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Problem with this debate is the same as it was when that annoying group was screaming you have to give up 3 firsts to get luck. There are no more QBs worth drafting. Barkley goes out and outplays him. Griffin goes on to have his stellar year and that crowd mostly moved on from Luck is the only guy, to we have to sell everything to get Griffin. He is the only one that can lead us to the promised land.
Hell RG3 would probably get a lot more love around here if his supporters weren't so freaking annoying with you are stupid if you dont want this kid crap.
Agreed.
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Hell, just last year the Falcons threw a Hail Mary to get a WR.  To me, that was insane, because
I may be wrong, but wasn't the general consensus last year that the falcons were a legit playoff team - all set at qb, etc.....just needed a big time receiver? Maybe I'm confused.....but if that WAS the case - you know, a team that was set but just needed a play maker at rec. to take that "next step", I can see a team making that trade.
Yes, that is exactly what the case was. Julio Jones was viewed as the guy that would take their offense to the next level and put them in contention every year.
So far, so good on that front, too. He had a great rookie year and that offense looks to be set for years.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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The problem for me is, the price.
Well name your price homie
Let him fall to us at 4 and I think it's going to happen...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I love debate. I like to argue players strengths and weaknesses and we are all going to have players that we believe in and players we don't. RG3 This time last year was perceived as nothing more than a hopeful receiver at the next level. Hell I took flack from people when I put him at 15 in my first mock.
He has tremendous upside but I can not justify in any shape or form trading away a couple firsts and more to move up two spots to draft someone with so many question marks. I would have a tough time trading away a single second round pick to move up to get him. He is from the spread. He holds the ball way to long waiting for receivers to come open. His mechanics are bad and his footwork is worse. I can not remember a QB taking more hits that didn't run a primary option offense at the college level.
He has upside, in that he is fearless and will stand and deliver the ball. He has a good arm and it good be a terrific arm with better footwork and mechanics. He has great accuracy on the deepball and maintains that accuracy when flushed. He is a freak of nature that can flick his wrist like throwing a dart and hit a target 15 yards downfield with no trouble. He has all the intangibles to become a great quarterback.
Now as for comparison to Tannehill who I prefer, a lot of it is projection as well as scheme oriented. I really prefer Tannehill in this offense. I can see the square peg going into the square hole. With RG3 I see a picaso design going into a square hole.
Thats not saying RG3 can't get it done but just see a lot of things he needs to overcome to be that 10 year starter. The biggest thing holding back Tannehill at this point is game day experience at the QB position. Again compare RG3 to where he was at 2 years into being a starter and it isn't close.
I think with both kids there are risks and great rewards.I would just prefer risking as little as I can instead of risking another 3 year setback.
Last edited by Mourgrym; 02/28/12 12:37 PM.
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Thank you for your reasonable response.  
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Hell, just last year the Falcons threw a Hail Mary to get a WR. To me, that was insane, because
I may be wrong, but wasn't the general consensus last year that the falcons were a legit playoff team - all set at qb, etc.....just needed a big time receiver? Maybe I'm confused.....but if that WAS the case - you know, a team that was set but just needed a play maker at rec. to take that "next step", I can see a team making that trade.
Yeah, perhaps it was the right move in their eyes ....... but if I am giving up multiple 1's for a receiver, he had better be Calvin Johnson quality. If a team has the QB position right, it becomes much easier to find receivers.
The Steelers, Giants, Saints, and so on have proved that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hell, just last year the Falcons threw a Hail Mary to get a WR. To me, that was insane, because
I may be wrong, but wasn't the general consensus last year that the falcons were a legit playoff team - all set at qb, etc.....just needed a big time receiver? Maybe I'm confused.....but if that WAS the case - you know, a team that was set but just needed a play maker at rec. to take that "next step", I can see a team making that trade.
Yeah, perhaps it was the right move in their eyes ....... but if I am giving up multiple 1's for a receiver, he had better be Calvin Johnson quality. If a team has the QB position right, it becomes much easier to find receivers.
The Steelers, Giants, Saints, and so on have proved that.
Okay - so we established that the falcons thought they had almost all their ducks in a row, and they took a chance on the receiver.
You say for you to do that (give up multiple # 1's - which is kind of a misnomer, isn't it? I mean, when talking about the Browns giving up 2 firsts to move up, you say they aren't giving up 2 first round picks, as they'll have the first round pick they traded up for - thereby only giving up 1 first round pick............but anyway).............you say the rec. better be a calvin johnson type receiver. Johnson only had 48 receptions his first year for 756 yds.
In contrast, Julio Jones, in his rookie season, had 54 receptions for 959 yards.
Who is to say that J.J. won't surpass Johnson this year?
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A receiver's success greatly depends on who is throwing him the ball. Who was throwing Calvin Johnson the ball in his rookie season? John Kitna? Yippee. lol Look at how up and down Calvin Johnson's career has been. (even though his "downs" have still beev very good) 756 yards, then 1331, 984, 112, and this year, with a healthy Matthew Stafford, 1681. Jones might surpass Johnson, but I don't think that he will. Time will tell. Actually, other than passing yards, Jones really hasn't had much of an impact on the Falcons. They scored just a fraction fewer points per game this year compared to last, going from 25.9 to 25.1. They went from 28 pass TDs and 9 INT to 29 pass TDs and 13 INT. They did gain quite a bit passing the ball though, going from 222.9 to 262 yards/game. They won fewer games in 2011. They went 13-3 in 2010 and 10-6 in 2011. They were blown out in the first round of the playoffs in each year. Regardless, as you say, it does take time to see with some players, especially receivers. It will be interesting to see which team benefits the most from that trade when all is said and done.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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for all of Kitna's faults (and there are many), he has always been able to help his WRs put up decent stats.
as far as "surpassing Calvin Johnson" I don't think any WR is going to do that for a long time. he took over the Randy Moss mantle for physical freak that is just ridiculous playing WR.
#gmstrong
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Browns keep talking up Colt McCoy — they have to By Pat McManamon The Browns keep talking up Colt McCoy. While the world talks Robert Griffin III and Matt Flynn and Ryan Tannehill and all those other guys, the Browns keep saying they believe in McCoy and like McCoy. Tom Heckert said it most recently. Pat Shurmur said it. And team president Mike Holmgren said it soon after the season ended. They’re not ready to call him a franchise quarterback, but they believe they can win with McCoy. At least they say they do. Heckert emphasized that point: “We’re not down on Colt McCoy.” This could be a team sticking to the right message, a team that refuses to criticize one of its own players unnecessarily. It’s the right and proper thing to do. But the Browns also could be making these statements just in case, as in just in case McCoy winds up starting in 2012. It could happen. Griffin might wind up in Washington. Flynn might play in Miami. Tannehill might go to Seattle. And who knows what happens with Brandon Weeden? Which might mean the Browns wind up without a top new quarterback, and with McCoy the incumbent heading into 2012. Because of that the Browns need to keep McCoy believing in himself, and they need to continue to state that they believe in McCoy. This does not mean the Browns will have a bad draft. They well could wind up with a top cornerback in Morris Claiborne and an offensive tackle (Bobby Massie?) in the first round and perhaps a running back in the second round. That would be a big help. Three picks in the top 36 should be a big help. But it also might mean that fans would have to place their faith in McCoy again. Because it might just work out that way. web page
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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They’re not ready to call him a franchise quarterback, but they believe they can win with McCoy. At least they say they do. Heckert emphasized that point: “We’re not down on Colt McCoy.”
Then what's the point of talking to the Rams about the #2 pick?
It's still too early. We're in the drivers seat. We have the most ammunition should we choose to do something, so we hold all the cards. Everyone else has to play their hand first.
Regardless of what happens, the very worst thing we can do is not move at all, in which case we get one of the top-4 guys in this draft. That's not a bad thing. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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How has the Browns media managed (single-handedly) to elevate a 3rd/4th round pick (Bobbie Massie) up to #22?
~Lyuokdea
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I have seen Massie higher then that. 22 might be a stretch, but you never know how the board is shaping up.
I wouldn't be upset with Massie at 22. I might not be thrilled, but it wouldn't be a bad pick IMO.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Because of that the Browns need to keep McCoy believing in himself, and they need to continue to state that they believe in McCoy.
Or, maybe they just believe in him!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I'd be pissed if we get Massie at 22.. just like i was a lil pissed when we drafted Lauvao higher than we should have.. but doing in the first round would be even worse.
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Then what's the point of talking to the Rams about the #2 pick?
We are talking to the Rams alright...about them trading back to #4. The Ram's #2 pick that is being discussed is their 2nd Rder 
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It's still too early. We're in the drivers seat. We have the most ammunition should we choose to do something, so we hold all the cards. Everyone else has to play their hand first.
We may have more ammo, but we aren't as willing to waste it as is Snyder.
I am starting to think that we either take Claiborne or trade down.
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Then what's the point of talking to the Rams about the #2 pick?
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We are talking to the Rams alright...about them trading back to #4. The Ram's #2 pick that is being discussed is their 2nd Rder
Not sure I understand that?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Think he means the Rams trade w Wash to drop to 6, then try to come back up to #4
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
#gmstrong
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Think he means the Rams trade w Wash to drop to 6, then try to come back up to #4
Oh,, OK,, so they drop to 6 then trade up to 4 with us and offer thier 6 and thier 2nd round pick... OK,, Got it, thanks Cap.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I have said that this could happen for a while, not on here tho but to friends (yes I have a few). 
What I would ask from the rams, if this were to become the reality (them to 6 then wanting back up to 4), if what they wanted from us for moving up 2 spots. Now we aren't going to get that of course, but I would ask for what they got from washington, minus the 1st next year (I'd ask for it, but would know full well that they wouldn't part with it). However, to get was' 2nd this year and maybe a 3rd next year is reasonable, plus possibly a later round pick this year. All depends on what was gives up to get to #2, but I would ask and I wouldn't settle for much less.
If they want to try and fleece us to move up 2 spots, then we should do the same (IF IF IF this were to become the reality). I realize we would be moving up for a QB (most likely), and they wouldn't be, so a more valuable position perhaps (QB), but we would be taking a player at 4 that they would like to have.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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If we're talking to the Rams it's simply to say, if you want Blackmon you'd better take him at two otherwise you're SOL.
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I think that's an "ace in the hole" for us trading with the Rams. There's a good chance Blackmon will be there at 4, but if the Rams are sitting at 6, I could see someone trading with TB at 5, someone like the Jaguars. But, if Kalil is sitting there at 3, I doubt the Vikings trade out. So, Blackmon should still be there at 4 for the Rams.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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If the Rams are really targeting Blackmon, it's ours to play hardball with. We don't trade with them and let them know that if Blackmon makes it past the Vikes, he's ours. Force their hand, if they want him, take him at 2 and RG3 falls to us at 4 because I don't think the Vikes are going to pass on Kalil to trade with the skins and miss out on the left tackle they so desperately need.
If they do trade with the skins, we take Blackmon with a smile on our face into the new season.
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Regarding Blackmon;
Reportedly all of Cleveland's 8 scouts and Pat Shurmur were present at Ok. St.'s pro day. That doesn't say we're going to draft Blackmon but it could be solid evidence that we may in fact not be thinking of trading up at all.
[color:"white"]Such is life in Soviet Russia... I mean Cleveland[/color]
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I think the Browns FO recognizes that we need WR help. Blackmon is the best WR in this draft (IMO at least), so it would only make sense for us to check him out.
But, I think this FO is also curious about Weeden. I'll be curious to see who we bring in for one of our individual meetings.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Heckert also talked up Brandon Weeden.
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I think the Browns FO recognizes that we need WR help. Blackmon is the best WR in this draft (IMO at least), so it would only make sense for us to check him out.
But, I think this FO is also curious about Weeden. I'll be curious to see who we bring in for one of our individual meetings.
I agree but, IMO, there's a difference between having a couple scouts there to your whole scouting team plus the HC.
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Lots of guys to watch at OK St. Adcock and Markelle Martin, who is considered a top FS as well.
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I would bet that our entire scouting contingent will be present for ANY prospect that we're looking to possibly take at #4.
I wouldn't - yet - read anything more into it than they're being smart and wanting as complete a consensus as possible.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Its not like they (the scouts) have anywhere else to be right now...
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Shurmur talks up McCoy
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