DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Mayfield continued

Baker basically pulled himself from next week’s game.

I agree that Baker shouldn’t have been playing earlier in the season at his peak of bangedupness but I’m not sure Stefanski had much of a choice.

I'm not going to defend Baker who looked like trash last night. But in this image where 3 WR are open according to the snapshot - is Watt blocked or is he two steps away from sacking Baker? And how many fractions of a second is it going to take Watt to cover those 2 steps? Having multiple receivers open is great. Having a QB that double and triple clutches and doesn't trust his throw is bad. But so is having a turn style try to block the best pass rusher in the NFL.

It is Stefanski's decision who starts/sits. Look, I hate using hindsight to criticize decisions like this but when you say a guy is your best option to start and he begins the game with a noticeable limp it kind of invites that type of criticism.

Baker's arm is literally in a throwing motion while Watt is not pressuring him (with multiple open receivers). If we are going to make excuses for him on this play then there is no hope.

Same response to you as cfrs.

It was perfect for weeks 1 and 2 this year als0 - unless you don't think 81% completion rate is good enough? What happened ?

Obviously Baker got injured. I don't see how his injury prevents him from throwing to wide open receivers instead of throwing INTs or taking sacks. I definitely think the injury is to be blamed for some percentage of his poor play. How much? I don't know.

It is in the throwing motion, but the defender is already breaking towards DPJ. If Baker pulled the ball in and saw whoever is running across the middle he'd still have time to zip it in there.

What ever it was didn't change against Chargers when we scored 42 points. Nor did it change when we scored 41 points against the Bengals. Actually in both of those games we scored more points than in either of our first two games. I do understand the harness impacted his throwing. I still have no idea what that has to do with his decision making and missing wide open WR's on a regular basis.

Comprehension is an issue for you?

I stated Baker was trash. I mentioned he double and tripled clutched which I know he did on this play. I said I wasn't defending him. And you come back accusing me of making excuses. smh

It wouldn't matter if there was 5 open WR running 5 yards free - if the RT is a turnstile and the pass rusher is unblocked he isn't going to get to a second read.

Did we really? I'm not doubting this just curious because at times throughout the season I thought to myself "Where did the PA go?" Granted, it seemed like we only began to do this with some regularity towards the second have of the season last year but I don't have any stats to go from in either year.

It seems likely that the injuries affected the ability to throw, which resulted in bad passes and interceptions, and then those failures wrecked his confidence. That is all understandable, and maybe he could be fixed next year. We would all love to see that. We have no idea how much pain he was in or how hard it was to throw with that harness. But are the great ones so fragile in terms of confidence? It seems like he is streaky based on whether or not he "feels dangerous," and that kind of mentality is not really conducive to comeback drives to win in the final two minutes.

I think it would need to be reviewed game by game and not as a complete season because I felt like some games we Play Actioned a lot - and others very little. Be interesting to see correlation between use of PA and points success or otherwise throwing game by game.

Last year we had 122 play action attempts through 16 games.
This year we have had 108 play action attempts through 16 games.

So 7.63 times per game in 2020 versus 6.75 in 2021.

(Last time I looked the number were nearly identical.)

I cannot like this post enough.

Hmm....so not wildly different than last year. Thank you.

There's also the issue of him passing up wide-open options for riskier/bad ones or holding the ball until he's sacked. On the INT to DPJ, he had Njoku for an easy 1st. Then there was the one play earlier in the year when he had Felton right at the sticks with nobody around him, and tried to run for the 1st and failed.

Is this type of discourse necessary?

Baker's confidence is absolutely crushed and he has no answers. He no longer trusts what he sees and hesitates to the point he's either taking sack after sack or throwing late and off target.

It's like watching Rick Ankiel try to pitch.

Baker has Steve Blass Disease.

What's so interesting about the Baker contract thing is that there's no less than 50 comments on this site about what a great second half of 2020 that Baker had as the Browns headed to the playoffs. He was a top 5 rated QB in year 3 ending a playoff drought, set the rookie record for TD passes, took the Browns for 1-15 to 11-5 in 3-years and what did he get in return - his 5th year option picked up and no new contract. Of course, Baker was playing under undo pressure because basically, what Baker accomplished in his first 3-years wasn't good enough for the Browns to commit.

Fast forward to year 4, your all-pro right tackle misses the majority of the season, your #1 WR isn't ready to start the season and is a shell of himself when he does return as he demands a trade in the background, your #2 WR goes down to injury, your #1 RB goes down to injury, your #2 RB goes down to injury, and the experiment at LT (this poster tried to tell this forum that Wills at LT was going to be a disaster) is failing miserably and is fragile. Add in the fact that through all of this Baker is trying to carry a shell of a team compared to the 2020 team on his back even being injured at the time only to have a head coach that refuses to adjust his scheme and restricts his franchise QB to the bottom 25% of the league in passing attempts and yardage. Of course, the kid is trying to make the big play - what choice did he have? Bad decision making - you bet - but look what the coach gave him to work with.

Stefanski is a terrible play caller and his scheme sucks for the 2021 NFL. He left his QB on an island and has done nothing since he's been here to play towards Mayfield's skill set. OBJ seen the handwriting on the wall just as Diggs did when playing for Stefanski in Minnesota. Stefanski's WR's are just extensions of the offensive line.

The stats don't lie either. There are 14 teams that will make the playoffs. If the LAC and LVR both make the playoffs (they are still in contention and beat the Browns) the top nine passers in attempts and yardage will all make the playoffs. To do the math - 9 of the 14 openings or 64.3% of the spots are taken by the top passing teams. Currently, only one of those teams have a 1,000 yard rusher (Cincy). Those top 9 passers are averaging 587.33 pass attempts this season between them. Mayfield has had 418 attempts so far this year - 169.33 less attempts than the top 9 average. In passing yards, those same top 9 have averaged 4,485.11 thus far this season between them while Baker has thrown for 3,010 yards, a difference of 1,475.11 yards. The interesting stat is that Mayfield averages 7.2 yards per attempt. Burrows leads the pack at 8.9 yards per pass attempt, but Brady has averaged 7.3, Mahomes 7.4, Allen 6.9, Prescott, 7.6 and Rodgers 7.8.

Tom Brady has 264 more passing attempts than Mayfield this year. Mahomes has 196 more than Baker and Allen has thrown 183 more times than Mayfield. Before you campaign to dump Baker, ask yourself why a team would draft a Heisman Trophy winner who was a gunslinger in college #1 overall who broke the rookie TD record and have him throwing 30% less passes per season than the top playoff bound team QB's? Is it the head coach or the player? You can bet that if I can do a little research to see what Stefanski is doing in Cleveland so can any player that you wish would come here - do you really think a Derek Carr is going to even consider coming to Cleveland to throw 172 plus (and counting) passes per season? You must be weak in the head if you think that's going to happen.

Keep Baker and change the scheme to play to his skill set - or be prepared for years of rebuilding again!

Oh my god, that video replay is so much worse to see than the still image.

He looks at DPJ open, pumps, then looks at the middle guy, pumps, then tries to scoot left.

So you’re plan is to pass more with the QB who can’t find open receivers?

My post said I wasn't making excuses for Baker. By post said he played badly. That on that play and others he double clutches (that's bad), some times he triple clutched (worse).

My comment was about the "freeze frame" - and what may or may not be the best edge rusher two steps away from Baker, and how the RT was an issue all game which is all IN ADDITION to Baker's issues. You can either agree or disagree with that. Providing a video is better - but I am still not making excuses for Baker who played very badly.

I feel DPJ should have kept running, he stops and backs into the defender. Looks like Baker hits him in stride it's a nice gain

My guess is it was a timing thing. His defender has no play on the ball and there's a guy coming into the middle from the other direction. Baker had an easy completion if he was on time to DPJ, and then probably had another easy completion to that middle guy after he came off of DPJ.

That should have been an easy completion for a 1st down ....

Flick that ball as soon as DPJ stops to turn and the sticks get moved.

I wonder if Baker didn't trust DPJ to make the catch?

Could he not see clearly over Teller?

Is his mental clock off by a second or two cause of shoulder pain?

Is it all of the above?

It is interesting to think about how Baker thrived in 2018 under Kitchens in more of a run 'n' gun down field attack versus how he's looked in this new offense.

Is it the difference in receivers?

We had Perrmian (spelling) and Callaway in 2018, both speedsters, and Landry was 4-years younger at that time and had a little more pep in his step.

Was it the spacing of the WR's and the down field concepts/routes?

Did Baker feel really comfortable with his pass protection that season? (It wasn't particularly great from what I remember).

I'd love for Baker and Stefanski and the rest of the coaches to collaborate in the off-season to tweak the offense so Baker feels more at home in it.

Assuming the plan ends up being to keep him.

Baker had his best year and our team made the playoffs in 2020 having an 11-5 record in this same system. The best year we've had since our return. All we really need is a healthy Baker to run it again in order to find out if the injury was the cause of his issues or not. Nobody should tweak or change anything.

I actually, I agree with you PitDawg. I am not a huge Baker fan. I was against use drafting him. He did win me over some since then. I just think the majority of his struggles are 2 fold. 1) His injury in week 2. He played 1 game in 2021 not injured and looked the same as he did last year. At Chiefs. He was 21 of 28 for 321 yards with 0 TD and 1 INT. Passer rating of 97.5. He got injured the next week and has not really looked the same as last year since. 2) Stefanski's offense now has a book against it with Baker at the helm. Last year it really did not because it was year 1 in that offense. I think defenses have adjusted and now it will be time for Baker and Stenaski to evolve and counter that defensive adjustment.

Besides these 2 issues in 2021 the entire team has been injury prone in 2021. Injuries are part of the game but teams need some luck and not get devastated by injuries and this team has. It also started week 1 vs the Cheifs. LT got Jedrick Wills got hurt. At the time of that injury the Browns were in full control of that game. After that injury the Browns did not move the ball with the same efficiency and then came Chubb's only fumble on the season, Jamie Gillian dropping the ball on a punt, and finally Baker's INT to seal their fate. Baker gets hurt the next week does not look the same again. And injuries just pile up. In my mind injuries caused this disappointing season.

Heck, this team is 7-9 with 4 PT loss to Chiefs, 5 PT loss to Chargers were a phantom pass interference was called or the Browns win, 5 PT loss to Steelers, 6 PT loss to Ravens, 2 Pt loss to Raiders with 8 starters and 18 total players out with covid, and a 2 PT loss to Packers still with many players out with covid and a pass interference or holding not called. That is 6 close losses. If the PI is called vs Chargers, and no covid vs Raiders, and the PI is called againast Green Bay this team is 10-6 playing the Bengals for division title and already clinched a wild card.

This team does not need blown up.

PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT DUDE. Look I get it, people don't like Mayfield and are looking at every little thing he does and tearing it apart. The so called fans here have made a history of trying to run every QB out of town that's played for the Browns since their return. First, you can't tell any of them the player is suspect in the beginning but let the guy lose a few games or make a mistake and they're ready to hang him from the highest tree. Second, after 20 years of losing you'd think there might be a sliver of support for the QB that ended the drought and got you to the playoffs - BUT HELL NO - THIS IS CLEVELAND!

It's just like the huge disagreement on here about drafting Wills or my choice of trading for Trent Williams. I was called stupid, that Williams was washed up, that the year he was out with caner was a fake and he's fragile, and that Wills was the second coming of Thomas. Now, two years later, Wills is failing miserably - LT now is an urgent need for the team - and yet some will say Wills poor play had nothing to do with Baker's performance. Meanwhile, Williams is the top-rated offensive lineman in the NFL for the second year running. He's made the Pro Bowl every year he's played less his cancer year. Being only 33, Williams still has 4-5 years of play left while the Browns now are in the active market for a LT - AGAIN!

So when I say that the Browns are blowing it at QB, I say so because I look at more than a missed receiver or a bad INT. Both tackles suspect at best this year with Conklin out most of the year. WR1 and WR2 missing significant time on the field. RB1 and RB2 missing significant time on the field. Baker himself playing with injuries and a coaching scheme that left him out on an island. Last year Baker was a god getting the Browns to the playoff's yet the fans turn on him like a rabid dog when he loses a few games no matter the circumstances. They won't look no further than the QB and the hell with anything else that's going on - just produce. Is it any wonder way the Brown's sucked so bad for so long? The fans in Cleveland only get behind a player if he was good yesterday - if not, you're dog meat and we need to get rid of your azz.

Now for 2022, Landry is more than likely going to be a cap casualty. Njoku is gone and was a 6.9 million option year waste of money. Clowney is a suspect resign, LT issues, RT issues depending on Conklin's rehab, zip on WR's and McKinley, Jackson, McDowell, Harrison and Odenigbo just a few of the FA's the Browns have address. Add to that we have a foolish push for a new QB. Only in Cleveland.

I have my reasons to question whether we will be the same as we were in 2020 with a healthy Baker and Stefanski or not. I have no prediction how that will turn out. What I do know is that I'm not willing to just throw that away based off of a season where everything from an injury riddled QB, an injury riddled team and circumstances that would cause any team to regress on some level happened.

We all witnessed last season. Last season is what created such high expectations for this season. I think it would be stupid to rid ourselves of the coach or QB that helped lead this team to that 11-5 record because of what they have been forced to face this season. I only have so many "start overs" left in me.

I'm not from the instant gratification crowd. Some things just don't turn out well when you try to microwave them. We saw the potential last year. We saw the struggles this year with a reasonable explanation of why we saw them. Some will call this an excuse but when something is a legitimate reason, that's not an excuse. There are certainly things to be improved on that are within our control. I'm not trying to say everything is perfect. But there is every chance that next year could be building on what we saw last year.

I'm certainly an advocate to watch as this thing slow cook rather than I am of starting over with a microwave TV dinner in hopes the flavor will be great. I've see snough over the past 20 years to know how that turns out.

Medical staff: "He's ready to play with minimal risk of further injury"
Baker: "Hell yes I'll play".

QB's have been benched for playing a lot less crappy than this. We needed a coach with some stones to bench him and not let his inability to play qb absolutely destroy our season. Baker himself should have seen that he was hurting the team rather than helping. That's our leadership. Do you think the other players on the team respect these guys now?

cfrs15

Do you have your quota of 75 posts for the day yet?

NFL players love when their QB plays through injury.

The first couple games maybe, but when you're stinking up the joint and the losses are piling up as a direct result, I think the love wanes.

I believe cfrs was being sarcastic, in that players 'love' when their QB plays injured.


Here's an angle to consider in what is/was a tricky situation:

Jake Burns
@jake_burns18
Just imagine how safe this space would be if the Browns forced Mayfield to shut it down w doctors clearing him & Mayfield saying he decides if he plays.

THEN starting Keenum w Baker saying he's willing & able to play as he sits on the bench. I am sure it would have gone well.

Jake Burns
@jake_burns18
Mayfield was VERY vocal from the start he could and wanted to play. It would have been a PR disaster with forcing him to sit against his will on this and people would have been killing the organization for it as losses mounted.

Jake Burns
@jake_burns18
They gave him the respect of granting his wish to play and have always backed him publicly on everything--including OBJ.

The only time they forced him out was when doctor's made it clear he couldn't do it.

https://twitter.com/jake_burns18/status/1478444638105178115

It brings me joy that one of the arguments against Stefanski is that he had too much confidence in the QB that I love.

I wonder if Johnny Manzel would be interested in a comeback?

I think there is no question we are stuck with Baker next year.
I think he has to heal.
In hindsight, we should have shut him down and let him come back for the playoffs. He would have had 8 fewer injuries than he has now.

I think the whole coaching staff has to be brought back
I think Baker and Stefanski need to draw up some plays that fit Baker's style
I thnk we need someone else calling plays so that Stefanski can focus on the team


I think we had a bad year for a ton of reasons.

We didn't go to the playoffs because of Baker, we were a very good team and Baker was not called to win games. I recall that we had to win against the Jets to clinch the playoff, and Baker couldn't do it. Also remember the game against Pitt, facing the 2nd team and we almost lost it on the 4th quarter. We got to the playoffs because of our running game, not because of Baker.

On the other hand, IMHO, we didn't got to the playoffs this season and 2 years ago, mostly because of his poor play.

Any other player and we wouldn't be having this discussion. We are a good team, Baker makes us worst most of the times.

I've commented earlier on why Baker does't take what the defense gives him. He had a nice window to lead a pass to DPJ for an easy 7-8 yard gain. He seems to hesitate waitting for a bigger chunk play to develop which gets him in trouble.
Maybe MrKelso is right suggesting Baker just can't see over the lineman in the middle.