DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are we tanking?

I posed this in the game thoughts thread.

We seem SO poorly coached and play calls seem SO bad right now. Or... are we playing for data?

I read a few things in the last couple weeks about how the OL was shifting around players during games and guys felt like they weren't allowed to gel in any one spot. And about how special teams is particularly (and unusually) loaded with young unproven players atm. And many of the play calls are true gadget head-scratchers. All the rooks are in. They're mostly playing well which justifies it, especially on a bad team but it's slightly unusual all the same. Tanking usually doesn't happen with the players, it happens with coaching and the choices the coaches make. And it can be subtle but there can be tells.

I don't mean to attribute 4D chess to what should just be credited to simple incompetence but they seem almost TOO keystone cops out there. As the season continues, the urge to tank only increases. Especially if they think Mendoza or Simpson or one of the other QB's is the guy and there'll be a land rush because several of the bad teams are unlikely to draft a QB and will be tempted to trade out. This is ONLY IF coaching believes they are safe. If they do have some back-end assurance, why wouldn't they just play out the string and treat the games like its preseason. Which... is kinda what it looks like?

I don't know of course but we've done it before to good end. We may still win a few games because the defense is good enough and like I said, the players aren't usually in on it. But it'll be interesting to see how we play the worst team in the league next week.

No. The team is just garbage. Believing the team is tanking is just a way for fans to cope with the situation.

Hell, the postgame locker room speeches and celebrations after a rare win should be enough to tell any reasonable person the coaches and players are not intentionally losing.

Just accept that this is a truly terrible team/organization.

I think that depends on what you mean by "tanking". If you mean purposefully playing to lose games I think the answer is no.

Now on the other hand it was certainly determined that there wasn't any strategy in place to win much this season. The OL is putrid and nothing was done to really address that. The same could be said for our WR's. While I suppose one could suggest that the signing of Flacco was at least some attempt to give the O a better chance it was quickly diagnosed that with this OL and WR's that wasn't going to work.

At that point I suppose a person could argue that the plan was to tank in some form. All one really needs to do is look at the success rate of 3rd and 5th round QB picks to see neither of these rookies had much of a statistical chance of being the answer at the QB position. Say what you will the numbers speak volumes in that regard. In the draft they did address the RB position and Fannin, while a third rounder has paid pretty good dividends considering the draft investment. But as I mentioned, rational thinking people didn't believe they were seriously addressing the QB position. They took a couple of shots at it but they knew what the odds were. Just finding a competent backup QB with so little invested would be a win.

Once they let Flacco go and made it known they were going to take a good look at the rookie QB's for the rest of the season the die was cast in regards of the team winning many games. Yes, there was a very long shot chance that one of the two QB's would make it, those odds were rather putrid.

So IMO if you're talking about trying to lose games on purpose my answer would be no. If on the other hand you're suggesting the table was set early not to win many games this year my answer would be yes. But I think that is part of the plan as well. If they plan to address the QB position in this upcoming draft you don't want to be drafting mid round or later.

IMO the finishing touches were put on the D. It was by far the easiest side of the ball to finish up on. A part of the O, RB and TE were addressed this season. That leaves the door open to heavily invest in the O this off season in both the draft and the FA market to greatly increase the talent pool on that side of the ball.

I don't think anyone looking at things big picture thought this would all be fixed in one off season after losing out on three first round draft picks and a second rounder over the past three seasons.

The front office may not be tanking , but going off the teams
Draft and off season player moves , they weren't trying to win either
Anytime you construct a QB room of back ups ...Flacco, Pickett
SANDERS and Gabriel , that's not trying to win right away .
The WR room wasn't upgraded . The oline was hardly addressed .
Haslam was more concerned about a new palace in Brookpark rather than
A winning product on the field

No, I don't think we're tanking as long as we have the same definition of tanking.

Along the lines of what others are saying... we don't have to try to lose a good chunk of games this year... we are just that bad.

I do think we came into this season knowing we would struggle mightily on D. We probably hoped we could get the running game back to what it was... but otherwise we are team that pushed all its chips to the middle (Watson trade and contract) and lost big. Now we are paying the piper for that gigantic swing and miss. Aside from a Tom Brady-esque draft pick, only time can help in digging ourselves out of this hole (we have first round picks again to help restock an aging roster and soon we'll be able to be major players in FA).

So yeah... I don't think we are trying to lose games but I also don't think we are surprised at how this season is going.

We had a good draft in "25. We have some good young core players even on O. We couldn't upgrade every group position in one year. We did try to upgrade WR with Bond who I feel will be a productive part of our future WR room. This offseason we will draft and use FA to improve the O-line and WR's. We all know the Watson trade killed us. We would be a better team with those picks and more cap space to sign players. I feel that if we have another good offseason of FA and drafting, we can contend for the division next year.

Rather than define tanking as trying to lose, I mean it more in the sense of not really doing everything you can to position yourself to win. Other priorities start to leapfrog winning. Such as seeing more of the bottom of the roster on the field, moving certain players in and out of other positions, trying some different looks. I agree that we don't have to try to lose, we're bad enough. But we also don't have to try very hard to win. Similar to preseason... if you win, great. But there's other priorities.

I'm not saying we absolutely are tanking. It's just something to watch. I know it's it's loser mentality but it's also practical reality to be half hoping for the L's at this point. The franchise QB is not on the roster. Period. As it is we're at 6, we're going to have to move up to get the candy next year. Unless...

I agree with you that "Changes are coming."

I totally disagree with you that guys are playing with little experience. Let's take a look at what the Browns have been doing: Guard, Teller (31) and Bitonio (36) have taken 756 and 785 snaps on offense this season thus far - Jenkins (28) has taken 78 snaps and Zinter (25) 0 snaps. No youth playing here with Bitonio surely to retire and Teller a FA - why isn't Jenkins and Zinter getting more playing time? Outlook - poor at this point.

Tackles: Robinson (31) 459 snaps (FA), Conklin (31) 383 snaps (FA), Leveston (26) 357 snaps (under contract in 26'), Lucas (34) 289 snaps (under contract in 26'), and Jones (25) 143 snaps (under contract in 26'). PFF has graded 80 positions at OT. Browns tackle grading is currently 63rd Conklin @ 57.4, 76th Leveston @ 47.9,
77th Robinson @ 46.2, 79th Lucas @ 42.9, 80th Jones @ 32.8. Not a single tackle in the top 78% of the rated NFL tackles in the league. Outlook of poor is an understatement.

Center: Pocic is a FA at seasons end. Pocic (31) has taken 781 of the snaps. Wypler (25) has taken 37 snaps. Pocic's PFF grade is 65.9 and ranks him 18th which is below more than 50% of centers graded. Again, where are these young guys playing when the Browns have such a critical area of need?

Bottomline, The Browns have taken approximately 800 snaps on offense. To date, the Browns have 5 OL players under 30. Leveston (26) has taken 44.6% of the snaps at OT. Jones (25) has taken 17.9% of the snaps at OT. Jenkins (28) has taken 9.7% of the snaps at OG. Zinter (25) has taken O% of the offensive snaps. Finally, Wypler (25) has taken 4.6% of the snaps at Center.

IMHO, the youth on the o-line is not playing. At this pace, the Browns will have little to no knowledge from game experience as to whether any of their under 30 players on the o-line are ready to take over those positions in 26'.

You focused on one unit of the team, the OL, and tried to use that one unit to show we aren't using young players. Try doing that with the QB's or the RB's. Good Lord man.

Who in this organization has any past experience or knowledge of how to build a successful organization?

define "sucecssful"

If it's playing in the playoffs... all of them

if it's playing in the Super Bowl...


Here is the very short list of coaches in the last 10 years who have been to the Super Bowl

Andy Reid (never leaving KC)
Dan Quinn (commanders coach)
Doug Pederson (was ran out of philly)
Gary Kubiak (Broncos HC)
Kyle Shanahan (Manziel ran he out of Cleveland)
Nick Sirianni (philly HC)
Pete Carroll (coaching the Raiders poorly)
Sean McVay (probably not leaving the Rams anytime soon)
Zac Taylor (Cincy)


Not coaching
Bill Belichick (out of football)
Bruce Arians (retired from coaching)
Ron Rivera (he sucked in Washington and was fired)

Manziel ran out of Cleveland?

Great post. (I love when others do the homework for me ) We all know the OL has been a crap show. Interesting that there hasn’t more of a concerted effort to go with youth on the OL as I had been led to believe. Would seem to go against the tanking narrative. Thanks for that.

lol wow. my bad... that was a complete thought in my head.

Because of the Manziel situation, Shanahan ran out of Cleveland.

Unfortunately, there is no one magic formula that always works. What worked one time might not work the next time. You have to try to work with what's available and constantly adapt to changing circumstances. Sometimes what's available isn't good enough. Sometimes athletes get hurt by the constant mashing each other. There's not some set in stone checklist one can follow to guarantee everything works out perfectly every time.

Not every team can have an MVP caliber QB. 32 of those guys don't all exist in their prime at the same time. Without one, it's an uphill battle.

You underestimate the importance of a steady leadership, a clear vision, accountability and a visual framework that everyone sees and understands.

Drafting and signings, injuries, fitness, form and so on are temporary problems. Having a structure and a clear vision is the fundamentals.

Yesterday’s loss was a consequence of lack of leadership.

When the game is on the line you play your best players.
When the game is on the line it’s about execution.

Stefanski once again tried to be the smartest guy in the room and as usual he tripped on his own ideas. That’s who he’s. Results don’t lie.

The play caller is the OC Tommy Ress. Did you forget? Just the way you wanted it when you said Stefanski was a terrible play caller.

If Sanders continues to improve we have our QB, keep Zappe as backup.

Then Jenkins and Zinter need to play out this season to determine where if needed to draft Guards.

If Jones is determined to be a starter at either OT then we need to draft only one OT.

If all this works out we would have unimagined draft possibilities open.

The head coach is responsible for the whole team, that’s includes the special team. If the ST didn’t execute good enough then the HC is part of that failure too.
It doesn’t matter who call the plays, especially late in the game when every decision can be a gams changer. The bucks stop with the head coach, that’s why they pay him $3m/season.

According to Stefanski the decision to run a wild cat was taken before they run down the field close to the end zone. Number 12 was super hot, two TD in the last couple of drives.
The momentum was starting to shift. The Browns were playing in their own stadium. All the chips were starting to flip in the Browns favor. At that time you simply don’t bench your best and most important players. That’s a no go in such situation. It doesn’t matter how much they have practiced that play if it wasn’t with the right players.

An experienced and confident head coach slow down the decision making in a situation like this and take control over his coaches and players.
A wild cat demands rhythm (flow) and decisiveness. In situations like this you go with those who’s experienced enough to cut outside noises and those who’re hot and in the zone. Benching Sanders made it is easy for the Titans to lineup. One rookie unsurprisingly hesitated and one tenth of a second the game was over.

Stefanski is a bad head coach.

The results back me up and what I see and read is just confirming my stance and there’s nothing so far in this season that have make me reevaluate that opinion.

So all of your complaints about the play calling have nothing to do with who is calling the plays? Got it.

From what I saw the last two weeks…. YES we are tanking on purpose.

I wouldn't mind picking up a vet QB to stash/reclaim. We could do round 2 with Pickett or pick up someone similar on the cheap as a side reclamation project.

If we can get a strong LT prospect in the draft, then I think we're good with sliding Jones back over to RT and trying again at adding some depth there. Settling the tackle spots like that would be like having a completely different (as in better) Oline.

It's not tanking when you just happen to suck THAT bad. I mean we have 3rd stringers starting on offensive line. It's a miracle we don't look even worse. The Browns are trying to win. They are just not good enough yet.

For all of those blaming everything on any certain person (be it Kevin, Tommy, our QB's or anybody else. Just how great did the Chiefs offense look this week. Be honest The Chiefs OT's are going down as fast as ours are this season. Patricks stat line last week???

14 of 33 for 160 yards. ZERO TD's THREE Int's, 2 sacks and a QBR of 19.8.


How many of you think this is the fault of The Chiefs Head Coach, Offensive cordinator, or on Mahomes himself.


Of do you think you can't win in the NFL if you if you can't protect your QB??? or run the ball.

Now see what you did. That is uncalled for! You injected actual common sense to the argument. That is not allowed in these parts!!!

I read these posts and hear on talk shows that KS doesn't like Shedeur and is purposely trying to make him fail. I think that is utter nonsense! If Shedeur has the potential to become our FQB why would he do that? KS doesn't want to win? He seems pretty happy when we do win. There are instances over the years where HC and their QB's didn't see eye to eye but they tolerated it because they were winning. Dan Reaves and Elway come to mind. BB and Brady also. I'm 100% behind Shedeur and hope he becomes a top QB for us. Let's give him a fair chance.

There is a lot to criticize Coach Stefanski for but not liking Sanders or purposely trying to make him fail is idiotic. The Browns traded up to draft him. They used a 6th and a 7th to get up into the 5th round to draft Sanders. They felt the value in Sanders was too good to pass up at that spot. They did not use that draft capital just to tank someone's career they did not like. How insane of a thought is that? They drafted Gabriel in the 3rd round and while I think that was a bd pick it was the pick they made in that spot and treated both players like a 3rd and 5th round selection. I think they viewed Gabriel as someone that can run and offense that has a great QB mind and could turn into something. I think his physical limitations being too small and too weak an arm prevented him from that. So, he got the reps and the 1st chance to prove himself. I think they viewed Sanders as someone that could be developed into a QB because he has enough size not ideal size, enough arm talent but still not ideal arm talent, enough athleticism but not elite athleticism. What he does have is the ability to throw accurately both in the pocket and on the move. In QB terms he was undisciplined and immature going into the draft and it really hurt his draft status. I think Stefanski has made him work and earn everything to this point for a reason. He had to grow up and learn to play the position disciplined on and off the field. Stefanski has worked as hard developing Sander's discipline as much as Sander's play. Sander's development may be the only thing left that can save Stefanski and Berry's job.

Who made the call to go for two after the second-to-last TD?

Who made the decision to even practice that ridiculous wildcat for short yardage situations? How many precious practice reps were/are wasted on that smarter-than-tho BS?

Did anyone nudge another and remind EVERYONE that 4/5 of the OLine were backups...and point out how ineffective our run-blocking is? Especially short yardage?

Its not just ONE thing with KS that highlights his incompetence. If it IS just one thing...all one has to do is look at the record.

P.S. I hope other Browns fans can get to the realization that counting on D Jones to be a long-term starter would simply show more organizational incompetence. He is a bad run-blocker...so that's not a fit for RT. He is wildly injury-prone...you can't count on a still-developmental guy to be your LT especially if he can't stay healthy. He's a backup swing tackle at best...no shame in that.

Everything you said there is 100% factual.

I'd add that KS brought it upon himself for conspiracy claims from fans after leaving James Hudson III one-on-one with TJ Watt in Mayfield's last - and injured - year. And also followed up by repeated parroting last pre-season that Watson gave us the best chance to win BS after revamping the offense. Or the drum-beating this year how much they believed in Pickett. I take KS' every word with a grain of salt...he routinely does not do as he says.

I don't believe for a second that he was somehow 'sabotaging' SS...I do believe that he regularly does what he 'thinks' is best (or wants to be the best) and that is proven wrong. Basically the definition of a poor head coach.

This is me hitting the hidden 'Like' button.

I've read enough on another site that consistently stated that SS was way too raw early in the season. That he was progressing very well during the season...that he was working diligently and overtime...and that he would get his due at some point.

Winning = Job security. What HC doesn't want to win not to mention you can hold your head up high among your peers. You put your negative personal feelings aside, if you have any, and go with the guys that make you a winner. That would be the mature attitude like it or not.

we had the best of both worlds last game - looked OK with the QB, competed and lost

I bet you're just a blast at parties.

What background is it you have in NFL coaching again?

Come on now ... what experience do any of the posters have of being an NFL coach? GM may be the closest thing? ... using that as a way to dismiss any opinion you don't like is really futile. In essense if we comply with that thought process no-one posts any opinion of 'football matters' because none are NFL coaches.

You could have said the same thing who were critical of any of our head coaches or GMs from Hue Jackson to Phil Savage ... it would not have made those opinions invalid.

I think Stefanski is a below average head coach. It's not based on this season with a banged up low talent offense ... it's based on multiple years of being the HC of the Browns, 2 of which were good. But throughout he's shown the same tendancies of getting pass happy, calling cute plays, poor discipline, good opening drives followed by zero adjustment and being out coached time and again by the opposing team - and week in week out through the years we look inept and poorly managed, the weekly "I must do better" - "we most do better!" - and yet there is zero accountability. I would have fired the ST coach 3 games ago. . . . but after the last 2 weeks, a potted plant could replace the ST coach and we'd be better off.

Just like when Hue got his chance after 2 disasterous seasons, it **appears** we'll see Berry and KS leading/coaching the team and the draft and free agency again next year. No-one's opinion on this board is going to influence the decision. Debate the opinion, don't slam the poster.

[quote=PitDAWG]I bet you're just a blast at parties.

Coming from you,that is hilarious.

I'm a blast at parties! I just don't discuss politics at parties.

And let's face it, at my age I don't go to many parties anymore.

I'm certainly not opposed to differing viewpoints. I think we both know that isn't the issue here. But at some point it becomes an obsession to the degree at which we hear it ad nauseam from the exact same people. That's usually the point at which I throw a little sarcasm in their direction.

I would certainly not try to defend Stefanski to the point of being some great NFL HC. But as much as people will say what they will, there have only been two seasons when the Browns have had decent and healthy QB's on their roster since he has been here. And one year it was Flacco after being pulled off of his couch. In both cases he made the very most of the talent he had. In the case of Flacco especially he took a mediocre journeyman and certainly got the most possible out of what was left of his skill set.

I felt Hue needed an opportunity to show what he could do with more talent on the roster. He was given that opportunity and failed miserably at it. That meant it was time for him to go. In both seasons where Stefanksi had any semblance of talent at the QB position that has not been shown to be the case. There really is no comparison there.

Pass happy is a somewhat vague term used as a generalization. The objective each week is to break down your opponent and try to exploit their weaknesses. Each week you also must look at your own injuries in determining which is the best method to about attacking your opponents. Two factors people often ignore for the most part and totally fail to mention is the scoreboard and time clock when using the generalization "pass happy". We both know if the game is getting away from you and the time clock is ticking down there comes a point when throwing the ball becomes pretty much the only option you have left. That information doesn't show up on a stat sheet.

Every team has gadget plays. When they work people praise a HC's innovative approach and imagination. When they fail we see the kind of comments you just made about them. It actually has nothing to do with the plays at all. It has to do with whether the players execute those plays well or not.

When it comes to accountability I agree with you. At the same time I don't see unrealistic expectations as being the same thing.

You see it wasn't Stefanski who signed the watson deal. Sure he may have had some input into the decision but there are two layers above him that are the deciding factor and who make that final call. That cost the Browns big time. It put a stranglehold on having the ability to sign upper level FA's. It cost three first round draft picks and then some. As such I often see what we call accountability being placed in the wrong direction. Stefanksi isn't the reason this roster is so bereft of talent. With the OL and WR situation he is dealing with I think people believing he could get much more out of this O are far more guilty of unrealistic expectations than anything people can point to that Stefanski has done this season.

As I stated I don't think Stefanski is a great NFL HC. That's not my argument here. My argument is that it seems to me he gets a lot of blame for some things that are well beyond his control.

Exactly. Common sense has to rule out in this situation. We just had a great draft. It would be really dumb IMO to change our HC and GM. A move like that would set us back even further. Let Berry have another draft and FA signings. Give Sheduer time to develop and see where we stand after that. If we make the right moves this offseason we can contend for the division next year.

Besides CoachB?

no one.

I think Bond is someone who could round out into a legit NFL starter, and Corley has some interesting skills that should keep him on the roster.

I can understand arguments for and against Jeudy being part of any long-terms plans whatsoever.

I think Bond is someone who could round out into a legit NFL superstar.

He's an athletic freak with elite speed who, with a little work and determination, could be an elite route-runner as well.

You must remember the skill set for Browns receivers is route running and YAC.

The two rookie QBs have struggled with the timing needed in this offense. Sanders has improved these last two games.

To say the receivers are garbage is misleading; the quarterbacks need better timing on their intermediate throws. How many times have we seen passes thrown late, high, and low? Yes, receivers must catch the ball, but to take advantage of their skill set, the quarterback must lead the receiver open with anticipation throws. This comes with a better understanding of defensive pass coverage.

The Browns do not have the elite receivers, but they have enough good receivers. The quarterbacks must get better.

In actuality, if Sanders improves his timing, this whole offense improves. The Bears will be a good test this Sunday.

I kinda feel the same way. Great speed and if he can keep his nose clean and put a full offseason/TC in, he might turn out to be a legit WR in the NFL.

What is the Browns biggest need?

Who do you think the Browns next HC should be?

OL. Truth is it’s very hard to get a read on anything else as long as the OL is comically bad. Lots of needs but that is truly the biggest stop-the-bleeding issue.

Watching the game, they posted a stat midway through the game.

Beart's pressure rate
On the season: 29%
Today 60%

How many organizations would keep a head coach with 25 losses in less than 2 seasons? He’s on track of losing 3 more, 28 in total.

Think about it. With Stefanski at the wheel the Browns statistically are on track of losing almost 80% of all games in 2 consecutive seasons. If I’m honest that’s an amazing accomplishment. Almost unrealistic. Even if a blind monkey was calling the play I think the Browns would get a few more wins. I mean what could be worse than what we see atm?

That’s the level that some are trying to defend.

‘We have to do better”

This year is proof that sacks is the most over rated stat in football.
The media glorifes it and over blows " sacks "
Show me how many past SB teams also had the leagues sack leader
Very very rare .
Myles is having a great year sacks wise . But sacks don't equate
To wins .

I don't know but how many coaches could deal with having so little talent on the team. There is not a single 1st round pick on the Browns offense. I don't know how you would expect to see anything else.

Six seasons. What’s the excuse 2026?

Floquinho the excuse for 2026 is that it will take time for the new o-line to build cohesion. I would expect a rough start to the season and then for it to get MUCH better. I am assuming of course that they actually draft a stud at WR and LT and a RT depending on what we pick up in FA. IF I were the GM I would trade back to pick up another first in 2027 if there is a trade partner willing. At the least maybe accept a 2nd round pick to move back a spot or two so we can draft more offensive linemen in the second round because the second round is a great place to get good offensive guards and centers. I would use first round picks for key positions and try to stockpile 2nd round picks galore to build up some actual depth to our roster.

I am assuming of course we don't draft a QB in the first 4 rounds. IF we draft a QB in those rounds it's going to be another wasted year because big holes will be left on this team.

That’s a good strategy and I’m with you on most of it but the dysfunctional leadership is still there. New players doesn’t erase bad decision making.
You must ask yourself a couple of crucial questions.

Have the team and especially our quarterbacks developed or regressed under Stefanski’s leadership?
Have our results got better or worse with time?

Common sense says that you can only lose so much before you’re what the results tells us.
Today’s Cleveland Browns is a product of Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski’s leadership.

Results have to matter.....BUT, a coach who peers/league votes Coach of the Year TWICE doesn't become a bad coach overnight. The Big Swing and MISS with Watson has to be owned by owner and GM. We lost the good years of line play thru terrible QB play and injuries. Please don't say all teams lose due to injuries- we lost BOTH tackles, center, and guards are past their prime. Going into the Chicago game with patched line, rookie QB, and poor receivers- what was expected. BUBBA/special teams needs firing, but I'm not sold on SKI.

It’s not your fault but all these various excuses like Coach of the Year and Big swing means nothing. Losers find excuses. Winners search for solutions.
(it has gone from swing to BIG swing - so that’s a development - soon it’s the biggest SWING ever - have to be best at something….)

Good leaders overcome obstacles and temporary challenges. That’s why they’re good leaders. Teams with lack of confidence search for the “final solution “ when more stable organizations mostly tries to lift the floor. From good to excellent , from excellent to great. Their goal is constant evolution.


The Cleveland Browns, the local media and a part of their fan base have developed a mentality where being bad is acceptable. That has to change.
The new leadership biggest challenge must be to create a new healthier environment and a more result based mentality.

This leadership don’t have those attributes and that’s why they need to go.

If aren't tanking at this point, we should be.

Stefanski isn't calling the plays. You were whining about it then too.

And neither did having the best LT in a generation with Joe Thomas. So I guess that means we shouldn't have any players who are great at their respective positions. Yeah, that's it.

I'll ask the questions again... did it look like a tank job?

I didn't see the game but there's usually little tells when it comes to tanking. It's not usually the players, some of whom might be playing lights out. It's usually play calling, defensive calls and rotation decisions and just general bumbling on the part of coaching. Certain guys getting limited rotation or rotated in to odd roles or at odd times. Going in and out of man/ zone at unfortunate times, that sort of thing. It almost never gets mentioned during the broadcast and you don't notice because the camera is showing you players running hard, throwing hard, diving for catches, fighting thru blocks etc.

I know they're going to give Miles every opportunity to get the sack title but isn't it a tad odd that the defense is SO porous all of a sudden? It's not like we have an unusual number of additional injuries that I'm aware of. Everything I'm reading today is about how halfhearted and under prepared the team looked. That might be exactly how you'd describe a team that's tanking. In which case, they're doing a GREAT job. I think it can be pretty hard to see for most passive fans. But like I said, there are tells. Nothing provable in a court of law of course, just... bad decision making.

Reality is this: The Giants and Raiders play in 2 weeks. One of them has to win (if they tie is that proof they're both also tanking? ) which will push us to #3 in the draft order assuming no one else in the top 4 wins another one. Though the Raiders also have one at home against the HATED, now Mahomes-less and eliminated Chiefs. The Raiders will have only beaten the Chiefs twice out out 12 attempts since 2020 and not since 2022. The losses have typically been very humiliating. I don't know if they'll be able to resist. And the Titans still have the Saints. The Titans didn't play badly yesterday and they seem to be trending up, though the same could said of the saints who won yesterday.

There's a scenario where we all end up 3-14 and because we have the weakest strength of schedule compared to the rest, we end up with the #1. There's a better chance end up at #2. But we need to lose and the Bengals game at seasons end looms. We usually split the season with the Bengals and they're in free fall. So we'll need to do our best keystone cops routine.

Normally I say win no matter what, but my tune has changed for now. I think Sanders will always be a C+ QB. Just good enough to win you 7-10 games and get you blown out in the wildcard or division game. There's a lot of C+ QB's that come and go in this league. They give you a few A games a year, a handful of D's and it's 3 or 4 years before the team comes to grips with their ceiling. Get Mendoza. 6'5", 225, cold weather, big 10 bonified winner, seemingly super level guy with a chip on his shoulder and no drama. The cards go our way and we don't even need to trade up. But we gotta lose.

LAST WEEK:




AFTER SUNDAY:





New Orleans won, so that monkey is off our back (if we lose-out). They would have held the tie-breaker with a weaker SoS.

12/28 games will paint the picture with broad strokes: NO @ TEN and NYG @ LV
We'll be rooting for the Titans to beat New Orleans and take themselves out of the two-win category. The Giants at Raiders means one of them will be out of the two-win category. Let's hope the Raiders win, and fall behind us, since they are in desperate need of some Quarterbacking.

Then... if the above has played out... we just need the Giants to either beat the Vikings (this week) or their rivals, the Cowboys, the final week of the season.


If all that happens and we lose-out... WE'RE NUMBER ONE! I've calculated the SoS under this scenario and we would hold the tiebreaker.

Sing it with me: WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

Isn't this fun!?!




https://www.tankathon.com/nfl

https://www.tankathon.com/nfl/remaining_schedule_strength
https://www.tankathon.com/nfl/power_rankings

Actually we want the Giants to win against Vegas and Vagas to beat the now Mahomesless and likely Kelseyless Chiefs at home in the last game. I think both of those are 50/50. Then We just have to pray Ten wins against NO. I think statistically we're likely to draft 3. With luck, 2. With a everything breaking our way, 1. IF, and only if we lose out.

As is often the case I think at this point it's about the most fun we're going to have.

As they say: six of one, half dozen of the other.

I'd say you're spot on in the "likelihood" department.

"If and only if" is a big concern for me. As I said in another thread, I suspect the Bengals game will be two teams trying to out-tank each other, them mostly out of spite.

Can’t be clearer than this.

Supporters, and probably some in the leadership, speculate in the best way to lose and how other results can go their way so they’re absolutely sure to come last. That’s when you know when losing has become a natural part of their identity.

(I don’t blame anyone, I’m probably a part of all this too, this losing mentality…… it’s just so sad to see)


Better players can do much but it’s hard to change a culture who’s rotten all the way in to the core.

Let's refresh your memory!

In the 13 years Haslam owned the Browns, the GMs he hired:

1. Tom Heckert;
2. Michael Lombardi;
3. Ray Farmer;
4. Sashi Brown;
5. John Dorsey;
6. Andrew Berry.

Listed are the Head Coaches hired:

1. Rob Chudzinski;
2. Mike Pettine;
3. Hue Jackson;
4. Freddie Kitchens;
5. Kevin Stefanski.

With the help of Paul DePodesta, he finally took his advice and hired Kevin Stefanski. DePodesta is no longer with the Browns. If he fires both Berry and Stefanski, Jimmy will be the primary interviewer for the next hire.

Oh I get it, and I’d agree. It’s truly sad to be losing to win. Losers mentality thru and thru. But truth is, the best team we’ve had since the return came as a result tanking and hoarding high picks. I’ll never not think strategically and there’s one reality to face and one strategy to play right now. Reality: we don’t have the QB. Strategy: get the QB.

Our biggest need? I think all 5 OL need replaced. I think all of the WRs need replaced as well.

Haslam didn't hire Heckert.

Here is one of the best advices you will ever get!
It’s for you, me, the Browns and Mr Jimmy Haslam.

Don’t Go For Second Best!
Change until you get it right.

With more losses than wins the answer is self explanatory.
When drama, conflict and bad decision making is the norm then you also know.
When losses in the end of the season is more important than winning then you definitely know.

You can make a case for Andrew Berry.
His last draft was promising but at the same time the way he has handled the offense it’s unforgivable. To put it mildly.

When it comes to the smartest guy in the room there’s no excuses. One of the worst head coaches in the NFL.
Results tells the story. The eye test backs it up. Uninspiring. Charmless. Useless when it comes to verbal public communication.

What’s there to actually like?

The Cleveland Browns has to make changes until they get it right.
There’s no other alternative if you want significant changes.

Agreed, doing the same thing year after year and expecting different results is insane. There's no team culture, 6-year losing record (43-55), uninspired coaching, and has ruined the careers of two of the best players ever at their positions in the NFL (Thomas and Garrett). Over 30 years of Browns leadership and still can't put together a consistent winning team. To think, there's a team down the road that is about to put together their 20th consecutive season with a winning record. Yea, people bitch about their playoff record saying "Ha". Damn, it sure would be nice to be called a contender for 20 straight years with a winning record. People here keep screaming Super Bowl, how about establishing a yearly winning record first that will put yourself in that position for the run to the Super Bowl - have to learn to win first baby!

Hey, but all you supporters out there, cross your fingers and stay the course. WTH, maybe the Browns can win 4-6 games next year.

At this point steady progress wouldn't stop all the whining anyway.

So, let's just keep going down that trail to the "continued factory of sadness."

English is hard. I said "steady improvement" wouldn't stop all the whining. Double check that before you reply this time.

English is hard. Here's what you said: "At this point steady progress wouldn't stop all the whining anyway."

Might mean the same thing, but as usual, you changed what you said.

The unneeded hero always shows up in the end to save Dawtalkers from evil.

Yes arch, it means the exact same thing.