Yes, Cleveland media always seems eager to drive off coaches. Can't really blame them as a large segment of the fan base seem to eat it up.

WITCH HUNT!

His stubbornness and unwillingness to evolve invite to criticism. It’s a result base business and right now he’s tending to be an underachiever with lack of self awareness of why he’s not succeeding.

The businessmen shipped the only qualified backup QB on the roster off to the Cardinals with a seventh round pick for a fifth round pick. I mean if you wish to talk about the business end of things.

The offense has evolved. Just not in the way Jake wanted it to. As he admitted, when they tried, it failed miserably. Unfortunately, fans and ownership haven't shown the patience to go through the kind of transition he is asking for.

Kevin's trying to get there but is doing it over time. Unfortunately, you can't just wave a wand and be perfectly running an entirely new offense. Transitioning is even harder when players seem suddenly unable to run the offense they had been good at. Throw in turnovers and penalties, and you've got a tough job.

I agree with Burns about what was expected.

However, we have to pull back the covers on the four games that have been played.

First game conditions were a part of the game both offenses had problems throwing. The defense won the game.

The Steeler game. The defense played great. The offense turned the ball over that cost 14 points. DW played poorly.

The Titan game was both sides of the ball working. DW played his best game as a Brown.

The Ravens game. DW did not play. DTR played and played poorly.

2-2 record.

So only in the Titan game did the team play to expectations.

We really do not know what this offense will look like. That question will be answered from this next game and the games that follow.

We will see if the offense we thought we would get is the off we will see.

I really need to proof read.

"We will see if the offense we thought we would get is the one we will see."

A head coach who don’t have the necessary power or are to institutionalized to intervene in a risky business decision that could potentially end his job is also probably not enough competent and experienced either to create a functional winning culture where other players and coaches step forward and helps with keeping the team spirit high inside the dressing room and making sure everybody contributing with outstanding work ethic and belief so they can short term handle serious injuries to key players without them totally falling apart.

I said in another thread that what we see in these situations is often what can expect in the future if we keep the same leadership to making key decisions. Results don’t lie.

I don’t really care about SKI, but IMO Baker was never the issue. But here we are.

If things don't get better on offense, we are going to miss the playoffs. I don't know what that means but, something has to change.

we aren't going to make the playoffs ... we had our chance and blew two games in the division within the first 4 weeks of the season AND lost our best offensive player for the year.

There are 13 games to play. The Steelers and Bengals have major issues.

The Ravens have 13 games as well. Lots of things can and will happen.

Bare in mind how players get injured every week. Injuries are a major factor in how seasons play out.

2-2 is not the end of a season. I have no idea how we will end up.

There is no way after four games conclusions can be drawn.

They are not a playoff team, ..unless they start playing better.

If Watson plays 6 more games all year, and goes 4 and 2,
He is 2 and one currently , that's five and 3, but what about the other seven games he probably won't play in?
The Browns with @uestionable @uarterback play can often, over the years...... go 2 and five,
they are 0 and one now, in games Watson didn't play,

That would be five and 3 with Watson, 2 and 6 without him, 8 and nine overall, about eleventh place in the afc, and no playoff berth, ... a great story and, so much hope for next year b/c five and 3 with him, .. so much.

How many more games this year is Watson going to play??

I know the offense wasn't perfect the week Kevin Stefanski was in a covid @uarantine and the Browns won a playoff game,
but I thought enough of it to mention that day again here.
Chubb that day had receiving and running yards about seventy and eighty for a large total of all purpose yards.

We can conclude they laid an egg in the one game, in about 80 that first place in the AFC North was on the line at the start of October,
Aside from maybe the years two thousand seven,
00 to two thousand one,

nineteen ninety five, and
nineteen eighty nine, or before then, they've only had 4 opportunities,

the ravens are there nearly every blasted year, we can conclude that.

you can overlook it if you want, but last week was not just another game, .....
ehhhh if you care about winning. If winning is the number one priorit, NUMBER ONE priority.

If the offense has evolved under Kevin's time,
b/c I'm not sure, ... well he got rid of the fullback...

can anyone go into detail on how the offense has evolved since , well the end of twenty nineteen

I don't think it has evolved. Actually, it's been relatively stagnant.

Unless you are a part of that "culture." There is no way you can define it.

Individuals interpret how they fit into the culture.

All those head coaches the media has "driven off" have gone on to do great things! Shurmur, Jackson, Mangini, Chud, Pettine, Palmer, Davis... quit blaming the media for an incompetent organization.

There is no sports media softer than the Cleveland sports media. It's softball question after softball question 95% of the time.

The problem is that without improved results our tactical evolution hasn’t been good enough compared to our rivals. From the eye test it often just look like we don’t react to what’s in front of us and continues with concepts that seemingly doesn’t work.

Questions, sure. Articles and radio shows not so much. Some of that is just the state of modern media in general and not Cleveland specific. Bad news get eyeballs. Is it not a pattern?

What concepts that haven't worked have we continued to use? It sounds "good," I guess. I'm not convinced it's accurate. How many times have we repeated these concepts? What were their success rates?

We're still trying out a bunch of different things to figure out what works.

If the concept is passblocking, I guess it's kind of true, though concept isn't usually used in that context. Unfortunately, passblocking is something teams have to be able to do in this league. If a team isn't doing it well, just about any pass concept will fail. Same for runblocking and run concepts. Miss a block and plays fail.

Year 4 and the same questions occur each year about Stefanski. No innovation, zero adjustments, very predictable play calling, and a systemic offensive system not geared to player strengths. Two separate podcasts (above and here) stating the same thing that has been happening for 3 plus years now. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

For me this is exactly the issue. It's not a one game issue that's only surfaced this week with a back up QB - it's a pattern of behaviour and a frequently repeated set of fails that KS has exhbited in his time as HC. On top of that - we're regressing with the record not getting better based on wins and loses. On top of that his signature win as a Browns HC he was locked in his basement and someone else was calling and managing the game.

The issues I feel that KS continues to exhibit -

- Gets pass happy way too easily - even when we had a game where Chubb was running at an average over 8 yards per carry. Even in games with a lame duck injured QB who clearly couldn't throw the ball. Even with a rookie QB thrown in late with not sufficient prep time with 1 st team reps.

- Regardless of the success rate of 4th downs - which in 2 years when the Browns were top 10 in going for it on 4th downs - our success rates were well below the NFL averages. If the stats tell you that you go for it based on a down and distance on the field - it is based on your team being successful at the NFL average ... when you are 10-12-15% less likely to be successful on a 4th and short than the rest of the NFL - then you should go for it less. That didn't happen.

- Part of the problem on 4th downs and in general - KS has gotten away at simply doing what the team is really good at and tries to get cute and outsmart the other HC.... but just ends up looking foolish.

- Game management has got better, but we had 2 full season's of inept game management with poor challenges and failure to execute an urgent/hurry up offense when trailing or buring time outs at inappropriate times, or not using them when it would make sense.

- Play calling (virtually) never gets adjusted at half time. KS hasn't won games by making adjustments like you see other HC's managing to make. Whether it falls under game management or not - We've seen Chubb on the sidelines at crucial moments in the 4th Q with the game on the line. You want your best players on the field at those moments, not on the sidelines. Overall I think we've spelled Chubb nicely and am okay with his touch totals - but I'm not okay with your best player(s) on the sidelines on crucial plays late in games.

- I'll never understand leaving injured Baker on an island with a rookie 3rd string right tackle going one on one vs TJ Watt. It happened on 4 straight plays if I remember correctly - two of which ended up in sacks with TJ tackling Baker as BM took his 3rd or maybe 4th step back. Again if memory serves it might have been a Monday night game and the Manning's were slamming the play calling. If it wasn't the Monday night game - then it was a regular Sunday game and the commentators questioned the play calling .... which would mean it was a different Monday night game where the Manning's were uber critical of Stefanski's play calling.

As a Brown's fan - I'll be happy to be proven wrong about KS if he somehow leads this team to success this year. But my opinion at this point is that he's not the answer and has risen beyond his ability and barring one Covid season, he's been below NFL aveerage or worse. I'd be doing everything I can to identify the next HC right now.

Berry seems to work his butt off every year identifying the Browns weaknesses and aggressively addressing them so the team can be successful. He has given the coach everything he could need to win games. But Stefanski struggles to win games, and he doesn't stack wins. He's very inconsistent. He usually gets out coached by the better coaches in the league.

Between the Jets loss last year and the start this year the organization has to start asking themselves can someone else do better. You owe it to the players. You owe it to the fans. The results speak for themselves. When the body of work becomes vast enough, you can no longer explain everything away with game to game rationalizations. The body of work is the body of work. He's the Baker Mayfield of coaches.

Just like some players are winners and some aren't, it's the same for coaches. Look at nick siriani. Guy inherited a very talented team like Stefanski. Had a question at QB with hurts. Their inaugural season they almost win it all. But it wasn't a flash in the pan. They are still finding a way to win in season two.

Sometimes you either got it or you don't. Stefanski helped bring some stability and helped right a rudderless ship. But he's not the guy to take you to the finish line, if he is being judged by the body of work. And with an expiration date on this talent, do you roll the dice and hope he figures it out or do you make a change. It's a tough call, but one they have to be evaluating.

And yet when things went well, the same people were talking about what a great play design the TD pass to Ford against Tennessee was, and how receivers were getting open.

People have a tendency to confuse results and process.

Yes, the results feel bad and familiar. Saying their has been no innovation or any adjustments just isn't accurate, though.

There is a difference between adjustments and repeated instant radical changes. People seem to expect the latter, but things just don't work that way. Reps and familiarity matter in football.

If we want to talk about failure to adjust, I'm looking at the OL. Teams have figured out how to exploit something we do up front. Callahan needs to figure out how to adjust to that. Sure, Kevin has some responsibility for that, but Callahan was supposed to be someone he was supposed to be able to lean on a bit.

KS is not without some blame.

However, look at the NFL landscape. Highly respected head coaches are far from perfect. It is no coincidence that when head coaches have good quarterback play. They look real smart. When they don't. They also are questioned.

Every year new guys get hired as head coaches. Organizations go through exhaustive research to find the right guy. How successful are new coaches?

When there is continuity like the Steelers, Patriots, and Saints before Payton left. Everyone applauds. When the quarterback play goes downhill. They don't look so bright.

KS will coach this season. His success or failure is directly correlated to how DW plays.

For me, the big issue with KS is squarely within the "executive" portion of his job description. We seem to keep reverting back into these streaks of undisciplined, erratic play. When watching games, it feels like whenever we start establishing some sort of momentum, we ourselves are the ones that stop our own momentum (penalty, dropped pass, sack, etc). We also don't seem to be able to take a punch to the gut and respond during a game (ex. Steelers game).

I acknowledge that there are plenty of people who think KS also has schematic and playcalling issues. I disagree, but I also admit that I'm not exactly armed with the knowledge to debate the finer points of this. What I will say, though, is that wherever that falls on our list of weaknesses, it's not as urgent as what I'm describing below.

So your claim is we Stefanksi can "create a winning culture" with DTR at QB? Well alrighty then.

Do you mean like a HC who passes against a team with an excellent D stacking the box? Is that what not reacting to what's in front of you means?

The walls are closing in on Kevin.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re meaning but who’s playing or not has nothing to do with having a healthy and winning culture. That’s two separate things.

Reading lots about the O-line not being very good

Not seen any talk about Bill Callahan

Is he getting the job done ?

Hard to win when the battles in the trenches are

Collapsing

Our O-line is our Achilles heel for the rest of the season. We'll have to retool it in the offseason like we did the D-line last year.

I don't think it's a talent issue. I'm starting to wonder if it's a coaching issue. Callahan has a reputation as a good OL coach, but perhaps he's rested on his laurels and other teams have figured out a weakness in his methods. Can he adapt and find a solution? Fortunately, the bye is a decent time for problem solving.

This is the problem with always wanting to find a contrarian solution or angle - Calahan has a lifetime of being recognized as a top OL coach in the NFL, Stefanski has 4 years showing inconsistencies and some poor tendancies (like getting pass happy while having a premier RB and Good/V Good rub blocking OL) - and your posts seem to want to defend Stefanski rigorously and now speculate that the issue might be Calahan. I like challanging what might be the normal perspective and like looking for alternate thoughts and concepts but when you do that at some point you have to decide how probable the alternate angle is before you propose it as being likely/viable.

As one 'for example' - in the last 3 seasons how many times as a starting OL player gone out injured and a back up - sometimes a rookie - had to step in ? And how many times have we all been pleasantly surprised at how well that back up played? I'd say with the exception of a couple of really bad players - at least 50% of the time we've been pleasantly surprised at the level of play by the back up. I'd suggest that's an indicator of good coaching.

I read stuff like this and it drives me nuts. A large percentage of OL play is tied to QB play. We have had poor QB play in 3 of 4 games. You add on to that the playcalling has not adjusted for poor QB play and of course the OL is going to struggle. Defenses are going to continuously tee off on the line of scrimmage until you make them pay.

The OL is not an issue.

It's a long season.

Before the season started I thought we would be 3-1 with 2-2 the minimum benchmark we needed to hit. The game against the Niners will be tough. There is a possibility that we will go to 2-3. After that the schedule opens up a bit. If we beat the Niners, many will start talking Super bowl again.

I have some concerns like everybody else, but am not all that worried at this point. It will become critical if we don't win games during the easier stretch. At this point I can't say we lost games which we had no business losing. We know both the Steelers and Ravens always play hard against us. Those are always toss-up games. It will be imperative we win those games the 2nd go around.

At this point there are 13 games remaining. Of those game there are 8-9 that should be called winnable. We might not win them all, but might win some of the other 4-5. That puts us in the 10-11 win range. At the beginning of the season I think nearly everyone thought that was the range where we might fall.

No doubt we have to win those games, and address some of the concerns. I just think hitting the panic button at this juncture is a little premature.

Coaches can only do so much.

The players are taught technique. They are taught how to handle moves by defensive linemen. They are filmed. They are schooled in how they are playing. They are shown what they do right and wrong.

It is up to them to improve.

What is showing up on tape is Wills can not stay in front of his man. He is getting beat on inside moves. He is not reading what the defensive player is doing. He does not anticipate.

Jones is doing pretty good in pass blocking. However, run blocking is a work in progress. His size works against him in run blocking.

Bitonio, Pocic, and Teller are impacted by tackle play. They are still for the most part playing fine.

Unit play is dependent upon each link.

IMO Callahan is not the problem. The players have to play better.

How the OL plays and how the quarterback plays determines how KS is perceived. If the Browns get consistent play from DW.

KS will keep his job and the noise will subside.

We should have smoked the Steelers. Rosters aren't even comparable. They have one great player, maybe two more decent players, and a bunch of jags.

Very disheartening loss and really underscores, in my opinion, how little Stefanski has grown in four years. He just doesn't deliver results.

And while the middle part of the schedule eases up, there are very few gimmes. Colts, Rams, Cardinals, Seahawks. Those teams aren't pushovers. Is Stefanski out coaching McVay and Carroll?

It's also not a good sign that Stefanski was very defensive this week and couldn't stop talking about how hard and unpredictable the NFL is. I didn't like the tone or the message. Felt very defeatist.

If I had to guess how the remaining season will play out, it will be one good week, one bad week, on the way to 8 or 9 wins. And no playoffs. While it's early and only four games, I think they were a sign of things to come. A foreshadowing for the remainder of the season. At some point you have to grow and take the next step. I thought the first four demonstrated the Browns have not done that.

The defense could ball out and carry the team, which would actually be nice. If the defense balls out and Watson plays well, we could make the playoffs, but they have to start doing that now and stacking wins.

Look at quarterback efficiency.

Steeler game DW turns over the ball and the results are 14 points. Ballgame.

We have played four games. DW delivered in one game.

Consistent play at quarterback equals wins.

Wills right now ranked at the bottom of the league in qb pressures.

Draw a conclusion.

It doesn't just work in one direction. Everything works together. A large percentage of OL play IS tied to to QB play. However, a large percentage of QB play is tied to OL play also. The play calling DID adjust for the OL. Stefanski went 5 wide quick game so there'd be more options to get the ball out fast. Unfortunately, when the OL doesn't even touch people, there's not even time for that to work consistently. You can't allow instant pressure right up the middle while also allowing the pocket to collapse on the edges. A QB literally can't be accurate if he's hit every time as he throws.

You say we had bad QB play in 3 of 4 games. Well, we've had bad OL play in all 4.

If it is that obvious, what are the coaches doing to address that?

Are we chipping with the RB?

Are we putting a TE on that side too help?

Are we looking for a replacement?
(On roster replacement is a coaching decision,
Off roster replacement is a GM decision)

Clearly instead of being honest without giving away strategy and/or tactics, Stefanski should have gone WWE on some reporters to try to instill some fight in the team and show that he's a winner. Sadly, the league frowns upon that.

As far as your first point, the rosters aren't comparable on paper or in the minds of fans. Yet when their jags whoop your "great players" (their DL, our OL,) you're in for a long day.

Our "great players" need to actually play like great players. So far we look more like tissue paper tigers up front on O.

If they play well, we'll win a bunch of games. If they keep playing like they have, it's going to stay ugly.

This has happened time and time and time again with KS. It's pathological. He needs to give up the playcalling.

My caveat is that we have lost our best offensive threat and leader in Chubb ... and our QB is still a big mystery. I'd feel much better if we lost to the Ravens and Steelers but had Chubb and a consistent Watson moving forward

What is this team really good at?

The only teams or games that 'lighten up' after San Francisco that I see are,

not the five of next seven on the road,
at the Colts and at seattle they won't lay down for you, but there are 3, maybe,

the Cardinals... and then the bears and broncos look pretty bad,

Houston will be tough and will beat you
the jags will be tough but you will win, maybe,
the raven and pitt are what the are where the coach is or was 4 and nine before this year, maybe a split,

the bengals will want revenge and no matter how bad the jets are they've beaten you 3 or 4 of the last 4 b/c well, NY won't let a level playing field exist and by ny I mean the league offices

the nfl is maybe not as mathematical as it is momentumal.

That second quote said nothing about a winning culture. If Mayfield sucked as bad as people claimed he did, how do you build a "winning culture" around that? The way we all saw watson play after such a long layoff, how do you build a "winning culture" around that? Vague constructs such as "building a winning culture" sounds great when people just say it. But the circumstances that surround making that happen are much more complicated.

I will give you a broader perspective.

A healthy culture is maybe the right terminology and just to correct your assumption - if I understand you correctly- nobody is “building a winning culture” around certain individuals abilities, the key is to build a healthy culture that involve everyone in a organization. The goal is to make the team bigger then the sum of all players.

A winning culture isn’t about everybody doing high five to each other after a TD, in those moments everyone is feeling great, the time when a healthy culture helps is when the team is struggling because of a bad game plan, injuries, being unlucky or the form is not there on certain players. That’s when a ‘winning culture’ can make a difference. A healthy culture is also about creating an environment where everyone is feeling welcomed, appreciated and knows that their team mates and coaches are willing - so to say -go to war with their teammates in both good and bad times as long as they’re part of the organization.

A healthy culture creates friendships that last long after the career is over, it creates bonds between individuals that’s more important than winning a game on a Sunday.

A culture carrier/builder can be both a player and a coach, or both. It’s about relationship and trust. Players and coaches that like each other, care for each other and share similar goals and visions has a tendency to work harder with more determination. The joy to share good moments with people you like can’t be underestimated as a factor for motivation.

Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski never had a honest relationship with Baker just to highlight a situation when the culture wasn’t there. In a healthy culture Mayfield or any other player’s performances shouldn’t affect a communication between coaches and there players. Being honest and straightforward has everything to do with creating a culture where uncomfortable decisions isn’t personal. In such an environment players and coaches well being is a fundamental part of every decision that affect someone’s future. That’s important if we want the whole team to win and lose together. Stefanski didn’t give a toss about Baker being brutally sacked repeatedly against the Steelers and a leader that doesn’t care about his players well being will never being the right person to create a positive culture that could be the difference between winning and losing in a tight game.

The only time since I started to follow the Browns that I saw togetherness that made a difference was our play off game against the Steelers when Stefanski wasn’t available. Suddenly players collectively worked for each other in every moments and the team spirit was top notch all the way back to the dressing room.

What a coincidence that our biggest win under Stefanski’s tenure was when other coaches took care of the team and handled the game plan.

Regarding the Watson incidence the trust, or should I say the lack of trust, between the player and the HC must be questioned otherwise Stefanski has serious communication problems both internally and externally.

How would you or anyone else besides the people within know about their culture, communication and trust?

What can you see? You watch tv. You are not in the locker.

Talking about KS at home during the playoff win against the Steelers like he was Not a part of that team is absurd.

How the hell did they get there?

I have no issue with those who wish to criticize KS.

But to infer things about lack of culture or what goes on inside the locker room is nothing but pure speculation.

Some reporter gets second or third hand trash and writes something with no verification. Then it becomes fact?

I don't see the two bolded parts as supporting each other's arguments. You say culture isn't just about the good times. Then you say you saw winning culture in a game where almost literally everything went right from the first snap. The other team literally gift wrapped us a TD when they snapped the ball over their own QB's head. We went up 28 points in the first quarter. They gave us 5 turn overs and we never trailed.

I am NOT a fan of Stefanski's playcalling. He's predictable most of the time, and when he goes with a bunch of trick plays they are overly complicated. Doesn't seem to know a middle ground.

That being said, try as I might I can't think of another single team with injured QB, RB and 3/5th of the O-line that ended up making the playoffs. Only SB team I can think of winning with a backup QB is Philly and he wasn't a rookie and came in pretty early in the season.

So not sure how we can condemn him when he's currently slogging through yet another CLE cursed season. If Watson can get and stay healthy, then we can talk about blaming Stefanski at the end of the year.

exactly ... our season was pretty much destroyed with the Conklin/Chubb/watson combo of injuries in 3 weeks total ... that's a lot to overcome while playing 3 division teams in a month

That’s a good question but what I can see is the end result. When a team is underperforming and is inconsistent under longer periods season after season then I know it’s not only about lack of talent.

Kevin Stefanski has been in charge since January 2020. His best season with the Browns was his first, with a talented roster created long before his arrival, after that it has gone slowly downhill. Not once since he took charge is it fair to say that his team has overachieved compared to all the talent he has to his disposal. In fact the opposite is closer to the truth. That’s not the results you expect if this organization was blessed with a leadership that could create a healthy “winning” culture.

Since he become the HC we have seen multiple of public disputes inside the locker room. At least two star players has left on uncomfortable conditions with no nice words to share about each other. That’s another sign of a unhealthy culture.

You can find many ways to defend Stefanski but results don’t lie. That little important detail is something that’s hard to walk around with all sorts of explanations and yada yada. Isn’t that a fair conclusion?

And just to be clear I’m not accusing any of you of being totally wrong but when the results says otherwise then what is in his defense must have some serious flaws that some of you don’t take into consideration.

Who wouldn't? Everybody would feel better.

I don't want to make it sound like I think everything is roses. I have edged to the side of Stefanski not calling all the plays. Not because I think he isn't good at calling plays. The only real play calling I dislike is the way we use Moore. He is just another version of what we wanted out of Schwartz. He seems to be our gadget guy. Moore is better than Schwartz. I just want to see him line up in a traditional receiver position and make it work from there. If he can't get open and catch the ball, then get rid of him. Quit trying to force feed things in to trying to make him this dynamic playmaker who strikes fear in to opponents from multiple angles. Sure, do that on occasion, but only once the guy has proven he gets it done in a regular manner. If not, that is when you see the player feeling pressure to make something happen and they start trying to reverse field and end up losing 16 yards. Sure, I would love to have a Percy Harvin type on my team, but you don't produce players like that, they just happen, and they don't happen very often.

Stefanski would be better suited to having an OC calling most plays so he can focus on the entire team. Just because a coach doesn't call plays doesn't mean they don't call some plays.

I also have a problem with the O design. It's like we are trying to have a hybrid of what Stefanski sees in the prefect Offense and what Watson likes to play. Watson is the QB. We need to play the way he likes to play about 95% of the time. We aren't doing that, and we are seeing the mixed results. What we see is a coach who is uncomfortable with a Gun, spread type O and a QB who is uncomfortable under center.

We need to figure it out.

The results are tied directly to quarterback performance.

2020 a healthy Baker played well. KS won "Coach of the Year." 2021 Baker was injured the entire year.

Who played quarterback last year? Jacoby and DW played. A career backup who played his best games and a player in DW who had not played in two years. And was suspended for the first eleven games and not part of the team.

This season DW played in 3 games with a 2-1 record. The game he lost. He turned it over twice resulting in 14 points. Game over.

Quarterback play is the prime factor in success and failure.

"Since he become the HC we have seen multiple of public disputes inside the locker room. At least two star players has left on uncomfortable conditions with no nice words to share about each other. That’s another sign of a unhealthy culture."

If you are referring to Odell and Baker, or Clowney? How many teams have they played for? You wish to imply that they somehow are a proper gauge of a locker room?

When this season is over if DW plays the rest of the games. His play will be the reason for the record way more than anything KS does or doesn't do.

You, me or anyone else looking from the outside in knows nothing about what actually is going on inside the team.

At the end of the season we can look at the results. Then you can decide for yourself what you think their record reflects.

Very true.

I still think the coach and quarterback need to be compatible. If the QB doesn't fit the coaches vision, or the coach doesn't fit what the QB does well, there are going to be inconsistent results.

Bingo.

It's NOT just (4) games into what looks to be another disappointing season...it's Ski's 4th season. We have a good-to-great defense...a side of the ball that doesn't require much - if any - input from Ski. The only thing we've been 'good at' is having Nick Chubb in our backfield.

We are inconsistent, underachieving, unable-to-adjust, oftentimes unprepared and unable to pull through when we get adversity / punched in the mouth. We are a soft organization and play like that as well.

If only there were 6 months between January and August where they weren't playing football and anyone could get together, anywhere on earth, and figure ^ this scat out.

I agree Peen .. the issue now is the offensive stuff and the playcalling/executing ... something just isn't working

The healthiest teams are usually the ones winning at the end of the season. Having "talent on the team" doesn't matter a whole lot if that talent isn't playing or is playing hurt.

When you lose your best players, the results won't be as good. When that player is the one touching the ball every play, your results will likely suck. (Baker trying and failing while trying to play through injury, Watson missing last week.)

Yes, there have been disputes. No one likes losing. When you're dealing with injuries, you're more likely to lose. Stefanski can't do anything on the coaching side about Chubb's knee getting torpedo'ed. Injuries happen. Teams get worse because of them. No amount of coaching can replace certain players.

Sometimes injuries can be overcome. More often than not, it's either because the rest of the team was that good, or the replacement player was good. Unfortunately, we didn't have Tom Brady waiting in the wings. Neither did the rest of the team around DTR play very well.

Dammit, Stefanski. Why'd you let your best players get hurt? This is all your fault.

In summary, At the most basic level:

Why's the running game struggling? They're missing the best RB in the NFL.

Why did the passing game struggle? They were missing the QB.

When both those happen at the same time, I'm not sure exactly what people are expecting the coach to be able to do.

It's a case of being vanilla and unwilling or unable to adjust. The Browns are stuck in the old "Kubiak Offense" instilled by Stefanski that hasn't been upgraded since he's arrived. While Stefanski shocked the world with the original conversion in 2020, he's failed to adjust as defenses have adjusted schemes to defeat the common core "Kubiak Offense." Stefanski's offense is predictable, and his vanilla formations dictate what play is coming. Offensive live game adjustments have been nonexistent usually offset by doubling down on plays that have been having little success. If you look at the offensive schemes of McVay and Shanahan, you will see teams that have upgraded their offensive schemes to combat the defensive adjustments - the Stefanski led Browns, well we're still waiting. You need look no further than the continued regression of the team since 2020. People can make up all the excuses they want, results are what actually matter, and the Browns have been on a downward spiral since 2020 with better players each year and now in 2023 it certainly appears at this point to be headed in the same direction.

Pretty simple right?

You lose a player like Chubb, Myles, DW, next guy up is not of equal ability. You cannot pay big money for depth because the starters eat most of the money.

The two biggest factors in how a team plays are the play at quarterback and injuries.

That is a fact.

If DW plays at a consistently high level and we don't lose anymore key players. We can still compete this season.

The defense will perform. We can alter our offensive approach. We can't abandon the run game. But we can run the ball in different ways.

IMO we will have to spread the field. Put Moore in the slot. Use RPO's and motion. Play from shotgun and use screens. In many ways go WCO from shotgun but still take some deep shots.

The rest of this season should give us a fair evaluation of KS. It will require the head coach to adapt. We still have DW. The defense is a good defense. We should still compete for a playoff spot.

The emotional, reactionary and overused vague term of "building a winning culture" that one would expect to see on some rambling sports editorial page is what fans do when they let their emotions cloud their brains. Your post sounds more like a "Win one for the Gipper" speech in a movie than it does actually discussing football. As has been pointed out to you already, you have no idea what's going on inside that team. watson has played atrociously since he has been here with the exception of the last game he appeared in. Hopefully that means the team is turning the corner. But if and when they do, you won't be giving Stefanski credit for building a winning culture then. You'll be giving watson credit for bailing out Stefanski.

I've seen this circus before.

I think most believe that KS should be evaluated.

Nobody is giving him a pass. But it has to be done objectively not because your agenda is "I don't like him."

Or, some vague idea about culture that we have no way to objectively measure.

This season will play out. We will find about DW and KS.

exactly our offense is stuck in the past. We don't resemble any of the current high scoring teams. No dynamic plays, designs, etc.

I agree with you 100%. An injured Chubb and no watson yet somehow the results afterwords are Steganksi's fault. He's got some kid that's never seen the field in an NFL game playing at QB and some back up talent at RB and he's supposed to "build a winning culture" with that is beyond absurdity.

It wreaks with nothing more than pure frustration and emotion.

Do we have the players to run those plays? Miami's offense works because of extreme speed everywhere. Which "high scoring" offense do you think we have the players to run? Which do you think we have the players to run w/o Chubb and Watson?

Double bingo.

With so much losses I bet you seen it all with the Browns but the Barnum & Bailey Circus will unfortunately continue to travel around your neighborhood as long as we have an incompetent HC presenting the clowns, sorry, off course I mean him calling the plays. (I couldn’t resist)

Meanwhile teams with progressing leaderships is working with intangibles like team spirit and to creating a healthy culture because at the top everything matters. Thankfully the Browns doesn’t have to worry about such petty things with our results, we have other worries to deal with…

The thing is, I think bringing in Schwartz was in part to address that second paragraph. It looks like we could use another "Jim Schwartz" on offense, or perhaps his impact will spread. We'll see what happens.

In his first year here, it seemed as if Stefanski and Mayfield clicked. I wonder, had they just left that alone, would we be better off.. I know,, Hindsight is 20/20

It's not about high scoring especially when it pertains to the Browns. The post point was that Stefanski's offense and play calling has failed horribly in adjusting to what the defenses do now to stifle the "Kubiak Offense." Second, having the specific types of players is totally on the HC and Berry. You have 2 choices when acquiring or searching for players to run your offense. You either get a player(s) and build your offensive scheme to their skill set(s), aka the Miami speed. Or you get players to play your scheme regardless of their skill set(s) like the Browns do with Stefanski's offensive scheme.

In its simplest terms, let's take Watson as an example. Here's a guy (though scummy IMHO) that was a top 5 elite QB that has spent his entire NFL and college career 90 plus percent playing in the gun. Fast forward to 2023 and now Watson is playing in an offense based on play action (even without their star RB). The article listed below covers this is detail but I'll post a short version of it here.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...-nick-chubb-kevin-stefanski/70924750007/

"Chubb frequently lined up deep in the backfield, particularly on early downs – an alignment essentially at odds with Deshaun Watson, who’s always been far more comfortable in shotgun or pistol formations that don’t afford Chubb the running starts he utilizes to such great effect when taking handoffs from a quarterback who’s under center.

It’s an oil-and-vinegar conundrum that’s been apparent in Watson’s brief, controversial and disappointing tenure in Cleveland. And, for the sake of this argument, let’s put the three-time Pro Bowler's off-field transgressions to the side (just for now). On the field? His passer rating (76.2) with the Browns is nearly 30 points shy of his sterling 104.5 standard with the Houston Texans. With Cleveland, Watson – he led the league with 4,823 passing yards in 2020, his final season with Houston – has thrown for 186.4 yards per game, more than 80 yards shy of his average with the Texans. The accuracy hasn’t been there, either, his 57.3% completion rate with the Browns an order of magnitude removed from his 67.8% in Houston.

It's only been a year since Stefanski had to switch gears on the fly after customizing his offense to fill-in Jacoby Brissett during Watson's 2022 suspension. Now, after an offseason of trying to fully assimilate Watson into the scheme, Stefanski needs to recalibrate his playbook again to his quarterback's preferences – especially since the coach is far more expendable than the player as they arrive at this crossroads. So, let’s spread it out. Let’s use that shotgun. Let’s integrate more downfield options rather than allowing wideouts Amari Cooper and Elijah Moore to suck up nearly half the target share. Give Watson more control, and – just maybe – he distributes the ball more effectively and the turnovers diminish. And, given the presence of what’s shaping up as a dominant defense, that might be enough to propel a Chubb-less squad to relevance. Maybe more."

There's more to the article but the numbers don't lie. I've raised this concern about Stefanski before and it can't be even more true today. Stefanski does not and has not shown that he will gear his offensive scheme to the skill set of his players. We have 230M QB that is playing in a scheme that is not conducive to his proven skill set. I mean really, does Stefanski think running play action with Watson is going to improve his play from what he has already proven in the NFL? To double down, the vast majority of NFL defenses now can easily read play action and very seldom get fooled by play action. We have a 9-game picture of how Watson will perform in a Stefanski offense and the difference in production has been staggering. People on this forum keep make excuses for Stefanski. Stefanski is the problem, and he has been the problem for the last 2 seasons. The numbers do not lie!

You're being kind of ridiculous. Stefanski geared the offense to the skillets of his players. Unfortunately, his best player was Chubb, and Chubb got hurt. He tried to be multiple to make it work for Watson, too. He tried to mix what Chubb did best with what Watson did best. He was able to beat the Titans without the player he had designed a large chunk of his offense around. Unfortunately, when he lost the other player he had largely designed the offense around, there wasn't the other guy to lean on.

Teams still use play action. It still works. The Lions have made Jared Goff look good by using it.


Unfortunately, it works a lot better when you have Nick Chubb, or at least an effective running game.

Edit: Numbers may not lie, but they definitely don't tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I guess it's a matter of opinion but it's equally ridiculous to pay 230M for a QB that has a QB Rating of 104.5, top 5 elite, and tell him he has to adjust his game to include something that he has done less than 10% of the time so that we can include what another player has done for us even though we are coming off of 2 consecutive losing seasons.
That making those adjustments to conform to Stefanski's scheme will result in the sliding of his passer rating (76.2) with the Browns nearly 30 points shy of his sterling 104.5 standard with the Houston Texans. With Cleveland, Watson – he led the league with 4,823 passing yards in 2020, his final season with Houston – has thrown for 186.4 yards per game, more than 80 yards shy of his average with the Texans. The accuracy hasn’t been there either, his 57.3% completion rate with the Browns an order of magnitude removed from his 67.8% in Houston.

If you want to say that Stefanski has adjusted his offensive scheme to Watson's skill set then go ahead but the numbers, production, rating, and record contradicts that opinion. What justification can the Browns have for acquiring an elite QB and paying him 230M guaranteed only to have the HC expect the player to change his normal tendencies to play the designed scheme? The Browns could have certainly found a much cheaper QB to be a system QB than Watson. Really, what is ridiculous is to pay 230M for an elite top 5 QB and then expect him to be a system QB. Nine games into his time with the Browns and we're still waiting to see something that resembles 230M QB play. Most likely never will in a Stefanski offense.

Definitely don't want players to grow and get better. Nope, they should only do the same things they've always done.

Who cares if the team around him is different? Who cares if he was playing in shootouts? Who cares if he was playing in an underwhelming division? Not Steve! The numbers don't lie! The scheme was garbage and he balled out anyways. Not because of what BOB had him doing but because he was a playmaker.

We were 11-5 and 8-9 the seasons before we signed him, so get your facts straight on your "2 consecutive losing seasons" and take your Chubb slander elsewhere. If Baker hadn't played like hot garbage, we wouldn't have had a losing record either season and even considered looking for a QB.

Watson's time away from football and media lambasting/legal issues/mental health had nothing to do with his decline. The facts that Cooper and Moore were banged up for a lot of camp, Chubb and Conklin got hurt, and we had a bad weather game had nothing to do with his slow start this season. It's clearly all Stefanski's fault.

All this complaining about scheme with regards to Watson and what he ran in Houston seems kind of superfluous when you consider that a big chunk of his best plays came out of structure. Watson's not a scheme QB. He's a transcend the scheme QB. Look at that great scheme Watson was in in NE now. Isn't it great? Shouldn't Stefanski do that? Come on Kevin, be like BOB.

We need to settle in, block better, and avoid turnovers. We don't need to try to reinvent the wheel.

Winning is what builds a winning culture. We haven't been winning. It's not like the coach or owner, or whoever walks in to a meeting room and proclaims we will from this day forward will have a winning culture.

There's a lot of back and forth here - but really? The scheme is fine we just need to block better and not turn the ball over and all will be fine? And when you say it'll all be fine, since we have a pretty stacked roster in my opinion and the opinion of many fans - that would mean at the least pushing for a play off spot - with Chubb healthy I'd say winning the division but Chubb us hurt. . . . You really think it's that simple and assuming it is that simple how bad is Stefanski not to be able to acheive that? Your statement is a double edged sword - if it's so simple and KS fails what then?

I think the reality is a combination of LOTS of factors: From injury, from Watson's off the field issues and time away from the game, to (previously) the FO keeping players like Schwartz who had no business being on the roster, to keeping DTR as the backup with eyes on the future but the result being a lack of ability to offset DW missing games. . . . . The two most significant issues for me, today:

- Watson is not the same QB he was in HOU. Or his ability while he wa in HOU was over-exaggerated. I mean you wax lyrical about Watson transcending scheme ... I think I disagree with that. I think he made (and can still make) magic happen when things broke down - but another way of phrasing this based on his time in CLE - in all but 1 game for the Browns he seems incapable of being a scheme QB and has to improvise because he struggles to read the D, go through progressions and get the Ball to the receiver on time based on the play design. When it all breaks down he has absolutely shown elite elusiveness and the ability to escape, keep his eyes downfield and throw the ball. But I don' think that "transcends" scheme, I think that's a talented athlete making plays despite not playing to the scheme. Maybe the last game he played where we beat the Titans is who he really is??? He played really, really well in that game and I'd say the play was within the design of the scheme (or however you want to phrase it). But the Titans just lost to Minshew (back up QB) and the Colts so let's wait and see how significant our win vs Titans was. We can hope that DW got his mojo back and if we see more of the same, week in and week out, versus other good and bad teams in the NFL we'll be happy and win a lot. But let's see that consistently and for a sustained period before we assume that's who he is and will be.

- As for Stefanski, you claimed he tailored his offense to his players: ergo Chubb and running and play action. On the one hand I don't disagree that play action features heavily in his scheme and I have no issue with it. On the other hand - one of the most consistent criticisms of Stefanski is how often he gets away from the run game and goes pass happy, even in a game where your stud RB was rushing for 8 yards per carry.... If the offense was based on what we do well and what the players do well, it wou;dn't take a successful running game, have a lead and suddenly get pass happy. That together with the lack of in game adjustment and some of the other specific play calls in specific games has me feeling KS is very MEH as an OC and play caller. Based on how flat we come out for many of our prime time games and must win games, I also question his ability to be a HC. Based on his W/L record and the way it has trended I also feel the same.

Just me and my 2C but there is plenty of game history with DW as a Brown and KS as HC / Play caller to support everything I said.

KS and Shanahan come from the same tree ... look at Kyle's offense from 10 years ago (bootleg, outside zone running, etc) ... teams caught up to it. Kevin hasn't re-calibrated and Shanahan has stayed ahead of it.

I'm not sure what team you have been watching but 11-5 in 2020, 8-9 in 2021, and 7-10 in 2022 is 2 consecutive losing seasons with Stefanski at the helm. Not only that but 1 of those seasons the Browns tied for last place in the division and the other held last place all their own.

Let's see now, Stefanski gets a pass for 2021 because he didn't have the balls to pull his QB who was definitely playing injured for 15 weeks of the season, and it effected his play, but you say the player was hot garbage and the reason for the failed season. Never mind that in addition to his own injury, that hot garbage QB lost his RT Conklin for 10 games due to injury, Chubb for 3 games due to injury, Hunt for 9 games due to injury, #2 WR Landry for 5 games due to injury who admittedly stated he was never close to 100% that season, and his #1 WR Beckham for 11 games because his feelings got hurt. None of that mattered as to a reason why the QB was hot garbage as you say and surely not a Stefanski issue.

Fast forward to 2022 and Stefanski gets another pass on a failed season because he didn't have his 230M QB for 11 games and the defense sucked to high heaven. Never mind that Stefanski had the 2 worst DT's in the game and they were actually replacements for the 2 worst DT's in the league in 2021. Never mind that the backup QB had a career year finishing in the top 10 before he was replaced by Watson. Never mind that in 2022, Chubb missed 0 games, Hunt 0 games, Cooper 0 games, DPJ 0 games and Conklin only 3 games yet the Browns posted a poorer record than the previous season and no fault of Stefanski. Keep in mind though that BAL went 10-7 last year after being forced to use their backup QB for 6 games. The Steelers went 9-8 with a rookie QB. The 49ers went 13-4 with a rookie 3rd string QB going 7-0 that season. But hey, Stefanski had to use a backup QB so the Browns didn't win - NOT HIS FAULT.

Now we're into 2023 and the Stefanski excuses are flying again. Can't blame the defense or a backup QB so let's place the blame on the OL not playing well and injuries. The Browns lost Chubb, so we are doomed (didn't work as a valid excuse in 2021 but what the hell). Oh no, Conklin's out for the season - we are doomed (again, this injured player had no bearing on the 2021 season when he was also injured). Can't be Stefanski's fault, let's blame Callahan for the OL poor play. Never mind that we lost to BAL who had already lost their starting LT and starting RB. Never mind losing to a PIT team that had lost their starting LT, #1 WR, and starting DT. Those teams can overcome adversity, but our Browns can't, but it has nothing to do with Stefanski.

You can't make some of this stuff up, but we have fans justifying the team's poor start with excuses for the offenses poor play in a game we actually won for bad weather with all our players in place.

The Browns have a revamped WR room. A new DC with a revamped defense. We have our 230M QB in place. The Browns have spent more money (by a longshot) than any other team in the NFL this season yet after almost 25% of the season gone, the Browns don't look any better than 2021 or 2022 and we're blaming it on anyone or anything other than the HC Stefanski. You just can't make this stuff up - only in Cleveland.

1. Simple and easy aren't necessarily the same thing. Block better is a simple idea. Actually blocking better could and likely will involve a lot. I'm also not saying blocking better and avoiding turnovers is all we have to do. But, if we don't start there, the rest won't matter.

2. I agree there have been lots of factors.

3. It was a little overboard and I did consider going back and clarifying that Watson was a QB that transcended scheme. Not so much here so far. He was "transcendent" against the Titans. Not a whole lot was on time and in rhythm as he had to dodge defenders and make things happen to stay out of bad down and distance situations. Hopefully he can regain that level of play consistently. Being able to make plays outside of the scheme, when plays broke down/scramble drills, is what I meant by transcend.

4. Play calling and scheme are two different things. I do question the play calling at times, but at the same time, on re-watching it's apparent that playcalls, at times, should have worked. They were called against the looks you want to call them against, but all too frequently we don't execute well enough, and one missed block turns a potential big play for us into a loss of yards. Once you've lost yardage, analytically, passing is the play. I do think we can lean into the analytics a bit too much at times. I also think people confuse not making adjustments with poor execution of adjustments.

Now if people were complaining about Stefanski's ability to get the offense to execute the plays consistently, that's a complaint it would be hard to argue against. I don't think changing scheme would improve execution, though.

Hopefully, improved execution comes with more reps. The settle in part of my what we need to do statement was aimed towards that idea. Blocking better is the area that appears to most need better execution, to me.

Sadly the facts do not line up with your emotions. Let's begin with SB winners. How many teams have won the SB over the past decade that did not have a QB ranked in the top 10 QB's that season? You seem to be indicating that attitude means more than performance on the field. A QB won't magically put points on the board because someone "creates a healthy culture".

But yes, there are exceptions to teams that win regularly that do not have prolific QB's The Titans were one such team. At least until last year. They were playing in a division against the Jaguars, the Texans and the Colts. Who were all sucking at the time. Houston seems to be building something with Stroud, The Jags are rolling with Trevor and now the Titans look like who they really are.

Weams win based on talent. And yes coaching. but you can talk your ass of to your team and that won't magically transform them into something they're not. I'm not saying that attitude has nothing to do with anything. But it won't create some magical transformation for the long haul.

Stefanski must have installed a winning culture right before the Titans game for watson to have played that well. Then he must have uninstalled it right before DTR was forced to start the Ravens game. The difference in QB's had nothing to do with it.

With a bit more meat on the bones we aren't that far apart - but [1] whether it's simple or easy or both - I think there is more to CLE performing at the required level than blocking and not turning the ball over. I'd say scheme, preparation, motivation are all areas we sometimes seem to lose our way with for some reason or another. It's happened often enough I believe there is a common denominator. [3] I felt that in the Titans game there was a blend of hitting receivers in stride as well as making something happen under pressure. jmo. [4] play calling and scheme are different but closely intertwined. And to your last point - I feel that putting players in position to execute is part of KS's remit and he's inconsistant. It's tied to play calling based on in game situational adjustments and scheme as a whole - and preparation..... do you remember it emerged that Freddie Kitchens was calling play from the playbook as HC where they hadn't practiced that play duing the week's preparation? I don't think KS is doing that - but it's an example of poor prep and putting players in a situation to not execute.

Love this
None of this is stefanski fault when he was within
1 win of breaking Blanton collier record with Mayfield now he is
Tied for last with leshaun.
How good is this team
With Jordan davis
Ojabo
Anderson de Alabama

I like how only the Browns "Offense gets the bad weather excuse,
.. they got it in Bakers 2nd or 3rd year too, for a game or two about I/4 into the year,

but the Browns D doesn't get the excuse for bad weather, b/c they don't need to, really ask for it, only ...
only the Browns Offense that has been underperforming since Butch Davis was the head coach, hmm.

Stefanski and Berry got here in 2020 and promptly went to, and won, a playoff game with a roster they basically inherited from John Dorsey and a QB they didn't like and couldn't get rid of quick enough. Stefanski was named coach of the year for winning a playoff game for the Browns (even though he was in his basement when we won it)....

Since then they have had 2 sub .500 seasons and, unless something improves quickly, could be on their way to a 3rd in a row. And each year the excuses abound.

In 2021, it was Bakers fault, either because he sucks or because he was hurt, depending on who you ask. It was Joe Woods fault. We didn't have any explosive WRs. We got Beckham and the Baker/Beckham feud was all Baker's fault.

In 2022, it was because their coveted $230MM QB had to serve a long suspension, which they knew was coming. It was Joe Woods fault again. Our DBs were always hurt.

In 2023, now it's again because of injuries and lack of depth at key positions. We kept the wrong back-up QB. Chubb got hurt and we kept the wrong back-up RB. Jed Wills is terrible and the OL is struggling (with the same coach who was highly praised in previous years).

In spite of the fact that Stefanski is supposed to be an offensive (and QB) guru, our O has only ranked 14th in yards or 14th in points once since he got here (not in the same year). They have spent most of their time in the 20s, bottom half of the NFL. Situational awareness and playcalling have, at times, left everybody from novice to expert alike scratching their heads. Some of their draft picks seem to be working out, others not so much. Some of their trades and acquisitions seem to be working out, others not so much.

All I know is this, since they got here, our win total has gone from 11, to 8, to 7... and this year has been nothing but one drama after another.... from totally giving away the Steelers game, to now Watson is hurt, no he's not, he's going to play, no he's not, he was cleared to play but didn't, his "game time decision" 2 weeks ago is now so bad that he might miss even more games, so we signed and are going to start a FNG who wasn't even on the roster... to finding out that DTR is absolutely NOT ready to be the guy we thought we saw in preseason, but he's the guy we kept. now there are other key players who are hurt, and for whom we don't have a good back-up.

The longer Stefanski/Berry have had their hands on the wheel, the worse things have become. I said at the beginning of this season that this should be a make or break season for one or the other, perhaps both... and it's not going well so far.

Thats exactly my take.. Dorsey was a superior GM in terms of talent acquisition. The more Berry and stefanski have put their mark on things the worse it has gotten. I think if no playoffs this year, clean house and rebuild.. this stuck in mediocrity isn't going to work, you don't keep people for the sake of it just because you want to shed your reputation of getting rid of people too fast. They need to get rid of all the nerds in the talent evaluation part, or at minimum, reduce them to a data point and not the end all. Bring in football savvy decision makers and let them do their thing. They started it when they Hired Dorsey and then it went to hell. Dorsey's biggest mistake was hiring kitchens as HC, but to be honest he was the NFL darling that offseason for his work as OC, and I get trying to keep it going. But the biggest mistakes always come from haslam and his meddling. First it was Manziel, then it was picking Hue Jackson over Mcdermott. But this current FO/staff is more drama than any single org in football, I mean its almost comical how dysfunctional they are. It comes from a bunch of Ivy nerds thinking they are smarter than everyone else and are going to "trick" everyone. It's exhausting.

Lolz.

LOL - Dorsey - the great talent evaluator, right.

Chubb was the only thing he got right and that was a gift pick.

Lolz indeed..Lets see.. to start.. Seventeen players acquired by Dorsey played in the Browns’ wild card win against the Steelers, including seven starters. For the chiefs.. Patrick mahomes(maybe you heard of him?) Tyreek Hill ( how about him), Travis Kelce(surely you know him) chris jones, Eric fisher , Stole mitchell schwartz from us. Plenty of others via trade and PS signing, like Landry, Teller, sheldon richardson. Drafted Chubb/ward/mayfield. Compare that to what berry has done... I'll wait. Hell name one player Berry has drafted can be mentioned even in the same breath as some of these guys.

I'll add another nugget about Dorsey, since joining Detroit they have gotten substantially better every year are currently 4-1 and in 1st place.. whens the last time we can say that. If you don't think Dorsey is a better personnel guy then you just refuse to believe whats right in front of you and tons of data to back it up. Detroit fans love him

But you're stating a fact. That is frowned upon here. There's also the fact that Dorsey was fired in 2019. In the following season made by a roster Dorsey had assembled, the Browns went 11-5 and made the playoffs. Ever since the 2020 season the Browns record has declined.

That's a fact that soooooo many on this forum refuse to acknowledge, that 2020 team was mostly built by Dorsey and Stefanski winning was because he didn't have enough time to screw it up with COVID having such an effect on the season. Fast forward to 2021 and 2022 and the only real constant for two consecutive losing seasons is Stefanski and Berry at the controls. I realize that no one wants to talk about it, but Im find it totally laughable that after paying our top 5 elite QB over 57M so far for the games he played is getting torched by the player in QBR thus far that many here bought into the conspiracy that the Browns couldn't win with him. Just a side note: since 2008 (14 years) the Browns have had (1) a single QB to have a winning or .500 or better season during that timeframe and it wasn't Watson or Brissett.

There’re apparently more who’s seeing the lack of leadership and lack of communication.

My take that I have notoriously expressed on this platform is that without a healthy and player friendly culture (famously known by some as a winning culture) that involve setting the priorities right, keeping a high standards that encourage honesty and sound values, it sooner or later create internal problems that’s born out of lack of trust.

The biggest mistakes Dorsey made were hanging on to Hue too long and hiring Junior Samples to replace him.

[video:youtube][/video]

I noticed you're tip-toeing around a notso little nugget by the name of Freddie Kitchens. You're talking about FO drama as if we all didn't watch the whole Hue Jackson Tod Haley debacle go down just to give way to Kitchens.

This whole back-and-forth was kicked off by the statement you made that the Browns haven't developed a single receiver. The only response to your first terrible take is DPJ. No, he's not a world-beater but he is a 6th rounder that DEVELOPED into a starter-caliber player. He's also done a respectable job at returner.

How are we supposed to take you seriously when you say JOK is a jag and then talk up Dorsey by including Baker.

Now you're trying to say Dorsey was a better talent evaluator. Ok....

2017
Garrett
Peppers
Njoku
Deshone Kizer
Ogunjobi
Howard Wilson
Roderick Johnson
Caleb Brantley
Zane Gonzalez
Matthew Dayes

2018
Baker
Ward
Corbett
Chubb
Chad Thomas
Antonio Calloway
Genard Avery
Damien Ratley
Simeon Thomas

2019
Greedy Williams
Sione Takitaki
Sheldrick Redwine
Mack Wilson
Siebert
Drew Forbes
Donnie Lewis


Considering the embarrassment of riches he inherited, this is pretty horrible. If you take away the obvious #1 pick in Garrett, that 2017 draft is hot garbage considering he made 3 first-round picks. 2018, he had yet another multiple hits at the first round and came away with Baker, Ward, and Corbett (1 starter). Nick Chubb was his 4th pick. His 2019 draft is a dumpster fire.

Coming full circle... the WRs he drafted were Ratley and Calloway. Yikes.

...I'd forgotten about Chad Thomas. Smh.

For clarification, Dorsey was hired in Dec. 2017. He was not here for the 2017 Browns draft. That was Sashi and Co. that drafted in 2017.

I kind of thought you didnt read well, but this post proves it.. I mentioned Freddie and just about everyone mentioned it. The reason at the time made sense .. it didnt work out.. big deal.. Berry got us stefanski... hows that turned out.. Dorsey didn't do the 2017 draft... nice try though.You take a look at all of Dorsey's personnel moves and compare them to Berry and you'll see Dorsey wins everytime.. GMAB.. you're hilarious if you think Berry is even in the same conversation of Berry.. I told you to name one player Berry drafted even in the same level as the ones I mentioned Dorsey got... guess you can't do that because you know you've lost and should have just shut your mouth and moved on. You can't win this argument.. Further proof.. whats our record and whats Detroit currently.. and Hows baker doing now that he's been able to get away from this dumpster fire of a staff. We took a QB that was a un-arguable top 5 before his suspension, gave up all the draft capital we had for the next 3 years and turned him in to Spergon Wynn... yeah stefanski is some QB whisperer.

just a few more notes... Did you know that Schwartz was the first player Berry drafted he actually cut.. despite the team being a dumpster fire? That should tell you what you need to know. But lets look at it a bit further since you want to try to use dorseys picks



https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/09/01/browns-andrew-berry-nfl-draft/

I mean if JOK, DNP, and Emerson are the best picks of all your drafts.. you are a failure...for every JOK theres like 10 Tommy Togai.

If "we" are going to give Dorsey credit for Detroit, shouldn't we give Berry credit for Dorsey's picks when they overlapped here (I.e, 2018) or credit for the Eagles when he was there? Basically, bringing up Detroit for Dorsey seems a bit of a stretch.

Dorsey picked 1 and 4 (2018) in a single draft. Berry picked at 10 and 26 in all of his drafts as far as 1st rounders. When you have early picks, you can get better players. Dorsey picked Baker over Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson.

Baker is doing well throwing jump balls to Mike Evans. So did Manziel. Evans is pretty much a cheat code. And Tampa Bay hasn't had the toughest schedule.

It's a long season. It's too soon to crown or bury anybody.

I thought Genard Avery would be something decent for us, and then he wasn't lol .. but he wasn't the worst of them

LOL - That's a very funny and a very telling comment. There's a pretty long list of WR I would rate ahead of Mike Evans as targets that go get a jump ball or are some sort of 'cheat code' for their QB. None of the QB's that throw to those QB's would get dismissed out of hand by such a comment ... and when Watson was "elite" in Houston he had the then best WR in the NFL, so are you also saying DW wasn't really any good when he throw up balls for Hopkins to go get?

It's just a drive-by comment that's not really reflected in the stats.

Air yards per attempt in Cleveland... 9.3/8.5/8.5/8.6

This year in Tampa... 7.5

I'm not ignoring the fact that Evans is a good candidate for jump balls, but that's not a very good explanation of Baker's early success this season.

I think some of Baker's success is who they have played too. Not exactly the Steelers, Bengals, Ravens, 49ers etc

Hopkins got traded before Watson's best statistical year.

There are receivers I would take over Mike Evans. But, if I'm just looking at throw it up, doesn't matter if he's blanketed, YOLO balls, I can't name anyone I'd rather have. (Except perhaps a younger Mike Evans.) No one does better at catching balls that are high and behind. Hopkins is good, but he doesn't have quite the catch radius of Evans. Same for AJ Brown and DK.

I didn't dismiss Baker out of hand. I actually picked him up for my fantasy team. It was more complimenting Evans than bashing Mayfield. Mike's pretty much the reason Johnny Football was a thing. If no one is open, a QB can chuck the ball in Evans general direction and good things tend to happen. That was pretty much the Texas A&M offense.

Hard to argue that point.

j/c

I think Baker's success this year is down to a lot of things: Opposition is no doubt a part of it. But let's face it, how many hundreds of times did you and everyone else read 'the NFL has figured him out' - just rush him and he crumbles and he can't see over defenders. Well seriously if it was true then even bad teams could have and would have done that. . . He also can't read NFL defenses when they switch things up pre & post snap... again, hard to go to the Rams and have 2 days with the play book and have a good game if these things were really true.

I think other things that contribute to BM success to date in Tampa - being healthy. Having been on a rough 2 year ride he's matured (although not completely). He's in a place that plays to his arm talent strengths. He's in a place he feels wanted. He's on a better coached team. He might not be all world or elite. But he's good enough to be a top 20 - maybe top 15 QB. JMO. He did some great things here in CLE as a rookie and once Kitchens departed. He also did some dumb and bad things here. I'll always root for him after what he did his rookie year against all the odds (Hue Jackson, Not having any first team reps before going into his first game, having a toxic situation to deal with in Hue Jackson and Todd Hayley etc) and for being part team who won a play off game.

That's great that you'll always root for him for the reasons you listed.

But you should be angry with him as well. His immaturity and lack of progress is why the team moved on. Both of those were under his control. I read a pretty telling quote from him the other day. He was asked how his relationship with OBJ currently was. He said they are now good and squashing it was part of him maturing.

The version of Baker here that people have built up in their minds I don't think matched the reality behind the scenes. Sucks too because Baker, in general, was a good fit for the city of Cleveland.

As for his success this year, I've watched almost every snap and he looks the same to me. Don't underestimate the affect low expectations and barely hanging on in tne league have as well. He had good moments in Cleveland, some really good ones. He's had a few so far.this year. I don't see much of a different QB when I watch him.

I'll take the 'L' on 2017. That said...

Your goalpost moving is outstanding in that you're still missing your target. Yes, Stefanski, in all his mediocrity is head and shoulders better than Freddie. You're conveniently forgetting the absurd lack of discipline and circus that was going on when we moved from Hue to Freddie. Gregg Williams went 5-3 after taking over for Hue. Freddie then went 6-10. Stefanski is 27-25, with his best year being when he essentially got the roster that Freddie handed him. Nobody should be going to bat for Stefanski right now, but you trying to say he's worse than Freddie is ridiculous.

You said name a a WR we haven't developed. It was only after it was made clear this was a ridiculous take that you moved the goalpost... but that still doesn't help your argument because I'd take DPJ over anything Dorsey drafted (Ratley or Calloway).

Since you (inexplicably) love to crap on JOK, is there a better LB that Dorsey drafted? Name him.

What has Dorsey's involvement been with Detroit? He's not the GM, he's a Sr. Personnel Exec. He didn't hire Dan Campbell (he was hired like a week later). Not that it has anything to do with your original (wrong) topic, but if we're going to use Dorsey's (limited) involvement with Detroit, then we're going to have to stack that against Berry's time with Philly.


Baker... wow. What's he done since leaving here? He got benched for Sam Darnold at one point... among other things. He's having a good year, but maybe you want to look a little closer at their game vs Philly before you start making this about him. He had less than 200 yards, an INT, and a garbage time TD. He is healthy, though so he's got that going for him. I'll always root for him because I was sad we shipped him off, but using him as evidence of a bad move by Berry is... not strong.

Actually, I take back what I said. Your goalposting moving is comically bad in that barely anything you've used as evidence stands up to any amount of scrutiny. The only reason I'm keeping this going is because your takes in this thread remind me of your posts about the Cavs when they beat GS, and I'm trying to bring that energy for the Browns.

lol.. you can't take a loss periord.. you're wrong on so many accounts.. not going to say anything more than this... I never said Stefanski was worse than freddie.. i said stefanki isn't that great and he's not a good coach.. He took over a team and had no training camp and every camp he's run and every season the record gets worse.. and Dorsey drafted Hill and Kelce.. i'd take either over anything berry has drafted.. and you might want to look at what he does in detroit... he's alot more involved than Berry was in philly.. Berry sucks at drafting..period.. you still haven't named a single player that compares to anything I posted. Jok is ranked in the 80s.. so yeah..

The big difference is Stefanski was able to take the roster Dorsey handed him and take the Browns to the playoffs. He hasn't been able to replicate that with the player turnover and roster Berry has given him since. So maybe people should think about what the real problem is here.

Dorsey sucked at hiring coaches. But no matter how anyone slices it, he put together a roster Stefanski could win with.

Baker carried him that first year… Ski is an issue.

And while that looks good on paper, if one looks at it from a practical standpoint does that really hold water? The Bengals looked like dog crap against every team they had faced until Burrows appeared like he began to wake up last week. The only game they even competed in was against the Ravens until last week. They scored only three points in two of their first four games. The Steelers with Kenny Pickett at QB? Even the Ravens were beaten by the Colts and the Pickett led Steelers. None of those three teams are exactly lighting it up or showing any consistency so far this season.

I understand that Browns fans think in terms of what these teams have been in the past and how tough this division has been in the past. But when you are focusing on this season thus far I don't think it applies. At least not at this point in time.

I'm sure that's your story and you're sticking to it. Baker did have a good td to int. ratio in 2020. But he only threw for 62.8%. He threw for 3563 yards. Now that's pretty good QB play. But it's not "the QB put the team on his back" kind of numbers.

Haven't seen that from Watson since 2020 either.....just saying!

Which is pretty much my point. Stefanski isn’t a great coach but he atleast proved he can get a team to the playoffs. Berry hasnt proven he can do anything but spend money in FA, which is fine as long as it’s complimentary to the draft. Had we kept Dorsey and had stefanski id venture a guess we would have prob made the playoffs most of these last few years, even with Baker. I don’t think Dorsey would have given the draft capital to get Watson. I think he would have drafted a replacement if the consensus was to move on from baker. A good personnel guy don’t squander that much draft capital that’s mired in drama and uncertainty. It’s a kiss of death when it plays out like it has. For everyone involved let’s hope Watson turns it on

I don't disagree. I disliked, well more than disliked the trade form the very beginning for multiple reasons. I did see flashes of it in the Titans game.

It certainly appears as of now that this is the second wasted year of a five year deal with watson. Even if he returns next year to his former form they will get 60% of what they paid for. One possible bit of luck is that after the 49'ers they have the Colts, Seahawks and Cardinals coming next on the schedule.

But as it currently stands the odds of them getting a good return on the watson investment isn't looking like a solid bet.

Excuse my candor, but Watson isn't, wasn't, hasn't been paid or given that ridiculous fully guaranteed contract for flashes against a bottom tier team. Now he's missed 3-weeks so the excuse train about rust and lack of work for timing will be flying. If he ever does get up to speed, I suspect it will most likely be after the Browns are eliminated in mean nothing games much like his 2020 driven results.

I've already posted elsewhere on the board that as of now it appears that two years of his five year contract have been a waste and at best the Browns will only get 60% of what they paid for in that contract. And that's if watson doesn't go off the rails here like he did in Houston. It was huge risk and I don't see it paying off. I'm certainly not one that's going to make excuses for watson or how this trade has worked out. If I had things my way that trade would have never been made in the first place. But here we are. Please see my sig. if you have any doubts about that.

I took a TON of grief over that sig. for a long time. Not so much anymore.

DITO

Hello Browns fans!
I’m new an I just want to see our team win 🏆!
That being said, I believe it’s all about the money, which in my opinion started along time ago!
It’s the way things are an we as fans can’t do anything about it except buy into the BS they are giving us!
On paper we are as good as any team out there, but we’re not the Team they want to win it all!
Your guess is as good as mine who’s next to win it all!
Cheers!!!

a concern of mine: the Colts/Seahawks/Cardinals stretch looks tougher now than it did a month ago. Indy and Seattle are basically pick'ems and the Cards are feisty

I agree 100% - I don't know if 'angry' is the right word. But I blame / hold him accountable for his immaturity and was disappointed. Frustrated and pissed might be a better expression than 'angry' - though at that point we're splitting hairs.

We've discussed it before - I'll root for him because of the reasons I gave. My opinion of his ceiling is much higher than yours ever was and I bought into the 'excuses' for his worst performances as a Brown and in CLT and under Rhule he had zero chance. And yes - frustrated and blame him for his immaturity issues that made everything harder and eventually was the root cause of his departuture from CLE - in hindsight after the Steelers game his departure was inevitable ... if we'd gone and got Carr or one of the promising QB's in the draft then it might have been the best thing for the Browns. Considering what we gave up for Watson and his performance to date - it looks like we made bad decisions about how to replace him.

Just some general comments concerning Stefanski's immediate future as the Browns OC...

While we feel good about the win yesterday, Stefanski's offense has a lot of work to do if they are going to be ready for the game at Indy next Sunday.

The Browns are approaching a point in the schedule where they will have an opportunity to stack some wins at the Colts this week, then at Seattle and home for the Cards before going to the Ravens. Hopefully Stefanski will take advantage of this upcoming opportunity.

The offense is still lagging but they can make this work if everyone builds upon the 9ers win.

Kevin Stephanski, who I have just read get bashed over and over, just beat the #1 team in the NFL with two back ups on the Oline, back up running back, and a practice squad QB.

Right, but it doesn't hurt anything if you aren't starting a 3rd, maybe 2nd string QB. That is a factor that can impede the process.

the good news about our O: we seemed to figure a bit out in the run game yesterday. Gaining 160 yards vs SF is tough, but we gained some steam

Just going by memory, we seemed to open holes between the tackles, running straight at them. A buck sixty against the 49er defence is impressive.

yeah we started going off tackle and pin/pulling the edges .. really used their technique against them (pinning the DE's inside, much like they were doing to us in the first half with CMC)

I noticed yesterday against SF that Stefanski was pissed at the refs at times, running his mouth. Good to see that 🔥

especially the one time that was a tricky tack DPI on us that extended a drive

I think one has to consider that the Browns putting up 19 points against the 9er's D is nothing to sneeze at. Out of six games the 9er's have played, that's the second most points scored against them this season. All done with no Chubb and an XFL QB.

Says something for taking your 3 points when given the opportunity, imo.

That's easier to do when you know your defense can hold it's own against the best.

Edit to add: Also easier when you know your kicker doesn't kick like he's blindfolded.

I agree on all counts. How you make the call on taking the FG verses going for it on 4th down should certainly take all of the circumstances around you into consideration and is a critical part of the decision making process.

....and let's not forget the Njoku TD that was called back. Elves could have dropped 25,26 on them.

Ouch.

Not for us.

no wonder pukesburgh is calling for Canada's head.

We have an XFL QB?? Walker is in the NFL.

He may have been in the XFL...I don't know one way or the other, but he is in the NFL and has played in the NFL. We don't have an XFL player on our roster.

Why do you keep saying that?

That is an interesting chart.

Mainly because the offense has had one productive game.

We really don't know what this offense can do. Nick is gone. DW has missed two games.

Until we play more games with a starting qb in place for a stretch of games. We don't know what the offense can do.

What we do know is that the defense is for real. Defenses typically do not slump.

This defense has gain courage. There is no doubt whatsoever that the players on defense believe in what they are doing and can do.

They are confident.

If the offense can gain that type of confidence. the sky is the limit.

The chart really muddies the water in the KS debate. You look at that through the lens of missing Chubb, parts of your Oline and now DW. Our place on that list could actually be lower than it should considering the circumstances going into the Ravens game (one could argue).

There are things going on in the offense that you can look at and hang your hat on. The question remains, however, why aren't we translating that into points/wins?

You mean Jim Swartz Defense just beat the number 1 team. Despite horrific time management and play calls in the final 3 minutes. Don’t forget a missed FG that was as close to routine as they come.

Stefanski had very little to do with that win.

As last season came to an end, KS and his consistency was a major point of conversation.

No doubt he has been serviceable, but with the roster he has had, he should have had more victories. Of course he has more wins than any other coach since 99. Doubt it is even close. How many coaches won more than 4 games in multiple seasons?

I have seen the excuses and the blame on here and other platforms. Again my assessment is not personal but result driven. KS gets out-coached consistently in games. The difference this year is we have atop tier D & DC. Period!!!!!!!! This gives KS a bit of a cushion.

He has not improved in crucial moments in game. This point was driven home during the 49ers W. Why in the F#CK is Walker throwing the ball when we are already in FG range??????

The Browns especially KS were very lucky that pass was not an interception in the end zone. There were 3 times after the Ford 1st down that put the Browns on the Niners side of the field, very near FG range that calls were called that resulted in the clock stopping.

Had that pass been picked off, would all you defenders still be as supportive?
Last season many of us liked KS but most agreed he needed to be better in some key situations. He has not improved in those situations IMHO.

It is unfortunate that Chubb is out, but the combo of Hunt & Ford has been more consistent than Watson when he did play. I do feel that opposing Defenses have a good idea what is coming just from our formation & personnel. That probably has more to do with our OL struggles than anything else. If wins can not be stacked and the playoffs are not made KS will be fired. No Excuses.

If this team does not find an offensive groove and it is the D that is responsible for a playoff spot. KS may and probably should be fired still.

Revisiting PJ Walker's XFL stats, career: How QB turned spring-league success into Panthers contract

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl...nthers-contract/fchixk14cbhmntqnozk4wfn6

I was born in Ohio. Just because I live in Tennessee now doesn't mean that I'm from Tennessee.

Unfortunately, our replacement QBs have made quite a few boneheaded decisions that high school JV QBs should know better than to make. Clearly, Walker should have scrambled into the wide open grass in front of him instead of tossing one up into coverage.

If the pass had been picked off, I'd have been upset with Walker. I was upset that he threw it. PJ had 341 rushing attempts and 9 rushing TDs in college. He can use his legs. He started 4 years at Temple, in the XFL, and had started games in the NFL. He should and likely does know better than to throw that ball.

By all accounts (except for the 2 people involved, so FWIW) PJ was supposed to take a look and then run/slide if nothing was there. The throw was a bad decision on the QB.

The play was a pass play.
Worst case INT.
Incomplete pass. Not as bad but the clock stopped.

How about not give him the option to throw in that situation???????
This is a situation where he thought he could be cute. If Watson or a veteran QB was in there, I would give him a bit of a break. But in that situation with the personnel and his history of trying to outsmart the other team with very little success, I think he is ruining himself out of town.

These are the in game situations that many of us are talking about.
99% of the time the Browns find ways to lose those games.

If you are not willing to give Swartz and his D credit for that W, I do not know what to say.

Also, if Swartz was not here KS seat would be much hotter.

I would love to see Stefanski improve. I just don’t think it is going to happen.

Do those of you who think he is doing a great job believe he should be back if the Browns miss the playoffs again?

Many of us didn’t think he deserved another vance this year, but understood why he was brought back but hoped he would have improve upon his in game management. Thus far he has not.

If we loose 2 of the next 3 which is possible, how many excuses will those of you have ready?

The bottom line is this…………

In order for the Browns to reach their goals and to win playoff games, Kevin Stefanski has to be better.

As do the players, but it starts with him.

I hope you have not defended Stefanski using the injury excuse.

Because if you have, this is very hypocritical.

Yes, losing two of your biggest offensive weapons is nothing more than an excuse. Why would anyone do that? That's why the 9er's offense looked just as good after McCafree and Deebo were injured.

And the Browns still managed to score more points than 5 of the 9er's 6 opponents this season.

We were well within FG range and had a down we could sacrifice. Defense was keying on stopping the run as the Browns had the FG and were looking to burn the clock down as much as possible. The FG put us up by 2, but a TD would've forced the 9ers to have to score a TD on their final drive. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to catch the D by surprise for a TD when a sack or no-gain doesn't hurt you (doesn't knock you out of FG range). The problem was that Walker decided to try to make a hero throw. The TV talking heads even said as much... he should've taken a quick look for an easy throw and if he saw nothing then made sure he ended up on the ground with the ball.

The probability (by far) is that Walker made a bad decision to throw even though that wasn't what was asked.

Come on now Oober. If you don't do exactly what their D expects you to do there must be something wrong with that. Are you trying to say that considering the actual scoring implications and the situation facing you on the field should make a difference?

Hopefully purple wasn't necessary.

Agreed Oober.

This situation falls under the same play as the pitch from Harrison Bryant to Hunt for the score. If Hunt didn't get it, then the complaints come in on why wasn't the obvious done by running the sneak.

I have no complaints about the call. I think I can go out on a limb and say Stefanski did not tell Brown: no matter what throw the ball to a receiver, even if it's into triple coverage. PJ had running yards in front of him. Players sometimes make dumb mistakes. That wasn't a coaching issue. If anything, I am happy Stef was trying to be aggressive in trying to get 7 instead of settling for the FG. SF still had a TO left.

And if PJ would've thrown an INT, I wouldn't have been upset with Stefanski. That was a player made decision on throwing into coverage.

You are a resident of Tennessee. Walker is a resident of the NFL.

It’s also sorta not an interesting chart. While all the teams on the right are winning teams near the top of the league there’s good teams scattered all over. Pitt has the same record as us, San Fran, Dallas, Cincinnati… I’m thinking this is one of those stats that just kinda gives part of the picture and maybe an important part of the pic but not exactly a bell weather

I'm not sure that you know what hypocritical means. Considering the post you replied to never mentioned injury or excuses, it seems a weird word choice.

What does a QB making a bad decision have to do with injury?

Yes, he called a pass. He was trying to win the game. Unfortunately, playing not to lose tends to have the opposite effect. Running into the teeth of the D is a give up play. I'm not sure why you seem to want that to be the team's identity. "Be a quitter, Kevin. Play it safe." Schwartz is all about being the aggressor on D. I would like us to have that mentality on O as well. Yet, I'd still like the QB to make good (or at least not awful) decisions.

If we miss the playoffs, I give him another year. Unless he completely loses the team, which I don't see happening, I try to keep things together. I don't see a better option available. I don't want a rookie HC.

If we win the next 3, how many excuses will you have? Let me guess, Schwartz will get all the credit.

I agree with you on the coaching front.

As uninspiring as KS has been after his first year, hiring another rookie HC to replace him would be completely asinine. As hot a name as Schwartz is right now, he's already failed as a HC in the past, making him a retread. Do we promote him and then retain AVP as OC? Offense is kinda the problem, but I don't think I can stomach the thought of a reboot on offense with the personnel we have already set up there.

before we'd fire KS, I'd at least try to let AVP call plays ... but I'm not usually one to say "lets fire him!" ... I think KS has some good qualities as a coach and leader, we just need to get the offense a bit more consistent

It's hard to have consistency when you have played 3 qb in 5 games. Once Watson comes back, lets see how things start to mesh. If it doesn't after 2-3-4 games, then we might be able to talk about a coaching problem.

Home sick today, so you all are going to have to endure a day of unusually frequent posting from me. Sorry in advance.


IMO, I'd normally agree with you but the problem in this case is that KS has been very consistent in his insistence on calling plays. AVP taking that over would amount to neutering KS. He'd be a dead man walking.

Also, I think the 'executive' type responsibilities of KS are his main weaknesses. The offense's biggest problem is generally plays breaking down due to 1 or 2 people missing their assignments. It's usually not a talent issue (especially if you ignore the last couple weeks where we've had to dig deep into our depth), and IMO KS's plays frequently have guys getting open... it's just that our O tends to trip over its own feet. That speaks to a discipline/coaching issue, IMO.

Just maybe at some point logic will surface.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/10/19/23923685/browns-49ers-colts-kevin-stefanski-nfl-hot-seat

yeah I can't disagree with any of that .. I think part of me would just dread starting over with a new HC

I hope you feel better tho!!

You may be right, but IMO that article really isn't really something you can hang your hat on when making the argument. It starts with KS's fantastic first year, then glosses over just about everything until this past weekend. It drops little nuggets like "doesn't take advantage of the talent he has" as a sorta attempt to appear objective.

Here's my hangup with KS. We live in a world where Mike Tomlin hears rumblings about his job security from his fanbase. I'm not trying to lend credence to these types of things, but KS has spent enough time in Cleveland where criticism is warranted. We've been Browns fans long enough to know truly incompetent coaching when we've seen it... KS ain't that. But with the roster we've assembled, are we really supposed to just sit back and NOT say anything about his handling of the team when we're clearly in a window of opportunity?

I don't think he should be fired/replaced, but that also has a lot to do with not seeing a viable replacement. The absolute worst thing we can do is blow it all up. I've felt that way after the Ravens game same as after this 9ers game. But his defenders make it sound like he's above reproach, which is equally as ridiculous as wanting him fired, IMO.

As the article mentions. "There is no perfect coach."

I do not think anyone is saying KS can't improve.

That is the main point. I stated he has done well enough to keep his job. Tomlin has the luxury of ownership patience.

Allow him to improve.

Fans buckle fast. Regime changes more often than not means delay. New schemes. Coaches learning players. Players learning coaches.

Sometimes you have to bite that bullet. This is not one of those times.

Let me ask you, do you think an NFL HC should be expected to do better with Brissett and a poorly playing watson at QB like last season? I know some call that excuses. But that's where things stood. Do you blame Stefanski for Woods mishandling of the defense last year?

I'm certainly not saying Stefanski is blameless here. But what I am saying is that many circumstances he has been forced to face are no fault of his own. Being left with only a fifth round rookie and a former XFL QB when watson went down wasn't his call. Having no better option than to start Baker with a shoulder injury was not his fault.

I understand that injuries happen in the NFL. I understand that every NFL HC has to deal with those injuries. But the saying "next man up" sounds great if the next man up is a quality player. You're only going to get as much as that next man up has to give.

I think most would admit that Baker is pretty much a game manager with flashes of being better in very limited doses. But he still managed to take a Baker led team to the playoffs. Since that year he hasn't managed to have a healthy starting QB for an entire season. Not even for a half of a season. I think if one is being objective that's a pretty big part of the story here.

If Brissett had this year's defense, we'd have been in the Super Bowl last year. I have no doubts.
At a minimum, it would have been a playoff year for this team that doesn't end in 1-n-done.


Stefanski is many things, and "perfect" or even "above questioning" absolutely are not among them.... but, he does not need to be fired.
He absolutely SHOULD be nit-picked, questioned, doubted, etc..... but, he does not need to be fired.

I don't even want to think about starting over at this point. KS and AB need to stay.

If we win the next 3 games.
I expect to finally win the turnover battle
Our defense to dominate
Take late game critical situations out of KS hands.

Or him to start improving in areas that have been brought up numerous times.
He is by no means terrible and I think you are confused if you think I want him to fail.

I am simply calling it how I see it.

It was more than the pass that was almost picked off. That was another chance for the clock to stop after it had already happened and evident that there was going to be way too much time left on the clock when SF got the ball back. Ford ran out of bounds after just doing it a play earlier. Put Hunt in and say keep the clock moving.

If we go 9-8 and miss the playoffs that is tough to swallow. And makes a tough decision tougher
If we 9-8 and make the playoffs ut go 0-1 probably harder to fire unless major issue in loss

Under .500 dude has got to go.

If we go 11 wins or more.
KS will have improved in game situations
He & Watson will have developed chemistry and should improve moving forward.

I am prepared for all scenarios and the only reason I feel the way I do is what I have seen for 3+ years.

You seem to be right where I'm at on this. Stefanski is nowhere close to perfect but even if our d had been average last year the record would have been much different.

I'd love to see Brissett with this year's defense and culture

So the play call to Njoku on the called back TD was Schwartz? The fake QB sneak for a TD was Schwartz? Yes, the defense dominated the Niners, and that helped win this game, but the offense, as bad as it was, scored the points necessary to win. Yes Schwartz defense is the strong part of our team, and lead us to wins, but winning with a practice squad QB, down one of your best Oline, and not having Chubb to lean on, and still scoring on the Niners defense does prove that Stephanski had a big hand in this win.

jim...not many are wanting to see the Browns start over with a new HC or GM but let's not act like Stefanski and Berry have earned high praise for the outstanding performances they have turned in so far this season.

The Browns Hype Machine did a great job of promoting the 2023 season as a season of high expectations from the Browns ownership down. Once the season started with the win over the Bengals, expectations continued to grow, but then reality began to set in with an unexpected loss to the Steelers followed by a win against the Titans and a home thrashing by our hated rival, the Ravens.

Suddenly, many recognized that the Browns were once again playing like the team that went 7 and 10 last season...win a game, lose 2 games. Put another way, many fans and media realized that the coaching staff and management had not done enough to change or improve upon the mediocre season of 2022. I was hoping to see a well prepared front office and coaching staff that matured during the off-season and recognized their weaknesses and put in the time and work to ensure that there would be improvement.

After the Ravens loss, it became obvious to many that if this team was going to compete for a playoff birth the management and coaching staff had to "lead", on a weekly basis and begin to stack wins.

Keep in mind, it was not just a few board members from this message board that showed their disappointment in Stefanski and Berry, but nationally the media was reassessing the Browns organization...

...Ranking all 32 of the NFL coaches

Updated 1 day ago | By Seth Trachtman
link

Obviously, the disappointment in the coaching and management of the Browns goes well beyond our DawgTalk message board.

I simply want to see the Browns coaches and management team put the time and work in to ensure the team is ready to take advantage of this opportunity against the Colts.

I simply can't allow myself to get excited about more than one game at a time...we never know when to be prepared for another unexpected let down from those running this franchise...specifically, Stefanski's offense and Berry's ability to judge talent.

Do you think quarterback play has anything to do with results?

What is so interesting about this list is the amount of time the HC has been with the team and posts on this forum criticizing certain coaches but giving Stefanski a bye.

Interesting facts about the list:
1) The bottom 3 HC's (Gannon ARI, Steichen IND, and Ryans HOU) are all rookie HC's taking over teams that lost 12 or 13 games last season.
2) The next 4 HC's 26-29 (Eberflus CHI, Allen NOS, Bowles TBB, and McDaniels LVR) are all 2nd year HC's with 3 of the 4 having as many wins in the 2023 season as Stefanski.
3) Stefanski CLE is ranked 25th and is the only coach in the bottom ranked 12 in his 4th year or greater with a team.
4) 21-24 consist of 2 HC's in their 2nd year (O'Connell MIN and Daboll NYG) and 2 HC's in their 3rd year (Smith ATL and Staley LAC)

According to the DawgTalk Message Board HC standards for retention, none of the bottom 12 excluding Stefanski should be worried about being fired because it would be disruptive to their teams, and they need a chance to grow and improve as a HC. This would leave one to believe that they all deserve at least 5-years with their current teams like many here think Stefanski deserves.

Berry has been great. Not sure why anyone would drag him through the mud. Ski just has no talent for how to use his talent. Thankfully, the D has Schwartz. Ski blows.

Ranking? Who is Seth?

If anyone does not look at each case in a stand alone light. Where all factors are considered in a comprehensive manner.

Then all they are doing is writing something to get attention for themselves.

Well haven't you heard? Who Stefanski has been given to play the QB position has nothing to do with it. I mean WHT hell is wrong with the Patriots? Bilichick should be playoff bound with Mac Jones at QB, right?

Per his bio on that site: "Seth Trachtman
Seth Trachtman is a fantasy sports expert and diehard Kansas City Chiefs fan." ....and that's it for credentials.

Lol

j/c

I've wanted to give a couple my thoughts but have been extremely busy due to the new Fiscal Year.

Anyways. regarding Stefanski and all things said about him. Let's start with the basics, we, the media or whoever has a voice/opinion on the team or what the players are thinking only means so much. Really, it doesn't mean much (just like my opinion too). We really don't know, even things that are put out in the media might only be half the truth. One thing I want to bring up is about Stefanski and team culture.


What I do believe is watching what is happening and going by some of the actions. Here's an example of what I mean: Let's take the former DC Woods. Last year was a prime example of this situation. What we saw on the field: Defense looked slow, they looked confused, looked terrible, etc. What we saw from the players: Defensive teammates calling each other out, pointing fingers, and in many ways blaming Woods. Is this what you saw and heard too? I don't need some random writer telling me what to think about Woods. I am literally hearing and seeing from the players the issue with him.

Now every coach will have a little bit of drama with a player. Thats normal. Brady and Bill B. had a few and down the line. So, the Baker thing was nothing. OBJ same thing. Besides that, is part of who they are. Outside of those cases, how many times have you seen players call out Stef? How many times have you heard any real bad comments? J. Johnson, Miles and few others had no problem when they were frustrated with Woods. I would like to think those veteran voices would definitely have spoken out in these past few years.

I think Schwartz only brought the culture in tigher. One of the actions I saw of this was when the team came out of the locker room for the Niners game. The defense walking out through the concourse/tunnel with the boombox coming out as a team.

Stefanski is far from perfect, but I think he has the respect of his players and that is what matters.

Steve0255

I think one of the issues is Schwartz didn't bring the culture tighter, he defined the culture. We even had one of the star players saying Schwartz is having an effect on the whole team, not just the defense. I thought the comment was an indictment on Stefanski. I don't beleive that was the players intention, but it was an interesting glimpse into the behind the scenes workings of a team four years into the head coach's tenure with a brand new DC.

Here's the bottom line...you have a project manager head coach (organized, dispassionate, by the book, doesn't coach by gut or feel, doesn’t prioritize winning over process) who has done some good things and some poor things over his tenure, but the results can only be defined as average. He made a fortunate call to bring in a new DC and hit that out of the park. Keep stacking wins this year and make rhe playoffs. Actually achieve something and the conversation is moot. Don't and the conversation is warranted. It's not that hard. Win. Games.

If we lose to Indy it will be the typical one step forward, one step back that has defined Stefanski's tenure. It simply can't happen. I don't care who is at QB. Two teams at two completely different stages of their evolution with different goals in mind. The SF win will mean nothing if they lose to Indy...and will say a lot about this Stefanski lead team.

Dispassionate? You do realize a lot of great coaches didn't throw tantrums like Woody Hayes, right? See, that's nothing but spin. It's about one's perspective alone. One could say keeping your composure on the sidelines helps keep your team calm and focused. That being overly emotional under stress is a sign of weakness. So that doesn't make your perception a reality.

Stefanski is 3-13 after a win. That simply isn't good enough.

Win today and start changing the narrative.

Stack wins, make the playoffs, and there will be no bigger fan than me.

I think that stat, not only from the category of "stats that don't matter", is wildly inaccurate. He was 7-4 after a win in 2020 alone, so I just stopped tracking there.

Agree with the sentiment, just have no idea where you got that number.

I just regurgitated it from 92.3 who I think was attributing it to Ruiter.

Maybe I misheard or maybe it was incomplete and should only have included the last two years.

The overarching point is still there. Start stacking wins. We are getting further and further from 2020, what appears to be a lightning in a bottle season for the Browns where everything just broke right.

We did.

He basically Granted Watson another week to get his stuff together before throwing him under the bus.

We saw enough of Watson today to see that he's either not ready to play or never will be

I can guarantee he's not ready. I don't know about if he ever will be, but he's not ready to play now.

23 games into his "activity" with the Browns, he's missed 11 last year due to suspension. He was not good in his 6 appearances. And this year, in his ...........what, 3 1/2 games? he's not looked good.

Sure, sure, suspension, injury, another injury. 1 and a half years into his 5 year contract, he's played less than half the games by a large margin. And "rust" isn't an excuse anymore.

So far, terrible investment.

Are you going to say that in every thread? Don’t you get tired of writing the same sentence?

Watson isn’t washed up, cooked or anything like that. He has a banged up shoulder, it hasn’t been a smooth first six games but to throw him on the scrap heap is very premature.

Yeah I don't understand the absolute declarations either. Still time to determine how this will play out.

That’s all I’m saying.

PLEASE PUT ME ON THE PM LIST FOR WHEN IT IS APPROPRIATE, I’d like to be first in line to watch him leave Cleveland. Until then, I’ll just hope he somehow gets better, doesn’t quit in games, doesn’t get his glass ass completely shattered, and he learns to take well earned criticism. So far I’ve seen him flash starting QB qualities in one game. ONE. I never paid attention to him in Houston, and if there were no highlights on YouTube, I would swear y’all made that ish up.

I have a couple thoughts on today. First and foremost, the Browns FO and Stefanski are lying their azzes off about Watson's injury. He clearly has something wrong with the shoulder and can't throw an NFL level pass. The guy should have already been on IR and healing. Instead, they are dicking around with this guy and he's either going to get more seriously hurt or be playing at a level that will be detrimental to the team. Second, I find Stefanski's comments about protecting the franchise QB just plain laughable. If that were true, he would have already been on IR. Even more laughable is Stefanski trying to say he wanted to protect his franchise QB. It's all to fresh in my mind how Stefanski threw Mayfield to the dogs when he was injured and didn't give a sh_t whether the player got hurt more. I'm not buying his smoke and mirrors - I suspect that Watson told him he couldn't go anymore which presents an entirely different problem.

Hey Cleveland, put the guy on IR so he can heal. Better to have him out the next 4 games than a shell of himself going into the final weeks of the season like your dumb azz did with Mayfield in 2021 and cost you a playoff spot. Christ, when are the Browns going to get a decent HC!

I don't think a 4 week IR stint is going to allow him to heal honestly. The way Kosar described it on a podcast last week, it's an injury that will continue to deteriorate until it's either repaired or you get a LOT of rest.

The QB we saw today was basically unplayable. Even if he's slightly better than that, it's still not good at all.

If I were making the decision, I'd shut him down and try to get Brissett or Cousins if Minnesota takes on 80% of his money to ditch it

Minnesota would want more than we have to give.

Plus cousins has said he won't wave his no trade... maybe he'd change his mind, but we don't have much in terms of trade capital...

We have like three more years, because we're paying insane money no matter what and the hit of a cut or trade makes it effectively impossible to do either.
So, he's here, for better or worse which means we have plenty of time to watch and wait.

That said, there isn't much evidence to suggest that he isn't getting close to washed up. You are what you put on film, and so far, that is absolutely sub-par to the extent that if we hadn't paid so much for him, it's a near guarantee that he'd be gone/benched already. Money spent, and the dream that he can live up to it (which may be a pipe dream), is all that is keeping him as our number one.

Let us not forget - it's so much more than money. 2022 first-round pick (13th overall), 2023 first-round pick, 2024 first-round pick, 2022 fourth-round pick, 2023 third-round pick, and a 2024 fourth-round pick.
Three 1st round picks. a 3rd and two 4ths.

Watson's ability to play after missing an extended period - and his ability to play in the cold - and his metnal toughness and ability to play after being villified for his actions by the National media should all have been part of the risk assesment process. I'd say the decisions to go so hard after Watson as Baker's replacement have all been monumental fails.

We can all hope that the performance against the Titans is the 'Norm' - but as you just said, based on the collective, it's the outlier at the moment.

good points about Watson ... I'm not one to say whether he IS washed up, but it certainly looks like it based on what he's produced

there IS the chance that it is just all bad circumstances (missed time due to injury, bad luck, lack of reps, etc) ... but, if you were an opposing NFL team and watched the film of our offense with him at the helm, you certainly wouldn't be as concerned as you would be with the top 10 QBs in the league

As mgh mentioned (and others have said), it appears like this is a big mental issue now too. He has zero confidence and isn't used to being the villain ... couple that with us needing to win NOW and him already being paid so much (and so hated by some), it magnifies and perpetuates it all

I am not sure how the team could have assessed his mental fortitude?

I do agree he seems to have a somewhat frail personality. When he is "the guy", he can be very good. When chopped down a bit as has happened to him...well, we are seeing the results.

Now we wait to see if he can get his "mojo" back.

Ayi yi yi.

Do you have the medical analysis and the MRI of DW?

Also please provide the full tapes of all the practices of last week.

Because without the documentation your theories are without merit.

Attack my opinion all you want. I know what I saw on the field and that was 1-5 with an interception (should have been 2) that fluttered right into the opponent's hands. This is the same crap that was spewed when Mayfield was hurt. Cleared medically to play, can't do any further damage, controversial reports as to type and seriousness of the injury, he's practicing but can't make all the throws in the actual game. Theories without merit - it's actually deja vu.

Glad your educated eye can determine so much from five throws.

Your locker room insight about Baker is about as valid as your medical opinion.

To be fair - it's an opinion that's echoed in many places. Not sure if it's a free area of the athletic but this is a cut and paste from Jason Lloyd:

Stefanski can spin this however he wants, but he benched his $230 million quarterback with good reason. Watson was awful and completely ineffective: 1-of-5 for 5 yards and an interception. He should’ve thrown a second pick but had the call overturned on replay because the ball hit the turf.

After missing a month with a bruised rotator cuff, Watson clearly wasn’t fit to play an NFL game. He made terrible decisions with the ball and had no accuracy or velocity.

I think I wrote in my post game comments - either DW wasn't healthy at all and it was a serious error to try to start him - OR - DW is what we saw in his short time in the game Sunday v Colts and that was really bad (again). . . . Neither option is pleasant, and you (royal 'you') can argue it was a really short sample size but on th back of so many lack luster performances for the Browns with only one stand out complete game vs the Titans it's not really a stretch to think it might simply have been more of the same.

My sinle biggest frustration in all of this is the choices that Berry/front office made to go into the season with DTR as your back up and PJ Walker as your 3rd option who quickly got called up because DTR is clearly even worse and light years from ready. That is bordering on criminal incompetence based on a roster intended to win now. jmo.

I agree that the FO could/should have done a better job at the back-up QB position. I am not saying it had to be Dobbs, but I think many were blinded by the light of DTR in the preseason, including many fans. I just expect the GM to be more in tune to reality than the fans.

As far as the situation with Watson, I think he probably looked ok, and Watson felt so-so to good enough, but felt pressure to start playing. I am not blaming Jimmy Haslam, but I think back to some photo that was up last week with Watson at practice and Jimmy standing 35 feet away watching.

When you have everybody in the building asking how you feel and watching your every move and you have the press and fans asking questions 25 times a day, a player has to feel pressure to get out there even if maybe they aren't all that close to being good enough.

Lets be honest here. The expectation is that with Watson we can be a Superbowl contender. At minimum in the discussion. If we lose X amount of games while Watson is on the shelf and don't even get to the playoffs, you know darn good and well that Watson is the one who is going to be blamed.

Kind of the opposite with Baker. He got blamed for playing when maybe he shouldn't have. The thing in common with Baker and Watson is that both came to Cleveland with a large segment of the fan base against them.

Where the hell was that thinking when Baker was here. Geez

In a way I agree, but I think there is a difference.

With Baker, he made a point in the media that he wasn't going to come out. With Watson, I think he was feeling pressure to get back in. I am not blaming anybody, or saying I disagree with your take. I just don't think it is a apples to apples comparison.

With baker we probably should have benched him for a few games. With Watson, we probably shouldn't have started him.

No doubt that the pressure to play has to be felt.

Berry thinking that DTR is the optimal backup was wrong. PJ ? He has borderline experience. He has been on a roster and played in what could be termed semi pro ball.

My preference in a backup is a veteran. I have no idea if Matt Ryan would be interested but he is the type. A guy who was a starter.

We as fans with limited knowledge speculating about DW health is foolish.

DW knows what he can and cannot do. The medical staff has all the information on the structural condition of his shoulder. The soft tissue and inflammation is individual. DW in practice knows how it feels. The coaching staff are witnesses to his efforts at practice. Honesty between them all is a requirement.

Together they must determine if he can play.

Berry subscribes to his "Browns Bible...the Depodesta Guardrails" for his guidance...Berry's Backup QB decision was based on the Depo Guardrail that the Browns should not spend $$ for backup talent and should not rely on Free Agents. Here is the link to the Depodesta Guardrails...Link READ IT FOR YOURSELF.

Basically, that Guardrail says that the Browns should go the Cheapest Option when signing players for Depth which is exactly what Berry did by keeping DTR, the rookie QB and making his first QB move on March 16, 2023, giving Brissett the boot because he was going to cost some money to resign. The Washington Commanders snatched Brissett up on March 19 and now the Browns are trying to get Brissett back after Berry got to watch his rookie QB play against a team playing their #1s on defense.

TOO LATE: Berry, the Analytics Expert GM actually thought that the Browns could go with DTR (the cheapest option) if Watson were injured. That kind of thinking will get most NFL GMs fired if a team capable of making the playoffs fails. If the Browns miss the playoffs this season, we must look directly at the judgement Berry used on the day he cut Brissett.

One note: It appears that the Browns coordinators are not operating under the same set of Depodesta Guardraiils...The Browns new Defensive Coordinator Schwartz is not playing Berry's Guardrails game of NOT PAYING FOR DEPTH. Schwartz needed to improve the Browns defense and he needed to spend $$ to secure the kind of players he needed and he ignored Depo's Guardrails in the process.

Peen..I too expect the GM to be "more in tune to reality" than the fans.

Lolz.

"If" Washington would be interested in a trade for Jacoby.

That possibility should be explored.

For a number of reasons I would love to get Jacoby back. He knows the team and coaches. They all love the guy. He is a perfect backup because he is more than capable of winning games.

Insurance. If DW is done for this year Jacoby gives the Browns a chance to win.

(In a world where everything goes wrong). DW never returns to being what was expected. The Browns decide to cut bait.

Jacoby and DTR provide a bridge to the 2025 draft. The Browns would have a young guy they could find out about. Jacoby would be the parachute.

In 2025 the Browns would have a first round pick.

That is the sky is falling scenario.

Hard to believe the Browns would throw away the remainder of $230. But hey **** happens.

For whatever it's worth: us cutting bait would not include us releasing him, because we cannot afford to. The accelerated cap hit literally cannot be absorbed, so, no matter how bad he gets, no matter how much we might decide to move onto another QB, Watson will remain on the roster through at least 2025 which means that us cutting bait on him involves him still being on the roster and on the sidelines.




The potential out is UNLESS we can find someone to trade for him and that salary. It's a little murky, but I *think* we can escape the contract by finding someone to trade for him. All remaining paid, but unaccounted for, signing bonus monies would accelerate, and I believe that we're completely on the hook for any salary in the current year, but I believe the team trading for him would assume the remainder of the salaries.

jc..

Something that might be an overlooked issue concerning Watson...how much did Watson look up to Brissett for support and guidance?

The relationship that Watson and Jacoby had seemed to be excellent, with Jacoby seeming to be so unselfish and helpful toward Watson, especially once Watson took over as our starter last season.

A lack of that kind of close support from a teammate that Watson looked up to...might be part of the problems affecting Watson.

I like the idea of Brissett/Gibson for a draft pick ... maybe we throw them back a player they want instead or something

I also think we definitely have to look at the QB position future. We all know Watson is here AT LEAST through next year, but with the current state of things, we can't trust him. Brissett at least allows us to stay competitive through next year IMO

My only critique of Stefanski right now is that he seems to have a tendency to play injured QB's that should not be playing.

JMO here but Baker wanted to play, he didn't want to come out and I commend him for that attitude.. But the adult in the room has to be the HC.. And Stefanski didn't act like the adult in the room..

Now, suddenly, he's doing his job. All I'm saying is he should have done that with Baker. Who knows what might of happened. In the end, I think Baker would still be gone and Watson would be here..

Love it. I'm all in on Stefanski now. He still does some dumb stuff, like taking that timeout in the wrong order, but he can learn those as he goes. Guys like Reid/Belichek/Carroll took decades to master the minutia. I trust he'll nip those small mistakes out in time.

The way he's winning with so much adversity is mind boggling. If he ever runs into a lucky season with light injuries and favorable ref calls (aka Steelers/Ravens type seasons) I think he'll win the SB.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic but I'm seeing things from him I've waited ages to see in a Browns coach.

Don’t forget to add an extension for AB too!!



Random old article on Berry when he was hired


As the kids say nowadays: Let’s goooooooooo

Haslam aligned the contracts of Stefanski, Berry and DePodesta on five year deals with all set to expire after the 2024 season.

They are all getting extended after this season and I would anticipate their contracts will align again.

They might. I don't think the 3 are tied at the hip, so there could be some deviation. I guess I would need to know what is a standard extension for a GM and head coach? I could see the number being 4 years, but if 5 is the number other receive, then we probably do that.

Contract extension

Coach of the year

Sexiest man alive

George Clooney’s stunt double

I'm just thrilled that he stuck to the gameplan yesterday without any headscratcher plays trying to outsmart the other coach. We couldn't afford to take any of those risks with the rookie qb, and it paid off in the end.

For this Browns team to be 7-3 with three different quarterbacks playing is astounding.

All the crap I have read on here about KS not being able to play to the strengths of his players has been proven wrong.

The players that have replaced those injured have proved that. Using Hudson on runs plays and Jones on pass protection against Watt is a good example. We won yesterday the only way we could win that game. Maybe now some will see that.

I went to the Pittsburgh Gazette to have a look. Funny the front page of the Steeler section read Tomlin lost the game.
Fans? The Steelers have no business having a winning record. They are -29 in point differential. Tomlin has done it with mirrors.

The most obvious observation about this Browns team is perseverance. The Browns play hard for 60 minutes. That comes from coaching.

Clearly the team has flaws. At this point we are offensively challenged. In order to really make a dent we will have to become better at passing the football. KS is going to have to decide how to accomplish that. Flacco is an option.

I am happy for this coaching staff. I want them to remain. We have a bright future. We might not reach all our goals this year. But we are in a position to achieve them.

He DOES kinda look like Clooney!

I have been a Stefanski critic. If he can finish this season off strong and make the playoffs, I will quiet those criticisms.

My biggest criticism of Stefanski was no signature wins. Nothing that we could point to since the Pitt game to get into the playoffs in 2020 in a league year with no fans. But he has answered that bell repeatedly this season. I think he has shown a lot of growth. The team is playing hard and seems ro respond to him. They believe and are resilient. Frankly we are winning games we would have lost the last two years.

My next biggest criticism has been doing so little with so much. This year he's doing the opposite.

There can't be any collapses imo. Need to finish this season strong, but I would love to see that and an accompanying extension if so.

He’s gotta be CotY if we win the division. Only other coach in that spot is the one in Houston. Maybe Detroit

I give stef crap during game day cause of some of the play calls, but I’ve seen excellent clock management and him finding ways to make this offense productive despite the guard duty rotation we have at the QB position.

Me too. I think (especially after we got up 7-0) he really knew the end game ... and I could see the look in his eyes when we were driving at the end of the 2nd quarter to get points .. he had some urgency there to get up 2 scores before Pittsburgh could adjust defensively at the half.

That's what every game is going to be the rest of the year IMO

My wife has a crush on Schwartz.

Game one: "Who is this new guy they keep showing?"
"Jim Schwartz... legendary defensive coach, former head coach, coming home to where he started to turn this thing around."
"Well, I don't know about all that, but we definitely lead the league in hot coaches!"

I was listening to The Ultimate Cleveland Show.

G Bush made an interesting comment about the game yesterday.

Stefanski held on to his plan while every fan and announcer was begging them to throw downfield in the second half.

He waited and let the defense give us that last chance. Knowing that the Steeler defense was looking for more of the same. More runs and throws to the flat with nothing downfield.

Then on the winning drive with time running out. Four for four downfield; spike the ball. Let D'hop win it.

Maybe who knows but it sure sounds good.

I didn't see the show, but was about to post nearly the same exact thing. I don't think it's "who knows", it's exactly what happened. Like it or hate it, that's one element of analytics that has a heavy hand in Stefanski's play-calling.

It was aggravating, but it took us from point A to point B and coach played it like a piano.

I think he ended up doing the right thing at the end of the game for obvious reasons. I don't think he did it as some grand plan to lure the Steelers. That doesn't change the fact that he certainly made the right decision because I think he did.

But here's the situation. He knew it would be the last possession the Browns were going to get in regulation time in the game. If the Browns turned the ball over, by going downfield it would leave the Steelers in poor field position to mount a late scoring drive considering the defense had only given up 10 points the entire game. It was a strategic move to try to win the game in regulation. It was a gutsy call and worked out great. And it certainly served to catch the Steelers off guard.

But can you imagine if it had backfired? Can you imagine what many posters would be saying about Stefanski today? And that's the thing about it. Often times it's not about whether a coach makes the right call. It's about if the team executes that call. I can just imagine people raising hell questioning why in the world why he would put the game on the shoulders of a fifth round rookie QB late in the game had that strategy have failed. It's a fickle lot.

The game plan by KS was clear.

Protect the ball and the quarterback. Give DTR throws that he should make while keeping him away from throws that require holding the ball.

Quarterback runs were part of the run game. He kept Hudson and Jones rotating on Watt. Using Jones more when passing. Jones's length gave Watt trouble in pass protection.

As the game was unfolding in the second half. I kept thinking. We are no threat offensively. We need something more than this. When the Steelers tied it. It sure felt like a field goal would win it. I was confident our defense would not lose this game. I was hoping for field position on a turnover.

When DTR hit Moore. I felt we would win. You could see that those plays were there. Those four throws were confident throws to players who got open. DTR stepped into those throws.

Really happy for this team. What a season so far. The way we have won games should not be required watching for those with weak hearts.

It would be nice to win big but we are not that type of team. We have to drag teams into deep water and drown them.

I will rewatch the game because I want to remember plays in situations.

Like when we ran the pistol. How we went back and forth with man and zone on defense. This game was well coached.

Not sure what you consider a signature win.

Beating Pittsburgh back to back including the COVID victory would be on the list.

Wins this year against SF, Pittsburgh and Baltimore back to back is noteworthy as well.

Haha. He's definitely in great shape for being 58. I think he also leaves his shirts in the dryer a little too long.

I was telling my wife this during the game. I thought the playcalling was very smart with the trojan horse and reminded me a little of the movie Southpaw but also mind-numbing.

When it was announced that DW was gone for the year.

It was so unexpected. After the comeback against the Ravens I felt like he was gaining momentum. Like damn we can do some damage.

I had little confidence in PJ and DTR. With this rock fight win over the Steelers. The way the team got behind this kid and their refusal to quit.

I feel restored. If DTR can get a little better each day. Get more comfortable. Get more in sync with the receivers. It is obvious how this defense plays where their mindset is. They play 60 and will not back down from any team.

Until that one big run play. It looked like the defense would pitch a shutout. They were swarming on every play. It was like they knew the Steeler playbook.

This defense will keep us in every game.

Should you a little worried?

j/c...

Interesting comments from Jason Lloyd at the 42:30min mark re: Stefanski's coaching this year. Makes sense because we are watching it play out on Sundays.

Basically confirming the Riz has been right all along and Stefanski is now changing.

I just don't know how many times I can be right.

It's exhausting.

I don't watch that show, but posted much the same. I think he knew it was going to be a defensive struggle as both QB's are limited. Keep it close and hope you get one last shot at the ball.

I read, or maybe it was a DTR PC where he said AVP gave him a sheet with plays and to memorize it. I am wondering if those plays were the final plays of the game, in preparation for the event we got the ball late with no time outs? Nothing says you have to script the opening drive. Pretty darn solid if we scripted the final drive.

Agreed Milk. He has shown growth every year.

He outcoached Tomlin yesterday…by how much, that’s subjective to each person’s view.

That last drive was an example of it. What was it, 20 seconds left, Stef calls his last TO and most are wondering what he is thinking using it. Calls a run play, tackled, clock is ticking, Browns hurry and clock the ball. The kicking team runs out on the field because of the play clock and no TOs. The kicking team gets set with a few seconds left, and Tomlin calls a TO to “ice” him. To me wasn’t smart in this situation, because that took away the mental pressure of hurrying to get the snap off for the kick. To clarify, having another thing to worry about besides making the kick. In my opinion, all that did was take the extra pressure off of hurrying. The TO gave them time to take a deep breath and focus on the kick and their duties on the snap.

Agree with Jason Llyod on Stefanski just getting better as coach over time, generally speaking. I don't agree with Crawford's take about analytics now being used less, either by him or the NFL. There are plenty of things being used and increased , in fact, because of analytics. It's just a way for people to justify in their own heads to now all of a sudden like Stefanski after they've wanted him gone.

It was a great show. G Bush and the "dangerous game" described my feelings exactly while watching the game.

The Brave Heart reference and "hold, hold... HOLD!" couldn't be more true. 🤣

IIRC, the Crawford comment started with talking of Stefanski coaching more with his "gut"? I do tend to agree with that, but it's more a matter of Stefanski taking the wheel and analytics riding shotgun. He seems to be less and less caught in the minutiae.

You back Stefanski because you like the approach and had a belief in it. You had a conviction and never wavered. I respect that. It looks like it is trending the way you might have predicted and that is a win for all of us.

I've commented in the past that Stefanski coaches by the numbers and not by feel. Now we have one of your favorites Jason Lloyd reporting the players are saying the same. My comment about myself was made tongue in cheek and for fun.

But this "people that wanted Stefanski gone and are now using this to justify BS"...don't do that. I think any true fan can appreciate the results and the job Stefanski is doing regardless of previous opinions. You know it's very possible he's growing, maturing, and getting better as a coach as well and has not been good in the past.

I would also let this season play out.

Lol. Hang in there while the rest of us catch up.


I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. Hasn't KS always been good when coaching with his back against the wall? He won COTY in the COVID season as a new coach implementing a new offense with a new team. What is telling you he won't go back to "smartest smartypants in the room" once he gets his offense restocked (people come back healthy)?

I don't think KS has been good for two straight seasons and only caught lightning in a bottle the Covid year with no fans and where he wasn't even on the sidelines for their best win.

No one has done less with more over the last two years. He also backed Woods for three seasons when that was clearly an issue. And he had one of the most improbable losses in the history of the NFL last year.

This year he has been outstanding, and I think he's doing a really good job. As I said it's a win for all of us if Stefanski is on an upward trajectory. Some may argue he's always been on that upward trajectory. I would disagree with that take.

To isolate the covid year like it was an anomaly and then say he was not on the sidelines for the Steelers win is total bs. So, what do you mean? He wasn't the head coach because he had covid and had to isolate himself?

He has been the same guy since he was hired. What from 2020 to 2023 he now is someone else?

You and steve have been wrong since 2020 that is what has not changed.

Now because there is no hiding from the results you are trying to say Stefanski is now trending upward.

You were wrong period. Nothing wrong with being wrong unless you can't admit it.

Yes. Heck, he may be a different guy now than he was at the beginning of the season.

BTW, you made similar posts when I was criticizing Baker.

So you were right until you were wrong? I can see that.

Similar posts? What does that mean?

Tell me how he is different? And how would you know? You are not on the team. You are not in meetings. You don't go over game plans with KS.

Do you know the game plan for Jacoby's first start? Do you know the difference in game plans between DW, PJ and DTR?

Do you know the difference between blocking assignments from Chubb to now?

In 2020 KS won Coach of the Year. This year he should win again.

The team has played hard in every game. He took this team to WVA early in camp to build team chemistry. This team is close knit. It did not happen on its own.

With three different quarterbacks and the loss of the best runner in football. The record is the same as the Chiefs and they have outscored the Chiefs.


Trying to claim Stefanski is a different guy so you can make yourself appear right. Sorry it doesn't work.

So what if you were wrong. Lots of us have been wrong. I thought Trent Richardson would be great.

I don't care about being right. I just want to enjoy my Sundays and root for a team that is successful.

I have praised the job KS has been doing since the 9er game. Repeatedly. I believe in praising when appropriate and criticizing when appropriate. "When appropriate" could be a matter of opinion, and I respect that. I don't expect everyone to agree with everything I say.

Does not change my opinion at all about the previous seasons. The last two seasons were wasted.

And I'm not sure what you are really arguing here. I guess it's not possible that KS has gotten better as a coach. The only possibility is that he's always been great and will always be great. He's always been a finished product. I would disagree with that.

And again, I caution everyone to let the season play out. Still a long way to go. Still a path to not making the playoffs.

I don't think anyone has said KS is great. He has only been a head coach for three years.

He is a good young first time head coach. Anyone doing something for the first time is going to improve. If you do a "do it yourself" project; you get better at it.

I am glad for the record because I want this management team to stay together. That is how success is built.

I would love to keep winning but the limitations of this team are obvious. How this season ends is still to be determined. Myself, I don't have expectations. Wherever this season ends is less important than having a sound coaching staff that can build a consistently highly competitive team.

Is that an Industry Term? That will be my only "M Cousin Vinnie" reference today.

Yes last season was wasted. Wasted by signing a QB who was suspended for 11 games. But don't let that fact get in your way.

"prioritize winning" ...

That's my favorite.

The offense was good enough to win the entire year last year. I did not see that team wasted on a suspended QB at all. Brissett was more than good enough and should have won 3 more games and been 7-4 instead of 4-7. It was Woods's defense that wasted the year. Thus, the FO went and got Jim Schwartz.

It's hard for me to disagree that having watson for the entire season would have made any difference. I mean how could a QB you gave a 230 million dollar guaranteed contract and 3 first round draft picks for playing have mattered?

I've been a KS sceptic. I've complained about the cute play calling. Getting pass happy. Coming out flat in must win or BIG games. I was critical of having an injured QB and 3rd string RT being 1v1 VS the best pure pass rusher in the NFL. I've highlighted games we were winning while rushing at 8yards + a carry and then losing while going pass happy.

I'm delighted we've won back to back big games. I've seen positives from our ay and the way we've seen the team coached this year. A great example would be the lack of penalties VS Pit. Delighted we had a game plan and stuck to it. There's reasons to be very positive.

But it's not all blue skies and gravy. Last year we got the most out of Brissett. But the Defense stunk... Stefanski supporters were all about the defense not being under his control... So ease tell me how suddenly Stefanski gets all the kudos for games won this season purely off the phenominal defense??... In DTRs first game KS was the opposite of how we aywd VS Pittsburgh this last weekend. He called a game as if we had a Vet QB back there.... We've had games this year where we suddenly go pass centric. And fail. Maybe it was genius waiting for the last drive before airing it out VS Pit? Maybe the game would have been sealed earlier if we'd done it sooner?

We're down oue stud RB. Watson **appeared to turn the corner and played two good/great games with his wins VS TN and Baltimore, and now he's out. Stefanski has had his share of obstacles. He's doing better than many or most would expect. That's commendable. That provides hope. But I still feel like the verdict is still in the balance. As others said., all I want to do is cheer for a winning Browns team, if KS is legit and a good or great HC so much the better.

So, you are moving goal posts now. First you said in this discussion that last year was wasted on a QB that was suspended. If that was the case, then Brissett would not have been as effective as he was. He very easily could have led this team to a 7-4 record. You can even argue that with a defense as we have this year it could have been even better than that. The main reason last year turned into a 7-9 season was because the defense and in particular the run defense was not good. The FO seen that and fired Woods and brought in Schwartz. I don't believe they packed it in waiting on Watson as you suggested. Your agenda might be clouding your judgement.

j/c

I haven't seen this posted and thought it was relevant to this discussion. I'm posting it may bring to light some points that haven't been given consideration. To be transparent I do support extending Stefanski. This franchise has been seeking stability and continuity since 1999. It is at hand. Hopefully, that's being factored into the leadership decisions for the Browns.
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https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland...veland-browns-kevin-stefanski-220864144/

It's Time to Lock up Kevin Stefanski as Browns Head Coach with Contract Extension
The Cleveland Browns victory over the Pittsburgh Steelers is just the latest example why the organization should lock up Kevin Stefanski as head coach for the foreseeable future.
Pete Smith
PETE SMITH
Nov 20th, 9:34 AM
95

The debate is over. Kevin Stefanski has proven himself as one of the better coaches in the NFL and richly deserves a contract extension with the Cleveland Browns.

With their win against the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Browns have improved their record to 7-3. Stefanski has not only defeated the Baltimore Ravens and Steelers in back-to-back weeks, for the first time in franchise history, but they've won games this season with three different quarterbacks.

Stefanski has answered fair criticisms entering this season, such as beating good teams and meaningful wins within the division.

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The Browns beat the San Francisco 49ers with P.J. Walker at quarterback when they were undefeated. They beat the Baltimore Ravens in Baltimore when many believed they were the hottest team in the league. Now, they've beaten the Steelers at home with a rookie quarterback. All of those teams would be in the playoffs if the season ended today and the 49ers and Ravens would be among the favorites to win the Super Bowl.

People are too focused on how Stefanski looks on the sideline rather than how players act on the field. Players across the board give everything they have in terms of effort. There's always this sense that the Browns are due to lose a game due to physical and emotional exhaustion, but they keep coming.

The team's culture is remarkable. Players constantly play for the person next to them, even when they have only arrived a week prior. A different player steps up and makes a contribution every single week.

Dorian Thompson-Robinson and James Proche made plays against the Steelers. Geron Christian has two starts at left tackle after being unsigned. Mike Ford had a big hit and then an interception against the Baltimore Ravens. James Hudson III seemed to just will the offense with his physicality in that victory. Every game, someone new seems to step up and make a play.

The Browns have a next man up, next play mentality. This didn't happen by accident. Stefanski's servant leadership has grown roots that have taken hold. Players have ownership of this team. They are empowered and trusted to make plays.

Amari Cooper having input to suggest players is a great example. A responsibility Cooper doesn’t take lightly. Most receivers are quick to say they're always open, but the second Stefanski listens to Cooper, that responsibility becomes real. He understands the weight of it and it has produced good results. It forces him to study to make sure he's right, keeping him engaged throughout the game as the team works to find solutions.


(Photo: Getty)
Stefanski, the Browns organization as a whole, has been actively trying to cultivate this environment since he arrived. Now, the team has a number of leaders. Myles Garrett has become the face of the defense, and the team in many respects, but they have a number of players taking on leadership roles, including second and third-year players. That has carried over to the field.

That process accelerated when the team was able to add professional, team-oriented veterans in the offseason. Dalvin Tomlinson, Ogbonnia Okoronkwo, and Juan Thornhill stand out in this regard. With so many of these players locked up for the next few years, this has staying power.

Just as a coach, Stefanski has shown that experience matters. In his fourth season, Stefanski has looked the part of a veteran coach. Whether or not anyone believes the trip to the Greenbriar was impactful, Stefanski knew exactly what he wanted to accomplish in training camp and executed accordingly, which may be more important than anything that happened at the resort.

That has also carried over to games. Even as some continue to criticize Stefanski as a play caller, he has come up with clutch play calls on a weekly basis, often utilizing players in creative roles. From Nick Harris at fullback to Harrison Bryant as their short-yardage quarterback to putting all of the linemen on the field, those moves have worked, helping to cover for weaknesses caused by injury.

Stefanski's game management has been outstanding in a number of games this year. Just against the past two games, Stefanski and the offense managed to close out games effectively, a critical component in winning those games. With 4:55 left in the game against the Ravens, the Browns engineered a game-winning drive with the clock hitting zero as a fateful Dustin Hopkins kick flew between the uprights.

The Browns had 5:24 left in the first half against the Steelers. They executed a 17-play, 77-yard drive that ended with a field goal. The Steelers could only kneel out the half. Then their final drive went eight plays for 48 yards before Hopkins connected from 34 yards. The Steelers only had time for one desperate play.

This has been a theme this season. Against the Indianapolis Colts, the Browns scored 10 points to finish out the first half and then went 80 yards in 12 plays for the game-winning touchdown.

The Browns are winning on the margins.

Yes, you can hang the loss to the Seattle Seahawks loss on Stefanski for his decision to pass on 3rd-and-3. He's more than made up for it with these other performances and the fact of the matter is it's much easier to fix a single play call than everything that got them in that position in the first place.


(Photo: Getty)
Plenty of critics want to give all of the credit to Jim Schwartz, the team's defensive coordinator. Stefanski is the one that hired him and plenty of national media were skeptical of the hire when it was initially announced. Stefanski also hired Bubba Ventrone, which has resulted in an improvement in the team's special teams.

That's on top of all of the good hires he's made to the offensive staff. It's a critical part of the job and Stefanski has excelled there. That's despite losing two offensive coaches this past offseason including Drew Petzing, now the offensive coordinator for the Arizona Cardinals.

Stefanski also empowers his assistants. He's not reminding anyone he drives the bus. They problem-solve as a group and it's been an effective formula, which may be the reason they've been able to attract the coaching talent they have.

Some of the complaints people have about Stefanski have almost nothing to do with football or his job. People complain he's not emotional enough on the sideline when he's plainly explained why he takes that approach. He wants to be in control of his emotions, always focused on what's next. He can celebrate in the locker room after the game, which he's made a habit of doing this game.

Stefanski's job isn't to make fans or the media feel better during the game. That's a job for a therapist. Stefanski's job is to be the coach his players need him to be. It's working. This isn't a movie where firing up players on the sideline is a critical component in winning and losing. Position coaches can handle that as he keeps his focus on managing the game and figuring out the best way to take on the next play, the next drive. Focus on what's important.

What's incredible is the number of people who think the mystery box will produce better results. The Browns picked Freddie Kitchens over Stefanski the first time he applied. Had Stefanski not applied a second time, the Browns would've ended up with Josh McDaniels, who has proven to be one of the worst head coaches in NFL history. Stefanski chose the Browns twice. And the organization is damn lucky he did because he's been their best head coach since Bill Belichick, which should be a lesson in its own right.

This is an easy decision. Lock up Kevin Stefanski and general manager Andrew Berry for years to come. They make each other better as well as the team. And there's reason to believe Stefanski will only continue to improve as a coach. If the Browns are somehow able to win their first division title since 1989 with all of the setbacks they've endured, Stefanski should be the easy choice for coach of the year on top of everything else.

Comments (95)

If one looks for the perfect QB, the perfect owner, GM or HC, they will always be disappointed. Human beings will always have their flaws. What one has to look for, imo is continued growth and improvement. Often times what we each see differs. What I've seen has often times been him being criticized for not doing what everyone thinks he should do. But there's a problem with that train of thought in my mind. If the people on this board knows what the obvious play is that should be called, don't they understand that opposing NFL HC's know that too?

What many describe as his fault is calling the play they don't think he should call. Instead they promte that he should have called plays the opposition would be expecting and defending against. That's their view of that situation. My view is he is calling plays that would be something they aren't expecting. Plays that would catch them off guard. When such plays are executed properly people call those coaches innovative, creative and out coaching their opponents. When those plays aren't executed properly they claim it's all the coaches fault.

Let me give you an example. Just look at the Pittsburgh game. Before the game everyone was calling for Stefanski to not let DTR open up. Nothing but short passes and a ball control O. And to his credit that's exactly what he did. Until... that last drive. Then he called plays for DTR to sling that ball. He opened up the passing plays for him.

As a result we see praises for Stefanski yesterday and today. He called plays the Steelers weren't expecting. He took advantage of what they didn't see coming. Much like the same thing he's been criticized for when those plays weren't executed. So please humor me for just a minute and imagine if you will that DTR's first pass had been intercepted and returned for a TD and the Browns lost that game.

Can you imagine how many posters here would be calling for his head right now for calling the exact same play? How he would be being called on the carpet for allowing a fifth rounds rookie to sling the ball that way? How he should have known better? How that was a terrible play call? Often times it's not about the plays that are called. It's far more about if the players manage to execute those plays.

Try again Grasshopper.

You can think that if you like. I believe you are missing the point, but that's ok. Watch DTR game 1 and game 2. If you can't see the difference that's fine. If you think losing games when we're running at 8 yards a clip and we start getting pass happy is ok, fine too. Theres people who say every play call is a great call except for the execution... I disagree.

I’m on record many times saying results don’t lie. A win is a win no matter what and Stefanski has this season shown that he’s capable of staying cool when it matters\ most. Turning the game momentum around against the Steelers was impressive. That took many with surprise.

His play calling isn’t sensational but Kevin has installed discipline and cut out rookie plays and unnecessary mistakes, that makes a difference. Two field goal wins tells the story. Our defense is the backbone of our game but Ski has started to turn water into wine at the end of the game, that’s new for him.

With wins the chemistry gets better and everyone enjoying themselves and with that it creates a better winning mentality. I’m not going to look for negatives as long as we’re winning so let the joyride continue. Go Browns! (all the way)

The first DTR game was confusing because of the uncertainty of DW injury. He was not notified he would start till game time.

The Steeler game he prepared the entire week however he is still a rookie.

The big picture regarding play calling IMO is over-stated. Any given play has many components. One guy can get beat and the play blows up.

Being a quality head coach is much more complicated. I cannot remember a time in 60 years of watching the Browns that play calling was not questioned. No matter the head coach or OC who was calling the plays.

KS deserves to be the head coach because he has proven himself in what he has done so far. Did every play call work? Of course not. Has he made coaching errors? Yes. Haslam has to look at the big picture which is: how has KS executed his many responsibilities? How does the team play under his leadership? This season the record could be different better or worse. That does not mean he is not the right guy to be head coach.

In his three seasons there have been many challenges. This year is no different. He has provided a steady hand no matter what has gone down.

The team has always played hard to his credit. His game plans have been good. He has developed an offense to best suit the players that play the games. Different players because of injuries he has adapted and changed plans. However one wishes to look at Woods and Schwartz. It is working now.

We can all debate about KS. I want him to continue as head coach. I hope Haslam sees it the same way. I have been critical of Berry. I have also given him credit. I think Berry and Stefanski are a good team. I believe if Haslam stays with them they will produce good results and with a little luck win a Super Bowl.

One more thought on Ski; giving Jimmy D a game ball was pure class IMO.

I agree. It's too bad Jimmy had postgame duties for the broadcast. That would have been even more epic with a locker room full of players.

I have intentionally avoided this thread because of the disdain of posters for KS.

Some random thoughts.

To me the best way to evaluate a coach is how he does versus expectations.

Marty could post a 500 record regardless of roster talent.

Staley has a great roster and underperforms. Imagine the browns with Herbert.

Aaron Donald made Staley a smart coach.

Bill Belechek is not as smart since Tom Brady left.

Jim Schwartz makes KS a smarter coach.

Tomlin finds a way to win without Big Ben.

There is too much bravado about KS abilities, but the he seems to adapt to the opponent and players.

Romeo once said that a properly executed and successful play will make a coach smart.

I think KS does a good job. He certainly does not deserve that trash that is stated about him on this website.

I have critiques, like not Benching Mayfield and letting Keenan go a few more games. But that is me.

we don’t always know the challenges of the internal decisions, but from a coaching perspective he appears competent.

My opinion does not matter. Haslam’s and Berry’s do.

He has maturedand learned from past mistakes.

Protecting his QB is one step forward. Making fast plays basically took Watt out of the game. That’s a sign of improvement since 2021 when he totally abandoned Baker and let him pay with his health because of immaturity and poor leadership. I’m glad Kevin has learn his lesson.

Install discipline and cutting out unnecessary mistakes is another sign of good management. Once again his handling of today’s roster compared to two seasons ago is day and night. Much of this is about maturity and not putting his ego in front of any decision.


Like I said before. Results don’t lie. Baker paid the price because of his own immaturity and stubbornness but Kevin Stefanski was also part of the problem. That’s history now but it’s good that he learned and rightfully deserve praise for his improvement.

Fire him now

He needs to relinquish play calling. If he does not then fire him!!!

I think Stefanski has had a really good season.

The Browns were due a loss. It's a shame it was predominantly due to the head coach, but he's built some goodwill, IMO.

I think you let the season play out. If the Browns do not make the playoffs, then you have the discussion.

There’s a reason very few HCs call their own plays, because it’s extremely hard to keep abreast of the whole game. The very few that do it well are the exception. Shanahan, Reid, Payton. The rest that try struggle. Stefanski gets tunnel vision. His situational playcalling and red zone playcalling is abysmal. He calls the same plays regardless of the personnel and that’s a problem. If he’s going to be a successful HC he has to let someone else call the plays. If not, so be it. Calling plays is more important to him than being. HC

Probably more due to self preservation. If you call the plays, you can't point to playcalling.

That said, I don't think he does a bad job, though this game wasn't very good.

There was NO doubt we were due a loss. Look at these wins:

at Indy, SF, at Baltimore, Pittsburgh .. all the final play in our favor

Playing in Denver (who needed to win) after two huge wins by us ... that's a recipe for a loss

It all will depend on how we can overcome these injuries in the next few weeks

Aside from that insane double reverse and not running the ball, I am not sure about EXTENDING Stefanski's contract anymore...

It seems as though every game, the or third 3rd play scripted play on offense is a wide receiver screen to the left. It is so predictable that we have had 2 INTs on that play, for a pick 6. Does he not change the look ? Does he not realize he does this ? If I can notice this, I am sure the coaches on other teams, who are looking for tendencies, notice this. A double reverse works as a surprise, but using the same play several times a game is not a surprise, it becomes a tendency.

Turn the play calling over to someone not so predictable.

well, the reverse/flea flicker type stuff around mid field is BEYOND predictable at this point .. you can set you watch to it. We gotta ditch that, especially with PJ Walker and Pierre Strong out there

There were probably 3 times we got too cute today and ALL of them resulted in big negative plays

What? lol. The reverse/flea flicker is predictable?

I wouldn't call it predictable, but just not very sensible to run with the personnel or situation.

First of all it was what? 2nd and 6 or 2nd and 7. Walker is fresh in the game. Why do that? We're averaging roughly 5 or 6 yards a carry. Just call a simple run play, up the middle/off tackle I don't care. Just keep it simple. Instead he brings in Strong who has been sitting the entire game and you expect him to run that play cold off the bench? That just isn't puting your players in the best position at all to succeed.

That is a logical response.

My feeling on that late flea flicker is Stefanski knew we were in deep trouble offensively and dug deep in the playbook hoping to catch some lightening in a bottle.

It didn't work.

When the schedule came out I saw the Denver game and chalked that up as a loss. We rarely win against Denver, the tradition continues. I was a little more confident about next weeks game, but not by much. Next weeks game is going to have a big impact on where this team ends up. Staying on west coast time for the week might have some positive impact.

We were due for a bad game, it happens to the best of them. Now that it seems like our best player at every single position group is now injured, we're going to have more. Nobody can overcome that.

Stefanski actually called a really good game.

DTR and Walker have accounted for 9 picks and we are sitting at like -7 with our turnover ratio.

You can't win many games this way.

lol no..he didn't.. you have the the 32nd ranked defense against the run and your lead back had 9 carries..

If DTR can't go next week, I would personally like to see Flacco over PJ since PJ's ceiling is about the same as Harrison Bryants floor as our emergency QB.

If I describe Stefanski with one sentence it would be....

One step forward, two steps back.

And what is their ranking in pass defense?

No idea. But if you're in game and your run game is working and your passing game isn't..... Should you call more pass plays or more run plays? It's no more complicated than that.... If you go run heavy and they stop what you were doing well, then we have a new discussion but it doesn't sound like that's what happened.

they have had 12 takeaways in the 3 games prior.. they are just below middle of pack in pass defense in most categories, but they have defended 44 passes this year... def not their weak point.. and kinda irrelevant because we are the ones with the rookie 5th rounder who was completing 3.8 yards per completion with no tds and 4 int and 29 qbr. So that screams run the ball and don't ask him to carry the load. We did the opposite and got curb stomped

I don't know the ranking of their pass defense, but I know the Dolphins scored 70 points on them.

Only a team Browns fans despise can make a 360 degree turn like the Broncos have. Do you think WE could ever do something like that?

He should stop getting guys killed.

I did a breakdown of teams and their QBs for the season. I wanted to add top injuries to each team, however it was going to be way too time consuming and subjective on who's key players for each team.



Let's look at the AFC teams

1. Ravens 9-3 Jackson played all 12 games
2. Chiefs 8-3 Mahomes played all 11 games
3. Jaguars 8-3 Lawrence played all 11 games
4. Dolphins 8-3 Tagovailoa played all 11 games

Wild card teams at the moment
5. Steelers 7-4 Pickett played in all 11 games
6. Browns 7-4 three possibly now four QBs in 11 games
7. Colts 6-5 two different QBs in 11 games

Teams still in the hunt or not
8. Texans 6-5 Stroud played in all 11 games
9. Broncos 6-5 Wilson played in all 11 games
10. Bills 6-6 Allen played in all 11 games
11. Bengals 5-6 Burrow played in 10, Browning 1 game
12. Raiders 5-6 Garoppolo 6 games, O'Connell 6 games (started 5)

The rest of the teams are 4-7 or lower
13. Chargers - with Herbert
14. Titans - with Tannehill and Levis
15. Jets - Rogers for a play or two then Wilson then Boyle
16. Patriots with Jones

exactly, maybe stop doing designed qb runs with stick figure qb's or having them out the blocking linebackers on the outside. Its the most important position on the field and it needs to be protected such, we don't and this is the result. Atleast if Flacco plays KS can't call any designed runs and force him to let the QB be.... you know... a QB

The team played a bad game in Denver.

You don't move the ball before the snap. You don't line up in the neutral zone. You don't commit mental errors in critical situations.

You don't drop passes in the end zone. And you sure don't turn the ball over.

When you do all of the above on the road you lose. That is a sure formula to lose a game.

I could see Emerson huffing for air. Playing in that altitude is no joke.

If one can not see that the Browns are offensively challenged. Not much to add. Ford is not in the same zip code as Nick Chubb as a runner. His vision stinks. He runs into the backs of blockers when the hole is right off his shoulder.

We are playing a second string quarterback and then a third stringer. If you take away the third and longs the run/pass ratio was 50/50.

You flush a bad game and move on.

We beat the Ravens and the Steelers back to back and people think we are Super Bowl bound. Please.

I knew when we lost. All the BS would be back.

It only takes one game among such a fickle crowd.

Hi bone. I don't think it's fair to say it's BS and dismiss any criticism.

To your point I just counted the number of passes on first down in the first half of the game. I included any scrambles by DTR has a pass attempt. It's over 12.... Compared to maybe 3 run attempts. The final drive in the last moments of the first half stacked about five pass attempts comma but the numbers speak for themselves. It's not third down anfong that drove the high number of passes from looking at those play calls.

None of which should prevent you supporting KS 1000%

I stated in the "Post Game." I thought it was bad game all the way around.

I did not like some of the play calling and I thought the defensive game calling was not so hot either. DT's played poorly.

It was a poor performance all the way around. That does not mean it is time to bring out the fire Stefanski bs.

The fact that the game was even in reach until the fumble on a play that I hated. That in itself was a miracle considering how poorly the team played.

I thought the TD pass to Bryant was a brilliant play. The two point conversion was a good play.

Criticism for a game can be valid. However, I do not think that when you lose a game it is fair to call for a coach to be fired.

I do support Stafanski because I think overall he is a good young head coach. That does not mean he will not make mistakes or have bad games.

This a flawed team on offense with key injuries. Expectations should be realistic. IMO if the team has a winning record and gets into the playoffs. They have over achieved as a team.

In general I believe the team is headed in the right direction with Berry and Stefanski. I do not want a regime change. IMO it would set the team back for years.

I’ve come to the conclusion that this was just a bad game against a team we historically don’t play well against in a venue that’s very hard to play in. Hopefully we can get somewhat healthy and prepare for the Rams. Try and forget about it and move on.

This guy is available for hire and to take over play-calling duties for Stefanski.

Coach Bootyskins to the rescue!

Denver is a tough place to play. If you have never lived in high altitude. Hard to describe it.

I know they went to Denver early to try and acclimate to the altitude. Still I saw Emerson huffing and puffing on the sidelines.

When you exert yourself. You fatigue rapidly. It is hard to catch your breath.

If you train at high altitude for like six weeks. You can get better at building wind.

The play at quarterback has been rotten overall for this year. DW was just starting to look better when he was injured. Expecting much from what we have is not realistic. If we can get DTR to average and have him protect the ball. The defense is good enough to win some more games.

I don't see a game on the remaining schedule that is automatic. We don't even know who is going to play quarterback.

Hell teams with good quarterbacks like the Chargers; it is still hard to win. The Bengals look terrible. The Steelers will go nowhere. When you look at the Standings. It is astounding that we have scored as many points as we have looking at our offense. Until this past week we had outscored KC.

Watching the Bills and Eagles game. We are not remotely close to those teams on offense.

I watch us play and hope we can keep it close to have a chance. The defense has talented players and they play hard.

Offensively we are lacking big time. No matter the play calling or game plan. We have below average running backs. The receivers as a unit lack talent. Cooper is an experienced veteran. Tillman shows some potential. The rest are just guys. No team is going to look at our offense and think "oh lord we are in trouble."

Even with DW we were a long way from explosive.

I am just trying to make the best out of what we have. Hoping to enjoy a few more victories.

The Clueless One re-emerges.

hue Jackson is STILL coaching and getting fired? what a joke

I’m pretty sure we’ve gone through 2 or 3 QB’s every season since the return. Managing it and coming out of it with a winning record = coaching.

KS has been criticized for his poor play calling at times and rightfully so but when you read the previous post about the QB’s that’s a tough road for anyone to navigate. When you look at how hard the players play for him and the respect they seem to have it would be crazy to fire him. We just need some stability with all these injuries and especially the QB position.

Context matters.

For many fans it does not. For organizations it should matter. Owners have to look at everything. Fans don't. Hell read the game day thread for grins. Fans want heads to roll after a single play.

We all know that quarterback is the most important position in football. That is why they get paid like they do.

Flacco will be our fourth starter this year.

Over the last five years the record for backup qb's is 107-195 -1. That is 34.4% win rate. The last years 30.7%.

j/c

Both supporters and detractors of Ski have valid points. My issue with him is he remains so inconsistent in his situational play-calling and his inability to get the team on a roll without a complete turd game every-other or every-third game or so.

To my amateur eye, he gets cute and thinks he's gonna outsmart the other team all too often...instead of building a plan to focus on strengths vs weaknesses. Maybe he IS doing just what I want re: building a plan and I don't see it...or the cute stuff would work if executed properly. But at the end of the day, he hasn't been able to have HIS team play with consistency without the turds I mentioned ^.

We would not - and do not - put up with such inconsistency from players.

Regarding player relations: That's only important when/if the coach 'loses the team'. Whether they like one another is meaningless. Between coaches, players staff etc there are probably 100 people in the mix. Not everyone is going to 'like' everyone else. Respect and leadership are what matters. Maybe Ski has that...I'm not in a position to know.

Some coaches are good at getting a team from lousy to good...not all of those coaches can take a team from good to very good. (Hello Marvin Lewis.) Is Ski that guy? I don't think so.

When you say "inconsistent", are you referring to success rate or the type of plays he runs during particular situations?

I believe as such in BOTH situations. My issue is with consistency all around.

Just this weekend, running Ford only (9) times is/was crazy. I know that Denver was gunning to stop the run from the start. But they are/were still a bad running-D team...did they suddenly and finally/only find success defending the run when playing us? Did they go from last in the league at running D to a running D that we 'felt' we couldn't succeed in running the ball against during the week? Did they not also 'commit' to stopping the run in their other games this year?

The Bryant sneak...not a bad idea or a bad play. BUT...we boned it up the first time...likely due to a silent count. Then we did it AGAIN. Did the stadium suddenly go quiet on the 2nd attempt?

When we are in a field position where we might go for it on a 4th down...is Ski thinking about that possibility on 3rd and 2 and calling plays accordingly? It sure doesn't seem like he IS doing that...consistently anyway.

When the running game is working, does he go away from it too soon/often. I think he does. I think he thinks he's smarter than the other guy. SO rather than playing a certain way until the other team demonstrates they can stop it...Ski is gonna get out in front of the situation and change things up and keep the other guy guessing.

On the trick play double reverse...not a bad play and not a bad idea...BUT...PJ had just come in the game and Strong had touched the ball from scrimmage like ONE time in the last two games.

It's too cute...it's oftentimes unnecessary...it can appear to be not very well thought out. THEN...there will be plays with excellent design and called well...even if the player doesn't execute. Or WRs reportedly running open and the QB not seeing it.

I don't want to blow this up and start over again...but I also don't think SKi is the guy to get us where we want to go.

When it comes to play calling nobody is always right.

I don't remember a single play caller be it head coach or OC that has not been criticised. I have been watching the Browns and the NFL since 1960.

Play calling is one small part of being a head coach. Game planning IMO is far more important. That also is only a part of being a head coach.

I think every fan in their mind wants to call the plays. It is part of being a fan.

There are plays when I see them that make me go crazy especially when they get blown up. In the red zone play calling gets magnified. Pete Carroll in the Super Bowl didn't hand the ball off to Lynch. It probably cost them the game.

My coaching experience comes from baseball. I played football. But I went to Ga. Tech baseball coaching clinics. Ned Yost was a friend. His son caught my son. We worked out together in the winter. I learned a lot about what goes on behind scouting and the glut of information a major league manager has at his disposal.

It taught me to not question them. Still I look at pitch selection and wonder sometimes.

Head coaches in football who call their plays look smart when it works. They get criticised when they don't work.

IMO that part of the job is not what defines being a good head coach.

And none of it would be a big deal if it wasnt that we've seen the same tenancy for his entire time in charge.

I don't think it was necessarily about them focusing on stopping our run game, although I think it could have been a factor, but I think in large part it had to do with us being down 14 points early in the game. I, too, would have like to have seen more Ford. More specifically, I'd like to see more Ford carries than Hunt. 9:7 ratio between the two is not my cup of tea. But that's just me.

So I tend to like that he is inconsistent when it comes to play calling in various in-game situations. Because if he was too consistent, well, the DC would know what to call and when to do it. I think the Bryant 4th and short situations are a good example if it. I feel like people (not you) are quick to call out a play that doesn't work, but don't equally compliment him when something "cute" happens. Like the T formation on that 2nd touchdown last week and the play call on the dropped 2pt conversion. Those were brilliant and there have been countless other ones that have been super sharp calls by Stefanski.

I think Stefanski has dialed up more of those, shall we say, "unconventional "play calls than other coaches this year. I don't have anything to back that up, but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. But I can see why he is.....his QBs have been Walker and DTR and we all know the limitations of the QBs at this point in time. So, naturally, I think he is trying to be creative, keep the defense on their toes. and surprise them. I like that approach and it's allowed us, partly, to be 7-4.

Obviously, I'm a Stefanski fan. I think he is smart, innovative, and players buy into him. I think his approach aligns with the FO and that is something this team has lacked for a loooong time. I think he has done wonders with the situations that have been given to him and the QBs he has had to work with here in Cleveland. And to be 7-4 and possibly going on our 4th starting QB is rather remarkable.

Also, one other thing I wanted to share.....

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-play-pct

This is a team ranking of passing play % in the NFL. The Browns are 27th at 54%. Comparatively, we run the ball quite a bit more compared to the rest of the league.

Those are very interesting stats and are totally different than the picture we see painted here on a pretty regular basis.

The issue with Sterfanski is he bases everything on execution/what should work because he's a good play designer. He doesn't give a lot of thought whether the guys on the field can execute it. His whole thought process is if the play design was good, the offense should be good too. He coaches too much by the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. Then his supporters say "look how many people were open that play!; it's definitely not Stefanski that's the issue!". He seems to have no real pulse or feel for what actually is going to happen. He needs to coach more with his gut.

Having said that, we could be in worse shape and although he's still making the same mistakes four years in, the team plays hard and is competitive within the division. Not sure you can find another coach that will give you that.

Stop with the facts already. They can't be relevant.

I don't want to make a big deal of this. And I don't want you to think I am raging on you.

However, play design goes into the playbook. Players are held responsible for knowing their assignments by their position coach.

During the week of the regular season the game plan is implemented. The plays are run in practice. All the coaches are watching those practices.

Execution of plays is imperative. They go over the plays until they get it right.

"He doesn't give a lot of thought whether the guys on the field can execute it."

All the coaches watch play execution on both sides of the ball.

If a reverse is run at practice until it is right. In the game the players are suppose to execute the play.

Sometimes the players on the other side make the play.
======================================================================

I listened to Joe Haden being asked what team holds his heart? He said I love the Browns.

But "the best coach I ever played for is Mike Tomlin. I love the guy."

I heard an interview with TJ Watt he said "every person should have the opportunity to attend a meeting held by Mike Tomlin."

I have never heard a player say "our coach is a great play caller."

When plays do not work and many do not. There are reasons when the tape is broken down. Every offensive play is designed to be a touchdown "if" every player does his job and executes his assignment. Of course that rarely happens.

IMO all the talk about play calling is misconceived. Some plays work. Some do not. That is football.

Maybe if we had Hall of Famers at every position all our plays would work.

I think there's a difference between play design and play calling.

I think Stefanski excels at the former and has his ups and downs with the latter. I thought the play calling against the Sfeelers might have been his best ever. I said before the game he needed to be comfortable going three and out. He was. We won. The play calling against the Broncos was the exact opposite. Maybe DTR was checking out of runs. That's still on Stefanski. Don't give him that option. He was fortunate imo that DTR caught a little rhythm and it was actually working. I still didn't care for the play calling. When PJ came in the wheels fell off.

I am not saying we should fire him. I am simply offering a critique. I believe there isn't enough coaching from his gut.

Facts and stats and relevance aren't always connected to tell a story. Facts CAN sometimes be relevant and sometimes CANNOT.

On our 1st possession we did not hand the ball off to a RB. The score was 0-0. A (maybe) QB design run and then pass, pass.

On our 2nd possession we went: pass, pass, pass, run by Ford (finally), penalty, pass, fumbled sneak. We were down 0-7.

On our 3rd possession we went: run by Hunt, pass, pass. We were down 0-7.

Three possessions - the first three possessions - and our 'lead' RB ran the ball ONE time against the worst run-D in the league. His backup also ran the ball ONE time on those possessions. With a 5th Rd rookie QB who needs not be put in a situation to carry the load. Too cute...too attempted-to-outsmart the other guy. We are a good running team and they are a bad run-D team...it's not hard to be perplexed on the playcalls and gameplan there.

On our 4th possession we went: pass, run (19 yards by Ford), pass, run (11 yards by Ford), QB run (likely designed), direct snap to Hunt, pass, pass, run, fumble, pass, pass...field goal. We were down 14-0 at the start of that possession. After Ford's second double-digit yard run in a row, he never ran the ball again on that possession.

So...it wasn't UNTIL we were down two scores that Ski started to run the ball...completely opposite of what we usually see. Then we had our 'lead' back gashing them (surprise, surprise) and rather than make THEM stop him, WE stopped him...outsmart 'em. Then we got all cutesy with the direct snap to Hunt after a nice QB run. Then we passed the ball 4 of 5 plays leading to the FG...against the worst rush-D in the league and with a good-to-very-good rush - O.

On those 1st four possessions -and especially the 4th possession - we saw everything that is maddening about Ski's playcalling / gameplan.

So let's see if I got this straight. When Stefanski called the Steelers game exactly the way you said he should it "might have been his best game ever"? But when he doesn't call it the way you think he should he sucks? It sounds as though you should submit a resume'.

Cleveland Browns
76 Lou Groza Blvd.
Berea, Ohio 44017
Phone; 440-891-5000.

To add to that, and speaking for myself, I've said my complaint is that KS gets pass happy (among other issues). That doesn't mean he's consistently pass heavy. It means in game when we're winning and running at 8 yards a carry he suddenly went pass happy, ran less and we lost. It is, for me, about having a rookie practice squad QB and calling a game like you have a seasoned vet playing.


Your breakdown of the play calling another good example.

It's not all bad - clearly - and we've seen good/great games and ability to overcome adversity. But for me not acknowledging the repeated trends that have materialized would be difficult. You can acknowledge the good and still examine and discuss the bad.

Ski the person seems to be a solid dude. Ski the coach seems to do the best he can. Ski the HC, that’s the guy I don’t like. I’m not sure if it’s losing culture, the whole Baker/DW situation, or the fact that he sucks at consistency in play calling and has piss poor game management skills in crunch time. The dilemma, from my POV is, can we be better with the next guy? The uncertainty in that answer should have us all giving Ski extra rope, IMO.

I don't think that is the right question.
I think the question should be:


Can stefanski lead us to a super bowl win?
Can we be a perennial playoff team with him as our HC?

I don't care about a potentially better hypothetical coach.
There will always be a potential upgrade for everyone.
I want to decide if I belief stefanski can lead us to a championship.

One thing I have noticed about KS is this year he is going for the 3 points more than trying for the 4th down conversion. Maybe it's the real confidence in our kicking situation or knowing with our current offense that points are a premium, but at least I don't have to yell at the TV to take the points

the Browns are one and one,

in the 2nd half of the regular season schedule,
and there are Ten game weeks remaining, only ten, in the NFL including the super bowl,

the one and one Browns, in their last two, need to avoid falling to I and 2, and get to 2 and I in this the 3rd game of the final 8 of the regular season, and
Kevin needs to find a way to get a win against a whatever they are Rams team, good or bad I haven't looked, would it matter? no.
and top teams RUN the Ball WELL this time of the year.

this may as well be a playoff game for the Browns side, they can not afford to lose any more, especially this week, because this is the only game they have a chance to win this week,

They are going to have to score points, a bunch of them.

Is the offense up to the task.

Seems as though both are heading for extensions.

Really don't blame all the past couple of years as the coach had to deal with QB changes among the many changes in Cleveland. But really think he has found his chemistry with the team. Offense needs some work but defense is keeping you all in the game.

Good luck with the fans Kevin. You'll be 7-5 coming home to JAX.

It makes a huge difference when you don't think your defense is going to give up 30 points every week.

Fans will always be critical. So be it. They have a right to express how they feel.

What really matters is what Haslam believes. He signs the checks.

IMO based upon our history under Haslam. Firing and hiring head coaches has been a formula for not winning.

KS is a solid head coach. Cleveland is his first job as a head coach. He has done enough to prove that he can win when the roster is good enough.

One year we had consistent above average play at quarterback. We won a playoff game.

I want to see what we can do with a top ten quarterback.

If the report is true it shows that Haslam is improving as an owner. That he can see the importance of continuity while understanding the big picture and the complexity of context within a football season.

At home, anyway. There has been a fairly large difference between home defense, and road defense.

Exactly. Preferably without being attacked or ridiculed for sharing their opinion, be it positive or critical.

I pretty much agree with your entire post except this part. No previous HC of the Browns since Haslam bought this team has went on to having ANY success as a HC in the NFL elsewhere. If there are any previous HC's he has fired that you think should not have been, please let us know who he/they are. I can't think of a single one myself. Now if you wish to say he did a poor job in selecting former Browns HC's I would agree with you. But I can't think of one he has fired I would want to see back or I thought firing them was a mistake, can you?

Precisely, Haslam was terrible at hiring.

That is one of the reasons that I think he is improving.

Kudos to Joe Flacco for giving it his all in a situation where he hasn't played in nearly a year.

A big "boo" to a supposedly top ranked defense for giving up 36 points and 399 total yards to a sub .500 team.

Finally, a huge level of "disgust" for as Head Coach that only ran the ball 23 times against a 13th ranked rushing defense while putting his QB, who hadn't played a game in nearly a year, back to pass 46 times (including the 2 sacks with a safety) against the 10th best pass defense. Really, 46 pass attempts for a guy that was playing "Mario Kart" in his den 2 weeks ago?

P.J. Walker 48.6% completion pct, Flacco 52.3% completion pct, and (R) DTR 53.2% completion pct and Stefanski has them throwing close to 40 passes per game nearly doubling the number of rush attempts. What a joke!

If haslam looks around the league and looks at our barely .500 coach and how we haven’t drafted a single playmaker in 4 years and thinks Berry and stefanski are the duo to get us there then I hope no one buys a single ticket . Haslam only cars about having enough money for his next Ponzi scheme. That’s why he bought the browns. He knows no matter how much they suck , the games will always sell out and fans will support with purchasing merchandising .

If you were the Rams, would you try to stop the run or stop Flacco?

We weren't exactly running the ball well today.

Guys, if you ever played football, you would understand that if a team has questions about the QB's ability to beat them in the air, they are going to try pretty hard to take away the run game and make the team best them in the air.

Add in the QB isn't mobile so he isn't going to hurt you on the ground. Stefanski has to throw to open up the chance of getting a running game going.

Flacco looked poised and made some nice throws to all areas of the field. The pick was the mistake.

IMO the mistake Stefanski made was going for it late, but was it really a mistake? Our D wasn't exactly looking like some "historic" D the last 2 weeks. Punt and maybe you never get the ball back. That is what you call the proverbial Rock and Hard spot.

Our defense was pretty much never going to stop the Rams when it mattered, so going for it was probably the wise call

We had our chance when it was 20-19 with 7 minutes remaining, got the ball back, and Flacco threw the pick. The game ended there

It never ceases to amaze me how individuals will go to such lengths to protect Stefanski. It's obvious that in your opinion, the LA Rams had the most bone crushing run defense the Browns have faced all year that it validated the lowest amount of rushing attempts by the Browns in any game this season. That staunch Rams run defense that was more fearful than the 49ers, Pittsburgh, Baltimore twice and Denver's weak run defenses necessitated dropping Flacco back to pass 46 times (twice as many as the rush attempts) to squeeze out 19 points while getting blown out by 17 points by a sub .500 team.

Since the loss of Chubb in week two, 3 of the Browns 4 losses have had Stefanski call less than 30 running plays in those games lost. In only 1 of the Browns 6 wins since losing Chubb did the Browns rush less than 30 times (29 against PIT). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Browns chance of victory is enhanced (no matter the QB) when the Browns run the ball more than 30 times per game since the Chubb injury. Instead, we have a head coach that has presented the lowest 2 games of the season in rushing attempts the last 2 weeks both resulting in losses. Hmmm, and this is the guy you think is going to lead the Browns to a Super Bowl?

Big news in case you didn't notice.

Ford and Hunt are not good.

Interesting you don't post when we win two in row. You are the fastest gun in the west when we lose. You can't wait to blame KS.

Simple question. Why was the game lost?

I will answer. There was no pressure on Stafford.

bingo ... we never touched Stafford all game

Like I said previously, I post when I see something outlandish and Flacco trying to pass 46 times when 2 weeks earlier he was playing "Mario Bros" in his basement is outlandish. I also recognized Flacco's stellar effort and (though I see you skirt the issue) the defense was horrid. There's no question that Ford and Hunt are not Chubb but when Ford rushes for 6.3 yards per carry like he did against the Ravens and 7.2 yards per carry against the Broncos (4.2 yds per carry for the year), you have to ask why the run game is not more involved. Instead, the Stefanski led Browns trot out a 5th round rookie one week followed by a vet whose been sitting on the couch for 11 weeks only to support their efforts by having the 2 lowest rushing attempts by the team for the entire season. Surely, I'm not the only Browns supporter that has recognized that when the Browns run the ball at least 30 times since Chubb went down the Browns are 5-1. It's also a fact that the Browns are 1-3 in games they run the ball less than 30 times since Chubb's injury. You want to blame the loss on the lack of pressure on Stafford and it played a part. However, what kind of HC do you have that doesn't have a clue that the team's chances to win are highly more probable (to the tune of 83.3%) if you run the rock more than 30 times per game and a 75% chance of losing when you don't after Chubb's injury?

So, you betcha that I'm going to be vocal when the HC screws the team again with his poor play calling as he's done for almost 3 full seasons now. I mean heck, we can't hold him accountable for anything the defense or special teams do since it became clear last year that it's not his problem and not accountable. So, who's the scapegoat going to be this year?

What you fail to see is the football game.

Ford's yards per carry do not tell the story. You could drive a truck through the hole he does see. He breaks a long run because there is nothing but daylight. Then runs into the backs of his blockers and all the other plays. And all you do see is the yards per carry.

KS called a great game. You unfortunately would not know that.

Your agenda is actually the only thing that is clear when you post.

One step forward. Two steps back. Right?

The drive where we scored the last touchdown might have been the best drive in terms of playcalling and execution since stefanski took over as HC. It was a perfect balance, perfect sets, great execution. Then the very next drive, instead of doing that exact same thing and eat up alot of clock and then kick the field goal and win. Stefanski calls a deep pass play.. we didn't need to do that, we were down 1 point and there was 6 minutes left in the game.. we could have taken almost all of it with a drive like the previous one. Our last 2 drives prior to that one, both ended in scores and took 7:34 and 6:50 respectively. It not a most of the time bad playcalling with stefanski, its the situational playcalling he's just garbage.. Same goes in the red zone. Its a problem. Looking back at the replay on the Flacco interception. I think the issue with that play wasn't all on Joe, if you watch the play..it was the absolute right read, Moore was behind the defense and had separation.. If Flacco hits that throw its 6. But watching it back, Flacco couldn't step in to the throw because teller was playing like every brown oline this year and got absolutely demolished one on one and driven right back into flacco.. had Teller been able to hold that block for 1/2 second longer we are probably talking about a win today.

Stefanski ended the Browns chances when he became impatient and called for a deep pass from his new QB who had lost his #1 deep threat WR in the first half.

Flacco had just engineered a 13 play TD drive that took over 9 minutes off of the clock...a missed extra point left the Browns behind by 1 point...thus, to win the game, the Browns needed to get close enough to attempt a game winning FIELD GOAL and eat up as much of the remaining 6:51 in the 4th qtr...and the Browns fly home a WINNER.

Honestly fellow dawgs...YOU CAN'T MAKE UP THE BS the Browns coaching staff does to lose football games..!!!!!

Be honest to yourself...Stefanski didn't give Flacco and the offense a chance to win the game the way we have several times before this season.

There is NO DOUBT that Stefanski IS CAPABLE of engineering an game winning FIELD GOAL DRIVE...but sometimes he gets a freaking BRAIN FART, forgetting what is needed to win a football game.

Another opportunity to win a game, but lost by the play calling of the Browns OC.

I agree. When we got the ball back with 6:51 I said we have plenty of time to run small chunk plays, move the chains, keep the clock running and then set up for a winning FG. I couldn't believe we threw that pass. Same stuff as the Seattle game!!!

On our last TD drive, Strong carried the ball for 7 yards and then 13 yards. At least one of those carries was almost a breakaway...early in the 4th. He never touched the ball again.

After that drive, the D got a 3-and-out...we were down by one. We had just methodically marched down the field for a TD. Then the long ball int on the first play to essentially end the game.

Oh...I forgot...I guess Hunt is our lead back again.

I keep seeing the same cute BS and the stopping of ourselves offensively. Ski can't help himself...it's who he is. I don't think his tendencies are what leads to winning seasons and playoff appearances.

When does on-the-job training turn into a consistent, winning program?

I can't wait until next year when we hear about DW4 just needing time to shake off the rust.

The way things have been going with DW we better keep Joe Flacco around as a backup for next year

Numerous other posters are saying the exact same thing about Stefanski. I guess they all have an agenda too according to your thought process. You call it an agenda - I call it calling out the guy that has had a FO deliver the highest spend in the entire NFL over the last 3 years to get a winner in Cleveland and the guy has failed twice already in failing to even deliver a winning season.

I mean come on man!

The Browns revamped the WR room. Supposedly has the best OL in football. A top 5 paid TE. A 230M elite QB who's played in half the games. Yet the Stefanski led offense is 24th in passing, 24th in receiving, dead last - #32 in completion pct, 6th in rushing yards yet the HC still refuses to run the ball, and 17th in scoring at 21.5 pts per game which is just .3 better than last year's 21.2 per game last place finish in the AFC North. Worst yet though is the fact that Stefanski's team is scoring at a 14.7 pts per game over the last 3 games which is 26th in the league and tied with WAS and only 2 pts per game better than Carolina. CAROLINA MIND YOU! Great company for a playoff caliber team, coaching staff, and FO.

Called a great game huh? Last time I checked, scoring 19 points and getting whooped is not calling a great game though it did bring their average up to 14.7 over the last 3 so I'll give you that.

So the total lack of QB depth is Stefanski's fault? The fact they don't have any quality RB depth is Stefanski's fault? The fact the D gave up 36 points against the Rams is his fault too? See, there are some things you can point to Stefanski for. Not that everyone will agree but at least they're understandable. But when you decide to leave out the big picture to focus on selective points it certainly doesn't represent an impartial opinion.

But you are certainly correct that you aren't the only one who does that.

I agree with all of you on most points.

The problem with taking care of the playcalling is that he has to focus on the present. His thoughts have to revolve around the playbook and what to do next. As a consequence his time is limited to evaluate his players, read the game and communicate with his staff. That leads to stress because of a shortened thought process and with stress comes mistakes. That’s why he can do great in one drive where we go all the way and do a TD and then in the next drive he become unsecured and starts to make simple mistakes.

Most elite coaches know what to do when they’re relaxed and without pressure but the difference between the very best and the rest is timing. Do the right thing at the right moment. Another thing is to know when and how to delegate.

If I was Berry/DePosesta (or owner) I would ask myself who’s the best play caller available and then trying to hire him. Let Stefanski continue as a HC bit on game day let him take a step back, concentrate on helping his coaches and coordinators.

Hopefully our GM is smart enough to wait until the season is over before making long term decisions.

$230M. Guaranteed. That’s a huge part of our problem.

Not saying we shouldn’t have go for a new QB but the financial packet and the trade was flat out a disaster. So far one of the worst trades ever seen if you look what we get so far after almost two seasons.

While I can't predict how it will all end, up to this point I can't disagree with anything you posted.

For those who champion more run plays, here is the complete list from yesterday's game. Up until the fourth quarter when the Rams had the lead and stopped loading the box with 7 or 8, Cleveland was able to run the ball with more success. If you look at the entire play-by-play list, you will see Cleveland had better success running the ball after a few pass plays. Cleveland must improve their passing games preventing defenses from loading the box.

• 2nd & 4 at CLE 31
(14:25 - 1st) J.Ford right tackle to CLV 33 for 2 yards (J.Williams).
• 3rd & 2 at CLE 33
(13:44 - 1st) K.Hunt up the middle to CLV 39 for 6 yards (J.Fuller).
• 1st & 10 at CLE 39
(13:05 - 1st) (Shotgun) J.Ford up the middle to CLV 35 for -4 yards (A.Donald).
• 1st & 10 at LAR 30
(11:04 - 1st) K.Hunt left tackle to LA 24 for 6 yards (B.Young, J.Williams).
• 1st & 10 at CLE 25
(6:28 - 1st) M.Dunn reported in as eligible. K.Hunt right end to CLV 29 for 4 yards (A.Donald, E.Jones).
• 2nd & 6 at CLE 29
(5:48 - 1st) K.Hunt left tackle to CLV 32 for 3 yards (B.Young, E.Jones).
• 1st & 10 at CLE 33
(14:56 - 2nd) J.Ford left tackle to CLV 33 for no gain (E.Jones; L.Murchison).
• 1st & 10 at CLE 44
(13:31 - 2nd) J.Ford right end to CLV 38 for -6 yards (B.Brown).
• 3rd & 3 at LAR 49
(12:10 - 2nd) (Shotgun) K.Hunt right tackle to 50 for -1 yards (B.Young, E.Jones).
• 1st & 10 at CLE 44
(9:48 - 2nd) J.Flacco pass short right to K.Hunt to CLV 44 for no gain (E.Jones, K.Thomas).
• 1st & 10 at CLE 2
(6:30 - 2nd) M.Dunn reported in as eligible. K.Hunt up the middle to CLV 3 for 1 yard (E.Jones).
• 2nd & 10 at LAR 38
(4:15 - 2nd) J.Ford left tackle to LA 28 for 10 yards (J.Johnson).
• 1st & 10 at LAR 23
(3:05 - 2nd) K.Hunt left tackle to LA 22 for 1 yard (E.Jones; K.Turner).
• 2nd & 10 at CLE 20
(12:29 - 3rd) K.Hunt up the middle to CLV 27 for 7 yards (E.Jones; J.Johnson).
• 2nd & 1 at CLE 44
(10:22 - 3rd) J.Ford right tackle to CLV 49 for 5 yards (E.Jones, B.Brown).
• 2nd & 1 at LAR 30
(7:27 - 3rd) K.Hunt left guard to LA 26 for 4 yards (E.Jones; J.Johnson).
• 1st & Goal at LAR 9
(5:51 - 3rd) J.Ford up the middle to LA 6 for 3 yards (J.Williams; A.Donald).
• 3rd & 4 at CLE 31
(15:00 - 4th) (Shotgun) K.Hunt up the middle to CLV 36 for 5 yards (B.Young).
• 3rd & 2 at CLE 44
(13:33 - 4th) N.Harris, J.Hudson and M.Dunn reported in as eligible. K.Hunt right guard to 50 for 6 yards (B.Brown).
• 2nd & 3 at LAR 43
(12:03 - 4th) P.Strong left tackle to LA 36 for 7 yards (J.Fuller).
• 3rd & 1 at LAR 27
(10:21 - 4th) N.Harris and J.Hudson reported in as eligible. K.Hunt right guard to LA 21 for 6 yards (A.Witherspoon).
• 1st & 10 at LAR 21
(9:40 - 4th) P.Strong right tackle to LA 8 for 13 yards (K.Thomas).
• 1st & 10 at CLE 25
(3:48 - 4th) (Shotgun) J.Ford up the middle to CLV 32 for 7 yards (E.Jones, J.Fuller).
• 2nd & 3 at CLE 32
(3:15 - 4th) (No Huddle) J.Ford right tackle to CLV 34 for 2 yards (K.Turner; A.Donald).

I don't disagree with what you posted. However, at this point with DW's season over it's now 138 million guaranteed and those 3-1st round pics? The way we draft in the 1st round we would have been lucky to hit on one talented, productive player and that might be a stretch. I don't know how this trade will turn out in the end but the more I think about it the more uneasy I feel. DW may come back and have a 3 very good productive seasons or the bottom could fall out. Time will tell.

I never really considered that claiming the reason trading away three first round picks because wasn't so bad is because they suck at drafting as a positive message or selling point.

I'm not advocating it as a positive message or selling point I'm just stating it as a matter of fact from our draft history. Some of us could have thrown darts at names on a board and picked better players than most of our GM's did since "99.

Stefanski had nothing to do with this. This was mostly a result of Baker Throwing a temper tantrum and Berry over-reacting.

Wait a minute - is Stefanski the HC of the Cleveland Browns or not? Who was the ultimate person and decision maker responsible for the roster cuts and QB room? The RB room? In 2022, the defense was all Woods problem and Stefanski took no responsibility as the HC for the defense based on comments here. Stefanski got his changes on defense - does he not have input for that side of the ball or is he still just the HC of part of the team? Truthfully, what's the duties of the HC if it's not the team? Just the offense?

The question now becomes - if Sunday's loss was because the defense allowed 36 points, who is responsible? The new DC Schwartz who was a god just 3 weeks ago? Is it Stefanski couldn't get consistent defensive play from Woods and now again with Schwartz? Where's the common denominator here?

The "Big Picture?" Just who is the HC for the Cleveland Browns and what is his responsibilities? If it's just OC duties, then give him the OC job and find a real HC!

The GM is responsible for final roster decisions not the head coach. They collaborate with each other and possibly Depo as well.

The key is they collaborate with each other, so Stefanski indeed is a decision maker as to my point.

Team rushing attempts for 2023 - Top 10


1. Ravens 390 carries for 1903 yards 4.9 ypc

2. Browns 390 carries for 1621 yards 4.2 ypc

3. Falcons 386 carries for 1622 yards 4.2 ypc

4. Bears 376 carries for 1652 yards 4.4 ypc

5. Eagles 367 carries for 1512 yards 4.1 ypc

6. 49ers 364 carries for 1642 yards 4.5 ypc

7. Lions 358 carries for 1648 yards 4.6 ypc

8. Cardinals 343 carries for 1611 yards 4.7 ypc

9. Cowboys 341 carries for 1404 yards 4.1 ypc

10. Saints 341 carries for 1261 yards 3.7 ypc

We’d be in the top spot if Chubb was still playing. But our run game took a serious drop off. I didn’t see where Hunt had lost a step before he returned, people pointing that out were spot on. I will say I think he gives us his all when he’s in. Ford still has that quick step, but he’s no Chubb or (prime) Hunt. What concerns me more is the fall off in both lines. Our backs should never get caught behind the line of scrimmage, let alone having it happen multiple times a game. The O-line is still opening holes about 70 percent of the time, but they are allowing more pressures and penetration than before.

Sorry but I think you're wrong!

1. When Baker got hurt in his shoulder Kevin should used his power as a head coach and let him heal until he was ok again. One week, the whole season, it doesn't matter. If a new HC shows maturity and prioritize his players health after a successful season he will gain even more respect among players/coaches/FO/owner and as a concequense it will create the right culture for the future. Mistake number one.

2. Stefanski and Berry wasn't honest with Baker when they wanted to move on. Mistake number two.

3. The final straw was the play calling away against the Steelers when an injured and freightened Baker was heavily hit multiple times by T J Watt & Co. After that game there was no way back Mistake number three.

Baker made his own bed but saying "Stefanski had nothing to do with this" isn't a correct description of what happened.

Look at the organizational chart and figure it out.

Who makes the trades? Who handles the draft? How many times has Berry and KS and Haslam made it clear where and who has what responsibility?

Go and listen to the press conferences of Berry, Haslam, and Stefanski.

In addition take a few classes on football so you can understand what you are watching.

If Team Berry&Stefanski hadn't burned all bridges with Baker before we negotiated with Team Watson then we could have walked from the negotiation table if the numbers got too high.

That mistake is what costing us now and later restrict our salary cap the next three seasons.

I think Baker's time here was done no matter what - the Pit game where he was 'protected' by a third team RT who was left one on one with the best (imo) pass rusher in the NFL sealed that in my opinion.

I'm not following all the debates about Watson and who/why Baker was replaced and how. I don't see the point. Of all the criticisms of Stefanski I have - the issue with Baker is gone and an isoltated incident even if it played out over a season. The play calling tendancies and the game management tendancies are more concerning to me because they have manifested themselves throughout the entire time KS has been calling plays and with whichever QB was playing. Just how I see it.

Why being impolite and throwing insults my friend? We're all supporting the same team.

You are out of your mind if you believe the HC has nothing to do with the roster. I wouldn't and shouldn't buy any kind of talk from the talking heads trying to state something different to sell to the public and protect the calibration of the group. The person who should be taking tutorial classes it's yourself. Any fan on this site that doesn't believe that if Stefanski was 100% behind Mayfield and told Berry and Haslam that he was his guy that he'd still be on the Browns they're living in a dreamworld. Of course, he would, and you know it.

Now there will be guidelines and an organizational plan that the HC may have to abide by but well over 100 players report to camp and Stefanski and the group as a whole make roster decisions from that group or the need to adjust the roster within that group.

Is there an ultimate decision maker? Sure, there is, but that decision is only made after input from the coaches, scouts, assistance coaches, team needs, future needs, contract availability, cap and so on. To think Stefanski has zero say is just BS and you know it. There's no HC in the NFL that would take that job without having anything to say about anything to do with the roster - that's just crazy talk.

My point was that we were in a bad position when we negotiated with Watson and that lead to us overpaying to get him to sign with us. The reason for that was how we had mishandled Baker by bad communication and dishonesty and therefore going back to him was a no go after our first failed attempt to trade to a new QB. The rest I totally agree with you.

Input and final decision are two different responsibilities.

This is clear as crystal. GM Berry makes roster decisions. Head coach KS makes decisions pertaining to what the roster does on the field.

Come on! Why sink to the same level?

I probably have 5% knowledge compared to you guys, should I stop posting or getting insults because of that? I’m here because I love talking to you and support my team even if I’m not in agreement with everything.

Sorry but the Watson deal was decided above his (Berry)pay grade. Just saying.

Different topic than the thread title - but I don't believe the Baker situation impacted DW negotiations one bit. The price (draft picks to Houston) for aquiring DW was one thing and set by (reportedly) 3 other teams being in the mix and willing to pay a similar price. The contract and DW accepting CLE had everything to do with DW not wanting to come to CLE. Whether that was because of the climate and or other factors is less of a certainty - but we do know he did not want to come here. Again - my perspective but I think it's reasonably well supported by things reported.

probably know better than me but my firm believes is that we panicked and therefore we signed a bad deal. There’s no way anyone can justify 230M under the circumstances with DSW at that time. Just sheer common sense tells you that.

I agree that we panicked and signed a bad deal. Not so sure we weren't there even before tha BAker situation took a turn for the worse. Seems as if there was already a bad situation between Baker and KS that existed for a while

You are right about the Watson deal IMO. The reason is because of all that was involved.

It was beyond the normal decision making process.

j/c:



Some of you are going to need this when/if Stefanski is extended.

I respect Quincy Carrier because he does his homework and is fair minded.

I do not always agree him. But, I always respect his takes. It is what I look for in real "football talk."

He is a young black guy and I give him credit for what he has done. For over thirty years I watched Browns game with one of my closest friends. We worked together. Back when you could not watch games in Atlanta. I ordered the Browns Illustrated publication. My sister worked at Cleveland Clinic. She would mail me a full week of the Plain Dealer sports section covering the Browns. Bruce and I would pour over the information. Bruce was a black guy from Cleveland Hts. I was in his wedding. We talked on the phone at least five days a week. We would call outside of Atlanta to hotels to see if the Browns games would be on in places like Rome Ga. When sports bars and Sat tv came along we went to places to watch the Browns. We studied the draft every year and discussed it till draft day. When Directv came out we watched every game together. He passed away unexpectedly five years ago. He was only 60. Ironically, Quincy Carrier reminds me so much of Bruce. His voice is damn near identical. His takes on the Browns covering all aspects is damn close to what I would have expected from Bruce.

This is an honest intelligent take on the coaching staff to date.

I see how you work it. When the D does well you give Schwartz all the credit. When they suck Stefanski gets all of the blame. How convenient for you.

a better way to view this data would be as a percentage of total snaps because it then accounts for some offenses taking more snaps than others.

Sorry to hear that your friend past away.

Off topic but anyway. I just got 60 years old a few months ago so I know how it feels when friends in my age group unexpectedly get sick and dies. Scary.

I try to do my best to hang around by quitting alcohol, reduce sugar and carbohydrate to a minimum, is on a inter mettent fasting program, 8/16 method. Same as Stephen A, Dana White and Steve Harvey.

I have just order a cold plunge and some sort of water bottle who is supposed to create magic on everything and nothing. A increase of fat burning with 60-70% according to the description. (In my age we beleive in everything that help the flag to get to the top) Walking and light weight lifting every morning. So far I have lost 10% of my weight and my goal is to go down to maximum 20% body fat and have the same weight as when I was 35 years old but with less muscels. Next step is to follow Dr David Sinclair and take these over priced pills and when I hit 70 it's time for prescript growth hormone.

Back to Kevin and I partly agree with Quincy except for his take on the play calling. Time will tell who's right or not.

While this is true - it still doesn't get to the heart of the matter which is situational play calling for periods of games. You'd hope that when we had the NFL's best RB tandem in Chubb and Hunt that we'd run a lot. When Hunt left, Chubb was still a top 3 RB in the NFL and you'd want to give him carries. With rookie QB's or QB's returning from extended time away you'd want to run a lot. When running the ball at a consistent high yards per carry (8+ in one game) you'd want to be running the ball 'a lot' ... not exclusively. But certainly make the other team stop what you were doing well .... that hasn't always been the case with KS calling plays. (imo)

There is so much you can do in a swimming pool.

You can make up your own workout. I have been swimming 2/3 times per week for 13 years. 35 minutes lap swimming doing different strokes. 20 minutes high stepping in shoulder deep water. 5 minutes doing groin and hip movements.

At 76 I weigh the same as I did when I was 35. 34" waist, 178 lbs., 5'11". Motion is lotion for your joints. Low impact for arthritis.

Quincy is a good dude. He has worked hard at what he does to get where he is now. He knows the game well. It is his job.

I know I can be harsh at times. Opinions are fine if they are knowledge based. I have a problem with some who have an opinion but do not have
the knowledge.

If you are critical of play calling and it is nothing but Monday morning quarterbacking. I have a problem with that.

If you understand play concepts, position assignments, and play options then your opinion has some basis.

If an offensive play is called it is based upon knowledge of the defense in a given situation. When the play is called and it is a pass play. There are options.

The Flacco int. is an example. For someone to say that was a poor play call and not understand the why's and options. That is nothing but air disturbance.

You have a strong business background. You are at least making an effort to learn. I applaud that.

Where do you get this stuff from? The only point I made was not unlike last year, Stefanski has no accountability for the defense according to posters on this site. Now that they have slipped in performance, the former "god" here, Schwartz, will get all the blame - just like Woods. Of course, if you watch the video posted, he clearly points out that Stefanski doesn't have the defense prepared to play on the road but since very few here believes that opinion of Stefanski being accountable, "we'll just skip right over it"

Yeah, what the video says means everything. lol Nobody is "skipping over it". We all know that Stefanski runs the O and Schwartz runs the D. And I certainly didn't see you giving Stefanski any credit when the D was playing great. But now.....

You make this so obvious....

I think the defensive struggles have more to do with the Browns missing our shutdown corner these last 2 games Denzil Ward and the injury that has seemed to slow down Myles Garrett. Yeah, that is Stefanski's fault. He did not have the team prepared. We have seen all season long what injuries can do to the offense and now the defense is being hit. Not a good combination. I wish Stefanski could fix injured players. The bottom line is this team has had not just injuries but to key core players. Chubb, Watson, Cooper, both tackles, Ward, Garrett, etc... Teams can overcome injuries but not to all of their key players.

Let me know when this happens. I'll wait.

Interesting

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/...-kevin-stefanski-nick-chubb-jack-conklin

Well those stats don't lie. What I think is that a few times when KS should have called a run but passed instead it was an egregious mistake. Case in point the Seattle game that led to a TO and the winning TD.

Until he gives up playcalling I don't see the browns ever going to the superbowl. The broncos game is what I point to. 29th ranked run defense and he comes out throwing most of the game with a 5th round rookie qb. Not the first time he has done this. It's a pattern. Whenever facing a weak run defense he tries to trick them by throwing all game. He only tricks himself

IMO Ford stinks. He has some speed but lacks vision and decisive explosion.

kareem is a short yardage back at this point. Both are below average backs.

Jones is very good at pass protection. He did a number on Watt. However, he is nowhere near the run blocker Conklin is. He is a rookie and is learning run blocking.

Matchups are a part of play calling as well injury and known defensive tendencies.

Obviously execution counts. Sometimes plays work and sometimes they do not. After the fact is not before the action.

This season will go down as ‘Ski did the best he could under these circumstances’ and he will still be HC and play caller next year. That being said, I too don’t think he will ever get us to the big game. I can’t put my finger on what’s wrong exactly, but he’s not the complete package at HC, something is off.

Nobody has more lives than Kev. I think I agree that something is off.

But I think he's done a good job this year. Where I'm at at this point is it could be worse, and I just don't know who you replace him with. The Browns have invested four years in a program and culture building that I'm not sure would be so easy to walk away from. I think there's some good foundation going on. But three big losses, Seattle, Denver, and LA...all had turning points caused by the O...his side of the ball...all on questionable play calls. I feel like he causes as many losses as wins. He's definitely had some signature wins this year. But we should have won in Seattle and taken one of the last two.

He's dealing with a pretty crappy injury situation this year but really underachieved the last two years. I think it's pretty important we make the playoffs this year even with the injuries if for no other reason than to signal to the league that what is being built here has some substance and sustenance to it. Three straight years with no playoffs in an AFC that is completely wide open this year and where you control your own destiny would just suck. You gotta achieve something at some point.

Saw a lot of head hanging this past Sunday. A lot of give up. This team has to dig deep and it has to start with Kev. I don't care if the team gets smoked in the first game of the playoffs. Just make it. That would be 2 out of 4 years officially pulling the Browns out of the crappy franchise category and into a team that has to be taken seriously. Collapse and miss the playoffs after starting 7-3 and it's same old Browns.

Case in point...

I haven't seen the last two games. Ford has done well in some games, I haven't seen him miss glaring holes (like say Trent Richardson). Reading comments it sounds like he has a lack of vision and maybe patience - but I will admit that I hate these still shots of plays to show how wide open WR's are or what a big hole a RB missed. a 2.5 second clip would tell us much more. Is it bad? Probably. Is it as cut and dry and horrific as that one image? Probably not if you see the play. It might be - but typically things change in the space of 0.5 seconds or the time it takes to look one way and then the other.

I agree. Back it up 2-3-4 feet and that "gaping" hole wouldn't look so gaping. Not to mention the defender closest to Ford has the inside leverage. As a back you don't cut to your blockers weak side, you run to his position of strength.

Ford has terrible vision. I have seen plays where he runs into his blockers and the hole is right off his shoulder.

In addition there are times when he is hesitating when he needs to hit the gas.

He has some tools. He has some speed and some power. However, a runner has to have natural instincts. He has to feel the play while in motion. Anticipate movements. Know when to accelerate and when to hesitate.

Basically Ford does not have "it." Can he develop? That I do not know.