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mac #1975862 10/03/22 04:38 PM
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I think fans put way too much emphasis on coaching. There is a huge disparity among coaches at lower levels like high school and even college. However, most NFL coaches are pretty good. They certainly know what they are doing in regards to Xs and Os. It's annoying listening to so many media members trash coaches and so many fans pretending they know more about coaching than the actual coaches. There are things to question, but it's so freaking overblown.

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Does anyone else think the Browns are a poor tacking team? Several times yesterday, Mariota avoided bog losses by escaping pretty certain TFL situations, Also on the play that Denzel was called for a face mask penalty, John Johnson missed a clear shot at the guy forcing Ward to take him down and he ended up grabbling the mask. If Johnson does his job, that is about 20 less yards on that play. It may not have made a difference, but man it is tough to watch. BTW, not excusing DW facemask, just pointing out it should not have happened.

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I think a LOT of nfl players are poor at tackling. They'd rather make the big hit than hit and wrap up.

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Poor tackling is something that has been ongoing for years in college and the pros. It's not just our team. It's an epidemic. I see guys posting about us not practicing tackling, but has anyone actually read the CBA? No one tackles full go in practices. Those drills are long gone. Also, guys today go for big hits rather than practicing sound fundamental techniques. One other thing are the rule changes. You can't go high or risk a targeting call. Go low and you will get called for a personal foul many times.

I do not think this issue is specific to our team. Wait.......allow me to amend that. This issues is definitely not specific to our team.

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I think fans put way too much emphasis on coaching. There is a huge disparity among coaches at lower levels like high school and even college. However, most NFL coaches are pretty good. They certainly know what they are doing in regards to Xs and Os. It's annoying listening to so many media members trash coaches and so many fans pretending they know more about coaching than the actual coaches. There are things to question, but it's so freaking overblown.


Fans pointing at coaches as the reason for failure to win is as old as the game of football itself and that's not likely to change.

IMO, there are few coaches who are capable of being good at all facets of coaching. It takes time to be good at the Xs and Os as well as developing talent by transforming raw talent into players who capable excelling at their position.




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mac #1975891 10/03/22 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mac
Some coaches are good enough to teach a scheme or system to their players and be successful in the NFL. Some coaches are capable of taking raw player talent and develop them into better players...and some coaches can do both, teach a scheme or system and improve their raw talent.

But some coaches are not capable of doing either...they rely on getting the best talent their team management can buy on the free agent market or draft and hope those players can perform the scheme well enough to make the coaches scheme look good.

Right...and some coaches are handed Tommy Togiai and a few rookies and are expected to stop the run.

Just like you have students who are mentally challenged and just don't understand the material, you also have players who are not NFL football players even if they are on a NFL team.


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I just mentioned in the other thread ... Chances of the Browns having the two worst DTs that played this season are incredibly slim ... From a shear talent perspective. Coaching has to be having an impact. . . I would have thunk. I guess it's possible we drafted that badly, and kept players on the roster with such poor talent evaluation, in which case there are still serious issues to look at within the FO.


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Originally Posted by archbolddawg
I think a LOT of nfl players are poor at tackling. They'd rather make the big hit than hit and wrap up.

I agree with you. But don't you think we'll coached teams try to address this? I don't see many Steelers players hitting instead of tackling, and when I watch a Vrabel coached team in in TN I see solid tackling, positioning and just solid D. . . . . So yes, players in general want to be a highlight in ESPN, but coaching can and should temper that imo.


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Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.

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Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.

Arch, unfortunately that doesn't make the highlight reels

I agree with you 100%

You're a pro because you're supposed to be the best at basic football skills.

A Pro player saying "man did you see me make that sweet wrap up tackle ?"

The other Pro player saying " No bro, just been seeing the helmet to helmet highlights "

Swish #1975920 10/03/22 08:02 PM
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I know this is a Fire Joe Woods thread

I have to say this, sorry !

Football was so much fun on real turf !

Grass and mud stains

grass and mud hanging off a

Face shield !


Old school real football

It has become the WWF ! and

Hell no I don't watch that !

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Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.

I agree arch. One can coach and coach, but it is up to the players to execute. I am sure every player has been coached on proper tackling technique, but those do not make the highlights.

I really doubt that Woods told the D in the second half "Do not play the run. No matter what they do, do not play the run." Or "completely ignore one receiver on each play."


How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?

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"The Falcons came into the game averaging 26.9 points per game with the third-leading rusher in the NFL and one of the top, young tight ends in the league, and a high-end wide receiver, to go with a mobile quarterback, who has been effective in running the Falcons offense.

Running back Cordarrelle Patterson came into the game as the NFL's third-leading rusher with over 300 yards. The Browns held him to just 38 yards on nine carries (4.2 avg.) although he did get a 13-yard touchdown run.

Quarterback Marcus Mariota finished with just seven completions in the game, threw an interception, and had a rating of just 41.3. He also was limited to just three yards rushing on five attempts.

Tight end Kyles Pitts had just one reception for 25 yards early in the game and ended with no other receptions, despite being targeted three other times. The Falcons' top draft choice in 2022, Drake London, was held to just two receptions for 17 yards on seven targets."

The Browns were missing four starters on defense. Two are their best pass rushers and the other a starting DT.

The defense has made errors. And those mistakes have been very costly.

However, we have been in every game. We just need to make a few more plays that will make the difference between a loss and a win.

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Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.

arch...so what you seem to be saying is once a player progresses to the Pros, they no longer are capable of being taught something SO SIMPLE as proper tackling technique..?

arch..you do realize how preposterous that opinion IS, DON'T YOU..?

Do you really believe that once a coach reaches the PRO level that their ability to successfully teach football basics disappears..?

...and do you really believe that once a "player" reaches the PRO level that the player is no longer capable of learning football basics such as tackling technique..?

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH..!!!

Last edited by mac; 10/04/22 11:19 AM.



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j/c

I'm still amazed that people think with Myles out, with Clowney out and a horrible interior DL that Woods gets blamed for the Falcons running the ball down their throats. Before the season began people were screaming about how horrible the talent was on the DL's interior. Now suddenly that's Woods fault?


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.

arch...so what you seem to be saying is once a player progresses to the Pros, they no longer are capable of being taught something SO SIMPLE as proper tackling technique..?

arch..you do realize how preposterous that opinion IS, DON'T YOU..?

Do you really believe that once a coach reaches the PRO level that their ability to successfully teach football basics disappears..?

...and do you really believe that once a "player" reaches the PRO level that the player is no longer capable of learning football basics such as tackling technique..?

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH..!!!

The fact is those guys have been taught that stuff by every coach along the way and they simply don't do it. If they won't do it by this point, they aren't.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
j/c

I'm still amazed that people think with Myles out, with Clowney out and a horrible interior DL that Woods gets blamed for the Falcons running the ball down their throats. Before the season began people were screaming about how horrible the talent was on the DL's interior. Now suddenly that's Woods fault?

We knew the DTs were bad...we've been told the DBs are excellent...yet game after game after game there is a Q4 gaffe that results in a huge play that determines the outcome of the game. There is only one reason for such continued ineptitude.

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Can you name NFL teams that do not have an occasional blown coverage? Because I've never seen one.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.

arch...so what you seem to be saying is once a player progresses to the Pros, they no longer are capable of being taught something SO SIMPLE as proper tackling technique..?

arch..you do realize how preposterous that opinion IS, DON'T YOU..?

Do you really believe that once a coach reaches the PRO level that their ability to successfully teach football basics disappears..?

...and do you really believe that once a "player" reaches the PRO level that the player is no longer capable of learning [bold]football basics such as tackling technique[/bold]..?

NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH..!!!

Hardly worth a reply from me. What you assume I 'seem' to be saying is NOT what I said. I've highlighted, for you, the main point.

If, after 2,3,4 years of Pop Warner football, and after 2-3 years of jr. high football, and 4 years of High school football, and 2-5 years of college football - in each case coaches stressing HOW to tackle.....if you don't know by the time you reach the pro's, there no sense wasting valuable coaching time trying to teach you the BASICS of how to tackle.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Can you name NFL teams that do not have an occasional blown coverage? Because I've never seen one.
Can you name a team that has had 3 in 4 games so far (all in the 4th quarter while trying to close out a game) this year and isn't looking for answers as to how to fix it? Up to and including firing a coach, who has been on the hot seat before?


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So you don't think the Browns are trying to fix it? It seems the timing of the blown coverages are the biggest issue here and not that they happen.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Can you name NFL teams that do not have an occasional blown coverage? Because I've never seen one.
Can you name a team that has had 3 in 4 games so far (all in the 4th quarter while trying to close out a game) this year and isn't looking for answers as to how to fix it? Up to and including firing a coach, who has been on the hot seat before?

I posted these stats in the Post Game thread, but I think they belong here, too.

Marcus Mariota: 7 out of 19 for 139 yds. 0 TDs and 1 interception. He had 5 rushes for 3 yards w/0 TDs.

Are people saying that our pass defense didn't improve and that adjustments were not made. Also, before the game, a lot were concerned w/Mariotta running the ball. We shut that down. We held those big play weapons (Pitts and London] down.

I know the D got gashed by the run at the end of the game and I am NOT excusing that. However, it's a stretch to say we are not trying to fix things. Hell, Baltimore's secondary has been worse than ours. They have blown two 17+ point leads in the second half this year.

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Newsome 55 pff rating
Fire the guy that drafted him in the 1st round
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Quote
.if you don't know by the time you reach the pro's, there no sense wasting valuable coaching time trying to teach you the BASICS of how to tackle.

arch...so if the Browns defensive coaching staff has a starter..a so called leader of the defense who exhibits inexcusable tackling technique, those coaches are supposed to throw their hands up and declare that #43 is not their problem...he is a product of the system and it is the fault of #43s pee wee, jr high and high school coaches who didn't teach him how to tackle.

arch, you can't teach DESIRE..!!

The player has to have the desire to tackle and if he doesn't have that quality...WHY IS HE A CLEVELAND BROWN..?

Last edited by mac; 10/04/22 04:50 PM.



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A growing problem with the Browns defense...

..."NO ONE" ACCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY for poor DEFENSIVE performance..especially if it relates to something so basic as football techniques pertaining to the defensive side, such as TACKLING..!!

Defense wins CHAMPIONSHIPS and until the Browns focus on performance of the defense...they will never win a Super Bowl..!!

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Not sure what era some are living in, but teams haven't been tackling much in practice for a decade.


Quote
New Rule at N.F.L.’s Camps: No Tackling. It’s Just Practice.


By Bill Pennington
July 31, 2013

Pro football summer training camps were once filled with two practices a day, grueling sessions that featured helmeted players clashing gladiator-style under a merciless sun.

That was before the average N.F.L. salary soared to more than $2 million, forcing coaches and owners to weigh the risk and cost of preseason injuries. At the same time, the athletic community has been responding to research outlining the cumulative, debilitating effects of recurrent head trauma, even in practice. What’s left is a training camp landscape that would have been unrecognizable 10 years ago.

As 32 N.F.L. teams opened their camps, the new practice model virtually prohibits tackling and tolerates only nominal full-scale contact between the players, often no more than five minutes a week.

At N.F.L. training camps across the nation this week, it’s as if a bunch of touch football games have broken out.


The trend against tackling and what is known in football parlance as “live contact” began about five years ago, but it has been especially pronounced this summer.

This week, after season-ending knee injuries cost the Philadelphia Eagles two of their starters, Coach Chip Kelly, in his first year with the team, banned tackling for the duration of training camp. Coaches for the Carolina Panthers have issued a similar edict and have been reprimanding any player who knocks someone to the ground. Six days into their training camp, the Giants on Thursday were expecting to wear full pads and engage in limited live contact for the first time.


“The amount of contact now is pretty minimal,” the Giants co-owner John Mara said Tuesday, standing near his team’s practice. “I would contend it’s just not necessary. So this has been a good thing.”

But if the job of defensive football players is to tackle, don’t they need to practice it? And don’t the running backs and receivers need to practice avoiding tacklers? In spring training in baseball, the batters don’t hit off a tee and the pitchers don’t throw only to catchers.

Giants Coach Tom Coughlin conceded there was a challenge to preparing 300-pound players for a violent game without letting teammates turn their ferocity on one another.



“In this day and age, it’s a very fine line and it is not easy,” Coughlin said. “You’ve got to get a team ready to play and they’ve got to be physical, but you can’t step over the line. It’s not worth it.”

Philadelphia’s Kelly called it “a dance that everybody’s got to dance,” adding that his players would have four preseason games with unrestricted tackling. Some teams also schedule scrimmages with other teams.

“They’ll get plenty of hitting in the games,” Kelly said. “But we’ve got to get our guys to the games.”

At parts of every training camp practice — sessions now conducted only once a day, as mandated by a new labor agreement — there is contact between players. Linemen knock shoulders, although not often at full speed. Wide receivers and defensive backs jostle during pass routes, and running backs sprint through narrow gaps between linemen. But almost every time a ball carrier is encountered by a defensive player, that defender will feint a tackle, then merely tap or tag the offensive player.



Infrequently, there is a shoulder lowered to deliver a glancing blow, but in the new N.F.L., except in sporadic cases, defenders in training camp do not use their arms to wrap up a ball carrier and drag or thrust him to the ground.

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“There is just too much threat of injury to bring a guy down during practice,” said Chase Blackburn, Carolina’s middle linebacker.



Much of this new model reflects the evolution of a pro football training camp that, in many ways, is not what it used to be. Gone are days when practices were full of primal confrontations and when coaches deprived players of water breaks because they believed it toughened them for the harshest conditions of the regular season.

“I remember working at training camp when the players were allowed one little cup of Gatorade per practice,” said Mara, whose father was a Giants owner and who is attending his 52nd training camp this summer. “That was my job — one cup per player — and let me tell you, it was a difficult rule to enforce. We just didn’t know better.”

The modern camp has a water brigade that trolls the grounds hydrating the players with various liquids. Multiple athletic trainers line the fields. Every step is videotaped by camera operators hoisted in cranes so that practice exercises can be analyzed in evening meetings.

Many players come into camp in top physical condition, and most of the drills are about technique, not brute force. Rest is common, and if there is yelling from the coaches, it’s usually directed at a player who has forgotten a page in the four-inch-thick playbook, not at someone not playing with fury.

A practice itinerary is distributed to everyone beforehand, with segments scheduled to the second. An air horn blast announces the beginning and end of each portion of practice, with players trotting from station to station like worker bees.

The regular-season games may still be three hours of vicious collisions, but training camp, once six weeks long, is now a three-week summer exercise in getting players prepared, as safely as possible, for the physical rigor that awaits them.

Eagles safety Nate Allen, a four-year veteran, likes it that way. He said that by the time a player reaches the N.F.L., he needs practice at tackling tactics, but not actual tackling. That can be reserved for games.



“You just have to flip that switch,” Allen said. “And we’ve all been playing long enough to know how to do that.”

Some N.F.L. coaches, like the Jets’ Rex Ryan, decide on the level of live contact by feel; it depends how each training camp develops. On Wednesday, Ryan said he had overseen camps where tackling was prohibited throughout. Other times, he said, “you want to see the cream rise to the top,” adding, “You put it out there, put the ball on the ground and say, ‘Let’s have at it.’ ”

As of Wednesday, the Jets had not tackled in practice.

For all the measured civility and protective deference now routine at N.F.L. training camps, some of the fundamental instincts of the sport still emerge.

On Tuesday at Giants camp, another prohibited activity — shoving and fighting after a play is over — occurred between the 300-pound linemen Eric Herman and Marvin Austin. The scuffle was quickly broken up, but not before teammates boisterously hooted and hollered, as if recognizing that some level of aggression was inevitably going to surface under the hot sun.

That notion was quickly smothered by Coughlin, the Giants’ coach.

“There’s no place for that,” he barked. “Somebody could get hurt.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/01/...ng-its-just-practice.html?smid=url-share

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No starting defensive lineman today 128 out of defensive lineman
Elliott 129 it us the DC fault.
Berry has not drafted 1 starting lineman in 3 years should we fire
Calhoun after all we only scored 20 points.
Last year the defense held opposition to under 20 points 10 times.

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Originally Posted by jacksondawg
No starting defensive lineman today 128 out of defensive lineman
Elliott 129 it us the DC fault.
Berry has not drafted 1 starting lineman in 3 years should we fire
Calhoun after all we only scored 20 points.
Last year the defense held opposition to under 20 points 10 times.


Calhoun must of already have gotten fired

I know of no Calhoun in the organization

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Originally Posted by jacksondawg
Newsome 55 pff rating
Fire the guy that drafted him in the 1st round
.

PFF is cool and all but it's not the football version of the gospel truth. It's generic in a game that is anything but generic.

Also it is based off of a 3rd party interitation of the offence and defense.

Which can be in error.


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I'm wondering if what we really need is someone to look at our interior DL training regimen. Kiffin was listed as a pass rush specialist with the 49ers. Could we possibly get Rod Marinelli (who has ties to the Kiffin family) to consult on our DTs? Or someone similar? As people like to bring up, Woods' specialty is in the defensive secondary. Ben Bloom is our defensive "running game coordinator", and his history appears to be with LBs and DEs. Maybe we need someone with an IDL focus/history added to the staff.


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And then....wait for it.

LANE KIFFIN WILL BE HIRED TO REPLACE KEVIN STEFANSKI! BOOM!!!


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j/c...


Breakdown of the play Kevin Stafnaski explained as a "technique issue." Seemed everyone knew Jacob Phillips was the weak link here....and he wears the green dot.


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Again In Wards after game presser

Ward mentions the communication issue

Swish #1976319 10/05/22 10:53 PM
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J/c.

General comment, don’t take it as a right or wrong:

Reading these replies going back and forth about: tackling, if the player knows how to tackle, and if it’s being taught by the coaches.

This argument is similar to:

Left handed batter at the plate, the whole infield is shifted to the right of second base, third baseman is basically playing shortstop. Outfield is shifted right.

Fan #1: why doesn’t he hit the ball to the left side of the field? There’s no one there, it’s a free base hit.

Fan #2: because he’s a pull hitter, they are pitching him to pull it to right side

Fan #1: ok, but it’s a free hit. You would think he would know these basic fundamentals or the hitting coaches would’ve taught him that through the minors and big leagues

Fan#2: the big hit/home runs, quickest way to get to the majors and get $$

Fan #1: that still doesn’t make sense, they’re giving up free baserunners and runs for the chance of a home run

(Conversation keeps going back and forth, with no one actually being wrong and ending with something like chicks digging the long ball)

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
j/c...


Breakdown of the play Kevin Stafnaski explained as a "technique issue." Seemed everyone knew Jacob Phillips was the weak link here....and he wears the green dot.


Why in the world is Jacob Phillips wearing the Green dot??


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DaveyD #1976343 10/06/22 08:14 AM
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cause Walker is hurt and our DBs just point fingers at each other.


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Bro, our secondary only allowed 7 completions and had an interception on Sunday. Folks were also worried about Mariota running wild. He rushed for 5 yards. Not having Myles, Clowney, Bryan, and Walker might have had something to do w/our struggles against the run, right?

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The Falcons ran 16 fewer plays that we did and averaged 6.1 yards per play. They didn't have to throw. I'm surprised they even let Mariotta pass 19 times, lol.


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Originally Posted by DeisleDawg
Again In Wards after game presser

Ward mentions the communication issue

It's odd that the defense seems to be casting shade while many claim there is some Zen over the team now.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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PitDAWG #1976418 10/06/22 12:48 PM
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Not sure about Zen

I do hope someone steps in and fixes the finger pointing and lack of communication

before it's not fixable

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