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I don't know...lol. For the purposes of this argument, I went by college coaches who've then proceeded to the NFL, and not vice versa. I mean by that argument you stated we'd have to put Bill Calahan as a success to. I just don't think those 2 apply.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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I think the whole college coaches can't make it in the NFL thing might be a media/fan creation, based on the recent failures we've seen............
Because I think if you look at the situations they were hired in..they were mostly on losing teams..which doesn't bode well.
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Quote:
Because I think if you look at the situations they were hired in..they were mostly on losing teams..which doesn't bode well.
True that....but any time a team hires a new coach, it's usually because the team is in trouble...Not after they made it to the playoffs the season before....usually that is......
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Roscoe5319/Marty2.jpg) "Winning is not a some time thing, it's an all the time thing" ....-Lombardi-
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Quote:
I think the whole college coaches can't make it in the NFL thing might be a media/fan creation, based on the recent failures we've seen............
Because I think if you look at the situations they were hired in..they were mostly on losing teams..which doesn't bode well.
Agreed, Many of them are successful because they recruit the players they want to fit thier system, in the NFL, your stuck many times bringing in your system you believe in but dont have the players to fit it, and many times the coachs dont get a chance to pick drafted players, they normally have to work with a GM who picks them, thus leaving you with a stsyem and the wrong players in it. Sometimes it works many times it dosent, Regardless I'm in favore of not trying it again.
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I think it's becoming clear what Lerner wants to do. He wants to get a top head coach and let him pick his own personnel guy so there won't be the disconnect like there was between Crennel and Savage with picking the team in free agency and the draft. I heard he also would like Mangini b/c lots of coaches who win on other teams get run out of town and win elsewhere like Dungy, Shanahan, Belichick, etc. Sounds like a good plan to me. Getting a guy like Mangini or Shanahan or Spagnuolo would bea good move, and then letting them bring some of their own people in to pick the roster so we'd have harmony within the organization would be wise.
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Agreed, but some of the success came into losing situations as well (JJ, Coughlin, Vermeal, etc.).
I just think that 3 out of the past 4 have been really bad, and it's created a perception that college coaches can't make it in the NFL. Sorry, but the evidence doesn't support that when you look at the numbers over the long term, or even intermediate term (20 years). I honestly think DnD is on to something when he talks about full control for a coach.........it's been a death sentence to the college coaches.
I hate to admit I was wrong, but when the facts stare you in the face it's hard to dispute. College coaches have just as much success in the NFL as any other coach hire statistically I would imagine.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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"Go ahead and buy into the "handfull of College coaches" who have actually had success over DECADES! Not in the past decade, but the past FIVE DECADES!"
I know silly me...The two most successful dynasties over the last 30 years were put together by coaches who came from College HC jobs.
But we should put all considerations aside in some stereo type of College coaches.
I don't see the rule. I'm trying to think who recently came up that way??? Kiffen? who knows what kind of coach he would have become? But then again he wasn't even a college HC 
I'm thinking of Butch and Spurrier...so all have to be duds??? Both were given full control and I think that factor spelled their failure more than anything. Butch with a strong GM actually might have been pretty good if you ask me.
Spurrier - forget about it...his ego is just too big.
but actually what coaches have failed....fact is most HC's come to the NFL via being an assistant rather than from the college ranks.
Its not like there is a ton of data of failures.
But there were 3 dynasties in the more modern Era...49ers, Dallas and Pats.
I find it quite HUMOROUS  that 2 of the 3 happen to have been hires from the college HC ranks. So be careful what you choose to laugh at. Using the icon and glomming it to my opinion don't make it foolish.
Actually out of that exchange one of us came out of it looking a bit foolish and it wasn't me
"I kind of expect that from someone who can basicly write a 500 word essay on the positives of a game"
And just what makes you feel superior by insulting me on a matter that has nothing to do with this subject...Does that make you feel better insulting my weekly Game Day thread What I Saw??? It bothers you so much that I do so and if you didn't have a reading disability I don't just do positives I do what I saw...I don't pursuade anyone else from putting in a negative. I am pretty consistent in what I ask. GO ahead Positives or Negatives...but share the insight with something that actually happened rather than a generalization...describe it in detail as YOU SAW IT.
Why the Insult to prove your point - and what exactly is your point??? That you know more than me...your opinion is better than mine yeah real impressive.
"Don't get upset eo, but you do try to find the silver lining in every storm cloud."
Like wise...don't get upset cause you don't know jack about the subject matter at hand?  What a dumb statement...you insult me. You take offense that I do a weekly thread and people enjoy participating in it. And then you say - don't get upset.
Where am I projecting a silver lining.
Where am I being overly unreasonable...debate me with the subject but no you wish to prove you are correct and My thinking process is wrong by insulting me with no substance at all. I can understand how you would be afraid to debate me in actual football terms cause you would lose out. But just for fun give it a try 
You might just learn something instead of insulting maybe you can actually become football educated and have meaningful discussions.!
OOOOoooo its not a storm cloud its a full blown Hurricane...ooooooo watch out its Armegeddon....
Its nothing compared to what we went through at the end of 2004! Nothing. And yet we survived and moved forward.
Championship team??? No we didn't get there....but we are going to start on a much more enviable position than before...how soon people forget the state of the Browns at the end of 04? Nothing close to the same. We have a team here that somebody can come in and tweak to their own and make them a winner.
Hmmm...lets see who has known and made a connection with Ferentz....Randy? Has he even spoke to the guy? Interviewed him?
From that era of young Football minds grew 3 very talented people. Ozzie, Pioli and Savage...you don't find it remotely odd that all three came away with the RESPECT they have of Ferentz...I mean ok one of them might be wrong. But ALL THREE???
Oh wait....Ozzie, Pioli, Savage - --- - or Pitdawg.
oh geeesh what am I thinking about - it must be Pitdawg who knows better???
Come on Pit- don't be foolish.
Because you cannot debate me don't come with that garbage about how REALISTIC you are and so is your opinion. While me I wish to see some positives that you LOSERS do not...and yeah every loser I ever met had that attitude - WE'RE DOOMED!!! Every one a LOSER. And you want me to follow that MANTRA. And you got to put down any positive thought of the situation?
The more I read and learn about Ferentz - the more I like about him.
I also think OL coaches in the NFL have a leg up on other asst. coaching jobs. Cause its like running a mini TEAM. Nobody tells you what to do...you take the scheme and the MINI-TEAM is the OL...they traing to YOUR PROGRAM, Conditioning, Technique, Practice, All separate from the team. Ferentz...Browns OL coach - young and considered very bright in the industry!
Yeah I know Pitdawg thinks he will be bad --- so bad that if Pioli dares to think otherwise...he is Dog meat?
I hope Pioli is our GM...I hope McDaniels or Ferentz is our next HC if that is who Pioli wants.
JMHO - if it doesn't work out that way (the way I want) guess what? We are not doomed - I actually have an open mind and there are other possibles. Reese with Spagnola or Mangini??? Who knows But doomed we are not. We are moving onto the next stage and the future is bright. Not cause I'm a die hard Browns fan and Unrealistically think so. I feel its bright for several reasons.
Quinn, BE, KW2, DA, Joe Thomas, ES, Dawson, Zad, JJ, Rogers, Corey, Robaire, DQ, EW, McD, Pool
along with many starters in place that are here but can be upgraded. Shaffer, Fraley, Shaun Smith, Harrison, Lewis, Wimbley, Stallworth.
No other regime coming in had this much talent to work with from the beginning. Turnover....sure there might be turnover. But lets say we don't like Rogers like the past regime didn't like Warren. Warren got us a 4th round pick...Rogers will get us a 1st rounder worst case if we wanted to get rid of him a 2nd rounder. Big big difference to help build the new team... Of course we are keeping Rogers 
But attack me with Football not this personal garbage....and then say DON'T GET UPSET...how silly is that!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The thing is you want a experienced GM in place who knows what the team needs..and then hammer it out with the new coach..we suffered from a inexperienced GM trying to make decisions for a inexperienced HC..both were over their heads..
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Can't we all just get along.......  ......LOL
"Winning is not a some time thing, it's an all the time thing" ....-Lombardi-
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"I may be in the minority here, but really I could care less if a coach or players for that matter have ties to Cleveland. This shouldn't even be a factor. We are a totally different organization then we were when most of these "Cleveland ties" came about."
sorry for laughing I just thought that statement was very funny coming from a guy with a OSU banner and Pimping Wells 
A must??? No, but not a bad thing. Look this team needs an Identity...Savage started to hit on it and then maybe got side tracked. But making the Browns into a Cleveland...Ohio football type of Identity is not that bad. Mainly cause so many freakin good football players have come from that hotbed!!!
JJ, Z and even Bentley, also others expressed some desire to come here. In Savage's first two years he spent a lot of extra scouting in the area. That is how we got guys like Cribbs, Sanders, then he sort of went away from it.
But also buying into the system is infectious. And if your coaching staff permeates a distinct LOVE for the TEAM. A bleed Brown n Orange attitude it rubs off. And if there is a good nucleus of players with the same attitude all the better. And if you draft kids coming from college who had that frame of mind which most do about their college and now can fill that void or create room in their hearts for a team as they did from HS to College...now NFL its good.
So ties with Cleveland is important but what it might be important for. Is a special person lets say Pioli who has refused to consider leaving the Pats for any other team but MAYBE THE BROWNs....how many come to us for interviews but only for leverage cause their first choice is Else where. Well these are talented Young Football Minds that WANT TO COME HERE as their dream job!
Its good not because that makes them smarter. Its good cause they might be the SMARTEST!!! and we would normally have no shot at bringing them here with other NFL teams wanting them...But we CAN
I know I'm just being UNREALISTIC and not dooming enough of the situation. We are the Scum of the earth and any one with ties to us must also be scum...that's directed to those who say my opinion don't count cause I'm too positive 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Agreed. I think I am more afraid of Lerner giving Mangini full power than I am of Pioli hiring Farentz at this point. I just don't think it's wise to give a HC full power, and not have a GM type calling the plays.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Why do you think RL would give Macaroni full cooking utensils?
I don't ...I think he wants both Pioli/Mangini ...
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McCreight isn't going to get, no more than Tucker would actually be considered for the HC job.
If Pioli/McKay balk..then watch for Floyd Reese..
yeah, I know,, but I remembered it after I wrote the other post answering someone elses question.....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I feel like I have a handle on Most of the HC's that are being talked about .. But not really a lot on McDaniels , the OC from New England .. Help a Dawg out ! .. You and I lock horns from time to time but I could use our Opinion on this guy ??? Like most , I don't want to see a problem between GM and a HC. this time around ..
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Quote:
Quote:
McCreight isn't going to get, no more than Tucker would actually be considered for the HC job.
If Pioli/McKay balk..then watch for Floyd Reese..
yeah, I know,, but I remembered it after I wrote the other post answering someone elses question.....
Actually .... there would be no good reason to interview McCreight if he wasn't a serious candidate for GM. I am starting to think that he might be the guy, paired with Mangini. Mangini would be consulted as far as his preferred personnel guy ... and could bring in his preferred assistant coaches. (which would probably include some Jets assistants)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm starting to get a little worried.
I don't think Pioli is going to take the job and McKay has already said he's staying in Atlanta.
So like you said watch for Floyd Reese. I don't know how I feel about that. Basically we are bringing in the the 3rd guy on our radar and I don't even know if he's even on our radar. I haven't heard anything.
I'm starting to get the feeling that nobody even wants this job. I'm starting to get a bad feeling about this whole situation.
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Don't forget about Parcells.........
"Winning is not a some time thing, it's an all the time thing" ....-Lombardi-
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When did McKay say he's staying?
U have link?
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It may just turn out like that Ytown...One thing to think about is McCreight prefers Jim Schwartz from the Titans.....
nordawg
Last edited by nordawg; 01/02/09 03:30 PM.
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
#gmstrong
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Lemme see if I can find it, I read it somewhere.
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http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/01/01/rich-mckay-isnt-interested-in-browns-gm-job-this-is-good-new/Good News, Scott Pioli: Rich McKay Isn't Interested in Browns' GM Job Posted Jan 1st 2009 7:15PM by Ryan Wilson (author feed) Filed under: Browns, Falcons, AFC North, NFC South, NFL Fans, NFL Coaching, NFL Rumors Last offseason, Falcons owner Arthur Blank stripped Rich McKay of his general manager duties, although he retained the title of team president. Thomas Dimitroff took over as GM, had a lot to do with bringing Matt Ryan to Atlanta, and some eight months later, the Falcons are headed to the postseason. Along with the Dolphins and Lions, it's easily one of the most amazing stories of 2008. Despite McKay having no say in personnel matters this season, he was Atlanta's general manager from 2003-2007, and earned a Super Bowl ring during his nine-year stint with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in that same role. And now, the newly GM-less Browns are interested in talking to McKay. According to FOXSports.com's Jay Glazer, however, McKay is quite content with his current set-up. ... [D]espite reports that the Cleveland Browns will interview ... McKay, FOXSports.com has learned that McKay has rebuffed Cleveland's overture. McKay is slated to fly to Phoenix with the Falcons and not New York to meet with Browns owner Randy Lerner. There were talks between the two sides, but McKay informed them he is happy where he is and did not want to interview for the job or consider it until after the rest of the candidates had run their course in Cleveland.
After surviving (figuratively, not in the dog-fighting sense) the Michael Vick melodrama, I'm guessing McKay wants to enjoy Atlanta's resurgence. Whatever the reason, this is good news for Patriots vice president Scott Pioli. This morning, the Boston Herald reported that Browns owner Randy Lerner had given Pioli till the end of the day to accept the GM job. Depending on who you believe, that might not be true. Via the Cleveland Plain Dealer's Mary Kay Cabot, Pioli doesn't have a deadline, and that "no timeframe was placed on the decision." Which means that Pioli, who allegedly made "impossible" demands when meeting with Lerner about the Browns gig, now has even more leverage. Assuming, for the moment, that any of this is true, Lerner has to decide if Pioli is worth it. The guy has three Super Bowl rings (I know, so does Romeo Crennel, but unlike Crennel, Pioli had a hand in building those championship teams), and if he can do for the Browns what Dimitroff and Mike Smith did for the Falcons, well, I say give him whatever he's asking for. Of course, it's not my money; I suspect Lerner might feel differently.
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I think you'll find that was a misquote..
The Browns were scheduled to interview Falcons President Rich McKay on Thursday, but the interview was postponed because McKay wanted to focus on Atlanta's playoff game Saturday in Phoenix against the Cardinals, a source said. Foxsports.com's Jay Glazer also reported Thursday that McKay and the Browns talked but "McKay informed them he is happy where he is and did not want to interview for the job or consider it until after the rest of the candidates had run their course in Cleveland."
See..it's contradictory..if you're not interested then you're not, regardless of who else comes in for a interview.
The writers don't know..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/02/09 03:36 PM.
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Quote:
Don't forget about Parcells.........
I would love to get Parcells in here either as a coach or GM, there is a clause in his contract with Miami that if the team is sold he can get out of his contract, and it looks like Miami will be changing owners...Parcells would be amazing
![[Linked Image from i161.photobucket.com]](http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t215/nick_ogrin/ogdawg.jpg) Thanks NaTaS "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope."
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Thats not the article I read but i'm sure it somehow derived from that statement. Who knows.
I just read that he turned us down and was happy where he is.
On a side note I guess the OBR is reporting that the interview with Spags went extremely well.
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Few other coaches who couldn't quite make the jump from college to the NFL and not be successful:
June Jones
Jack Pardee
Mike Nolan
Dennis Erickson
Dan Henning
Pete Carroll
and I am sure others throughout the years.
The way I see it personally and feel is that college coaches struggle with the rich millionaire players whose ego's take over. Most college coaches make good money get to keep building yearly and many gain from this in many ways and they can enjoy coaching where the NFL is a totally different beast since it is a 365 day a year job. Overall your better off with someone who has experiance in the NFL and ex HC who only had one shot are viable options since they do work, a couple off the top of my head that 2nd stint guys worked: Dungy, Gruden, and I am sure others, but no matter the route their is always a gamble, and when I gamble I like to better my odds if possible and I feel the odds are better for someone with NFL head coaching experiance then a guy coming from college and I think the more failures lately are due to them wanting and gettting more then they can handdle in terms of responiblilty and can't control the NFL player's ego unlike he can a college kid, so I would rather go the route of someone who already understand the NFL then a guy that is gonna have a longer learning curve.
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Quote:
"I may be in the minority here, but really I could care less if a coach or players for that matter have ties to Cleveland. This shouldn't even be a factor. We are a totally different organization then we were when most of these "Cleveland ties" came about."
sorry for laughing I just thought that statement was very funny coming from a guy with a OSU banner and Pimping Wells
A must??? No, but not a bad thing. Look this team needs an Identity...Savage started to hit on it and then maybe got side tracked. But making the Browns into a Cleveland...Ohio football type of Identity is not that bad. Mainly cause so many freakin good football players have come from that hotbed!!!
JJ, Z and even Bentley, also others expressed some desire to come here. In Savage's first two years he spent a lot of extra scouting in the area. That is how we got guys like Cribbs, Sanders, then he sort of went away from it.
I see what you are saying but, I would say Florida is probably the hottest bed for talent. It is nice to have guys that know the tradition and were fans growing up but, when it comes down to it I want the players and coaches that are the best and if that means passing up a "native die-hard" for someone that is better than so be it.
Not taking anything away from the local guys we have because they are good and I like them. Funny you mention my sig because I am a huge OSU fan but I wouldn't want any of the coaches there to come to Cleveland over someone more qualified. (like i think a Shanahan is) I like Wells and would love to have him but I know we have more glaring problems. It was just me playing around with a photo program.
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Erickson was on my list, and June Jones and Pete Carrol went to College from the NFL, and were both OCs when they were hired for NFL gigs so I didn't include them. I would disagree about Jack Pardee, because I actually thought he was pretty successfull with the Oilers if you look at his record, but yeah I forgot about him. I also didn't know Nolan or Henning came from the college ranks.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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So BigW...what combo do you want?
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I'm all for Marty and any GM that will work with him........I also like Mckay / Shanahan.......
"Winning is not a some time thing, it's an all the time thing" ....-Lombardi-
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McKay/Shazam popped in my mind also..I get a certain feel for those two..
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Quote:
I get a certain feel for those two
Whoa! Let's keep this PG folks! 
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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My bad on missing the guys you mentioned, but that really wasn't my main concern because you can do a list and debate the success/failure, I just really feel that with they way the NFL is right now, teams are better off with someone already affiliated with the league.
The league has and will continue to change, and right now college coaches have seem to struggle more.
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j/c
Well, maybe if the Pioli/Mangini/McKay/Whoever thing doesn't work out, we can try this route....BRONCOS INTERESTED IN PACKAGE DEAL WITH SPAGNUOLO? Posted by Josh Alper on January 2, 2009, 2:21 p.m. EST Giants defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo is set to have dinner and an “informal” conversation with the Broncos on Saturday night about their head coaching job. The Broncos also have an opening at general manager and, according to Tom Rock of Newsday, may be interested in discussing the possibility of a package deal involving Spagnuolo and Eagles G.M. Tom Heckert. The two men worked together before Spagnuolo left to join the Giants, and Heckert has been linked to other G.M. openings over the last couple of seasons. Andy Reid has final say on personnel decisions in Philly, which would turn what’s nominally a lateral move into an upward one for Heckert. The Lions targeted him for a position assisting Martin Mayhew, but Heckert wasn’t interested. With so many teams interested in Spagnuolo, the chance to work with a trusted friend may be a deciding factor on where he winds up. link
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Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 246 |
j/c Did anyone see if RAC has been asked to interview anywhere? I haven't even seen a rumor of an interest, but the Jets are looking to interview Mel Tucker, some might say it is a Rooney rule interview, morelikely he is really on the top of the Jets list as a contender, Notice they overlooked RAC altogether...maybe RAC really is that bad of a HC? 
Go Browns !!!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 396
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 396 |
Eotab,the question I have is when the new GM and coach comes in,how are they gonna judge the current Browns 53 man roster?
Are they going to evaluate the Browns on what they strictly did in 2008,or look at 2007 also?
Don't forget this team played uninspired football for the majority of the 2nd half of the season.
When you are winning,everything for the most part is harmonous.
But when you are losing and spiraling down,it truly reveals character.
In the last 6 games of 2008,the Browns were outscored 129-31.
Whats that old saying,"its not how you start,its how you finish sometimes"
Theres no doubt,there is talent on the Browns roster.
IMO though,there are very few untouchables on the roster.
Joe Thomas,Shaun Rogers,Brady Quinn and Eric Steinbach are locks to be on the 2009 roster. The young CB's will be here,but will the new regime draft a Malcom Jenkins?I have seen mock drafts where he's going to the Browns at #5.
Rubin could be a sleeper in 2009.
Whats going to happen to Wimbley..it looks like the experiment at LB as failed.
Braylon Edwards will be here,but does he truly want to be a Brown for the long run?
the right side of the o-line is shakey.
There will be turnover,theres no might about it. 24-38 and no playoff appearance constitutes more than a "tweaking"
Phil Savage didn't do any better than Butch Davis. Butch Davis did
"more" with less.
Davis had a harder uphill climb in rebuilding the Browns. Savage contrary to what he percieved,he talent to work with in 2005.
There are players off that 2004 Browns team,that are still producing in the NFL.
When had the season the Browns had in 2008,the new regime will leave no stone unturned. And the new GM,unlike Phil Savage, will value others input.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,213
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,213 |
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Let's do an experiment Pitt, because I've always had the same belief that you do, but I would like to know if the numbers back up our thoughts. Let's make a list of coaches who have come from college and failed.........
Okay. As long as we look at the circumstances involved in each of these cases.
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1. Petrino
2. Spurrier
3. Botch
4. Erickson
5. Saban (this one is debatable, because he was begining to turn that around before he quit them. However, he did quit because he didn't like the NFL)
6. Lou Holtz
For the sake of this debate and the very point of view from my perspective, I won't object to this list being adequate.
Look at each of the situations these men waled into. Fledgling franchises. Teams on the rocks that needed to be turned around. At least for the most part. One or two at best had good franchises walking in the door. But even at that, their teams were in total disaray.
Failure was pretty much the results in everyone of these cases. And most of these teams were pretty much in the same boat we're in right now.
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I can't think of any more, but feel free to add to the list
No, this will be fine.
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Now let's look at coaches from college who've had success in the NFL.....
And their circumstances that I believe you must consider that simply do not exist here. Firstly, while your list of failed college coaches who you listed goes back over a period of "very recent history", you use examples such as Bill Walsh and Paul Brown. in your list of one's that did.
So while I accept your college coach list as accurate in very recent history, I in NO WAY feel it's inclucive to the overall "big picture". Here's my point...................
Do you have any idea of how many college HC have failed since the days of Paul Brown? How about since Bill Walsh?
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1. Jimmy Johnson
That's a given. There's not doubt he's one of very few you can say that about.
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2. Barry Switzer (and yes Pitt he won a SB that counts no matter who's players they were)
Now, we looked at the formula and circumstances of the college coaches that have failed. If you don't believe that the environment and talent should be considered into the eqqasion, then we're certainly not going to see this the same. And that's okay too......
Switzer was handed over the reigns of a Super Bowl caliber team. All the talent was already there and their W/L record was great when he came through the door. So I give him the fact that he was able to take a great situation and win with it.
But how does that compare with our situation? Our situation is much more the above "failure scenarios" at best. And how long was Switzer able be succeeed? Didn't he regress rather than progress? How much of a long term soltion did he pan out to be for the Cowboys?
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3. Bill Walsh
Once again you are very correct about Walsh. But once again, look at the timeframe. I don't believe your college coaching list does the same. But I just don't like looking up that much history on the subject.
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4. Paul Brown
And once again, how long ago was that? Do you really believe your list includes even close to the college coaches that have failed since the fourties? Come on now........
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5. Tom Coughlin
Firstly, He certainly fits the list of successes. But if you look at the situation, it paints a picture that may not be as pretty on the surface. Yes, he made it. But let's look at that.
Instant hit with an expansion team. Then falls off. So much so he loses his job in Jacksonville. Gets hired in NY. Has measured success and turmoil surrounding him. Then, after a while gets it going has final success. But yes, great success.
But look at the tmeframe it took to accomplish it and the fact it was his second job where he reached that success at the NFL coaching level?
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6. John Robinson
And I'll agree with you there as well.
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7.Dick Vermeil
I'll agree with you there as well.
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Again if I left anyone off the list feel free to add to it.
Like I said, I'd bet you a small fortune that a LOT more college coaches have failed since Paul Brown!
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Now let's look over the last 20 years of the NFL and look at the statistics........
And the overall circumstances that were involved.
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Failed......
1.Spurrier
2. Botch
3. Petrino
4. Saban (going by previous conditions)
All entering circumstances very similar to our current situation. Which IMO is key to formula of failure in our situation.
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Success.......
1. Coughlin
2. Jimmy
3. Switzer
Out of these three, only one came into a situation that was in any way near ours and turned a team around and lead that team to a SB. Only one. Jimmy Johnson.
Coghlin didn't succeed his first time around. It was well into his career and with his second team for quite some time. Does that seem like something we're looking for here? I mean does that seem realistic?
And Switzer? Did we just win the SB or something?
He inherrited a great team. And he made that work "once". And how did it go after that? Was it a long term solution for Dallas? Do we have that kind of talent assembled to compare to the Switzer inherritance for a college coach to walk into?
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From these numbers, and again there might be some left off of either side, it seems that the success rate is about 50 percent regardless if we look over the past 50 or the past 20.
When you break it down into each situation, you portrayed a picture where you can only point out "one college coach" who actually came into the NFL, and with his first NFL HC position, actually "built a winning SB team" in the past 20 years. Only one.
And you also pointed out very accurately how one of these guys had talent so loaded walking into it, that our situation in no way resembles your example in any way. Purely apples to oranges And Switzer degressed as a HC, not progressed. Is that something you are promoting by your examples?
And the last 50 years? I'd hate to see the list of college coaches that never made it since Paul Brown. But I'm sure most people have forgotten more of them than you have on that list.
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I hate to say it Pitt, but that is probably in line with hiring a coordinator or a retread as far as success percentages go. I think the whole college coaches can't make it in the NFL thing might be a media/fan creation, based on the recent failures we've seen............that seems to be what these numbers tell us.
And I say that numbers can be a part of any equasion, but do not in and of themselves show any degree of accuracy given many variables much as I've described above on many occasions including this one.
We are in a situation the needs developing new talent. A young team that has underperformed. To be able to install a whole new game plan and have the players respect from day 1. We want our next HC to be a long term solution. And you gave a nice list of how that almost NEVER happens!
So when looking at these situations as a whole, I think your lists were just fine. With the acception of the fact that if you feel you acurately depicted college coaches who have failed in the last 50 years in this eqausion? We strongly disagree and those numbers wouldn't even be in the same ball park.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
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McKay/Shazam popped in my mind also..I get a certain feel for those two..
Sounds nice except that by all accounts, Shanahan wants total control,, do you think that mckay will go for that?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030 |
I want to hire a head of football operations, and then let him pick a guy who he is comfortable working with as a HC. I think this is the best formula for success, and avoids the mistakes that were made last time with the RAC/Opie situation.
As far as who those HOFOs/GMs would be?? I like Pioli, Mckay, and Parcells. I am not high on Reese at all, but he wouldn't be a terrible choice. I can live with any of those 4, and would be fine with any HC that they hired.
I am not picky about the people (within reason, and I would prefer the 1st 3 to Reese), but I am picky about the process, because we've screwed it up every time we've done it.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,213
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,213 |
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June Jones
Jack Pardee
Mike Nolan
Dennis Erickson
Dan Henning
Pete Carroll
Suddenly the list gets longer?
And I think it just goes to help bolster my above post. This is a far too risky proposition to get roped into right now with all of the proven merchandise on the market.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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