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But I also think that neither of these guys, Farmer or Pettine is his guys.
I look at it like this ddubia... With Farmer.. He could have let him go and found his new GM.. Maybe he was concerned about it being to close to the draft to let him go... or the guy he wants isn't available... But I think he likes Farmer..
Pettine...If he wasn't his guy...Then I believe he would have given Quinn that second interview... Who knows really... I just think Jimmy would have gotten who ever he wanted no matter what Joe and Mike said...
Just like always.. we will have to wait and see how the two perform... Got a feeling it may work out well this time.
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There's so many in that "clique" they can't be all be named.  When I named some old timers I only covered a few that posted just above me. Saint and Pit and a few others responded. Man, me and Pit used to have discussions/arguments that lasted pages. LOL Someone should start a page in Tailgate about the old days.
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Yeah Deisel, I think it may work out for the best as well. Farmer and Pettine look to be a couple of tough guys. Hopefully they can change the culture. Neither looks like a weasel and when Pettine leaves off those sunglasses he doesn't look nearly so much like Trent Dilfer as he does with 'em on.
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For something that was said in jest, it sure is getting a lot of play. That was a nice piece on the history of this board that you posted, Double-D...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Hehe.. Ask him about The Spud Wars...
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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I think that was a little before me Saint. Remember hearing about it though. 
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jc.
so....with Farmer and Pettine now the mans here in brownstown, you guys think Haslam actually let these guys do what they do, or are they on short leashes, as well?
Hopefully Jimmy will learn he can't go nuclear on this organization every year and expect to win games.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Don't forget ya'll clique meeting on my porch at 4 pm, The rockers are all set up and coolers are full of ice. 
Did you remember to order the pizza this time!
Yes but somebody ate it all this time.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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clique??? lol  thats funny oh btw leave Jules alone She's IN THE CLIQUE! 
But that sort of is ridiculous I've almost strangled each poster...but after time we can't get away with some mutual RESPECT for each other. That's all it is...btw you forgot to add Pit...I think he's in the clique too...just a rebel.
seriously...Jules is as sweet as one can be in real life.
Oh crap she has you fooled
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Eo, NRTU, just clicking
I am in the classification that thinks it's entirely ok to both like what Jimmy Haslam has done and also be wary of the man as the owner of the Cleveland Browns. I cannot say I am 100% on board with all of the decisions he has made, but this latest move gives him some cache with me. I am extremely anxious as his stewardship of the team I am a fan of and fear that his impulsiveness will continue, however, I also feel that his pride has taken such a massive blow that he can't fathom making more changes at least for a few more years.
Think about the impetus for this latest move. According to the reports, he was hearing negative things about his team, his BRAND, and he felt he needed to make a drastic change to ensure that his investment didn't lose all value. His attutude that the media created the tag of dysfunction also points to him feeling that the perception has been palpable and his direct attention was reqired to correct this. So, he cut out the last vestiges of his initial crew and started fresh. To think that Farmer, Pettine and Schiener are all on "borrowed time" is somewhat naeive when it comes to dealing with an owner that just watched his business get diminished yet again. To blow this up in even the next two years will completely drive the value to zero, obliterate his already tenuous reputation and kill any chance that anyone of prestige will EVER work for the Browns.
I'm certainly not advocating every move Haslam has made, and I have made numerous comments to friends that he hews a bit to close to the Jerry Jones mold for my liking, but I do feel he made these moves in a clear mind and with the teams (and to a lesser extent, the fans) interest at heart. Do I fear that he will be one that feels it so important to get involved with the day to day decisions? Sure, but I also feel that he could have possibly learned a lesson from this latest go round on the media tour and is tired of being crucified for making business decisions.
As for Farmer, I don't fear that he can't or won't do a good job. I have this suureal sense that we finally found our surrogate Ozzy here and he can do his job and do it effectively. He doesn't have the history of being in charge, he's a rookie GM, and Pettine is a rookie HC. However, I think most seem to forget that everyone, regardless of how the career ends up, is a rookie at some point. Paul Brown, Lombardi, Noll, Landry, Shula, Ditka, Parcells, Walsh, Cowher and Belechick were all rookies at some point. Same with countless GMs in this game. Even some of those I just named didn't catch lightning in a bottle twice, but the fact remains that we don't know how good one is until we observe them in action. So, Farmer and Pettine both have my support unless they do something to make me lose faith. Because that is a massive part of the make up of a Browns fan; faith. It's what makes us all excited, against common sense, around training camp!
When it comes to his relationship with Pettine, and whether he is a Farmer guy, is not a great concern, as I'm sure that even though he didn't directly inteview him, he had to vet him to a certain extent. For example, in my career, I have to assist interviews. I don't sit in on them, but these prospective employees will answer to me, similar to Pettine will to Farmer. However, I do extensive research on the resumes and applications as well as send questions I feel would be effective in determining the valditity of a candidate. Thus, I can draw some similar parallels to the situation that our FO is in. I work for a beer company, so I guarantee you that an NFL franchise takes that process to the next level!
Even the most strident Banner supporters need to admit that he wasn't doing this team any favors in NFL circles. If one believes Cabot's report, FOs across the league are now back on our speed dial, and we don't have a prohibitive cloud hanging over our player acquisitions and communication. While I admit to not liking him, it stems from his smugness and his seeming superiority in terms of football knowledge. As to how that plays out in a room of real football men, look no further than Farmers response to that question regarding Banner in the presser. I look forward to seeing what Farmer does starting in free agency and carrying on to the draft. That alone will give us a good idea of where we are headed, not his work in KC, as he didn't pull the trigger on those moves, he simply helped aim the gun.
In the case of Lombardi, I suspect that next year we won't see so many stories coming out of Brownstown in pretty much all situations. Notice this year how many stories popped up about the Gordon trade, the Hoyer situation, the whole Chud situation, and during the coaching search there seemed to be a different take every hour. I guarantee the source of the majority of those stories was Lombardi. His perch in the journalism trade earned him some pretty considerable confidantes and mouth pieces, and he utilized that to his extent. I didn't like the vibe coming out of Berea all year long and the national media seemed to have a field day in exposing all of these stories as the season drug on.
His track record speaks for itself. He has had serious difficulty placing talent in the corresponding holes in each of his stops up to and including this latest tango in Cleveland. The Richardson trade he (Banner?) made certainly looks great now, but it could have just as easily blown up on us. The Hoyer deal has yet to be fully evaluated as we still cannot be sure Hoyer is a worthwhile NFL level starter. He punted the 2013 draft to this year, and the merits of that can be debated, but to so nonchalantly push a full draft aside can't be forgiven in my book. He needed to give this team some building blocks in 2013, and he gave us a mediocre to below average draft class (have to wait a few years to fully eval).
His FA acquisitions can also be debated as they didn't live up to expectations. Note, I am not saying they performed poorly, I am saying for the money they got paid, they didn't meet expectations. Kruger did add a lot to the defense, but for the money should have been a monster and establishing team-record level numbers. Groves was pretty much non-existent. When it comes to Bess and Bryant, I cannot resolve the fact that the FO didn't do thier due diligence. Bryant had/has a heart condition that effects his reliability on game day and we all know the Bess situation. Regardless of whether the Bess mess could have been uncovered or not, the fact that it happened before we dealt for him and then gave him guaranteed money could not have helped either Banner or Lombardi's cause.
What's done is done. Haslam has made his bed and we can only hope he is ready to sleep in it. I, for one, feel that he understands the repercussions if he acts too brashly again in the coming years. He won't be looking at being called a stooge, he'll be looking at being called a murderer of a team that even the NFL and Art Modell couldn't kill no matter how hard they tried.
"If you need two yards, I'll get you two yards. If you need four yards, I'll get you two yards!" Ron Wolfley, Special Teams Madman
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Don't forget ya'll clique meeting on my porch at 4 pm, The rockers are all set up and coolers are full of ice.
You need to set up the video conference for those of us not local.
Are you really sure you want GM setting up anything to do with video? 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That was a great read... thanks for that!
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Good read, Wolf. I agree mostly.
Haslam is not the Top Dawg of a conglomerate in Pilot by having knee-jerk reactions all the time. If he ran that business like that, he would have gone under long ago.
He strikes me as a guy who will give credit when due and slap your PP when you screw up in his business.
He slapped the PP's of the 2 people who were creating all the negative reaction to his baby (Owning the Browns). And he did it swiftly and is moving on.
I now see Haslam sitting back and observing where his baby goes from here on out and let's his football people do their thing.
The PP slapping is over. Now there is a calm in Browns Town and I'd bet virtually EVERYONE including players feel that sense of calm. The merry go round is dead.
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Haslam isn't going to interfere. His guys are going to be able to make their decisions.
What we are seeing is accountability. I don't think he liked Chud from the beginning...too soft, but he went with him because Banner and Lombo wanted him....for that softness.
The decision to dump Chud was Haslams. Then in the interview process he saw his top two guys bickering and unable to agree. That opened his eyes and he decided he just needed to punt the two of them. That's how I see it.
Accountability. The new word in Cleveland. Farmer and Pettine are going to be held accountable. I don't think anyone gets canned next year, but Haslam isn't going to be the type of owner who looks at how many more years they have on their contracts before making the decision to move in a different direction if things aren't going well.
I like that. Team after team have shown the ability to show marked improvements after 1-2 seasons yet we continue to be stuck in the mud since 99....15 years.
2014 is a meaningful year for us Browns fans. That is 50 years since we last won the title. FIFTY Friggen years. Yep, we need accountability because that is a stat for losers.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Eo, NRTU, just clicking
I am in the classification that thinks it's entirely ok to both like what Jimmy Haslam has done and also be wary of the man as the owner of the Cleveland Browns. I cannot say I am 100% on board with all of the decisions he has made, but this latest move gives him some cache with me. I am extremely anxious as his stewardship of the team I am a fan of and fear that his impulsiveness will continue, however, I also feel that his pride has taken such a massive blow that he can't fathom making more changes at least for a few more years.
Think about the impetus for this latest move. According to the reports, he was hearing negative things about his team, his BRAND, and he felt he needed to make a drastic change to ensure that his investment didn't lose all value. His attutude that the media created the tag of dysfunction also points to him feeling that the perception has been palpable and his direct attention was reqired to correct this. So, he cut out the last vestiges of his initial crew and started fresh. To think that Farmer, Pettine and Schiener are all on "borrowed time" is somewhat naeive when it comes to dealing with an owner that just watched his business get diminished yet again. To blow this up in even the next two years will completely drive the value to zero, obliterate his already tenuous reputation and kill any chance that anyone of prestige will EVER work for the Browns.
I'm certainly not advocating every move Haslam has made, and I have made numerous comments to friends that he hews a bit to close to the Jerry Jones mold for my liking, but I do feel he made these moves in a clear mind and with the teams (and to a lesser extent, the fans) interest at heart. Do I fear that he will be one that feels it so important to get involved with the day to day decisions? Sure, but I also feel that he could have possibly learned a lesson from this latest go round on the media tour and is tired of being crucified for making business decisions.
As for Farmer, I don't fear that he can't or won't do a good job. I have this suureal sense that we finally found our surrogate Ozzy here and he can do his job and do it effectively. He doesn't have the history of being in charge, he's a rookie GM, and Pettine is a rookie HC. However, I think most seem to forget that everyone, regardless of how the career ends up, is a rookie at some point. Paul Brown, Lombardi, Noll, Landry, Shula, Ditka, Parcells, Walsh, Cowher and Belechick were all rookies at some point. Same with countless GMs in this game. Even some of those I just named didn't catch lightning in a bottle twice, but the fact remains that we don't know how good one is until we observe them in action. So, Farmer and Pettine both have my support unless they do something to make me lose faith. Because that is a massive part of the make up of a Browns fan; faith. It's what makes us all excited, against common sense, around training camp!
When it comes to his relationship with Pettine, and whether he is a Farmer guy, is not a great concern, as I'm sure that even though he didn't directly inteview him, he had to vet him to a certain extent. For example, in my career, I have to assist interviews. I don't sit in on them, but these prospective employees will answer to me, similar to Pettine will to Farmer. However, I do extensive research on the resumes and applications as well as send questions I feel would be effective in determining the valditity of a candidate. Thus, I can draw some similar parallels to the situation that our FO is in. I work for a beer company, so I guarantee you that an NFL franchise takes that process to the next level!
Even the most strident Banner supporters need to admit that he wasn't doing this team any favors in NFL circles. If one believes Cabot's report, FOs across the league are now back on our speed dial, and we don't have a prohibitive cloud hanging over our player acquisitions and communication. While I admit to not liking him, it stems from his smugness and his seeming superiority in terms of football knowledge. As to how that plays out in a room of real football men, look no further than Farmers response to that question regarding Banner in the presser. I look forward to seeing what Farmer does starting in free agency and carrying on to the draft. That alone will give us a good idea of where we are headed, not his work in KC, as he didn't pull the trigger on those moves, he simply helped aim the gun.
In the case of Lombardi, I suspect that next year we won't see so many stories coming out of Brownstown in pretty much all situations. Notice this year how many stories popped up about the Gordon trade, the Hoyer situation, the whole Chud situation, and during the coaching search there seemed to be a different take every hour. I guarantee the source of the majority of those stories was Lombardi. His perch in the journalism trade earned him some pretty considerable confidantes and mouth pieces, and he utilized that to his extent. I didn't like the vibe coming out of Berea all year long and the national media seemed to have a field day in exposing all of these stories as the season drug on.
His track record speaks for itself. He has had serious difficulty placing talent in the corresponding holes in each of his stops up to and including this latest tango in Cleveland. The Richardson trade he (Banner?) made certainly looks great now, but it could have just as easily blown up on us. The Hoyer deal has yet to be fully evaluated as we still cannot be sure Hoyer is a worthwhile NFL level starter. He punted the 2013 draft to this year, and the merits of that can be debated, but to so nonchalantly push a full draft aside can't be forgiven in my book. He needed to give this team some building blocks in 2013, and he gave us a mediocre to below average draft class (have to wait a few years to fully eval).
His FA acquisitions can also be debated as they didn't live up to expectations. Note, I am not saying they performed poorly, I am saying for the money they got paid, they didn't meet expectations. Kruger did add a lot to the defense, but for the money should have been a monster and establishing team-record level numbers. Groves was pretty much non-existent. When it comes to Bess and Bryant, I cannot resolve the fact that the FO didn't do thier due diligence. Bryant had/has a heart condition that effects his reliability on game day and we all know the Bess situation. Regardless of whether the Bess mess could have been uncovered or not, the fact that it happened before we dealt for him and then gave him guaranteed money could not have helped either Banner or Lombardi's cause.
What's done is done. Haslam has made his bed and we can only hope he is ready to sleep in it. I, for one, feel that he understands the repercussions if he acts too brashly again in the coming years. He won't be looking at being called a stooge, he'll be looking at being called a murderer of a team that even the NFL and Art Modell couldn't kill no matter how hard they tried.
Nice to see you come out of the shadows, Wolfley.
I like to see Haslam put his stamp on the team. I don't think that he's going to blow anything up anytime soon unless there are serious issues with the team. These are, for all intents and purposes, his guys. They're the ones promoting his brand now, not just some schlubs that are there to punch a clock.
In regards to Farmer, I'm a big proponent of his. I'm glad that he withdrew his name from the Miami job. It meant that he was committed to the Browns. All things aside, he liked what he saw as the direction of the Browns (Pettine's hiring, etc.) and wanted to be a part of it. Now, he gets the chance to be a key player in it, not as an understudy.
I'm not a Banner supporter. I did like the moves he made in dealing some players. I don't even mind the FA acquisitions last season. While they haven't lived up to expectations (after one year), I think that it played part of why the last coaching staff is no longer here. That is, the coaching staff's inability to get the most out of these players.
Despite Kruger's insistence that he can be an every down player, he showed that he's effective as a situational player. Maybe he could take more snaps than he did in BallsNoMore, but he shouldn't have played as many snaps as he did his first season in Cleveland. Maybe they can get him back to being the situational contributor.
As for Bryant, he had early success and tailed off late. And there really wasn't any reason to suspect that he had a problem. He played all but one game in 4 seasons with Oakland. In reality, he probably could have kept playing last season, but they took precautions and shut him down.
It seemed to me that Lombardi was the invisible man. You knew he was there (the clothes walking around were the giveaway) but you never saw him. How much did he actually have to do with anything that went on? I don't think anyone really knows, including Haslam.
I'm not so sure that the punting, as you put it, of the 2013 draft to this year is really valid. The evaluations they made were that they talent level available didn't meet the level of the selections available. It's simply a judgment call. Besides, they took some players that contributed nicely.
It appears to me that Haslam doesn't take kindly to his reputation being sullied. I think that's the same aspect that he's taking with Pilot / Flying J and with the Browns. I think that he feels that he's been lied to by the NFL (Goodell & Co.), by the people he hired to be the caretakers of his business (Banner, Lombardi, & Co.) and maybe even by some of the lower level employees (the players) who are simply here to receive a paycheck without actually earning it.
Maybe he's learned a valuable lesson and that's why he got rid of some parts that he could and hired their replacements himself.
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Haslam isn't going to interfere. His guys are going to be able to make their decisions.
What we are seeing is accountability. I don't think he liked Chud from the beginning...too soft, but he went with him because Banner and Lombo wanted him....for that softness.
The decision to dump Chud was Haslams. Then in the interview process he saw his top two guys bickering and unable to agree. That opened his eyes and he decided he just needed to punt the two of them. That's how I see it.
Accountability. The new word in Cleveland. Farmer and Pettine are going to be held accountable. I don't think anyone gets canned next year, but Haslam isn't going to be the type of owner who looks at how many more years they have on their contracts before making the decision to move in a different direction if things aren't going well.
I like that. Team after team have shown the ability to show marked improvements after 1-2 seasons yet we continue to be stuck in the mud since 99....15 years.
2014 is a meaningful year for us Browns fans. That is 50 years since we last won the title. FIFTY Friggen years. Yep, we need accountability because that is a stat for losers.
Nothing to really disagree with here. What we all witnessed, I think, is accountability being meted out on a grand scale by Haslam.
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My suspicion is that he regrets the Chud firing most of all.
I disagree and I believe that Haslam fired Chud w/out Banner's blessings.
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true n ddubbia you are in the Old timer list don't forget the very Special Mac...lol
As for being his guys. Lets start with Pettine - It was Haslam who pushed for him to the point of insisting on him over riding Banner who wanted to wait for Quinn. So I think without a doubt Pettine is a Haslam guy not a settle.
Farmer - was interviewed for the Miami GM job and I think it got to the stage where they asked to meet with Farmer's people to start talks on contract it was here that Haslam had a long talk with Farmer which convinced Farmer to stay here to finish something he started. So again I think Famer is most definitely a Haslam guy.
What I hope is happening is we are putting together a LONG TERM FO young and football intelligent as well as excellent in the administration and contract department. GM and HC both young and willing to work together. Not like the disfunctional mess we had before which I do blame Banner cause he was the CEO and yes, I don't blame Haslam too much cause I don't think he had the time to be the Head. Evidently now he does but even so he still went and contacted a guy like Parcells. But what we put together now seems to a real good cohesive bunch a Gifted young guys coming into their own. Right place right time.
However how messed up it was before - I think its been righted. Haslam is pretty smart in his own right. He took a truck stop business and made it into a highly successful business. Many family business down fall after the kids take over - with our Haslam he made it into something bigger n better. So the guy knows a little something about organization and Leadership.
Guaranteed to work? We both know there is no such thing. But as much as a Homer as I am I truly think with all my intelligence not emotions that we just made our Organization into the best one we ever had. From Clark, Policy, Palmer - Butch, Garcia, Clark - Savage, RAC, Other guy? - Mangini, Kokinos - Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur - Banner, Lombardi, Chud.
The combo of Intelligence and cohesiveness just was not there in any of the regimes.
Regime 1 - Infra structure from Policy was ok - Clark n others INEPT.
Regime 2 - Micro managing from Butch and his little black book of HS recruits as our GM just didn't work.
Regime 3 - RAC was too nice and there was a Power struggle with pres vs GM early on then RAC tried to make it cohesive but Savage was coniving and had his own agenda.
Regime 4 - Kokinos flaked out on us within 5 months he was gone we could have had something there and this is where Randy sort of fired himself.
Regime 5 - Holmgren did not work hard, Heckert was the best GM we had in Personnel but his choice of Shurmur sucked and Holmgren mettled enough to mess things up.
Regime 6 - Banner, Lombardi, Chud - as it turned out they all didn't mesh even Banner's relationship with Lombardi soured as it turned out simply put Banner wanted to control EVERYTHING even what Toilet Paper we were going to use at the facilities
This one we got Young guys who are Gifted Sheiner and Farmer both here last year carrying a big load in their perspective fields. They know our Roster Sheiner knows our infrastructure and contract situations. Just for the fact that once the change was made that we started negotiating with Haden an Entire season prior to the current contract expiring was significant to me that these guys get it. When you wait to FA season you lose all leverage and the players will definitely want to see some offers out there even if they want to stay here - its like why not and up their ante.
But these guys are NEW and yet experienced. But they seem willing to band together and make this work. Its not about MY WAY - Its about the Browns which is the perception I get. They all will have the power withing their Departments but all work together to make it Cohesive as one.
Well thought out and put together by Haslam. Each and everyone of these guys are HIS GUYS weather he found them initially or not.
jmho of course
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I really enjoyed reading your post, but I do take issue with one portion of it. The value of the investment. This team has pretty much been dysfunctional since it came back in 1999. No real improvements. Never have answered the QB position. Yet at the same time, the value has gone up and up. I believe Lerner initially paid around 570 million. Yet his son sold a dysfunctional team for a billion. With only 32 franchises available in the NFL, I really don't see any NFL franchise "losing value". I'm not lock step in line with all of your other views, but I like the way you presented your opinions. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
Haslam isn't going to interfere. His guys are going to be able to make their decisions.
What we are seeing is accountability. I don't think he liked Chud from the beginning...too soft, but he went with him because Banner and Lombo wanted him....for that softness.
The decision to dump Chud was Haslams. Then in the interview process he saw his top two guys bickering and unable to agree. That opened his eyes and he decided he just needed to punt the two of them. That's how I see it.
Accountability. The new word in Cleveland. Farmer and Pettine are going to be held accountable. I don't think anyone gets canned next year, but Haslam isn't going to be the type of owner who looks at how many more years they have on their contracts before making the decision to move in a different direction if things aren't going well.
I like that. Team after team have shown the ability to show marked improvements after 1-2 seasons yet we continue to be stuck in the mud since 99....15 years.
2014 is a meaningful year for us Browns fans. That is 50 years since we last won the title. FIFTY Friggen years. Yep, we need accountability because that is a stat for losers.
Actually, Haslam liked Chud. According to reports, he had to be talked into firing Chud by Banner, who, essentially, told him that he had several exceptional candidates all lined up and ready to come on board. As the process dragged on, he became less sure that he should have fired Chud. This was a large part of the disconnect between Haslam and banner and Lombardi.
Luckily, Haslam really seemed to like Pettine, and was the final word in hiring him. It has been reported that Banner wanted to wait for Quinn from Seattle, and that Lombardi preferred either McDaniels, (who did call to put his name back into consideration almost immediately after removing it) or Schiano.
I think that was Banner (and maybe Lombardi) who was the driving force behind pushing Chud out. It may have been the final time Banner and Lombardi were a united front. Haslam went along with them, they became disgusted by the way the 2 men couldn't get along at all, and couldn't agree on anything.
There were a couple of articles that covered this very subject, but it is so hard to find particular articles with all of the changes that happened this year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Not to me but to the general theater...still excellent post and it mirrors a lot of my thoughts and fears. Even if I'm positive thought process I still have fears.
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Can you link that report or point me where it was at Ytown? I'm having trouble finding that on the net and haven't come across it here either.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Just for the fact that once the change was made that we started negotiating with Haden an Entire season prior to the current contract expiring was significant to me that these guys get it. When you wait to FA season you lose all leverage and the players will definitely want to see some offers out there even if they want to stay here - its like why not and up their ante.
Is it a bit telling that it's reported that they chose to begin negotiations with Haden but that it hasn't been reported about negotiations with Mack or Ward yet?
Maybe they will get around to it before free agency begins or they're not overly concerned it they walk.
As it happens, tomorrow, teams can begin slapping tags on players. Will either Ward or Mack receive such a tag?
Even though Mack & Ward are slated to become free agents on March 11th at 4pm, the Browns don't have to wait that long to talk with them and sign them. Other teams have to wait until March 8 to begin negotiations and can't execute any agreed upon contract offers until free agency begins at 4pm, March 11.
Does that say something? That they're not yet talking (or that it hasn't been reported) since they are pending free agents.
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I'll have to try and Google it. There were a handful of articles that brought up Haslam's regret at firing Chud.
The reports also said that Haslam "closed the deal" on Pettine, and that Banner really wanted to wait on Quinn.
Anyway, I'll try to Google that up.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Here is the article referenced: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_maj-story-1 Would Rob Chudzinski have been fired if this shakeup had happened before the end of the season? Some insiders have told me that Haslam really liked Chudzinski ("Chud was Haslam's guy,'' said one source) and probably would have given him at least another year. "Those are hard decisions,'' Haslam said Tuesday. "I think we made the right decisions, we’re really excited about coach Pettine.'' Too bad Chudzinski had to lose his dream job in the midst of this upheaval.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Here is the article referenced:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_maj-story-1
Would Rob Chudzinski have been fired if this shakeup had happened before the end of the season? Some insiders have told me that Haslam really liked Chudzinski ("Chud was Haslam's guy,'' said one source) and probably would have given him at least another year. "Those are hard decisions,'' Haslam said Tuesday. "I think we made the right decisions, we’re really excited about coach Pettine.'' Too bad Chudzinski had to lose his dream job in the midst of this upheaval.
Mary Kay? Sorry, but that's hardly something to base reality on. A side note article filler from a singular and questionable source.
I'm not really calling you out on this as you provided a source. If it can be corroborated elsewhere, it might be worth considering, even if the secondary source is as dubious as this one. Maybe Tony Grossi can (or has) scribbled up something similar.
I understand though. It is Browns related and it's from a source and some might give it more validity than I give it.
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Yeah, the main beat reporter from the largest newspaper in Ohio just isn't good enough ...... I understand. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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YTown.........that article didn't actually prove anything. It sounded like more speculation than anything. Haslam's quotes did not give any credence to the claim.
Look...........I get that people need heroes and villains. They have made their choices on who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. They don't want to give the villains any credit for having good traits and they don't want to tarnish the heroes' reputation by assigning any blame to him, so they put it off on the villain.
Again, I understand it........but, that doesn't mean I have to believe in such narrow-minded thinking.
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Yeah, the main beat reporter from the largest newspaper in Ohio just isn't good enough ...... I understand.
Nope. Not that one. She's only got her job because Tony Grossi fired off an unflattering tweet. And, in my view, Grossi isn't all that great but he's better than she is. I see better stuff written on fan websites like this than what she puts out there.
I'm sure that the 'inside sources' only told her, since nobody else wrote about this.
< right back at you >
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Quote:
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Yeah, the main beat reporter from the largest newspaper in Ohio just isn't good enough ...... I understand.
Nope. Not that one. She's only got her job because Tony Grossi fired off an unflattering tweet. And, in my view, Grossi isn't all that great but he's better than she is. I see better stuff written on fan websites like this than what she puts out there.
I'm sure that the 'inside sources' only told her, since nobody else wrote about this.
< right back at you >
You do realize that she was a beat reporter while Grossi was with the paper, right?
Grossi was #1, and Cabot was #2. Now Cabot is #1, and Reed is #2. Like it or not, as beat reporter for the Plain Dealer, she gets access few, if any others can.
I think that people dislike her because she doesn't savage the team when they feel she should. She will sometimes throw softballs at pressers, but I think that she also gets info few others do as a result.She doesn't back people into corners, and she is rewarded with items here and there.
I think that she is right at least as often as other reporters, and probably more often. However, in cases like this, we'll never know for sure. Haslam is never going to say "You know, I like Pettine and all, but if I had it all to do over again, I would have stayed with Chud." That ship has sailed, and all he can do at this point is damage control. Anyone watching his presser after firing Banner and Lombardi can tell that he was being extremely careful to be nice and complimentary to both of them ..... basically saying that they did their jobs too well, and thus had to go. Anyone who truly believes that ..... well ...... I don't know what to tell them.
I remember Grossi and the whole "Cower bought a house in Strongsville", and other similar types of "reports" that turned out to be nothing at all. Reporters do get things wrong ...... but in the end, I think that Mary Kay gets them right as often as anyone.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You do realize that she was a beat reporter while Grossi was with the paper, right?
Yes. I also realize that you should expect more from beat reporters than what she provides.
You get more insight from Cleveland BSPN Radio (WKNR) or CBS Sports Radio (WKRK) than from anything she actually has to say. It was Will Burge from the Bleacher Report (formerly with BSPN Radio Cleveland) that broke the Mike Pettine hiring. Not Mary Kay. Not Tony Grossi. I was listening to WKRK (via the interwebs) when he was on and broke the story.
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Grossi was #1, and Cabot was #2. Now Cabot is #1, and Reed is #2. Like it or not, as beat reporter for the Plain Dealer, she gets access few, if any others can.
And she still can't get anything right.
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but that it hasn't been reported about negotiations with Mack or Ward yet?
Does that say something??? Well it just might say it is falling just the way I laid it out.
Both might even said - WE WANT TO STAY HERE. But I think both are also saying...you know we went all this time without any significant negotiations. Its a month away (FAgency) might as well hold of on your contract offer as we will feel what is out there in terms of a contract...we'll speak to you before signing anything. And possibly they aren't saying that - But I betcha a pretty penny that their AGENTS are saying that. Its what I was talking about regarding Leverage. We waited this long (thanks Banner) we lost the leverage we had now its lets check out the best offers out there for our talents then we'll talk.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Yep, we need accountability because that is a stat for losers.
And who the F holds the DA ACCOUNTABLE?????? ... U and guys like U that think this guy did a good thing MAKE ME SICK ....
You seemed to be THRILLED cause as u say he had the "balls" to fire INCOMPOTENT PEOPLE and he made himself look bad in doing so ..
Well good for U Jimmy .. sorry I didn't realize that FIRING INCOMPOTENT PEOPLE that u knew were in way over there heads and were GOING TO RUIN YOUR FRANCHISE FOR EVEN LONGER THAN THEY ALL READY HAVE TOOK BALLS ......... and that letting them stay on to 'save face" is somehow a SMART OPTION ...
WTF's next guys .. we gonna start rewarding people for putting one foot in front of the other when they walk????? ..
HE FIRED the people that had shown beyond a SHADOW OF A DOUBT THEY HURT THE DA ... they couldn't even get guys to COME INTERVIEW this time around cause of what happened in the last series of interviews and over the course of the year ... I MEAN THESE GUYS TOOK INCOMPETENCE TO AN ENTIRELY NEW LEVEL ..
I have never in my life seen so many coaches FLAT OUT TRUN DOWN INTERVIEWS (that's not even guys that interviewed and then said F OFF C-TOWN ... I am no longer interested in your CIRCUS ... ) .. GUYS ..... the DA basically called his own hire "leftovers" ..... CAUSE MOST OF THE FOLKS WE REALLY WANTED WOULDN'T INTERVIEW BECAUSE OF BANNER/LOMBARDI or the structure the minion DA's set up ...
u guys give him credit ... IMO WHAT WE JUST WITNESSED with the HC interview process made me wonder WHAT TOOK THE DA SO LONG TO PULL THE TRIGGER ..... this coaching search was EMBERASSING AS HELL ...
back to accountability being the "new word" (we've hired and fired more folks in the last decade than anyone YET U ARE CLAIMING ACCOUNTABILTY IS A NEW WORD ..... SORRY PEEN ... the NEW WORD around here would be COMPETENCE ... watch .. as soon as we get competent people around here there will be no need for accountability ....
back to accountability again .... why is he not held accountable??? ... oh ya .. that's right .. he needed his "hand held" and this was a marriage made in the nfl offices .. BRUTAL ...
LETS ALL JUST FORGET THE FACT HE WAS A MINORITY OWNER FOR 4 OR 5 YEARS AND DID NOT NEED HIS HAND HELD ... LETS ALL JUST FORGET THAT IN HIS VERY BRIEF TIME HERE HE HAS PROVEN BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT HES GOING TO DO WHAT HE WANTS ... HE COULD CARE LESS ABOUT PUBLIC OPINION OR WHAT ANYONE THINKS HE SHOULD DO WITH HIS STUFF ..
ya ... ACCOUNTABILITY is the "new word" in c-town ... ..... as long as we DON'T HOLD HASLAM ACCOUNTABLE FOR SQUAT ...
the phrase stats are FOR LOSERS has a place in this thread ... but it has nuttin to do with stats ..
WTF .. I dare u guys to show me a WORSE FIRST YEAR BY ANY OWNER IN ANY SPORT IN HISTORY????????????????????? ....
I'll be waiting .. my guess is a very very long time .. MY GUESS IS I DIDN'T CAST A WIDE ENOUGH NET TO FIND EVEN ONE EXAMPLE ....... and its not cause I didn't cast a wide net .. its because THIS DA did such a bad job NO NET has been built big enough to catch something worse than what he did ....TALK ABOUT A LOW BAR TO JUMP OVER ...... but I will none the less be waiting ..
and BTW ... IMO if he could have a do over ... we'd be w/o banner/Lombardi and Chud and Co. would still be here .. I think the DA got snookered by Banner/Lombardi into firing them ... but then again .. with his temper he may have been the lead DA in firing Chud .. I guess I want to believe my version cause I know in my heart that's the version that gives ME THE MOST HOPE ...
and Peenie .. as far apart as we are on this one ... I think u can agree with this statement ...
HOPE has carried us over the last 20 years .. lets HOPE that WINS finally push HOPE to the back seat .....
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Very good recap tabber. I really don't want to go down your chronological list and discuss them. We've been all over that in the past. But seeing them all in one place, in the order of their appearances, along with the short description you gave is enough to get the gist of why we've been floundering since our return. You're right, every regime since our return has been a mess because of one or more people being power hungry or simply inept at their position. It's said that people get promoted to their level of incompetence. They reach a level where they really shine, but then that next promotion puts them in over their head and they fail. At least with this regime Haslem has seen how the President and the GM work at their respective jobs since they've both been here for a year. He's gotten to know them well both personally and business-wise. So in that regard he's not gambling on them as he would be on two entirely new people. I like Pettine and when I hear Farmer talk about working together he sounds like he'll be a very supportive GM. That is a very necessary part of success. I really hope these two work out well together. I get it that Pettine is Haslem's guy but I don't buy into any idea that he was his first choice at all. I think more to the truth is exactly what Haslem said in the presser, "Mike Pettine was the best coach available". The best one available after everyone else backed out. I think whomever his first choice was was either happy with his current situation or didn't want to work with the Banner/Lombardi combo. It doesn't take a genius to see how unsupportive the FO was toward Chud & Norv and it seems to be a consensus on here that Chud was Banner's guy... in the end. So we ended up with Pettine and may have fallen into manure and come out smelling like a rose. Just because some of the other candidates had popular names and great success with their current teams it doesn't mean they'd be a better coach. I'd think rarely do teams get their first choice. I agree with your homerism take that this may well be the best heiarchy we've had since our return. I know I felt pretty good listening to Haslem's press conference announcing the changes because suddenly everything became clear as opposed to the murkyness of that Banner system. For me, the jury's still out on this new regime but it looks far more appealing. The truth for me is I wish it hadn't come to this. It's a step back in my eyes. I don't mean a step lower, just that last season was basically wasted and the "here we go again" forehead slap I initially got from this was very disappointing. But now that the smoke has cleared a bit I'm fully on board. That's just the way I am. Better to buy in and try to understand what they're trying to accomplish than to pisss & moan and be miserable. So I'll watch what they do now and try to understand their thinking. Even if I disagree I'll still try to understand them rather than putting up a big stink. (but I'm sure I'l complain sometimes too  )
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Very good recap tabber.
I really don't want to go down your chronological list and discuss them. We've been all over that in the past. But seeing them all in one place, in the order of their appearances, along with the short description you gave is enough to get the gist of why we've been floundering since our return.
You're right, every regime since our return has been a mess because of one or more people being power hungry or simply inept at their position. It's said that people get promoted to their level of incompetence. They reach a level where they really shine, but then that next promotion puts them in over their head and they fail.
At least with this regime Haslem has seen how the President and the GM work at their respective jobs since they've both been here for a year. He's gotten to know them well both personally and business-wise. So in that regard he's not gambling on them as he would be on two entirely new people.
I like Pettine and when I hear Farmer talk about working together he sounds like he'll be a very supportive GM. That is a very necessary part of success. I really hope these two work out well together.
I get it that Pettine is Haslem's guy but I don't buy into any idea that he was his first choice at all. I think more to the truth is exactly what Haslem said in the presser, "Mike Pettine was the best coach available". The best one available after everyone else backed out. I think whomever his first choice was was either happy with his current situation or didn't want to work with the Banner/Lombardi combo. It doesn't take a genius to see how unsupportive the FO was toward Chud & Norv and it seems to be a consensus on here that Chud was Banner's guy... in the end.
So we ended up with Pettine and may have fallen into manure and come out smelling like a rose. Just because some of the other candidates had popular names and great success with their current teams it doesn't mean they'd be a better coach. I'd think rarely do teams get their first choice.
I agree with your homerism take that this may well be the best heiarchy we've had since our return. I know I felt pretty good listening to Haslem's press conference announcing the changes because suddenly everything became clear as opposed to the murkyness of that Banner system. For me, the jury's still out on this new regime but it looks far more appealing.
The truth for me is I wish it hadn't come to this. It's a step back in my eyes. I don't mean a step lower, just that last season was basically wasted and the "here we go again" forehead slap I initially got from this was very disappointing. But now that the smoke has cleared a bit I'm fully on board. That's just the way I am. Better to buy in and try to understand what they're trying to accomplish than to pisss & moan and be miserable.
So I'll watch what they do now and try to understand their thinking. Even if I disagree I'll still try to understand them rather than putting up a big stink. (but I'm sure I'l complain sometimes too )
DING DING DING .... WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!
its not about the structure ... its not about who reports to who .... IT HAS BEEN PROVEN U CAN WIN WITH MULTIPLE SET UPS ....
at the end of the day ... its all about HIRING GOOD FOOTBALL PEOPLE and then LEAVING THEM ALONE .... we have FAILED MISERABLY AT HIRING GOOD FOOTBALL PEOPLE ....
the DA controls all this for us .. lets HOPE he GOT LUCKY FOR A 2ND TIME IN A ROW with a Coaching Staff ... and lets HOPE Farmer is who many believe he is ... if he got LUCKY AGAIN we will be in very good shape in a few years as this team has enough talent to be this years Chefs ... if not .. oh well ... lets HOPE he finds the REAL PROBLEM FIRST NEXT TIME AND DOESN'T FIRE THE WRONG GROUP ONCE AGAIN!!!!!
I was going to get to the "structure myth" shortly ... but what u just said about PEOPLE was going to be my main point in that one ..
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but that it hasn't been reported about negotiations with Mack or Ward yet?
Does that say something??? Well it just might say it is falling just the way I laid it out.
Both might even said - WE WANT TO STAY HERE. But I think both are also saying...you know we went all this time without any significant negotiations. Its a month away (FAgency) might as well hold of on your contract offer as we will feel what is out there in terms of a contract...we'll speak to you before signing anything. And possibly they aren't saying that - But I betcha a pretty penny that their AGENTS are saying that. Its what I was talking about regarding Leverage. We waited this long (thanks Banner) we lost the leverage we had now its lets check out the best offers out there for our talents then we'll talk.
jmho
Well, if they both said that they would like to stay here and I think that both are on the record of saying essentially that. I think Ward said so explicitly and Mack in his statement that he would give the Browns right of first refusal. That is, he'll let the Browns make him a counter-offer before he signs with another team. That doesn't exclude the Browns from making offers to him right now.
From what I can tell of Ray Farmer's comments, they aren't in the business of paying money to a player due to outside perceptions of how valuable that player is. They'll give each of them what they consider a fair offer. I'm not sure there is negotiating to be made with them. Haden, with a year left on his existing contract, is something different. Personally, I wouldn't mind letting Haden walk if they had to, but trying to get him under a longer-term deal would be alright. They obviously think he's worth keeping around long-term.
I'm not sure how Banner actually fits into the conversation anymore.
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Banner and Lombardi has had a year to lock down 2 pro bowl players Ward and Mack. He failed!!!! That is how he plays into it! But, looking how dysfunctional the last year has been it is not surprising.
He should have these 2 locked up and spend his time working on getting new talent. Now we have to hope Farmer can undo the damage and get it done in less than 1 month.
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Banner and Lombardi has had a year to lock down 2 pro bowl players Ward and Mack. He failed!!!! That is how he plays into it! But, looking how dysfunctional the last year has been it is not surprising.
He should have these 2 locked up and spend his time working on getting new talent. Now we have to hope Farmer can undo the damage and get it done in less than 1 month.
But neither Banner nor Lombardi are making any of those calls. That's Ray Farmer's and Alec Scheiner's realm now.
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I agree they need to get it done. But, signing these 2 should have been done in the off season of 2013. With free agency less than 1 month away it is gong to be harder for Farmer to get it done.
Do you really think if Ward and Mack sign elsewhere it is Farmers fault?
This situation is another good reason why Banner and Lombardi are no longer running the operation in Cleveland.
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