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Baker faced some real weak defenses in the Miracle of Richfield 2020 season
And he took.advantage of those defenses.
In order for Mayfield to.excell at a high level
His surrounding cast has play at a high level.
He cant carry a offense on.his back

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Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by Milk Man
Confidence shattered. Baker seeing ghosts and double clutching.

Yup. And no one has explained what happened other than he was injured. Which makes me not want a QB who loses all his confidence if he’s injured.


This makes me think about the pressers from other players.. Most if not all say" Baker is tough". They also say they" support him, but we support all of our QB's in the room". I haven't heard any player say anything more.


Where's the we can win with him and have faith next year we will when when he's healthy ?


Not bashing, just find it odd there aren't more supportive words other than he's tough.

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To me it is about Bakers floor. It can go pretty low.

I doubt there is a QB in the league that doesn't have a damn low floor,,, if injured, as Baker was this past season..

This isn't the season to judge him.


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Originally Posted by Milk Man
What’s weird about seeing ghosts this year is that the pass protection was really good overall.


Uh...no.

Blake Hance started (8) games...several at LT.

Hudson started (4) games...he couldn't even fart on Watt. Who wouldn't see ghosts with that guy on your right...or left.

Those guys manned the LT & RT spots together in a game.

Baker may be seeing ghosts and he certainly had a sub-par year with many bad plays...but pretending that the pass protection was "really good overall" is quite the reach.

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Originally Posted by Damanshot
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To me it is about Bakers floor. It can go pretty low.

I doubt there is a QB in the league that doesn't have a damn low floor,,, if injured, as Baker was this past season..

This isn't the season to judge him.

All seasons are open to judging just like every day on the job for any of us is subject to judging. I am not saying we should fire him, but we might not want to run out and give him a raise.


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Pass block win rate:


Quote
1. Los Angeles Rams, 68%
2. Kansas City Chiefs, 68%
3. Philadelphia Eagles, 67%
4. Cleveland Browns, 67%
5. Green Bay Packers, 66%
6. Chicago Bears, 66%
7. New Orleans Saints, 66%
8. Buffalo Bills, 64%
9. Washington Football Team, 63%
10. Baltimore Ravens, 62%
11. New England Patriots, 62%
12. Arizona Cardinals, 61%
13. Los Angeles Chargers, 61%
14. San Francisco 49ers, 61%
15. Seattle Seahawks, 61%
16. Denver Broncos, 61%
17. New York Jets, 61%
18. Jacksonville Jaguars, 60%
19. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 60%
20. Indianapolis Colts, 60%
21. Las Vegas Raiders, 59%
22. Detroit Lions, 58%
23. Dallas Cowboys, 58%
24. Tennessee Titans, 56%
25. Minnesota Vikings, 54%
26. Atlanta Falcons, 54%
27. Houston Texans, 54%
28. New York Giants, 54%
29. Carolina Panthers, 50%
30. Cincinnati Bengals, 49%
31. Pittsburgh Steelers, 49%
32. Miami Dolphins, 47%

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...g-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings

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Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Originally Posted by Milk Man
What’s weird about seeing ghosts this year is that the pass protection was really good overall.


Uh...no.

Blake Hance started (8) games...several at LT.

Hudson started (4) games...he couldn't even fart on Watt. Who wouldn't see ghosts with that guy on your right...or left.

Those guys manned the LT & RT spots together in a game.

Baker may be seeing ghosts and he certainly had a sub-par year with many bad plays...but pretending that the pass protection was "really good overall" is quite the reach.

How many sacks did Baker cause on his own that game? Quite a few. Also, a QB in his 4th year should absolutely know where Watt is on the field and be able to get the ball out quickly. The Browns had as many pressures as the Steelers in that game. The difference? The geriatric Roethlisberger got the ball out quickly instead of triple clutching and running into sacks.

Baker was responsible for getting sacked more than any other QB in the league this year and that's with the 6th best ranked OL in pass protection.

Nick Mullins played with Blake Hance and Michael Dunn and was sacked zero times.

Baker's confidence is completely shattered and he was seeing ghosts. He needs fixed.


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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Originally Posted by Milk Man
What’s weird about seeing ghosts this year is that the pass protection was really good overall.


Uh...no.

Blake Hance started (8) games...several at LT.

Hudson started (4) games...he couldn't even fart on Watt. Who wouldn't see ghosts with that guy on your right...or left.

Those guys manned the LT & RT spots together in a game.

Baker may be seeing ghosts and he certainly had a sub-par year with many bad plays...but pretending that the pass protection was "really good overall" is quite the reach.

How many sacks did Baker cause on his own that game? Quite a few. Also, a QB in his 4th year should absolutely know where Watt is on the field and be able to get the ball out quickly. The Browns had as many pressures as the Steelers in that game. The difference? The geriatric Roethlisberger got the ball out quickly instead of triple clutching and running into sacks.

Baker was responsible for getting sacked more than any other QB in the league this year and that's with the 6th best ranked OL in pass protection.

Nick Mullins played with Blake Hance and Michael Dunn and was sacked zero times.

Baker's confidence is completely shattered and he was seeing ghosts. He needs fixed.


Looks like 3 open options, though he may not have been able to see the receiver on the left.

Maybe Felton was in the game and going deep...anytime Felton enters, you know we are going to him...lol

Last edited by Ballpeen; 01/15/22 01:40 PM.

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Originally Posted by mgh888
Are you saying Baker played acceptable last year for those 9 games... And the two games this year were outliers and much better. But 2 games is not a sample size worth referencing?

That's exactly what I'm saying. No QB in the history of the NFL has thrown for 80% over the course of a season. So no, those two games in isolation, even compared to the previous season look nothing like anything during Baker's career. You can isolate two consecutive starts in any QB's career to paint any picture you desire. This year alone Mahomes put up 3 points up against the Titans, the following week 20 points against the lowly Giants and the next week 13 points against the Packers. Mahomes must really suck!

By contrast since went 11-5 last year and Baker did so well in his first two games, Stefnaski must be a great HC. Since our WR's were ranked 11th in 2020 and did so well those first two weeks, we must have a good WR core. You can't have it all one way with Baker and the other way with everyone else that's taking blame.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
That's exactly what I'm saying.

Great .... so when I replied to someone who was trashing Baker's performance in those 2 games - whether they were small sample size or not - whether they were seamless with the 9 games prior or not (bad choice of words by me - they followed on from, they were not seamless ... but it does not matter) ... why then would you try to take a position that disagreed with me? My response was specific to those 2 games because someone tried to discredit them and basically create a new argument that even when Baker completes 80+% of passes ... it doesn't mean he played well and in fact he was "meh" in those 2 games. . . . you just said yourself those 2 games Baker played very well and much better than the 9 games from the end of the previous season.


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The rabbit hole thread.

I don't know what else there is to say about Baker.

I just want him to come back and win big. Or, we find someone who can.

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I replied to your comments. I didn't blame the one you responded to for the claims you made.


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And even though there are different reasonings for why we feel this way, I think most, myself included, think Baker should be back next year to see how a healthy Baker will respond.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Everything points to just that.

Unless something presents itself to change that course and would clearly be an upgrade.

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I say this every time: I like the guy. I want him to play great. I know the injuries hurt him and he was tough. But what I don’t buy, in year four, is that he needs to rebuild his confidence, he has to have a chip on his shoulder, or that Case Keenum is needed as a “mentor.” He’s a veteran at this point. We can’t keep acting like he is a child.
They need to get him healthy and they need a plan B. We can do both.

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Pretty much any QB in the league can do what Baker did this year. Deliver an 8-9 record with this roster. Most, just about all QBs, would be an upgrade over Baker for next year.

Baker is a truly awful QB by any measurement you want to use...stats, the eye test, overwhelming opinions. He even knows he's not very good which is why he is always seeking extra credit for the "culture change" since he arrived. He's thin skinned and mentally weak. And he either doesn't work very hard or just can't translate work to production. The former is awful, the latter better but with no change in result. I suspect he works hard in the building and during the season. What he does during the off season is anyone's guess.

If the Browns run it back with Baker next year, it's a fingers crossed type of situation. Baker has never gotten it in 4 years, not even in this now larger than life 9 game span from 2020. Has anything ever been embellished more? Baker's defining moment of 2020 was having a golden opportunity to upset a Mahomes-less Chiefs team and on the most important drive of the season and his career, he underthrows a wide open Njoku on 3rd and long. He had played pretty well all the way up until that point. The only difference at that point in the game was this was a pressure packed situation. There was no reason he should not have completed that pass. But again, when the pressure is on, he simply doesn't deliver.

If the Browns run it back with Baker next year, I hope there is some type of light bulb moment for him. He's short, unathletic, and really does nothing special. The only thing that is going to take Baker to the next level is his brain. That's it. If he doesn't get it upstairs, he's destined to be out of the league or riding the pine in very short order.

Prove me wrong Baker.

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Originally Posted by Dave
Questions for the board ... it seems like we saw a lot less of the play action-rollouts from Mayfield this year after seeing them be really successful in 2020. My question is did defenses take it away, or did we just stop using it as much? I do recall some instances when we tried it and it seemed like the defense had a DB or LB in Mayfield's grill almost immediately. If it was taken/schemed away, was there a counter-adjustment we could have tried?

The whole league caught on to defending this offense. And it's the only thing Baker does well. And we saw the results.

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
.... And he either doesn't work very hard or just can't translate work to production. The former is awful, the latter better but with no change in result. I suspect he works hard in the building and during the season. What he does during the off season is anyone's guess..

I have no doubt he works very hard in the building, but have not seen evidence of him putting in the additional work that is required to be at the top of the profession. Especially, given his lack of God-given abilities. He has to outwork others to be at the top.

His ego gets in his way. He's on record saying he does not need a QB coach in the off-season. Doesn't need anyone to teach him a three-step drop. Pride and overconfidence are not good traits.

Comments at the bye week...

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Baker Mayfield said he went to Arizona and then down to Austin to see family during the bye week.

"Much needed rest."

https://twitter.com/camijustice/status/1468615476095946752

Sara Walsh
@Sara_Walsh
Brady on his bye week: “It’s football season and we’re football players. You think about football most of the time. You don’t go on vacation.”

https://twitter.com/Sara_Walsh/status/1458863492698546177

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Versatile Dog’s greatest win was saying Baker needed to go to a QB coach in the off-season. It’s pretty clear that he does and should. If he doesn’t it is pretty telling.

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Originally Posted by cfrs15
Versatile Dog’s greatest win was saying Baker needed to go to a QB coach in the off-season. It’s pretty clear that he does and should. If he doesn’t it is pretty telling.


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Sigh,I really want Baker to succeed. I love his arm, his attitude, I like the smartest/confidence. I don’t care to go through another QB growth.

But we better be scouting the crap out of next years QBs. We better be positioning ourselves with enough capital to get that top one or two pick.

Ridiculously stupid that we won that last game.

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jc

so now its the receivers.

aye chubb get ready next season. cause you, hunt, and d'ernest are definitely gonna be the fall guys. its always someone elses fault.


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Didn't AVP retool his footwork?

I don't believe Baker ignores coaching.

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
Pretty much any QB in the league can do what Baker did this year. Deliver an 8-9 record with this roster. Most, just about all QBs, would be an upgrade over Baker for next year.

Baker is a truly awful QB by any measurement you want to use...stats, the eye test, overwhelming opinions. He even knows he's not very good which is why he is always seeking extra credit for the "culture change" since he arrived. He's thin skinned and mentally weak. And he either doesn't work very hard or just can't translate work to production. The former is awful, the latter better but with no change in result. I suspect he works hard in the building and during the season. What he does during the off season is anyone's guess.

If the Browns run it back with Baker next year, it's a fingers crossed type of situation. Baker has never gotten it in 4 years, not even in this now larger than life 9 game span from 2020. Has anything ever been embellished more? Baker's defining moment of 2020 was having a golden opportunity to upset a Mahomes-less Chiefs team and on the most important drive of the season and his career, he underthrows a wide open Njoku on 3rd and long. He had played pretty well all the way up until that point. The only difference at that point in the game was this was a pressure packed situation. There was no reason he should not have completed that pass. But again, when the pressure is on, he simply doesn't deliver.

If the Browns run it back with Baker next year, I hope there is some type of light bulb moment for him. He's short, unathletic, and really does nothing special. The only thing that is going to take Baker to the next level is his brain. That's it. If he doesn't get it upstairs, he's destined to be out of the league or riding the pine in very short order.

Prove me wrong Baker.


I will agree that Baker is thin skinned. I will also add that the chip Baker is known to carry lends itself to him not being open to coaching.

Much was talked about his mechanics last year when Van Pelt came aboard. Things he needed to do to improve. It's fairly evident he hasn't improved, and the staff isn't talking about it leading me to believe it is a "sore" subject inside the film room.

In baseball pitching coaches go through this all the time, but if the pitcher keeps painting the edge, missing bats, or throwing out's, they don't worry about it. I don't think Bakers results are such that the staff isn't worried about it.


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Pretty amazing that a player can win a Heismen trophy. Be selected first in a NFL draft as a quarterback and be unathletic.

How can that be?

I would think that to be in the NFL you must have some talent.

I would also think to play quarterback in the NFL you have to be able to throw a football.

I guess none of that is true.

Prior to Herbert who held the rookie record for touchdowns in the history of the NFL?

That would be Baker Mayfield that unathletic guy who can't do anything.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Pretty amazing that a player can win a Heismen trophy. Be selected first in a NFL draft as a quarterback and be unathletic.

How can that be?

I would think that to be in the NFL you must have some talent.

I would also think to play quarterback in the NFL you have to be able to throw a football.

I guess none of that is true.

Prior to Herbert who held the rookie record for touchdowns in the history of the NFL?

That would be Baker Mayfield that unathletic guy who can't do anything.


I agree, I don't buy that stuff, though I wouldn't call Baker athletic when compared to others at that level.


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We have a Colin Cowherd board poster who knows more than John Dorsey and Andrew Berry.

So the best course of action is to pay attention. Then forward on to Andrew Berry so Berry knows to cut Mayfield.

Or, I guess he could contact Mayfield and tell it would be best to retire from the NFL.

That league where unathletic guys make a meager living.

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The Rish (he likes that) is actually Colin Cowherd.

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It is one thing to go the stats and make a case. In fact I have no problem with anyone saying that the Browns should move on.

It is another to basically say this guy can't chew gum and doesn't belong in the NFL at all.

That he can't do anything and has never done anything.

Then what you have done is make it clear that you have no credibility. And you have agenda.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Didn't AVP retool his footwork?

I don't believe Baker ignores coaching.

I don’t believe Baker ignores coaching. I also believe he would be much better if he got some help with some of the minutiae during the off-season. Like others have said, Tom Brady is the standard. If he has a private QB coach then Baker needs to have a private QB coach. Do we think Josh Allen went from unplayable to a top five QB working on his own in the off-season?

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Allen unplayable - Good Lord. Should have been the top pick in the draft that year.

But you can thank John "Doof" Dorsey for him not being the top pick in the draft. All the clown posters who said, but he is not accurate and could never become accurate - please. What have you got to say now?

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Originally Posted by Hammer
Allen unplayable - Good Lord. Should have been the top pick in the draft that year.

But you can thank John "Doof" Dorsey for him not being the top pick in the draft. All the clown posters who said, but he is not accurate and could never become accurate - please. What have you got to say now?

Watching Josh Allen his first season versus what we saw last night is watching two different players. I’ll never forget watching Allen in OT in the playoffs against the Texans and he was literally throwing the ball anywhere because he didn’t know what to do. I didn’t think there was anyway he could become what he has become.

It is a testament to Allen’s work on his own in the off-season with Jordan Palmer and the coaching staff’s ability to put him in great spots. I have never seen a player develop the way Allen has over the past several years.

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Agreed - but the talent and ability was always there. The upside was enormous from the get-go. Dorsey screwed the pooch.

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Originally Posted by Hammer
Agreed - but the talent and ability was always there. The upside was enormous from the get-go. Dorsey screwed the pooch.

It’s pretty clear Josh Allen is the best QB from that draft. Two years ago I would have said it was Lamar Jackson. Either way Baker is clearly third best.

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Say what you will. Josh Allen was very raw coming into the NFL. It took a lot of time and work before he came close to what he is now. That was the worry in drafting him. That's why he was actually the third QB drafted in 2018. Trying to predict how or if he would develop into a good NFL QB was quite a gamble. The Bills won that roll of the dice. But let's not try and play 20/20 hind sight and pretend it was a logical conclusion at the time.


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All QBs are "raw" coming into the NFL.

6'5" 240 lb QBs with rocket arms and incredible athleticism do not grow on trees. He came from a pro-style offense in college unlike any of the other draftable QBs. He was worth the risk.

He has led his team to the playoffs the last 3 years. Not a long time - 1 year.

It was Dorsey's job to evaluate and project what all those QBs would/could become. He failed miserably.

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There was never a doubt about Allen's physical tool set in college.

However, many have been drafted with great physical ability. Sam Darnold had good physical tools.

Josh Rosen had by far the best throwing mechanics.

Lamar had crazy running skills and maybe the worst mechanics I have seen coming out of college.

It is much harder to forecast if a player will make the transition in decision making. Reading defenses pre and post snap.

Drew Brees in many ways was like Baker. Baker actually has a stronger arm. Bree's was short. Not fast. Was known as a leader. And he was accurate.

Baker has shown he can be accurate.

Berry did not draft Baker. He could easily say I want "my guy."

His job depends upon being objective. He has reasons for wanting to stick with Baker.

So in the end whatever happens Berry is vested in Baker. So issues with Baker are issues with Berry as well.

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As Throw Long correctly pointed out, it is doubtful that Josh Allen would have entered the Cleveland maelstrom and turned out as he has. Instead he entered a highly stable situation where he could develop and grow. That is the polar opposite of the situation Baker entered. I understand you can claim the chicken-or-egg argument, but it simply does not hold water…the proof is that the Browns organization has ruined 30 QB’s, in succession. What are the odds?

It is a sort of curse to go number 1, as you are likely going to a very dysfunctional organization. Going number to the Browns is the curse of all curses. Better to go 10-30 in the first round and go to stable places. Chiefs-Mahomes, Lamar-Ravens, Mac Jones-Patriots, Rodgers-Packers.

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Josh Allen shot up the boards based on his athleticism. Most did not have him as worthy of the #1 pick in the draft - because he went to a small college, played against inferior competition - and had a completion rate of less than 57% both seasons as a starter. . . . College QB's for the most part do not become more accurate once they hit the NFL. Allen deserves mad props. Darnold was picked by the most number of pundits to be the safest pick. Rosen was next - then it was sort of a mixed bag of Baker, Allen and some Lamar.


The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Revisionist history.

Walterfootball... weaknesses

Has accuracy issues
Ball security
Decision-making needs to improve
Throws too many interceptions
Needs to improve ability to throw finesse throws
Struggled against better teams
Played at a low level of competition
Concerns about production and ability to be a clutch performer

Bleacher Report

NEGATIVES

—Allen's film shows poor decisions and errant passes where the ball gets away from him.

—His subpar completion percentage (56 percent) can be attributed to poor decisions, passes thrown too hard, drops and plain misses.

—When Allen misses, he tends to miss big and often throws high on crossing routes.

—His footwork needs to be refined so that he's stepping into throws and aligning his lower body with his shoulders—an issue a lot of "arm" throwers have.

—He leaves a clean pocket too often (not trusting his offensive line) and will extend plays instead of throwing the ball away, which can lead to lost yards.

You can throw a tantrum about it all you like, but there were more questions than answers when he came into the draft. I mean even the competition he played against alone left a lot of question marks. But you do you.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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