor oppressive, among the whole littany of other things I pointed to. You attempted to distinguish it from a scenario basis without reviewing any of the underlying legal doctrine that was created.

So the first step in the process, I believe is whether he can enforce a safe work environment under OSHA, and I believe that is undebatable. Issuing an order that says you have to have a work environment that doesn't have knives sticking out of the wall would get no attention.

The next step is mandating vaccination or - the part that you left out - once a week negative testing. So, you're not forcing people to get into a chair and get a needle stuck in their arm. I acknowledge this will be where the real debate is, with the option for a testing alternative, combined with the Jacobson ruling, I do not think there will be grounds to state that it will be "arbitrary or oppressive."

Your part about not having any expertise and whatnot is not well founded. By that end, neither Congress, nor the president, should ever enact any legislation in areas of health, safety, environment, etc.

My dad used to say something...

We live in a society of 330 million (as of today). Everyone does not have their own 40 acres to set up a homestead and isolate themselves from the rest of us. If you have your own 40 acres then have at it. Just remember that you still have to pay your taxes. To pay your taxes you need to figure out where to get money unless you are living of an endowment.

At some point you may want to be part of society, then are other rules for the common good that apply.

Yes,that's actually what I was saying from the get-go. Why should I want to give authority of my body to a single person?

It's not a slippery slope. I would say it is an all-or-none situation. The executive branch either has the authority or it does not. And from your posts, I assume you also are supportive of the executive branch having that authority, even if the President in 3.5 years is once again Donald Trump?

So you would therefore support a President that could put in place a rule requiring all people to wear drab uniforms with no makeup because it decreases the likelihood of sexual assault in the workplace? - not that you would support the rule, just the authority of the President to create the rule.

You would support the president having the authority to put communications monitoring and surveillance into every work place in order to detect signs of mental illness?, not saying you support surveillance, just the authority of the President to unilaterally implement that surveillance if he rationalizes it's use for workplace safety.

You're going for a gotcha moment that doesn't exist, and quite honestly, you're making yourself look crazy in the process.

The President is whoever the President is. I'm not sure why you're angling for Trump or Biden and what that has to do with anything.

If you pulled those other assumptions out of what I laid forth in my post above and are comparing those to the doctrine set forth in Jacobson, then I don't even know what to tell you, man.

Elected officials from the President on down have many jobs, not the least of which is to protect and defend the constitution and all of us.

If, after consultation with PROFESSIONALS (meaning not Qanon idiots)it is determined that the best course of action is to Vax Up and Mask Up,, then it should be mandated

Unlike some damn fools, nobody is interesting in taking your rights away,, They want you to be alive to exercise those right.

Recently, I'm sure you've seen the rash of deaths of those in the news defending the right NOT to wear masks...

How many of those fools have to die before folks figure out, hey,, maybe we're wrong,, maybe we need to Mask up and Vax up.

I'll ask again.. if you knew there was a potential Child Molester in your neighborhood, what would you do to protect your children.. The answer has to be "everything and anything"

Replace Potential Child Molester with Covid 19! What's the freaking difference? You would think you'd want to do anything you can to protect your kids and family...

650,000 of our Fellow Americans (that should mean something regardless of political party) have died from this thing..

Get your Vax,,, Wear a Mask and quit whining

The Gotcha already happened.

Neither you nor anyone else on this board can explain the limitations on this power. You cannot identify a single check and balance on that power. If you can't do that, then it is effectively accepting that the President can in fact make the unilateral decision to require any employee to put any substance in their body and also mandate any of the other examples I mentioned, no matter how ridiculous the example.

All you folks seem capable of responding with is 'oh, that's crazy'.
Which, seems to me an attempt at being dismissive of a valid point that none of you can't dispute.

Jacobsen is completely irrelevant. Completely different law, different jurisdiction, actually voted on by a legislature.
OSHA is regulated by the OSH ACT, which has nothing to do with vaccinations. If the President can mandate vaccination or medical tests under the OSH Act, then it seems to me that he can pretty much mandate anything I previously mentioned as well.

You've gone completely off the deep end. This is a pandemic not some made up silly BS like you are posting. Vaccine requirements have already been decided by the SCOTUS. There were nut jobs using the same dumb rationale for almost every vaccine that has come out for well over a century. Luckily the nutjobs were overruled by common sense for Polio, small pox and several other deadly diseases that would still be killing Americans by the thousands every day.

At times I think you're doing nothing more than trolling. This is one of those times.

Vaccines — lessons from three centuries of protest

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02671-0

History of Anti-vaccination Movements

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/history-anti-vaccination-movements

The anti-vaccination movement that gripped Victorian England

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leicestershire-50713991

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

It sounds like you're doomed.

PitDawg,
You say I have gone off the deep end because you don't have an answer. If the OSH Act permits the President to require vaccines in the workplace, what can he not require in the workplace?

j/c

Got off the phone with my wife. My bro in laws mom, vaccinated way back due to her age, got covid. Hospitalized 9-2. Intubated 9-5. They got word today that the doctors were taking her off the vent on this Wednesday. Her heart is now failing.

Doctor said it could be 10 minutes, or could be 5 hours.

(I don't know why they are waiting til wednesday to do this. The cynic in me has some ideas, but, I won't share them)

It's real - covid. And yet so, so many get it and don't even know they had it. I have no answers.