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I am curious ... how is Baker an incomplete while Darnold is not?

The Saints... as for the cap hit, no team that trades for Baker will need to take the whole salary will they?

Because Baker had an extended period of time where he graded out as one of the best in the league. That carried over to 2021 for 1 game, then an injury derailed it fairly quickly. To say the injuries he sustained in 2021 had very little impact on his game, imho, is an excuse for those who don't like his personality. I can't understand how these injuries wouldn't effect his throwing motion, which for an athlete at that level, changes everything he does. IF 2020 was an indicator of his abilities AND he refrains from making tackles, could Baker Mayfield develop into a consistent top ten QB? Yes... If 2020 was an anomaly, then this is a moot point.

Darnold hasn't had a streak of any kind with consistent top level play. He has shown what he is, which is consistently lower tier.

When evaluating Baker, the end of 2020 HAS to be taken into consideration.

1. I think in the eyes of Haslam , he flopped.When a QB is drafted #1
overall the expectations are at least a SB appearance.
Haslam probally reasoned Mayfield cant get the Browns to the big game.

2.Haslam probably gave Mayfield up.to 5 years to get it done.
But when Watson became available,it was too alluding to turn down.

3. I think Baker needs a year to sit behind a upper tier QB and just
Absorb all he can.

4. Mayfield I think could prosper in a more uptempo offense.

5.He needs to work on processing defenses faster when the pocket
Is collapsing. Why he was able to beat the Bengals was because
The Bengals could not establish a pass rush. Which is ironic cause
The Bengals have a really good pass rush but anyhow....

6. Baker needs to put more time in the film room.

I doubt it. I don't think anybody will trade for him if we demand they pay the whole salary. We are probably going to have to eat 8-10 mil. That or we will have to do something similar to a Osweiler deal...Baker, his salary, and a 3rd rounder and we get a 4th. I just don't see us getting any value back if we don't pay a large portion of his salary. Even there we probably won't get much.

In almost every way we just don't have any leverage in this deal. The only thing we have going for us is that by trading for the guy, a team doesn't have to coax him to their team.

Even then we don't have much. I am sure that any team thinking of making the trade is going to seek permission to talk with the guy. If baker doesn't like the team, he can just tell them he won't sign with them after this season, killing any potential deal.

Just as important as that is that Baker will look good in Carolina blue.

So at this point in time how many are saying that? Maybe the problem is the difference in what we think "hardly anyone" means. Or maybe you think what someone said a year or two ago has some meaning as of now.

Great answer with football content. You know, that thing you preach at others about.

You don't see the irony do you?

It would only be ironic and hypocrisy if Pit spent a large amount of time telling others that what to post, why to post, and challenging them when they didn't post about something he wanted them to.

To add - I thought the answer Pit gave on who/how many and when posters may have talked about hoping Baker was a FQB was a decent post.

Or it would be ironic if he likes to tell people they aren't posting football content after they disagree with him, especially when he posts for the fight.

Hmmmm........wonder who wrote this?


I will try for about the 20th time. How about we ignore one another for the good of the board? You can say whatever you like about how great Baker is and how he was so unfairly treated and I won't say a word. In return, you stop badgering me and allow me to express my opinions.

You rewrote the history of OBJ... You claimed you had a secret inside source that said Baker was a locker room cancer. You got called out for it. You then went on a several post rant calling me evil. You then completely and totally misrepresented anything I have said on the DW issues.... Then you liked a post by someone who was talking to a poster about not responding to the content of his post.... And then you did exactly that the next day to Mac. You disappeared for a few months and returned when Baker was leaving and spent a bunch of time and posts framing the football talk around bashing an outgoing QB - during your absence, with the exception of one or two issues like the DWs legal issues, the animosity in football talk all but dwindled to a murmur.

So I'll comment on what I choose to. If you stop your rewriting of hiatory and hypocrisy I won't have to respond. That's pretty easy right?

So, you aren't telling me how and what to post, right? LMAO.........you keep doing you.

Where did Vers claim he had a secret inside source? I didn't see that posted.

Pretty sure it was a different person who posted it.

To get back to football, I'll answer this as best I can.

Right now, I think Baker is a better qb than Darnold. he was ranked 30th by PFF this year and Darnold was something like 36th. I think both are bottom tier qbs. I also think that they are similar in some ways and different in others.

Similarities:
Both struggle reading coverages. Their processing skills are among the very worst in the NFL. I actually think Darnold is worse than Baker at this. Both make bad decisions. They panic and don't trust their eyes. I think both guys panic way too often.

Differences:

Baker has performed better, but his supporting cast on offense was far and away better than Darnold's. It's not even close despite what some folks on here want you to believe. People say they love analytics and then ignore them when it comes to Baker. No qb has thrown more picks than Baker since 2018. Baker had the worst 4th quarter QBR of any qb in the league last year. Since 2018, Baker is 31st in QBR in one-score games in the 4th quarter. Darnold is a much better athlete. Darnold does not have the reputation of being abrasive, fighting people on social media, alienating teammates like Baker does. Baker has been much more productive than Darnold and while circumstances matter, it has to be considered.

Bottom line:

In my opinion, neither are desirable as your starting QB. People can throw all the insults my way that they want, but pretty much every thing I have said has come true about both of those guys. The Jets moved on from Darnold. Carolina wants to move on from Darnold. The Browns are moving on from Baker. No one is offering squat for him despite him being paid a low salary in comparison to other qbs. Blaming teammates, coaching changes, calling out fans, etc is a terrible look and I think most teams don't want any part of his middle-school drama. Darnold seems like a good guy. He doesn't do the dumb stuff like Baker does, but his processing skills and inability to read coverages are dreadful.

I didn't. He has a penchant for misquoting me in hopes that I respond so we start yet another fight.

For the record, I do not have an inside source on the Browns. I used to, but that was long ago. I still talk to a couple of NFL guys once or twice a blue moon, but no inside source on the OBJ thing. That info is out there if you know how to look for it.

Pretty sure it was me. I just threw that comment out there because it was a factor in my feelings about Baker. I don't care if people believe me or not. I just don't want others attacked for my comments..

Hey Eve.........I know you love Baker and I respect that. I feel bad that I am slamming him because I know that are a bunch of you who really like Baker. I respect all of your opinions and won't challenge them. There are just a few guys on here that resort to dirty tactics and they actually encourage me to post more about Baker. Not sure if that makes any sense or not, but I appreciate folks like you, Dave, YTown, PDawg, jfan, Fate, Irish etc who really like Baker and not questioning my character as a debate tactic. For example, I didn't totally agree w/the take Irish made, and he did make some valid points. I just didn't question him on the parts I disagreed with because he made his points w/out attacking the character of those he disagreed with. This board would be a better place if we were more tolerant of opposing opinions.

No worries. I dont have any issues with your opinions. I previously posted about not liking the whole QB drama when we first traded for Watson. I said my piece and am done with it. Dont need to beat a dead horse.

If it was you not Vers - then I owe Vers an apology. I could have sworn that when Purp called Vers out for his reinventing the history of OBJ in CLE he also referred to this "source" that wasn't backed up by any supporting reporting of any sort ... but I must have been incorrect.....So while Vers didn't create a secret source - he most certainly created an entirely false reality about OBJ leaving.

No, I said I did not lie, but you do you. If you are referring to before Purp's comment, I said OBJ's camp........not "my source." Dude, will you please leave me alone? You obviously don't like me. I don't like you. Express your opinions on Baker and the Browns and allow me to express mine. Why do you feel the need to be the board police and get others to gang-up on those who don't agree w/you? No need to answer. It was a rhetorical question.

The truth for any who will listen was obvious last season, OBJ cost us the WR room. He's a punk. There is no need to rehash the obvious, unless you really got red faced over a certain QB taking off and doing good in 2020. Baker is a good QB when Baker is playing with help. Baker is not a QB who carries the team by himself, few are. But hey, we got us a slightly used sexual predator, and some prefer that.

Dooood.

You have mentioned me by name in dozens of posts. If I had the time I would copy and paste them here together with the posts with you spamming the board calling me "Evil" and other character attacks on me and others. Like always - you expect to be allowed to do that without others responding. That is not how it works.

As for OBJ - you wrote more than one post laying the ENTIRE blame and reason for OBJ not being in CLE on Baker. That is 100% false. I've been kind in most posts to call that rewriting history - but what it is/was is a lie. Plain and simple.

Vers, I have a question for you at the end of my writing because you seem to have a decent knowledge of football and QBs, at least if you don't, you talk a good game. You are right a quite lot and do miss on your share but so do NFL GMs with decades of experience.

We are about the same age (I grad HS in the late 70s) game. I have been watching the Browns since 1969 but almost exclusively on TV and my HS did not even have FB when I attended. Only been to 1/2 dozen or so games in person.

I did not want to draft Baker because of his size and the OSU flag planting. I didn't really care that he ran from cops in his early twenties because I am guessing a lot of guys would at that age. Once we drafted him though I wanted him to succeed. I do think constant coaching/OC coordinator changes could have stalled his development.

Baker has had success. I was starting to think he might be a guy we could win consistently based on the last 1/2 of the 2020 season, after OBJ went down in the Bengal game. His stats the last 8 or 9 games were excellent (especially his low # of ints) and I think I read he had one of the best QBR of all NFL QBs from the pocket during that span. I really wish last year he had been healthy so his evaluation would be more complete.

Now to my question. How could he look so good for that half of a season and not have some tangible qualities as an NFL QB? I am not trying for a gotcha with this question, but I expected more in 2021 and really don't know if his injury had anything to do with it. With my limited knowledge he appeared to me to hold the ball longer which accounted for some of his sacks. OIwondered if his confidence was down and some of his gunslinger/swagger was gone.

I am curious what you or I guess even anyone else thinks about what happened from the success the last half of 2020 and the inconsistency the past 4 years. This is a serious question with no agenda.

General comment


I never understood the Baker-to-Carolina narrative. While Baker is absolutely better than Darn old, he's coming off injury and poor performance, and overall hasn't totally proven himself as a legit fQB. He'll cost a ton, and presents too risky as an acquisition for a team that already has too much money tied up in lame duck QBs

You mean like claiming that some people want watson to be guilty? Which would mean they hope those women were sexually abused? Those kind of dirty tactics?

And yes Baker was rated just above Darnold. A healthy Darnold verses Baker playing with a torn labrum for 14 games. At least put things in context if you're going to accuse others of dirty tactics.

tab - I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thanks!

Like others, I wish you nothing but the best with your health. Keep fighting!

Fair questions. I do think the injuries affected his play at times. Mostly in regards to him really having to torque his lower body more than he had in the past. There are a couple of things you might want to consider. Almost every player deals w/injuries. Guys like Wentz, Darnold, Jimmy G, Rodgers, Big Ben, Burrow, Jackson, etc, etc etc dealt w/injuries. The other thing is that Baker was medically cleared to play by professional medical people. Some like to blame Stefanski, but the medical staff is in charge of those decisions. Injuries were a factor, but I think they are being overblown. If you are medically cleared to play, the thinking is you are in good enough shape to perform adequately.

Second point. Baker mentioned that his confidence was shaken or something like that in his podcast. So, you are right about that.

Next point. Baker has always held the ball longer than others. I like using advanced stats to help make my determinations. He got away w/a lot because we have had a good to great OL. A high number of sacks are directly attributed to him and it's been that way from the get go.

You raised another point about how Baker played so well for part of the previous year. I thought he had the best offensive talent around him in the league that year and Stefanski did a great job w/his schemes. It's not hard to succeed when you have all day to throw, you are being put in really good spots by great scheming, you have an awesome running attack that forces d-coordinators to load the box and have open receivers. I still saw very concerning flaws in Baker's game that year. In fact, Diam and I still talk on the phone and text one another. I told him BEFORE the start of this past season that "don't be surprised if the FO doesn't bring Baker back after this year." Not getting that extension was eye-opening and I figured coordinators would come up w/new strategies to combat Baker and our O. Think back......Baker had a pretty good rookie year. Teams attacked him a new way in bringing internal pressure and then flooding the offensive right side of the field w/their coverages. What did we see Baker do a lot of in year 2. Leave the pocket too early and roll to his right where he threw into the teeth of the coverage. Year 3, Stefanski comes in an utilizes a lot of play action and more importantly, boots Baker out of the pocket. What happens in year 4? Teams contain the edges and force Baker to beat them from the pocket. Baker was terrible in throwing from the pocket. His height is a detriment in that regard. He is also slow at processing information and he made more off target throws than all but two NFL starting QBs, and both of those guys were rookies.

Not asking you to agree w/my opinions and takes. You asked politely and I answered in the same manner. I appreciate these types of conversations/debates. May I ask you a question? We have both witnessed how many assets teams give up for good to great qbs. We have seen the reports on how the QB salaries are off the charts. We have seen teams bid for Watson's services even w/all the off field baggage. Why do you think teams aren't trading for Baker considering his pay is relatively low compared to many other QBs? Think about this.........Baker said he wanted to go to Indy. Indy went after an old Matt Ryan instead. Atlanta signed Marcus Mariotta for crying out loud. The Saints decided to stick w/Winston. Baker is still available. Do you think that other teams realize that he has major flaws in his game and that the reports being leaked of how he was viewed in the locker room hasn't played a significant role in that? Like yourself, my questions are legit and are not intended to be snarky. I really respect the way you have debated w/me.

Fair questions. I do think the injuries affected his play at times. Mostly in regards to him really having to torque his lower body more than he had in the past. There are a couple of things you might want to consider. Almost every player deals w/injuries. Guys like Wentz, Darnold, Jimmy G, Rodgers, Big Ben, Burrow, Jackson, etc, etc etc dealt w/injuries. The other thing is that Baker was medically cleared to play by professional medical people. Some like to blame Stefanski, but the medical staff is in charge of those decisions. Injuries were a factor, but I think they are being overblown. If you are medically cleared to play, the thinking is you are in good enough shape to perform adequately.

Second point. Baker mentioned that his confidence was shaken or something like that in his podcast. So, you are right about that.

Next point. Baker has always held the ball longer than others. I like using advanced stats to help make my determinations. He got away w/a lot because we have had a good to great OL. A high number of sacks are directly attributed to him and it's been that way from the get go.

You raised another point about how Baker played so well for part of the previous year. I thought he had the best offensive talent around him in the league that year and Stefanski did a great job w/his schemes. It's not hard to succeed when you have all day to throw, you are being put in really good spots by great scheming, you have an awesome running attack that forces d-coordinators to load the box and have open receivers. I still saw very concerning flaws in Baker's game that year. In fact, Diam and I still talk on the phone and text one another. I told him BEFORE the start of this past season that "don't be surprised if the FO doesn't bring Baker back after this year." Not getting that extension was eye-opening and I figured coordinators would come up w/new strategies to combat Baker and our O. Think back......Baker had a pretty good rookie year. Teams attacked him a new way in bringing internal pressure and then flooding the offensive right side of the field w/their coverages. What did we see Baker do a lot of in year 2. Leave the pocket too early and roll to his right where he threw into the teeth of the coverage. Year 3, Stefanski comes in an utilizes a lot of play action and more importantly, boots Baker out of the pocket. What happens in year 4? Teams contain the edges and force Baker to beat them from the pocket. Baker was terrible in throwing from the pocket. His height is a detriment in that regard. He is also slow at processing information and he made more off target throws than all but two NFL starting QBs, and both of those guys were rookies.

Not asking you to agree w/my opinions and takes. You asked politely and I answered in the same manner. I appreciate these types of conversations/debates. May I ask you a question? We have both witnessed how many assets teams give up for good to great qbs. We have seen the reports on how the QB salaries are off the charts. We have seen teams bid for Watson's services even w/all the off field baggage. Why do you think teams aren't trading for Baker considering his pay is relatively low compared to many other QBs? Think about this.........Baker said he wanted to go to Indy. Indy went after an old Matt Ryan instead. Atlanta signed Marcus Mariotta for crying out loud. The Saints decided to stick w/Winston. Baker is still available. Do you think that other teams realize that he has major flaws in his game and that the reports being leaked of how he was viewed in the locker room hasn't played a significant role in that? Like yourself, my questions are legit and are not intended to be snarky. I really respect the way you have debated w/me.[/quote]


Actually, I agree with most of what you say and certainly didn't mean my question to sound even the least bit confrontational. You gave me exactly what I was looking for. IT confirmed some of my thoughts and a different perspective on others.

To answer your question, I know what teams have given for QBs in the draft so our 3 1st rounders and then some is not a crazy price. I also agree it speaks volumes that the "interested" teams are few and far between. The idea of Watson with our line and RBs excites me about the upcoming season.

The off-field accusations will hopefully sort themselves out eventually, then I can decide how I feel about that.

One possible theory I have about Baker still being here is one, maybe 2 teams are interested, but are hoping with that limited market, they can get him for a steal and the Browns also pay some of 2022 salary. I am really not a QB evaluator. One of my worst ever predictions in my life (second only to "why would anyone want a computer in their house, stated 45 years ago) was that Peyton Manning would not be a good NFL QB, I saw his happy feet and assumed it was a nervous issue. Turns out he had them his whole career.

Good discussion.

LOL on the computer thing.

The Payton Manning thing is understandable. It's incredibly hard to evaluate college qbs and how well they will do in the NFL. The greatest talent evaluators strike out all the time. Trubisky ahead of Mahomes and Watson; Tua ahead of Herbert, Rosen in front of Lamar, Baker and Darnold ahead of Allen. Evaluating QBs is much easier after you have seen them in the NFL for a couple of years.

I do want to add one thing in defense of Baker in regards to the question I asked you. While I don't think the money he is guaranteed next season is all that high, teams do have to consider that he will be up for a new contract the following season. That's not helping the case for a guy you may have questions about. One other thing......he really should just be quiet. The podcast was a terrible idea. The part about his teammates and not wanting to win is horrible and the excuses about all his coaches and then wanting to boo fans in their cubicles kinda confirms that isn't an "adult" at this point in time.

That says a lot right there.

If you think of it, tell him Cap says "hey" and hopes he's doing OK.

I will. He's doing well overall. However, his mother passed.

Very sorry to hear that.

So what are the odds we trade Baker next weekend??