KS and Shanahan come from the same tree ... look at Kyle's offense from 10 years ago (bootleg, outside zone running, etc) ... teams caught up to it. Kevin hasn't re-calibrated and Shanahan has stayed ahead of it.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
We were 11-5 and 8-9 the seasons before we signed him, so get your facts straight on your "2 consecutive losing seasons" and take your Chubb slander elsewhere. If Baker hadn't played like hot garbage, we wouldn't have had a losing record either season and even considered looking for a QB.
I'm not sure what team you have been watching but 11-5 in 2020, 8-9 in 2021, and 7-10 in 2022 is 2 consecutive losing seasons with Stefanski at the helm. Not only that but 1 of those seasons the Browns tied for last place in the division and the other held last place all their own.
Let's see now, Stefanski gets a pass for 2021 because he didn't have the balls to pull his QB who was definitely playing injured for 15 weeks of the season, and it effected his play, but you say the player was hot garbage and the reason for the failed season. Never mind that in addition to his own injury, that hot garbage QB lost his RT Conklin for 10 games due to injury, Chubb for 3 games due to injury, Hunt for 9 games due to injury, #2 WR Landry for 5 games due to injury who admittedly stated he was never close to 100% that season, and his #1 WR Beckham for 11 games because his feelings got hurt. None of that mattered as to a reason why the QB was hot garbage as you say and surely not a Stefanski issue.
Fast forward to 2022 and Stefanski gets another pass on a failed season because he didn't have his 230M QB for 11 games and the defense sucked to high heaven. Never mind that Stefanski had the 2 worst DT's in the game and they were actually replacements for the 2 worst DT's in the league in 2021. Never mind that the backup QB had a career year finishing in the top 10 before he was replaced by Watson. Never mind that in 2022, Chubb missed 0 games, Hunt 0 games, Cooper 0 games, DPJ 0 games and Conklin only 3 games yet the Browns posted a poorer record than the previous season and no fault of Stefanski. Keep in mind though that BAL went 10-7 last year after being forced to use their backup QB for 6 games. The Steelers went 9-8 with a rookie QB. The 49ers went 13-4 with a rookie 3rd string QB going 7-0 that season. But hey, Stefanski had to use a backup QB so the Browns didn't win - NOT HIS FAULT.
Now we're into 2023 and the Stefanski excuses are flying again. Can't blame the defense or a backup QB so let's place the blame on the OL not playing well and injuries. The Browns lost Chubb, so we are doomed (didn't work as a valid excuse in 2021 but what the hell). Oh no, Conklin's out for the season - we are doomed (again, this injured player had no bearing on the 2021 season when he was also injured). Can't be Stefanski's fault, let's blame Callahan for the OL poor play. Never mind that we lost to BAL who had already lost their starting LT and starting RB. Never mind losing to a PIT team that had lost their starting LT, #1 WR, and starting DT. Those teams can overcome adversity, but our Browns can't, but it has nothing to do with Stefanski.
You can't make some of this stuff up, but we have fans justifying the team's poor start with excuses for the offenses poor play in a game we actually won for bad weather with all our players in place.
The Browns have a revamped WR room. A new DC with a revamped defense. We have our 230M QB in place. The Browns have spent more money (by a longshot) than any other team in the NFL this season yet after almost 25% of the season gone, the Browns don't look any better than 2021 or 2022 and we're blaming it on anyone or anything other than the HC Stefanski. You just can't make this stuff up - only in Cleveland.
All this complaining about scheme with regards to Watson and what he ran in Houston seems kind of superfluous when you consider that a big chunk of his best plays came out of structure. Watson's not a scheme QB. He's a transcend the scheme QB. Look at that great scheme Watson was in in NE now. Isn't it great? Shouldn't Stefanski do that? Come on Kevin, be like BOB.
We need to settle in, block better, and avoid turnovers. We don't need to try to reinvent the wheel.
1There's a lot of back and forth here - but really? The scheme is fine we just need to block better and not turn the ball over and all will be fine? And when you say it'll all be fine, since we have a pretty stacked roster in my opinion and the opinion of many fans - that would mean at the least pushing for a play off spot - with Chubb healthy I'd say winning the division but Chubb us hurt. . . . You really think it's that simple and assuming it is that simple how bad is Stefanski not to be able to acheive that? Your statement is a double edged sword - if it's so simple and KS fails what then?
2I think the reality is a combination of LOTS of factors: From injury, from Watson's off the field issues and time away from the game, to (previously) the FO keeping players like Schwartz who had no business being on the roster, to keeping DTR as the backup with eyes on the future but the result being a lack of ability to offset DW missing games. . . . . The two most significant issues for me, today:
3- Watson is not the same QB he was in HOU. Or his ability while he wa in HOU was over-exaggerated. I mean you wax lyrical about Watson transcending scheme ... I think I disagree with that. I think he made (and can still make) magic happen when things broke down - but another way of phrasing this based on his time in CLE - in all but 1 game for the Browns he seems incapable of being a scheme QB and has to improvise because he struggles to read the D, go through progressions and get the Ball to the receiver on time based on the play design. When it all breaks down he has absolutely shown elite elusiveness and the ability to escape, keep his eyes downfield and throw the ball. But I don' think that "transcends" scheme, I think that's a talented athlete making plays despite not playing to the scheme. Maybe the last game he played where we beat the Titans is who he really is??? He played really, really well in that game and I'd say the play was within the design of the scheme (or however you want to phrase it). But the Titans just lost to Minshew (back up QB) and the Colts so let's wait and see how significant our win vs Titans was. We can hope that DW got his mojo back and if we see more of the same, week in and week out, versus other good and bad teams in the NFL we'll be happy and win a lot. But let's see that consistently and for a sustained period before we assume that's who he is and will be.
4- As for Stefanski, you claimed he tailored his offense to his players: ergo Chubb and running and play action. On the one hand I don't disagree that play action features heavily in his scheme and I have no issue with it. On the other hand - one of the most consistent criticisms of Stefanski is how often he gets away from the run game and goes pass happy, even in a game where your stud RB was rushing for 8 yards per carry.... If the offense was based on what we do well and what the players do well, it wou;dn't take a successful running game, have a lead and suddenly get pass happy. That together with the lack of in game adjustment and some of the other specific play calls in specific games has me feeling KS is very MEH as an OC and play caller. Based on how flat we come out for many of our prime time games and must win games, I also question his ability to be a HC. Based on his W/L record and the way it has trended I also feel the same.
Just me and my 2C but there is plenty of game history with DW as a Brown and KS as HC / Play caller to support everything I said.
1. Simple and easy aren't necessarily the same thing. Block better is a simple idea. Actually blocking better could and likely will involve a lot. I'm also not saying blocking better and avoiding turnovers is all we have to do. But, if we don't start there, the rest won't matter.
2. I agree there have been lots of factors.
3. It was a little overboard and I did consider going back and clarifying that Watson was a QB that transcended scheme. Not so much here so far. He was "transcendent" against the Titans. Not a whole lot was on time and in rhythm as he had to dodge defenders and make things happen to stay out of bad down and distance situations. Hopefully he can regain that level of play consistently. Being able to make plays outside of the scheme, when plays broke down/scramble drills, is what I meant by transcend.
4. Play calling and scheme are two different things. I do question the play calling at times, but at the same time, on re-watching it's apparent that playcalls, at times, should have worked. They were called against the looks you want to call them against, but all too frequently we don't execute well enough, and one missed block turns a potential big play for us into a loss of yards. Once you've lost yardage, analytically, passing is the play. I do think we can lean into the analytics a bit too much at times. I also think people confuse not making adjustments with poor execution of adjustments.
Now if people were complaining about Stefanski's ability to get the offense to execute the plays consistently, that's a complaint it would be hard to argue against. I don't think changing scheme would improve execution, though.
Hopefully, improved execution comes with more reps. The settle in part of my what we need to do statement was aimed towards that idea. Blocking better is the area that appears to most need better execution, to me.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Meanwhile teams with progressing leaderships is working with intangibles like team spirit and to creating a healthy culture because at the top everything matters. Thankfully the Browns doesn’t have to worry about such petty things with our results, we have other worries to deal with…
Sadly the facts do not line up with your emotions. Let's begin with SB winners. How many teams have won the SB over the past decade that did not have a QB ranked in the top 10 QB's that season? You seem to be indicating that attitude means more than performance on the field. A QB won't magically put points on the board because someone "creates a healthy culture".
But yes, there are exceptions to teams that win regularly that do not have prolific QB's The Titans were one such team. At least until last year. They were playing in a division against the Jaguars, the Texans and the Colts. Who were all sucking at the time. Houston seems to be building something with Stroud, The Jags are rolling with Trevor and now the Titans look like who they really are.
Weams win based on talent. And yes coaching. but you can talk your ass of to your team and that won't magically transform them into something they're not. I'm not saying that attitude has nothing to do with anything. But it won't create some magical transformation for the long haul.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Stefanski must have installed a winning culture right before the Titans game for watson to have played that well. Then he must have uninstalled it right before DTR was forced to start the Ravens game. The difference in QB's had nothing to do with it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
With a bit more meat on the bones we aren't that far apart - but [1] whether it's simple or easy or both - I think there is more to CLE performing at the required level than blocking and not turning the ball over. I'd say scheme, preparation, motivation are all areas we sometimes seem to lose our way with for some reason or another. It's happened often enough I believe there is a common denominator. [3] I felt that in the Titans game there was a blend of hitting receivers in stride as well as making something happen under pressure. jmo. [4] play calling and scheme are different but closely intertwined. And to your last point - I feel that putting players in position to execute is part of KS's remit and he's inconsistant. It's tied to play calling based on in game situational adjustments and scheme as a whole - and preparation..... do you remember it emerged that Freddie Kitchens was calling play from the playbook as HC where they hadn't practiced that play duing the week's preparation? I don't think KS is doing that - but it's an example of poor prep and putting players in a situation to not execute.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Love this None of this is stefanski fault when he was within 1 win of breaking Blanton collier record with Mayfield now he is Tied for last with leshaun. How good is this team With Jordan davis Ojabo Anderson de Alabama
I like how only the Browns "Offense gets the bad weather excuse, .. they got it in Bakers 2nd or 3rd year too, for a game or two about I/4 into the year,
but the Browns D doesn't get the excuse for bad weather, b/c they don't need to, really ask for it, only ... only the Browns Offense that has been underperforming since Butch Davis was the head coach, hmm.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Stefanski and Berry got here in 2020 and promptly went to, and won, a playoff game with a roster they basically inherited from John Dorsey and a QB they didn't like and couldn't get rid of quick enough. Stefanski was named coach of the year for winning a playoff game for the Browns (even though he was in his basement when we won it)....
Since then they have had 2 sub .500 seasons and, unless something improves quickly, could be on their way to a 3rd in a row. And each year the excuses abound.
In 2021, it was Bakers fault, either because he sucks or because he was hurt, depending on who you ask. It was Joe Woods fault. We didn't have any explosive WRs. We got Beckham and the Baker/Beckham feud was all Baker's fault.
In 2022, it was because their coveted $230MM QB had to serve a long suspension, which they knew was coming. It was Joe Woods fault again. Our DBs were always hurt.
In 2023, now it's again because of injuries and lack of depth at key positions. We kept the wrong back-up QB. Chubb got hurt and we kept the wrong back-up RB. Jed Wills is terrible and the OL is struggling (with the same coach who was highly praised in previous years).
In spite of the fact that Stefanski is supposed to be an offensive (and QB) guru, our O has only ranked 14th in yards or 14th in points once since he got here (not in the same year). They have spent most of their time in the 20s, bottom half of the NFL. Situational awareness and playcalling have, at times, left everybody from novice to expert alike scratching their heads. Some of their draft picks seem to be working out, others not so much. Some of their trades and acquisitions seem to be working out, others not so much.
All I know is this, since they got here, our win total has gone from 11, to 8, to 7... and this year has been nothing but one drama after another.... from totally giving away the Steelers game, to now Watson is hurt, no he's not, he's going to play, no he's not, he was cleared to play but didn't, his "game time decision" 2 weeks ago is now so bad that he might miss even more games, so we signed and are going to start a FNG who wasn't even on the roster... to finding out that DTR is absolutely NOT ready to be the guy we thought we saw in preseason, but he's the guy we kept. now there are other key players who are hurt, and for whom we don't have a good back-up.
The longer Stefanski/Berry have had their hands on the wheel, the worse things have become. I said at the beginning of this season that this should be a make or break season for one or the other, perhaps both... and it's not going well so far.
Thats exactly my take.. Dorsey was a superior GM in terms of talent acquisition. The more Berry and stefanski have put their mark on things the worse it has gotten. I think if no playoffs this year, clean house and rebuild.. this stuck in mediocrity isn't going to work, you don't keep people for the sake of it just because you want to shed your reputation of getting rid of people too fast. They need to get rid of all the nerds in the talent evaluation part, or at minimum, reduce them to a data point and not the end all. Bring in football savvy decision makers and let them do their thing. They started it when they Hired Dorsey and then it went to hell. Dorsey's biggest mistake was hiring kitchens as HC, but to be honest he was the NFL darling that offseason for his work as OC, and I get trying to keep it going. But the biggest mistakes always come from haslam and his meddling. First it was Manziel, then it was picking Hue Jackson over Mcdermott. But this current FO/staff is more drama than any single org in football, I mean its almost comical how dysfunctional they are. It comes from a bunch of Ivy nerds thinking they are smarter than everyone else and are going to "trick" everyone. It's exhausting.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
Dorsey was a superior GM in terms of talent acquisition.
Lolz.
Lolz indeed..Lets see.. to start.. Seventeen players acquired by Dorsey played in the Browns’ wild card win against the Steelers, including seven starters. For the chiefs.. Patrick mahomes(maybe you heard of him?) Tyreek Hill ( how about him), Travis Kelce(surely you know him) chris jones, Eric fisher , Stole mitchell schwartz from us. Plenty of others via trade and PS signing, like Landry, Teller, sheldon richardson. Drafted Chubb/ward/mayfield. Compare that to what berry has done... I'll wait. Hell name one player Berry has drafted can be mentioned even in the same breath as some of these guys.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
I'll add another nugget about Dorsey, since joining Detroit they have gotten substantially better every year are currently 4-1 and in 1st place.. whens the last time we can say that. If you don't think Dorsey is a better personnel guy then you just refuse to believe whats right in front of you and tons of data to back it up. Detroit fans love him
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
I'll add another nugget about Dorsey, since joining Detroit they have gotten substantially better every year are currently 4-1 and in 1st place.. whens the last time we can say that. If you don't think Dorsey is a better personnel guy then you just refuse to believe whats right in front of you and tons of data to back it up. Detroit fans love him
But you're stating a fact. That is frowned upon here. There's also the fact that Dorsey was fired in 2019. In the following season made by a roster Dorsey had assembled, the Browns went 11-5 and made the playoffs. Ever since the 2020 season the Browns record has declined.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I'll add another nugget about Dorsey, since joining Detroit they have gotten substantially better every year are currently 4-1 and in 1st place.. whens the last time we can say that. If you don't think Dorsey is a better personnel guy then you just refuse to believe whats right in front of you and tons of data to back it up. Detroit fans love him
But you're stating a fact. That is frowned upon here. There's also the fact that Dorsey was fired in 2019. In the following season made by a roster Dorsey had assembled, the Browns went 11-5 and made the playoffs. Ever since the 2020 season the Browns record has declined.
That's a fact that soooooo many on this forum refuse to acknowledge, that 2020 team was mostly built by Dorsey and Stefanski winning was because he didn't have enough time to screw it up with COVID having such an effect on the season. Fast forward to 2021 and 2022 and the only real constant for two consecutive losing seasons is Stefanski and Berry at the controls. I realize that no one wants to talk about it, but Im find it totally laughable that after paying our top 5 elite QB over 57M so far for the games he played is getting torched by the player in QBR thus far that many here bought into the conspiracy that the Browns couldn't win with him. Just a side note: since 2008 (14 years) the Browns have had (1) a single QB to have a winning or .500 or better season during that timeframe and it wasn't Watson or Brissett.
There’re apparently more who’s seeing the lack of leadership and lack of communication.
My take that I have notoriously expressed on this platform is that without a healthy and player friendly culture (famously known by some as a winning culture) that involve setting the priorities right, keeping a high standards that encourage honesty and sound values, it sooner or later create internal problems that’s born out of lack of trust.
I'll add another nugget about Dorsey, since joining Detroit they have gotten substantially better every year are currently 4-1 and in 1st place.. whens the last time we can say that. If you don't think Dorsey is a better personnel guy then you just refuse to believe whats right in front of you and tons of data to back it up. Detroit fans love him
I noticed you're tip-toeing around a notso little nugget by the name of Freddie Kitchens. You're talking about FO drama as if we all didn't watch the whole Hue Jackson Tod Haley debacle go down just to give way to Kitchens.
This whole back-and-forth was kicked off by the statement you made that the Browns haven't developed a single receiver. The only response to your first terrible take is DPJ. No, he's not a world-beater but he is a 6th rounder that DEVELOPED into a starter-caliber player. He's also done a respectable job at returner.
How are we supposed to take you seriously when you say JOK is a jag and then talk up Dorsey by including Baker.
Now you're trying to say Dorsey was a better talent evaluator. Ok....
2017 Garrett Peppers Njoku Deshone Kizer Ogunjobi Howard Wilson Roderick Johnson Caleb Brantley Zane Gonzalez Matthew Dayes
2018 Baker Ward Corbett Chubb Chad Thomas Antonio Calloway Genard Avery Damien Ratley Simeon Thomas
2019 Greedy Williams Sione Takitaki Sheldrick Redwine Mack Wilson Siebert Drew Forbes Donnie Lewis
Considering the embarrassment of riches he inherited, this is pretty horrible. If you take away the obvious #1 pick in Garrett, that 2017 draft is hot garbage considering he made 3 first-round picks. 2018, he had yet another multiple hits at the first round and came away with Baker, Ward, and Corbett (1 starter). Nick Chubb was his 4th pick. His 2019 draft is a dumpster fire.
Coming full circle... the WRs he drafted were Ratley and Calloway. Yikes.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Considering the embarrassment of riches he inherited, this is pretty horrible. If you take away the obvious #1 pick in Garrett, that 2017 draft is hot garbage considering he made 3 first-round picks. 2018, he had yet another multiple hits at the first round and came away with Baker, Ward, and Corbett (1 starter). Nick Chubb was his 4th pick. His 2019 draft is a dumpster fire.
Coming full circle... the WRs he drafted were Ratley and Calloway. Yikes.
For clarification, Dorsey was hired in Dec. 2017. He was not here for the 2017 Browns draft. That was Sashi and Co. that drafted in 2017.
I'll add another nugget about Dorsey, since joining Detroit they have gotten substantially better every year are currently 4-1 and in 1st place.. whens the last time we can say that. If you don't think Dorsey is a better personnel guy then you just refuse to believe whats right in front of you and tons of data to back it up. Detroit fans love him
I noticed you're tip-toeing around a notso little nugget by the name of Freddie Kitchens. You're talking about FO drama as if we all didn't watch the whole Hue Jackson Tod Haley debacle go down just to give way to Kitchens.
This whole back-and-forth was kicked off by the statement you made that the Browns haven't developed a single receiver. The only response to your first terrible take is DPJ. No, he's not a world-beater but he is a 6th rounder that DEVELOPED into a starter-caliber player. He's also done a respectable job at returner.
How are we supposed to take you seriously when you say JOK is a jag and then talk up Dorsey by including Baker.
Now you're trying to say Dorsey was a better talent evaluator. Ok....
2017 Garrett Peppers Njoku Deshone Kizer Ogunjobi Howard Wilson Roderick Johnson Caleb Brantley Zane Gonzalez Matthew Dayes
2018 Baker Ward Corbett Chubb Chad Thomas Antonio Calloway Genard Avery Damien Ratley Simeon Thomas
2019 Greedy Williams Sione Takitaki Sheldrick Redwine Mack Wilson Siebert Drew Forbes Donnie Lewis
Considering the embarrassment of riches he inherited, this is pretty horrible. If you take away the obvious #1 pick in Garrett, that 2017 draft is hot garbage considering he made 3 first-round picks. 2018, he had yet another multiple hits at the first round and came away with Baker, Ward, and Corbett (1 starter). Nick Chubb was his 4th pick. His 2019 draft is a dumpster fire.
Coming full circle... the WRs he drafted were Ratley and Calloway. Yikes.
I kind of thought you didnt read well, but this post proves it.. I mentioned Freddie and just about everyone mentioned it. The reason at the time made sense .. it didnt work out.. big deal.. Berry got us stefanski... hows that turned out.. Dorsey didn't do the 2017 draft... nice try though.You take a look at all of Dorsey's personnel moves and compare them to Berry and you'll see Dorsey wins everytime.. GMAB.. you're hilarious if you think Berry is even in the same conversation of Berry.. I told you to name one player Berry drafted even in the same level as the ones I mentioned Dorsey got... guess you can't do that because you know you've lost and should have just shut your mouth and moved on. You can't win this argument.. Further proof.. whats our record and whats Detroit currently.. and Hows baker doing now that he's been able to get away from this dumpster fire of a staff. We took a QB that was a un-arguable top 5 before his suspension, gave up all the draft capital we had for the next 3 years and turned him in to Spergon Wynn... yeah stefanski is some QB whisperer.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
just a few more notes... Did you know that Schwartz was the first player Berry drafted he actually cut.. despite the team being a dumpster fire? That should tell you what you need to know. But lets look at it a bit further since you want to try to use dorseys picks
I mean if JOK, DNP, and Emerson are the best picks of all your drafts.. you are a failure...for every JOK theres like 10 Tommy Togai.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
I'll add another nugget about Dorsey, since joining Detroit they have gotten substantially better every year are currently 4-1 and in 1st place.. whens the last time we can say that. If you don't think Dorsey is a better personnel guy then you just refuse to believe whats right in front of you and tons of data to back it up. Detroit fans love him
I noticed you're tip-toeing around a notso little nugget by the name of Freddie Kitchens. You're talking about FO drama as if we all didn't watch the whole Hue Jackson Tod Haley debacle go down just to give way to Kitchens.
This whole back-and-forth was kicked off by the statement you made that the Browns haven't developed a single receiver. The only response to your first terrible take is DPJ. No, he's not a world-beater but he is a 6th rounder that DEVELOPED into a starter-caliber player. He's also done a respectable job at returner.
How are we supposed to take you seriously when you say JOK is a jag and then talk up Dorsey by including Baker.
Now you're trying to say Dorsey was a better talent evaluator. Ok....
2017 Garrett Peppers Njoku Deshone Kizer Ogunjobi Howard Wilson Roderick Johnson Caleb Brantley Zane Gonzalez Matthew Dayes
2018 Baker Ward Corbett Chubb Chad Thomas Antonio Calloway Genard Avery Damien Ratley Simeon Thomas
2019 Greedy Williams Sione Takitaki Sheldrick Redwine Mack Wilson Siebert Drew Forbes Donnie Lewis
Considering the embarrassment of riches he inherited, this is pretty horrible. If you take away the obvious #1 pick in Garrett, that 2017 draft is hot garbage considering he made 3 first-round picks. 2018, he had yet another multiple hits at the first round and came away with Baker, Ward, and Corbett (1 starter). Nick Chubb was his 4th pick. His 2019 draft is a dumpster fire.
Coming full circle... the WRs he drafted were Ratley and Calloway. Yikes.
I kind of thought you didnt read well, but this post proves it.. I mentioned Freddie and just about everyone mentioned it. The reason at the time made sense .. it didnt work out.. big deal.. Berry got us stefanski... hows that turned out.. Dorsey didn't do the 2017 draft... nice try though.You take a look at all of Dorsey's personnel moves and compare them to Berry and you'll see Dorsey wins everytime.. GMAB.. you're hilarious if you think Berry is even in the same conversation of Berry.. I told you to name one player Berry drafted even in the same level as the ones I mentioned Dorsey got... guess you can't do that because you know you've lost and should have just shut your mouth and moved on. You can't win this argument.. Further proof.. whats our record and whats Detroit currently.. and Hows baker doing now that he's been able to get away from this dumpster fire of a staff. We took a QB that was a un-arguable top 5 before his suspension, gave up all the draft capital we had for the next 3 years and turned him in to Spergon Wynn... yeah stefanski is some QB whisperer.
If "we" are going to give Dorsey credit for Detroit, shouldn't we give Berry credit for Dorsey's picks when they overlapped here (I.e, 2018) or credit for the Eagles when he was there? Basically, bringing up Detroit for Dorsey seems a bit of a stretch.
Dorsey picked 1 and 4 (2018) in a single draft. Berry picked at 10 and 26 in all of his drafts as far as 1st rounders. When you have early picks, you can get better players. Dorsey picked Baker over Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.
Baker is doing well throwing jump balls to Mike Evans. So did Manziel. Evans is pretty much a cheat code. And Tampa Bay hasn't had the toughest schedule.
It's a long season. It's too soon to crown or bury anybody.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
I thought Genard Avery would be something decent for us, and then he wasn't lol .. but he wasn't the worst of them
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Baker is doing well throwing jump balls to Mike Evans. .
LOL - That's a very funny and a very telling comment. There's a pretty long list of WR I would rate ahead of Mike Evans as targets that go get a jump ball or are some sort of 'cheat code' for their QB. None of the QB's that throw to those QB's would get dismissed out of hand by such a comment ... and when Watson was "elite" in Houston he had the then best WR in the NFL, so are you also saying DW wasn't really any good when he throw up balls for Hopkins to go get?
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Baker is doing well throwing jump balls to Mike Evans. .
LOL - That's a very funny and a very telling comment. There's a pretty long list of WR I would rate ahead of Mike Evans as targets that go get a jump ball or are some sort of 'cheat code' for their QB. None of the QB's that throw to those QB's would get dismissed out of hand by such a comment ... and when Watson was "elite" in Houston he had the then best WR in the NFL, so are you also saying DW wasn't really any good when he throw up balls for Hopkins to go get?
It's just a drive-by comment that's not really reflected in the stats.
Air yards per attempt in Cleveland... 9.3/8.5/8.5/8.6
This year in Tampa... 7.5
I'm not ignoring the fact that Evans is a good candidate for jump balls, but that's not a very good explanation of Baker's early success this season.
I think some of Baker's success is who they have played too. Not exactly the Steelers, Bengals, Ravens, 49ers etc
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Baker is doing well throwing jump balls to Mike Evans. .
LOL - That's a very funny and a very telling comment. There's a pretty long list of WR I would rate ahead of Mike Evans as targets that go get a jump ball or are some sort of 'cheat code' for their QB. None of the QB's that throw to those QB's would get dismissed out of hand by such a comment ... and when Watson was "elite" in Houston he had the then best WR in the NFL, so are you also saying DW wasn't really any good when he throw up balls for Hopkins to go get?
Hopkins got traded before Watson's best statistical year.
There are receivers I would take over Mike Evans. But, if I'm just looking at throw it up, doesn't matter if he's blanketed, YOLO balls, I can't name anyone I'd rather have. (Except perhaps a younger Mike Evans.) No one does better at catching balls that are high and behind. Hopkins is good, but he doesn't have quite the catch radius of Evans. Same for AJ Brown and DK.
I didn't dismiss Baker out of hand. I actually picked him up for my fantasy team. It was more complimenting Evans than bashing Mayfield. Mike's pretty much the reason Johnny Football was a thing. If no one is open, a QB can chuck the ball in Evans general direction and good things tend to happen. That was pretty much the Texas A&M offense.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
I think Baker's success this year is down to a lot of things: Opposition is no doubt a part of it. But let's face it, how many hundreds of times did you and everyone else read 'the NFL has figured him out' - just rush him and he crumbles and he can't see over defenders. Well seriously if it was true then even bad teams could have and would have done that. . . He also can't read NFL defenses when they switch things up pre & post snap... again, hard to go to the Rams and have 2 days with the play book and have a good game if these things were really true.
I think other things that contribute to BM success to date in Tampa - being healthy. Having been on a rough 2 year ride he's matured (although not completely). He's in a place that plays to his arm talent strengths. He's in a place he feels wanted. He's on a better coached team. He might not be all world or elite. But he's good enough to be a top 20 - maybe top 15 QB. JMO. He did some great things here in CLE as a rookie and once Kitchens departed. He also did some dumb and bad things here. I'll always root for him after what he did his rookie year against all the odds (Hue Jackson, Not having any first team reps before going into his first game, having a toxic situation to deal with in Hue Jackson and Todd Hayley etc) and for being part team who won a play off game.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
That's great that you'll always root for him for the reasons you listed.
But you should be angry with him as well. His immaturity and lack of progress is why the team moved on. Both of those were under his control. I read a pretty telling quote from him the other day. He was asked how his relationship with OBJ currently was. He said they are now good and squashing it was part of him maturing.
The version of Baker here that people have built up in their minds I don't think matched the reality behind the scenes. Sucks too because Baker, in general, was a good fit for the city of Cleveland.
As for his success this year, I've watched almost every snap and he looks the same to me. Don't underestimate the affect low expectations and barely hanging on in tne league have as well. He had good moments in Cleveland, some really good ones. He's had a few so far.this year. I don't see much of a different QB when I watch him.
Your goalpost moving is outstanding in that you're still missing your target. Yes, Stefanski, in all his mediocrity is head and shoulders better than Freddie. You're conveniently forgetting the absurd lack of discipline and circus that was going on when we moved from Hue to Freddie. Gregg Williams went 5-3 after taking over for Hue. Freddie then went 6-10. Stefanski is 27-25, with his best year being when he essentially got the roster that Freddie handed him. Nobody should be going to bat for Stefanski right now, but you trying to say he's worse than Freddie is ridiculous.
You said name a a WR we haven't developed. It was only after it was made clear this was a ridiculous take that you moved the goalpost... but that still doesn't help your argument because I'd take DPJ over anything Dorsey drafted (Ratley or Calloway).
Since you (inexplicably) love to crap on JOK, is there a better LB that Dorsey drafted? Name him.
What has Dorsey's involvement been with Detroit? He's not the GM, he's a Sr. Personnel Exec. He didn't hire Dan Campbell (he was hired like a week later). Not that it has anything to do with your original (wrong) topic, but if we're going to use Dorsey's (limited) involvement with Detroit, then we're going to have to stack that against Berry's time with Philly.
Baker... wow. What's he done since leaving here? He got benched for Sam Darnold at one point... among other things. He's having a good year, but maybe you want to look a little closer at their game vs Philly before you start making this about him. He had less than 200 yards, an INT, and a garbage time TD. He is healthy, though so he's got that going for him. I'll always root for him because I was sad we shipped him off, but using him as evidence of a bad move by Berry is... not strong.
Actually, I take back what I said. Your goalposting moving is comically bad in that barely anything you've used as evidence stands up to any amount of scrutiny. The only reason I'm keeping this going is because your takes in this thread remind me of your posts about the Cavs when they beat GS, and I'm trying to bring that energy for the Browns.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Your goalpost moving is outstanding in that you're still missing your target. Yes, Stefanski, in all his mediocrity is head and shoulders better than Freddie. You're conveniently forgetting the absurd lack of discipline and circus that was going on when we moved from Hue to Freddie. Gregg Williams went 5-3 after taking over for Hue. Freddie then went 6-10. Stefanski is 27-25, with his best year being when he essentially got the roster that Freddie handed him. Nobody should be going to bat for Stefanski right now, but you trying to say he's worse than Freddie is ridiculous.
You said name a a WR we haven't developed. It was only after it was made clear this was a ridiculous take that you moved the goalpost... but that still doesn't help your argument because I'd take DPJ over anything Dorsey drafted (Ratley or Calloway).
Since you (inexplicably) love to crap on JOK, is there a better LB that Dorsey drafted? Name him.
What has Dorsey's involvement been with Detroit? He's not the GM, he's a Sr. Personnel Exec. He didn't hire Dan Campbell (he was hired like a week later). Not that it has anything to do with your original (wrong) topic, but if we're going to use Dorsey's (limited) involvement with Detroit, then we're going to have to stack that against Berry's time with Philly.
Baker... wow. What's he done since leaving here? He got benched for Sam Darnold at one point... among other things. He's having a good year, but maybe you want to look a little closer at their game vs Philly before you start making this about him. He had less than 200 yards, an INT, and a garbage time TD. He is healthy, though so he's got that going for him. I'll always root for him because I was sad we shipped him off, but using him as evidence of a bad move by Berry is... not strong.
Actually, I take back what I said. Your goalposting moving is comically bad in that barely anything you've used as evidence stands up to any amount of scrutiny. The only reason I'm keeping this going is because your takes in this thread remind me of your posts about the Cavs when they beat GS, and I'm trying to bring that energy for the Browns.
lol.. you can't take a loss periord.. you're wrong on so many accounts.. not going to say anything more than this... I never said Stefanski was worse than freddie.. i said stefanki isn't that great and he's not a good coach.. He took over a team and had no training camp and every camp he's run and every season the record gets worse.. and Dorsey drafted Hill and Kelce.. i'd take either over anything berry has drafted.. and you might want to look at what he does in detroit... he's alot more involved than Berry was in philly.. Berry sucks at drafting..period.. you still haven't named a single player that compares to anything I posted. Jok is ranked in the 80s.. so yeah..
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
The big difference is Stefanski was able to take the roster Dorsey handed him and take the Browns to the playoffs. He hasn't been able to replicate that with the player turnover and roster Berry has given him since. So maybe people should think about what the real problem is here.
Dorsey sucked at hiring coaches. But no matter how anyone slices it, he put together a roster Stefanski could win with.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I think some of Baker's success is who they have played too. Not exactly the Steelers, Bengals, Ravens, 49ers etc
And while that looks good on paper, if one looks at it from a practical standpoint does that really hold water? The Bengals looked like dog crap against every team they had faced until Burrows appeared like he began to wake up last week. The only game they even competed in was against the Ravens until last week. They scored only three points in two of their first four games. The Steelers with Kenny Pickett at QB? Even the Ravens were beaten by the Colts and the Pickett led Steelers. None of those three teams are exactly lighting it up or showing any consistency so far this season.
I understand that Browns fans think in terms of what these teams have been in the past and how tough this division has been in the past. But when you are focusing on this season thus far I don't think it applies. At least not at this point in time.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Baker carried him that first year… Ski is an issue.
I'm sure that's your story and you're sticking to it. Baker did have a good td to int. ratio in 2020. But he only threw for 62.8%. He threw for 3563 yards. Now that's pretty good QB play. But it's not "the QB put the team on his back" kind of numbers.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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