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Legend
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Quote:
Umm, not sure where your stats come from, but we are allowing 25.9ppg, not 20.6, this season and rank 21st with that
We flashed both more good and really bad play. We'e traded constant AVG to below AVG play for up and down play that is below AVG at the bottom line level. That's reality apologists don't want to face and psychoanalyze away conspiracy style to make sense of it.
Yup, my bad... we're scoring 20.6.
So, uhhhh.... yeah. We're worse all around, lol!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Using points allowed, especially when you don't factor in all the miscues on offense and special teams is certainly a scientific means of evaluating the defensive performance of a team.
I didn't really have a problem w/Jauron. I thought he was a good coach. I did think he was a bit conservative, but he kept us in games. However, I think this year's defense is better than last year's, and I really don't care what stats you want to emphasize and which you guys choose to ignore.
Btw---------which team hired Jauron to be their DC this year?
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It's absolutely as valid as looking at only yards allowed. Without exception, regardless of extenuating circumstances. You cannot look at our yards allowed and say "we're the #8 defense!!" and say that we've improved when the bottom-line stat of points shows that there's been a regression. Quote:
Btw---------which team hired Jauron to be their DC this year?
No idea, and don't care - but you're free to go look it up if you are curious. This wasn't and isn't about Jauron.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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The yards allowed vs points allowed can point out a couple of things about our d. One of those is starting position for the opposing offense.
While it's not as bad as some posters make it out to be, I think that partially explains why there is such a difference between the yards vs points ranks. Additionally, our redzone offense is terrible.
Between those two points, I think you can explain the difference in ranking.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Starting position didnt matter:
Bears scored from their own 5 and 22yd line
JAX from their 20
NE from their 18,19
Those were the 4th Qtr collapses of just the past three games...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
It's absolutely as valid as looking at only yards allowed. Without exception, regardless of extenuating circumstances.
You cannot look at our yards allowed and say "we're the #8 defense!!" and say that we've improved when the bottom-line stat of points shows that there's been a regression.
I don't recall ever saying that we're the #8 defense. I don't recall saying that we should only look at yards allowed.
I think that it shows bias when posters only point out certain statistics. Some of you are very good at manipulating the truth. DJ is the master of it. He only points out certain stats. It's amazing that those stats support his argument that this FO and coaching staff sucks. You seem to be following his lead.
I have seen others only posting the positive stats, although those guys are fewer and far less vocal.
I think that all the stats should be considered. I also think that the eye test should also be a factor. And frankly, despite comments such as "So, uhhhh.... yeah. We're worse all around," I actually think this year's defense is better than last year's.
I am not asking you--or anyone--to agree. However, I will argue my viewpoint when people say that we are worse than last year.
Top of the day, to ya'
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What I was trying to say is that, over the course of a season, a defense that has to deal with more short fields isn't going to give up as many yards, but will tend to give up more points. Simple fact.
We also have a poor redzone D.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Yes, the fact that in the last 3 weeks we've been outscored something like 50-21 in the 4th quarter is a bit disconcerting... I'm sure we aren't saying anything the coaching staff hasn't spent countless hours dissecting and trying to figure out...
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
What I was trying to say is that, over the course of a season, a defense that has to deal with more short fields isn't going to give up as many yards, but will tend to give up more points. Simple fact.
We also have a poor redzone D.
very true.
also, please add in that our defense has struggled mightily with 3rd down % and red zone %. it also explains why despite our yardage (and more importantly yds/play) are well ranked but pts/game are not.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
It's absolutely as valid as looking at only yards allowed. Without exception, regardless of extenuating circumstances.
You cannot look at our yards allowed and say "we're the #8 defense!!" and say that we've improved when the bottom-line stat of points shows that there's been a regression.
I don't recall ever saying that we're the #8 defense. I don't recall saying that we should only look at yards allowed.
I think that it shows bias when posters only point out certain statistics. Some of you are very good at manipulating the truth. DJ is the master of it. He only points out certain stats. It's amazing that those stats support his argument that this FO and coaching staff sucks. You seem to be following his lead.
I have seen others only posting the positive stats, although those guys are fewer and far less vocal.
I think that all the stats should be considered. I also think that the eye test should also be a factor. And frankly, despite comments such as "So, uhhhh.... yeah. We're worse all around," I actually think this year's defense is better than last year's.
I am not asking you--or anyone--to agree. However, I will argue my viewpoint when people say that we are worse than last year.
Top of the day, to ya'
Then, perhaps you should read my comments in the context in which they are posted. Such as my comments about scoring defense being in response the question being asked "aren't we ranked better this year?" Or, the comment about "yeah, so we're worse all-around" being in regard to both offensive scoring (the stat I mistakenly posted) and scoring defense... where we indisputably suck this year.
So, climb down from both your ledge and your high horse and engage some reading comprehension skills before you go off on others for "manipulating" things or only looking at what they want to see - like you just did. 
G'day!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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My reading comprehension is just fine and that is why I addressed your post. In keeping w/the closing theme: Toodles............. 
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JC
I do admire his prognosticating ability.
He said we would see a different D after T-giving.He sure hit the nail on the head on that one.
He's a politician dressed in coach's warm ups.If he goes,fine,if he stays I hope somebody can keep him from the microphones.
Speaking of which,haven't heard much from him lately.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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What are we looking at, at least 7 HC job openings in the next 3 weeks?
Does anyone know what the book is on Horton, as a potential Head Coach? Is there any word (fact or opinion) on how he did on his interviews? How close he may have came to a job last year? What are his weaknesses? Strengths?
Do his strengths line up with the qualities looked for in a Head Coach?
What potential team or teams might be a good fit? What do you think may be the chance of him being here next year?
As of now - I see him getting interviews.
As of now, I don't see him leaving.
He isn't, according to our D, all he's cracked up to be.
If a team hires him - it might be a good thing for the Browns D.
Where is this "attacking" D we used to hear so much about? If you can't get to the qb.........and the qb burns you consistently ............I just don't get it.
I, and most, thought we had the horses up front to get to the qb - ANY qb. What I, and we, thought, has obviously been proven wrong.
Not only do we not sack the qb, we give up huge gains on 3rd down. Consistency is generally a good thing, unless you consistently give up firsts on 3rd.
I don't think we have to worry about Horton leaving us. I do wonder if we have to worry about him staying.
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Question for you.
When do we stop blaming the coaches and start looking at the freaking players that have been here for the past few seasons?
5 wins. 4 wins. 5 wins. And 4 or 5 this year.
Is it always the fault of the coaches, or do we have a lot of mentally weak players on this team?
I think we should be making big changes next years in regards to player personnel. We have a team full of losers. I'm sick of the half-hearted efforts. I'm sick of guys like Haden smiling into the stands when we are getting our clocks cleaned. I'm sick of guys like TJ Ward wuss out on tackles and then be talked about like a freaking pro bowler.
Time for some changes in regards to the roster.
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Legend
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Quote:
Question for you.
When do we stop blaming the coaches and start looking at the freaking players that have been here for the past few seasons?
5 wins. 4 wins. 5 wins. And 4 or 5 this year.
Is it always the fault of the coaches, or do we have a lot of mentally weak players on this team?
I think we should be making big changes next years in regards to player personnel. We have a team full of losers. I'm sick of the half-hearted efforts. I'm sick of guys like Haden smiling into the stands when we are getting our clocks cleaned. I'm sick of guys like TJ Ward wuss out on tackles and then be talked about like a freaking pro bowler.
Time for some changes in regards to the roster.
Answer for you: I don't know.
What I do know is prior to the year, we were told we'd be an attacking D. What I do know is general consensus was we had the d line to do it. What I do know is we showed it early in the season. What I do know is later in the season, we didn't show it.
I also BELIEVE Horton isn't going anywhere as a head coach this coming season.
Are our D problems the coach or the players? I don't know. Neither do you. What we both know is we aren't a D you want to trust the game to.
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Legend
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Quote:
Question for you.
When do we stop blaming the coaches and start looking at the freaking players that have been here for the past few seasons?
5 wins. 4 wins. 5 wins. And 4 or 5 this year.
Is it always the fault of the coaches, or do we have a lot of mentally weak players on this team?
I think we should be making big changes next years in regards to player personnel. We have a team full of losers. I'm sick of the half-hearted efforts. I'm sick of guys like Haden smiling into the stands when we are getting our clocks cleaned. I'm sick of guys like TJ Ward wuss out on tackles and then be talked about like a freaking pro bowler.
Time for some changes in regards to the roster.
then you need to get rid of DQ, cause he was getting handled today.
you need to get rid of thomas and mack, because they absolutely stunk it up today, the entire ol did.
by your logic, we need to swap out every single player. every. single. one.
the problem isn't the players. we haven't won more than 5 games since 2007. so by your logic, none of the coaches stunk during that time? just all the players? we have probably overhauled the roster every 3 years during that time span, so about 2. you're saying coaching has zero to do with that?
you're telling me its the players fault that baker is running well, but norv once again went against the run and passed way more?
its the players fault that they only rush 3-4 people, even though we were BUILT for rushing damn near every down?
you mean its the players fault for poor clock management, because the coaches can't get the plays out in time?
you mean its the players fault that on 3rd and 1, we run draw plays or throw it?
there are definitely players that have to go. but you wanting to get rid of the few proven playmakers is straight up stupid.
the season is already over with, hell the season has been over with ever since the offense folded in the cincy game after the bye.
will STILL need another ILB, a #2 CB, because skrine got ate alive today, him AND mcfadden. which means we need more depth at DB.
we need a #2 WR, and probably another slot WR, we need a #2 TE. we need 2 G's, and a RT.
thats a lot of needs. you're the main poster preaching to us about giving the FO time and such. the last few games has been the coach's fault just as much as the players.
so if you wanna overhaul the roster, then these bum ass coaches need to go, as well.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Horton hasn't done his job. All he has done is run his big fat mouth and nothing to back it up with. Lousy players doesn't help either. Arizona sure hasn't missed him. Their D is better than ever this year. I think we could use every pick in this next draft on defense it is that pathetic. This DLine is so overrated it's not funny. We need a slew of linebackers also. D'Qell and Robertson ect are not cutting it. Ward and Gibson are are beyond garbage.
Congratulations to our 2016 NBA Champion CLEVELAND CAVALIERS!!! Greatest comeback in sports history... Hail to the King!
The great QB guru and the Moneyball group: 1-15
Record of Criminal Haslam owned Browns: 20-60 (0.250)
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We have a good coaching staff and a good group of young players but we do lack depth and we we wear down late. A full year in this system along with strengthening the back end and middle of the roster will help this defense tremendously.
Big Phil, Sheard, Armonty Bryant, Haden, Gipson, Skrine, Mingo and Winn are a nice young group of talent. Then you have the more mature vets like DQ, Rubin, Kruger, Desmond Bryant. I love the direction of this defense and they have surpassed my expectations for year 1.
Desmond Bryant loss was devastating for our 3rd downs. If we can get bryant back along with a year of growth from armonty bryant, I think our 3rd downs will become a strength.
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Outside of Haden there's zero respect for our secondary. (except for being whacked by Ward, but not his coverage skills)
If we could provide good coverage making the QB hold the ball a second or two longer our sack total rises.
I like our D but admittedly have not seen the multi formation, fast flying D as promised. Whatever they allowed Kruger to do in Bmore needs replicated here.
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But it was preached on this board that our front 7 would make the secondary look improved, not that it was supposed to work the other way around. I just think the fan base gets too excited over bright, new, shiny things.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Quote:
When do we stop blaming the coaches and start looking at the freaking players that have been here for the past few seasons?
5 wins. 4 wins. 5 wins. And 4 or 5 this year.
Is it always the fault of the coaches, or do we have a lot of mentally weak players on this team?
It's not "always" any one person or groups fault.. but every single time I hear players interviewed, they all seem to agree... the mental make-up of the team starts with the coach. He's the guy that sets the tone.
That said, I don't think it's unfixable... Going back to the Panthers.. Carolina was viewed as very mentally weak team and Cam Newton was viewed as one of the leaders in mental weakness.. Did anybody see what they did to the Saints yesterday in the final minute?
Luke Kiechle said after the game in an interview with the radio announcers... "Winning a little breeds confidence, confidence breeds more winning"... I go into every year hoping and praying that this team can win early and get off to a fast start because that would give them confidence.. but in the last 10 seasons, our record in weeks 1-3 is 6-24...
yebat' Putin
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TJ Ward was horrendous in coverage. I absolutely see why we had Robertson guarding guys like Reggie Bush now. He missed tackles, he was no where to be found in coverage, just bad. I was on the fence about him and his contract situation, but I know where I'm at now.
If it's between him or Mack, I let Ward walk.
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Quote:
I do know that we made him one of the highest paid DC's in the NFL. I hoping he has a chip on his shoulder and will refuse to be teams Rooney rule lackey and refuse to interview...
That doesn't make any sense. He is a black man. Bogus interview or not, the only way he gets a head gig is to interview. How does he know who has a true interest and who doesn't?
I'd say there is a good chance he gets a head job this year.
Our D has improved and most know we haven't won only 4 games because of the D. Sure, we have lost a few games because of the D, but it is mostly because we can't move the ball well enough on O.
Well I'm a black man too but it won't me into the Browns draft warroom.,..I've been tryng since this old board came into existence..  but if I were watching the Browns D all year , I'd be a tad bit hesitant to say he's gone. .
Oh I'm sure he will get a few offers but it's one to keep a eye on.
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I'd say it would be a pretty hard sell telling your owner that you just hired a guy who has never been a Head Coach and whose Defense was part of a 4-12 team.
Horton will get interviews if he wants them but I doubt he gets hired by anyone this year.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Legend
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Quote:
I'd say it would be a pretty hard sell telling your owner that you just hired a guy who has never been a Head Coach and whose Defense was part of a 4-12 team.
Horton will get interviews if he wants them but I doubt he gets hired by anyone this year.
My guess is, after this year, I bet he won't even attempt an interview. He wants another reclamation project-- he built ARZ defense after a few years and now Cleveland. He signed a four year $8M deal to be our DC....my guess is he stays around for the right opportunity as he is very highly compensated for his position.
Tackles are tackles.
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He will not get a HC job in this league but if he does not major loss.
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Just some random replies:
Jauron was a very good coach. Without big Phil for most of the year and when he returned he wasnt the same and an often injured Rubin last year, he produced similar results as this year.
Horton is a very good coach. This team went through a massive change in philosophy and was really starting to show when Bryant went down. That loss killed the defense. Big Phil and Desmond Bryant opened it up for others to make plays and they made plays of their own. The loss of desmond Bryant is the single biggest factor for the decline of the defense down the stretch.
Big Phil has worn down with the barrage of double teams. The backups arent bad but the drop off is rather significant. Without Des and Phil wrecking havoc in the middle, the secondary gets hung out to dry. What is obvious is that our outside pass rushers arent difference makers without the interior guys forcing plays to them.
It is a young talented team and they should improve with another year in this scheme along with hopefully the return of desmond bryant.
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Quote:
...Jauron was a very good coach.
I was elated by the hire, and very sorry to see him go. I am not particularly a fan of the 4-3 over the 3-4 as both can get the job done. However, I must say that as a general observation, there has been no bottom line improvement this year over last...disappointing.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Jauron was better here than I expected him to be. I never particularly cared for his overall philosophy, especially speed over all else, particularly in the power running AFCN. He did not make the final call on players, though, so that never became an issue here. As a coordinator, he did a fine job.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Just some random replies:
Jauron was a very good coach. Without big Phil for most of the year and when he returned he wasnt the same and an often injured Rubin last year, he produced similar results as this year.
Horton is a very good coach. This team went through a massive change in philosophy and was really starting to show when Bryant went down. That loss killed the defense. Big Phil and Desmond Bryant opened it up for others to make plays and they made plays of their own. The loss of desmond Bryant is the single biggest factor for the decline of the defense down the stretch.
Big Phil has worn down with the barrage of double teams. The backups arent bad but the drop off is rather significant. Without Des and Phil wrecking havoc in the middle, the secondary gets hung out to dry. What is obvious is that our outside pass rushers arent difference makers without the interior guys forcing plays to them.
It is a young talented team and they should improve with another year in this scheme along with hopefully the return of desmond bryant.
For this unit to work it needs 3 things:
1-a stud ILB
2-Mingo to add weight/muscle and some moves
3-Ballhawk FS
4-A big corner opposite Haden
O.k that's four, never enough
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I'd say it would be a pretty hard sell telling your owner that you just hired a guy who has never been a Head Coach and whose Defense was part of a 4-12 team.
Horton will get interviews if he wants them but I doubt he gets hired by anyone this year.
The Browns hired Chud, who had never been a head coach before, and whose offense was part of a 7-9 team. I don't think it's a far fetched notion that Horton could be hired as a HC somewhere.
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Didn't say it was far fetched. I said it would be a hard sell. And I believe that is true.
As I said, I believe that he'll get some interviews, just not any offers.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Quote:
Didn't say it was far fetched. I said it would be a hard sell. And I believe that is true.
As I said, I believe that he'll get some interviews, just not any offers.
Okay, I'll rephrase. It wouldn't be a hard sell.
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OP
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Hmmm.....
Wonder what is gonna happen tomorrow.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
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LINK Browns | Ray Horton allowed to explore options Wed, 01 Jan 2014 10:29:51 -0800 The Cleveland Browns have allowed defensive coordinator Ray Horton to explore other coaching options. Source: CBSSports.com - Jason La Canfora
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Jimmy and Joe admitted in their presser they would be "liberal" in terms of allowing the coordinators and etc interview and such elsewhere.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
I'll bet Jerry is already being him to come to Dallas.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,118 Likes: 134
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,118 Likes: 134 |
Just clicking
I remember when this thread was about how we were going to lose Horton and how we could keep him and maybe where he'd end up...
LOL Amazing how a few weeks can change things
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,489 Likes: 723
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,489 Likes: 723 |
Quote:
Just clicking
I remember when this thread was about how we were going to lose Horton and how we could keep him and maybe where he'd end up...
LOL Amazing how a few weeks can change things
hey, is he staying here? or is there word teams are looking at him for the DC spot? i haven't seen anything, but i'm worried we gonna lose him.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,774 Likes: 1341
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,774 Likes: 1341 |
Quote:
Just clicking
I remember when this thread was about how we were going to lose Horton and how we could keep him and maybe where he'd end up...
LOL Amazing how a few weeks can change things
Yes it is. Some of the ones hoping we wouldn't lose him now have no problem with it because this FO told them they should suddenly think differently.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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